The Gods must all die. Atheism is the only morally defensible position in fantasy. Ignore that I extensively used D&D and Pathfinder gods in previous campaigns and am now launching my own system. There is no ulterior motive here.

how is this pic related. Not a single one of his gods died, retard

did you get mad at made up scenarios in your head?

>>95832105
My bad they were just forced to become mortal under threat of death, because atheism is based *tips fedora*

>>95832069 (OP)
I heard he can't even run his own game and that his players can't play it either.

>>95832188
>Matt has a his own re-run of Forgotten Realms time of troubles
>anon makes up some fedora scenario to get mad about
I suggest touching some grass

>>95832188
How is atheism based if he literally made a point about how every single faith is still around an kicking and making plans to search for their god ASAP?

Also as >>95832227 said, its literally just the Time of Troubles.

>>95832188
They're stealing wholesale from forgotten realms now? Big atheism has gone too far.

>>95832340
I mean, the flying mage cities from his age of arcanum are a copy of Netheril, so it kind of checks out.

>>95832227
I like how you're on first name basis with a random eceleb that doesn't even know you exist

>>95832265
>literally just the Time of Troubles
Story beats from the 90s hit different in our current climate. I agree that it's an old trope for fantasy stories, but so were many other tropes that we don't really play around with anymore.

>>95832431
Oh, sorry, would you like me to adress him as Mr. Mercer instead? Lmao. The fuck you think im supposed to write instead?

>>95832431
The fuck?

>>95832069 (OP)
>The Gods must all die

>>95832069 (OP)

I heard their horror game was pretty bad too.

>>95832829
>i heard
Let me guess, some rage baiter who didnt even watch it but used the opportunity to get mad at unrelated politics or imagined trannies

>>95833025
>Imagined trannies
Damn, back in my day we used to imagine dragons. What has this hobby come to?

>>95833435
When you have more people speculating about the right/wrong way to play a game or worse yet dedicating their time to watching someone else play instead of actually doing it, that's the inevitable result

>>95832069 (OP)
Saying he runs games is like saying WWE wrestlers fight. It's entirely fake and staged.

>>95834391
meaning that he is closer to each than most anons in this board

>you're an atheist and yet you use gods in fiction
??????

>>95832227
It's extra brutal when an anon on the "playing pretend with cards and plastic dolls" board on 4chan tells you to touch grass.

>>95832069 (OP)
>>95832829
That faggot should be hung.

Atheism in fantasy is the belief of a mentally ill person. When gods are literally walking around / flying overhead raining magic down on your head you can’t rationally pretend that they don’t exist. Maybe you don’t know what atheism means because otherwise this is a nonsensical position.

>>95834855
You might be able to make the case for apatheism on the grounds a lot of gods seem to be more local in what they can affect than they let on and you've got more earthly matters to care about, but yeah. A lot of wannabe atheists in fantasy worlds tend to forget to live in houses with lightning rods.

>>95834537
Touch flock is suprisingly underused here. Or, maybe its unsuprising

>>95834855
>some things are big
Who cares? Worship isnt justified by something being big or existing. Steamrollers are big and real, but im not going to pray to a steamroller.

>>95836184
We'll see who gets the last laugh when you're sent to the steamroller hell, infidel.

>>95832069 (OP)
in my campaign all the gods have fucked off and are deeply hated and feared by the mortals. no clerics to be found.
world has been peaceful for a thousand years now, but as it seems, the gods will return in a year and there are factions trying to stop that and factions trying to allow the gods to return.
it will be interesting to see which side my players will be on

there's more going on in the background and it's not as black and white as it seems


but yeah, OP is, as always, a faggot

>>95836224
No. They will look at me and realize i am different

>>95834855
Atheism in fantasy usually goes the route of "These creatures do not deserve to be worshipped, they arent gods, just tyrants much stronger than us"

>>95834391
Let's be honest, now. It's all quite real, it's just more performance than any regular game played by average players would be like. You know, because they're professional actors who are intentionally making a spectacle of their play.

>>95832069 (OP)
Yes, everything should be done through basic animism.
>b-but how about we worship a God of Tables?
No.

>>95832468
“GM” will do just fine

>>95832069 (OP)
This is entirely the fault of the Mormons. I blame the insanely evil gods of Dragonlance for this.

>>95832069 (OP)
>Atheism
Surely you mean Protestantism?

>>95832069 (OP)
>>95832188
lmao christuck got assblasted
go worship your jew somewhere else

>>95837094

Two sides of the same coin. It's not a coincidence that all the strongholds of Protestantism in Europe(Scotland, England, Netherlands, et al) are majority atheist at this point.

>>95836333
That’s something else. If you’re just bigger and stronger and demand being called a god, it doesn’t actually make you one and being called out on that and rejected is a valid expression of atheism. But if you exist outside of time and space, can alter reality on a whim, then you are, essentially a god and it’s very hard for someone to rationalize the position of atheism.

>>95837548
A sufficiently high level wizard can do all of that, and people generally don't worship wizards.
I agree that people saying gods aren't real when your party's cleric has Pelor on speed-dial is dumb, but going "what makes gods worthy of worship when any sufficiently powerful magic-user can do the same without even needing people to believe in them?" is a more valid point. Or just choosing to study magic to become a powerful enough wizard to be a god in all but name.

>>95837628
Remember the Ori plotline from Stargate? The ascended energy beings who liked to larp as gods? A big part of the plot was trying to convince people that the Ori were not gods. But….when they can literally bring the dead back to life it’s a hard message to sell. One of the defining quotes was something like “what are gods except being of great power?” From that perspective, even to technologically advanced humans the Ori are, in fact, gods. What else do you call energy beings who exist on a higher dimension who are omniscient and who casually do absurd magic tricks? Maybe if you were an ascended energy being too you with vastly more brain power and observational capability you’d be able to understand how the magic works so it’s not actually magic from your perspective. But a human might as well be a god to a an ant from its very narrow viewpoint and limited cognitive ability.

>>95837548
>mortals can ascent to godhood (like the dead 3 in Forgotten Realms, half a dozen gods in Pathfinder or Raven Queen and Vecna in Critical role)
>so these guys are just former humans jackasses
>yeah, no, fuck those guys, its just another king wanting to pray tax me with fancier benefits and worse punishments
Like, be real here for a second. How much would you respect your local gods REALLY if you heard that one of them was a local Eceleb doing hot tub streams or some scammer dealing Crypto

>>95836333
>they arent gods
I blame this part on most people only being familiar with the abrahamic definition of god as an uncreated omni mary sue

>>95837730
Tbh by most pre-christian people definition of god, IE a being with greater power over the world, they would be gods even if the how they manipulate reality was understood

>>95836968
You want to call someone you don't even know "Master"?

>>95838387
No, I want you to.

>>95834855
Gods are not necessary for fantasy. There are fantasy settings where there are no gods.

>>95832829
What's the context for this

I wish this man so much of a downfall. It couldn't come sooner. Regardless if OP is right or not.

>>95842322
Gilmore mindbroke you

>>95841069
You should've embarrassed yourself enough now. Please stop.

>>95832265
>how every single faith is still around an kicking and making plans to search for their god ASAP?
So they're Dragonlance now?

>>95832069 (OP)
This does make me wonder if there's a single fantasy setting with no religions at all

>>95843056
Wouldn't this be Dark Sun?

>>95843083
Doesn't Dark Sun get rid of deities but still have druidism/shamanism?

Critical Role has always been cringe.
It is the rot on the hobby, and with it being confined to its own setting in Daggerheart, maybe we can finally heal and move on.

>>95843195
Last I heard they won't even run their own and game and are still "playing" DnD

>>95837324
Jews murdered Christ.

>>95843238
If that fairy tale character was an actual person in history, then it definitely does not matter what happened to him since there are no gods. Two thousand years later, you may as well worry about what happened to Anakin Skywalker.

>>95837730
Prophets vs Q fight when?

>>95843230
Sad. Everything they touch dies.

>>95843284
Reddit is down the hall to the left, tranny

>>95832829
Running Horror in a Fantasy Hero system like D&D is something that needs to be done incredibly carefully.
>The horror should be something that can't be readily defeated by traditional combat. Whether it's due to the Horror keeping in the shadows until it's ready for defeat, the Horror being overwhelmingly powerful, or just being outright invincible outside of its defeat condition.
>You have to kill Comedy once ACT 2 hits.
>And you should run it in person so you can have express control of the players' environment. It removes their ability to seek Comfort, and comfort kills Horror.

>>95843780
>tourist

fuck off

>>95834855
In RPGs, the use of "Atheism" mostly conflates with Alatrism. People who believe gods are real, but don't believe they are worthy of Worship.
Atheism is used as a stand-in because basically no-one knows the correct word.

>>95832069 (OP)
...and that ulterior motive is a gaming license every bit as shitty and anti-consumerist as the OGL-scandal that almost sunk WOTC.

>>95832069 (OP)
Cool. Play the settings you like. There are certainly plenty out there with gods and without.

>>95832069 (OP)
I think infecting Atheism with the revanchistic fedora seethe gene was probably the single most effective demolition of a popular ideological position in human history. In fewer than ten years we've gone from it being embarassing to admit to being religious, to people actively pretending to be religious to avoid having to share ideological ground with Internet Atheists. Sort of like how LGBT stuff caught a torpedo below the waterline with the bake the cake nonsense and has been slowly sinking ever since.

Truly the only way to have anything nice to challenge the lindy structures of society is to establish some sort of comissiarat to bully the fuck out of nerds before they can associate it with cringe.

>>95843238
>romans dindu nuffin!

>>95832069 (OP)
You're conflating atheism and anti-theism

>>95832442
>old stories are bad now because I associate their themes with people I don't like

>>95834391
You say this yet I bet you still wouldn't choose the fight a WWE wrestler

>>95834855
I mean if you came upon a powerful wizard who claimed to be God, would you think it's stupid to disagree?

>>95837548
>But if you exist outside of time and space, can alter reality on a whim, then you are, essentially a god and it’s very hard for someone to rationalize the position of atheism.

So every mid-level mage is a god?
>exist outside of time
Slow, 3rd level

>exist outside of space
Blink, 3rd level
If you don't think that counts, dimension door is 4th level

>alter reality on a whim
Even the most basic catnip can create something from nothing

This faggot is doing a rerun of the same plot?

> The "gods" don't even do their jobs
> Just have snitty fits and wave their cocks at the moon when they're bored
> When the world is inevitably destroyed, AO comes down to fix it
> No wait, he just slaughtered a few and then elevates some random mortals to start the cycle of snits and cock waving anew
> The 'good' gods are just humans often more evil than the evil one
> EEEEEEEE IF YOU DON'T WORSHIP OUR WORTHLESS ASSES WE'RE STICKING YOU IN THE WALL OF THE FAITHLESS EEEEEEEEEE DAD SAYS YOU HAVE TO DO WHAT I SAY EEEEEEEEE

Fuck all of them.

>>95851413
Anon was walled for this post.

>>95832069 (OP)
How did this topic impact your last gaming session? Be detailed and spesific.

>>95851036
It's cool I'll just challenge some dweeby featherweight joke wrestler like that little Jack Gallagher and his 1920s fancy lad shtick he can't possibly-

oh

oh no

>>95851084
Those are horrible examples, Slow just alters the perception of time for a single target, time is still very much affecting you during it at the same rate as usual. Different dimensions are still part of their own space, you aren't freely lingering in those between-borders you are using a defined 'tunnel' to navigate briefly through it. Conjuration doesn't create from nothing, it takes and summons from a different plane.

>>95852435
Why would you possible take such bad bait

>>95852490
This is 5e, they're either retarded enough to believe it or there will be another player who sees it and is.

>>95832604
This scene is him bowing down before a god.

>>95837324
>>95843284
>>95843794
kys newfag

>>95852786
>t. 19 year old tradcath who thinks they’re an oldfag
DAE LE LORD JESUS CHRISTO

>>95852927
I am thirty-three years old, boy.

>>95837324
Christianity predates the Talmud (and thus Judaism) by 3-5 centuries.
Go back to /pol/, crayon-eater.

>>95852030
What they don't tell you? The faithful just fade away anyway. You don't get an afterlife at all. They just let you die anyway.

>>95832069 (OP)
The fuck is even up with CR nowadays?
I only ever really followed it through the /tg/ threads, and those stopped a long time ago.

>>95853612
lmao, scrolled down and saw there was a thread up, talk about speaking too soon.

>>95853585
Judaism predates the talmut retard

>>95853766
It literally does not, you completely brain-rotted retard. Hebrew =/= Judaism. At all.
Shut the fuck up about things you clearly know fuck-all about.

>>95854354
>Oy vey, hebrews aren't jews!
lol

>>95836333
My favorite is that character in Small Gods whose delusional non-belief is so extreme that it goes full circle and Om can feed off it because it’s almost like worship.

>>95854354
You're splitting hairs. Rabbinic Judaism doesn't begin until around 70 CE after the destruction of the second temple, but it's a direct continuation of the Temple Judaism that preceded it, minus the temple. Which both Rabbinic Judaism and Christianity are direct continuations of. That early Christianity that you're pretending predates Rabbinic Judaism was an apocalyptic cult that very much believed that the world was about to end and it didn't become the thing that you think of as Christianity until some time in the second century CE. So you've either got to admit that Rabbinic Judaism is a continuation of the older Temple Judaism, which predates Christianity, or you have to admit that the thing you mean by "Chrisitianity" is no more that first-century religion it evolved out of than Rabbinic Judaism is the same as the Temple Judaism religion that it evolved out of. You cannot both claim that Christianity starts centuries before its modern form but that Judaism doesn't count until it reaches it modern form. If you treat them equally, and say that you're talking about the modern religions that bear those names, then they both coalesce some time in the third century and it's utterly impossible with our current sources for us to say which came "first," but it's also completely irrelevant because they're both coming from the exact same thing.

>>95854709
>Noooo, syncretism isn't real! This abrahamic religion is TOTALLY not created from it's predecessor!

>>95854709
Jesus Christ died, was buried, and resurrected on the third day. According to the scriptures. Jesus Christ is God and died so our sins could be paid for. The only thing you could do now is refuse Him. Know you won't just fade away or be reincarnated. No. The just and unjust alike will be resurrected according to God's promise. Then have to account for their lives. Which no one will be able to. Repent now and have your sins forgiven.

>>95855230
I mean... I guess this is the roleplaying board. Enjoy, anon.

>>95832069 (OP)
Nigga why are you even watching a podcast for 15 year old theatre girls, then seething about it? Aren't there hundreds of hours of this shit to get through?

>>95855230
So you're saying god is jewish.

>>95859230
Yeah he is

>>95832069 (OP)
I mean, think about it: Muslims have killed hundreds of thousands of people, and First World governments live in fear of them. All that, and it's not like Allah actually gives them super powers.
If Gods existed and handed out rewards to their followers, I'm 100% going all-in on worshipping the Gods. You'd have to be an idiot not to.
The only reason why Atheism is even a position (or whatever you call it) is because there's no demonstrable proof that the Gods are actually doing anything to help us.
If you can change that, I guarantee you people will flip immediately.

>>95855230
>Jesus Christ died, was buried, and [FANFIC]

>>95837730
>Energy beings from a higher dimension

Your first mistake was not turning them into a battery for your super weapon.

>>95837939
Your clerics are now your chat/livestream moderators

>>95859535
Shalon Rabi

>>95851413
I'm pretty sure they errata'd out the wall in the most recent PHG

>>95832069 (OP)
Christ is king
Critical Role is cringe
This thread doesn't really give any new information.

>>95849807
the internet truly ruined atheism forever and it will never not be funny. Seeing the average atheist scream and rage at how the image he built for himself as a no-nonsense logical warrior of intellectual iconoclasm crumble in real time really did a number on his sanity. Showing to the world that atheists were just as fallible, illogical, immature and prone to magical thinking as the hated theists was the final nail on the proverbial coffin.
Irregardless, Critical Role is pure shit and it's concerning how many still take it seriously (the R site)

>>95859909
Jews don't believe Jesus is the son of God, but Christians do believe Jesus is Jewish, and therefore if Jesus if God, Jesus is Jewish

>>95853149
No one in their thirties calls anyone "boy". That's not a thing. The only people who do are children trying to seem authoritatively mature. Because they don't yet understand how fucking stupid it sounds nor how laughably transparent they are.

>>95850970
The Romans gave him their wine rations.
The jews kvetched about how they wanted his blood to be on their hands and those of their children.

>>95862161
No, we believe that Christ is Christian, and in fact that the entire line of Abraham were Christians because they implicitly believed in the coming of Christ.

Judaism as we think of it now didn't exist until the Babylonian Talmudic reformation centuries after Christ.

>>95843784
He's not going for horror, he's going for Berserk/soulsborne. So more like a dark vibe of heroes fighting against the encroaching darkness but while being pretty damn powerful themselves and staring down the monsters defiantly.

>>95862598
>Christ is Christian
Cope
>in fact that the entire line of Abraham were Christians
Gigacope
>they implicitly believed in the coming of Christ
Interesting then that Jesus doesn't fulfill any of the messianic requirements given in the old testament

>>95852402
why did he ruin his persona with those tats? wtf, I thought we had streetfighter Dudley irl there for a second

>>95832227
The thing that makes it feel atheism-pilled is that the gods were shown to be complete clowns and having minds identical to mortals in every way. There was no lingering question of "Oh, but maybe these entities exist on another level of being which means they might know things we don't and have a greater grasp of the universe and therefore deserve reverence and worship, especially since we can gleam their mystical awe-inspiring power". Nope, not any of that, just quarreling with the party where they get completely owned, then turned into mortals.

Matt dun clowned his gods up. Besides, having cool visions and knowing that there are greater mystical forces out there makes the world richer, as was seen in the late-game of Campaign 1 where they met the gods and it felt like classical fantasy shit. No more of that.

>>95862840
It seems like your point of view is that "gods" are suppose to be these transcended beings who are supposedly above petty mortal concerns. Honestly that's more wistful then actually hoping they exist.

>>95832829
>Let me guess, some rage baiter who didnt even watch it
It's actually the opposite. These faggots have watched every single piece of content they've ever released and know it by heart, and they know all the e-celeb parasocial drama around them too, yet they post about them exclusively negatively.

Just think for a second about how miserable you must be to hatewatch all that thousand hour plus content and spend your freetime sperging out about it and its fans, while acting aloof and above it all. Boggles the mind.

>>95862840
So you mean like exactly the same way othre big PnP settings Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk or Pathfinder run their pantheons?

>"Oh, but maybe these entities exist on another level of being which means they might know things we don't and have a greater grasp of the universe and therefore deserve reverence and worship, especially since we can gleam their mystical awe-inspiring power"

Can Helm, Iomedae, Mystra, Erastil, St. Cuthbert or Boccob?

No? Maybe Bhaal, Caiden Cailean, Irori, Norgorber, Vecna or.... what? All former mortals? Well, shit

>>95862904
> "gods" are suppose to be these transcended beings who are supposedly above petty mortal concerns
Not entirely, it's expected that they'd show human tendencies as well, but they should be able to do that while keeping their transcendant qualities to be worhty of reverence and worship. The way the greeks and romans portrayed their gods with very human qualities yet also associated as symbols for the aspirational and the transcendent for example shows this kind of clearly.

The way they were portrayed in C3 just failed to keep that aspect of them, starting with the players for no good reason being against them, then leading to Matt portraying them in that pedestrian petty way which confirmed the players' views and so it just became a no-brainer uncomplicated choice to get rid of them.

>>95863054
I don't care much for Forgotten Realms with its kitchen sink setting, I'm not sure why it's held up as some gold standard here just because Matt is trying to ape some big event that happened there. Both can be bad at the same time.

>>95863066
If they are worthy of being worshipped it should come out in their character which may presumably be the point of depowering them and showing them when they are vulnerable.

But then that requires the writing to be good, not some conspiracy of atheism cripping in to kill belief in god.

>>95863077
Because Exandria, much like Forgotten Realms or Golarion, is a kitchen sink setting with a very similiar outline and thus they are a natural point of comparison?

>>95832069 (OP)
>The Gods must all die.

And there's nothing wrong with that.
Hell, the current game I am running basically has as the overplot that everything that is happening in the game right now is part of the 4d chess of a mortal who ascended to godhood and, using that newfound power, conspires to empower mortals to attack and destroy the divine realm entirely, despite knowing that this means her own destruction in the process. The gods that mankind worships are neutral forces at best, insane eldritch monsters at worst, and humanity is doomed to never be in control of its own fate so long as the gods have the ability to unilaterally fuck with the mortal world on a whim.
Think Prometheus, if instead of stealing fire what he gave to mankind was the knowledge of where to place the bombs to bring Mount Olympus crashing down.

>>95863111
I think the point is that the reason for worshipping them is that it's very much because of their power that they can express "character" that makes them worthy of worship. If they lose that and must simply be good-natured humans or whatever then that is lost. The former allows them to be assholes like Zeus who wouldn't be able to qualify as a human worthy of worship, but is because of his great power, because you can untuit that he's sitting on some knowledge of the world that you don't through the power.

>>95863054
>Can Helm, Iomedae, Mystra, Erastil, St. Cuthbert or Boccob?
>No? Maybe Bhaal, Caiden Cailean, Irori, Norgorber, Vecna or.... what? All former mortals? Well, shit
Having only played tabletop in homebrew settings and only having interacted with FR in playing Baldurs gate 1&2 and the occasional wiki entry I don't know, but Bhaal and the other gods not being as prevalent in your face definitely made them feel more mysterious and them having been mortals at one point didn't lessen it much. Neither did the Raven queen in CR, so I don't think that's a barrier for them to feel like deities with unknowable mystical aspects to them once they've ascended even if they started as mortals.

I specifically noted that in C3 they talked and were spoken of with such mortal minds that they lost that quality of divinity.

>>95862840
He's a woke militant atheist in deep with a whole circle of woke militant atheists. What'd you expect? The creator's beliefs will never be fully separated from the creation.

>>95863443
I mean he made them cool in the two first campaigns so, and by that point the reddit fedora wave and Richard Dawkins was already long over so not sure what would have changed that he started doing it 3 years ago, it hasn't been in the spotlight for a long time npw.

>>95863066
Anon, there was no real notion that Greek or Norse Gods were somehow morally and intellectually transcendent. They were personifications of the laws of nature and common aspects of reality, which were often viewed as being petty, malicious, and whimsical. Just like humans.

Most of the pantheon wasn't worshipped or prayed to for any aspirational reason, but but for entirely selfish ideas of appeasement and favor. Because people acknowledged that however much the Gods were assholes, they were assholes with a lot of power, and however little you like that asshole, you'd rather he be on your side.

>>95862615
It's also specifically using not 5E. It's the showcase mini campaign for their own system that the cast still couldn't be bothered to learn the rules for.

>>95837324
I hope you get saved anon, it's never to late to repent and accept God's love and forgiveness.

>>95864208
why your particular god though? why not any other of the myriad of faiths with their own rich traditions that those believers will defend to their death and dedicate their entire lives to? Unless you're selling some universal Pan-theism of some kind where all spiritual tradions are valid, then no.

>>95863886
You can argue that Abrahamic religion began along similar lines as well. The Covenant with God in the Old Testament is phrased the same way as treaties between the Neo-Assyrian Empire and its vassals.

>>95865017
Well and if you wanna get into it, he was just one member of the Canaanite pantheon that formed in the exact same way as every other pantheon, and what we call "monotheism" only exists 'cuz one king in the 8th century bce said "hey here's an idea: what if instead of all these gods you pay sacrifices/taxes to, from now on you only pay sacrifices and taxes to me, instead?"

>>95837333
It's not surprising that places that went "Fuck the church" continued to the logical conclusion of "Fuck the religion in general".

>>95837730
Go'auld could do that too, through more easily understood technological means. Ori did the same thing the System Lords did, except with ascended powers instead of tangible tech (hell, even their basic troops were pretty similar, except Ori staff weapons were pointy and their zat'nik'tel wasn't a dick).

>>95862840
To be fair, Greek (and other) gods were acting like regular human assholes with superpowers.

>>95863251
What is this knowledge thing you keep talking about? A god is an extension of the people who worship it and embodies their beliefs and how they see the world, both good and bad.

I wouldn't want to give my worship to someone like Zeus but clearly the way he behaved and did things was in keeping with the times. (Maybe, who knows how much shit is altered or left out or lost to time).

I also assume you must be referring to something specific because not everyone is going out giving their prayers and tithes for some esoteric knowledge only a cosmic bum can provide.

>>95849807
sort of the reverse; the nerds were the ones who could not only tell you what the teleological argument was offhand but would have like ten pages of responses of pre canned forum post responses for it saved somewhere. fedoralords were (are?) basically the same as the people who wear these shirts: normie phoneposters on reddit and twitter.

the antidote to them is probably the thing that Bill Gates and the rest were talking about back in the day: end free-as-in-beer online posting and charge a postage deposit for every email or comment, which the recipient has the option to collect. means people will only post if they're really serious about what they want to say

>>95862066
>Irregardless

>>95865706
>>95863886
>>95865584
>What is this knowledge thing you keep talking about?
It's very hard to explain and very subjective and wishy-washy, but I'll try. Despite their historical context of how they were actually perceived by their worshippers which I can't comment on since i don't know enough about it, I can only express how certain myths and the way certain media portray these gods invoke a feeling of mystery and transcendence which implies that the gods are onto some shit that you, me and other mortals are not, even if they also have mortal tendencies and qualities at the same time, and it is this portrayal that I have a deep preference for and want to see in media..

The myths' portrayal of how Odin hanged himself on the tree to gain knowledge only he knows and the way he has a hundred names shrouds him in mystery and awe that gets associated with transcendent things. Not a pedestrian "Give me the moral code for every day life please", but rather if you can gleam that transcendence which is Odin through places of awe, prayer, esoteric practicies, meditation, visions, certain events aligning in your life,whatever; you then see the world more for what it is in that state, and you associate this feeling with beings like Odin, for it is pointing to the same feeling you get when you are in the presence of something greater than you, meet that transcendence. This feeling is asociated with something good an aspirational, even if it's not in the ten commandments type of way, because it's like you're aligned.
And this isn't diminished simply because Odin also has very mundane mortal goals of power, political rivalry and so on. In other words, these "asshole gods" live in both transcendent perfect states at the same time as they have their mortal qualities.

A n example of failure of this portrayal is Odin in GoW:Ragnarok who just became a powerful dude and lost all associations and implications of transcendence and awe,

>>95869092
Odin was involved in a lot of stuff that would have been considered weird for a king to emulate, like the whole sorcery and self-hanging thing. Stuff was sacrificed to him for battle-luck, but there's also a story of him appearing in the chariot of a chieftain when he's paid his respects and winning a battle and killing him when he begs for more time because war is like that.

>>95843238
>he fell for the 2k yo pro-roman propaganda
Sad!

>>95832069 (OP)
>Atheism is the only morally defensible position in fantasy
He is a retarded Californian

>>95851413
>The "gods" don't even do their jobs
Wrong

I'ld make a comment on Eating Gods, but that might be a little too on the nose in some ways.

>>95832069 (OP)
am I supposed to know or care who this faggot is or what his faggoty opinions are?

Reminder that his real name is miller not mercer

>>95832069 (OP)
Atheism is not the same thing as Antitheism or Misotheism anon.
An atheist in a fantasy setting would be what we call a "Retard", because they're objectively, Provably wrong about gods not existing.

>>95873532
The new atheists fedoracore atheism that we all have lived under for the last 20 years is interchangable with antitheism, with the whole "I am enlightened by my own intellect" and proudly making arguments about how evil gods are for letting suffering go on in the world, so even if they existed they wouldn't worship them etc.
and they're right, they just simply got bodied in matters of optics and had the worst representatives, so now we have to suffer through christian larpers and have no serious discussions about religion because it's all just strawman lol you're a fedora shit

>>95832069 (OP)
I always thought it was pretty batshit how many times the concept of killing God showed up in JRPGs and anime. It wasn't until fairly recently that I realized the default mindset that a lot of Japanese creators have when envisioning a solitary creator deity is that it is the Demiurge and then the repeated use of killing God as a plot device made a helluva lot more sense.

>>95871635
all the muh honor bloodfeud stuff with holmgangs feels overstated considering how nasty and backstabby their chief god was. Like that time he tricked a bunch of slaves to cut each other down with their scythes that he sharpened for them. So either it was that he was in fact morally dubious to the norse people, or it was just a case of if it's done to the outgroup it's alright and even encouraged to do sneaky trickery and why things like raiding and cutting down defenseless monks wasn't seen as dishonorable

>>95875233
who taught them that though? gnosticism isn't exactly mainstream, and missionaries have been hard at work spreading above board christianity in that part of the world for since 500 years ago

The only time "athiest in fantasy setting" was the dwemer in morrowind. Everythinf else is just mentally stunted manchildren.

>>95875584
>The only fantasy I can reference is video game lore
>I'm so mature

>>95875253
I think this question goes real, real deep. Because for whatever reason, a lot of cults and denominations keep independently re-inventing gnosticism. JWs and Christian Scientists come to mind.

I think what they have in common is that they view the world as we experience it as evil and imperfect. Ergo, the conclusion they come to is that in order for that to be compatible with a benevolent creator God, our common reality must be the product of a lesser cosmic figure.

I'm just spitballing, but I think this attitude (which can easily be formed independently even in atheists and agnostics) is where this trope stems from.

>>95836333
>I'll give you magic powers if you spread the word about how cool I am
Tyranny!

>>95832431
He's too much of a faggot to be addressed via his name and surname and is one of the many, many reasons DnD is a shit entry-tier nigger game.

>>95832069 (OP)
In my 5th ed game, as this is what I play, sorry gods are treated as they would be in real life, and there is religious heterodoxy and ambiguity. I also play the fact that the society in the fucking setting is in fact pre-Enlightenment and highly religious across most countries, thus religion has a natural place in the social system. Atheism is rare as it'd be retarded to deny miraculous power when people can use their sheer power of will to summon columns of burning light. Also gods rarely have a clear "will" and it's often either the government or any church-as-government doing cringe in their name, often with followers of one deity or set of deities fighting over what their will is. But then again this thread was made to piss me and other anons off, wasn't it?

>>95875253
>>95876192
A singular all powerful god is literally an outlier amongst most myth and religions. It's not hard to envision foul play based on this one guy coming along with his big new religion getting uppity and instantly declaring his religion is the only true one, and all other gods are false.

>>95876815
>A singular all powerful god is literally an outlier amongst most myth and religions.
Not particularly. "Monotheism" is a nonsense term. It's mindless virtue-signaling. It's a way of picking out an utterly meaningless difference and saying "well we're special 'cuz we're different in this way." Also Abrahamic religions were never "monotheistic" until the renaissance, and it was a term invented specifically to denigrate Muslims and Jews.

>>95876996
>Also Abrahamic religions were never "monotheistic" until the renaissance
wut. hasn't it been monotheistic since the OT dropped?

>>95882839
Nope. The Hebrew bible isn't monotheistic at all. It names other gods, has them performing miracles, and has Yhwh directly interacting with them. Because the ancient religion of Judah and Israel was the same ancient religion of the rest of Canaan. Their god was just one of those gods, because all the city-states had patrons, just like everywhere else. In the 7th century, one king decided "hey what if instead of you making sacrifices at all these different temples... you only did it at mine and I got to speak for the only god you're allowed to worship, from now on?" Then the Babylonian captivity began and ended with the Persian period and suddenly the Hebrew god mysteriously picks up a ton of Zoroastrian characteristics. Then the 2nd temple gets destroyed and Christians and Jews become a diaspora and all of a sudden you've got a buncha influence from Greek philosophy and the Hebrew god sure starts looking a lot like the "Prime Mover." Then in the 4th century CE, Rome decides "what if we just say 'only this one god counts so that we can consolidate power like that other guy did?'" Then, eventually, in the 17th century, some guy says "what if we say our religion is fundamentally different from all those silly superstitions, because we've only got 1 god?" While, by the way, his religion still explicitly states that the trinity is real so there are 3 gods, plus tons of angels and saints and demons and the devil ("But those aren't gods!" Guess how many different words get translated into English as "god" for religions in which they were lesser beings? I dunno either but it's a shit-ton). And boom: that's monotheism. It's a false dichotomy. It's a distinction without a difference. It's just a way for Western civilization to say "well, our type of religion is fundamentally different from all your silly superstitions."

Thank you for taking the bait and enabling my educational rant.

>>95832069 (OP)
I had a player who thought like this in every game once. Got annoying to the point I made the most recent setting have 3 tiers of gods, and the one he specifically chose to get angry about were the metaplane ones which are doing the very unoriginal thing of being the Expy of the players and myself. He didn't pick up on it until he carelessly killed "himself" when "himself" couldn't respond back to his God Test questions, and was then asked to leave the table as his character ceased to exist without a puppetmaster to pilot the meatsuit. Dunno if he'll come back, It was pretty funny regardless.

>>95883286
Sounds retarded
>DUDE its like....so friggin META your PCs know theyre just FICTIONAL CHARACTERS being PUPPETED DUUUUUUDE NOTHING MATTERS BROOO ITS ALL JUST SPACE DUST

>>95883509
It matters as much as they want it to though

>>95832069 (OP)
>all gods suck ass actually
Wasn't this present in most of the settings in the Daggerheart book as well?

Not any of the anons arguing here, but I think at least two objective truths can be gleamed through all this.
>1: humans are uniquely intelligent creatures
>2: a part of that intelligence is predisposed, unavoidably*, to religious beliefs, even in atheists/agnostics
There's my serious post on this chinese weaving board.

*Unavoidably, because everyone will inevitably take on religious thought processes.
>We were created, the Bible says so!
>No we weren't, The God Delusion says so!
>Trust in prayer/faith.
>Trust in science/reason.
and so on.

>>95883991
>objective truths
No. No no no. Humans do seem to pre predisposed to assigning agency to the changes we observe in the experiencial world around us. But to take that so far as to say it's "an objective truth" is WELL beyond anything we can demonstrate. And to claim "therefore religion" does not follow even a little bit at all.

>>95862634
Nice psyop, rabbi.

>>95884138
I didn't say religion was an objective truth, I said that predisposition to religious thinking is an objective trait in human behavior. It doesn't mean religion itself is valid or invalid, true or false, or whatever, it just means that even in isolation human beings will develop religious-style thinking patterns.

>>95862634
>Interesting then that Jesus doesn't fulfill any of the messianic requirements given in the old testament
Anyone who has read the Bible would know that Jesus has fulfilled several prophecies, Psalms 22 and Isaiah 53 being prime examples. You're either ignorant or making a sad attempt at bait.

>>95884159
Yes I understand what you said. You are flatly wrong.
>that predisposition to religious thinking is an objective trait in human behavior.
That's laughably misguided and I don't think you know what the word "objective" means. Absolutely not. No: you cannot say that. There is zero evidence to support it. Flatly none.

You can say that humans tend to come up with explanations for the world around us that assigns agency to things in the world around us. But that it's "objectively" true that humans "will develop religious-style thinking" is total nonsense. That's a weak pattern you've inferred (or abducted, if you're a fan of Pierce). Not an "objective truth."

>>95884186
>You can say that humans tend to come up with explanations for the world around us that assigns agency to things in the world around us
That is religious thinking. Assigning functions and aspects of what we observe to unseen forces we need to trust it. Whether it's a god, gods, spirits, the unseen powers of a god-king, or science.

>There is zero evidence to support it. Flatly none.
Even the most basic psychological observations show that we are automatically inclined to adapt religious thinking, in this case (my definition) being the concept of applying explanations or agency to things around us in ways that necessitate personal trust and validation.

>>95884225
>That is religious thinking.
You are wildly, blithely, and meaninglessly redefigning what virtually everyone means by "religion."
>Even the most basic psychological observations show that we are automatically inclined to adapt religious thinking, in this case (my definition) being the concept of applying explanations or agency to things around us in ways that necessitate personal trust and validation.
You've abstracted a rule from all of your "observations." That's not an "objective truth." It's a hypothesis. It's a weak inference.

>>95832069 (OP)
This is just as cringe as atheists complaining about Christians.

>>95884246
"you're dumb" is not an argument.

>>95884336
And it's not the argument I made, either. Your failure to know what the difference between an "objective truth" and "a weak inference" is isn't my fault. I'm not your teacher.

If you'd like an example of why your definition of "religion" is fucking stupid:

When Daddy yelled at Sally, it wasn't a religious belief that led Sally to think that Daddy was angry with her. It was the evolution of Sally's brain that allows her to pick up on social cues. When Sally heard thunder and therefore thought that the clouds were angry with her, that wasn't religious thinking, either. It was just Sally being wrong 'cuz she's a dipshitand doesn't know what thunder is.

>>95884353
>When Sally heard thunder and therefore thought that the clouds were angry with her, that wasn't religious thinking, either. It was just Sally being wrong 'cuz she's a dipshitand doesn't know what thunder is.
No, that's religious thinking in action, just as her being told it's a scientific process is her putting personal trust in something that she doesn't factually know or have any way of ever knowing.

>>95884369
You're trying to call the basic function of human beings' brains to identify social cues "religious thinking." That's a fucking retarded definition of what "religious" means and absolutely no one, anywhere, ever, would ever buy into such a moronic definition.

>>95884382
Thinking clouds are angry when there's thunder or that a god is pleased with you when the sun's out and your crops grow is not picking up on social cues, it's religious thinking.

Believing the world was made by a god because you read the Bible is religious thinking. Believing there are no gods because you read Dawkins is religious thinking.

>>95884401
You redefinition is utterly ridiculous nonsense. Sure man: go on with thinking you're right if people only agree with your re-definition. Enjoy. See if you can find anyone stupid enough to do so.

>>95884401
>Thinking clouds are angry when there's thunder or that a god is pleased with you when the sun's out and your crops grow
You have a material concept of who God is. You should read more before making dumb statements online.

>>95885765
That is the most common concept of God among the people and historically it is likely the oldest and most natural as it's derives from the human tendency towards anthropomorphism and projection
The immaterial and abstracted concept of God is something quite recent and came as an attempt of rationalize the idea of the divine and make it fit with advances in our understanding of the world

>>95875253
Well, Japan had a weird court system too. In a way, they are just retelling their own history.

Having a position in government was considered the same as having a position in the heavenly hierarchy. If you died, you go to heaven as someone important and whatever. You are no longer a man. You are considered among the gods. Though not usually a high ranking one. Getting promoted? Same as becoming a higher ranking diety. I think you get the idea. Slaying your current government, for being massively corrupt, thus became the same as slaying your current gods.

But this also then made you the new gods because you are the government now. And the cycle begins again.

>>95884178
>Jesus quotes Psalm 22 therefore that's a messianic prophecy!
Not how it works bucko
The messiah literally needs to create world peace, be a male lineage descendant of David, build the third temple, have a male heir, etc. The fact Jesus' father is God literally means he can't be the messiah
It's fine if the son of God thing should supersede any prophecies but don't act like we live in world peace where "they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more"

>>95882839
First Temple Judaism is better described as henotheistic (there are other gods, but the Israelites are only supposed to worship this one), and scholars tend to refer to Israelite religion in this era as Yahwism to distinguish it from modern Judaism. You still see some scattered artifacts of Canaanite religion in some parts, and stuff like the Golden Calf might just be an earlier form of Yahweh worship that fell out of favor.

>>95863077

Ed Greenwood is a failed creator that largely has his world made better by far better creators.

The thing that makes forgotten realms so good is it has had events written in it that are at the very best output for fantasy writing. The setting itself is a mishmash but they're a lot of stories in it that you would love.

read Mel Odom's 'Threat by the sea' books.

>>95885870
>The immaterial and abstracted concept of God is something quite recent

Recent in geological terms but it goes back at least to classical philosophy

>>95886867
Classical philosophy is recent in terms of history of civilization, and the adoption of God as an abstraction among common people is even more recent

>>95875253
The Buddhist. When Shintoism was being replaced by Buddhism the religious began to question the nature of the kami. The Buddhist answer was that the shinto Kami were manifestation of Buddhist deities that tried to help the Japanese. This was based apocryphal words by Buddha that in the Latter Days he would return and save all beings.

>>95883170
Anon...

Israel started worshiping the false idols of Canaan in defiance of the God of Israel that freed them from Egypt. Were EXPLICITELY WARNED not to leave a single native of those lands alive lest they fall into their ways in turn and be condemned in turn. Which they did leave them alive because they wanted a servant class to serve them. Then started to worship the false idols of their slaves. Just as God said they would. Then became condemned in turn for doing it. Just as the people of Canaan were condemned. This is not an educational rant. You've merely lied about how history went.

Also, the Trinity is just one GOD. If this confuses you, consider GOD is allowed and capable to be as many persons at once as He wants, and they'd all be fully GOD. Nothing is impossible for GOD nothing. God made what we know as existing in the first place, after all. He is not bound by time, space, or matter. Systems he preexisted AND made from scratch.

Jesus the Christ is that same GOD of Israel. Come in the flesh to die for sin on the cross, get buried, and resurrected on the third day. Israel rejected Christ at the time because they had already rejected that same GOD before that.

>>95832069 (OP)
>Atheism is the only morally defensible position in fantasy.
wrong, it's least viable position in fantasy
unless your fntasy has no Gods from the beginning

>>95882839
Even today it's only arbitrarily Monotheistic because Angels and Saints are indistinguishable from lesser deities.

>>95876177
The fucked up thing is it's not even video game lore because none of the interesting lore ever made it into the games.

>>95832069 (OP)
>>95832188
>>95837324
Relax, you're all trash.

>>95888515
Nah, op's right. Copying Time of Troubles and doing it completely wrong because you're an atheist is cringeworthy and deserves ridicule.
but the ones who say "christuck" are all newfags who must have never left reddit and need to come back immediately.

>>95887630
>Apologetics
Ah. You're so cute.

>>95876177
I'll make sure to read some fantasy slop like harry potter and discworld to broaden my horizon you blind faggot

>>95889212
That'd be a great start, anon. Put down the controller, pick up a book, learn punctuation.

>>95887630
You’re putting too much emphasis on a literal interpretation of the Biblical narrative, even when it flies in the face of evidence. The Israelites weren’t outsiders who came into Canaan, they’re the weird hill tribes that didn’t eat pork who happened to spread from the central highlands during the Bronze Age Collapse. There’s no evidence that the Exodus happened the way it’s told, though the story itself seems to be old enough that it could be multiple stories of smaller migrations woven together, and migrations between Canaan and Egypt were common enough both before and after to make that plausible.

>>95862904
>>95863111
It's amazing how shit Destiny became when it was never exactly good in the first place.

Anyone who likes Critical Role is a NIGGER

>>95889810
BASED

>>95832069 (OP)
>>95832188
>watch soi-addled californoids play pretend
>be surprised that they act like soi-addled californoids
What exactly were you expecting, anon?

>>95832188
>Forced to become mortal
>Under threat of death
That doesn't make any sense at all. If they're not mortal, how can you use death to threaten them? If you can use death to threaten them then they're not immortal by definition.

>>95889862
>Jealousy rears its neckbeard
Stay mad fly-overs.

>>95889869
Immortality, indestructability, invulnerability and endlessness are sometimes used interchangeably making things a mess. In many fantasy settings gods are endless, meaning they are immortal against natural causes like time and diseases, but are still killable by strategically applied violence.

And sometimes not even diseases considering divine disease is a trope somewhere.

>>95889810
fucking based

>>95832069 (OP)
I mean the majority of FR gods are certainly not worth worshiping. Almost every single one is either actively malicious or complicit in monstrous crimes. The wall of the faithless is only one in a long, looooong list of crimes against the people of Faerun.
As far as PF is concerned, the only god there worth dealing with is Desna, because at least she is willing to throw hands for her followers. Might have something to do with not technically being a goddess in the strictest sense but rather some weird outside context creature.

>>95889978
Don't you have a small business to burn and loot, Pedro?

>>95890075
>the majority of FR gods are certainly not worth worshiping.
True. Just Loviatar. All false idols must be destroyed.

>>95886770
>>95883170
I never get how religious people can be so into their own religion and claim that it's the only right one when it's very clear that the religion didn't just spring up fully formed, instead having evolved over time and picking up aspects from other religions.

Fedoracuks were so destructive that people overcorrected and just put their head in the sand and will just swallow religious dogma wholesale because it's less cringe than some internet meme, strange times.

>>95890596
Kys godless niqqa sybau

>>95888439
this is just tryhard semantics. Anyone can distinguish between a creator god and its servants and a poytheistic set of gods who are family who share in creation. There's an obvious difference.

>>95890634
alright, but if the other guy who's not godless but worships the wrong religion is better, then he's still wrong according to your faith, don't you see that juan

>>95890596
Ironically, it's a modern notion that the bible is the infallible word of god. Throughout most of history, Christians and Jews understood that these were a variety of books written by a variety of people for a variety of audiences. They acknowledged that different books said different things and frequently contradict one another. It wasn't until the 19th century that the notion that it's the infallible word of their god really picks up steam.

>>95890596
True, but it also shows that there's something about religion that's universal to human behavior, contrary to said fedoracucks who insist all religion just started from a couple of guys wanting to con people.

>>95890635
It's not, actually. Critical scholarship has lately really turned on the notion of monotheism. Which never existed in the Hebrew bible and only appears in Abrahamic thought as a result of the introduction of Greek philosophy. It also doesn't really meet its final form until some time in the 17th century and, at that time, it's literally intended as a polemic tool specifically leveled against Muslims and Jews (who worship the same god but in a different way). It was always a false dichotomy invented for the sole purpose of colonialists saying "our type of religion is fundementally different from other types." Except theirs never has been. Claims about supernatural forces controlling the universe are pretty much equal, and "well, what if we redefine our terms and say that all their religions have lots of gods, and ours only has one. It's different then, right?" Nope.

>>95890635
Dude half the pantheons out there don't even claim their gods made the world.
From the ones who are like "Yeah everything came from the sea" to the ones who are like "Our gods killed the guys who made everything" to the "The land is literally made of monsters and we have to feed it blood regularly or it will start eating people"

A lot of them go as far as to suppose the universe always existed, because the universe has to exist before a deity can exist within it logically. Only the mega retard religions are like "Our god created itself!'

>>95890683
Nope. There's something fundamental about human beings that tries to identify agency in the world around us. Sometimes that turns into religions. But given how few religions there are, and the fact that all of them have to be taught, is a pretty fuckin' good indicator that your hypothesis about it being "universal" is a massive failure of your pretty bad, arm-chair psychology and attempt to redefine what "religion" means into a word that not even you can recognize, any more.

>>95890683
Religion isn't a human behavior, we can train birds and pigs to be religious too.
If you give enough miracles to a bird, you can get it to do fuckin' whatever you want, really.

>>95890709
>But given how few religions there are, and the fact that all of them have to be taught
I don't think you have any understanding of human history, even slightly, outside of something Richard Dawkins wrote.

>>95890725
I don't care what you think and your weak-ass insults don't change the fact that I'm right.

>>95890725
Not that anon, but I gotta say, that shit applies to you way more.
You don't even know about any other pantheons. Hell, you didn't even know the greek creation myth.

>>95890717
Reward behavior isn't religion. The pigs and crows don't have abstract, metaphysical concepts of existence and the world's functions.

>>95890683
>there's something about religion that's universal to human behavior
YES, but no one ever picks up the discussion from there. It's alwas just dunking on atheists and insisting that your own religion whose doctrine completely excludes all other religions is the correct one, and then when called out on this, it's always "Oh, but we have the correct interpretation" said in complete hubris. There's zero moves to try and get to something universal and pantheist and present it as an argument to the non-believing masses.

>>95890739
>that's not religion
of course it is. There's no difference.
>The pigs and crows don't have abstract, metaphysical concepts of existence and the world's functions.
Prove it.

>>95890739
You can't have a conept of metaphysics until you have a concept of physics. Which means that the version of "religion" you're arguing for don't start until after science, and exist only to fill in its gaps until we learn more about the world around us. Your inferences about human behavior are not very good.

>>95890749
Because everyone knows their religion is factually wrong and couldn't possibly be the actually correct one, as they all came long after whoever made the world made it.

>>95890750
>of course it is. There's no difference.
Believe what you want then.
>>95890753
>You can't have a conept of metaphysics until you have a concept of physics. Which means that the version of "religion" you're arguing for don't start until after science
Hilariously bad take. It's fine that you're an atheist, but this is a shit take over semantics. Crows and pigs don't have the conceptualization of unseen/higher forces that work in the world, and the pattern of engagement in honor/fear/devotion/appeasement of said forces, or traditions based on the concept of having an immortal, immaterial spirit inside them.

>>95890773
>Crows and pigs don't have the conceptualization of unseen/higher forces that work in the world, and the pattern of engagement in honor/fear/devotion/appeasement of said forces, or traditions based on the concept of having an immortal, immaterial spirit inside them.
You're (poorly) trying to argue that "religion" is "anthropomorphic empathy." That's not a definition of "religion" that exists anywhere in the world. No serious person holds it. You've tried to gin it up as a laughable rhetorical model to defend your ego over having your nonsense claims ass-blasted in this thread.

Also? The best neoruscientists on planet Earth have no fucking clue what pigs and crows (which do have language) do and don't conceptualize, but we're pretty sure that they have IQs at least equal to humans during childhood.

Just stop, anon. You clearly aren't educated or equipped to participate in the conversation you're trying to hold court on.

>>95890771
>religion is factually wrong
Prove it.

>>95890773
>Crows and pigs don't have the conceptualization of unseen/higher forces that work in the world
Prove it.

>But their traditions
No, we've gotten them to do it multigenerationally after only one or two generations of training and then stopping conditioning.

>>95890783
>That's not a definition of "religion" that exists anywhere in the world. No serious person holds it.
No one holds that the definition of religion is a reward mechanism like giving a dog a treat, except some militant atheists who themselves use "science" and speakers of it as their religion.

>>95890784
It's a timeline issue.
Whoever created the world did it WAY before humans, and, thus, all systems invented by them are wrong.
The only one that could possibly be true is the first religion, which would have fossil evidence predating humanity if it existed. Which is what we should be looking for.

>>95890800
We absolutely observe ritual behavior in non-human animals including pigs, crows and, most notably, bonobos. If you're wholly and entirely unfamiliar with the actual information that we have on these topics, why are you so insistent that your nonsense is a valuable contribution to the discussion?

>>95890800
You literally got conditioned by one generation of rewards and then continued doing as trained like pidgeons.
This isn't even like, an insult, this is your account of what happened.

>>95890785
>conditioning
This falls apart because it can't explain the initial formation of religious beliefs or why humans are so susceptible to them. Some isolated tribe in the Pacific who never even left their island but show signs of religious/spiritual traditions was not a matter of "conditioning", and it's baseless to suggest that all of the thousands or more religious/spiritual beliefs and traditions that have existed throughout history all sprang up for no other reason than some dudes got together and thought it'd be cool to trick some people into following them.

>>95890820
>it can't explain the formation of religious beliefs
Yes it can, that's what these studies were designed for.
One of the ones I really liked gave the birds food randomly. The birds all rapidly started developing superstitious behavior, trying to simulate whatever they did when the food arrived.
When you get them into a group, they pass this superstition along to each other, and to their descendants, long after the good food rewards stop and you leave them with only the poor tasting food.

>>95890820
>Some isolated tribe in the Pacific who never even left their island but show signs of religious/spiritual traditions was not a matter of "conditioning", and it's baseless to suggest that all of the thousands or more religious/spiritual beliefs and traditions that have existed throughout history all sprang up for no other reason than some dudes got together and thought it'd be cool to trick some people into following them.
You flatly have no familiarity with the topic you're trying to discuss.

The most common method of religious development looks like this:
>Person sees A thing happen
>Does X thing
>Good results
>Continues doing X thing when sees A thing happen

It's literally pavlovian. And it's the fundamental model for the development of religious behavior in all human beings.

Again: if you have not a clue what you're talking about it, why are you so dead-set on talking about it?

>>95890816
We aren't running off the same definition of what ritual behavior is. Ritual not in the sense of a learned, repeated behavior, but ritual in the sense of "perform an action that in the abstract sense will bring you favor from something intangible."

>>95890817
You can't tell a dog you'll give it a treat one day and have it understand you and obey you with the hope it'll one day get that treat, you have to give it a treat. Religion isn't a reward behavior because the rewards it promises aren't immediate and tangible, regardless of tradition. You sacrifice a goat to hope it rains, not expecting an immediate downpour.

>>95890844
I meant "model," not "method." Not that the anon I'm responding to has the slightest idea what the difference is.

>>95890853
You'd be surprised the degree of bullshit behavior an animal will do with no treat.
Pidgeons, for instance, will do whatever their superstitious behavior is (spinning, hopping, standing on one foot, specific bob patterns) long after treats stop.

>>95890853
>We aren't running off the same definition of what ritual behavior is.
You're right: I understand what "ritual behavior" refers to, and you do not.

>You can't tell a dog you'll give it a treat one day and have it understand you and obey you
Yeah wow: dogs don't speak very much English. What a fuckin' insight. Some stop the god damn presses and put this man on the front page.

>>95890749
Most religious people literally walk around believing that their fellow men and women who believe just as much as them but in the wrong doctrine will go to hell, but are too comfortable to confront them in order to save them, or too comfortable to confront themselves about the fact that the fact that they're not constantly going around trying to convert their fellow man to stop them from suffering in hell perhaps means that they don't really believe it in their heart and knowit's crap on some level, because the onyl thing that really makes sense is that either there's a universal faith or there is none at all. But nah, it doesn't give me the feelsies, so I'll keep doing nothing.
Not to mention the cognitive dissonance people od where they only perform rites to be seen by other people doing it, and not confronting themselves about how fucked that is considering the creator of the universe is supposedly watching them, so it's not like they can hide from it. It makes zero sense.Most people literally only have a vague spiritual impulse but don't really live for their beliefs at all. Dunking on non-believers and heretics just makes them feel good about themelves, that is all.

>>95890833
>>95890858
A study that subjectively interpreted behavior as "superstitious" and relied on external engagement to start. Religions have sprung up without any external pressure internally within communities and have resulted in behavior that is blatantly superstitious as we comprehend it. Big difference.

>>95890844
>The most common method of religious development looks like this:
If you're specifically looking at religion through the lens of a militant atheist. When all you have is a hammer, everything will look like a nail.

You keep insisting religion is a reward mechanism ala Dawkins, when no religion or spiritual tradition I can think of has ever offered an immediate and tangible reward for their behavior, the integral part of a reward mechanism. You can't write a rat an IOU for cheese at some indeterminate point in the future and hope it'll take your word for it.

>>95890877
>If you're specifically looking at religion through the lens of a militant atheist.
No, I'm looking at it through the lens of cognitive science. Which is what all the schoalrs in the field look at it through. Who I've read some of. Hence know what I'm talking about. Instead of trying to invent ever more tortured rhetorical models on the internet to avoid admitting I'm wrong. Which is what you're doing.

>when no religion or spiritual tradition
Wow hold on. So you're telling me that dogs don't speak much English, AND religious people are dishonest about the origin of their religious traditions?

You're blowin this whole thing wide open, anon! What a scholar you are!

>>95890862
You're anthropomorphizing the birds and assuming their behavior is indicative of something you don't know. It's like how some people think fish jerk away from stimuli, like hooks, because they feel pain, when we've found out largely fish lack the same types of pain receptors in humans, so the reaction's more of a stress or pressure-based sensation. Yet because we don't understand that and don't share their physiology, we wrongly assumed it was pain.

Gorillas doing sign language is a similar phenomenon.

>>95890867
It's dubious and unproven assumptions like these that lead people to believe fedora-tipping atheists are so obnoxious.

>>95890883
>everyone who is religious is dishonest and every origin of religion is dishonest
Why? Because you say so? Because you read The God Delusion and now treat it like your Bible or Quran? Militant atheists have no further proof for their assertions than militant theists. You believe something or were told to believe it, so you believe it and insist everyone else is wrong but you.

>>95890901
Jesus anon. The "fish don't feel pain" thing was debunked decades ago. Just how ignorant are you?

>>95890916
Treating science as an unchanging concept and assuming that things can be debunked or invalidated by a single example is one of the funniest things about fedoratheism. Treating science like a religion.

>>95890913
>Thinks he's scoring points by claiming that I'm an aetheist
I mean hell anon. I'd be surprised if you'd read a single chapter of any of those three books.

>>95890877
>>95890901
All we're doing is giving the birds food randomly.
Really, all you need is to have a good 3 or 4 coincidences and then that shit is locked in for months. And if it's rewarded again, that shit aint going away.

This shit probably happens in nature all the time, though it's hard to tell what is an animal fad and what is animal religious behavior. Were the whales wearing dead seal scraps as hats a fashion statement, or is does this have some kind of significance otherwise?

>>95890913
>atheists have no more proof
Logically incorrect, as their supposition requires only one step (the universe exists) and yours requires two steps (A man exists, who then made the universe).

Even without any evidence at all for either side, the atheists would still be correct here by occam's razor.

>>95890928
It was debunked by decades-long studies and preponderance of evidence. Yes, anon: science is capable of debunking claims that are false. The claim that fish don't feel pain is false. It was debunked decades ago by evidence. That you didn't know that demonstrates that you're woefully poorly educated. It's an incredibly well-known example used in virtually all introductory books on cognitive science. You'd have known it if you'd ever read one.

>>95890928
Anon, the entire point of science is that it admits when it's wrong.
So it can go from a stance of fishes don't feel pain to one where they think they do, based on evidence acquired.

Or vice versa, if we find out fish don't feel pain somehow.

>>95890947
>as their supposition requires only one step (the universe exists) and yours requires two steps (A man exists, who then made the universe)
Atheistic suppositions require two steps: there is a universe, and its aspects are exclusively material.

Theistic suppositions require two steps: there is a universe, and some or all of its aspects are immaterial.

Neither can be objectively proven by any methods currently available to us, and to insist either is factual is objectively incorrect.

>>95890901
>dubious and unproven assumptions
yeah, easier to just dismiss it as obnoxious than facing how exclusionary your beliefs really are relating to your fellow man and to try and resolve it.

>>95890974
>Atheistic suppositions require two steps: there is a universe, and its aspects are exclusively material.

No it doesn't. Stop putting words into my mouth, you dishonest son of a bitch.

>>95890965
>>the entire point of science is that it admits when it's wrong.
>>science
>>admits when it's wrong.
>laughs in wu flu

captcha: KKKRP

>>95890982
>>95890974
There's a lot of things that atheists agree exists that aren't material.
Like mathematics. There is not a particle or wave of mathematics in the cosmos, yet it's all around us.

>>95890990
But evidence keeps mounting that the panic about the shots were wrong, and that the consequences of any variant of vaccine are near identical to the consequences of getting the disease.

>>95890974
>>95890982
lol, christfags go to lying first thing every time.

>>95890977
>how exclusionary your beliefs really are relating to your fellow man and to try and resolve it
Because enforcing atheism and eradicating religion has proven so inclusive and helpful to mankind.

>>95891014
You say this while suckling all of your advancements from a secular state.

>>95890996
Exactly, and for years and to the present day saying that will get you accused of denying science and spreading misinformation.

>>95890982
>>95890991
Atheists believe that everything is quantifiable and observable via science, and there is no element to existence that is spiritual or otherwise wholly intangible from the perspective of materialism. There is no spirit, no soul, all emotion and thought is based on chemical reactions alone, and there are no gods or other immaterial beings in existence.

Theists suppose the opposite of these things, and in both cases there is no way of conclusively proving or denying the claims of either group. Chill atheists and theists are fine with that, they don't insist on themselves or try to force others to agree with them. Militant atheists and theists are not cool.

>>95890996
>>95891045
>Exactly, and for years and to the present day saying that will get you accused of denying science and spreading misinformation.
Exactly as in, exactly, science will not admit that it's wrong, and in the face of evidence to the contrary will continue to insist that it was right all along.

>>95891014
>jumps straight to communism
kek, I didn't think americucks really were like their christian talk radio shows make them out to be, but maybe it's more common than one would be led to believe.

>>95890749
people don't want universal truth, they want to feel like they're sitting on the truth, while others are not. the only difference is that some of these clubs are extra sekrett and speshul and are called cults, and the others are larger and more accepted for this reason, but they still preach beliefs that imply that everyone else is wrong while never confronting those groups. honestly, all respect to the JWs and mormons with active conversion, at least they take the implications of their faith seriously and actually confront people.

>>95891014
Who said anything about enforcing atheism? We're talking about universal spiritual faith to reconcile the fact that across the globe there are people with rich thousand year old spiritual traditions of people who have had adherents who have believed in their own tradition so much they've moved mountains and sacrificed their lives for it and pondered its meaning just as much as you believe in your own faith and tradition. It can't just come down to where you're born and what religion is assigned to you at birth or one that's availible to you in your local to join that determines what's right. You must see how bonkers this is.

>>95891045
>Atheists believe that everything is quantifiable and observable via science

Atheist here. No I don't, because it's demonstrably impossible to quantify and observe, for example, my precise opinion on a cinnamon bun that I ate 10 years ago.

>>95891251
Yeah one guy in this thread has done nothing but try to redefine every concept he can get his hands halfway around, then proclaim "I'm right if you accept my new definition."

>I ruin everyone's campaign with my pro-atheism obsession because I BELIEVE IN SCIENCE AND FACTS
huh

>>95891380
>Said no one anywhere ever
huh

>>95891392
only about 40 posts now

>>95891438
>If I put it in greentext it's true
>Because it's impossible that anyone on 4chan knows what a strawman is
Good luck with that.

>>95891506
good job defeating your own argument, dummy

>>95891251
>No I don't, because it's demonstrably impossible to quantify and observe
So is the lack of existence of a god(s) or the validity/invalidity of religion(s).

>>95891623
>Make positive claim
>Have no evidence
>Ask for negative proof
Got 'em! I mean... as long as "'em" are retards.

>>95891633
>le positive evidence fallacy
Atheists should call anyone who ever claims intelligent life may exist on other planets a retard then. Since there's no evidence of intelligent life anywhere else, that means there is no intelligent life anywhere else... as long as you're using Reddit Atheist logic.

>le spaghetti monster fallacy
Again, intelligent life. Both objectively positive and objectively negative statements require proof, but only if you use Dawkinesque absolutism can you use spaghetti monsters and Spiderman as counterargument. Reason tells you not everything is the same, and saying "I might have a soul" is not the same as "Spiderman is real." Just as saying "There could be intelligent life on other worlds" is not the same as "There is an invisible flying spaghetti monster in the sky."

The lack of positive or negative evidence, or the inability within our current grasp to provide said positive or negative evidence, does not alone prove the positivity or negativity of the thing in question.

>>95891685
Yes: you correctly identified the fallacy you're appealing to. Good job!

>>95891697
I accept your concession, unless you pledge to go up to every person you meet who ever suggests aliens exist and explain to them why believing in fairy tales is for intellectual weaklings and only the enlightened can understand that. Since there is no evidence of aliens, they cannot exist.

>>95891714
Hahaha. Your false analogy isn't meaningful, anon. Correct: anyone claiming that there IS intelligent life on other planets is making a false claim. Because they're making a positive claim without evidence.

But no one claims that. What people claim is that there is LIKELY life on other planets, based on what we understand of how life appeared on Earth.

But since all you've done is construct really shitty rhetorical models that are easily knocked down by any college sophomore, I'm not surprised that your false analogy is yet-again so incredibly weak.

>>95891746
>Correct: anyone claiming that there IS intelligent life on other planets is making a false claim. Because they're making a positive claim without evidence.
It's also wrong to claim that without any doubt there is a god or gods, because we don't have the evidence. What the vast majority of religious/spiritual traditions say is, even without evidence, I believe [thing] to be true. That as an objective fact, but as a personal belief, just as atheists carry the personal belief that there is no god or gods because there isn't present evidence.

>But no one claims that.
Aside from a large number of people.

>all you've done is construct really shitty rhetorical models that are easily knocked down by any college sophomore
And you've only responded as a liberal arts college sophomore would, ineffectively and with constant assertions of your own intelligence and the moral superiority of your position over that of the opposition while regurgitating what you've read from other individuals (Dawkins, Harris, etc) who also assert their own intellectual and moral superiority without evidence, relying solely on an appeal to the line of "You're stupid if you disagree, and stupid people are wrong."

To say a god exists and to say a god does not exist both require evidence, otherwise they are a theory, belief, or supposition, not a fact, but it's far more often atheists who say their beliefs are factual than theists, though theists do it too.

>>95891781
>It's also wrong to claim that without any doubt there is a god or gods, because we don't have the evidence.
Correct.
>Aside from a large number of people.
Name one serious scholar who holds the positive contention that there factually is life on other planets without any evidence of it. Not someone who said "there's gotta be" or really emphatically believes that, based on what we know, there "must be." But someone who made a positive claim that "yeah aliens live on XYZ world."
>as atheists carry the personal belief that there is no god or gods because there isn't present evidence.
You keep trying to speak for atheist. Suggestion: ask one what they actually believe, instead of making things up and attributing the things you made up to them.

Seriously anon. You're woefully outa your league.

>>95891801
>Correct.
Then you concede the atheist position of "there is no god/gods" is also wrong, because there's no evidence to confirm it.

>but that's not what atheism is
If you say you're an atheist but believe, with proof, that you'd accept there is a god or gods, you're an agnostic. Big difference.

>>95891821
>the atheist position
Anon you're still trying to make things up and attribute them to other people so that you can argue against them.

If you'd like to know what "an atheist's position is?" Try reading one. Instead of strawmanning what you've invented as a position you claim that atheists believe.

>>95891888
It's pretty simple anon.
>I believe that gods/god/spirits exist
Theist
>I believe that gods/god/spirits do not exist
Atheist
>I don't know if gods/god/spirits exist, but they probably don't
Agnostic Atheist
>I don't know if gods/god/spirits exist, but they probably do
Agnostic Theist

>>95891920
That's very nice of you to share the definitions for things that you've made up, anon. For the life of me, though, I can't figure out why you think anyone cares when you argue against things you make up.

>>95891940
>established definitions of words are wrong, their actual definition is whatever is ideologically convenient for me

Gee this thread sure has a lot of /lgbt/ posters in it.

>>95832069 (OP)
Atheism is the only way in fantasy.
In reality Christ is the way.

>>95891056
>>95891045
But science was right in this instance. The vaccine prevented you from getting the disease, and the after effects were no worse than getting the disease.

It essentially skipped the "sick for a month" stage of it.

>>95891045
Theists suppose a man made the universe.
Because you're talking about christians, not theists.
Pick a religion, you dishonest son of a bitch. Or are you incapable of debate without lying?

>>95891973
Note how you swapped to theism instead of christianity because christianity is objectively incorrect.
All extant religions are. Hence why you retreat away from all of them to "theist". Because you're dishonest, and recognize that every form of religion requires far more jumps of logic than just assuming the universe exists.

Why are you such a fucking liar?

>>95894039
>>95891973
Really, when we get down to it, the religious will flee from any and all of their principles any time they're held to them.

>>95894039
>Note how you swapped to theism instead of christianity
Because Theism as a concept exists outside of it? Or are we proposing that neo-Pagans and Muslims and Buddhists are all Atheists?

>>95894096
Nah, I'm proposing that you swap to a word that has no actual beliefs or claims the moment your beliefs, and claims prove objectively false.

You will give up on any religion you claim is true, and revert to "theist" whenever convenient. Because you and I both know that theist is fucking meaningless without a religion attached.

>>95894108
>>95894096
It's even worse because theists inherently take more logical leaps than atheists anyway. It doesn't even help the debate.

Atheist-
The universe exists
Theist-
The universe exists, along with extra stuff I'm going to make up with no proof.

>>95862840
>Nope, not any of that, just
...Greek gods?

God it reeks of mid-00s reddit in here

>>95894136
Hey, we sometimes get a retarded christfag.

>>95863077
That's fine, but similarly, Forgotten Realms/Mercer's copycat can both be bad and not some atheist screed.

>>95894147
You see, because the gods act like gods have always acted, it's EVIL ATHEIST PROPAGANDA.

>>95894147
First time I played Forgotten Realms musta been around 1992. And the Time of Troubles has never once been relevant. But hey: different tables can do whatever they want. That's one of the best parts of our hobby.

>>95894033
>>95894039
>assuming this entire time theism specifically meant christianity even though "gods" and "spirits" were also mentioned
So by your definition, theism is any kind of religion, mainly christianity, and atheism, which literally means "without god", specifically means rejecting religion, but you seem to keep mentioning some kind of "universal faith" and insinuating that atheists don't dis-believe in a spiritual existence.

>>95894096
I'm thinking this anon is a pagan who incorrectly labels himself an atheist. The "universal faith" part is a giveaway, along with "all religion is false, but there ARE spirits", both paganist talking points.

In fairness to him I've heard it argued before that religions like buddhism and taoism are "atheist religions", but I'm on the side of not buying that. What most people think of as an atheist is someone like dawkins or sam harris, someone who says gods and spirituality don't exist at all. I don't care how much xiximxoxer posts in r/witchesvspatriarchy, I don't think "wiccans" are atheists. It's almost like they feel embarassed about it.

>>95894170
No, retard.
I'm saying that theism is a retreat point for you, away from your actual arguments. Because it obviously is.

Which is why you're now trying to fall into the semantics of what theism MEANS while I'm calling you a bullshitter to your face, you passive aggressive lying son of a bitch.

>>95894127
>atheism
>late 16th century: from French athéisme, from Greek atheos, from a- ‘without’ + theos ‘god’.
By saying you're an atheist, you are positively affirming "The universe exists and there is no spiritual or divine element to any of it." It goes like

Atheist-
The universe exists but nothing spiritual
Theist-
The universe exists and there is a god/gods/spirits
Agnostic-
The universe exists

So saying the first part means you're technically agnostic.

>>95894183
I'm telling you their stances, retard.
Like how this conversation was before you tried to dive into semantics to distract from your lack of a fucking point.

>>95894141
TIP
TIP
TIP FEDORA
TIP IT ALL THE TIME

>>95894358
Man, you act like a retard on command.

>>95894358
>>95894368
aaaand 310.
Thanks for helping me get there, faggot

>>95894368
t. redditor

>>95894189
No, anon. You're making up definitions and attributing them to other people. In particular, you're making up very weak definitions, so that you can attribute them to other people, so that you can argue against the weak definitions you've made up.

It's a not-very-clever rhetorical tactic called straw manning that you've already been well-exposed for.

>>95890678
It was the Protestant's fault they were the ones who took the bible seriously and created the young earth theory based on the common idiom "40 days and 40 nights."