Thread 16830683

Replace material with real. Is it real? Then there’s something there to it. That’s material. To say something isn’t material is to say something isn’t real.

your art betrays the emotional effect of your theory
check your premises

>>16830683 (OP)
Agreed. That's why I think stuff like supernatural makes no logical sense, if something supernatural existed, then it is natural.

However these words are useful because they can be used to mean something that is outside the realm of known physics.

>>16830683 (OP)
but fake stuff is real in a way. this just gets into my illusion autism.

this might work for your witch tok but I need to think about my autism.

also does this mean that mater as a term is wrong , you could at the very least create a scientific framework that has something that isn't matter right?

even if its a nockoff of matter and has most of its rules , if it lacks an important one , then its not matter.

I feel like you are playing world games , but I am currently to drunk to save you , so god save us all.

>>16831013
The supernatural is just a proxy or stand-in for “I don’t fucking know”. It’s the same with religion and hocus pocus. Ignorance is a form of art. Highly dangerous art.

>>16830683 (OP)
>>16831013
Not quite, Anons. Think about abstract concepts like Honor or Friendship.
We can deduce some material facets of them (oxytocin spikes in people that enjoy each other's company), but we can't capture the entire concept in the purely Material sphere.
Yet they're still definitely Real, as they still impact the ways people move through the world.

Materialism has never been all-encompassing and it was never meant to be. Anyone trying to tell you otherwise is either a retard or a grifter.

>>16831013
The literal meaning of the word makes no sense, but it works ok in a family resemblance way. When people say that, I know they mean ghosts and angels and gods, not trees and stones.

>>16831484
>>16831494
“That ain’t natural” is an opinion. The supernatural, or the unnatural, has always been an opinion. Homosexual is still unnatural to many Christians. They won’t call it supernatural but unnatural is more or less the same meaning—that it’s not natural.

>>16831507
With meaning as use unnatural and supernatural are very different.

>>16831510
No, they are not. Either something is natural or it isn’t.

>>16831010
*affect

>>16831624
Noone says God is unnatural and noone says gay sex is supernatural.

>>16831624
It is the nature of all life to build. Bird nest, termite mound, yurt, same same.
Building and construction are natural.

>>16831632
You are having the wrong gay sex, bro.

>>16831624
Everything is natural or else it doesn't exist. In common language though unnatural = against nature, so manmade stuff counts as unnatural even though logically we are part of nature. Supernatural= unexplainable by nature, so shit like ghosts, which based on all evidence don't exist

>>16831632
The Christians in the past have used words like “supernatural” or “preternatural” or “unnatural” to describe God in the past. “He’s beyond nature”. It’s just silly.
>>16831635
What? I’m not arguing about the artificial here. The artificial would be the closest thing you could argue as being unnatural and yet you can use as easily argue it’s completely natural for all the things you mentioned. A termite mound is artificial. A bird’s nest is artificial.

>>16831645
>Everything is natural or else it doesn't exist
Yes. This is just basic logic. Anything that is “unnatural” or “supernatural” is just a point of view. A position of unfamiliarity. No different from religion or magic. Proxy logic. A stand-in. A contrast.
>In common language though unnatural = against nature, so manmade stuff counts as unnatural even though logically we are part of nature.
Yes. Hence: “The artificial would be the closest thing you could argue as being unnatural and yet you can use as easily argue it’s completely natural”.

But at the end of the day nature is just reality and reality is anything that’s real.

You can just* as easily argue it’s completely natural

Christians arguing against materialism are arguing against God’s own existence.

OP is right and you can only openly mald.

>>16831667
>667
Phew.

>>16831647
>mud is unnatural
>twigs are unnatural
I think you just surrendered.
The line you think you keep crossing exists solely in your head.

>>16831670
>667
Dude's been peeping across the street for sure.

>>16831672
Nowhere did I claim mud or sticks are unnatural. Human infrastructure is natural despite all the pollution. Nature is nature.

Because for a lot of idiots the artificial is an unnatural abomination.

>Because for a lot of idiots the artificial is an unnatural abomination.
I’d argue that whether or not something is ‘unnaturally’ abhorrent depends on how we humans go about it. But this just goes all the way back to >>16831507 where it is an admission of opinion. “I don’t like it, therefore bad!”. Authors like Tolkien had considered war and industry to be black magic, or unnatural, just from his time serving in the world war, for its ability to ruin nature and beauty in the world. But he did not pretend that there isn’t a good side to this, which is what his elves represent. We could be making more beautiful things in tune with nature. We’re focusing on hideous industry, not nature. We abuse nature. But it’s still nature.

>>16831683
>dude machines le bad
Tolkien was pure reddit

>>16831690
…That’s not at all what he said. He said the abuses of machinery are akin to the abuses of sorcery. Abusing the world to dominate and subjugate. The elves use it too, in the form of artistic displays. Art is inseparable from artifice. It’s in the name. The black machines of Mordor are a dark side of this — they’re horrific to behold. It isn’t inspiring enchantment in a good way. It is very much a case of sufficiently advanced art/artifice is indistinguishable from magic. The elves don’t see their arts and crafts as magic. They don’t even see themselves as magical beings. The elves (and men and hobbits) look to the wizard Gandalf the same way men and hobbits look to the elves. Gandalf isn’t a wizard in Valinor. It’s a station. He’s a sage. He put on the pointy hat. He’s like Odin. His role is to be the humble guide. A higher being sent down by higher powers. There’s a lot of Prime Directive parallels in LotR.

>>16831698
>dude it’s actually science fiction not fantasy
No fuck off

>>16830683 (OP)
>>16831013
>>16831507
>>16831667
what even is matter under this understanding.

and more importanly what even is fictional under this understanding.

>>16831484
That is nonsense, you most certainly can deduce both of those things completely because they don't exist independently from organisms. They are simply evolutionary mechanisms regarding cooperation. By "abstract" you just mean complex, and just because you might not be able to fully measure something right now doesn't mean it can't be in the future. I think you need better examples.

The concept of something being "unnatural" is usually just synonymous with it being dysgenic. In other contexts, supernatural would be the correct descriptor.

>>16832324
Matter — is it anything with mass — or anything that matters?

>>16832390
Which is just energy. Sweet, sweet potential energy.

Even space is a thing, or a fabric that we’re embedded in, and Einstein came dangerously close to believing in a variant of aether.

>>16830683 (OP)
yes

>>16830683 (OP)
Nothing material is real.

Light?

>>16834141
Even massless particles like photons are real. Present.

Lol

>>16831484
>We can deduce some material facets of them (oxytocin spikes in people that enjoy each other's company), but we can't capture the entire concept in the purely Material sphere.
Yes we can. It all happens in the brain. Is the brain real?

Listen, thoughts are linked to energy and the physical activity of the brain, so there is an infinitesimally small, immeasurable amount of mass associated with the energy and molecules involved in the electrochemical process of thinking.

Even thoughts are material.

>>16831484
Your idea of materialism is ass by the way. You deeply want there to be something a lot more special.