Thread 16773792

Solar energy seems like a thing only poor, third world countries use for energy.

Why is that?

>>16773792 (OP)
>no its you goyim that are scamming us jews
sure

>>16773792 (OP)
I get free electriciry for 25 years in northern California. In fact, most years sp far, PG&E has paid me back for my excess.
How is that third-world?

>>16773792 (OP)
According to elon the sun produces 666 gorillions of niggawatts a second, surely it is enough to power a few houses

Per joule, solar panels in a good spot are the cheapest source of electricity. Unlike most generators though they produce that in accordance with sunlight - not what is actually being used. So using solar in practice requires clever planning and batteries which may or may not make it more expensive than alternatives

>>16773792 (OP)
>Is Solar Energy A Scam?

No, it's just in development and like any alternative source of energy it's handicapped by fossil fuel people and faggots defending fossil fuel people for free.
Solar "isn't great at the moment", it keeps getting better though. The real issue none of these cucks in your TWITTER SCREENCAP want to talk about is the literal nanosecond solar becomes even *marginally* cheaper and more efficient than any energy source we use right now it'll be fucking over: the country with all the solar knowledge will be fucking every other fossil fuel country in the ass on a daily basis.

Solar is quite possibly the closest we'll ever get to just pulling energy out of thin air. Any time spent trying to make it work will be worth it.

>>16773792 (OP)
Instead of ramping up energy production, we should be making things more energy efficient to reduce consumption. That way it will be easier to meet demands using renewable energy sources like solar.
Fuck wind power though.

>>16774191
Greta sweetie, you should really stick to what you know best, like spreading your legs for Palestinians.
The fact is energy generation is not the problem, its storage. Something you imbeciles go strangely quiet about when the subject of mining comes up.
What you like to ignore, perhaps becasue you are too busy sucking brown cocks, is that fossil fuel is BOTH a fuel AND a BATTERY. Its all about energy density darling.
>ENargEe DenSartEe? But I dont understand anything expect how best to suck brown cocks!
Yes, we know.

>>16773792 (OP)
>That tweet
It's fake, right?

>>16774212
Certainly hope it is fake. Even cocktail napkin math says it's wildly wrong. Still, wouldn't be 100% surprised if the tweet were a real. People at that level, even in private business, often have little understanding of the nuts and bolts of the org they're leading. They're well connected with the big players in the space and their job mainly deals with interacting with them and serving as a policy conduit for the president/board of directors.

>>16774212
>>16774250
This is why AI sucks and AGI is bullshit. Chris Wright is the Secretary of Energy in the US. He's an MIT graduate, and has a degree in mechanical engineering. He was the CEO of a hydraulic fracking company prior to being appointed.

I think he knows a thing or two about energy. It's not 0.21% of earth being covered in solar panels, but actually 500%!

>>16774859
Anyone that ever uses the phrase clean coal unironically should be forced to eat, at gunpoint, a lump of coal.

>>16774203
calm down, Seth

>>16774250
>>16774212
lol you wish
https://x.com/SecretaryWright/status/1962861731174097195

>>16773792 (OP)
>Is Solar Energy A Scam?
No, but it's not the magic bullet either.

>>16774192
>we should be making things more energy efficient to reduce consumption
This desu. It doesn't matter how much generation we add if it's all immediately wasted on useless shit that doesn't succeed even in enriching the grifters that pushed for it.

>>16773792 (OP)
why did you cut out the community note kekistani retard?

>>16774203
Everyone has all kinds of batteries
Couple this with battery tech improving
with stuff like the hydro battery
And you can just use the electricity outright you don't have to store it or for long
It can move all around

I don't think tribalism has much to do with benefiting us
Solar definitely has the capability of a bright future

Also did anyone figure out what hydrocarbons are?
Can you produce them?
Maybe melt down some plastic

Let's utilize all the energy in an optimized fashion as we build the best

>>16774915
Meh. Coal can be made far cleaner than what we've done in the past but yeah, "Clean Coal" does feel somewhat Orwellian. Make the motto "Clean for Coal" and it gets closer to the truth.
>>16774859
I'm open to seeing your math on why it would need to be 500% of the Earth's surface. If it's about storage and transmission, those are valid concerns but the math still needs to be demonstrated, including explanations of why those can never be improved.
As far as the Secretary's background goes, none of that makes him an expert in solar but should give him the ability to make a decent assessment if so inclined. You should ask yourself if a man whose livelihood depended on fracking would have any motives for making less than accurate assessments of technology that could put him in the poorhouse.

>>16774203
Yes, it's annoying when "clean green" energy fanatics ignore the realities of storage and transmission but that doesn't mean that there's no value in those technologies in any context. It just means they're not the solution in every context. Tribalism, FUD, and astroturfing all contribute to muddying the waters so it's difficult to pick good solutions, which usually means a combination of different production methods. Both financial interests and ideological stubbornness are at play.
>that fossil fuel is BOTH a fuel AND a BATTERY.
Just like mining for lithium has its own set of externalities, so does fossil fuel production and delivery. Don't ignore that while calling it out in other technologies.

>>16774203
OK now me peepee is hard

>>16773792 (OP)
The absolute state of american education
lmao

>>16774092
>>16773797
Silicon technology is one of the most polluting technologies on earth to produce and dispose of.

They also deteriorate over time. Usually after about 10 years the mid range ones need to be replaced and the high end ones last around 20 but produce noticeably less power near the end of life.

>>16775849
Your an idiot, all the material required for fossil fuels and biofuels are worse. It's only worse than nuclear power and wind/geotherma/etc which are already extremely clean ways to make energy.

>>16775849
>oh noes, how will business ever adapt?!?
That's why you buy the ones with a 25 year production guarantee, idiot.

>>16775849
>Silicon technology is one of the most polluting technologies on earth to produce and dispose of.
While silicon solar cell production involves energy and chemicals, calling it "one of the most polluting technologies" is misleading. Manufacturing emissions are far lower than fossil fuels over the lifecycle, and recycling efforts are improving. The environmental cost is justified by decades of clean energy generation.

>>16775867
its not even that, just stfu solar panels are great tech we dont more pseudoenvironmentalism fucking over our energy industry

>>16775877
Solar panels *are* great tech; let’s expand them fast. But that doesn’t mean we should ignore manufacturing impacts or waste. Real environmentalism means improving, not ignoring, the full lifecycle. No need to silence critique; it’s how we make clean energy truly clean.

>>16775867
>>16775881
Thank you grok

>>16774203
We could solve storage by making a global power grid of several million volts and just trade solar energy from one side of the globe to the other. Storage isn't the problem, its political will.
It would take cross the straight of Gibraltar between USA and Russia, and trading energy with china, and making the belt and road through the middle east to the Sahara and Europe. Technically feasible, could solve the global energy problem forever, politically impossible, at least until shit really hits the fan and we run out of oil or something.

>>16774859
>>16773792 (OP)

>He was the CEO of a hydraulic fracking company prior to being appointed.

>In 1992, Wright founded Pinnacle Technologies, a company involved in commercial shale gas production through fracking and served as its CEO until 2006.

>Before his appointment, he was the CEO of Liberty Energy, North America's second largest hydraulic fracturing company, and served on the boards of Oklo Inc., a nuclear technology company, and EMX Royalty Corp., a Canadian mineral rights and mining rights royalty payment company.

I'm sure the guy who's made his fortune off of fracking has absolutely zero conflicting or alternative motives influencing his criticism of solar energy and is a completely good faith actor.

>>16775856
You have no idea how solar panels are made.
You also are straw-manning an argument I never made. Feel bad about having the reading competency of a toddler.
>>16775865
>I get a warranty on mine.
Nothing to do with anything I said.
You also have the reading comprehension of a toddler.

>>16775867
>>16775877
The solution to pollution is dilution.

The reason most silicon technologies are made in china and Taiwan is they have significantly lower pollution constraints than the USA.

Pretending silicon manufacture doesn't produce toxic waste as a byproduct as well as obligates massive fossil fuel consumption for material extraction and processing is a bold faced lie.

Silicon manufacture is one of the most toxic process on earth it produces exotic off gasses, uses tons of water that obligates extensive processing (which they bypass by dilution) and has a massive carbon foot print. You retards don't know shit about shit if you think solar is "clean"

>>16775942
Yeah, a lot of industrial processes are fucked. A solar panel once manufactured will produce many more joules of energy over its lifespan than an equivalent mass of any combustible fuel, so the net impact is much lower.

This is not hard to figure out. Are you going to tell me with a straight face that a fossil fuel or wood burning is cleaner?

>>16775939
>Nothing to do with anything I said.
>>16775849
>They also deteriorate over time. Usually after about 10 years the mid range ones need to be replaced and the high end ones last around 20 but produce noticeably less power near the end of life.
My generation capacity is guaranteed for 25 years.

>>16775942
>Pretending silicon manufacture doesn't produce toxic waste as a byproduct as well as obligates massive fossil fuel consumption for material extraction and processing is a bold faced lie.
Probably time to sunset all that massive fossil fuel consumption now that solar and wind are ubiquitous.

>>16773792 (OP)
@grok is this true?

>>16773792 (OP)
Solar is and will always be a retarded meme energy unless you're getting it in space, close to the sun, and transmitting it through beaming.

Nuclear, hydro, and geo are all superior. Wind is even more memeworthy than solar.

>>16775921
>just trade solar energy from one side of the globe to the other
Wow, your grandfather really did a job on you. Fucked your ass so hard that your shit replaced your brains.

>>16775942
>>Silicon manufacture is one of the most toxic process on earth it produces exotic off gasses, uses tons of water that obligates extensive processing (which they bypass by dilution) and has a massive carbon foot print. You retards don't know shit about shit if you think solar is "clean"
And fossil fuel has none of those? Why don't you do a comparison, how much water and gasses are needed for either process to produce the same amount of power?

>>16775942
>The reason most silicon technologies are made in china and Taiwan is they have significantly lower pollution constraints than the USA.
The reason most manufacturing is in China and Taiwan is they have significantly lower pollution and labor constraints than the USA.
>Pretending silicon manufacture doesn't produce toxic waste as a byproduct as well as obligates massive fossil fuel consumption for material extraction and processing is a bold faced lie.
Pretending manufacturing doesn't produce toxic waste as a byproduct as well as obligates massive fossil fuel consumption for material extraction and processing is a bold faced lie.
Kek, nothing you said has anything at all to do specifically with solar cell or wafer/chip manufacturing. Same is true for Titanium golf clubs and MAGA hats.

>>16776154
>Nuclear, hydro, and geo are all superior. Wind is even more memeworthy than solar.
For a central utility, yes. But I can not afford a garage nuke, even if I could legally buy one.
I can however purchase solar panels that will overproduce for my personal needs and provide the surplus to the grid. Solar is the distributed, Libertarian solution; the Bitcoin of energy production. No reason not to mix and match.

What about solar power to generate heat to make steam to power steam engines and steam turbines?

>>16776172
I can see geo being affordable and efficient at a homeowner or commercial business owner level where it is well-suited. I've seen public schools using geo systems very effectively on the east coast.
The Dogecoin of the energy production matrix, maybe?

>>16776175
Aye, matey. And then we take your steamboat riverwhaling, for the coal-boring drills all run on whale oil, and we need that coal for good American jobs, for immigrants.

>>16776180
Steam power is still the highest torque to weight ratio on the planet.

>>16776185
And we do so need that coal.
For the immigrants.

>>16776139
>What is an efficiency curve
I don't care at all about your warranty grandpa, I'm talking about material science and you are bloviating about a contract.

>>16776143
It takes massive amounts of fossil fuel to manufacture solar panels and that process creates tons of C02. I can't tell if you're reading impaired or just retarded.

>>16776169
>Talking about the waste byproducts of solar manufacturing has nothing to do with solar panel manufacturing

You're fucking retarded. Silicon production is one of the most toxic manufacturing (and polluting) process ever created by man. It literally combines exotic metals using exotic gasses and requires tons of water. The water is to dilute much of the waste and the rest is either pumped into the air, the rivers, or buried. Which, again, is why they do it in India or china.

Why do you think ALL domestic chip manufactures are next to massive bodies of flowing water? The solution to pollution is dilution. If they co-locate near a big fucking river they can keep their PPM below the (((EPA))) requirements... but most of it is done in the third world.

>>16776360
>What is an efficiency curve
What is a profitable small business?
I am sorry that your material sciences theory courses taught you that economics wasn't part of engineering.
>It takes massive amounts of fossil fuel to manufacture solar panels and that process creates tons of C02.
Second time you have made this vacuous statement. Either stop using weasel words and post specific comparisons with other energy production industries or stfu.

>>16776363
Talking about any one industries waste product in isolation when you are unwilling to produce specifics across all manufacturing is pointless. Put up or shut up.

>>16776363
>blah, blah, hyperbole, blah
>i have seen the waste-sands of horror in the bangladeshi gold mills
He typed using his pocket Internet and micropenis stylus.

The problem is that all of our infrastructure is based on oil and gas

The equivalent of all human energy consumption can be powered by covering an area the size of Spain with solar panels. So he's off by three orders of magnitude. Doesn't mean it's practical though obviously.

>>16776753
What makes it impractical. Have you looked how much sunny wasteland there is in the US West? The US alone has more urban area than the area of Spain. It's not a cosmic scale project with unattainable scope.
The only way to stop solar is to deny permits. Otherwise the market forces make it inexorable.

>put solar panels near residences and on roofs
>put giant batteries near homes
>provide most if not all of the power throughout the day if the location has sunny climate
>have a conventional power plant on the grid just in case
What would prevent this from not working? We have batteries good enough to power cars for hundreds of miles, why not homes?

>>16774191
>it's fossil fuels fault that REE mining pollutes the fuck out of ground water

>>16777257
>What would prevent this from not working?
>if the location has sunny climate
Not everywhere has a sunny climate year around.

>>16773792 (OP)
>>16774250
>>16775137
>He earned a bachelor's degree in mechanical engineering and a master's degree in electrical engineering at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT). He was a graduate student in electrical engineering at the University of California, Berkeley, and at MIT.
So he KNOWS his statement is bullshit. He just doesn't care. He sold out, likely due to this >>16775922.
That's worse than someone who's just dumb. He is selling us out, and all for a meager """fortune""" of ~170 million.

>>16776401
>I get a discount for solar therefore silicon isn't toxic to produce
thanks grampus, very insightful of you
>>16776402
>How dare I talk about solar waste byproducts in a solar thread
LOL

Neither of you retards have ANY idea how solar panels work muchless how they are made. You're using your ignorance as an argument and it amazes me to no end.

>>16776446
Why are you so mad?

>>16775849
>it's not perfect, so let's not use it
Solar could help millions of homes become independent of an aging power grid right now. The limiting factor is our antiquated battery technology.

>>16777257
>Strip mining and open field evaporation ponds of toxic reduction ponds and factories pumping out toxic metals to produce limited life technology to solve a problem created by the people price fixing energy so they can sell you batteries and solar panels

I don't hate solar, I hate retards that pretend the technology magically appears while ignoring the impact of resource collection; production waste and material processing.

Nevermind that most public hydro plants NEVER run at full generative capacity because it would drip the price of energy too low for private power providers to compete with.

I also love how the cult of C02 always ignores trash incineration power.

No but the entire administration is a scam.

>>16773792 (OP)
>Why is that?
the narrative? because energy is a global currency and the ones who own and sell it have issues with losing control over it. how is this even a discussion in 2025?

>>16777485
I'm not anti solar. I'm tired of people pretending silicon isn't shit. I'm specifically against silicon solar, NOT solar and I am specifically calling out people that thing solar is "clean" when it isn't at all. It's not horrible but it's way shittier than solar fags pretend it is.

>>16773792 (OP)
Solar works well at small scale in certain areas, e.g. a town of <=1000 people in Australia could power itself pretty cost-effectively with solar + battery.
The problem comes when you want to power larger cities which nuclear and hydro being the only viable "green" solutions.
SMR nuclear + solar on a decrantrzlied grid is the most logical approach that lines up well with the free market IF gov regulation is efficient.

>>16777486
You keep claiming that silicon is absolutely the worst toxic material that has ever been refined, where do you get that information? Please show us a comparison of pollution impact of producing 1 solar panel and using it for 10 years, versus the pollution impact of mining, refining, and transporting the crude oil needed to provide the same amount of power for 10 years.

NO SOLAR

NO WIND

NO (((GREEN))) ENERGY

>>16773797
It's government subsidized, moron. Electric companies hate having to deal with energy being pumped back into the grid but the gov pays them to deal with it

>>16778024
>utilities are publically subsidized
You gonna flip out when you learn about the USPS.

>>16777489
literal free energy with minimal hardware complexity to capture it.

>>16777510
>Silicon is the worst toxic material that has ever been refined

What I acutally said, you disingenuous piece of garbage, is:
"I hate retards that pretend the technology magically appears while ignoring the impact of resource collection; production waste and material processing."

You solar shills are unquestionably the most dishonest retards to ever gain access to the internet.

You don't understand my position and have the reading comprehension of a toddler so I'm not sure explaining anything will matter.

>>16778024
energy is more of a political issue than a scientific or engineering one. I never really understood how normies just suppose they'd be allowed access to cheap or even free energy, without paying for it somehow. mfs trying to get control over water and they would over air as well if possible. the fight is against human greed, more than it is against the environment conditions. people will have to eventually fight for access to energy no matter how free it becomes. it's something they need thus it will be used against them

>>16778078
>minimal hardware complexity
>Just magically appears
>totally free
You're so fucking retarded it's unreal

This is why I hate solar shills and why they are worthy of disdain.

>>16778024
>oil industry government subsidies where?

>>16778084
>free energy is when I magically collect it and put it in my phone
you are trying to set some unrealistic standards at this point. fundamentally all energy is free, by definition of the state of our reality. fossil? sun energy packet into that form, you dindu anything for it. nuclear? happened by itself in neutron stars merger. thermal? gravity interactions and shit (and some nuclear).
free in this context fundamentally means cheap to collect, the cheaper it is the more "free" we think it is. everything is free in this universe, as long as you can take it
>Just magically appears
not magically but it does appear. you didn't do anything for it. no human did anything for it. nobody owns it, it's for the taking for everyone that can take it. simple as.

>>16778084
>coal, oil, and natural gas literally sit in the ground waiting for you
>it is literally free energy forever
>no downside
>no negative consequences
>free, safe, clean energy; forever

>>16778081
No, you responded to me that "retards" ignore the environmental impact of solar energy, I never stated that solar energy has 0 environmental impact. I merely asked a question on how feasible a scenario is, take your strawman elsewhere.
Furthermore, the anti-solar side of this thread has stated, verbatim
>You're fucking retarded. Silicon production is one of the most toxic manufacturing (and polluting) process ever created by man.
>one of the most toxic manufacturing (and polluting) process ever created by man.
I don't know if that is you, but there has been no clarification on the comparative environmental impact of various sources of energy. News flash: literally every energy source will have environmental downsides. The trash burning you advocated will release a lot of toxic fumes if the trash contains plastic (trash always contains shitload of plastic). You're not making a convincing argument that solar is particularly bad among all the choices.

>>16778110
>seals eat tar, they love it
>period
>to say otherwise is to deny obvious fact

>>16778084
>wah, this dude has a photon to electron converter on his roof
>i best go roll coal in front of his house and kids

>>16778081
Your continued insistence in singling out the solar and silicon industries and refusal to examine other industries points directly to your closed mind and hypocrisy.
You are worse than an LLM.
You are a parrot.

Western engineers hate every energy production method that doesn't involve boiling water.
Prove me wrong.

>>16778354
Tea Built The Empire

>>16773792 (OP)
Why is it always political figures on one side and scientists on the other side?
It's backwards how scientists are painted as corrupt establishment shills... by politicians and literal shills.

>>16777508
>Solar works well at small scale in certain areas, e.g. a town of <=1000 people in Australia
Friend of mine installed 15kW solar on his roof in a more than one million city at 53°North. Covers all his energy needs (incl. his Tesla) from April til October (and would be working without any other battery when we have a fair concept like virtual battery or so). Costs of an kWh (is there a imperial metric for?) over here is around 0.40€ he earns 0,02 for producing.