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Thread 16748835

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Anonymous No.16748835 >>16748871 >>16749601 >>16751998
Field extension from reals to hyperreals.
Given an irrational number 0.d..., where d is variable, can anything be specified about the hyperreal part of that number? This was the only provocative question in the last number representation thread and it deserves a second round of abuse. How would you write it? Just 0.d...;... with an empty part? If so, are irrational hyperreals "shorter" in some sense than rational hyperreals?
Anonymous No.16748871 >>16748873 >>16748922
>>16748835 (OP)
>0.d...
Does that mean 0.ddd...?
The latter equals d/9.

I don't know what
>hyperreals
are.
Anonymous No.16748873 >>16749202
>>16748871
What's 0.ddd...?
Anonymous No.16748922 >>16748927
>>16748871
>I don't know what
>>hyperreals
>are.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperreal_number
Anonymous No.16748927
>>16748922
He knows how to use google lol, he's just a failed high school math teacher taking the piss.
Anonymous No.16748930 >>16748973
Given an irrational number 0.d..., where d is variable, can anything be specified about the hyperreal part of that number? This was the only provocative question in the last number representation thread and it deserves a second round of abuse. How would you write it? Just 0.d...;... with an empty part? If so, are irrational hyperreals "shorter" in some sense than rational hyperreals?
Anonymous No.16748973 >>16748978
>>16748930
There are numbers there, but you can’t say a lot about them
Anonymous No.16748978 >>16749027
>>16748973
Can you say anything about them?
Anonymous No.16749027 >>16749033
>>16748978
Not a lot no, can you say anything about the 10^10^10^10th digit of pi?
Anonymous No.16749033 >>16749895
>>16749027
>Not a lot no
I can't say anything about the 10^10^10^10th digit of pi, even with a spigot algorithm. You've said not a lot twice, as if you can say something but it's not a lot. Can you say something?
Anonymous No.16749202 >>16749245
>>16748873
0.ddd... is the opposite of heterosexual, in 1950s English.
Anonymous No.16749245 >>16749335
>>16749202
Shut up.
Anonymous No.16749335
>>16749245
No, get the fuck off my IP lol. Can anything be said about the hyperreal part of an irrational number?
Anonymous No.16749601 >>16749832
>>16748835 (OP)
Holy fuck its that cubed cat again from that other thread..
Meanwhile here I am trying to convince people mathematics must be based on physical reality.
Anonymous No.16749832 >>16750042
>>16749601
Why though, why are you doing that?
Anonymous No.16749895 >>16749900
>>16749033
If it’s Liouville’s Number, you can day it’s either 0 or 1, and if it’s 0 then there’s a place further down where it’s 1
Anonymous No.16749900 >>16749910
>>16749895
You can say that about the real part. But once you get to the hyperreal part, is it even possible to have a 1 anywhere? And if so, how?
Anonymous No.16749910 >>16749917
>>16749900
Transfer principle since every positive integer i has an integer factorial i!, every positive hyperinteger has a hyperinteger factorial H!, and the place value at H! Is 1.
Anonymous No.16749917 >>16749950
>>16749910
Accepting that, where do you place the first 1 in the new string, how many 0 occur between the first 1 and the second 1 of the new string, and how is the placement determined?
Anonymous No.16749950 >>16749959 >>16749963
>>16749917

There's a 1 at H!, and a 1 at (H+1)!
So (H+1)! - H! - 1 zeroes.
z = (H+1)! - H! - 1
simplify: (H+1)! = H! * (H + 1)
z = H! * (H + 1) - H! - 1
= H! * (H + 1) - H! * 1 - 1
= H! * (H + 1 - 1) - 1
= H! * H - 1

Just like any standard integer:
L=0.110001000000000000000001...
There's a 1 at place 3! = 6, a 1 at 4! = 24,
and 3! * 3 - 1 = 6 * 3 - 1 = 18 - 1 = 17 zeroes between them.
Anonymous No.16749959 >>16749964
>>16749950
If you didn't know, Liouville's number is defined
[math]
L=\sum_{n=1}^{\infty}\frac{n!}{10^n}
[/math]
or, a 1 in in each place for 1!, 2!, 3!... and 0 everywhere else.
Since it's defined in terms of its decimal expansion, you can say something about its behavior at an arbitrarily distant decimal place.
Anonymous No.16749963 >>16749970
>>16749950
So by that model, an irrational number is essentially converted to a rational number in some multiple of H, e.g. 1/pi = 0.31830988...;...31830988...;...31830988...;;;
Anonymous No.16749964
>>16749959
I did, let's assume we both know a sufficient amount of language to talk in it fruitfully.
Anonymous No.16749970 >>16749977
>>16749963
No.
For example, L doesn't repeat.
You wouldn't find "110001" anywhere in the hyperfinite part, because in that part each 1 is separated by a hyperfinite number of zeroes.
Anonymous No.16749977
>>16749970
I get that and agree, I'm asking how would you represent the hyperreal part of 0.110001000000000000000001... If you represent it by compressing an integer space to a hyperinteger space, it becomes a rational number in a hyperinteger base. Or you could just not represent anything at all, in which case irrational numbers are amusingly shorter as hyperreals than rational number are as hyperreals.
Anonymous No.16750042 >>16750048 >>16750058 >>16750155
>>16749832
Well its a long story...
I remember back in junior High School encountering sqrt2 for the first time. I was deeply upset by this. It shocked me to my core. It was at odds with everything I believed math to be: Absolute. Precise. Exact. That there existed some number which could never be calculated in decimal form with absolute precision, derived from something so basic as placing two line segments of equal length at right angles to each other, was a terrible shock. Something was obviously not right here. Something was fundamentally wrong, or if not wrong then incomplete. Of course then came shit like pi etc. I sidelined my doubts and just went with the flow. There were tests to take, assignments to be handed in, exams at the end of the year.
But I still harbored my doubts. But what did I know? I was just a kid. I let it slip, you know, girls, sport, then life, job, etc.
But I pondered this matter occasionally, wishing I had the talent and training to gain deeper insight. Then one day I happened on a math forum and discovered there were a few like me who also had concerns about the fundamental concepts of mathematics. It was a relief to know I was not alone, and that were those far smarter and better educated than me who had also been irked Then I learned that even the ancient Greeks who had done so much to advance geometry had been very concerned by the nature of sqrt2. It really pissed them off.
This lead me to try and examine the nature of mathematics from a variety of approaches what it exactly was and the underpinning fundamental concepts. I was trying to think if there was a better description which did not result in decimal sequences running off to infinity. I tried all sorts of thought experiments.
This shit thrilled me and frustrated me at the same time.
Alas I did not reach any new ground breaking insights. That will no doubt be reserved for some super genius in the future. But it did convince me of one thing...
End of Chapter 1.
Anonymous No.16750048 >>16750410
>>16750042
That all makes sense except for
>fundamental concepts of mathematics
We're talking about whether the hyperreal part of an irrational number can have a representation that isn't de facto rationalized by some hyperinteger. It's a cool thing to talk about but how is it a fundamental concept?
Anonymous No.16750058 >>16750060
>>16750042
Oh, for a better representation of sqrt 2, use continued fractions:
[1; 2, 2, 2, …]
Anonymous No.16750060
>>16750058
Repeating fractions are also cool to talk about. There's even a silver fraction you can look up that extends the golden ratio e.g. But in this thread, we're only talking about whether you can specify anything about the hyperreal part of an irrational number.
Anonymous No.16750155 >>16750410
>>16750042
>It was at odds with everything I believed math to be
but it is, it is you who is inabsolute, inprecise & inexact, and on top of it all you project a lot, so for the love of god, let the math be itself and handle your own issues, for they ain't the math's issues
Anonymous No.16750410
>>16750048
Its not. He is just spamming his garbage. Dont encourage him.
>>16750155
Unfortunately there is always at least one schizo retard in every math thread.
Anonymous No.16751998 >>16752010
>>16748835 (OP)
Given an irrational number 0.d..., where d is variable, can anything be specified about the hyperreal part of that number? This was the only provocative question in the last number representation thread and it deserves a second round of abuse. How would you write it? Just 0.d...;... with an empty part? If so, are irrational hyperreals "shorter" in some sense than rational hyperreals?
Anonymous No.16752010 >>16753443
>>16751998
If you represent the hyperreal part of a number by compressing an integer space to a hyperinteger space, it becomes a rational number in a hyperinteger base. Or you could just not represent anything at all, in which case irrational numbers are amusingly shorter as hyperreals than rational number are as hyperreals.
Anonymous No.16753443
>>16752010
You should stop repeating this nonsense and go back to school.