Which rpg has the best endgame?

>>95822752 (OP)
ACKS

>>95822752 (OP)
When it comes to TTRPG. Only a handful even bother doing anything with their "endgame" levels. ACKS is the biggest one when it comes to High level and endgame play. Hell, ACKS is the posterboy for endgame play.

>>95822752 (OP)
Define endgame? Like... is it the end of the plot? Is it just a certain kind of power level? Relative to what? Relative to where the story started? Relative to the monsters you're fighting?

You need to actually talk about what you mean before any meaningful answer can be constructed.

>>95822824
Nobody likes you.

>>95822824
Storygames suck donkey dick.

>>95822782
>a game exclusively for homosexuals
Not that kind of end game.

>>95822824
If you have no idea what we're talking about you are incapable of going meaningful answers, so you can fuck right by off please and thank you

>>95822824
I interpreted OP's question as "Which RPG is the most enjoyable at higher/highest levels?"

>>95822752 (OP)
There are probably better ones out there, but in my experience it's been LANCER. You max out any mech type by the game's equivalent of level 3 and beyond that you have to start looking at all the other options, so getting stronger is a matter of cherry-picking parts from different manufacturers to slap onto your mech as the game goes on.

I'd say it's got the best endgame because the system doesn't hand you a character progression track, so by the endgame you end up with a party of really creative frankensteined mechs that are hand-tailored by each player to pull off rube goldberg ability interactions the vanilla mechs never could. It gives the feel of building out those bullshit D&D 3.5 characters that pull features from splatbooks that were written by different authors and never meant to interact, except it's intended and necessary to keep up with the equally bullshit difficulty curve of the enemies you fight.
Half of the fun is digging around in the SRD between sessions and discovering new interactions to surprise the table with though, so if you don't have my brand of 'tism or you're a giant bitch that looks up character build guides, this isn't going to be for you.

>>95822782
This unironically. I'd say it also has the best mid-game because when my 5th level players just one day asked a logical question a lot of people ask in D&D and its derivatives: "hey, can't we just hire 50 bowmen instead of dealing with the manticores all by ourselves?" they could, and they did, and the battle was incredibly fast with zero handwaving all by the book (rip half of the archers). Would seriously recommend mass combat rules even if you don't care about domain management.

>>95830609
>players would rather let NPCs play the game because it would be a chore to do it themselves

>>95830609
Most settings have logical reasons why adventurers are needed and you can't just throw an army at a problem. Most people not willing to gamble with 50/50 odds for survival just for some gold is one of the big ones.
I think you found some "it sounds logical because im not very smart" logic. Hope the whole system isn't built on that.

>>95822824
Those first 3 replies just illustrate perfectly how dead and how full of braindead bots this place is, these days. It's a nonsense question with no follow up and the mere request for clarification or legitimate engagement with the topic OP started with is met with incoherent seething from nogames subhumans.

>>95822752 (OP)
>in a levelfag game, endgame is the point when the characters that started as common adventurers become gods
Who cares

>>95822752 (OP)
Marrying the baker's slightly overweight red-haired daughter isn't tied to any particular RPG.

>>95830730
Yeah, seeing these stories always makes me understand why even a shit game like 5e remains the most popular ttrpg: playing as your super special Mary Sue is more appealing to the average person than this mix of excel sheets and "totally not a slave owner"

>>95830730
>>95831823
I know ACKS causes uncontrollable seething, but most people on /tg/ admit that they don't like combat and would prefer to skip it.
So I don't see how that example is any different.

>>95830730
Players play mass combat like a mini-wargame and control their units. But you know that already and just want to shit on the system because Reddit told you the creator voted for Trump or some retarded shit like that, don't you?

>>95830836
At least you're not an overtly hostile retard like the previous guy. You can read the system books and find out for yourself if you're interested in B/X-adjacent stuff, it's in da archive.

>>95830596
Meh, difficulty scaling is way too video-gamey. And Lancer wears it on its sleeve and basically tell you to up the tier of enemies when players reach levels 3/6/9. I'm not going to insult you for liking it, but I really want to.

>>95832046
People don't like to skip good combat. ACKS combat is notoriously bad and slow. Rolling initiative every round, few meaningful decisions but lots of book keeping, it's no surprise players want to figure out ways to avoid it as much as possible.

"Endgame" is a very modern videogame psyop to sell dlcs and xpacs and thus I reject the broad implication that rpgs must have "endgame", or that it can be rated on a qualifying model, when it inherently devalues the original product.
Like saying "what's the best animal diarrhea as pizza topping"

3.5 if everyone is a full spellcaster.

>>95822752 (OP)
Pendragon

>>95832104
Neither of them, bu the point isn't "it's okay if you want to get into B/X". The point is that neither B/X nor OSR stuff are particularly good games on their own, yet puff themselves as some kind of "TRVE GAME" to somehow prop up their lacking content and/or being paid opies of free games. Which makes them dishonest at best, obnoxious on average

>>95830944
Welcome to /tg/! You must be new here.

It's not a nonsense question. Endgame is a common term which means 'the final stages of a game'. In this context, OP is asking about games that have the best 'high level' play.

>>95836537
You're a dumbass. Endgame as a concept (In TTRPG space) has existed since the 80s. Dungeon Master Option: High-Level Campaigns came out literally thirty fucking years ago to try and solve 2e's endgame issues.

>>95832957
>People don't like to skip good combat
People on /tg/ go as far as to say there's no RPG with good combat, however, so I find you specifying ACKS is kinda sus. Not to mention it's literally just old D&D combat.

>>95822752 (OP)
Morrowind. Non-vidya? I have never played a campaign long enough to epic levels/end game. Though once for a one shit just to see what it was like me and my friends in highschool made some level fifteen characters for 3.5 and they were all mostly bitching about how my friends sorcerer felt way too OP. He was a pretty hard meta gamer though.

>>95843105
It's old d&d combat except every turn is prolonged by extra rolls.

>>95843035
>literal bot post

>>95830944
It's all so tiresome

>>95845279
>say something stupid
>get proven wrong
>G-GUYS IT'S AI!!! I'M NOT WRONG YOU ARE BOT

>>95848069
>respond to a post in a manner resembling a bot
>get called a bot
>imagine the caller seething about it

>>95848079
Keep coping.

>>95832046
>Game is so great, people would rather not play it at all
Really makes you think

>>95830836
If someone is paying a large price to deal with the manticores it stands to reason that they are a problem for the local people. The local people, with proper encouragement and leadership, could definitely marshal a force to help.

>>95830944
>walk into a coding club
>someone asks the group "what do you think of python?"
>you ask "what do you mean by python? the line of firearms? the snake? python of aenus, the student of plato?"
>get called a nigger because everyone knows the OP is asking about the most common usage of the term among the group
>"Wow you guys are braindead."

>>95850612
Python is the "endgame" of coding now? I'd tell you to try harder, but you're a nogames, so it's perfectly understandable that you can't make an analogy that makes any fucking sense to defend this retarded shitspam thread.

>>95830609
>"hey, can't we just hire 50 bowmen instead of dealing with the manticores all by ourselves?"
that's just your playing telling you that your game fucking sucks.
And no, I'm not referring to ACKS (haven't played it) but to your campaign specifically.

>>95850641
You're a retard and unable to understand context clues.

>>95850676
I already told you that you don't have to try harder. My expectations are nonexistent for you, faggot.

>>95850653
Nice projection. If that's what you read from it, go see a therapist.

>>95850641
NTA, but the analogy makes perfect sense. Endgame is super common terminology that anyone in the TRPG space gets. Just like how Python in a coding space would be understood as the coding language and not the snake.
But since you're a newfag tourist (or just retarded), you didn't get it and got rightfully made fun of.

>>95850768
Mate you read the quality of his reply, he's doing it for (You)s and he's actually doing a pretty good job of it, reminds me of the good ol' days.

>>95822824
Endgame's super common terminology

It's a system-agnostic way of describing high-level games. After a certain point, most TTRPGs with progression get to a point where challenges tend to fall apart, and the math just doesn't hold up.

A lot of the games I like have to shift to a completely different style of play, or take a lot of compensation on the GM's part. For example, Wild Talents is nearly as bad as D&D3.pf as far as endgame goes, since high level characters end up with so many gimmicks or abilities that they're basically indestructible.

Traveller isn't bad, but that's more because characters old enough to get strong end up needing to blow a lot of their cash on anagathics. But I'd guess games that have less or slower progression have better endgames, because they tend to have tighter design spaces.

>>95850641
>>95830944
is the same poster as >>95840104 in the ticking clock thread.

Wants to be a janny so insanely badly.

>>95850768
Endgame can also mean a lot of different things, because, this may surprise you, but many games do not explicitly have some specific power ramp that players are expected to work their way up and get into "epic levels" or gear themselves up for especially huge challenges, becoming kings, gods, etc. The python example is, more accurately, like going
>which code does the best big tasks?
and when asked
>what kind of tasks?
The person who asked the initial question starts shitting their pants and crying, because EVERYONE knows what big tasks are! And they do, but specificity and elaboration are still required because it's a bland, open ended, extremely vague question to ask.

>>95850857
>the nogames faggot proceeds to seethe louder and across multiple threads, like the paranoid schizoid he is

>>95850744
Lmao seethe
>Noo my players love my game! They just don't want to play it, they want it to end as soon as possible!

>>95822782
ACKS is complete shit.

>>95850877
>abandonment issues
>trust issues
>emotion control issues
Take your meds

>>95850867
>tasks
would be analogous to games. OP asked about a specific aspect of gaming with a term that has been commonly used to commonly mean a specific thing for decades. Everyone really did know what endgame meant.

>>95850878
Why?

>>95850867
>many games
Okay, tell me about them.

I'll wait.

Or are you a nogames?

>>95850867
>>95850924
>Everyone really did know what endgame meant.
seriously, the first two replies even showed this. for some reason they didn't need clarification

I think a lot of games really suffer in the "late game" department. Either due to trivialization or absurdity brought on by requiring ridiculous challenges to engage the player. D&D 5e unfortunately seriously suffers from this past level 8 or so. Games I think that do better at this "late game" scenario are systems like Call of Cthulhu and The One Ring. For example in The One Ring, your Endurance (kinda like hp) and parry (like AC) never increase all that much without very special investment. And no matter your experience, two wounds or one unlucky one kill you. Your ability to hit consistently and hit hard does meaningfully go up if you choose to upgrade it, which makes you more lethal in combat and allows you to go toe to toe with more dangerous opponents, but no matter your experience, an arrow in the heart is an arrow in the heart and the mechanics reflect that. This means combat always carries some risk which is good, hordes of goblins are still a threat as they should be. Call of Cthulhu is also similar in that dangerous things are always dangerous regardless of experience.

However, even these games suffer in other areas. Both games can have Skill Checks become trivially easy to pass (at which point degrees of success are what really matters). Still, they do a pretty good job and you have to be extremely experienced for it to be an issue. And in Call of Cthulhu at least, its unlikely your character will live that long anyways.

>>95850961
>, your Endurance (kinda like hp) and parry (like AC) never increase all that much without very special investment. And no matter your experience, two wounds or one unlucky one kill you.
This is why I like playing Traveller. Players can get rich as fuck but good gear likely just means they're taking on better equipped foes, so if they don't continue to play smart, they can still get smeared by heavy weapons or have their ship blown out of space.

>>95850924
He asked an extremely vague question about a very broad topic, dipshit. What kind of endgame does OP want and how can you qualify it as "the best"? Best at what?

>>95850940
>spoonfeed me
Vast majority of non-D&D-adjacent games don't play with the expectation that your characters will become gods. Many OSR games play with the expectation that you will probably die a horrible early death. This goes for more Mork Borg imitators and spin-offs. ACKS is explicitly designed with the intention of characters gradually working up to being Kings. PBTA shit quite often says that when a character advances enough times, you should just retire them. The entire WoD line is designed with the intention that your characters may attempt to ascend or survive the social power jockeying, but they will probably die early. Games like Ryuutama end when you finish the story, but have no delusions of amassing grand amounts of power and wealth. Tenra Bansho Zero, on the other hand, is built for one/two shot games that tell a cinematic arc. CoC has you going insane. GURPS is not designed for extremely high point totals, because the game becomes unplayably broken when a player character has too many ranks in too many things.

The "endgame" is not always universal.

>>95850876
And yet only you are having any actual trouble interpreting the question or premise. He asked what endgame [people here think] is best. A subjective question inviting subjective replies.

>>95851022
>He asked an extremely vague question about a very broad topic, dipshit.
The first replies knew what he meant just fine.

>>95851022
Good post.

>>95850878
I don't give a fuck about the game, but every time it's mentioned in a thread it's obvious that ACKS shills are just /pol/tard style manchildren, who don't even know how to make their game actually sound appealing.
If anything, it's more like the opposite effect: why would I want to play a game whose "fans" are even worse than bisexual coffeeshop 5e tiefling players?

>>95851101
>melty at the mere mention of the no-no system
uh-oh!

>>95850932
Nta, but from the top of my head
>Absolutely abhorrent busy-work combat, where you do a shitload of stuff for no actual gain
>Slow as fuck due to the way the amount of rules and how horribly they are formatted
>Even slower if you don't make your own shorthand of it or at least bookmarks
>Boasts about being the most complete fief management, despite the rules not working
It's effectively collection of few different rulebooks from late 70s and early 80s DnD, cobbled together without a second thought put into it and simply assembled together, rather than being spread over bunch of books.
This is a combat-centric game that has combat so bad, you want to delegate to NPCs, just to not deal with this shit.

>>95851174
So you've played it quite a bit then?
>despite the rules not working
which ones?

>>95851101
>don't even know how to make their game actually sound appealing.
That's because that's impossible. It's a game for people who masturbate to spreadsheets, and whenever they watch the Matrix they spend the entire time sweating because all they can think about is if Mr. Anderson doesn't hurry up with all the kung fu stuff he's going to be late for work and his supervisor will be very upset.

>>95851115
something about that smile is ever so slightly unnerving

>>95851022
>designed with the intent

Funny, in all of those you described the concept of endgames. All of the ones with progression incentivize characters off before they get too strong. That doesn't mean they don't have endgames, just that the system is designed to avoid endgame. This means that 'endgame' still exists as a concept in them.

Your argument that 'endgame can mean a lot of different things' falls apart when all of the most common TRPGs in the world has an endgame. There isn't someone from a mythical underground society of PBTA characters who have isolated themselves from every popular system in the world, then pop into this thread and somehow have no idea what the word means.

It's a common term. People know what it means. People use it in TRPG contexts to mean the same thing. If you don't, you're either a newfag, retard, or troll.

Probably all three.

>>95851302
>incentivize characters off
incentivize characters to get killed off, that is.

>>95851195
I really, really tried to get into this game, but it's just awful, both for one-shots and attempt at campaign
>which ones
All of them, that's the thing (reminder the context is fief management). It's 50 pages of total bullshit that wasn't playtested even a single time. How I know? Because nobody sane would write 7 pages on how to decide local prices for trade goods without first checking if the numbers even add up into a meaningful values. You might end up with rounding errors after doing 33 rolls.
Did I mention you need to make 33 rolls?

>>95850932
It's slow, boring, and not any fun. There's not a single good idea, just the dullest, most useless charts that only exist to waste everyone's time.
Anyone who paid for it got scammed, and now we have to deal with them coping over their buyer's remorse and embarrassment.

>>95850932
Let me put it this way:
Ever played pic related?
Because ACKS is effectively pic related, except played with a piece of paper and bucket of dice.
And it's NOWHERE near as fun as you might assume it is.

>>95851302
Different anon, but have you ever take into account where you are?
As in: what board?
Because something tells me you are a clueless /v/tard who has no fucking idea what the fuck he's talking about. And that's already being generous, because you might be as well be a terribly scripted bot.

>>95851375
Wow, what an interesting and informative response! You've sure proved your point!

>>95851052
>The first replies knew what he meant just fine.
Vague answers to a vague question.

>>95851302
Endgames CAN mean a lot of different things which is why OP should have clarified or been more specific and why you should touch brass, retard. I can tell you Yzeba's Bed and Breakfast has the best endgame and not elbaorate that it's the best if you want a god awful faggoty experience where a bunch of terrible tumblr OCs go through remedial soap opera drama and take HRT. It's the absolute fucking best endgame experience of its kind for that extremely niche subgenre of RPGs.

>>95851332
>all of them
Wow, sounds really easy to argue for and really difficult to argue against!
>I really, really tried
Well that's vague but I've no reason to doubt you.

>>95851695
>Endgames CAN mean a lot of different things
Sure but a community that discusses a lot of topic can have a meaning that's understood as the common one, which is why this thread got a couple of replies before the completely unnecessary question.

>>95822782
Yep.

>>95832957
How is it slower than the average d20 game?

>>95822752 (OP)
i know im gonna catch shit but unironically 4th edition dnd.

was it video games? yes, but did it deliver? also yes. dozens upon dozens of epic destinies which definitely lived up to the name letting you play demigods, liches, spartacus, etc. they also printed tons of multi-page spread epic level bosses, and had loot that scaled into that realm as well

it was one of the few ttrpgs i've played that not only wanted you to get to the endgame, but also thrived there

>>95852277
it is. I played it, and the rules are bad. Which ones? All of them. I know from playing it.

>>95852407
Neutral person who has no strong feelings for or against ACKS. Lets say there's a theoretical fight where a party goes against a bugbear and some random goblins. What makes the ACKS version of this fight worse than vanilla D&D?

>>95852573
You have to roll dice and all the rules are bad.

>>95852664
>>95852407
literal child

>>95852232
The rest of my post covers WHY they are awful. But here, a shorthand of issues
>World-gen rules, if used, will ALWAYS generate you a stable kingdom with a single- or bi-polar market (which depends on a single roll half-way through and that roll is geared is on bell-curve, so you are fucked); this means you are stuck in civilized farmland and trade is impossible
>World-gen rules are spread over three separate sub-chapters, that do not inform about each other in any sensible way, you just need to read the book cover to cover to find out the missing stuff
>All this busy work has no actual meaningful purpose, because you could half-ass a setting with a map in 10 minutes and get better results than pouring entire evening into checking all the tables
>If you use those rules to generate your fief, you are going to get fetility 7 borderlands in 80% of cases
>Said fief will be forced to be part of the pan-setting market, screwing you out of any profit
>The rules of "management" boil down to two things: bean-counting of your keep, right down to paying for walls on per-feet values AND complete abstraction of just throwing 10k gp to improve the settlement
>All the rules are about settling American Wild West frontier and aren't even subtle about it. Unless you directly go into urbanisation sub-rules (which covers for all kinds of settlements, not just towns), your fief is just a motley collection of homesteaders

>1/2

>>95854879
>Establishing your keep and any settlements requires to go through the market rules, which again gives you 33 rolls per place for 3-5% different final outcome of default values (and given prices of various goods, you might have no impact whatsoever, being a rounding error)
>Which is pointless anyway, because your keep, unless set up in complete outback, is instantly rolled into the bigger market (which you have to establish first via world gen)
>Markets are absolutely static. There is no real supply and demand in it, there is just fixed supply and ever-growing demand. You actually can't increase supply
>Growth of your fief is purely linear and the rules outright prevent you from changing that. Said growth isn't even randomised in real, meaningful way
>There are in total 20 pages about profits earned from your fief that can be summed up in a single sentence: "You earn per month n[(3d3+2d6)*population/1000], where n is a value between 0.3 and 0.4". The final result is such a laughable sum, a single dungeon crawl is going to earn you more than a fief with 2d6 large towns and prosperous villages per year
>You are forced to baby-sit the whole thing personally, or else morale rules kick into overdrive
All in all, you are better off just simply fiating the whole thing than ever bother with using that pointless blot of tables and sub-rules. The worst part is that none of it was playtested, because they would instantly realise various issues the sub-rules have and swap them around. And you aren't going to convince me they've playtested this thing, when you, in rules as written, can't make profit by establishing lumberjack camp, because whatever lumber it will make, it will be swallowed by the pre-existing market, making the camp DEMAND lumber.

>2/2

>>95852232
And to truly hammer down how bad it is:
There are 3 different automatic programs generating settlements floating the net. All three of them ignoring different parts of rules just to keep things sane, because programming something for a rounding error is a wasted effort.
That's how bad it is: people who tried to automate it refuse to do the whole package due to its meaninglessness and self-contradictions

>>95852232
Oh, right, few more, since they aren't directly fief management, but just tie to the pointless tedium of trying
Because if you go insane enough to turn your dungeon crawler TTRPG into commodity trading and farmland management sim, you have to face the trade system of the game
>Merchants are generated via market class, so you get the same amount of merchants regardless of commodity you are selling
>While in theory market class governs specific demand, the impact on the prices is, again, a rounding error
>Because bigger markets swallow things into them, anything established within the market is already automatically siphoned into the system (eg that lumberjack camp example)
>Thanks to trade goods abstraction, there is literally no point selling anything else than luxury goods, even in class 7 (lowest) markets, because "demand" merely governs how many merchants there are and how many loads they buy, NOT what they are willing to buy in the first place
>Trading by itself is made extra tedious thanks to "realism" of it going across days, effectively to find more buyers on your stuff. But you can't end up with situation where there is none, you always find buyers, even in the shittiest market
>There are taxes to all of this, along with care and maintenance fees, that you need to pre-roll before even trade starts; God forbid if your players decided not to trade in the end
ACKS sucks.
Plain and simple

>>95830944
Found the gay tourist hipster from bluesky.

>>95854884
Different anon, but I would like to correct you on a single issue:
>"You earn per month n[(3d3+2d6)*population/1000], where n is a value between 0.3 and 0.4"
The actual line should be:
"Each family earns you 3d3+6 gp per month, subtract 7/6/5 gp depending if cv/border/wild due to maintenance. The 3d3 roll is done when establishing the fief, representing the soil fertility and local resources. Consult the table for population limits of your fief"
But hacking through the rulebook to get it down to such information is a fucking agony.

t. made an Excel sheet to calculate this stuff, took me a whole weekend and I'm an accountant

>>95822782
idk what that is

>>95851101
Found the bisexual coffeeshop 5e tiefling player.
Also the whole point of ACKS is that it meant to go towards the end game and has basically mostly everything you would need for endgame level play. From being able to make your own kingdoms, run a business, control a spy network, even work on becoming a god. So yeah, you have more than just dungeon diving and doing random quests. That should be seen as early game play till you can get your own band of mercenaries and help take over a kingdom to get noble status and after fucking up and banging the princess, sacrificing all your men's souls to get power and take over a kingdom. Then when you do have to learn how to mange it so it doesn't collapse due to debt and all. You could say it takes Guts to do that. (No, I am not apologizing for that, it was fucking funny.)

>>95855151
>Let me now ignore the whole thread and all the arguments people made against me to repeat like a mantra once more my starting spiel

>>95852573
OD&D combat is very, very dated. It's a bad mix of very few tactical decisions and plenty of annoying little rolls/checks and obtuse rules. Usually. the biggest decision you can make is if shit is going south, you can run. Its saving grace is that it can be mercifully short.
ACKS took that, and instead of improving it, worsened its problems. You feel like you have no control over a battle and you're just watching it play out, and it takes ages because you have to do dumb shit like roll initiative for everyone every single round. It's a game that's actually kind of insulting; it doesn't respect your time or your intelligence.
It doesn't feel playtested at all, because someone should have said "This fucking sucks, these added rules make it worse."

>>95855151
Ask me how I know you didn't as much as never played ACKS, but didn't even bother to read it.

>>95854949
>>95854879
odd that they stopped the smarmy replies after you said this

>>95855267
>It doesn't feel playtested at all, because someone should have said "This fucking sucks, these added rules make it worse."
That assumes the playtester knows how it was in the actual old editions.
But other than that, agree on everything else. The game wasn't tested at all, with all the effort and energy poured into marketing instead.
Which I guess worked out as a business decision (we are discussing that drivel at all), just not in terms of delivering a playable and/or good game.

>>95855317
I blame it on the hour.
But if no replies till evening, I've been had and have written a litany of issues as a reply to a zero-effort troll post

>>95855151
That's the sounds good in theory part.
The actual game is misery. It's so poorly made, that it's essentially and ironically what happens when ambition exceeds grasp. It's just rules slapped on top of more rules, and instead of actually stopping to make them work, they just moved on to add more rules.
ACKS takes whatever fun there could be in becoming a king and replaces it with all the boring tedium of being a middle manager at an office supply depot, except even there you'd at least be working with numbers that make sense.

>>95855151
ACKS is less Griffith, and more just being one of the nameless NPCs that make up his mountain of corpses.

>>95854879
>bean-counting of your keep, right down to paying for walls on per-feet values
This is probably the peak idiocy of ACKS ruleset. They give you "detailed" list of prices for various elements to assemble the stronghold... without providing an actual example of a ready-to-use stronghold at specific pricetag. Or any pricetag, really. They just tell you what the target value should be. Which lead to the only possible outcome when I used it with my group: the tallest stone wall, single section, since that happens to be borderlands target value. Just 100 feet of wall, move along, nothing to see here.
Then you end up with a situation where your stronghold is worth less than the fucking village you just established next to it, despite said village being 20 shoddy hovels, but somehow it makes sense within the rules. Don't ask how or why, it just does.
Bonus points that if, instead of a stronghold of any kind, you just ordered 15 wooden buildings to cheese the settlers rules and them showing up much earlier than when trying to build an actual keep.
Of course you (most likely) won't notice any of this, being too busy with calculating pay-grade for individual archers you hire, each accounted separately.
After all of which you will just simply give up 50k gp to turn your fief within the next month into a bustling town, all on its own, no accounting needed.

But hey, the game has those awesome rules for managing your own barony! You can even design your own castle!
So much fun!

>>95855484
Reminder this kernel exists:
>The time required to construct a stronghold depends entirely on its total price. For every 500gp it will take one day of game time. The construction time can be reduced by 25% by paying 50% additional construction costs, or reduced by 50% by paying 100% additional construction costs. The construction time cannot be reduced by more than 50%.
Which gets absolutely hilarious results when you check the pricetags. Did you know it is possible to build a wooden fort within a single day, but building a shack takes three and can't be faster than that, even if you heavily overpay?

>>95851358
>hey, let's make this game realistic!
>you mean by doing research beyond skimming wikipedia?
>lol no, not that kind of realistic. Realistic like having to fill out paperwork to do anything.

>>95826715
No idea where you got that impression, but I recommend seeking therapy
>>95850878
Hello fishfag I would like you to name three points that elaborate what you have had to say, otherwise you will be mocked and divided
>>95855078
Wouldn't it be crazy if there was some sort of interconnected communication device that allowed you to sift through human knowledge using some kind of searching mechanism?>>95855484
>>95855692
If you think the level of research that went into that game is Wikipedia skimming, you'd be surprised, but that's about what I would expect from somebody who has such blatantly incorrect views, that he touts as objective fact.

>>95856407
>ACKShill appears
Abandon thread, everyone.

>>95856407
Please, do ACKS a favor, and shut up. It's a mediocre game, but that's not a crime in itself. Your rabid attempts to shill for the game and your efforts to try and defend it have made it go from just a mediocre game to "game that is championed by the most retarded autists".

If you really love the game, do it a favor and stop making the people who play it look so bad.

>>95856485
I'd really love if you could go ahead and tell us what the word shill means? Does it mean "someone who is openly a fan and supports something"?
>>95856515
You being ass blasted over the game already means that you're never going to play it, so since you have zero interest, why don't you run along and let the people who actually play games, talk to each other :-)

>>95856515
How do you feel about fishing?

>>95856613

lurk moar

>i use words incorrectly so I'll just pretend he's a newfag
I've been here 19 years this month baby boy, possibly since before you were born

>>95854879
>>95854884
This is a fair set of complaints. I'm an ACKS appreciator and readily admit that it's rough around the edges. At best. It was a work of years of singleminded passion and little-to-no finesse. My personal use for it has just been to pillage the tables and subsystems for anything I find of use. Investments and the wound tables, in particular, have been a delight. To be blunt, on the domain side, I've gotten much more out of An Echo, Resounding and adding some crunch to the outcomes, here and there. Kevin Crawford is a genius, I've repeatedly gotten gold out of his stuff where I was digging for clay. In keeping with the analogy, I'd say that ACKS is closer to tin than any other metal. Rare and mostly-fragile on its own, but you can get some shiny results if you've got enough copper on hand.

>>95856956
It's more like just shit. Not even polished shit.
Kinda why fags like you like to chug it down.

>>95856680
i have also been here since 2006
i found 4chin from a frien's >facebook post, he shared some art software from a /rs/ thread. rip rapidshare

how did you end up here? -- and congrats on your upcoming anniversary anon!

>>95856407
I don't even know why you replied to me, given my post (bean-counting on keep) literally has nothing to do with any of your replies

>>95856956
Different anon, but one that tried to make ends out of fief management and they aren't rough. They just don't work.
From the top of my head:
>GURPS has better, more consistent and also both far more detailed and easier to use rules for ANY piece of land you want to manage, doesn't even have to be a feudal domain
>Mongoose Traveller has completely accidentally good property management rules that were originally done for ships, then expanded to bases and are actually useful outside sci-fi
>OVA, a low-brow anime-centric game, has complete set of rules of managing both a "base of operation", but also a feudal domain, since it has to cover for magical girls fighting ninja robots in Edo Japan
>Pathfinder 2e, despite having both 3.X autism and Pathfinder autism, has better, shorter, yet more precise and actual in-depth rules for fief management
>Fucking BitD has better, more consistent and also impactful on your game progress and gang status thanks to it (still obtuse and convoluted) rules on base management

As for your post
>Investments have been a delight
You mean "Throw raw gp into your settlement, until the total sum reaches next threshold, here are the 6 of those thresholds"?
Or you mean "For every 1k gp your domain attracts d10 families" (which means you turned 1k gp into d10*fief fertility [3d3] of monthly income)
Truly, takes a very refined taste to find this delightful, excuse me, a plebean, from being unable to appreciate such delicacy.

I was suggested ACKS 3 years ago when I was preparing a management-heavy quest for summerfags. I tried to make sense out of those rules and realised I'm better off fiating shit, and then that I'm better off using different system entirely. That game doesn't have issues. That game doesn't work.

>>95822752 (OP)
This thread is aids and no one answered the question. The people who tried to answer it don't count because I don't care, you're all annoying and gay.

>>95855533
>The construction time can be reduced by 25% by paying 50% additional construction costs, or reduced by 50% by paying 100% additional construction costs
Let's change this sentence into useful and handy information, to decrease on both confusion and bean-count. You know, how game rules should be
>Daily construction limit of 500 gp can be increased either:
>by 125 gp by paying extra 250 gp
>or by 250 gp by paying extra 500 gp
Same information, yet far more accessible.
It doesn't matter what your total is, it matters what's your daily limit, so writing it in percentages is pointless.
I get it that this is a game made by people insane enough to sieve through B/X bullshit rules, but when you are re-making that stuff, your paradigm should be to make it clear, precise and to the point. And not just collecting together a set of already poorly worded rules from a few of different books and mags.

>>95857044
Thanks! I started playing D&D when I was 13, found the Giant in the playground forums online, they referenced how 4chan was a forbidden zone, so of course I had to come here. Simple as

>>95857148
>>OVA, a low-brow anime-centric game, has complete set of rules of managing both a "base of operation", but also a feudal domain, since it has to cover for magical girls fighting ninja robots in Edo Japan
No shit? I've seen people talk up OVA before, but they never mention that.

>>95854879
>>95854884
>>95854949
>If you use the rule as written then-
The first thing you'd be doing is mapping the campaign setting in which you, as DM, take a hand in the setting and don't just blindly wank out to charts.
And you'd be following the advice that says 'Your starting region should be a frontierland between order and chaos' so I don't know where you got 'It's all civilized farmland all the way down' from.

>>95862506
>the rules work if you just don't use them
lmao

>>95857231
>Just remove the scalability
Alright I see where you're coming from. The thing is, ACKS is intended to be scalable. The way you want it rewritten is the way it would've originally been written in something like B/X or Chainmail.

The thing is though, that doesn't tell you how to recalculate it if you want to. So if you change things then you're up shit creek.

Example, let's say my group wants to build a keep, rather than hiring a bunch of engineers they cut a deal with a local hill giant clan to buy some of their ogre slaves and hire a few giants to be their foremen.
I, as DM, rule that an Orge can do 5 sp worth of labour per day (Each Ogre being equivalent to 5 men) and that the Hill giants count as doing 2 gp worth of labour per day (Giant = 20 men)
One of my players points out to me that because they're bigger and doing the work faster the Daily construction limit should be higher as well, which is a completely fair point. It's not that there's a shitload of people working and getting in each others way, it's that they're using a different method of doing things.

I as DM make the ruling that using each Ogre only counts as 1 person for the cap limit, meaning the 'effective cap' for Daily construction when using ogres is different to that of humans.
Fine at the time.
Then one of my players decides he's going to seduce the Chieftainess of the Hill Giants.

6 levels later he's got an army of giants and ogres and wants to build a fortress fast as possible because the Local Lords have banded together and they're en route.
He turns to me and asks what's the cap if he pays all the giants in luxuries so they'll work through the night.

I turn to the book and:
>Increase by 125gp by paying extra 250 gp - Fuck, er, I-
>Reduce by 25% by paying 50% additional - Right so you were going to pay them 1000 GP per day, they'll get it done in 75% of the time for 1500 GP per day. Done

You see the difference?

>>95862550
Ah so you're just a trolling retard then.
Good job I suppose.

>>95862577
nice try at damage control, shill

>>95862584
>Nice try shill!
Meanwhile further up the thread:
>Odd that they stopped the smarmy replies
You got the reply you wanted and the reply was 'Try reading instead of regurgitating what you heard on reddit, retard'

>>95862603
you still trying?
fuck off, shill

>>95822752 (OP)
I think people who create ugly things on purpose should be tortured for confessions and then ritually strangled.

>>95862506
How did this even get published. Self-published?

Books are supposed to go through an editor. This reads like a first draft from an autistic child. Tone is all over the place, directions are nonsensical and overcomplicated, and it only goes between so-broad-it's-useless and hyper-specific-so-it's-even-more-worthless. The name-dropping also only serves to highlight the lack of originality.

I now understand why this game gets so much hate here. If the entire book is like that, it's not even reaching mediocrity, it's just outright useless. It's like a guide for people without minds.

>>95862791
>I've been proven wrong, time to return to my go-to vapid seething
I can see why you never give actual specifics now.
Because you know what'll happen when you do.

>>95862632
Do you really hate your mother that much?

>>95862791
It was scamstarted.
Ignore it, ignore the shills. They come here because they got banned from reddit for overshilling.

>>95850612
>Codefags think they are still relevant in 2025
You're being replace by pajeets and robots, lol. Hope you enjoyed the undeserved free ride while you did.

>>95851101
I'm on the outside looking in, and it's always the anti-ACKS fags complaining that look like unhinged retards, but my preferred system is SotDL/SotWW, and I'm used to people shitpoasting.

>>95862896
Try playing it.
You'll understand that it deserves more hate than it gets and how shameless its shills really are.

>>95862896
That's because it's not unhinged retards, it's unhinged retard.
Literally one guy who has been at it for 3+ years at this point.
I imagine there are people who could make good arguments about why ACKS is a weak system.
But not those people are not this person.

Also
>SotDL/SotWW
Obligatory 'Lmao, isn't that the poo-poo pee-pee system?'

>>95862958
>ACKShill is back
He just doesn't die.

>>95862896
>I'm on the outside looking in
sure, bro

>>95855328
Would you mind providing an example of rules bloat?

>>95857231
What about if you can do more than 500 gp worth of construction per day?

>>95862833
Why do you care about what happens on Reddit?

>>95863015
Because he wants to have the same here.
Not even a joke, you can check the archives, 'ACKS Ban' or 'ACKS banned' should do it. You can hear him edging every time he goes 'UwU, the shwills are hwere too, we nweed to ban it so I'll stop shitting up thweads :3c'
He's not going to stop, that much is obvious by this point.

>>95862964
I'm from the /OSRG/, and we have to deal with him endlessly. He keeps getting into arguments for hundreds of posts, treating everyone he's arguing with like one person, and then having all his posts deleted, just for him to start up the same exact shit because he just dodges any bans he gets.
Even though most people have learned to just avoid triggering him, some new arrival or just an old idiot always sets him off, so it's just a nigh-constant cycle of him sperging while we try to have conversations in between. Even when it feels like everyone knows to just leave him alone, he'll actually start baiting as hard as he can.
The mods can't seem to do anything about him, so we're just stuck with him.

>>95822752 (OP)
REIGN where presumably the ultimate endgame is conjuring the entire world

>>95863015
Because when they ban shit, that shit drips here.

Hm, let's see
>Anti-ACKS side: It's shills, even though they're not selling anything at the moment, but it's also all one guy because they've not got much of a budget I guess, but any reply to my critique is also bullshit, and-
>For-ACKS side: Go look at the archive, I don't have to prove anything, the facts speak for themselves.
I wonder which side I should believe, lmao.

>>95863093
You seem to be hoping no one actually checks the archives and sees how often you've been banned for trolling.
You even had your posts deleted in this very thread. It's actually kind of scary what kind of arrogance a person will act with when they feel like they're above any repurcussions for their actions.

>>95863150
How do you feel about fishing?

>>95863093
And reading back, here's the post over on /osrg/ that started the current big argument:
https://archive.4plebs.org/tg/thread/95828704/#95839397
>Why do people act like ACKS gets a free pass when it's a huge departure from the OSR philosophy, bringing plenty of 3rd edition ideas like feats and ludicrous amount of classes? Even if people subscribe to Foster's camp about what is OSR, that's means valuing "rulings over rules," which is the opposite philosophy of ACKS.
>It's actually a direct opposite to Basic, with Basic being a deliberate effort to refine OD&D into its most, well, basic components.

After that there's a perfectly civilized discussion on the virtues and failings of ACKS, then the conversation moving on until a few hours later when:
>Having rules for fishing and trade opens up
>I disagree. That moves the focus of the game from what it's actually good at to some nonsensical economics simulation that has no legs.
>No one plays a game to be a fish merchant. That's just what happens when there's absolutely nothing else for the players to latch on to. A puddle is a lake to a man in a desert.
And it all goes to hell from there with everyone trying to explain why he's retarded and him stubbornly ignoring every reasonable point.

This description:
>The fishfag nickname comes from one time he threw a particularly over the top tantrum even by his standards over a DM using ACKS to adjudicate his players catching fish, smoking it, and reselling it for a profit.
Seems entirely legit.

https://archive.4plebs.org/tg/thread/95828704/
Thread I'm looking at, just in case it's the wrong one.

>>95863150
Boy it sure is interesting how you keep saying that but never post links isn't it?

>>95863183
>ACKShill actually thinks he can tell us what we should think
>doesn't realize he's showing off how invested he is and how much effort he puts into trying to gaslight /tg/

>>95863183
Reading onwards, his complete inability to admit that he's wrong is what fucked the thread up and any time anyone calls him on it, he pivots back to 'ACKS Bad tho' and rambling about it being banned on reddit because of Nazis or some shit.
It's literally a 'My players did something a bit creative and the system supported it, isn't that neat?' post which he keeps insisting is actually about how the game was totally boring whenever people try to explain it to him.
>You're still mad about people calling your fish story boring. All your mental gymnastics of "IT'S ABOUT PLAYER AGENCY" and "YOU JUST DON'T GET IT" doesn't change that you think a story about people being so bored with the rest of your game that mongering fish is a welcome distraction is some grand victory.
Is this really what all this fuss is about?

>>95863183
That's not what happened in that thread at all.

You posted your fish story, people called it boring, and then you went on a tantrum calling everyone your boogeyman, until you finally admitted it was boring but that was actually a good thing.

And then all the posts were deleted because enough people are just tired of your sperg-outs.

>>95863240
How do you feel about fishing in RPGs? Let's say my character says "Hey GM, where is the best fishing spot on this river? Can I buy a boat and have an NPC fisherman fish for me and sell it at the local market? How much money do I make from this?"

>>95863240
>>95863262
>(you) posted (your) story
Boy for someone that keeps saying the other guy can be recognized by getting into arguments for hundreds of posts and treating everyone he's arguing with like one person, you sure are doing a lot of that aren't you?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JhUICp5XeJ4

>>95863276
ACKShill, you are the only person who cares.
And you care a lot.

>>95863292
>I don't care
He screamed 2 hours (so far) into camping the thread.
Lel.

>>95863276
Wait, are you trying to hide who you are? You probably shouldn't do the same exact thing, over and over again, for dozens of threads.
There's now thousands of posts of you fighting your personal boogeyman, and you're now doing the same thing in this thread.

>>95863318
>There's now thousands of posts of you fighting your personal boogeyman, and you're now doing the same thing in this thread.
Man we could run a public viewing of Casablanca on the surface of the moon with you, couldn't we?

>>95863183
I was there for that thread.
You spent most of the thread arguing with yourself. You'd say something like "oh, so what you're really saying is that you believe [something else entirely]? Let me argue about that."
You just like to argue. But you're not very good at it. So you do weird shit like you're doing now, where you're not actually arguing. You're just being an attention whore. And then saying "No, everyone else is the attention whore. Let me argue about that."

>>95856485
This is the only way to avoid disaster.

>>95862571
>2k signs
>To prove to be a complete fucking moron
>2k signs
>That could be summed up with "Nu-uh, you're wrong"
No wonder you masturbate to ACKS

Also: ban-dodging is also bannable. Not that you care, but still

>>95863093
>People explaining, in detail, why and which rules and even basic wording doesn't work
>Shill gets his panties in a twist, especially since he ban-evaded
Ftfy

>>95864279
What the fuck is a "sign?"

>>95862506
So let me get this straight:
World-gen rules should be ignored, because they don't work, better just us your own setting.
Market rules should be ignored, because they don't work, better just use your own values.
Fief management should be ignored, because it kinda barely works, better just fiat it.
... why using ACKS then?
What's the big gain here, if it's better to not use the rules of the game?

Per >>95857148 all of the listed games have functional rules that can be used as written without ANY issues whatsoever. I can also add to them All Flesh Must Be Eaten, Tianxia, L5R 3e, Desolation/Leagues of Adventure (this is the same base system so I group them together) and even WFRP 4e.
Why should I be then using a game that has useless rules or rules that are best ignored? What then I'm supposed to paying the pricetag for?
Explain this to me, like you would to a child: what's the draw of the game that is worth spending money on, given the rules don't work and by your own admission are best ignored.

>>95864323
Did you drop out of elementary after like first week of the first grade? Or you are merely ESL? Or just 85?
Each post has a limit of 2k signs. That means letters, numerals, punctuation, spaces and non-letter characters.

>>95864347
Can I ask you a genuine question. Do you have autism?

>>95864347
>World-gen should be ignored
No, what he claimed was world gen was some bullshit that sprouted forth from him not taking his medication today.
So I posted the actual world-gen rules.

>>95864358
They're called CHARACTERS you fucking ESL. Holy shit, unironically kill yourself and go back to your third world.

>>95864371
Characters are signs used by syllabic writing systems, like Japanese or Cherokee.
Thanks for conforming you quit education at the age of 8.

For anyone who isn't him reading this, we're now at 6 hours of him squatting the thread, which he bumped again after not getting any attention for nearly three hours.
Yet he has the temerity to say bullshit like:
>You just like to argue. But you're not very good at it. So you do weird shit like you're doing now, where you're not actually arguing. You're just being an attention whore. And then saying "No, everyone else is the attention whore. Let me argue about that."
When someone says this fucker is projecting, this is what they mean. Bereft of anyone replying to him, he'll continue to seethe independently with the fury of a nuclear reactor on a meltdown.

>>95864409
Shut the fuck up you disgusting ESL. Shut the fuck up forever. You do not get to talk to a white person with your temerity. You possess no knowledge of the English language, you have no understanding of math, or of storytelling. Just unironically kill yourself you fucking sad loser virgin.

>>95864366
... and if you follow those rules, you have 87.9% chance of getting what he described.
So either you ignored those rules and are clueless, didn't actually read them, or read them, but never tried using them and lack the basic reading comprehension to connect the dots on your own.
This game has an entire string of bell curves baked into world gen. I get it that math is hard, but bear with me: bell curves mean certain outcomes are more likely to happen. And any set of most likely outcomes compounds together. Meaning a set of most likely outcomes is statistically repetitive. Meaning it happens time and again.
In this case: in almost 88% of cases you are going to get a large kingdom spanning across most of the map, and all of it operating as a single market.
In fact, trying to use those rules as they are to the very end is a struggle in futility, because by trying to get a CHANCE to be within the range of those remaining 12%, you will have to go through it settlement by settlement to see if it changes anything. And in 88% of cases - it won't.

tl;dr you're a fucking moron and absolutely, dreadfully bad at promoting your game of choice; so bad, it borders on anti-marketing given your glowing incompetence

>>95864418
>>95864433
>Tries to gaslight another anon is him
>Instantly exposes himself with syntax and vocabulary
I'd also check what temerity means

>>95864454
Shut the fuck up, ESL.

Your first statement implies that you haven't read the rules, since there's a market for every settlement.

Just shut the fuck up, you disgusting virgin.

>>95864433
Anon, there's no point, he's never going to admit he's wrong about anything. He's too stupid to take even a single step back.
I mean shit, look what he's replying to
>It's written like this to make it clearer how the calculation works so you can tweak it
>Reads that as 'Nuh-uh, u stoopid'
There's not even an attempt to engage on any level.
He's here to shit things up and report people who get irritated at him for shitting things up.
That's all.

>>95864460
Shut the fuck up, ESL. You're a disgusting ESL virgin.

>ACKShill reached meltdown stage

>>95864478
Bro, you know I'm going to screencap the fact that you don't know what characters are and post this in every thread now, right? Like, you're done. You've lost forever. You're brown, which automatically invalidates everything you say.

As always, this particular posters ability to become passionately reviled by people who have never encountered him before shines through in every thread he shows up in.
It's remarkable, I've never seen anyone independently interact with so many people only for every single encounter to end with those it stumbles upon going
>Christ, this guy is a fucking cocksucker
On an anonymous image board no less.

>>95864478
>>95864460
>>95864454

>>95864501
I fail how any of this relates to my post about world-gen rules, but I guess >>95864478 is correct and you are so steaming right now, you are just mass-replying

>>95864532
>>95864478
You're the same person, brownoid.

>>95864501
The problem is that'd require him to have a shred of shame anon.
He doesn't so it won't work.

>>95864537
Yeah, I g uess everyone who ever points out ACKS rules are shit and then elaborate on that is actually just one person.
As opposed to the multiple anons that come to defend this glorious game.
Mate, seek help.

>>95864548
Matthew 7:3-5

>>95864555
Leviticus 18:22

>>95864552
>>95864555
see:
>>95864501

yeah from this thread I get that ACKS fags are crazy as hell lmao
>noooooo ACKS is great, you're wrong because you're brown and a disgusting virgin and use words I don't understand!
>>95864409
don't engage with him further or you're even more retarded than he is

>>95864849
You're talking to the guy who made the OP just to try and bait an imaginary nemesis. I don't think he wants to avoid conflict.

>>95864879
>Still trying to gaslight fault on others
Nigga, how many YEARS are you trying to pull this off? 3? 4?

MMOs have warped retards into thinking the end game matters more than the actual game

>>95864879
OP has nothing to do with ACKS.
Unlike your endless sperging.

>>95864897
With ttrpgs it's more about fantasizing than about actually playing end game.
Tracking shit becomes tedious, plot and characters become unappealing unless you're one of those big number autist along the lines of powerscalers who keep going on with ridiculous tiering and so on.
Imho at the point you become too powerful (whether in actual destructive power, or politically) it's just more fun to have the character retire and get a cool epilogue.
Fuck wasting time balancing boring "lategame" crap that would still suck if it worked 100%.

>He stops raving, hooting and hollering in here about ACKS
>He starts raving, hooting and hollering in /osrg/ about 2e
God it's so transparent.

I have no idea what ACKS is, but after this thread, I don't want to know, given the level of autism it unleashes

>>95864433

>What are signs?
>What is an endgame?
>What is a shill?
>NUH UH YOU'RE THE ESL AI BOT! I'm WHITE! I'M WHITE! I SWEAR TO GOD I'M WHITE!!!

heh

>>95823620
>half the reason the game exists sucks
Go play World of Warcraft then nigger faggot.

>>95864484
>Drive-in tier levels of projection

>>95822752 (OP)
Spellbound Kingdoms

>>95864433
>Bro fails at math
>Gets ass mad
>Demands that the person is retarded by virtue of possibly learning English in a way different to his own
NTAYRT, last I checked math is universal, language is not. If that guy, regardless of ESL status, is right about the math mathing then you are actually a retard projecting harder than an IMAX theater.

>>95870968
ESLs don't get to talk to me. Shh. I accept your concession. Move along.