Thread 16767281

This retarded pop-science myth that Humans were "persistent endurance hunters" is completely wrong, but probably persistent, because it flatters the idea that Humans (could) have vastly superior endurance to any animal. Overweight, out-of-shape people can look at animals, who are never ugly and always look beautiful and in-shape, and feel superior to them.

That is my guess why this myth holds on. It originated, because of the belief that all Humans have shared potential "development stages", so any Hunter-Gatherer Tribe today is comparable to Hunter-Gatherer Tribes of history, so their methods are the exact same. If an African tribe uses persistence-hunting to hunt, then every single European and other Hunter-Gatherer Tribe, if they didn't "unlock" better technology, either did or would have used persistence hunting.

If we fairly applied this ridiculous standard to other Hunter-Gatherer tribes, then we can come to even more absurd conclusions. Like the fact that Humans are actually completely incompetent, when compared with animals, except for the fact that we are able to create and wield fire and used it to completely torch our environment and just wait at the edges of a forest fire we started to ambush any fleeing animals escaping the fire. Exactly like the Aboriginals used to hunt. The narrative we can spin from this is that Humans are the most retarded, self-destructive, weakest, ugliest animal ever spat out through an accident of history and it's only our technology like fire, which makes us able to persist with our unholy life, which by all logic should not be capable of living.

How do you feel about stone throwing ape theory?

>>16767281 (OP)
Nah it spreads the narrative that we are smart. Not sure if it's true. What is your theory

>>16767286
That's not enough to explain why Humans were succesful. You could have very territorial, cowardly species of monkeys, who survive by throwing stones and other shit at any intruding predator, while being busy munching on fruits and other plants the entire day.

The skill to throw stones, which we might classify as an extremely high degree of dexterity and hand-eye coordination, is only really effective, if you combine it with attributes, which were much important and definitive of the Human experience.

>>16767296
You don't need to be smart to do persistence hunting.

>What is your theory
The first Humanoid Apes, who left the safety of the trees to plant their body parts, which would eventually evolve into feet, to hunt on the ground became Apex Predators, because of a combination of:
>their social ability to organize violence
>creative aggression, which paired with
>high dexterity and hand-eye coordination
>resulted in the ability to create tools
>which acted as a mechanical force multiplier with their (already high) strength to become extremely lethal imitations of claws or fangs, but which also could hit prey from a distance

>>16767313
>You don't need to be smart to do persistence hunting.
I thought the biggest argument around persistence hunting other than running was the tracking side requiring the ability to read sign and understand prey behaviour?
Of course sitting alongside a beach and eating shellfish seems a lot easierr

humans can run 40km continuously, nothing else but a dog or a wolf could do that, couple that with the fact that they are tracking an injured animal over terrain that they understand so can anticipate it's move and the process becomes like a 5 day job week routine

>>16767320
and maybe an ostrich

>>16767320
The only proof we have of Humans engaging in persistence hunting are very rare cases of Hunter-Gatherer tribes in Africa engaging in it. Just because Humans could do it, doesn't mean that was their method to actually hunt animals in pre-history. It's like living in caves. Just because Humans could and even did at least visit caves, doesn't mean the living caves was a core part of the Human experience in Hunter-Gatherer tribes.

The myth of the cavemen came about, because of survivorship bias. Caves preserved evidence of Human occupation, so people concluded they primarily lived in caves. Same with persistence hunting. One of the most unsuccesful groups of people today are isolated Hunter-Gatherer groups, because they instantly lose their way of life, if they make contact with civilized Humans. Only a different approach to them stopped that phenomenon relatively recently. So the survivorship bias at work here, which we need to be aware of, is the fact that all contemporary Hunter-Gatherer tribes are extremely unsuccesful in terms of Human evolution. The groups, which engage in persistence hunting, are probably too over-specialized, which relegated them to an evolutionary niche.

>>16767324
consider the assumption that humans started persistent hunting because of trying to keep up with dogs, those that realized that they could fully adopted it, that should narrow down your search criteria

Why are humans able to run ultramarathons?
It seems like a bizarre ability to have.

>>16767327
our gait, legs, sweating, memory, etc

>>16767326
Do you think that on hunting trips the European nobility kept up with their dogs on foot?

>>16767327
It's not healthy to run ultra-marathons. You get health complications and your body starts to deteriorate. Professional athletes, who focus on cardio-intensive sports, also have an abnormal enlargement of the heart.

>>16767332
europeans discovered farming earlier than most, it doesn't mean that cro magnons didn't hunt with dogs, probably also the reason we outcompeted neanderthals

>>16767281 (OP)
All modern anthropology is just Afrocentrism

>>16767281 (OP)
>If we fairly applied this ridiculous standard to other Hunter-Gatherer tribes, then we can come to even more absurd conclusions. Like the fact that Humans are actually completely incompetent, when compared with animals, except for the fact that we are able to create and wield fire and used it to completely torch our environment and just wait at the edges of a forest fire we started to ambush any fleeing animals escaping the fire. Exactly like the Aboriginals used to hunt. The narrative we can spin from this is that Humans are the most retarded, self-destructive, weakest, ugliest animal ever spat out through an accident of history and it's only our technology like fire, which makes us able to persist with our unholy life, which by all logic should not be capable of living.
That's a no, because abbo strategies were appropriate in the australian geology and ecology but would not be in China or Europe.

Much of Australia’s flora, especially Eucalyptus forests and spinifex grasslands, is fire-adapted. Many plants germinate or regrow quickly after low-intensity burns. Aboriginal burning practices took advantage of this: by setting frequent, cool fires, they prevented fuel build-up (avoiding mega-fires) and kept the country in a mosaic of different regrowth stages. This meant animals had predictable pathways of movement between old growth (cover) and fresh shoots (for grazing). Hunters could plan ambushes at these interfaces.

>>16767337
>WE WUZ INVENTORS
Europeans didnt discover farming, they got it from being neighbors with the levant, Mesopotamia and Egypt

>>16767281 (OP)
>Overweight, out-of-shape people can look at animals, who are never ugly and always look beautiful and in-shape, and feel superior to them.
Animals aren't packin a 9mm

>>16767390
Why did they replace farming with goat fucking?

>>16767390
Europe as found a lot fucking sooner than the egyptians. They were still neolithic, everyone was. They discovered farming on their own. Also, there are so many different kinds of animals to tame in europe than north africa.

>>16767416
goat fucking is clearly one of the perks of farming, cant have one without the other. Wild goats are fast, take my word for it

>>16767423
You know what, that's a fair point. I conceed.

>>16767422
The earliest finds is from 21,000 BC in Pissrael
>They discovered farming on their own
Considering the closeness to the levant and the ease of travel, I think it would take a whole lot to truly prove that. Granted, at it's most basic level farming is just taking some edible seeds and dropping them in the ground, so sure "farming" could have been discovered independently. Efficient farming on the other hand most certainly was learned and iterated upon, and that's what matters.

>>16767431
>I think it would take a whole lot to truly prove that.
Have you seen ANY cave paintings from europe? What are on them? Sure as fuck isn't about farming. Meaning they were doing their own thing not in desert land.

>>16767281 (OP)
>hit deer with gun
>suddenly you have better endurance than the deer!
>walk after it
You might need to reexamine your precepts.

>>16767435
That doesnt make sense at all. How does cave paintings prove there was no contact between point a and b 20,000, 15,000 and 10,000 years ago?

>>16767281 (OP)
>throw rock at deer
>deer runs away
>walk near where deer is
>throw rock
>deer runs away
>walk near where deer is
>throw rock
>deer tired
>run after deer and bash its fucking head in with a rock
You don't evem have to get that close for most of this.
The defining characteristic of humans are the shoulders and back musculature, humans (and their ancestors) are the only species that can actually throw rocks at things effectively.

>>16767281 (OP)
Incoherent argument with no purpose, no direction, and no sources, that, instead of approaching anything resembling a point, non-sequiturs into some "wahhh humans are le evil I wish we were all dead" wank. Be the change you wish to see in the world, and kill yourself.

the question isn't even whether they did it, rather how they avoided predators like lions and hyenas from interfering in a process that could take all day--or maybe by then, these predators already feared them enough not to wander into human territories?

>>16767498
By going on the offensive and hunting all predators in their territory.

>>16767489
>throw pointy rock on a stick at deer
>it fucking dies

>>16767498
>What are pack animals
Filthy midwit

>>16767515
wow look at fancy anon over here developing "technology"

>>16767488
It make perfect sense. Humans migrated through north africa before even they didn't have farming.

The cave drawings are the oldest in the world. It's just proof they developed seperately. Some guy isn't going to show up in europe and be like

How hard is this for you to grasp? Shells and Rocks and the like were used well before agriculture. That's why everyone is near water you dumb fuck.

All it takes is one guy eating a fruit, shitting out a tomato and going back to take another shit and he sees a sapling growing out from his old shit to figure out "these are seeds in here, I should try planting them to get more shit tomatoes."

Also, the climate in europe is radically different. They aren't growing shit from africa.

>>16767564
>It make
fucking autocorrect can eat a dick.

>>16767564
>tomatoes
>in Europe
????

>>16767563
The entire point of the thread is that there's no reason to assume all primitive human hunther-gatherers hunted by persistence hunting, a technique that only works well in the vast featureless plains of the African savannah.

>>16767574
maybe he was eating belladonna?
let's not tell him the rest

>>16767574
just an example. You're being a pedantic nigger. Veggies and fruits are bred compared to what we have now. That kind of science is far from a cavemens understanding.

I like how you skipped every other point just to be an umm actually faggot.

>>16767576
but the point is that a thrown spear won't kill a deer instantly, but the actual hunt will play out much the same, except you're throwing spears instead of rocks.

>>16767581
Different terrain makes for different tolerances in hunt which makes for different strategies. In a terrain that's less visible and more difficult to navigate a quicker kill and shorter hunt is going to be more successful than a long chase at a brisk pace.
The original form of human hunting doesn't have to be persistence hunting in the sense of jogging a deer into exhaustion for hours/days as African hunters do. Unless you call any sort of hunt with a chase of any length a persistence hunt, but then what sort of hunting wouldn't be persistence hunting?

>>16767281 (OP)
Mountain niggers are famous for their marathon skills but random cracker mutts can also get down really close to 2 hours. It's weird to pretend there's a big difference.

>>16767390
No, Europeans are (partly) those levant farm inventing humans, not just neighbors. The hunter gathering Europeans were mostly replaced.

>>16767564
Your "proof" that it was discovered independently reads like a mental 5th grader wrote it, that aside shitting out seed discoveries arent that interesting. I'll conclude that shitting out seeds might have been discovered independently or not, but efficient agriculture, which is what matters, was learnt.

>>16767604
>WE WUZ JEWS
fucking kek

If you ever lived around rural people you realize they hunt using traps, retard.

No amount of big elephant and big tiger can fix being scared to fall into a pit with some leaves on top.

Or birds who are trapped by a literal box with a stick and a rope and food.

Ancient architect made a video about ancient humans making corridors with water and food that took prey into closed circular fences they closed the door after enough of those dumb animals entered.

>>16767612
>traps
>>>/lgbt/

>>16767608
The Jewish/left position for the last 70 years was that humans were static and just learnt from their neighbors. The truth is that tech/cultural advantage leads to mass population replacement, genocide of males and rape/marriage of women. ME/levant farmers 5000 years ago were not Jews.

>>16767628
There's never been a Jewish/left position.

>>16767607
God is sound so gay.

>>16767607
God, you sound so gay.

>>16767607
say you're brown without spying you're brown.

>>16767676
>>16767692
Both true. I raped you in the sizzling summer of 1983, remember now?

>>16767694
No thats actually gay dude fuck off. Don't talk about me like that.

>>16767636
In so far as post war academic archaeology isn't Jewish/leftist.

>>16767706
What do you mean by a Jewish/left position? There's never even been a White/left position.

>>16767281 (OP)
>Overweight, out-of-shape people can look at animals, who are never ugly and always look beautiful and in-shape, and feel superior to them.

You shouldn't be telling on yourself like that.

>>16767281 (OP)
You're implying a monkey, before evolving into a hominid, wielded fire and was capable of all that.

>>16767320
aome personal anecdote
a friend group used to run marathons and often take a dog along
they knew they could only do a single marathon distance with the dog and even then the dog was utterly wasted the next day when the humans just were like any other day, maybe tired the evening before as a human actually should be every day

>>16767724
I don't get it.

huskies can do this, painted dogs, dingos too, i think we've just inbred dogs too much and selected against those hunting traits

>>16767724
huskies can do this, painted dogs, dingos too, i think we've just inbred modern dogs too much and selected against those hunting traits

>>16767281 (OP)
>it's wrong
>I won't explain why it's wrong
>I won't offer a better alternative either
Sounds like you're the one who's completely incompetent, even when compared with animals

>>16767281 (OP)
Persistent hunting is retarded because hunting with low guarantee of quick incapacitation is tedious and risky. Stalk a ran away and alerted prey, so big that you can only wound, and carry it all the way back is plain tedious and a lot of shit can go wrong if the wound leave so much life in the large prey to run or fight back in full anger. If one has the stamina, its simply better to stalk and round the prey up in funnelled ground with cover to conceal the approach for a perfect ambush that the prey can barely struggle. Animal that didn't yield will fight back and cause injury, Chasing the prey for hours on end will lead both the hunter and hunted into a different predators ambush. The stamina can be a natural adaptation to the seasonal migration, and daily gathering, and load carrying.
Lastly, hunter-gatherer means a hunter failing to seize the opportunity can come home for guranteed food from the gatherer.

>>16767390
If Europeans didn't discover anything, why did they quickly become superior at everything, and why is their cultural offshoot the originator of impossible dreams like heavier than air flight, which an Arab or African could never have even dreamed of accomplishing? Surely if the near and far east are so superior, they shouldn't be centuries to millennia behind, right?

>>16767892
Europeans deciding to exploit the global south's labor and freedom for profit through untold levels of violence and genocide might be a reason