Thread 16809821

Defeating entropy, not just death

The Boltzmann brain problem is one of the bigger problems in physics. The core issue, as I understand it, is as follows: entropy goes up over time. This means that things get less and less orderly over time. The universe will only have a finite period of order, before entering an infinitely long period of disorder. (1)

During this period of disorder, sometimes brains will randomly fizz into existence. These brains will sometimes have thoughts—sometimes even memories—but will disappear quickly. Brief note of terminology: these brains that randomly fluctuate into existence in outer space are called Boltzmann brains. Bad news: if there’s only a finite period of initial stability, before an infinite period of disorder, then there will be vastly more Boltzmann brains than normal brains.

>>16809821 (OP)
This is a problem. If there are vastly more Boltzmann brains than normal brains, then you should think you are probably a Boltzmann brain. You should think, in other words, that your brain randomly fizzed into existence and you are about to die. You should expect your vision to begin blacking out as you freeze in some dark celestial void. But that’s not what you observe (I assume). And if you are a Boltzmann brain randomly appearing from a chemical fluke, you have no reason to trust your reasoning—for this reason, reason can never tell you that you’re a Boltzmann brain.

The core puzzle is that each of the following seems plausible:

You’re probably not a Boltzmann brain.

There are vastly more Boltzmann brains than non-Boltzmann brains.

If there are vastly more Boltzmann brains than non-Boltzmann brains, then you probably are a Boltzmann brain.

1 is self-evident and 2 is a pretty straightforward point of probability. So the thing to give up is 3. But 3 seems implied by our best theory of physics, on which entropy continually goes up.

Now, I won’t claim that there are no other good solutions to the problem. I don’t know any physics. My sense is that there isn’t an agreed upon solution and this is a pretty serious problem, but due to my ignorance, I cannot definitively comment on the plausibility of a physics-based solution.

Instead, let me propose a speculative theological solution open to Christians: perhaps 3 is false because the second coming will occur before Boltzmann brains appear.

The second coming is depicted in the New Testament. It’s when Jesus returns, judges the living and the dead, and all that jazz. But presumably after the second coming, the universe will be very different. It won’t just keep spitting out Boltzmann brains. Matthew 24 says:

>>16809821 (OP)
Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Revelation 6:12–14:

“The sun became black as sackcloth… the whole moon became like blood… the sky vanished like a scroll that is being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.”

Revelation 21:1:

“Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more.”

That doesn’t sound like a post heat death world where particles randomly bop around, occasionally producing brains. So if the second coming happens, then there won’t be Boltzmann brains after it. This allows us to resist the conclusion that Boltzmann brains will outnumber real brains. If the universe is radically transformed before Boltzmann brains appear, then there won’t be loads of Boltzmann brains.

It would be one thing if this was some extra theological claim that Christians had to believe in. If so, then this would be a problem because you pay a cost when you add extra bits to your theory to explain data. But this is already part of the Christians theory. They already think the second coming is going to happen. This gives them a nice free solution to the Boltzmann brain problem.

>>16809825
This solution isn’t just for Christians. Muslims and Jews believe in a day of judgment also. So maybe that will stop Boltzmann brains from proliferating too!

Admittedly, this won’t solve the whole problem. Some multiverse models imply that there are more Boltzmann brains than normal brains because most of the multiverse is very high entropy. These will still face problems even if they think the second coming happens before low entropy universes devolve to high entropy universes—their problems come mostly from all the universes that start in a high entropy state, rather than from the low entropy universes devolving into a high entropy state. But still, a second coming makes it a lot easier to solve the problem.

It’s rare that theology gives good solutions to scientific problems. But if the scientific problem arises from forecasting the future history of the universe, and it’s already part of your theology that the future won’t be as the scientists pressing the problem guess, then that’s a nice upshot of your theory. It means your theory avoids the problem. The major religions, therefore, have a nice way to avoid the Boltzmann brain problem.

1
Occasionally, during this period of disorder, order will randomly form, but the basic point remains: order is rare, disorder is common.

>>16809827
https://benthams.substack.com/p/the-second-coming-as-a-solution-to

>>16809823
There are much simpler solutions to the problem
this "theory" than this.
The Bolzmann problem is just a reductio ad absurdum argument to disprove heat death.

But heat death happens only under 1 cosmological theory. The Big Bang -> Eternal Heat death theory.
The majority believes this to be true but the majority is often wrong. Especially with so little data.

There are 2 more theories that are quite popular and likely.

The first one is the multiverse theory.
Our universe is just one of many.
Think of a super universe that has infinite Big Bangs seeding galaxies were entropy gets too low.
To me this is the most likely theory.

The 3rd one is the Big Crunch theory.
Big Bang -> Expand -> Shrink -> Collapse -> Big Bang again -> ad infinitum

>>16809842
so I'm alive forever???

>>16809843
no you are thinking of quantum immortality nonsense
a multiverse does not necessarily imply this

>>16809846
Idk

boltzman brains are a dumb fucking idea
assumming the heat death will happen the probability of random matter particles assembling into a system that even briefly contains conciousness/memories has to be so close to zero it may as well be zero
and when you move forward to matterless dead radiation filled state of the universe I assume it becomes literally impossible for such system to arise

uhhhhhhhhh
i thought heat death meant stuff would stop happening. how can brains form if there are no new compounds forming or if the universe becomes so sparse and atoms so cold they never meet each other again. so even with infinite time, no brains would form.

>>16811244
None of that prohibits quantum fluctuations. Infinite time guarantees such structures would form

>>16811239
Probability doesn't matter when you have infinite time

>>16811279
infinities dont exist

>>16811284
Actual infinites but not potential infinites so the problem remains

>>16811287
boltzman brain is literally same level of ridiculousness as rokos basilisk
the fact that technically theres no laws of physics explicitly preventing it from happening doesnt mean it makes any sense to assume that it can

>>16811295
Roko's basilisk relies on certain least universal assumptions about how consciousness works in regards to the idea that it can actually torment people. Boltzmann brains have no such clear proposition they rely on, except for materialism. You haven't given a clear reason for their impossibility

>>16809821 (OP)
I didn't read the rest of your posts because you started with an incorrect premise, you assumed an increase in entropy also increases quantum fluctuations which is necessary for boltzman brains to be created, but this isn't the case.

>>16809821 (OP)
If you then flip it to the gnosticism you are on the money

>>16811343
Its not necessary but exceedingly more likely

>>16809821 (OP)
You misunderstood the Boltzmann brain problem. YOU are a Boltzmann brain. I am a Boltzmann brain. Everyone is a Boltzmann brain.

>>16809821 (OP)
nihilist getting outta hand.