Where did the idea that "modern fantasy" is all about tiefling hipsters sipping lattes in politically-correct, ultra-cosmopolitan, conflict-free fantasy seattle come from, when we can find plenty of evidence to the contrary? And why do we make such a big deal about it when we can easily make our own settings that don't fit this mold?

>>95841602 (OP)
>Where did the idea that "modern fantasy" is all about tiefling hipsters sipping lattes in politically-correct, ultra-cosmopolitan, conflict-free fantasy seattle come from
All of the official RPG artwork.

>>95841602 (OP)

>>95841602 (OP)
>Where did popular meme come from
D&D, twitter and reddit. It's always D&D, twitter and reddit.

>And why do we make such a big deal about it when we can easily make our own settings that don't fit this mold?
I do, OP. Though stuff like this does inform me the general focus of Wizards of the Coast's marketing THINKS people want, which more or less means what the people on twitter and reddit like telling people they should want. That being real life hipster adventures but with a fantasy coat over it. Which is not the kind of thing that interests me in the slightest, hence me deciding to make my own settings in response.

>>95841602 (OP)
It came from Seattle.

>>95841602 (OP)
Name 5 settings that do this and post a sexy latina

>>95841602 (OP)
Outrage against:
>the (fanmade) combat wheelchair for 5e
>the (fanmade) pride themed monster manual for 5e
>two gay wizards in strixhaven (5e)
>strixhaven as a book in general
>the (fanmade) coffe shop module (for 5e)
You might start to see a pattern here. Secondaries dont play games, but they do consoom breadtube enough to be fed clickbait about random shit on D&D beyond

>>95841602 (OP)
Is this Gaia Online?

>>95841602 (OP)
I feel like a lot of problems with how fiction is portrayed in the modern times is that people feel a need to have their identity represented. This goes for anyone, whether it's wokeys crying that there isn't enough women in a gritty war movie, that Japan doesn't have a heckin' wholesome black man, or that there isn't a white savior to be the relatable outsider for one of the few settings we get focused on a setting without race subversion. People have become close-minded to the idea of stories with people they don't completely align with.

>>95841621
except it's not like that
other than the politically-correct ultra cosmopolitan parts

>>95841803

I don't disagree but I don't see how this is related to the supposed conflict free modern fantasy

>>95841602 (OP)
Fuck I can't stand that picture.
Good hate-thread OP I usually have enough presence of mind not to reply to these but thus picture fucking blows.

>>95841794
https://crysandreaninfohub.fandom.com/wiki/Crysandrea_(City)
Long-lost dressup game MMO.

>>95841854
Given that onee stereotype of the kind of people who make rpgs nowadays is a spoiled rich trust fund kid turned adults who generally lives in the lap of luxury and is fa more politically active on twitter than actually taking it to the streets, it's linked to the idea that they create media that also provides essentially pillow-fisted challenges where it gives the veneer of danger but all the handholding and trappings of an easier modern life. At least, that's what I've gleaned

>>95841854
It's because people today often pull from the mythology of today and the stories they grew up with. Many of these people are emotionally stunted and stick with saccharin-sweet stories where everyone goes home at the end. We are also experiencing the slow dissolution of "teen culture" which otherwise does a great job at introducing media with more heavy topics yet isn't outright grimdark.

>>95841602 (OP)
This comes from the segment of "RPG fandom" who just consume actual-play things like Critical Role and play entirely too much FF14.

>why do we make such a big deal about it when we can easily make our own settings that don't fit this mold?
It's more about being annoyed at how what was once a niche hobby has been gutted and mainstreamified, and being powerless to unfuck it. It stated collapsing long before half this board was alive. Look up photos of Comiket and compare them to photos of GenCon.

>enthusiast-focused, almost entirely self-published works and amateur booths
vs
>giant ad for media companies with statues and dioramas that cost thousands to make, booths are long lines for promotional garbage, small creators are in their own section off to the side

I provide this link for more information: https://meaningness.com/geeks-mops-sociopaths

>>95841963
Trump won and it's fucking easy to sic the government on your enemies, there going to deport the gay men's fashion writer because he annoyed a rando and the rando managed to get the attention of the vice President,

Fuck dude you could probably get a investigation done into paizo of you bitch enough about it because they outright said JD Vance isn't allowed to play the game

>>95841602 (OP)
>waaah don't like it don't play it
No bitch, it's an assault on my eyes and therefore has no right to exist

>>95841602 (OP)
the fuck is up with that hat bitch?
her spine is broken, but she isn't even wearing clothes that flatter her tits or ass that much, the spine is broken just because

What are some good systems for a modern/urban fantasy setting? Preferably one that's not afraid to be a little anime with possible PC concepts.

>>95842061
That's the most terminally online thing I've seen in a long time. Unironically take a break from the internet for a while and you'll be much happier.

>>95842080
>that meme.
You copy a meme, and it looses all meaning.

You realize City culture has been invading Rural areas since 2013?
The rednecks don't hate you because you are who you are in LA.
You come to Colorado and Texas and try to make those places just like LA.
They got angry because you SHOWED UP in THEIR neighborhood.

This exact thing happened in D&D:
you bought the Incel's land and started building starbucks and pride centers.

>>95841602 (OP)
>Where did the idea that "modern fantasy" is all about tiefling hipsters sipping lattes in politically-correct, ultra-cosmopolitan, conflict-free fantasy seattle come from, when we can find plenty of evidence to the contrary?
because terminally online fags connect some pics from tumbr to their politics and open a new front in the culture war

>>95841785
>ignore the shilling that went behind all of those

>>95841602 (OP)
>when we can find plenty of evidence to the contrary?
Bullshit, you disingenuous faggot.

>>95843512
Why do you spend all your time lurking libtard sites for things to get mad at when there's plenty of stuff that's more our speed being published today? You're not looking hard enough.

>>95843512 groggily wakes up in his musty basement, salty tears encrusting his flabby cheeks.
>Finally, his tugboat his arrived. Now to spend it on chicken tendies....
>and WoTC's latest new PRODUCT.
>He salivates at the thought of the latter... will today be the day when WoTC has finally owned the libtards once and for all?
>OP orders another several hundred dollar box set from Amazon, his consoom boner protruding a mighty inch from his stained undies
>He spends the time waiting ranting about some faggot sharing a drawing of his tranny tieflings or some shit on Twitter
>His diabetic heart skips a beat as he hears someone arriving at his doorstep
>There is a box on his doormat, and in the street there is the amazon deliveryman running away from the smell of his decrepit house at mach speed
>"Finally... All my bitching about D&D has come to fruition..." he mutters to himself "now they will have prohibited niggers and trannies from being in, nay, PLAYING the game with their Seal of Corporate Approval..."
>OP opens the box, and sees a genderqueer elf warlock getting his centipede infested amhole licked by some pink cow hipster on the cover, as they announced on twitter last week and the week before that
>"NOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!" he howls, flab undulating like the atlantic ocean as he shakes his fists in the sky "HOW COULD THEY DO THIS!!! CURSE YOU TRANNIES!!!!!!"
>That evening he douses the box set with gasoline in his backyard and burns it, tears dripping down his fat face
>the fire flickers through his window as he miserably nibbles on cold tendies
>he spends the time he could have playing D&D or homebrewing a campaign that would his tastes whining on 4chan about people with whom he will never play games with
>even if said people existed outside his imagination, they would ironically be enjoying life better than he is
>the springs in the mattress squeal as he plants his fat mass on it,
>and the cycle repeats again

>>95842583
The incels hate D&D, as do conservatives as a whole, and they've never really changed their stance on that.

>>95844469
A lot of millennial/gen X nerds who call themselves "conservatives" are actually just 1990s and early 2000s liberals.

>>95841602 (OP)
>And why do we make such a big deal about it when we can easily make our own settings that don't fit this mold?
Because that's what they want you to do. Secede the culture war completely. Stick your head in the sand, you fucking chud, and give up the battlefield to mystery-meat mongrels who want to run games about being baristas with their gay orc boyfriend.
CONSUME OUR FUCKING SLOP, YOU DEMON WHITE MALES
HOW DARE YOU QUESTION OUR AGENDA
IT'S NOT HAPPENING
HOW DARE YOU SAY ITS HAPPENING YOU FUCKING RACIST SCUM
REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

>>95841602 (OP)
I want to say Critical Role but Critical Role wasn't a fraction as faggy as the post 4th edition art D&D decided to make its identity. It's like a gross parody of Critical Role, and I say this as someone that thinks it did irreparable damage to Furbolgs by making them into oversized cow hippies.

>>95842061
>done into paizo of you bitch enough about it because they outright said JD Vance isn't allowed to play the game
That's more of an admission on Paizo's part that nobody 'should' be allowed to taint their pallet with the infantilized travesty of a system that is PF 2nd. Ed.

>>95841785
Strixhaven is shit for alot of reasons that have nothing to do with politics. Mainly Silvery Barbs being one of the most broken spells ever introduced to the game. Holy shit Silvery Barbs is the most "Why ever play a martial?" bullshit in the game.

Thank god I quit playing that garbage system last year.

>>95844867
Why WOULD you play a martial in Brand X Harry Potter? Aren't the spells the whole point?

>>95844873
Many 5e fags seem to treat all WotC content as official and available to use in every campaign and setting.
That being sad, I played a 5e campaign about two years ago where the party's fighter took a level of bard and the first thing he asked for was Silvery Barbs.
DM didn't allow it, and thankfully the guy didn't push it.

>>95841602 (OP)
>And why do we make such a big deal about it when we can easily make our own settings that don't fit this mold?
You tell me, faggot. You're the one making this thread to cry about a problem you invented in your own schizophrenic, worm-riddled faggotbrain, not me.

>>95841963
>comiket
Which is full of AIslop now lmao

>>95844522
I mean that's just the natural political revolution because progressive and conservative have always been relative. The progressive of yesterday is the conservative of today, the progressive of today is the conservative of tomorrow.

>>95844925
>Many 5e fags seem to treat all WotC content as official and available to use in every campaign and setting.
This has been going on since... 1e? It wasn't as egregious then but it ramped up in 2e with shit like Skills & Powers and then 3.PF became such a ridiculous thing with people assuming you could play a character that consisted of
>Class from PF
>Race from a 3.5e Splatbook
>Template from a 3.5e monster book
>Weapon from a 3e book with no 3.5e errata
>Feats from Dragon magazine and PF third party books
>Magic items from 3 different adventures in 3 different settings from 3 different Dungeon magazine issues years apart each
>After finding 90% of these via consulting the candlekeep indexes using Ctrl+F to find everything that boosted a concept like "use a giant anime sword."

>And then get mad if the DM said no.

>>95844640
>>95843552
>>95843512
You have to actually ignore such things. If a company is committed to the bit then they're enshittifying a product in certain ways to intentionally provoke an emotional response. Getting mad only serves to both make it a valorous act for the social-status-signalling retards to buy said item ("CONSUMING PRODUCT TO OWN THE [CHUDS/LIBS]" - it goes all directions), and galvanize the former-core audience into trying to desperately convince the company to appeal to them despite the evidence of how likely that is being the mental image of such people laying face down on the pavement with the wheels of the bus rolling over their limbs after [Brand] intentionally threw them there.

>>95844640
As I told the SJWs, so I tell the SJWs again:
If you don't like it, go make your own.
The other side's SJWs could do it, they even got hired by WOTC. What's your excuse?

>>95845673
>people assuming you could play a character that consisted of
>And then get mad if the DM said no.
Did that actually happen with any frequency? I always heard to these horror stories, and I always wondered.
My only (still ongoing) experience with 3.5e is playing with a group of dudes who are fucking excellent in that aspect.
Everything goes through the DM and nobody complains when he says no, which seldom happens. He even let my character get levels in a Dragonlance (second party material) class because it fit so well.
Basically, I wonder how close to either extreme of horror story or non-issue the average player's experience was back in the day.

You clowns really will take any bait.

>>95842255
Devil City Tokyo 200X

>>95845846
>Did that actually happen with any frequency? I always heard to these horror stories, and I always wondered.
It varies. I suspect a lot of it was online or among people who had the cash and understanding for a usable-at-the-table laptop and grabbing hundreds of pdfs off of IRC. Online would be when VTT software was nonexistent to dogshit - AIM chat, IRC, fantasygrounds, OpenRPG, MapTool, Skype, Roll20 - and getting people to commit to showing up was horribly difficult.

>>95841840
>except it's not like that
>other than all the parts that are like that

>>95845806
>t. Nogames who doesn't know the sheer number of OSRclones out there
Also lets not forget how you get called racist/sexist for not supporting this shit
Nor should we forget that shouting clearly worked for them, so why shouldn't the other side do the same?

>>95846720
>they called me names :(
you could just, you know, ignore them. Sticks and stones off a duck's back and all that.

>>95846720
>shouting clearly worked for them, so why shouldn't the other side do the same?
read >>95845673


The only solution in the present is to just ignore such things. The companies who do it are dead, their soul was sucked out long before they had to pivot to that for greater numbers. They will not listen to the old fans. They actually CAN NOT listen to the old fans, because that would not make the number go up fast enough.

These companies are managed by moneymen who use ragebait marketing, and piggyback onto larger social causes as a way to try to capture fanatics from those demographics.
It's intentional, you are supposed to get mad. Because you getting mad = the fanatics on the other side of whatever controversy the product is piggybacking off of will see it as virtuous to spend money on the product, as a form of social signalling. This makes the number go up faster than making better products, and having stupider customers who buy the thing because it gains them status points, not for reasons like quality, makes selling cheaper things easier.

Everything that has investments is like this now.

None of the people who extract value from these companies have interest in longevity. They would kill a 200 year old company if doing so made them good returns. And you cannot reason with them because, for publicly-traded ones, they aren't human. Literally, I don't mean lizarmen or any of that. I mean that a huge chunk of the investments come from algorithm-driven conglomerates who act as a proxy for millions of random peoples' retirement funds and other small investments. Their leadership is just a figurehead, all the decisions are made based upon statistics and data. It's a bizarre form of collective ownership of large portions of the economy, and the only common interest between so many people is "make number go up".

Smaller, non-investor-captured companies imitate the big ones, not realizing that this kind of stuff is actually bad for a sustainable business.

>>95846720
>Nor should we forget that shouting clearly worked for them, so why shouldn't the other side do the same?
Shouting - to the extent it worked - only worked for them because the people making the games sympathized with them. If you want to make your game not racist, and somebody on Bluesky says "this is racist," you may listen to them, but that's because you have the same goal. But if you want to make your game not racist, and someone on 4chan says "this isn't racist enough," you won't listen to them.

If you want games to have your politics, people with your politics need to make games that appeal to a wide public audience, i.e. not dogshit OSRclones.

My headcanon is that Pic related is a bunch of kids going to a rave in a ruined city but then some fucked up Devilman shit happens because demons are attracted to drug fueled debauchery.

>>95846850
>only worked for them because the people making the games sympathized with them
This is only true to an extent and only for smaller companies.
It's more that they are fanatics whose consumption of products is entirely based off of tribalistic vibes, and so they're an ideal market to try to aim for.
>make product with visual elements that the data shows resonates with the population that is projected to result in the highest total revenue when accounting for both size and per capita spend
>market in a way that declares said population's enemy tribes as being the people who dislike your product, leverage "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" logic
>produce lots of additional merchandise whose primary aim is to act as a visual representation of expending resources to support this brand

>>95845806
The right wing creative scene is largely composed of second rate hacks that can't complete projects to an acceptable level of polish for people to buy it. Say what you will about le sjws but they actually get shit done in the gaming space, while the goal of the conservative creatives seems to be culture war podcast grifting - not making games.

Part of the problem of the rw creatives is that their audience consists of unappreciative people with terrible aesthetic sensibilities. There's a reason small towns that look like picturesque Americana have a voting record like Clinton +20, Biden +15, Harris +18, and ones that look like shit are conservative. They also don't buy nerd stuff, so you pander and not only not be rewarded but also make it impossible to network with people that actually get shit done in the future.

>>95841602 (OP)
You know how sometimes an anime will have the beach or chill out episode? You know how it was special because you might get two of those episodes out of fifty? Secondary's want that episode every time they play.

>>95841905
I blame fanfic writters of the 2000's who never grew the fuck up and ended up getting jobs at these companies with their 300 pound whale ass.

>>95845673
I want to get mad just so I can see how much these political activists and fuck and and sabotage a product to own da chuds.

>>95845892
>>95846776
samefag melty!

>>95847192
>I blame fanfic writters of the 2000's who never grew the fuck up and ended up getting jobs at these companies with their 300 pound whale ass.
If they can get it, why can't you?

One of my favorite aesthetics is "overtly fantasy-looking character using a smartphone as an everyday object."

>>95847216
not having the same nepotistic connections

>>95847224

>>95847216
It's a real goddamn mystery, innit?

>>95847224
>>95847238

>>95847224
>>95847238
>>95847256

>>95847224
>>95847238
>>95847256
>>95847262

>>95847237
Always with the seething excuses from rw creatives. The reality is, you don't have the grit or level of interest to get shit done. Macris is probably the only exception, and what did that get him - an audience that gives him asspats on Twitter and 4chan, but doesn't really buy stuff compared to what he had before.

>>95847224
>>95847238
>>95847256
>>95847262
>>95847268

>>95847224
>>95847238
>>95847256
>>95847262
>>95847268
>>95847281

>>95847237
Bro there is basically no one in the entire RPG industry who is related to anyone else, and the handful I can think of are rightoid kids of founding creatives.

>>95847280
it's not really from a position of cope, but from a position of life experience
every job worth having I've got because I knew somebody/knew somebody that knew somebody
if I went to some faggot college and knew a bunch of people in that industry from that experience, I imagine I could get such a job peddling my take on fantasy slop

>>95847237
Hannah the Ouran slashfic writer didn't have connections like Ernie or Luke Gygax.

>>95847307
Oh, you mean networking? Yes, if you can't make any friends then you'll have a tough time getting into the business about playing games with your friends.

>>95847334
>>95847327
>>95847298
leave it to /tg/ to go straight to the dictionary definition and not the colloquial one used by most
yes, I understand my misuse of the term nepotism

>>95847280
Buddy, friend, pal. If it wasn't for politics and nepotism 80% of writers and creators would be out on their ass right now because all they do is complain about how toxic modern fans are on twitter. But I'm sure you already knew that and are just looking to shift the topic to protect your circle.

>>95847352
I never hear people use "nepotism" to describe networking, because they're fundamentally different processes. Even extreme cases of stupid favoritism (e.g. hiring a guy as an accountant because he's hot and charming even though he's bad at math), I don't see that word used to describe it. Words have meaning.

>>95847307
People don't want to work with randos that have no track record of accomplishing even college projects, and no capital? Say it ain't so.

Yeah, follow the cursus honorum, retard. It's like bitching about not getting a good tech job when you went to some community college instead of Stanford or MIT.

>>95847355
Then where are the /ourguys/ projects that aren't ACKS? Conservative creators don't actually care that much about creating and pushing projects even in the indie space past the finish line compared to the writers of shit like Thirsty Sword Lesbians.

>>95847355
Nobody "knows" this because they aren't retarded apes like you. I make my living writing fiction, I only peripherally interact with other writers, and I will gladly complain about toxic dipshits annoying me anywhere I feel like it's a good place to air my grievances (not here, obviously, since there's only seething resentment for success left on this board).

If you want to make a living as a writer, you need to convince people to pay you money for something produced by millions of other people that is facially similar. While you could probably get a good rec from some popular author to get some quick sales, that only lasts one book before they realize you write like shit.

>>95847372
>guy asks question
>answer it
>cope bro!
>no really, this is why
>WOOOOOW, CAPTAIN OBVIOUS OVER HERE
you just want to be upset, huh

>>95847390
When the hell did I bring up conservatives, bucko? You sound obsessed.

>>95847391
Ha ha, you actually work as a slop writter? No wonder you are so ass blasted at being called out for the poor performance maker you are. God I hope this is just master bait and you are not actually this self aggrandizing and prideful. Oh, let me guess who you are.... are you the Mork Borg guy? All the crap you people write all kind of blend into the same art over function when it comes to writing your "games".

>>95847437
I am not "ass blasted" at all. You are an idiot; I don't care about your opinion of me or my industry, beyond noting it is false. It's like some dullard coming into your job as a McDonald's employee and explaining that you're doing it wrong, while not understanding the most basic elements of the work.

>>95847393
The reality is that BASED people don't actually care about the things they bitch about. They will complain about Kikes of the Coast, but never even think about going to art school, going to conference, or even the $0 investment of pirating Affinity and releasing a pdf on their own.

Why? They don't actually care that much about passing the bar to work in the field they're supposedly invested in, or even just making something to prove they can.

>>95847334
>>95847327
>>95847298
Cronyism. It's called Cronyism.
It's commonly, incorrectly called nepotism, yes. But the take is obviously cronyism.

>>95847367
>>95847372
What people are realizing is that for much of the last century, pretty much every game and media thing was made by insular industries, where you can see a chain of the successful people having worked on other successful things. Essentially, being boosted NOT by the fact that their work was good enough that they got public approval, but because they knew the right people.

That is changing as the internet decentralizes power in general, but there is a LOT of industry backlash against it and plenty of established cultural capital being leveraged to (futilely) try to stop the bleeding. The OGL Update was actually one attempt to do this - to gain carte blanche to shut down anything. But WotC flew too close to the sun and daddy Hasbro always has one hand on the belt in case WotC's precarious numbers dip too low.

>>95847390
There are actual people who band together to shit on people they don't like and spread rumors just because they don't like them. "The worst people you have never met" is eye-opening. Peer pressure is a hell of a drug.

>>95847498
>these BASED folks just want to complain about nothing
>let me complain about them complaining

>>95847498
>Share a political opinion that isn't some commie BS
>Get canceled
That is why you don't see any open conservative games. Also your liberal ones are just rules lite/d20 garbage that can be written in a week. There is a reason why the only reason people even own copies is from bundles they can pay 10 dollars for 20 books.

>>95847454
You misunderstand.
They aren't telling you your industry practices are ineffective or stupid. And they're not idiots who think that.

They're telling you that your industry's practices are immoral, and you are an evil person for supporting them.

>>95847537
You will make excuses to do literally anything but put together a portfolio and meet people.

>>95847556
Then get into huntin' and fishin' accessories. The nerds that actually buy /tg/ products are like 9:1 liberal commies. It's like getting into interior decorating and complaining about the gays and women.

>>95847560
I don't care what they think, they do not know the most basic elements of writing as an industry.

The most core, simple thing to understand about writing - whether it's TTRPGs, mainline publishing, self-published, fanfiction, smut, or whatever else - is that there are one million people clamoring to get in, putting in real effort. The reason dipshits like >>95847437 don't have successful jobs in the TTRPG industry isn't that there's some huge gatekeepers. It's the same reason that so many books an DTRPG have <10 sales: they write things nobody wants to pay money for.

>>95847645
Read again. The problem isn't networking. It's that even with networking to put together a team, there are established industry players and their lower-tier sycophants who, if you aren't willing to play ball with them, will stonewall you and try to destroy your attempts at building a parallel ecosystem.

>Try to hire artists/writers
>They get blackballed from the rest of the industry if other people find out they worked with you
>Now your pool of talent is way smaller, and the ability to reach those people is limited
Whoops!

>>95847810
>I don't care what they think, they do not know the most basic elements of writing as an industry.

Nobody cares about why you do, the ends do not justify the means.

You are supporting immoral practices and trying to downplay it as something necessary or natural.

>He's so assblasted he gave me another passive aggressive (you)

>>95847812
Just ignore them. At this point they are throwing a shit fit at A) being called out and B) the OP is actively disrespecting the type of story rubbish the spaztic writes about so they are trying to derail the thread.

>>95847847
I'm not "supporting immoral practices." You are a delusional conspiracist who thinks that the reason nobody wants to read his sloppa is because of gatekeepers.

>>95847868
>Just ignore them.
Concession accepted.

>>95841905
>pic
Where can I find more

>>95847812
If you can't hang out at GenCon without making mortal enemies, that sounds like a you problem

>>95847894
It's like car enthusiasts clamoring for sports sedans and manual transmissions, and then not buying them. You can only be fooled by people who talk big, but don't actually buy jack shit so many times before realizing they're not even worth throwing a bone.

At best, the untapped market of BASED RPG players are habitual pirates that won't even give you beer and pizza money. Realistically, they don't exist in a meaningful way.

>>95847908
I was just looking up art of Maplestory.

>>95847894
I've seen your type before but not in the wild. The type who supports access journalism because >that's just how the industry works and if you don't want to make connections then you're just ignorant

These industries deserve to burn to the ground so that there is nowhere near as much centralized control.

>>95847923
To be honest there are enough people who go to fucking GenCon now that that's probably impossible to do. Someone is going to hate you in that mass of people for something inane.

>>95847968
This isn't actually true. Or rather, it's true if you think that people want "Based RPGs that allow them to social signal in a different direction", when what they want is just the security that the games they invest time and energy into aren't going to be run into the ground to "reach a wider audience."

>>95848002
>These industries deserve to burn to the ground so that there is nowhere near as much centralized control.
We're talking about the TTRPG industry, bro. Any dipshit can go on DTRPG and post whatever they want, the reason rightoids don't do it is because they'd rather bitch on /tg/ than put effort into creating something.

>>95845806
>The other side's SJWs could do it, they even got hired by WOTC.
Of course they could, they were already running the show. No surprise they hire like minded individuals, refuse to hire opposing thought, and indeed write forewords actively demanding that opposing thought not play or purchase their content.

Judging by the inordinate amount of seethe over OSR I reckon that's where all the center-to-right creatives have gone.

>>95848016
You can indeed post whatever you want, but if you start to get big and are someone it turns out the established whos-who don't like, you get fucked over. I have seen it happen multiple times over the years.
Rumor-based smear campaigns, blackballing anyone who works with you, making pariahs out people who like your games...

>>95848055
Oh, yeah, for real, that definitely happened so many times. It's crazy how often it happens.

>>95848002
You've had at least a decade since the culture war got to the elfgames around the Tumblr war and GG to do fucking anything. You have ACKS and a few grifts and failures like MYFAROG and Star*Frontiers, and I bet Macris regrets pandering to people that simply don't pay him like his previous audience.

>>95848043
Nobody's seething over OSR, it's just pathetic you guys' idea of creativity is dusting off houserules to OD&D.

>>95848055
Name 3

>>95841872
Screw you, it's a reminder of better times.

>>95848150
3 on different polarities

Zak S, Raggi, Desborough

In order of how fucked each was. All 3 have been the subject of smears.
Zak S lost almost everything because even fucking Mike Mearls was shitting on him without justification. He is in no way some kind of "BASED ALPHA CHUD", he's some scrawny dyed mohawk LA porn actor/artist lefty-punk.

Raggi took serious hits to his mental health and the stability of his business was majorly fucked for a while. The dude is too nice and will work with pretty much anyone because he just likes making games happen. Again this dude isn't some kind of poltard.

Desborough, on the other hand IS some kind of active anti-wokie, and has been (albiet originally mildly) for a really long time, so anyone who worked with him was, over the years, more and more considered to be basically tainted. He ended up leaning into it and turned it into his whole thing after a point. So the morons provoked someone who thought it was fun to make little shitty irreverent side games alongside the rest of his regular work, into dedicated a portion of his time into being a pundit. Great. Wonderful.

>>95844640
>People like things I don't like?
>AAAAAHHHH, THE SKY IS FALLING! ITS THE END OF WHITE CIVILIZATION! SAVE ME DONALD TRUMP!

>>95848112
See what I mean? Instant seething and an attempt to engage the "enemy" ("you guys"). Why does OSR enrage the USAID asset so much?

>>95848271
>Zak S
Credibly accused of rape.

>Raggi
Still in business.

>Desborough
Literally who + can't find any signs of this guy being canceled via Googling.

>>95848330
>uhhhh chatgpt who is this?
Well thanks for confirming you don't play games and are only here for the culture war.

>>95848321
I'm not "seething". It's just pathetic. Libs have effectively every game published since 2000 - White Wolf, PbtA, BitD, Fate, etc.

You guys have "OD&D + my houserules"; even then, lots of the OSR folks are libs. How would I seethe? Why would I seethe? It's like watching a disabled toddler try to climb a wall and fall on his ass. I'm not angry, it's just sad, and even more sad because you can't recognize your own team's failure.

>>95848354
https://desuarchive.org/tg/search/text/desborough

He was last mentioned on this board more than a year ago. The fact that I can't offhand recognize some obscure designer doesn't make me "nogames" - if anything, it would make me more nogames to recognize a name like that offhand, since people who play games rarely pay attention to the authors.

>>95848271
Zak had been hated for being awful to work with in freelancing circles and being an insufferable sockpuppeting narcissist long before the rape stuff. He was tolerated because he made other people money, and I wouldn't be surprised if hooking up fat boomers with viagra, coke, and pussy at cons is part of why he stuck around for such a long time.

>>95848330
>Credibly accused of rape.
He was accused of random shit that had 0 confirmation and was entirely just hearsay.
Then accused of being abusive by his ex-wife who lied under oath multiple times, including claiming she wasn't BPD when she was verifiably diagnosed BPD and had said she was in the past.

Yea, "credibly" lol

>>95848388
>last mentioned on this board more than a year ago
>outing yourself as a tourist this hard
loooool go back to trawling the board for writing inspiration you hack.

Even if you've been here a while the fact that you try to goldfish memory things is very telling.

>>95848515
>"it's ok to boost unfounded accusations of sexual assault if you think the accused acted like a dick previously"

>>95848330
>>95848515
>Give three examples, chud. Let's hope you remember trivial things that happen all the time!
>*Examples are given*
>Those don't count!
This is why everyone hates your guts with your dishonest shit flinging.

>>95848538
You might have a dent in your skull or be Zak himself if you think his defense made him look like a good husband (which everyone realistically knew, but wanted to bang his porn star acquaintances).

>>95841642
You’re on the right track, but I’d like to add that the intended audience the art is appealing to tend to think of cosmopolitan urban settings as safe havens from the wider world, and that that’s likely either where they live or where they want to live, so conflict gets shunted out to the countryside, which represents everything the city is not.
>>95848043
I’d assume it’s more likely that most people who actually buy stuff don’t actually give a fuck about the political views of the people making their escapist entertainment and D&D/WOTC is mainly coasting on having more name recognition to drive sales. Contrary to what some in this thread would have you believe, the Twitter activist crowd is as guilty of not spending on stuff that panders to them as their right wing counterparts.

>>95848589
What whisper network. People openly hated Zak for years, and the rape stuff came so late it was only really the final straw for a few nuthuggers like Patrick S, who to their credit stuck by him for a long time. It's not like they instantly turned on him; he just had a lot of people that worked with him that thought he was a piece of shit, and wanted to laugh at the lolcow like Mearls himself.

So you have Raggi, which I'll give you, and literally who?

>>95848629
>if you think his defense made him look like a good husband
At no point would I ever state that an aging lefty-artist porn actor RPG-E-celeb punk who lives in an LA polycule and got arrested for participating in a BLM riot would be likely to be "a good husband."

That doesn't make him a sexual abuser.

>>95848660
>No no you see, it wasn't enough that a lot of people hated him! It was still annoying having to exist within the same troposphere and knowing he was making money! No matter how much of an ass he was, it wasn't enough to kill his career and financial stability! Who cares if they were lies? Making up shit about him committing heinous crimes and spreading it finally managed to punish him offline for the accumulated years of mild internet annoyance and hurt feelings!

This is part of why I curate my friend ciricles pretty hard, I didn't even know about all this shit about this guy til after the fact, but it's validated my bias against the BPD.

>>95848661
>aging lefty-artist porn actor RPG-E-celeb punk who lives in an LA polycule
That almost definitionally makes him a sexual abuser, people just tolerated it because he drew dimes, and probably got them pussy.

>>95841602 (OP)
Traditional games?

>>95848712
>There is almost certainly between the Earth and Mars there is a miniature china teapot revolving about the sun in an elliptical orbit

>>95847334
Is networking not just a socially acceptable word for cronyism though?

>>95848739
For autists.

>>95848635
Makes sense. It honestly feels like the twisted corruption of what they did with Log Horizon, where everyone is eking out an existence in what's visibly the remains of a long abandoned modern day city. And no matter how much they cover it up with signs, posters and string lights, the remaining trees and dilapidated buildings are always a quiet reminder that all the people are far from home. Wheras a lot of art being made by WOTC is trying far too hard to paint the image of being a happy and cozy homelife just with a veneer of fantasy shit slapped on that serves to highlight how even more artificial and "fake" that level of safety and coziness is.

>inb4 anime example
The OP's image was taken from an anime-inspired game, so I thought it appropriate.

>>95848718
Nobody likes you.

>>95848635
>tend to think of cosmopolitan urban settings as safe havens from the wider world
I cannot relate to this. I think of cosmopolitan urban settings as places where there just happens to be a lot of people and I'm LESS safe there than most other places.
>so conflict gets shunted out to the countryside
Including this. Fucking cities man.

Is that why they don't seem to really like the dirty as fuck "punk" style urban fantasy? Too close to home, not enough escapism?

>>95848852
I mean, injuries and violent death per capita shows that you are safer in a city than in the countryside, anon.

>>95841602 (OP)
>when we can find plenty of evidence to the contrary
And just as much, if not more, evidence that upholds it. And because retards find that kind of portrayal "relatable," that's what gets the most attention.

>>95848951
>injuries and violent death per capita shows that you are safer in a city
Maybe in your white only community in uptown making 10,000 a month writing new york best sellers while sipping starbucks coffee twice a day

>>95847367
>I never hear people use "nepotism" to describe networking,
That's because you're a nepobaby yourself, tourist.

>>95848951
In what fucking world?

>>95849027
>>95849193
Notice how he said
>injuries and violent death
and not anything to do with crime rates
https://usafacts.org/articles/where-are-crime-victimization-rates-higher-urban-rural-areas/

Even if he's right, that's more likely to do with the distance to and resources of EMS in rural areas.

This applies to RPGs as well, technically.

Where are you most likely to meet hostile NPCs? Inhabited areas. What about monsters? Well, dungeons are often some form of habitation or city, just typically an evil one.

So what's in the countryside? Vast tracts of mostly empty hexes, with occasional encounters. And if you go by old school tables, those occasional encounters can be pretty strong when they do occur.


Really makes you think.

it's my personal belief that as fantasy became more mainstream, people started adding more things they could relate to. Yeah sure at first it was racial diversity and stuff and no shut up diversity is fine. The issue really came when they started melding more of their own reality to the fantasy to create a sort of idealized world, one where you can go on dates to a fancy but affordable cafe then adventure and fight against morally unambiguous villains. The fantasy of monsters and magic is getting muddled with the fantasy of healthy polycules and livable wages. The true solution is to fix society but the realistic solution is to try and unmudddle modern tropes from medieval fantasy.

Or plot out a realistic history for your fantasy world to explain why transbian mall rats double as demon hunters/daters instead of going "uhh uhh THEY JUST ARE, OK???"

>>95846720
>Shouting worked for them
No, they got a job at WOTC. That's what worked for them.
You're just seething about this, apparently, you fucking SJW.

>>95849907
>Or plot out a realistic history for your fantasy world to explain why transbian mall rats double as demon hunters/daters instead of going "uhh uhh THEY JUST ARE, OK???"
Nobility, aka rich kids. Anyone that would risk their lives on the daily to grave rob, exterminate ultra-intelligent vermin and beasts, and hunt down the bounties dangerous criminals and mad men that isn't desperate or poor is always some rich kid doing this shit for kicks

>>95848043
>they were already running the show
not any more than any other tabletop property. It's not their fault conservatives have hated tabletops for decades, leaving only liberals to fill the slots.

>>95847164
I think it's just that the right wing only has people shouting about how they hate tabletop, but they refuse entirely to get into any kind of work actually trying to do tabletop.

They've never bought tabletop things. The very idea that they would is incredibly modern given their history of trying to ban tabletop things.

>>95847237
They literally fought the man, and won.
Why can't you?
Are you less strong and convincing than a hippy?
If so, why are you less than a hippy?

>>95847437
Man, why do right wing people always pretend like they're not able to read when they start losing an argument?

>>95847556
All cancelling is is effective boycotting.
It's CRAZY how terrified you people are of this.
As opposed to in my day, where you people called us literal satan worshippers and murderers for playing tabletop.

>>95841803
>people feel a need to have their identity represented.
These types of "people" are fucking subhumans and deserve nothing but scorn and mockery. If you cannot engage with fiction or a hobby without self inserting your banal identity into it then you lack the mind and soul of an actual human being.

>>95849824
That's how those urbanites get you, implying something with how a study is worded only to win the argument due to a technicality when somebody does challenge them all while preying on the ignorance of other people who don't catch onto that technicality. That is how messages are pushed. They are not technically lying so therefore they are morally free of guilt.

Anyway, I'm sure even in fantasy land cities are still under threat due to either hidden goblin gangs, sewer slimes or a dragon attack by the dark lord.

>>95849907
Yeah, this is pretty much it. There is nothing wrong with having one or two perfect areas or having the team go out to a cafe after dealing with an orc threat. The issue is that there is no emotional tension.

>>95850003
>How dare they give me information that's true and pertinent!
>Damn them, this is how they spread their agenda
lol

Bait or discord troons, call it.

>>95850029
It's crazy how much you people seethe when a single person comes into a thread and starts laughing at your retarded behavior.

>>95849993
I find it sad that this push for diversity doesn't actually mean showing off stories about other cultures but simply stomping on white people's stories.

>>95850003
Why do LGBT folks exist in fantasyland? Well a long time ago people discovered gender changing magic. And some folks were like "hm I sometimes feel weird in this gender but nice in this other gender" and then being trans was normalized as just a thing that people do. Some use it as an identity but some people use blacksmithing as an identity, or blood as an identity, or living in a rock as an identity. Same shit.

>>95850041
It's sad that all this complaining about tabletop isn't from people who actually want to engage in tabletop, but just people angry at liberals.

>>95850044
Same reason peasants exist in fantasyland.
A holdover from the real world because their fantasies include them. There's nothing saying your fantasyland has to have cities, or even people, but they do.

>>95850056
fuck it there's nothing saying your fantasyland has to have sapient beings let's play some fucking diplodocus & dimetrodons roll to see if you're extinct

>>95850048
It's a janny-approved /pol/ thread. What did you expect?

>>95850044
what the fuck are you talking about?

>>95850068
I expect a bunch of seething from the right wing, and then them never making any kind of interesting tabletop.
I wonder if anyone ever told them that nobody cares about fantasy heartbreakers?

>>95850066
You joke, but I've played a bunch of dinosaur based games, I bet a tabletop couldn't be too hard.

>>95850069

>>95850068
The only people bitching about politics is from people who are obviously left leaning. And they (you) are in this thread because they are ass blasted that people don't like their crappy urban fantasy because you can't stand the idea that people might like some old and classic because the old and classics don't even have the concept of your politics in them. You lost.

>>95850085
What system? Cause I have a friend who would be interested and I feel obligated to ask on their behalf

>>95850095
PC, as I specified they weren't tabletop.

>>95850094
>The only people bitching about politics is from people who are obviously left leaning
Why do right wing people pretend to be unable to read when they start losing an argument?

>>95850099
Shame, but fair enough. Always did want to try a prehistoric style tabletop game

>>95849907
>one where you can go on dates to a fancy but affordable cafe then adventure and fight against morally unambiguous villains. The fantasy of monsters and magic is getting muddled with the fantasy of healthy polycules and livable wages.
This is FF14 but with the "healthy polycules and livable wages" swapped for "BPD narcy parties and RP cafes with a drink minimum charging an arm and a leg in gil for imaginary RP food and drink"
FF14 is a major aggregator of this sort of person for some reason. I think it might be because of how it's extremely low-challenge for the most part and half the game is getting items to dress up your character and then standing around in a city waiting for people to message you.

>>95849937
Ironically it was originally that "D&D was teaching kids to summon a satan because it has magic and demons" and now it's "D&D is teaching adults to do a racism because it has sentient nonhuman species that are omnicidal by nature"
The former eventually resulted in 2e losing a lot of longstanding content as they tried to scrub anything objectionable out, and everyone hated that. The latter has 5e losing a lot of longstanding content as they try to scrub anything objectionable out.
Time is a circle.

>>95849985
Disingenuous framing.

>>95850044
Fantasy games have had the occasional "wait you mean this person used to be a being of the opposite sex (and often a completely different species)? Alright whatever floats your boat." type of character for decades. Usually the argument is moreso about transplanting an idealized "trans struggle" from the real world into the game instead of going from "ok if a trans person existed in Greyhawk/FR/Eberron/etcetc what options would they have?" Which, usually, would logically result in the aforementioned complete-change via magic.

I don't think there has been serious complaints about trans people being a part of games like WoD, Shadowrun, or other modern/scifi games based loosely on IRL, just fantasy games.

>>95850109
oh, there's a few of those, but I cannot for the life of me remember them. they're always named like, "Grug" or "churk" or "Bonk" or some shit.

The favorite one I read was the one that gave players a number of choices from the word list equal to their intelligence. (1-10, usually) Everyone could understand each other's words, but could only say their own.

If I ever find that system again, I'd like to run it.

>>95850118
>Disingenuous framing.
That's not what that means. Are you retarded?
>Ironically it was originally that "D&D was teaching kids to summon a satan because it has magic and demons" and now it's "D&D is teaching adults to do a racism because it has sentient nonhuman species that are omnicidal by nature"
The former eventually resulted in 2e losing a lot of longstanding content as they tried to scrub anything objectionable out, and everyone hated that. The latter has 5e losing a lot of longstanding content as they try to scrub anything objectionable out.

Now THIS is is disingenuous framing, because you are comparing people taking legal action to people joining a corporation and making products they like.

>>95850118
>I don't think there has been serious complaints about trans people being a part of games like WoD, Shadowrun, or other modern/scifi games based loosely on IRL, just fantasy games.
yeah, because modern era games have modern era explanations. fantasy era games need fantasy era explanations but use modern era explanations instead, thus the disjointed result.

>>95850129
Going on from this, it's crazy how much the modern complainers don't recognize the difference between taking legal action (Along with physical violence) and effective boycotting.
These are just one and the same to them, somehow.

>>95850146
Fantasy isn't an era.
I know tolkein and D&D poisoning is strong, but seriously, come the fuck on now.

>>95850122
Genuinely good to know, considering I'm always up for something beyond D&D. Guess I'll have to hope my search engine skills haven't atrophied

>I don't think there has been serious complaints about trans people being a part of games like WoD, Shadowrun, or other modern/scifi games based loosely on IRL, just fantasy games.
For what it's worth, that's likely because the games have either positioned themselves as being focused on "outsider" groups ala WoD and Shadowrun, or they're positioned as being more "advanced" aka in a position where people culturally stopped giving a shit aka scifi games. People tend to get hung up on fantasy games because they also tend to get hung up on the idea that fantasy should also equal medieval-esque, when the reality would be that most people would have far bigger issues than who you shag on the side unless you're nobility.

>>95850118
I take my hat off for you with effort posting when you are against the clown squad to must not betray the party and its glorious plans. You are also correct with the last part. People love WoD and didn't give a shit that you can have a gay or trans vampire, because that was a legacy thing in the 90's when it was actually edgy. We make fun of WoD now because of retarded characters like Ruddi leading BLM.

>>95850167
Meant that second part to go to >>95850118 , oops

>>95849962
Conservatives don't actually care. They don't want to commit to even the bare minimum of effort to meet the professional hurdles.

My experience is that it's far better to be a closeted right winger, because the moment you're open - you get a wack pack of rejects that don't contribute shit coming out of the woodwork to "help" (but really fuck up whatever you're doing). You want to work with people that aren't retards and incompetents, you shut the fuck up and play ball with liberals, because they're the only people that get shit done in creative ventures.

>>95850173
Why are you seething so bad because I pointed out that taking legal action is different than boycotting?

>>95850180
I would love to see them ever attempt anything other than a D&D clone.

>>95850163
sorry, I mean fantasy WORLD games need fantasy WORLD explanations instead of modern WORLD explanations, something that actually fits the world and isn't a donkeyshit cork board of aesthetics and "things I like" made into a slop world like that one ragebait image of a bunch of GNC fantasy races in a modern day place with fantasy decorations

>>95850207
Your statement doesn't change anything about the core problem I had with your post.
Nothing says a fantasy WORLD has to have people. That's all on you.
A fantasy WORLD will have whatever the makers want in it. And, for every tabletop I can think of besides D&D clones, that's liberals.

why ARE conservatives too lazy to make their own RPGs and settings? Are they ALL lazy grifters or is there something in their mindset that restricts their capabilities?

>>95850230
Well, conservatives want things to how they perceive the past, so they make D&D clones.
Liberals want to change things to how they perceive the future, so they get into WOTC and make D&D itself.

>>95850129
Cancellation is not a synonym for boycotting, it's a synonym for ostracization. And it also extends beyond the person to anyone who is viewed as being a sympathizer.

Boycotting is an attempt to force change in an institution through withholding business, while ostracization is an attempt to actually destroy someone's ability to function in a society.

The thing is that shaming and ostracization don't really work now - not really. It can force people to change industries, sometimes, especially if said cancellation is extremely high profile or the industry they worked at was highly sensitive to such things. But usually it just means shoving them out of one group and making them find a new home in another.

A group that's typically full of other cancelled people. Obviously exceptions occur but this the trend that's been going on for a long time. Cancellation is just creating new factions hostile to the very concept of cancellation and anyone who would employ it.

https://goldenlight.mirror.xyz/E5DPdGl5uajPFYOJRXC6qjp4wXjpfx3hgafC9pB2KVo

>>95850247
>cancelling isn't boycotting, it's also ostracizing!
>Which is a thing that doesn't work well any more!
Thank you for proving with your own logic that you were being wildly disingenuous.
Meanwhile, conservatives took legal action, physically stole books, and ALSO ostracized. During an era where it worked much better.

Which, in turn, created people like me, who are here to remind you of how your people never gave a single shit about tabletop, and have spent the entire span of my life trying to shut it down.

>>95850246
...WAIT IS DUNGEON CRAWL CLASSIC A CONSERVATIVE GAME???

>>95850274
Anything in the past is conservative, regardless of if the makers were liberals at the time.

>>95850274
I'm torn because it's definitely a love letter to older fantasy, but zocchi dice also cause OSR puritans to have a stroke.

>>95850295
OSR puritans are barely people, they roll stats in a system that requires you to pick spell and equipment lists.

>>95850246
>AAARGH I HAVE NO WRITING CREDITS AND NO ART PORTFOLIO WHY WON'T WIZARDS HIRE ME OVER LIBTARD NEPOBABIES (who went to art school, took freelance gigs, etc) I'M GOING INSANE

>>95850274
No lol. Goodman Games hires gay furries.

>>95848762
I’d say anime examples are warranted. While Japan is more homogeneous than the sorts of settings being described, the population is pretty heavily concentrated around Tokyo, so that helps explain the urban angle.
>>95848852
It’s their own idealized version of what cities are like. We’re talking about hipsters, their neighborhoods are all gentrified except for a few ethnic restaurants still hanging on. To them, urban conflict and/or ethnic tensions are either right wing propaganda or the result of right wingers coming in and causing problems. Conversely, rural areas are defined as being everything their idealized city is not. Their escapism is that the city would be free of those problems if everyone who disagrees with them lives elsewhere.

>>95850173
>retarded characters like Ruddi leading BLM
I was never really that impressed by the Rudi memes. I've met people like that: self-described Muslim trans gay etc etc. It's all posturing and magpie philosophy. If I got exercised over it in real life, imagine how much time I'd have to spend being angry.
Layer being a cool badass vampire onto it because that's the game, you get a Rudi. Everyone makes a super Matrix badass vampire self-insert the first time they play VtM. It's the law.

>>95850360
But I want to make a character who makes a cape, says "Bleh" has been asleep for like 600 years (Has only been an active vampire for like 10, same power level as the players), and who is of bavarian nobility

>>95850230
Elite conservatives have better things to do with their time. They're making money, and creative hobbies are personal and on the side. Or they're consuming and not caring that much because the Conservative alternatives are observably second rate.

Then there's Con Inc Media, where people that actually have some competence and love for the arts (Shapiro who actually has a bit of a theater background iirc, Walsh, that guy blowing lots of money on song and dance routines) are. They can actually monetize their skills in news and media, even if they couldn't quite make it outside the Conservative Media small pond. They aren't slumming it making nerd shit - they have things that actually make their media empires money to do, although they might talk about it to get clicks and because they have some fondness for it from college (Michelle Malkin has talked about playing D&D in college, for example, and that's probably not uncommon).

The kind of conservative that's a nerd and that gets mad about D&D going woke is often pretty low human capital and kind of a fuck up in general, so those projects stay daydreams or are doomed to failure because the people who undertake them have never once taken the initiative to follow through and finish anything.

>>95850428
>Shapiro
Christ, can you imagine how insufferable he'd be at the table? Politics aside you just know that greasy fucker would be up the DM's ass on every ruling.

>the faggot is still seething about muh conservatives
Current news really got your panties in a twist.

You better fucking leave that multi-billion dollar company alone or I'll get very angry.

>>95841803
That's because they've spent centuries not getting represented. It's time for the people who *were* represented to step aside and be thankful for what they already have.

>>95850606
>That's because they've spent centuries not getting represented. It's time for the people who *were* represented to step aside and be thankful for what they already have.
You were never represented because you never did anything interesting.
You're a loser, your ancestors (biological or spiritual) were losers and your envy for those that did, do and continue doing while relying on the fruit of their efforts is a monument to your hubris.

If you had anything even resembling common sense you'd stay quiet and reap the benefits of civilization instead of trying to tear down its creators.
I'm sure you'll have plenty of representation in the ashes though. Well, if you win that is.

>>95850585
What's the current news?

>>95850606
You really don't want to be represented so you can still continue to play the part of the underdog/victim and have your life have some sort of meaning still.

>>95850593
I'm not sure why you people have been dead set on killing D&D for so long. Is it just because the attempt to legal strongarm it failed? A pride thing?

>>95850266
>Thank you for proving with your own logic that you were being wildly disingenuous.
I'm not. I'm pointing out that even though doing so may "seem" like it's doing something, the only people it actually destroys are those who are unwilling to take the olive branch from the others who were ostracized.
For the rest it's basically like you're exiling people from a fantasy town while also worried about a growing bandit problem in the nearby woods. The failure to stop and consider that maybe these two events could be related is what I am asking you to do.

>Meanwhile, conservatives took legal action, physically stole books, and ALSO ostracized. During an era where it worked much better.
>your people
I am not a conservative, nor was I alive in the 80s, nor would I have done such things if I somehow was a 40-60 year old conservative, nor am I a therapist so I can't really help you with your trauma.
I am more aligned with the Free Culture Movement and a supporter of what the Cypherpunks used to stand for when they were more of a thing (though I'm not a skilled tech person - just more of a dabbler, so the most I can do is use Linux, promote the ideals when it's relevant, and scrape together something to throw in a donation button once in a while.) So I am very anti-censorship.

I imagine if we met in a different thread we might get along. One of the perks of being anon, I guess.

>>95850313
It's very easy to tell when people are pretending to be in any media industry because they act like going to art school has been a good idea since the... fuck, 70s? Maybe early 80s at the latest.

>>95850578
You know he would insist on being DM instead and be the kind who is unbearably boring and bland about it.
>So, consider the situation for a moment. Let's say, hypothetically, you were walking down the stone steps into the dungeon. Let's say, you have a torch. Let's say, hypothetically, you can see 60ft in front of you. Roll a d20.

>>95850634
while representation logic is retarded, you blood and steel types always forget that you rely on brain men with vastly different views than you in nearly every generation.

>>95850578
I'm just saying that most of the people who are right leaning and professional enough to properly edit a book or typeset or do art or light a set well already have jobs in Con Inc. Be wary of the people that aren't. A priori you can pretty safely assume that any independent creator pandering to Based™ Nerds is an incompetent retard, who will probably take the money and run (like EVS in the comic scene).

>>95850665
Don't most modern cartoons get made by students churned out by calarts?

>>95850675
Yes. Anon doesn't know what the fuck he's talking about.
>t. friends work in Animation, degrees are key
>>95850671
This might be a variation on the Public Sector Problem (tm). It's really hard to get teachers (for example) with good STEM degrees because it's one of the least well remunerated things you can do with them. People who are dedicated enough to public service to forgo a literal dump truck of money are few and far between. Creatives are often in the same boat: it's mainstream and money or what you want to make and poverty.

>>95850665
>The failure to stop and consider that maybe these two events could be related is what I am asking you to do.
lol, these kinds of people absolutely can not or else they would no longer be leftists. Also him saying that those evil conservatives hate books are nothing compared to what the left is doing, assuming everything he is saying is even true. All people on the right did was refuse to stock or buy things, the left want to actively ruin your life and throw you in prison for mean tweets.

>>95850675
This is correct. Similarly, Berklee grads often go on to be successful in the music business. It matters.

>>95850705
Anon, the less efficacious cancelling is, the more powerful my argument is about people whining about it being pussies.
Also, legal action, theft, and ostracization in an era where that mattered (and came with violence) are 100% worse than what leftists are doing now. Are you fucking retarded?

>>95850705
>All people on the right did was refuse to stock or buy things
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_satanic_ritual_abuse_allegations
"In the United States, major allegations of satanic ritual abuse occurred in the Kern County child abuse cases, the McMartin preschool trial, and the West Memphis Three, which garnered worldwide media coverage. It was eventually determined that no satanic abuse took place in these cases but that the allegations were due to false testimony and police misconduct. But no governor ever pardoned a prisoner falsely accused of ritual abuse, and Frank Fuster remains imprisoned on such charges."
How fucking young are you?

>>95850666
>No, you don't get it! Civilization would collapse without me and my PhD thesis on the homosexual subtext of African basket weaving.
The fact you imagine anyone that disagrees with you is immediately a 'blood and steel' type betrays how narrow your mind is more than any amount of me talking mad shit about your stupid ass ever could.

>>95850665
If you're not the man I was talking to, then those statements aren't really for you.
Thank you for agreeing that cancellation is toothless.

>>95850738
I keep bees, anon, I'm not some scientist.
It's just an objective fact that you require brain men who disagree with you in every generation. Those of you who cannot cultivate these fall behind those of you who do.

>>95850704
A lot of them would be better off as teachers. The reality for a lot of non-Tech STEM is that you spend $70k on postgrad to become a Scientist Coolie making $50k. Public school teachers probably make more for less effort in most of the US unless you're really dedicated to the zaibatsu grind in a few lucrative R&D sectors.

>>95850736
>Wikipedia
Also abuse in schools 100% happens. They just added the satanic line to it to discredit people. Also this has nothing to do with what we are talking about and once again the left is ten times worse for these scenarios. Please try again and actually talk about games.

>>95850727
>It doesn't count because...
>Also more gaslighitng
Again, people are not buying what you are selling anymore. You lost, and no amount of discord troon dog piling is going to change others minds.

>>95850757
I'm in the UK, but I'm mostly thinking of Maths graduates, anyone with a computer science or engineering degree, etc. Lab science is a little murkier, but you can go a lot further taking your chemistry degree and working in food science or something than becoming a teacher on thirty-something K a year and slogging your guts out for even that.

>>95850753
In that case, I'll talk to you honestly since I think we're getting crossed wires here.
I agree with you, you need people willing to be heretics because, occasionally, a heretic is someone that's just right.
It was heresy to tell doctors to wash their hands at one point.

I'm not a blood and steel type, I'm a 'we should all be on the same boat' type.
My problem is with the fuckers currently giddily attempting to drill a hole in the bottom of the boat because they've realized that not as many people want them steering it straight into the rocks as they originally believed.

I'm not a fan of the will to power, it's a contemptible reality and one we should, given the opportunity, act to overcome, like natural child mortality rates, ect.
But the sad reality is that when you're facing someone who only works on that level, the only way to overcome them is to meet them where they stand. Otherwise they will always, always overcome you.
And they won't even have the decency to write 'Here lies a worthy opponent' on your grave afterwards.

Hope your bees are doing well and your hives thrive.

>>95850769
>>It doesn't count because...
That has nothing to do with what I wrote, I was making a direct statement about how cancelling is some weak shit to be afraid of, and the other guy agreed. Are you just too retarded to read?

>gaslighting
You're fucking retarded.

>>95850769
>this has nothing to do with what we are talking about
The Satanic Panic IS what we're talking about: the right wing attempt to stifle gaming in the 80s and 90s by painting anyone they didn't like as devil-worshipping pedophiles. And the left definitely are not doing nearly as much of it as the right did back in the day. Whiners on Xitter don't count.

>>95850802
I'd never meet a violence meets violence person on their own level anon, we have creatives to invent new atrocities that they could never imagine.

Also, effectively every political party believes the other to be giddily destroying civilization, so that accusation doesn't really mean anything to any of them.

>The Satanic Panic was the right attempting to destroy D&D
Finder Cult, on your way everyone.

>>95850804
>>95850812
I'm not going to tell you the mistake you two are doing right now that you have been doing for the last hour or so but by God are you fucking retarded for doing it in the first place.

>>95850827
>>95850802
though I suppose these arguments are veering off from the previous conversation given the crossed wires.

>>95850831
>Finder Cult, on your way everyone.
Nice to see that somebody knows what they are talking about.

>>95850834
Talking about this shit on 4chan is retarded in the first place, anon.
You being here is a retarded mistake. You could be outside.
In that light, all the other mistakes are pretty minor.

>>95850675
You're thinking of it backwards. Most people who go to calarts get no jobs related to art at all, and those who do most likely don't have a lifetime career from it. While a lot of the people making cartoons are alumni from that and a couple other art schools, that's mostly because of friends-of-friends. /co/ used to have a big "family tree" of CN shows a while back that pointed out how half the things on TV at one point had key people who previously worked on Flapjack or the shows by people who worked on Flapjack. Most of the gruntwork is outsources as well. Going to those schools is a terrible option.

CalArts grads also end up 6 figures in debt.


In other media industries they hire anyone who is either cheap/desperate enough, has crony connections, and has an "okay" portfolio. The bar is cringeily low at times. But this also churns through workers. You rarely get health insurance or other benefits, most professional artists have to lean on their spouse's income and insurance.

>>95850704
>degrees are key
Only in that it shows you are an obedient and desperate individual who will work for shit pay because you have massive debt.
>>95850727
>Anon, the less efficacious cancelling is, the more powerful my argument is about people whining about it being pussies.
>>95850740
>If you're not
>cancellation is toothless.
I am. And you misunderstand. The purpose of ostracization is for someone to end up homeless or dead from suicide or starvation/exposure, as a warning to other people. When you just destroy someone's life but they are still able to rebound due to finding a new community, you are just bolstering an enemy faction.

>The remnants of an enemy can become active like those of a disease or fire. Hence, these should be exterminated completely. One should never ignore an enemy, knowing him to be weak. He becomes dangerous in due course, like the spark of fire in a haystack.
>KAUTILYA, INDIAN PHILOSOPHER, THIRD CENTURY B.C.

Barbaric. Picrel is better.

>>95850851
>Only in that it shows you are an obedient and desperate individual who will work for shit pay because you have massive debt.
Yeah, no shit. I didn't say that they were _good_ I said that they were key to getting in.

>>95841602 (OP)
People who grew up watching anime who's tone swung between slice of life self insert and whatever broader fantasy, are in creative positions now. That's literally it.

>>95850851
Well, I just have to disagree with you on ostracization then, since nowadays all that gets you is some people shitting on twitter. Maybe a talk with HR.
It's only a problem if the people ostracizing you are the ones who give you the money. Which is just... being a dick to the people who pay you.

>>95850884
The intent is to get people who know the person in real life or make business with them to ostracize them. If the cancellation is big enough then often they ARE let go because the company does not like to be "the company that dudeman gotcancelled works at".

People who are independent freelance, self-employed, or small business owners are forced to rapidly renegotiate a lot of things as their suppliers, distributors, contracts, etc are dropped. Either immediately or through "we will not be renewing this" notices. So they then have to find completely different replacements who, in many cases, will be nonexistent and they have to do something else, shuttering all they worked hard for. Stuck either as a nobody with ruined dreams and pointed anger or being given a leg up by said support network of other outcast people.
In some cases there may be alternative channels for the professional lines, but these are very sparse at the moment, limited to specific industries, and still run into the problems of being stuck as cancelled, which means that the uninvolved going "oh that looks neat" end up getting hammered for associating with it.

>>95850884
I realized after I posted that this bears special mention
>being a dick to the people who pay you.
People have been targetted for specifically NOT being a dick - to the wrong people. Simply being FRIENDLY to people that are already considered to be persona non grata.

>>95850942
I have to say, I only ever see this happening with companies known to have these stances.
Which is, again, just being a dick to your employer.

>Oh yeah, my boss wants me to not tell people how awful faggots are for their image. But I'll do it anyway!

Like, what the hell is this? It's like me being an open satanist while working for a good christian mom and pop shop.

>>95850964
Yeah, I've seen people fired for associating with horrible people. I might fire someone too if they spent all day hanging out with, say, meth heads. Or pedophiles. Or any other thing you consider very morally wrong.

>>95850974
>>95850964
Hell, I've seen public defenders get dogpiled for doing their required duty and defending people.

>>95850966
No it's really not. There is a vast world out there of people who really get cancelled only because some psychopath, narcissist or BPD crazy gets a chip on their shoulder and they start digging for random crap or making things up. Or spreading FUD about a person like
>He can't be that nice, he's got to be hiding something
>Does anyone else find it weird how dudeman acts?
>>95850974
>claims to be anti-fundie because 80s fundies were fucking retarded and traumatized him
>judges someone for hanging out with meth heads
Are you serious right now?
>"or any other thing you consider morally wrong"
The quest for moral purity will burn your soul to ashes long before you succeed in even cleansing a spec of evil from the world.

>>95850992
NOT a new phenomenon. Also not a left or right thing exclusively. Look at how Law and Order consistently portrays defence attorneys and public defenders as scum for a right wing example.

>>95851014
>Also not a left or right thing exclusively.
Yes that's point. Bad actions are bad regardless of who performs them. Ends do not justify the means.

>>95851004
Anon, if you're running a business, you need to maintain your image.
That means removing people who act against your image. And I'm sorry that the meth example wasn't good enough for you, in my business someone getting on meth is quite bad since you don't want stimulants around the fucking bees.

How about cannibalism? That work? You would fire a cannibal. You would fire someone that hangs around with a cannibal.
It would be quite bad for a business to be found working with a cannibal lover.

And, again, I can't believe you can't see the difference between a company firing someone for not being marketable, and actual legal action.

>>95851053
>>95851004
Hell, if it was JUST public outcry that made them change D&D, I'd be entirely fine with it.
It's that it came with a spree of legal threats, actual legal cases, violent threats, actual violence, thefts, and more.

>>95851053
>the meth example wasn't good enough for you, in my business someone getting on meth
>You would fire a cannibal
These are completely different from your initial example and my contention. Please do not pogo stick. Firing people for hanging with weirdos is beyond the pale, yes. You should know this given you likely experienced mistreatment for who you hung out with before. The standard does not change based on who has power. Actions are wrong in and of themselves.

>you need to maintain your image
>firing someone for not being marketable
So you understand that cancellation is the act of intentionally trying to make someone associated with "a bad image" and "nonmarketability", yes? That's ostracization. That's cancellation.

I said this multiple times already. Ruining someone's ability to function in society through making that person "socially radioactive".

And someone being "unmarketable" may not even be due to the person himself! It could be that other customers who don't really care about the issue are nevetheless getting annoyed and leaving because of there being others throwing a fit about Dudeman.

>>95851080
Two things can cross the threshold of being wrong to do even if one is way more over the line than the other.

>>95845806
I mean, we now know this isn't quite true. These people were boosted by immense amounts of money, like USAID.
As an example, I point out a few games:
>Sigmata
>Coyote & Crow
>Thirsty Sword Lesbians
Then you have video games like Concord, Hyenas, Tales of Zaum, Forspoken, Fairgames$, Dustborn, that horrid Marathon reboot, and Relooted.
There is absolutely no audience for games like that. They were backed by companies seeking to cash in on the zeitgeist at the time.

>>95846850
Yes, but now we have woke fatigue, any game that is 'woke' or 'DEI' should be stuck with a scarlet letter.
It's my hope that games that are 'anti-white' can be targeted similarly. Personally, I have black fatigue.

>>95851173
One of these things just seems inherently worse than the other, because it included all those other things as well.
Oh no, you're losing your job. At least you're not going to jail.

This is similar to how I feel about most D&D complaining- oh no, your well edited and playtested book has bad content. At least your publisher didn't make your book entirely out of freelancers because he embezzled the money for writers and editors and spent it on toilet renovations, eh?

I guess the lesser problems just seem like bullshit compared to the greater.
That last example was shadowrun by the way, those motherfuckers, I am seething to this day.

>>95851181
If that's the case, the zeitgeist seems to be shifting, no better time than the present, go make the fucking thing please I am BEGGING you and anyone complaining.

>>95851207
>Oh no, you're losing your job. At least you're not going to jail.
Please I beg of you to consider how it would feel for you to lose your bee business because someone found out you post on 4chan and suddenly all the people in your area who used to buy from you started to assume the worst, your retailers/distributors were contacted and told that they were helping to fund someone who is a known user of a "hate network", your workers were harassed because they were "working for someone like you," and your whole operation to go into the red.

>>95841602 (OP)
Anti woke grifter subhumans.

True D&D, both as a game and a hobby, is the same it's always been: Bitching about D&D.

>>95841905
It's worse: Teen culture is largely kept alive by Japan.

>>95850336
>Goodman games hires gay furries
So did the Romans, and they invented civilization and wiping your ass.

>>95848762
Isn't that basically what people want from fantasy though? For the longest time the appeal of fantasy was basically just Game of Thrones. Now it's largely moved to arcadian power fantasies about friendship.

>>95849907
I think people need to be more honest about what kind of game they actually want. Playing in a idealized fun fantasy world isn't inherently bad, I've long thought about running generally lighthearted settings inspired by games like Puyo Puyo or Kirby. But that actually requires you to use the right system and game, as well as to abandon the pretensions of being medieval or rooted in real history. As well as a system that matches that kind of game.

>>95851298
>For the longest time the appeal of fantasy was basically just Game of Thrones
That never entered my field of view. It was all a mishmash of Skyrim, Final Fantasy, (Post-Cata)WoW, Harry Potter, Dr Who, League of Legends, and Sequel Star Wars during that time.

>>95850118
FF14 is weird though since the story is fairly self serious. It's mostly the players that are turning it into a weird urbanite simulator.

>>95851282
Japan is the only one willing to put money into teen culture because Japanese adults idolize their high school years as the last time they had true individual freedom.

>>95851328
I generally hung out with hipsters, meaning most of those games were never really in the wheelhouse of anybody I played with. I'm trying to approach this mostly as a normie looking in from the distance.

>>95851324
>But that actually requires you to use the right system and game, as well as to abandon the pretensions of being medieval or rooted in real history. As well as a system that matches that kind of game.
100000% correct!!!
Too many people who suggest games other than D&D come across as spiteful and culty when they suggest it. Like someone who happened upon a vulnerable person and is selling them a snake oil solution to their problems by suggesting games they personally like.

I don't fucking like games like FATE but I will happily recc them to people who want a game more like that, because the more people playing games they enjoy means less bitching about how much they have to modify ones they already do to make them fun.

This even happens with like, a lot of D&D stuff. Half of the people who complain about things like alignment being too rigid or there being too many high power things in a setting or wanting more common magic should just play Eberron instead of something like FR, because it's inentionally built with a lot of D&D stables flipped on their heads. And there's other settings for other purposes too.

>>95851351
That and they can't just sell adult shit to Teenagers like people in the west do.

>>95851014
Lawyers in general are scumbags.

>>95851298
Dunno about you, but from my own years, I gathered most people wanted something more like the Herculoids/Thundarr the Barbarian/He-Man and the Masters of the universe, just painted up in Baldur's Gate style shit. Even if they more or less ended up like the D&D Cartoon due to their own lackadasical choices.

>>95851453
Honestly, I've largely burned out on fantasy as a genre due to watching too much slop. I don't really know what appeals to most people when it comes to fantasy, and to be frank I'm not 100% sure what they like.

I personally tend to like stuff that is generally more historical or grounded. Been on a bit of a Fire Emblem kick and honestly trying to understand what it is about that game that I like compared to most fantasy.

>>95851472
When it comes to fantasy, I find that the literary crowd is pretty different from what they expect in their fantasy compared to say tabletop groups. So I would not be surprised at all for fantasy readers to prefer something more ground and historic to sink their teeth into. I'm just noting from my experience most tables just want more barebones excuses to explore and raid wherever they want in all its genre mishmashy glory, with the whole "comfy cafe friendship" thing usually just relegated to downtime moments when the party's characters are getting drunk or doing last minute preparation before taking on a dungeon boss monster. It's why I'm skeptical of WOTC's promotion of the supposed "comfy" side of adventuring, since my tables have generally only treated things like that as the desert rather than the meal itself.

>Been on a bit of a Fire Emblem kick and honestly trying to understand what it is about that game that I like compared to most fantasy
Honestly, once you remove the dragons and some of the furries, the Fire Emblem series is a very serviceable series of the pains of war, from the backstabbing to the alliance shifting to the young idealistic types being forced to change and evolve their viewpoints or be broken by them if they want to stop the wars ravaging their lands. It can be good stuff.

>>95851541
Most tabbletop groups I've played with are kind of odd, so I'll freely admit I often struggle knowing what your average game of D&D looks like. But, far as I can tell, is that it is a dungeon crawl system at the end of the day and that is probably what most people are here for.

>It can be good stuff.
Yeah. I like the way they handle most of the actual more magical elements as well. It always feels, for lack of a better word, very mythological. Like you can tell that once upon a time the world was a far more magical place, but what you are dealing with today is largely all that's left.

Not sure if it would work as a tabbletop rpg though. Seems better for a wargame with a lot of rpg mechanics and a group that likes roleplaying more than winning.

>>95851472
>I don't really know what appeals to most people when it comes to fantasy, and to be frank I'm not 100% sure what they like.
They like what they see in isolated art and images and memes and the idea of an adventure.
Most fantasy writing and shows does not get this across at all. It's either disjointed and opaque, unique and difficult to make workable outside of the story that exists, or the themes fall to heavily on a narrative railroad that wouldn't be fun to play. Many people take inspo from videogames too, but those break down as well because they're low-resolution in terms of gameplay and visuals, very abstracted from how the gameworld "actually is" and thus lack the verisimilitude to be easy to translate. There's also the wrinkle of having to counter expectations, like if you were to run a WoW-based game, Elwynn would be much bigger than the videogame shows, Golshire would be more than a handful of buildings and there would be dozens more small towns and farms across the whole landscape. Travel would take much more time, and so on. These are things a lot of people trip up on.

There's also the crowd that pretty much has only read YA fiction so... their expectations are pretty difficult to work with.

>>95851589
There are lots of tabletop games that are more about warfare in big battlefields and the general sense of being on a military campaign over the decades. I don't know what ones are really good though, it's not something I've looked into. You might like the manga Historie though, if I am catching your vibe.

>>95851624
I've mostly run campaigns based on Touhou. And a lot of that is spend dealing with the fact that the story and setting, in both the game and manga, is very limited and trying to expand it while staying true to what I think people like about it. I imagine that's probably how I would approach any given fantasy setting as well. Not sure if it's the right approach though.

>There's also the crowd that pretty much has only read YA fiction so... their expectations are pretty difficult to work with.
I could be wrong, but wouldn't those generally gravitate towards White wolf products? I know not everything is Harry Potter, but it still feels like the typical formula.

>There are lots of tabletop games that are more about warfare in big battlefields and the general sense of being on a military campaign over the decades.
If I ever found a system like that, I would love to try it out.

>You might like the manga Historie though, if I am catching your vibe.
Will look into it, yeah.

>>95851258
Yeah, that's a risk of posting here. It's best to keep one's head down.

>>95851699
And honestly, now that I think about it, has basically been the status quo for most of my life.
From D&D to 4chan, there's always been an unmarketable secret. This is why the rule to not talk about the internet in the real world was invented.

>>95850371
And I want a table full of players like you, but this is the real world so you have to play an Asian immigrant who pilots drones for the local police force and microbrews IPAs while trying to hide his vampirism from his wife's boyfriend, and I have to run game for mentally ill homeless Facebook addicts who think liberals aren't right-wing extremists and that there's any meaningful difference in the policies of either group of genocidal plutocrats we're supposed to pretend we believe we have to choose from. C'est la guerre.

>>95851896
One day I'll get to play my caped vampire.

>>95842066
Then you should probably kill yourself because you're such an assault on my eyes I can tell you're a fat, ugly, unloved lardaass through text alone. You type like you're fat.

>>95850966
>It's like me being an open satanist while working for a good christian mom and pop shop.
You mean like suing a Christian mom and pop shop for not baking you a pro-faggotry cake since it goes against their morals?

>>95853731
no, this is even more retarded. It's straight up just biting the hand that feeds.

>>95846850
>the people making the games sympathized with them
Were paid to sympathize with them, you mean. And now that the money faucet has run dry, they suddenly don't care and are actively walking back these initiatives. And wanna guess what the most cited reason these big corps are ni longer flying rainbows this June? That's right, FEAR OF BACKLASH FROM THE GENERAL PUBLIC

Ergo, shouting works.

>>95851351
It's more that adults in the west have yet to grow up, so they still act like bitchy teens. You have 30-40 year olds talking about "adulting" and thinking they're still "hip" for fucks sake. Japan has a similar problem with writers whose only life experience is reading the works of others, but its not as pronounced as it is in the west since their media industries haven't completely shut out all new blood and outsiders so they still get fresh perspectives in to shake things up

>>95853736
I agree, woke is very retarded and yet they had institutional endorsement to be retarded and evil like that for literal decades. Glad you finally conceded and saw the light in the end, at least.

>>95846839
No retard, you actively shout AND refuse to financially support things. You do both to make sure the idiot CEOs listening to rainbow wormtongue get the message driven deep into their thick skulls that gay shit doesn't sell. "Just ignoring it" amd this gay ass turn the other cheek, head in the sand cucked ostrich shit is how things got this bad in the first place.

>>95849925
>they got a job at WOTC
BECAUSE they shouted enough, yes.
>You're just seething about this, apparently, you fucking SJW.
Translated: "NYOOO don't you HECKIN DARE hoist me by my own petard ypu heckin CHUDCEL! Rules for THEE, not ME!!"

>>95849907
>The issue really came when they started melding more of their own reality to the fantasy to create a sort of idealized world, one where you can go on dates to a fancy but affordable cafe then adventure
Why is that "a problem"? Or at least, why is it more of "a problem" than, say 1e D&D having humans being potentially better wizards and elves and human (males) potentially stronger than half orcs?
Hell, the whole "adventurer/band of misfits defeating some ancient dragon or evil sorcerer" is also silly but we know it's enjoyable.

>>95853834
Why do conservatives always pretend that they are unable to read when they start losing the argument?

>>95853888
Man, you're really seething that you don't have an art portfolio, huh?
perhaps if you ever tried even a little.

>>95853875
You already tried that, it just made everyone want 100% more faggotry because you were so insufferable.

>>95853875
>>95854593
Also, now that I think about it, there's been no time in tabletop history where you weren't shouting about how evil it was and refusing to buy it.
Conservatives have been boycotting tabletop for being evil for half a century.

>>95851296
Right, but the point is is between the gay furry employees running con games and shitting on Republicans in XCrawl and XCC, in spite of the Old School moniker, Goodman Games is not actually chuddy or Based™.

>>95853911
It's only a problem insofar as I see a lot more would-be players on places like twitter and reddit arguing for the idea that DMs are "obligated" to make their table happy, meaning that if they want to do a dungeon crawl but a player/s want to have comfy pub crawls instead, then the DM is obligated to provide it regardless of how they feel. As opposed to how it used to be, where if the players don't like what the DM's game sounds like, they just go and find another one that will give them what they want.

Aka it's not a big deal at all, but it's lead to a lot more awkward and unnecessary fights, along with discussions of expectations coming to the table regarding how much the DM should kowtow to their table's interest vs their own

>>95853875
>get the message driven deep into their thick skulls that gay shit doesn't sell
It does sell. It sells to people who strongly care about gay shit. That includes people who don't care about anything else.
Someone who doesn't play any games will still purchase them purely because it "shows solidarity against hate in gaming" or whatever convoluted reasoning they come up with.

It went from
>Don't ask questions, just consume product and get excited for next products.
to
>It's a moral imperative to consume product and get excited for next products, [opposition] are the only ones who are asking questions.

Yelling only makes those people want to consoom harder, piling on credit so they can keep up with all the consumerist culture.

>>95853801
If anything this is more likely happening because of the economy being weird. There's both a lot of bizarrity with retail tanking and yet conspicuous consumption is out of control. People are blowing a ton of money on luxury items - the scalper markets wouldn't be able to upcharge so much if people didn't pay for it, and people wouldn't pay for it if they didn't have the money to. For the last like 10 years product lines were shifting to a split between low end basic stuff and ultra limited edition luxury shit, with the middle falling out.
Now it looks like a lot of entertainment and small-luxury corporations are returning to 90s pricing, cutting out much of the the low end and recentering on targeting the upper-middle-class and high end in terms of how much of a % of income their products are priced at. This is somewhat related to the old "affordable" luxury brands like Gucci and LV starting to slow down as well.

To that end it makes sense that they're also cutting down on the blatant advertising to mass-movement signal. The items are still being produced but at this point they don't have to try. June has become the rainbow counterpart to May's pastels.

>>95850665
>It's very easy to tell when people are pretending to be in any media industry because they act like going to art school has been a good idea since the... fuck, 70s? Maybe early 80s at the latest.
Reminder that this blackpilled the Roger Rabbit guy

>>95856008
Nevar 4get

>>95841602 (OP)
In a better thread on a better board there might be a way to really dig into why "fantasy" and "modern" are seen as innately contradictory as though a world that doesn't exist is always bound to be a metaphor for our reminiscing about the medieval/ancient world. But this isn't that thread, or that board. It does make me wonder though, if sci-fi contrasts this by implicitly being in the future and having "futuristic" technology even if it's set in the present in a world that isn't our own, what would premodern science fiction look like? Besides Romans with laser rifles or whatever.

>>95854586
>>95854593
>>95854604
>>95855928
>shouting down fagshit doesn't work so stop doing it please please PLEASE stop it's TOTALLY not working!
Lol.
Lmao.

>>95857368
>he doesn't know how to read between the lines
Let me put the weirdo glassed on for you so you can see exactly what that is saying.

>Oh no, rightwingers are threatening them. I knew it! We really need to get DRUMPF out of office, we have to stop fascism from rising. Jagex is an ally and safe space and even they're under threat, so they must be supported against the tide of evil that is making the world go to shit!

It's quite easily a reaction to the fact that people are realizing nothing happened in 2016-2020, so rolling back this stuff and blaming it on rightwingers is a perfect grift to get even more polarized support.

Because really, when was the last time you heard about people bitching about runescape pride shit of all things? It's more likely that it WAS in fact ignored and they needed an angle to drum up relevancy.
In the very screenshot it's even saying they're still doing a fucking event for it, just not adding more and discontinuing a mini-quest (which gives people more FOMO to keep playing as other mini-quests might similarly get discontinued in the future.)

You are playing right into their hands by even bothering to share the screenshot.

>>95857486
>xhe thinks it's merely going to stop here
Lol, how preciously naive.

>>95857500
I don't like woke shit. I'm just very aware of how easily such activists are duped into CONSOOMing. You had to have watched some of the riots, people wearing all kinds of merch - one had a fucking ugly backpack that was just a repeated pattern of the fallout vault boy for example. They are addicted to social signalling, willing to not just spend, but BURN money on it through such things being damaged or tossed after they're no longer in fashion (or after they have to move because their polycule broke up) and companies very much are tapping into this stupidity.

The segment of them that was really into DIY has gotten sidelined by buyfags.

Hell even on here I remember when /tg/ used to have threads about DUPLICATING your minis with resin casting, modding with greenstuff, or full on DIY-ing minis from objects a la the ancient deoderant land speeder. Not just 3d printing.
Hell for a while the RPG hobby in general had crazy shit popping up all the time like rebinding rulebooks with fancy leather covers too.

>>95857650
>again, xhe thinks these minor capitulations are going to be enough
But hey, keep up those paltry, transparent demotivation tactics, xister!

>>95857665
>tell him that these soulless companies only want to appeal to braindead consoomers
>"they're totally turning around guyz, they'll stop soon enough, we're winning!"
>meanwhile, the braindead consoomers are just consooming harder because they're being told their enemies are increasing in strength

Maybe they will turn around, if enough people like you exist to eat their slop.

>>95857705
>nooo you HAVE to stop kneeling on the necks of people try to insert fagslop into everything or else THEY WIN

>>95841803
This applies to white dudes who throw tantrums when the protagonist is a black guy as well. Please see the western debate around whether or not Yasuke was a samurai vs the Japanese “oh cool I remember that dude from history class” following that Assassin’s Creed game.

>>95857741
You aren't actually kneeling on their neck. You are playing into their hand.

The large, often publicly-traded corporations doing this stuff aren't neutral resources that you are struggling for control of.
They are actively attempting to extract as much value out of the population for as little work as possible.

The only winning move is to not play, and to support smaller companies that aren't retarded. It's not ceding the mainstream, it's getting off a sinking ship.

>>95857766
To be fair, half the issue with that one was because most of what we know about Yasuke in the west came from one source, who had to admit that he made most of what he knew the fuck up. It doesn't take away from the fact Yasuke was Nobunaga's attendant and weapon-bearer and had enough responsibilities to make him a full member of the samurai class, but shit like that muddies the water when you combine it with knee-jerk reactions from the anti-wokies.

>>95857766
>>95858107
Honestly, I couldn't give a shit about Yasuke. I remember Afro Samurai. Like I said, relatable outside problem. Most people who did care are the people who get riled up by dramaslop on Youtube.

>>95858153
Fair. I just like stories like Yasuke's both for history and inspiration for tabletop characters being foreigners from continents away showing up wherever the rest of the table is.

>>95848660
>and literally who?
Not quoted but I can recall a couple of others.
Macris is an obvious one whose very mention habitually causes sperg-reactions from offsiters because he like a decade ago did some law work for that one gay rightwing influencer. (incidentally he's had had work contracts revoked based on sjw spergs in the industry)
There's the Pundit who got shitcanned by WotC over similar stuff and Mearls by extension of daring to associate with Zak.
Gorgonmilk being forced out of Dolmenwood (before it became disneywood) and having his regular non-writing job threatened because he said he didn't agree with Antifa street violence in a chatroom with rpg writers.
There's a couple other public ones like Evil Hat trying to cause shit with a bunch of indie games by threatening dtrpg with pulling their catalogue.
Frank Mentzer getting shitcanned from Gencon based on a several years old messages along with blatant lies by Price.
A couple of failed ones like Paizo/Jessica Price going after Frog God (until they threatened to sue with witnesses) and the Hydra collective shitheads trying to force NTRPGCon to ban Mentzer and getting told to shove it up their ass.

>>95850180
>because they're the only people that get shit done in creative ventures.
Hasn't been true for decades now.
It's all has-beens and leeches.

>>95858235
Macris is the perfect example of why catering to the Based Twitter Right is fucking stupid. He traded his previous OSR Reddit normielib audience for Based Gamers who don't actually support their indie guys. That he's doing somewhat okay now is a testament to his talent, but a valuable lesson in how big of a mistake it is to cater to widely disliked people that don't even patronize you or go to bat for you.

>>95850812
>the right wing attempt to stifle gaming in the 80s and 90s
Rightwingers like CBS, 60 minutes, Steven Stern, Tom Lazarus and Tom Hanks.
The satanic panic was bipartisan and largely fuelled by Hollywood and news channels making money off it and soccer moms both christian and not being worried about kids an heroing.

>>95858316
>Yeah he's actually doing fine but he shouldn't have done legal work for some rightwinger
lmao

Le comfy cafe shit is just the thinly-veiled female porn sold as "romantasy" on the bookstore shelves that used to hold actual fantasy books.
That's why you see the D&D writers push it. That's the crowd they're appealing to. They're just smut peddlers.

>>95857766
>Japanese “oh cool I remember that dude from history class” following that Assassin’s Creed game.
lol, I take it you only read some twitteroids defense of the game where they lied and posted in mtl:ed broken nip.
Not only did it have some of the worst initial sales of an AssCreed game over there the japanese who actually talked about the game online were absolutely seething about it because of Ubisoft claiming it was a historically accurate rendition in their original PR spiels, stealing copyrighted JP assets and citing Lockley who was claiming that Japan was responsible for the black slave trade among other things that made them angry.
Incidentally the "history" you talk about lead to Lockley getting fired from his associate professorship and getting blacklisted from nip academia for blatantly falsifying history.

>>95858399
He's worse off than he would have been, with an audience that's more broke or less appreciative than what he had before - so yeah, he shouldn't have done legal work for that guy (Milo iirc). Nobody that's ever associated with groypers has had their career benefit from it. Not even a billionaire like Kanye can escape the career black hole of the association.

>>95841602 (OP)
The ultimate fa/tg/uy redpill is to reject all established settings, every single one, and make your own. Quit believing in the myth of published legitimacy: that your setting isn't good because it's not been published for money. It IS good, and really, it's probably already better than most "official" settings if you put even a modicum of effort into it. You don't need to argue lore, themes, and so on when you're the one making it.

>>95858874
>Quit believing in the myth of published legitimacy
IME this is very difficult for most people wrapped up in consumer-culture (or who are older than 40) to even conceive of. Not to mention that if they grasp the idea, it destabilizes their entire method of judging whether or not someone speaking is worth anything, and cracks their view of social hierarchy. They struggle to deal with the notion that they have to take each statement as its own thing and can't just shortcut to assuming that [publishing = vetted for merit]

It needs to be said more often honestly. Kicking that house down has to happen at some point.

>>95857368
It obviously doesn't since you've been seething about it for 50 years, and only made people hate you more.

>>95858874
I'd love to make my own settings more often, but I have a hard time working out what components I need to make it "complete", which probably sounds ridiculous. The best I generally get is a vague geographic regional description, followed by a barebones government and more focus on local cultures that might be met by my party. And that always feels more minimalist than I want.

>>95857831
>by making them capitulate and go out of business you're PLAYING INTO THEIR HANDS
>the only way to win is to accept that things will NEVER get better and CONSOOOOOOOM
lol

>>95859266
>if I just try to get D&D banned HARD enough, they'll love me!
lol

>>95859266
>>95859276
Why do conservatives want to kill tabletop so badly?
There's never been an era where they weren't trying. It's been lockstep for as long as I've been alive.

>>95859285
It's because it uses imagination, and is thus evil to them.
The content doesn't matter, all that matters is someone is imagining something, which is inherently evil, apparently.

>>95859285
>>95859295
Not quoted but
>if you don't absolutely suckle the tit of every garbage political opinion shat out by wotc you're killing the hobby!
Ever since your kind got a stranglehold of the game it's been all downhill. It's never been deader in spirit than now.

>>95859425
Conservaniggers will say shit like this and only buy the most mainstream sloppa while grumbling about sparklepunk representation. They don't make independent stuff, and they certainly don't support their guys making independent stuff.

Don't cater to ingrates. No matter how good their argument is, rhetoric doesn't pay bills, and you have zero obligation to cater to people that as a matter of course pirate, only buy mainstream slop (while bitching), and don't crowdfund their guys' shit (and to be fair, they've learned from the last decade of culture war crowdfunding that vocally right wing creators have a bad habit of fucking off with your money). Conservanogs are ungrateful cheapskates.

>>95859266
Never said
>the only way to win is to accept that things will NEVER get better and CONSOOOOOOOM
The way things get better is by starving the beast. Companies learned how to troll the % of the population that used to buy their shit to court a larger % of the population who is stupider and more loose with their wallets.

>>95859285
>>95859295
>>95859526
None of what you guys have said is an accurate picture of the people that actually dislike what you do. You and the "screech louder" tard are mirrors of each other, whose existence is only defined by what you stand against. You have no independence outside of ideological lenses.

>>95859425
You've literally never not been seething about this.
For all of tabletop history, you've been trying to seethe tabletop to death.
>>95859551
I just judge by actions, rather than what they say.
Continuous work against creativity? Must not like creativity.

>>95859698
>>95859551
It always reminds me of the abortion issue.
The conservatives will have you believe they want babies born as a moral stance, but when you look at the numbers, they actually want as many babies to be born then die as possible. It's a soul harvesting scheme.

>>95859698
>Continuous work against creativity? Must not like creativity.
Define "creativity."
Yes I'm aware that that's an entire philosophical rabbit hole, it's a rhetorical question to get you to understand that you're similarly just using rhetoric for social-constructivist warmongering rather than making concrete substantive claims that can be discussed for truthseeking purposes.
>>95859711
They have a lean more towards deontological and virtue ethics, many reject consequentialism in whole or in part.
Most people believe in contradictions, but the one you are seeing is actually ethically-consistent under a different framework. If you want to argue that such a framework is wrong, I'm not a conservative so I can't do that for you.

>>95859744
>define creativity
Nah, not gonna argue semantics. They've been vocally against tabletop since they heard about it near universally.

>>95859744
The framework they claim to have is not the framework they have.
They claim to respect life, while doing their very best to end as many lives as possible in all regions. Cutting medical research, damaging the environment, encouraging the birthing then murdering of babies, the list goes on.
They obviously just want as many souls as possible, all other objectives are secondary.

>>95859759
>They
>since they heard about it
Anon all the people from back then who did such a thing are around retirement age, in old folks' homes, or dead.

>>95859780
The framework they have is deontological ethics or virtue ethics, with an exlusion of or much-reduced emphasis on consequentialism. You are arguing from a framework where consequentialism is the primary thing.

There are conflicts because you measure whether an action is ethical or unethical differently from them. You use the results, they see certain actions as inherently good or bad (deontological) or good or bad depending on if they uphold certain principles (virtue ethics), with only a smaller amount of things viewed based on their consequences, typically things with lesser stakes or which aren't adequately covered by the rules they have for the rest of life. Their worldview IS contradictory, but not for the reasons you assume. However, so is yours.

>>95859808
>all people who did such a thing
No, they've been continuously doing it, generation after generation.
You even have one, here, in this very thread, trying his damndest to shut down tabletop by any means possible.

>>95859808
Yeah, when dealing with liars you kind of have to look at their works, rather than what they say.
Consequences are the only method of accurately judging their goals, since anything they say about the goals should be discounted.

You, for instance, are making the mistake of believing they are doing it for reasons of virtue ethics. It's obviously just to harvest souls.

>>95859815
>No, they've been continuously doing it, generation after generation.
They are not the same individuals.
>You even have one, here, in this very thread, trying his damndest to shut down tabletop by any means possible.
He is a moron but he has said no such thing. You just assume that because you are seeing that if "people like him" have control of it, that it will kill it.

From how you write, you have some serious trauma and I highly recommend seeing a therapist, or bringing it up to yours if you already have one. Viewing individuals across decades as mere extensions of a greater egregore is really not healthy.

>>95859831
>Consequences are the only method of accurately judging their goals
Why do you believe that? The very nature of deontology is that consequences don't matter, actions are inherently right or wrong regardless of who taking them hurts or helps.
And virtue ethics is similar, but more abstract and I admit I don't understand it fully myself since I've never met someone who is both a self-described virtue ethicist and is willing to talk about it in plain terms.
>It's obviously just to harvest souls.
I was assuming this was hyperbolic but now I'm starting to think you're an /x/-escapee. Please confirm if this is a joke or serious.

>>95859857
>Why do you believe that
Because you cannot judge them by any other standard, as they are known liars, and thus feeding you misinformation when convenient.

And no, they're likely working to get as many souls as possible, nearly all metrics point to it, and it explains their stances near universally.
I don't believe in souls, but if we assume they do, then shit, it all checks out.
Now if they DON'T believe in souls, then this shit is nuttier.

>>95859857
>they are not the same individuals
That's what generation after generation means.
>That's not what he said!
He literally imagines himself kneeling on the neck of the corporation, in reference to a guy who died. He is using whatever means he can, as limited as they are, to do as much damage to the industry as he can.

>>95859872
>you cannot judge them by any other standard
They act consistently, though. To use your example, they view murder as being wrong in all cases (note: murder is not a synonym for killing). Their stance is that a fetus is a defenseless innocent human being, and that killing it is thus murder, and unethical to do so. That's the end of the logic chain, there's nothing more than that. It's very simple, and to the point. There is literally nothing more than that.

>>95859885
>He literally imagines himself kneeling on the neck of the corporation
No, as much as I tried to point out otherwise - in his view the corporation is a neutral third party being led around. He was imagining himself kneeling on the neck of people like YOU. Not the corporation, you. You and him are viewing people as just agents of groups, not as individuals. It's a big reason why you are in such shitty conflict, you refuse to see each others' humanity.

>>95859924
>They view murder to be wrong in all cases
No they don't, they directly attempt to increase rates of various types of murder, like infanticide.
They don't care about the murder itself, they just want the murder to happen AFTER the baby gets its soul. That's it, that's the end of the logic.

>>95859924
Ah yes, he just wants to kill the various members of the corporation, that's so much different and a hair split that truly changes the points at hand.

And also discounts the attempts to do anything possible to destroy tabletop, including fucking with discourse here as much as possible.

>>95859935
>they directly attempt to increase rates of various types of murder, like infanticide
Please provide strong evidence for this strong claim. I have no reason to believe this on face value, in part because I cannot conceive of how someone would "try to increase the rate of murder". It doesn't parse as something you can causally link, but maybe I am missing some information.

>>95859951
>that's so much different and a hair split that truly changes the points at hand.
If you try to view things from his POV, as I can so easily, he quite literally is seeing the corporation as an institution independent from the people inside it, and he believes he's in a power struggle with people like you for control of it. It's as simple as that. You view each other as inhuman monsters because you are stuck in a mode of ideological combat, not person-to-person discourse.

>the attempts to do anything possible to destroy tabletop, including fucking with discourse here as much as possible
You have demonstrated that you are a social constructionist who believes that reality is defined by what people believe, and thus anything critical of the parts of the status quo you like are a threat to the reality you enjoy. You also have stated that you have trauma regarding events in your childhood, so you are approaching this from a position where you are marrying your personal awful experiences with whatever is going on here. I implore you to close the tab and call to schedule and appointment with a/your therapist.

>>95859990
Why are you getting into retarded philosophical nonsense? Reality's the shit that's in front of you.
When you see a man doing anything possible to disrupt something while never engaging with it in any other way, it's pretty obvious what their agenda is.

>>95859990
Sids rates go up commensurately with abortion restrictions in nearly every state. Texas, as usual, is somehow an exception.
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/et6bSTRQbB0afGDOmqZPqOY5Nb6RL2-F7vhu__oNuxdFdIo8QsmTpYeJYzvFzn_5HRoslI2NXi_q5xmpd4wVirivIqbHjfZv3znTZ687_xPW-K8w-OZTZwfxBDiWMKzXrPKRpicxyCjUAbHiLyOGiPw

https://www.kff.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/03/240312_Limited-Abortion-Coverage-Due-to-Bans-Hyde-Amendment_FI_V3.png

Have a few google results.

And I don't really need to spell out to you why sids rates tend to match the rates of abandoned babies in societies that view that as more okay.

>>95860014
>Why are you getting into retarded philosophical nonsense? Reality's the shit that's in front of you.
Peoples' reasoning is guided by their philosophical assumptions. They don't frequently take a meta view of how things work when conflict occurs.
If you don't understand why people act, you can't ever resolve conflicts with such people. Thus it's imperative for all parties within such discourse to be as understanding and good-faith charitable to the positions of each other as possible.

Well, at least it's not possible to resolve such things without doing so violently. But that's a barbaric way of treating discourse, and is just a might-makes-right position. And since pretty much any worldview holds self-defense as an ethical option (even if some do not exend this to their enemies) violent conflict will only result in a bloodbath.

I don't think you want that.

>>95860038
>Sids rates go up commensurately with abortion restrictions in nearly every state. Texas, as usual, is somehow an exception.
Well, you mentioned murder. SIDS isn't murder. It specifically relates to it being sudden and there are various ways people can treat their baby to reduce the risk of it.
>sids rates tend to match the rates of abandoned babies
Correlation and causation aren't the same thing.
But I will consider your implication there on its own merits, ignoring the underpinning issue for a moment. So, if we consider that they somehow are related, they obviously don't see abandoning or smothering a baby as ethical either and would treat such a parent as a murderer just the same.

I don't see how your hypothesis of them being "pro-soul-harvesting" holds up, when their very worldview seems to still be consistently against murder. Remember, they do not (often... again their OVERALL worldview is inconsistent and I'm not a conservative here so I'm trying my best) judge the RESULTS of an action, but simply the action itself. It's not about "reducing death rates", it's just "anti-murder."

>>95858942
It's a difficult mindset to break out of but I'm happy I personally managed to. I realized I was feeling like I had to be in the shadow of these published settings, but when I looked into published settings and started having more and more complaints, i.e. I'd have done this and not that, that should be different, etc, I just said fuck it and made my own worlds. Never looked back and had great times ever since.

>>95859186
IMO a lot of official settings, if not all, suffer from too many cooks in the kitchen. There's excessive detail and meddling in every little nook and cranny and overall you're forced to basically doodle in the margins of what someone else wrote. Start generic and broad, that's what most writers do anyway. Establish a concept, a region for your players to be in, and then flesh it out. Don't get caught up in details, because your players will probably miss 90% of the worldbuilding and lore you make. Don't sweat it, they'll enjoy what they run into.

The #1 thing to make your own setting work is passion. Your players will pick up on that and having a setting you're actually interested in and passionate for will be a refreshing change of pace to a more stale, "impersonal" official setting.

>>95860295
Thanks, anon. That does help put things into perspective. Now I just have to commit to putting the setting onto text document instead of keeping it in my head, but that's far less of an issue since at least now I have a direction to start in.

>>95860339
nta, I highly reccomend either using something like neocities to store it or an organizational tool like nebulous, logseq, obsidian, or fantasia archive

>>95860109
There's no shame when a baby dies of "SIDS" anon.
like how throughout history, they called abandoning a baby by many names.
They are 100% all about making sure more people die, faster.

>>95860634
Are you claiming that SIDS is fake and just a ploy to cover up intentional murders?

>>95860659
I'm claiming that a large amount of them are intentional, yes, given the rate of intentional baby killing throughout history and in other societies where measurable.

It's just a socially acceptable code for what has been done.

>>95860670
This is once again a strong claim that requires strong evidence.
And in fact there's research that shows its a minor factor https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6474533/#section3-2017.018

Regardless, your statement has not interfaced with what was said:
If they recognized that a person has in fact murdered their baby, even if they covered it up with calling it SIDS, they would view that as murder.

Now some people may not believe it, because that happens a lot
>Soandso would never do that it can't be true!
type of shit happens in ALL camps of people. It's not a unique thing to a "side".

>>95860704
The study you linked assumes MUCH more investigation into each baby death than is actually had.
Also, many of these died just of straight suffocation, an incredibly easy thing to fake.

"Oh yeah, doctors say these babies died of suffocation, and when we opened them up, they had signs of suffocation, but that could have come from anything" My fuckin' ass.

And as for even more solid evidence than the sids rate in healthy babies going up mysteriously when abortion laws come up, what the fuck do you expect? Baby bones don't preserve well and the topic is a taboo. You already don't accept the incongruous increase in SIDS, so I wonder what metric you'd like to measure by.

>>95860739
And, of the baby bones we DO have, yeah, a lot of them look like their skulls were fucking cracked open.
Or they were torn the fuck apart.

>>95860659
It 100% is meant to cover up avoidable baby deaths, most of which are accidental retard shit like overstuffed cribs that smother babies, not intentional, but probably a good number of them are intentional, too.

SIDS presents as asphyxia, but people are too afraid to investigate because they are afraid of lawsuits as there will be a lot of false positives, too, and the doctors and lawyers want to "Protect the families from heartache".

It's like how overdoses and suicides in the UK are often ruled as "Death by misadventure"

>>95859276
>love me or else I'll end your whole business
That's LITERALLY what the left did thobeit.

>>95841602 (OP)
4e

>>95849907
>Yeah sure at first it was racial diversity and stuff and no shut up diversity is fine.
https://youtu.be/C1Uaog2lmtI?t=50

>>95860704
if babies are dying in the period of history where child mortality during childbirth is at an all time low, then its intentional.

>>95850044
You write like a complete faggot.