Monk status = obliterated Edition

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tq: thoughts on using sf2e characters in pf2e adventures and vice versa?

What happened to Monk?

>>95847241
Nothing, but monk players will cease to exist the exact moment there is any interruption in their performance of victimhood.

>>95847235
I'll take a look, probably replace parry with some other trait.

>>95847624
Only found Ironblood Stance and changed it to forceful
https://scribe.pf2.tools/v/M89l6Vvf

>>95847241
Nothing, the class functions mostly fine, a lot of people are just annoyed the meta ways to build it involve strapping a shield to your arm and being either a robot or part dragon, and that Monk weapons might as well not exist for how not worth the price of admission they are.

>>95848072
This is like every class in Pathfinder 2e though. The "meta" way to build ANY class is usually a really retarded min-maxy mess that goes against the spirit and fantasy of the class.

>>95840786
what do you think of resentment witch?

>>95848539
I don't know how many classes are so aggressively defined by how against the default image the advice for playing them is to the degree monk is, though. Magus for sure since "just play starlit span lol" is stupid as shit. I guess casters if you want to argue about how they play? Gunslinger fucking sucks but it's still "guy with gun" regardless of subclass, and I'm not going to fault that the best way to play something like Drifter is "pair a sword that has a gun bolted onto it with your regular ass pistol".

Like, I don't see many people saying you need to go any weirder than "Human Guisarme Fighter with Sudden Charge and Slam Down" or"Human Rogue with Gang Up and Opportune Backstab" to make a fighter or that will carry your ass through the entire game.

How worth it is Quick Shield Block on Champion over something like Second Blessing or another 8th level feat?

>>95848758
Do you already have shield blessing/an upgraded shield, and do you use shield block a lot, but want to be able to use your champion reaction? Do you plan on taking Shield of Reckoning? Take Quick Shield Block, it's pretty strong. Do you not care about shield blocking and just want to save your reaction for champion reaction? Then don't.

>>95849015
I'd feel bad about posting my build, but anything is better than the Politislop of the previous thread. So here goes. Going to go up through Level 14.

Goal is an Obedience Champion Grappler who gets around one of the biggest weaknesses of the class by forcing enemies to engage with them. Not the strongest build ever or anything but I'd apprecaite any advice anyone has or anything I'm missing.

Stats at start:
Str - 18
Con - 14
Cha - 12
Wis - 14
Int - 10
Dex - 10

Stats at Level 5 (And then just keep pumping Str, Con, Cha and Wis)

Str -19
Con - 16
Cha - 14
Wis - 16
Int - 10
Dex - 10

Versatile Human for Adopted Ancestry Lizardfolk

Ancestry Feats:
Iruxi Armaments (1d8 damage die for unarmed strikes)
Natural Ambition (Defensive Advance)
Terrain Advantage
Primal Rampage

Class Feats:
Iron Repercussions
Deity's Domain (Might) for Athletic Rush and a second Focus Point
Aura of Despair
Reactive Strike
Quick Shield Block
Expand Aura
Divine Wall
Divine Reflexes


FA Feats:
Wrestler Dedication
Combat Grab
Snagging Strike
Whirling Toss (convinced GM to use the premaster version)
Crushing Grab (convinced GM to remove the stupid MAP penalty from Godbreaker and this is a prereq)
Inescapable Grasp
Form Lock


Skill Feats:
Quick Jump (from Background)
Titan Wrestler (from FA)
Powerful Leap
Intimidating Prowess
Cat Fall
Rapid Mantle
Kip Up
Wall Jump
Quick Climb
(Legendary Athletics, Intimidation and Acrobatics at Master)

General Feats:
Toughness
Fleet
Incredible Initiative

Class Features:
Lay on Hands
Athletic Rush
Blessed Armament
(No other class choices to make)

>>95847552
Monk on paper is fine, but my god is the class boring as shit and having to jump through extra hoops to use the weapons that are supposed to be for them anyways is retarded
They could use some extra athletics or acrobatics feats

>>95847178 (OP)
As a cloistered cleric, is it worth getting more than one domain access or is it a waste of time and feat? 2e btw.

>>95848072
The class at base is so dull, its like okay at many things but not the best at anything. It feels so unfocused.

>>95850308
Capping out your focus pool is really nice

>>95851410
Much like Ranger, it is "mostly fine" but dull as rocks and the "correct" ways to play it are stupid as fuck

if you hero point a roll you had fortune on, do you reroll both dice?

>>95852093
Hero points ARE a fortune effect. You can't use them on a roll that already had a fortune effect.

This system is crunchy. Where's the butter?

poizo... whea's da proimal wavecasta martial...

>>95851480
The problem i see for ranger and monk is Paizo basically abandoned them during the remaster while for some fucking reason Fighter & Rogue got buffs and tweaks. Both Ranger and Monk need a stronger mechanical identity because right now Ranger is just Fighter but worse and Monk's features are mostly just passive effects that make punching not shit which is the same problem the gunslinger has (all its features are to make guns not shit).

Heres my fanfic:

Ranger
>Remove Agile Grace from Fighter so Flurry Ranger is actually better at MAP eventually. (Paizo seriously needs to get the Fighter and Rogue's dick out of its mouth).
>Scaling Survival with a free skill feat at every bump. (This makes you actually the best at survival in the game)
>Give you immunity to difficult terrain far earlier in the game as well as inbuilt climb and swim speed. (This gives you the stronger niche of being a battlefield skirmisher earlier in the game)
>Make Outwit and the Monster Hunter line stronger. (Anons had some good ideas in the previous thread)
>Make ACs a strong feature that automatically strengthen with you. Then you can replace the heightening feats with cool shit that you can do with ACs like custom abilities for each class. (More of a general improvement i want for the game but it still affects Rangers)

>>95853359

Monk
>The Monk should have 2 subclasses similar to cleric with one giving you legendary unarmed attacks and the other giving you legendary AC which we have now. (Its thematically retarded that fighter can get legendary unarmed and the Monk cant.)
>Monk features should make you excel at unarmed attacks not just make you on par with weapons. (Monk features past FoB are quite boring with alot of budget being spent just to make you as good as the guy with a sword spending no class budget)
>Powerful Fist should give your unarmed attacks Parry and this should become +2 if you enter a stance that already has Parry. (The shield meta is gay)
>Mystic Strikes is fucking pointless because magic weapons are mandatory. Replace it with a feature that actually does something or make this the feature that gives you Crit Spec. (Probably the most glaring "we think this is 1e" design ive seen in the game)
>Metal Strikes should also reduce your MAP on FoB. (Paizo should of done this instead of nerfing FoB for multiclassing. Lazy design)
>Roll the Diamond Fists feat into Adamantium Strikes (This just gives you unarmed attacks a nice bump in strength for the endgame)
>You start the game with a 1st level Stance feat. You can enter this stance at the start of combat for free (Even if you ignore all my other changes, this should have been a fix in the remaster if Paizo actually gave a shit about monk. No excuse for this when the Barb gets to rage for free)

Gunslinger
>lol, lmao!
>The entire class budget is built around making guns not suck and it fails. To save this class you would need to completely redesign guns and this class with it. Also bring back Grit.

2e
If you are starting a 11-20 AP after doing your own 1-10 or a 1-10 AP. Since the 11-20 APs usually come with backgrounds with unique abilities, do you just ignore those backgrounds that are offered or can you do something with them? Asking because my group is going to be starting Curtain Call after completing Gatewalkers and am curious about that.

>>95853359
honestly I've kind of come around on animal companions. they're pretty good, they tend to eat up or grant a lot of actions over the course of a fight. they're not additional PCs like in 1e but they're a lot less useless dogshit than I thought
the issue is the imbalances between them and the whole "if you ever pick the strength lines you are a fucking retard and deserve to have your pet killed" deal you're given. strength advancements should give a ton more hp to make up for the even lower AC
the other thing is fuck me dude, a whole week to replace a dead one when their main purpose is to be an always-on caster summon? just make it so if it hits 0hp in an encounter it's completely out of the fight and can't be picked back up period until the fight is over, barring very obvious narrative "the monster kills the pet/the pet is unconscious in a raging inferno/the pet fell into a 1000' hole" situations, in which case you have 2 rounds to evacuate it before it dies for real

>>95853686
I think they are fine too. I just hate when a class gets it as a feature but still has to pay the advancement tax instead of being able to spend feats to have them do cool shit like a druid being able to use its AC as a touch spell drone too. I think classes who get it within its chassis should get the advancements for free as part of the feature while anyone else needs to dump feats into the Beastmaster archetype.

>>95853761
while I do agree with the sentiment that chassis stuff should have automatic advancement, animal companions are entirely optional and just a level 1 feat
I will say that automatic survival scaling and the terrain mastery stuff (especially built-in climb and swim speeds) is sick as hell for ranger. but in general I don't think animal companions are really all that bad, barring strength ones' survivability due to tanked AC. which I'm pretty sure you could just straight up double their HP and be fucking fine. and then give all animal companions some additional layer of death protection because a week of downtime is actually just not available in most games
ranger's pretty fine in combat, I think one of my favorite characters I ever played was a kukri/tekko-kagi flurry ranger focused on maneuver lockdown with agile weapons, poaching combat grab and AoO from a fighter dedication. it could use a little bit of a bump, sure. and outwit in particular needs help. I'm not exactly sure how to do that, though. but making is the terrainmaster with built in survival scaling is basically perfect in my opinion, if not really combat associated. I'd also do something like "consider your wisdom modifier to survival as +2 if it is lower"
that said ignoring difficult terrain is pretty huge (when there is difficult terrain), and climb speeds can get you some sick advantages. I feel like something you could give them to help them in combat would just be one single free action at the start of initiative. "always ready" or something. draw a weapon, fire a shot, move into position, hide, whatever. hunt prey obviously. starting strong in a fight is usually a really powerful feature. for a bonus "this free action counts as your turn for the purposes of surprise" considering surprise is SO FUCKING SHIT IT'S UNREAL in pf2e

>>95853821
>I'd also do something like "consider your wisdom modifier to survival as +2 if it is lower"
When would this ever be useful when you die instantly to a critfailed will save as soon as you dump wis?

>>95853821
Oh shit i completely forgot about Hunt Prey! I think its fine to have Hunted Prey as an action but the constant need to spend it during combat is a ballache. Here is my additional fanfic
>You should be able to switch your Hunted Prey once they are defeated in your presence to another creature you can see as a free action.

>just rebuild these entire classes
>just rewrite all the APs
>just redesign all the characters
>just ship of theseus out the entire system in an attempt to unfuck its central systemic issues
getting real tired of pf2e, boss

Further monk fanfic
>Reflexive Stance as class feature from level 1 (because Barbarian, level 12 wtf Paizo)
>Master of Many Styles at level 9 and Fuse Stance at level 15 as class features (Fighter-lite flexibility)

>>95853686
The stat advancements on them sucks ass, there's no itemization to fix them (barding exists but it's detrimental to the best companions, dex companions), they cost too many feats, they take too long to replace, and they functionally become dead weight at level 10+ even by paizo dick sucker standards. It's kind of incredible.

>>95854502
Let's not pretend PF1e was any better about this. I love it too pieces but it required far more fucking around and fixing, EITR was ubiquitous for a reason

What’s are some good builds for wanting to play a tank character?

>>95855224
By tank do you mean "keep the party alive" or "be very good at surviving"?
Redemption champion is the best at making the party invincible
Ruffian rogue with exemplar(barrows edge, scar of the survivor) and champion(desecration) dedications is the best at not dying

2e, Why did they have to make the best domain Naga.

>>95855224
Pretty much just champion until guardian comes out.

>>95855221
>Let's not pretend PF1e was any better about this.
True, but nobody pretended that this was a major selling point of 1e. On the other hand, ever since 2e first released, the shill campaign was all about how easy it is to run, and how little effort it was to make the game "just work".

>>95855281
The shills pretending you didn't need to change anything about 2e were always fucking stupid, and the "JusT pLaY iT beFoRe YOu hOMeBreW" crowd assumes anyone who has a problem with RAW is a drooling lobotomite who can't understand how two lego bricks click together. The way people suck off free archetype alone is proof a chunk of the community thinks something is fucked.

At its core PF2e is undeniably easier to run and does "work", because it's just set up with a way easier structure to avoid runaway bullshit like needing 10x monster hp+immunities to avoid a boss being killed five times over over in the surprise round, or wondering how the fuck to stat anything because two party members somehow have a 17 point difference in AC/attack rolls. An easier to work with core system with a good ride is nice, but if the radio doesn't work and the wheels don't hold air for shit, I'm going to replace them, you know?

>>95855397
Ye.
If the flaws in the game were systemic then no amount of archimedes screw spinning would achieve anything.
The guts are remarkably good.
The problem is pozzo being timid and lazy with the dressing.

Okay, anons, I think I hate casters in pf2.
Im playing a ranged firearm warpriest cleric right now (it made sense to go firearms cause Alkenstar) and I feel like a fucking healbot for marshals.
I have 1 buff that doesnt scale at all (bless). I miss most of my attacks (at most my chance to hit is like 50% on +18 with bless, level 8 btw). I had exactly two times when someone failed a save against my spell and I got to do cool shit.
Meanwhile my marshals get critted in the face for more than half their HP and can outright get knocked down in the 2nd round of combat forcing me to spend 2 actions to get them up because i know that they are more useful than me. And then its just a cycle of "marshal gets fucked in the face - i heal" every fucking round.
I tried to get some damage with ranger archetype (gravity weapon) and i took a magazine weapon to not need to reload as much but there is still a problem of most of my attacks missing even tho i use only 1 attack per round at most.
How the fuck do i make this shitty class fun without going melee? I feel like in 1sr edition it was effortless to make casters fun.
Feels like someone at paizo had a raging hate boner for casters when developing the system.

>>95855483
>striking as warpriest
Go wrestling or go broke
>marshal
Speech-to-text spotted

>>95855483
>picked a caster, expected to ever be allowed to strike
oh no no
>using firearms EVER
OH NO NO
Anon you got baited into playing the absolute worst possible character you could ever make in pf2e

>>95855439
This.
I think the engine is amazing and the 3 action system is innovative but fuck me does it feel like the designers stumbled across it in an ancient tome instead of designing it themselves.

The biggest thing holding the system back is Paizo's ways of working and several of the core designer's shitty biases. I myself have homebrewed the game to be in a much healthier state for my table. Spellcasters have far better math and scaling. Ancestries actually add deep customization to your character and actually act like a second class (I dont use FA for this reason) and 90% of skill feats aren't complete dogshit.

>>95855491
>Speech-to-text spotted
Fuck, im just retarded and my mind is broken. After a slugfest of a session.

>>95855483
>Cleric Gunslinger
Its a cool concept but mother of god did you pick the worst build concept in 2e ever lmao!

>>95855483
>without going melee
That doesn't make it feel good either

3 action system is better than most alternatives but tbdesu it should be 4 actions, with unused actions becoming reactions at the end of the turn

>>95855439
I think the guts are definitely still insanely flawed even if it's overall an improvement. Feat tiering is too aggressive, class feats are too often traps of "your choice between core class function or abysmal dogshit with fancy flavor text", ability mods and proficiency scaling are kind of sloppy, and more shit I can't fit

>>95855483
>Warpriest and didn't expect to be the dedicated healer/offtank
>using a ranged weapon, which are notorious for feeling like plinking low damage shit even on a martial
>using a FIREARM, notorious for needing a dedicated class to reach the lofty status of "almost playable"
I'm sorry anon, but I think you wanted to play Warhammer, not Pathfinder, even if gun priest is sick as hell visual

>>95855551
Whoa whoa whoa, are you expecting players to keep up with that kind of bookkeeping?
Gatekeeping in action, gentlefolx.

>>95855502
Okay but how firearms that dont need to be reloaded are worse than a bow? I have 6 rounds in a magazine and d10 for damage and most encounters dont go past round 7. And i attack once a round at most.
Also, what the fuck are you supposed to do as a cleric then? Even cloistered cleric's class dc sucks dick. And mine is 2 worse at 24. I cant cast anything offensive without enemies critting on their saves.

>>95855564
>Also, what the fuck are you supposed to do as a cleric then?
First, you pick a god with Haste.
Then, you cast Heroism, Haste, Slow, and Fear.
Welcome to 2e spellcasting.

>>95855573
*God with haste or slow
*Cast heroism, haste/slow(as appropriate), and fear
overall point is the same

>>95855558
Feats are dressing.
The core that Just Works tm is anything involving dice and most of that is in GM Core; it's the tables for monster DCs, hit points, xp budgets, and the level based and simple DC tables.
Whoever wrote those is a pro.

>>95855558
>I'm sorry anon, but I think you wanted to play Warhammer, not Pathfinder, even if gun priest is sick as hell visual
Well, like I said, we're playing in Alkenstar. It felt stupid not to do firearms. I do realize now that I fucked myself.
>>95855573
>Then, you cast Heroism, Haste, Slow, and Fear.
How is this shit fun? Why are caster so cucked in 2nd ed?

>>95855522
>and 90% of skill feats aren't complete dogshit
Christ this entire conversation had me forget about skill feats entirely. It's telling that my GM ruled that every time you become trained in a skill you get a free level 1 skill feat for that skill, and everyone in the group still agrees they feel shitty to pick and half the time a given skill just doesn't have anything remotely useful attached to it

>>95855602
>How is this shit fun? Why are caster so cucked in 2nd ed?
Revenge for being OP in previous iterations of pathfinder and D&D. It got "Slightly" better after the remaster but you could absolutely feel the seething contempt for spellcasting the designers had emanating from the pages of the original core.

>>95855602
>How is this shit fun?
Lol. Lmao.
>Why are casters so cucked?
Because 2e was designed out of pure spite over caster domination in 1e and D&D 5e.
See, martials are supposed to be the best at fighting things, duh. Except they decided to make the game into a tactical skirmish game instead of an RPG, so now you have an entire subcategory of classes that exist to be cheerleaders for the protagonists.

>>95855483
>gun
Guns are only really useful for Gunslingers, Fighters, and the occasional niche build like Air Repeater Thaumaturge. It's an awful pick on Cleric. Even if you wanted to use weapons most of Cleric's feats that use weapons care about using melee specifically or your god's favored weapon, and your gun is neither.
>bless doesn't scale
Why would it scale? A +1 is good the whole game, and it will only ever use a level 1 spell slot.
>using saving throw spells as a warpriest
A couple things here. You probably shouldn't be using saving throw spells on a warpriest in the first place since they're worse at casting than cloistered, but from the sounds of it this has been an issue since before they get worse at it. If you're using a spell that doesn't have an effect when an enemy succeeds, that's on you. If you aren't targeting their worst save, that's on you.
>going ranger for gravity weapon
Lol. You aren't a martial, stop trying to act like one.

All of that aside, it also sounds like your DM is probably running harder encounters if your martials are always getting 2 shot and your spells never ever work. If that's the case, it makes it even harder for you to play your class wrong like you are. Are you at least using a god that gives Sure Strike to crit fish with the gun?

>>95855602
>Why are caster so cucked in 2nd ed?
Because a dev got mad about casters in PFS "ruining" their sessions and screamed at people, and so 2e balances around assuming that caster players are giga autist optimizers trying to squeeze every ounce of juice from the system even though the average player is probably just shotgunning out choices to whatever sounds cool so they can fuck around with their friends.

It helps when your GM isn't throwing exclusively PL+1-4 creatures at you, too. A mistake that APs seem to fucking love doing.

>>95855602
>How is this shit fun? Why are caster so cucked in 2nd ed?
It's not just casters. There are about 5 classes that are genuinely worth playing (Fighter, Rogue, Barbarian, Cleric*, Bard*) and everything else is an afterthought.
*Exclusively as healbots and buffbots.

>>95855619
Skill feats are an excellent idea but again Paizo were extremely sloppy with it. Of course all the physical based skills got cool and interesting feats because we cant have the martials feel bad. Seriously it felt like 2e was designed by a bunch of salty Fighter mains.

>>95855628
>>95855632
Yeah, I kinda felt it but hoped that im just missing something since its my first major campaign in 2nd ed. Oh and people i play with kept telling me that casters are completely fine, fair and balanced. I guess, they never told me casters are fun lmao.
Honestly, fuck paizo. They should have done with all martials in 2nd ed what they did with fighter in 1st: just buff them and give more shit to do but leave casters as they are. Fucking retards.
I think i will never play cleric in 2nd edition after this. It makes more sense to take a martial and get some healing via archetypes.

>>95855666
You missed champ, witch, and animist.
The classes that aren't worth playing are wizard, magus, psychic, summoner, ranger, monk, swashbuckler, druid, inventor, gunslinger, alchemist, investigator, exemplar, oracle, sorcerer, and thaumaturge.

>>95855703
>listing Champ as good but not Thaumaturge
In many ways I agree with this take, but in many others I think it's stupid as fuck. I guess that just goes to show how baffling Thaumaturge is as a class

>>95855720
I was being deliberately silly.

>>95855703
>champ
You fell for the meme if you're taking this as main class. It's an archetype.
>Witch
Sure, resentment(only) can fall into the buffbot pile
>Animist
Didn't really look into them much but I doubt it since they aren't occult and don't have a cheerleader feature like divine font to cover for it

>>95855685
>Oh and people i play with kept telling me that casters are completely fine, fair and balanced.
Did any of these people choose to play casters?
>I think i will never play cleric in 2nd edition after this.
Cleric is probably an S tier caster but you tried to gish with guns which are fucking dogshit. Switch to a melee weapon, grab a shield and play off-tank with buffs to yourself and heals to your allies. You will have a much better time. Casting can be fun but you literally have to be a heal and support slut until like level 7 and then you get some actual god spells while your spellcasting mod isnt as shit anymore.

>>95855652
>If you're using a spell that doesn't have an effect when an enemy succeeds, that's on you. If you aren't targeting their worst save, that's on you.
That seems like a system issue honestly.
The system expects you to know the worst save of the enemy every time which is metagamey as fuck and my party doesnt like recalling, which is what I assume you should do if you want to know that via game mechanics.
But that doesnt change the fact that enemies have pretty high chances of critting on saves even if its their worst save, which just leaves you a spell slot short and having wasted 2 actions.
>Are you at least using a god that gives Sure Strike to crit fish with the gun?
Lol, lmao even. All my true strike uses are like 1 and 2 or 1 and 7. I never hit an attack with it. True strike is complete shit, especially after adding the cooldown: "oh, no! We cant allow casters to have fun usung their limited resource!".

>>95855731
animist is very good because of specifically Liturgist, whenever you step you sustain either any of the focus spells in the class or any of the spontaneous slot spells that are sustained. and there are many ways to nickle-and-dime for free step actions. you also get the free sustain on any leap or tumble, but step is easier to abuse.

>>95855731
Animists poach spells from other traditions to cast with their spontaneous slots, it all depends on the spirits you attune to but you can get shit like fireball, protector tree and invisibility that are auto-signature and a first level feat lets you have heal and harm castable with those slots also auto-signature so while you don't have the breadth of the cleric divine spot, you can always have a strong heal on hand. And their focus spells are really good and let you frontline at basically martial to-hit or have reach-grapple. Good feats to defend themselves and allies with too, animist is really strong.

>>95855791
Oh shit i forgot they added a cooldown to sure strike! Lmao! Fuck me the Paizo design team are fucking clowns. Instead of dealing with the very obvious issue of spell attacks being awful with the only way to make them work is using a single spell. They decided to nerf the spell.

>>95855779
>Did any of these people choose to play casters?
Nope, lmao. Every party i saw had mostly martials and noone wanted to play at least cleric for heals. I was forced to do that but i didnt think it would be so offensively dogshit.
>Switch to a melee
But how does that solve the to hit issue? Just get flanking and pray?
I tried it in a small module before, it mostly felt the same but i could take a bit more beating and facetanked for the party a lot.

>>95855731
I'll piss and moan all day that Champion doesn't get enough unpoachable stuff, but I still think calling them a bad base class is absolutely mental. By the time the archetype gets everything a level 1 champion gets, the champion should be rocking out with so many improvements it's not a fair comparison.

>>95855791
I'll admit the cooldown for Sure Strike is awful. My group just still uses the old version. Statistically speaking it maths out to being roughly a +5 buff. That's not shit. Recall knowledge is absolutely a core game action that your group should be using though. You should be hitting the Wis ones as a Cleric and somebody else should be getting the Int ones. Or have someone built to get them all like a Thaum.

>>95855820
Love my spell attacks. Oneshot a PL+1 enemy a couple of sessions ago with a moonlight ray.
>>95855828
>But how does that solve the to hit issue? Just get flanking and pray?
The big trick for being useful as a melee cleric is athletics. Take the might domain, hit athletic rush then run in and trip/grapple things. Trip especially if you have reactive striking martials in the group. This does solve your to-hit issue because your athletics prof can go expert at 3, master at 7 and legendary at 15 which is miles ahead of your weapon proficiency.

>>95855829
>By the time the archetype gets everything a level 1 champion gets, the champion should be rocking out
Rocking out what exactly? Expand aura? +1 hardness to your shield? That's fuck all.

>>95855874
Expand aura on a trident-using justice champ with shields of the spirit goes pretty crazy. Any violence within 30ft of you triggers resistance for the ally and a trident to the face for the foe, all your allies get an AC buff and you're in full plate with a shield up; if anything wants to avoid the trident to the face and swing at you instead, they can bring it. Pick up a blessed one dedication if you can't stand the thought of not having lay on hands. Weapon spirit lets you take returning on your weapon without taking up a rune slot you could be using for damage.

>>95855874
The level 1 reaction feat (which should admittedly just be built into the cause for main class champions, tbf) and/or Defensive Advance, Additional focus points, Security+Greater Security if you went with that focus spell, Smite, second blessing, Quick Shield Block because you're not spending your 8th level feat on poaching something from another class. If you're in a free archetype then guess what, now Champion's archetype slots are free to take whatever the fuck you want, like Marshal, Exemplar, Bard, or whatever the fuck else.

This isn't even saying that Fighter with Champ archetype isn't really fucking strong, I just legitimately do not think it makes main class Champion nearly as pointless as the memes claim.

>>95855731
hate to break it to you, but champion is legitimately good now, as a result of the change to reckoning and the inclusion of the security featline

>>95855913
>Weapon spirit lets you take returning on your weapon without taking up a rune slot you could be using for damage.
>>95855942
>Champion is legitimately good now
Huh, fair enough. I concede on this one then, I still think in terms of overall usefulness a Fighter or Rogue with champ archetype is probably better (but then again that's a really poor comparison because those two are just so disgustingly overloaded) but sure, champ definitely seems playable judging from this stuff

>>95855935
the exalted reaction feature which upgrades your reaction is pretty good on liberation, grandeur, and redemption(justice got fucked over here)

>>95855942
I both love and hate the reckoning and security featlines. Love them because they're really strong, but hate them because they eat SO MANY FUCKING FEATS and are probably the best thing the class has, so if you aren't a shieldmaxxer you're just fucked.

>>95855970
They really need to introduce alternate exalted features or something so they can bandaid Justice already, because there's no way I'm spending a 14th level feat to turn that -5 into a -2, when the problem is that it eats the reaction my allies would rather be spending on their own MAP-less attacks.

>>95855913
>you grant the armament a property rune of your choice
not
>you grant the armament a the effects of property rune of your choice

>>95855913
>you grant the armament a property rune of your choice
not
>you grant the armament the effects of a property rune of your choice
so it still takes a rune slot

>>95856056
>Page 89 (Clarification): The rune granted by a champion’s blessed armament doesn’t count toward the weapon’s number of property runes. Unlike many similar abilities, it can be used even if the weapon already has its maximum number of property runes.
Already acknowledged by paizo as a mistake in the transition from CRB to Core 2

>>95855522
>the 3 action system is innovative
I don't see why it gets wanked so much. Even besides the problem of weighing actions of vastly different power equally, in practice it feels suffocating and a lot of it like they're action taxes. You get bogged down by minor crap so easily and can't get to do what you want. And then conditions that should limit what you can do instead just make it even less fun to play. Meanwhile ways of getting extra actions, like Quickened, are restricted as hell.

And besides, it's modeled like vidya.

>>95856165
A proper AP system >>> PF2 3 action economy >>>>>>>>> fixed action types

>>95856174
>fixed action types
Those can be good when you avoid the common pitfalls

>>95855592
The math is awful both narratively and mechanically i.e. you become untouchable to things that were huge threats recently; the numbers on the items are so bad they rapidly become unusable

>>95855828
>Nope, lmao.
Many such cases.
>But how does that solve the to hit issue?
Flank and Bless are the go to combo at early levels. Cleric also got some pretty nifty warpriest feats in the remaster. Your job isnt to do damage, its to be a healer/support and secondary tank who bonks once per round.
>>95855871
>Love my spell attacks.
They do feel fantastic when they hit but the math just gets worse and worse.
>The big trick for being useful as a melee cleric is athletics.
Good advice.

>cloistered cleric grappler build
Good or bad?

>>95856390
You're going to want to still pump your strength so it's doable, you just need to get medium armor or your AC is fucked so if you're starting the character at level 1 that means going human and taking the general feat twice or going the nagaji heritage with natural armor or something.

If you're starting later, it's much more open.

>>95856165
It definitely gets overwanked, but most of my thinking that is because the way it's been utilized just kinda blows. It still feels less shitty than 1e can tend to feel, but it's another victim of Paizo's obsessive fear of letting you do too much.
>modeled like a vidya
God I fucking wish shit was actually as modeled like a vidya as some posters act, it might actually get patched to fucking feel good

>>95856413
Nagaji wouldn't work (unless they very recently errata'd them to work like the post-remaster natural armour feats) since it's medium armour rather than unarmoured. Dragonblood and Automaton would work though.

>>95856165
>>95856418
That's why i said it feels like the designers didn't make it themselves and stumbled across it. The 3 action system feels great for a martial but spellcasters were basically told to fuck off.

>>95856487
>feels great for a martial but spellcasters were basically told to fuck off
this is why 4 actions (interchangeable with reactions) is the way to go.

>>95856487
Fair enough, but I still think it means the core of the system is rotten.

>>95856319
Level 1 character getting bullied by level 3 giant scorpion -> level 5 character fighting a group of giant scorpions and butchering them is one of the better parts of the system.

Static DCs on items miraculously work in PWL so the only thing missing is adding level to the DC.

>>95856493
But not the way DC20 wants to do it

>>95856532
Haven't looked into DC20 so I couldn't say. How does it work there?

>>95855551
Isn't that just DC20?

2e, most spells should have been either variable action cost, or 1 action. instead of 2 actions being the default for casting. they made multiple variable action spells at the start of 2e then just fucking gave up

>>95850308
Need more advice.

>>95856535
It's even more piecemeal than PF2e. So you can spend an action on an attack, then another action to do what Lunge does in PF2e, and another action to add +1 damage to the attack. So that's 3 out of your 4 actions gone on one, unimpressive attack.

>>95856840
But then casters might get to do things. So no

>>95856901
I would say its a waste.

>>95857039
Sounds like it's closer to a super shitty version of an AP system haphazardly shoehorned into a D&Dlike than it is to PF2's action system.

>>95857372
It's 5e with rules from other systems thrown in without much thought

>>95857494
So, like every single 5e group ever.

>>95857532
But the creator has a bland youtube channel so this iteration must be special!

Modern audience

>>95857951
Muscle Wizard is an old, old tabletop meme bro, you're not gonna find anyone here seething about it like you are.

>>95856840
I'm always someone that does believe you could make a lot of cantrips 1-2 actions (and maybe add a once-per-round limit to cantrips just in case EA spam would be too much), but I also believe most spells are perfectly fine as just 2 actions. I ask myself a lot what most casters would even do with 3 actions on hand every turn, given how most 5e casters barely do anything with such freedom. I'm strongly against Paizo's answer as to why they don't make more Variable Action Spells ("It would be too overwhelming for most players!"), but I'm not going to pretend most people would be uber-optimal long distance skirmishers if they had such. And this is even ignoring what most spells would even do with different action costs...

I think of something like the newish Kgalaserke's Axes spell, how the one-action form is INFINITELY more useful than the 2-action one. And even if the 1 action form was part of the 2 action one, it still wouldn't be worth the action cost compared to the mini-Heroism buff.
https://2e.aonprd.com/Spells.aspx?ID=2308

Casters are inherently inflexible. Much of the freeform decision making comes from the planning and purchasing phases, not mid-combat. So I find myself blaming Paizo less and less on not catering to the idea they should make more spells most people wouldn't take full advantage of. Seriously, raise your hand if you ever used the 2 Round variation of Horizon Thunder Sphere, Inner Radiance Torrent, or Elemental Annihilation Wave? Hard Mode: more than once.

>>95849560
Responding to this because the russian schizo is back and talking about a build is at least somewhat more interesting than political shitflinging.

>>95849560
Ah, I see, you're one of the Selfish causes, I guess that means taking Quick Shield Block kind of boils down to "will your GM let you get two different reactions triggering off of one attack" so you can force the choice AND block the damage. I would err on saying that you should be allowed to, since afaik obedience reaction triggers on attack, while shield block triggers on damage, which makes it a pretty good idea since your game plan is about FORCING enemies to attack you anyway.

>>95858182
I think it would have largely been a waste designing that kind of spell flexibility for a vancian casting system. Since the weaker versions of the spells expend the same amount of your daily resources, you're leveraging that a lot more than your action economy.

>>95858425
at the very least, it probably should have been used more for cantrips and focus spells, "spammability" be damned-Kineticist has its shitty little blasts, and those are widely regarded as quickly becoming the weakest part of it anyway, which is why you get one for free for activating your element stance.

>>95858425
If you aren't doing just infinite spells, you probably need an MP System to compensate. And that brings it own level of baggage and idiosyncracies, heavily penalizing high-level spells in design. I can agree that the awkwardness of Vancian Casting goes in the face of Variable Spells, as action cost is not an equivalent resource to spell slots, but I also think it is fine enough a system to handle such. If I had to balance out the mechanic, I would probably have some kind of long-term buff/debuff be applied even on crit fails on higher-action cost spells while keeping the damage/utility aspects equal on all casting times. But even then, it wouldn't be for all spells just because how tight a design space that ends up being (would at least make Slow a way more balanced spell...).

God, now y'all got me doing Big PF2e Redesigns. And I thought that conversation earlier was cringe...

>>95856840
This would be my pick for the best QoL improvement versus how easy it is to implement. They print new spells all the time. Start taking inspiration from ones like Heal or Kinetic Ram or even weirdo ones like Inner Radiance Torrent. And print some more one-action cantrips while you're at it, so casters have something better to do with their third action than just cast Shield. They wouldn't have to change anything about the system, just start including some more creative spells in the new splat books. They fully leveraged the three-action system for martials with a mix of one-, two-, three-, or even variable-action martial abilities (love you, One-Inch Punch) but they've left the spellcasting half of things almost entirely unexplored. Huge design space they could be playing around in.

>>95858182
>Seriously, raise your hand if you ever used the 2 Round variation of Horizon Thunder Sphere, Inner Radiance Torrent, or Elemental Annihilation Wave?
It would help if the 2 round version of those spells were actually worth the investment. if it for instance increased the damage by a reasonable amount then yes i probably would.

>>95849560
Only problem with the build I see is that Adopted Ancestry wouldn't allow you to pick Iruxi Armaments. You'd either need to switch to Lizardfolk adopted by humans or grab a graft.

>Witch in party casts fear on enemy and the monster crit fails
>Witch is elated they got to do something finally
>Party proceeds to wipe that enemy first before the others without even letting the fleeing enemy get a turn first
>Witch not as happy
Is it just low levels or does this class suck. My champion is doing a shitload more.

>>95858675
>The best course of events happens
>Witch is unhappy
Is your witch retarded?

>>95858740
I think he was just mad that the party went after the enemy he had controlled instead of the boss coming at them.

>>95858675
Fear is a really good debuff as is, a crit fail is -3 to all the target's defenses. Fleeing is actually more inconvenient than not since it massively repositions the enemy away from everyone. Plus it is only 1 Round so it doesn't even work on a flavor/mercy dealing, they'll just come back. Your Witch did a REALLY good job, them not being happy is just missing the point entirely.

Also no, Witch doesn't suck. Outside that Fear is a spell any caster can use, it has plenty of good stuff in them compared to other casters like Wizard or Psychic.

>>95858605
That is true, but it is more to say what are you even supposed to give to that level of investment? IRT already doubles the amount of damage for one spell slot and it still felt the need to give a ribbon effect.

>>95858595
It's easy to say they can fill in that space, but with WHAT is the question? Most martial metastrikes and variable action maneuvers mostly amount to doing 2 things for reduced price, which is what most spells already do by nature. If doubling damage, range, or adding miss effects isn't enough to justify multiple actions/turns being spent, then you do realize that the space is smaller than you would expect...

>>95858630
Oh. My GM is allowing me to pick it with the caveat that the damage be Bludgeoning. Since I'm sinking an entire Ancestry Feat just to make unarmed attacks not shit.

>>95856338
>>95855871
Thanks for the advice, anons.
If i ever get forced to play cleric, i'll go melee with athletics.
The thing that bugs me a bit is you're kinda forced to choose a god from a handful of useful ones. Dunno, 1st edition, while it had its problems, felt a lot more free.
Anyway, right now it seems like rerolling into gunslinger with medicine and possibly cleric archetype for clutch heals and buffs is the way to go since its still okay lorewise for the character and our campaign and makes me much more useful. Cucked casters still make sad though.

>>95858782
>but with WHAT is the question?

I think this is an easier question to answer than you're making it. The answer is anything. You've already listed some great numbers to tweak based on casting time (damage, range, miss effects). Add to that additional targets, or AoE templates, or rider effects, or any number of other rules elements. Get crazy with it. A spell that you can spend an extra action casting to remove the manipulate trait? I love it. Or a damage spell where an extra action lets you pick the elemental damage type? That's great! What about a spell that you could cast at one action with the incapacitate trait or three actions without? It's an action-efficient chaff killer in its one-action variant and boss battle friendly in its three-action variant. There's so much you could do with the spell list if you just let yourself have a little fun with it. One of the benefits of such a crunchy system is that there are so many levers to pull here. I just wish Paizo would be less shy about pulling them.

>>95858593
>you probably need an MP System to compensate
PF2e has already had several hits that use neither that nor vancian: cantrips, focus spells, witch's hexes, psychic amps, oracle cursebound feats, kineticist impulses, exemplar ikons. There's plenty of design space.

>>95858783
I was going to sya that grafts are better than what Iruxi gives, but
>the damage be Bludgeoning
pushes Iruxi armaments ahead in a lot of situations. Unless you are a lizardfolk, which is an odd ruling.

>>95859036
None of the other class resource systems would handle a spell system other than Kineticists and that required a half a book dedicated just for them, forget any other spell caster. And most impulses are 2 action + 1 action reload anyway, so it just circles back to the heart of the issues: resource vs. action economy debates.

Keep in mind, Spontaneous Casting already hurts most Vancian discussions by streamlining most of the guesswork that comes from picking spells, and PF2e makes it even easier with Signature Spells. So it really comes down to people not liking a long-term resource tracker than "Vancian Casting".

>>95858910
Fair enough points! But I still would argue most spells are as balanced as you can reasonably make them in a 3 Action system, in regards to action economy. Anything more would probably lead to more degenerate turrenting strats that people go "UGH ITS SO BORING BEING UBER OPTIMAL" (look at how little people genuinely like Electric Arc or Slow as spells in their own right over being too good compared to most spells) or just weird economy issues in general.

>>95853359
Ranger has actual utility outside of combat, they're basically 1E Slayers. They do nearly the same damage of fighter and gunslinger but easily twice as versatile. You're giving up tanking/+2 for exploring/research related abilities really-- is it worth it? I think for RP heavy tables, hexcrawl and experienced players it's worth it

If you don't Hunt Prey outside of combat like crazy, you're doing ranger wrong; as it allows you to RK without even seeing an enemy

>>95848072
Monk weapons are worth it if you're always going against PL+2 elite/boss monsters
Maneuver traits on weapons are huge, because if you crit fail on a maneuver you can drop the weapon instead of falling prone/getting grabbed

Monk's peak is really as a melee controller and anti-magic tank, picking up a wizard and throwing them off cliffs is how you play optimized monks imo

>>95848539
As someone who played both 5E and 3.5E, classes generally stay within their fantasy since multi-classing isn't nearly as dumb
A Sterling Silver monk is easier to explain than the bard/paladin/warlock critter multi-class jank

Don't allow Free Archetype variant rule if you want less weird builds imo

>>95855632
Works at my table. Maybe you're bad at playing a caster?

>>95855602
>How is this shit fun? Why are caster so cucked in 2nd ed?

Notice those are all ngtmi low level spells

Casters are generally harder to play and you need some system master to get the most out of them; you have to actually read your spells along with all the traits. If you don't understand the degree math or how incapacitate works you won't make it
The secret to playing a good blaster though is getting a good focus spell if you want sustained damage

>>95859522
I accept your concession.

>>95853426
>No excuse for this when the Barb gets to rage for free

Rage has massive drawbacks: no concentration means no seeking, pointing out, speaking or even readying an action

>>95859696
Seeking is explicitly allowed while raging.

>>95859707
I stand corrected

But still, no concentration allowed is a big downside. Specifically if you start a lot of encounters as social parlays and will you end up paying an action to activate rage if things go hot

>>95859681
cap your focus pool

>>95858182
Casters have nearly no hand econ tax and there are plenty of good one-action focus spells/cantrips. Casters are able to spend an entire turn doing stuff tax-free and augmenting their spells, with Retrieval Prisms/Belt even scrolls become tax-free

I think caster's biggest problem is range if fun weapon progression, staves are neat but having some spellshape runes or bonuses to spell attacks on weapons would have been kino

>>95855653
Yeah, APs are don't like wide encounters and go tall even though they're very common in homebrew ones. A regular enemy is suppose to be PL-1-2 and mooks -3-4

High level, a large amount of mooks are more dangerous than a single +4 while a troll could easily wipe the floor of level 1s

but I don't WANT to use a trident on a champion, I want to use a sword
swords are the coolest

coming from 5e, how are archer-chads in 2e?

>>95860510
the only good ranged damage dealers that aren't fucked by constant annoying retarded fucking RETARDED FUCKING RETARDED dogshit at every single turn
it is INSANE to me that a rifle is specifically twohanded and not just 1+
I hope paizo just fucking burns to the fucking ground

Is there a third party adventure path that's about samurai and oriental adventures?

>>95860583
>it is INSANE to me that a rifle is specifically twohanded and not just 1+
This makes no sense. Even if you want to argue your character is just built different and can fire a sniper rifle with one hand, 1+ refers to the fact you use the other hand to load and fire in the same motion. This is why it is on bows.

>>95860510
Bad.
Reduced damage per hit compared with melee, reduced accuracy compared with melee.
Getting to turret is of little benefit because of the multiple attack penalty.

>>95860602
it's moreso that you can hold a bow in one hand and have your other hand ready to do other things, unless you are making a strike with the bow, but no single other weapon can do this
that should just be a completely free property. that should be how two-handed works.
how the fuck does it make any sense at all that you can't just shoulder a greatsword or a rifle for a moment to have a hand open? why is putting your hand back on it a whole-ass action with interact? it's not even a balance thing it's just a "be a spiteful inconvenient piece of shit" thing
>>95860632
>reduced damage
true, but you can hit any target in the battlefield almost no matter where it is as long as you have line of effect
>reduced accuracy
false, unless you're building for no dexterity
>turreting, MAP
partially true. melee also likes to do two strikes and then a third thing, though

>>95860674
There's a 3 to hit loss from missing off-guard and allies providing cover.
So you have to solve off-guard and cover to match flanking melee.

>>95859228
yeah i hate daily resources when almost everything else in the game is either at will, or 10 minutely.

>>95860696
there are other means of applying flatfooted besides flanking. they aren't even that rare
it's not that difficult to position yourself such that you aren't being obstructed by the (probably 1 or 2) allies in melee with a given creature, especially if they're going for flanking

>>95860510
Eldritch Archer goes hard, one of the best damage dealing archtypes in the game. You can build an archer a lot of ways though

>>95860696
Circumstance bonuses are very easy to get, hell, you can get even get it from assist. You want stealth to get off-guard to targets as ranged being in cover-- which melee cannot get very easily at all if you have zero allies. No flanking needed

Flanking is very dangerous at high levels with reach monsters that have reactive strike

I tried using a bow on my guisarme fighter once, I couldn't hit fucking shit. And the sorcerer dedication I took also didn't do anything for me. Any time I tried to cast Acid Splash I missed and even on a hit it didn't do shit for damage.
Casters and ranged characters are just fucking bad.

So it's a fact ranged attackers are trash and melee warriors are gods?

on a less retarded note I'm starting to think dirge of doom might be a noobtrap

>>95860674
>>95860602
>Switching your grip to free a hand and then to place your hands in the grip necessary to wield the weapon are both included in the actions you spend to reload a weapon.

https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=2196&Redirected=1

>>95861047
Newbies are enthralled by fighter, mostly because they are easy to play and understand

Ranged and caster character have a learning curve but melee tends to get rolfstomped at high levels if they aren't built for tanking 150+ damage crits on the regular

>>95859202
*Shrug*

There's no one playing a Lizardfolk since the ancestry kind of sucks. I think maybe he saw that my character was like the one time anyone would touch the Lizardfolk Ancestry feats at his table and figured might as well make it fun.

But I'm not a mindreader.

>>95860983
Flanking gets worse the higher level you go, positioning, creatures get bigger, more reactive strikes and as well as everything darting across the map

Off-guard from stealth, you can always have that without depending on someone else and you can invest into it to make stealth even better

>>95861061
Kinda, the strength does come from how it synergize better with other options like Harmonize or Inspiring Martial Stance better than Courageous Anthem by its lonesome. Alone, though, it is a bit of a trap. 30ft radius is actually pretty dangerous and Fear is a commonly-immune trait. It's definitely nowhere near as a must-take as it presents itself.

>>95861136
I will also throw in that off-guard is easy enough to inflict as a status beyond just flanking. Anyone grappled is already a pincushion, no further investment required. And there's a good amount of powers that let you subvert lesser cover if it becomes THAT much an issue.
Ranged is weaker on the surface compared to 5e and how goofy that is, but I would be hard pressed to call it bad. It has a lot of room to build upon, not just "Class Power That Gives You Advantage" and "Sharpshooter".

>>95859729
I would say having to spend a shit ton of action economy switching prey throughout an encounter is a far worse or equal downside.

>>95859846
Because caster economy is so tight that any economy tax would fuck them. Being slowed or stunned actually kills caster turns. Again its Paizo designing casters to be on so hard of a razor's edge compared to martials because Schrodinger's wizard might show up and ruin the game with his functional action economy.

>>95849560
NTA. While we're asking for build advice I wanted to ask about making a not terrible Magus. I have a Starlit Span build planned out through Level 13. Currently at 6. I guess I'll follow a similar format to this post. People are just arguing about Casters vs. Martials again so I don't feel too bad. Also a Free Archetype game.

Stats as Start

Str - 10
Con - 12
Cha - 10
Wis - 12
Int - 16
Dex - 18

Stats at Level 5 (And then pump Dex, Int, Wis, Con)

Str - 10
Con - 14
Cha - 10
Wis - 14
Int - 18
Dex - 19

Draxie Sprite Ancestry (Not optimal but whatever)

Ancestry Feats:
Evanescent Wings
Energize Wings
Hero's Wings
Invisible Trickster

Class Feats:
Force Fang
Starlit Eyes (GM loves Concealment)
Expanisve Spellstrike
Runic Impression
Rapid Recharge
Overwhelming Spellstrike

Free Archetype Feats:
Psychic Dedication
Basic Psychic Spellcasting
Psi Development
Rogue Dedication
Sneak Attacker
Evasiveness

Skill Feats:
Cat Fall (from Background)
Streetwise (from FA)
Steady Balance
Magical Shorthand
Rolling Landing
Kip Up
Aerobatics Mastery
Foil Senses

(Acrobatics, Arcana and Stealth all at Master)

General Feats
Fleet
Incredible Initiative
Toughness

Nothing really to put for class features except that I took Imaginary Weapon so I guess I'd ask what some reqs for Property Runes/Spellhearts/Good Magus friendly spells that aren't the obvious ones are.

Are there any good Tian Xia adventures/PFS scenarios?

>>95855281
1e also had loads of 3pp stuff devoted to trying to fix Paizo's stupid decisions (with varying degrees of success). As well as far less retards who treated Paizo's stupid ideas as some sort of unquestionable divine scripture that cannot be altered under any circumstances..

>>95861759
>retards who treated Paizo's stupid ideas as some sort of unquestionable divine scripture that cannot be altered under any circumstances
That's what you get when you pander to certain audiences who have toxic positivity as one of their most common traits.

>>95861590
Season of Ghosts. Seems to be held in very high regard by the overall community too. Never played it myself, though.

>>95856528
I'm still amazed that the level 20 wizard can't actually operate in one of those floor-to-ceiling fantasy mega-libraries with the big ladders because climbing ladders is dangerous to do untrained, and requires both hands.

>>95859522
>the fighterfag is back to passive aggressively dismiss anyone who insults his heckin wholesome system

>>95859522
What works at your table? Be specific.

Oneshot adventures are just an excuse to playtest weird mechanics or new house rules
Once you realise this you'll grow to love oneshots over the usual campaign formats

>>95861873
Climbing ladders uses the untrained DC of 10.

>>95861236
The meta is that melee offense starts out strong but by the time you hit mid and high level when tanks are really required, every other creature is going to grapple on hit, loads of reactive strikes and everything they do is filled with rider effects

All front liners have to invest class feats & items into defense even if you have a tank while blasters and archer turrets can go full offense while keeping their defense mostly control magic in spell repertoire or stealth related skill feats

>>95862087
If someone believes fighters are op damage dealers, you're probably stuck in newbie meta having shitty random encounters thrown at you which is fine, everyone has to start somewhere

Fighters at experienced tables tend fall into the tanking role over damage dealing, being viewed more as an offense tank than a damage dealer

>>95858605
I actually did rule that HRT hit the main target with both effects (single damage and the AoE) if the caster spent two turns on it; I was never clear on why it didn't just do that in the first place.

>>95862602
If you are a level 20 wizard with between -1 and +1 strength, untrained athletics, and without the untrained improvisation feat, you will fail to climb a ladder 45-55% of the time.
If a legendary athlete is helping you, you will still fail to climb the ladder 25-35% of the time.

>>95863122
If you are a level 20 wizard, why are you climbing ladders in a library in the first place? Send a familiar to do the job, Telekinetic Hand, Fly, anything.

>>95863122
Failing a check to Climb just means you don't move.
You need to critically fail to fall off the ladder.

Happens 5% of the time all the time assuming the GM is a pedant and requires you to roll to breathe and blink.
And then the martials might struggle.

>>95863144
>And then the martials might struggle.
No, the martials will get only a success (as opposed to a critical success) that 5% of the time.

>>95862882
>Fighters at experienced tables tend fall into the tanking role over damage dealing, being viewed more as an offense tank than a damage dealer
Heavily depends on the fighters build. That +2 is so ridiculously strong as well as having the best feats in the game meaning that they can just about build into any style and be superior at it. The fighter is probably the best single target CC in the game while also still pumping out good damage. People aren't calling fighter broken because it does big damage. Its broken because its too good at everything in its purview. If all the Fighter has to do is pick up 2 feats and be better at form spells than the fucking Untamed Druid then someone in the design staff needs to be fired.

>>95863139
>telekinetic hand
Sorry, the book is on a shelf 100 feet above you. It's out of range.
Climb the fucking ladder.

>>95863165
Yeah but the point is that gung ho strike strike strike stops working very abruptly.
But what that means is that if your fighter player has a senior moment and forgets that he needs to lead with trip and position intelligently he gets mulched by a moderate magma scorpion encounter while the backline watches, horrified.

Speaking of Fighter, I still think it's fucking nonsensical they start expert in EVERYTHING and only fall off at level 5. Then get legendary in EVERYTHING at level 19 for... Some reason? It doesn't even seem appropriate, it just looks arbitrary as hell.

Either just make them busted with everything at once and let their feats decide how they play, or lock them to one weapon category from level 1 (and at best let them feat into a second one, or let people have themed weapon "categories" like 1e allowed), this weird 1-4, 5-18, 19-20 proficiency rubberbanding feels moronic.

Ban fighters, all martials get access to fighter feats + reactive strike or their own class's version of it as a lv1 feature, if someone wants to play a fighter then they can play a ranger variant that gets athletics/acrobatics and society instead of nature and survival.

>>95863333
Guess Ultimate Flexibility felt too powerful to give (and they didn't have any good ideas for level 20 feats back then).
I'll give them Savage Critical as a feature instead,

For the DMs of 1e here, would you allow a powerful race in exchange for less loot gain over the course of the campaign and a weaker class chassis?

>>95863333
Keep the jack of all trades thing they have going but actually add the and master of none part. They're decent at doing more stuff than the more specialized martials but worse than all of them at their niches.

>>95862882
I thought fighters excelled at applying debuffs, from many on hit/on crit effects

>>95863462
That's ranger.
Fighter specifically becomes more trained in a particular weapon group, that's part of the character fantasy.

The other fighter gimmick is press trait actions to make 'combos' like snagging strike into combat grab.

Why did they gut druid? They were fun in 1e!

>>95863407
>DM's
oh boy
>Less loot and weaker class
Elaborate. Everytime a player wants to play a monster race with a "class nerf" there's a catch or some OP combo they want to pull off.

>>95863513
Ranger feels more like they can't decide between wanting to be John Wilderness and His Dog, The Generalist Martial, or the dedicated "I want to kill THIS ONE GUY" class, and just end up feeling half baked.

>>95863630
It's a confused class identity yes because it's very vague in fiction; see Strider.
It ends up essentially being martial of the gaps, and wandering through the scope of character themes as much as it does the setting/diegesis.

>>95863560
Defender fighter, only takes gems and coin from loot to pay servants.
The base pc has something similar to the vampire template.

>>95863385
Nah i would prefer classes have their own custom feats and reactions. Reactive Strike should be Fighter only.

>>95863687
>Defender fighter
He's getting his stuff from D20pfsrd and that page has lots of errors and sometimes blends 3pp content with core. I'll assume he's picking Aldori Defender

>Base PC has something similar to vampire template

Hopefully a dhampir because PC's usually don't get templates until higher levels where with enough effort you can get some crazy shit like Worm That Walks.

I'll assume he's trying to build a vampire that wields a dueling sword, Alucard type shit. You should audit his character sheet first.
Also if he becomes undead he has to come to the realisation that if he EVER hits 0 hitpoints he's destroyed. And YOU have to come to the realisation that undead are immune to LOTS of stuff. An Undead PC is something hard to GM for, they're immune to all mind-affecting effects, paralysis, stunning, death effects, poison, sleep, diseases nonlethal damage, ability drain, or energy drain. Immune to damage to its physical ability scores (Constitution, Dexterity, and Strength), as well as to exhaustion and fatigue effects. Immunity to any effect that requires a Fortitude save.

This is all without taking into account some bullshit that vampires can pull out.

You can allow it if you want to see where it goes but take those things mentioned before in consideration when building combat encounters and roleplaying

>>95863685
But 2e's ranger barely hits on the vague niches it has in fiction. Its barely a woods man archetype because nothing in its kit makes you better than any other class at survival with feats that should just be high level skill feats. Its Hunt mechanics barely makes you any better at killing single targets than any of the other martial classes so the Hunter archetype is lame too. Having an AC is open to every class in the game so that's not even that special. 2e ranger is a complete flavour design failure.

>>95863948
>survival
Read Hunt Prey mr nogames. Idk why you're trying to discuss the archetype.

Protip for future posts, usually when you attempt to make a claim you need to support it with evidence, or your claim can also be dismissed without evidence.

>>95863983
>Read Hunt Prey mr nogames
Oh wow a +2 bonus on a very niche usage of survival that can easily be matched by someone assisting me. Truly i am the master survivalist! Paizo dick riders like you have to be the biggest retards in the ttrpg space second to maybe 5e only players.

>>95863333
I still say that casters should start out as experts in their tradition's skill

>>95864383
honestly every class should have auto scaling in a skill or one of a selection of skills

>>95863983
>Read Hunt Prey mr nogames
I wouldn't call a +2 to tracking a single creature fulfilling the survivalist niche anon. I can get that from someone assisting me and any fighter can do what i can do with survival if he so chooses to. Something as simple as scaling survival and free skill feats could easily fix this.
>Idk why you're trying to discuss the archetype.
I was talking about fictional archetypes you ape.
>Protip for future posts, usually when you attempt to make a claim you need to support it with evidence, or your claim can also be dismissed without evidence.
The fact that you thought this smug statement held any weight after your terrible arguments is the funniest thing I've seen all week so thank you for the laugh anon.

>all niches MUST be protected!
>except fighter being the best at fighting, because that one is bullshit!

Updated the collection with ideas from the threads, give it a look?
https://scribe.pf2.tools/v/M89l6Vvf

>>95864250
>>95864429
Not him but

Monster Hunter feat line is damn good if you want to hunt max and also gives you RKs just by tracking your hunted prey. Ranger is the best mid-high level knowledge class once they get Master Monster Hunter since they can start using Nature on everything and their crit fail is very low outside of Rares and Uniques
Being able to RK outside of combat because you found a splattering of blood is just awesome

Ranger gets the most out of hexcrawl, research and chase subsystems imo but if you're at a table that meta games and never uses RK and tracking rules I think ranger loses a lot of value

>>95863507
Anyone can do that though with runes

>>95863165
If fighters didn't have that +2 you'd call them mid

Don't lie, you only like her for her tits lol

>>95864635
>Ranger is the best mid-high level knowledge class once they get Master Monster Hunter since they can start using Nature on everything
not even in this conversation until now but thaumaturge can do this at level 1 with their built in auto-scaling lore that scales with their primary ability score, and they also get to do it for free every time they do their "I'm gonna do this at least once per target" action
also that lore applies to literally anything, not just monsters

>>95864702
>You become trained in Esoteric Lore, a special lore skill that can be used to Recall Knowledge regarding haunts, curses, and creatures of any type, but that can’t be used to Recall Knowledge of other topics.

I think you took the Dubious Knowledge feat irl or your thaumaturge friend has been bullshitting you

>>95864739
https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=3699
you don't seem very experienced with pathfinder 2e

>>95864702
While I also am down on Ranger, Monster Hunter does let them recall when they hunt prey, so at least action wise they're not out in the cold that badly. It's mostly that the level 10 upgrade is laughably late and they don't even get any extra skill advancements, so it's pretty frustrating until you get to that point

>>95864896
yeah. I do agree that the monster hunter line is actually solid. it could be better, sure, but a lot of things could be better. outwit should just get autoscaling in it
I just saw "they're the best at recall knowledge" and that's laughably false

>>95863333
Fighter is the most common class made in D&D/PF games for new players. It's the Space Marine of PF2E, OP raw stats and simple play style. I am happy that fighter don't actually suck for once and they're fun to play

Fighter has to spend actions to get bonus damage and effects that other classes just get passively or have to do things in a very certain order, which makes fighter extremely limiting and vulnerable to CC(stun especially)
Experienced players like classes they can stack rider effects on and dynamic rotations to bounce back from rough turns; building around dangerous encounter to come back from not planning around win-more encounters. Fighters cry like babies when they get stunned 1

>>95864910
in a way diverse lore can be less advantegous at times since you might have to burn 2 actions to learn as much as other classes would if they crit, which you specifically can't get and -2 largely downsides the benefit of rolling against a lore DC, and when you explore vulnerability you don't compare to standard DC which against uncommon and rare enemies stacks even more DC increases against you. On top of having to see the creature when monster hunter is just on hunt prey which is more open

>>95864778
You said the lore itself and made no mention of feats
Thaumaturge has the schizo RKs on lock down at low levels, but most parties don't like when RK crit fails and adding to the DC to do more RKs

>>95864915
I've been playing d20 elfgames for 18 years now and fighter is still my favorite class and class fantasy, and I still play it about 40% of the time during the rare times I get to not be the DM. pure martial without temper tantrums is the coolest thing to me
as strong as pf2e fighter is I think it's missing the "hero moment" sauce. now, I hate 5e for damn near everything else, but I genuinely think second wind and action surge are the sickest shit you can give a fighter. the most "hero moment" thing fighter gets to do in pf2e is basically just be immune to fear passively, and you might get a crit but that's just a crit not a decision. compared to the explosive shit you can do with action surge I find it pretty disappointing
I've sort of fixed this in my current game by going exemplar dedication with titan's breaker on my greataxe, and one of my allies gave me a faith tattoo, and my god is gorum who I revere even unto his death, so I CAN just delete a motherfucker with a truestrike fracture mountains, but even that just doesn't scratch the same itch and completely lacks the "coming back from the brink of hell" feeling. but that's also literally this entire system. it's very win more/lose more in general once you get past the hilarious swings of levels 1-3

however, I'd also argue that fighter's damage rider is hitting and critting 10% more often. just because you're +2 doesn't mean you really want to strike a 3rd time. I don't feel stunned hurts fighter any more than it does barbarian

>>95864915
Not sure where you're going here because I'm not really commenting on how strong they are. Fighters are undeniably good and strong, that's fine, pretty happy with that. I've seen GMs get pissy because a Guisarme trip fighter was running around slamming things onto the pavement and putting it into a blender for their team.

I just that I do not like the weird universal proficiency rubberbanding the class has through the leveling curve, and wish it committed to being all in on ONE weapon group being better from the start if Paizo wanted to limit it. The current thing feels stupid, the level 1-4 "everything is expert" training wheels that I've seen actively trick new players, combined with the loss of any way to add any secondary weapon group rubs me the wrong way.

>>95865049
I think it's done to allow people to experiment and fuck around from levels 1-4 but then they have to commit to mastering one weapon type
which I also think sucks but I guess I understand. giving them legendary in all weapons groups wouldn't really change their power all that much. more versatile, sure
but I kind of just hate weapon group mastery in general. it literally only ever feels bad to me
"I'm playing sword guy but we just found this badass axe, but I'm sword guy. guess we'll just vendor it"

>>95865032
No reactive strikes and no flourish+press combos

I do agree, I think fighter should have been given a more dynamic action econ that could spend as they please. Maybe they needed one action or 3 actions? But I think that would have been a bit to crunchy for the Space Marine philosophy that Paizo went with for fighter

>>95865067
I wouldn't be so annoyed about it if Fighter didn't hit legendary at 19th level in everything anyway, and they weren't actively removing every way for them to add a second weapon group. It just feels so damn arbitrary and noncommittal, like they couldn't think of anything else to put there. "Arbitrary and noncommittal" is a lot of classes though.

>>95865049
>>95865067
>>95865105
fighter really, desperately needs different subclasses for this and many other reasons.
>Weaponmaster
Keeps the current weapon proficiency, including familiarity with advanced weapons as a base feature, but you lock in at level 1 instead of level 5.
>Tactician
Focused on reactions, interrupts, and more utility-focused attack feats.
>Indomitable
Gets some defensive reactions, stuff like 4e/5e second wind, not as offensively strong but gets rogue-level save upgrades.
>Versatile
Gets the versatility features, except they can retrain a lot more stuff and do so as a refocus activity instead of daily. Can also transfer runes between weapons whenever they do this

The exact specifics are a bit muddy but basically take all of these different aspects of fighter and actually separate them. The legendary weapon user, the reaction master, and the versatile warrior. You can be ONE of those things. And throw in the "guy who just won't die" for good measure, since that's a classic fighterman fantasy.

>>95864680
>If fighters didn't have that +2 you'd call them mid
I never said otherwise? I said nobody is bitching about fighter big damage. People are bitching it gets crazy CC just from hitting creatures and being able to steal other classes gimmicks and do it better.

>>95865176
What is some of this crazy CC you speak of?

>>95865344
not him but if you haven't seen a combat grab-dazing blow fighter you haven't seen a fighter period
trip guisarmiers are pathetic in comparison

>>95861569
Bumping this since the thread is just Fighterfag crying about 2e being criticized otherwise.

>>95865379
Just adding on to this that the crushing rune is also insane on fighter.

>>95865379
Yeah I have, it's not bad but it has no peel compared to other stuns let alone spells. My fighter at the table spec'd out of it because Dazing Blow was a press attack along with combat grab being press. Doing a full MAP grapple felt like a waste to him I think

Needed too much set up while other stuns like Stunning Finisher and Stunning Fist

>>95865475
Best on Brawling that also slows on a crit

>>95865426
If you're making a Starlight Span magus you're a magical girl-- might as well ham it up

>>95865575
That doesn't really answer any of the questions or help in any way and also you're thinking of a different dedication entirely.

Fighter only gets crit spec for ONE weapon group
Swashbuckler gets it for everything for anything they're an expert with
Ranger gets it for everything verses their hunted prey
Barbarian gets it for all melee, including unarmed
Monk gets crit spec for all unarmed and monk weapons
Rogues gets verses off-guard and Ruffian can get all simple weapons
Champion can use Blade Ally once a day
Gunslinger get crit spec for all guns and crossbows

I really want to play a switch hitting swash-champ tank now though

>>95865665
I am implying you should take it instead of psychic dedication

>>95865675
I'm already Level 6 so the Psychic Dedication is locked in and I have my Imaginary Weapon.

>>95865157
I hate subclasses when class archetypes exist

>>95865904
Funny you say that because class archetypes are kind of dogshit design in their present iteration, eating a class feat and dedication slot is moronic

>>95863538
I noticed a lot of players rank druid as one of the weakest casters, but they seem to have more going for them than wizards

>>95865904
CAs are absolute dogshit unless they are a notable increase in the class's overall power
avenger is probably the only one in the entire game that maybe earns its status as a CA rather than just being a subclass

>>95865915
>>95865979
It allows for a bigger design budget to actually change up a classes while most subclasses budgets are tied behind feat lines. Some subclasses are bonkers good while other classes get basically nothing or it doesn't matter at all

But what CA do you consider bad?

>>95865991
not him and not a FUCK CLASS ARCHETYPES weirdo (many are undertuned but that's just the design space being underutilized) but holy fuck does bloodrager leave a bad taste in my mouth
no one in the whole entire goddamn world wants to use attack spells and double-no-one wants to use them with even worse accuracy

>>95866068
I do fine with bloodrager in my side group and he uses the same progression as any other dedication for spellcasting proficiency, which is generally not as good as being actual full caster obviously. Very tanky, good damage, access to tradition’s spell list and also a switch hitter all at once

Spell attacks are used for switch hitting to mooks or softened targets, as ranged has always been a weakness of barbarian especially two-hander ones. Bespell Strikes is legit with shocking rune and a big ol' axe.
But what you really want are the buffs like haste, bless, tailwind, teleports and true strike etc that you can restore from drinking magic-user's blood or just carry the scrolls/wands for outside of raging since you have access to the entire spell list

2e, why is bloodrager not a bounded caster?

>>95866885
I personally believe it was some weird-ass page space issue. All the Class Archetypes in War of Immortals were only 1-2 pages large, which makes a bit of sense with how they were squeezed between Animist and Exemplar and the Mythic System. Fitting in the spell slot chart and proficiency changes might have been too much. Still, it is super awkward, I feel like only giving a CA Spellcasting Benefits misses the point of it being a CA. They don't even bother giving it their own Focus Spells or just letting them take Sorcerer ones.

>>95863910
SRD is setting agnostic; I know it's Aldori Defender.
>template
I know exactly what it is, I'm keeping this lowkey should the player end up here.
>if he becomes undead
That specifically will not be happening; the player told me outright that they were not looking to become an undead pc. That's why I said 'something like the vampire template', not just the template itself.
What I was actually asking was if the tradeoff for higher power earlier with less scaling was fair, not an examination of what the pc is doing.

>>95866955
Bloodrager is very close to being OP. What holds it back is mostly enemies that are immune to bleed

To make Bloodrager more caster I think you'd need to remove other feats and features

Why does my wife always play druid with a wolf companion?

>>95867103
Both her PC and the wolf should be female

>>95867065
>Bloodrager is very close to being OP.
you can't just say this without a detailed explanation

>>95867103
she is simply based

>>95867103
you just know...

2e
I'm playing a fighter and not using a reach weapon and don't want to, so I get an AoO like once every 2-3 sessions. I've already played a Knockdown bot once and don't want to do that again either. My reaction is a pretty dead resource the vast majority of the time.
Are there any magic items that provide usable reactions?

>>95867369
I'm a big fan of Burnished Plating. 10% miss chance as a reaction, like quasi-concealment.

>>95858454
>it probably should have been used more for cantrips and focus spells
I'd hate it if Paizo's usual balancing of 1 action spells came into play. Like if the 1 action version of Dazzling Flash was Blinding Beauty.

How can you make Battle Oracle work?
>Must sustain to maintain weapon proficiency if you can't strike every turn
>Light armor
Seems like trying to melee is just going to get you killed.

https://2e.aonprd.com/Archetypes.aspx?ID=307
>You can take the Cleric Dedication feat without needing to meet its prerequisites and before you take two other feats from the Razmiran priest archetype, but you must choose Razmir as your deity. All spells granted by the cleric archetype when gained in this way are occult spells instead of divine spells, and cleric feats that normally have the divine trait instead have the occult trait.
Which way does this work? Do you pick from the Divine list but switch the Divine trait for Occult, or you have the Cleric dedication but pick from the Occult list?
Also what the hell are the 31 Steps? From the other edicts/anathema/domains and stuff Razmir sounds like a fun time. Being an utterly deluded yet devoted charlatan-rube cultist that tithes everyone and everything he sees seems very fucking funny, and the Razmiran mask is an absurd item. Granted I don't know shit about fuck about Razmir besides what's on AoN about him.

>>95867486
>Which way does this work? Do you pick from the Divine list but switch the Divine trait for Occult, or you have the Cleric dedication but pick from the Occult list?
You pick from the Divine list, turning them into Occult spells.

>1e
>kinda want to make a cool swordlord build
>levels 6-10 are straight garbage
>it's better to just not advance it past 5, then go back to defender
How do I cope with blade autist class not even being great

>>95867477
its a inherently flawed option, it cant do what it wants to do, at least not any better than anyone else trying to do it.

Explain to me why the Sacred Nagaji's tail attack does not have the Grab trait. This is an order.

>>95867625
Oh how lucky. Here comes the Paizo 2e dev team to answer that question.

Uh huh
Uh huh

They say "give orange me give eat orange me eat orange give me eat orange give me you. Praise Balance."

>>95867690
Thank you for transliterating for me, anon. Since you're both here, if I were to give them an orange, could they put out an errata to balance it?
Better yet, could they just rework the heritage? I think it would make more sense for a Sacred Nagaji to play more into a divine spellcaster type character. It could, for example, just give the Nagaji Spell Familiarity spell feat, but change the tradition to Divine. I'm not sure if that's more acceptable than printing a usable natural attack, though.

>>95867849
In all seriousness, I think most reasonable GMs would rule you can use the snake tail as an extra hand. My GM does and I do in the games I run
>But that's not balanced!

Okay I guess I'll just play the 1000000th Variant Human with Natural Ambition and General Training then.

Would you house rule that cleave procs off troops or at least when troop segments are destroyed?

Could one of you systems geniuses help me build a level 7 melee cleric of tripkee ancestry in pf2e? Please.

>>95867914
This is why im not a fan of the ancestry design in this 2e. Paizo genuinely had a great idea turning your race into its own pseudo secondary class but they made it far too weak to allow any of the weirdo races fulfil the fantasy they are trying to portray.

We have the obvious memes like skeletons dying of tetanus and robots drowning to death but we also miss out on simple things like making Tieflings absolute freaks with random dice rolls or having to spend your entire ancestry feat line just to make your tail useable.

Hey there anons. About a year ago I played my first sessions of pf2, thought it was brettu gud, not perfect but certainly playable. I was the dwarf ranger pregen for a few games but it quickly fizzled out as people stopped showing up. A new game is supposed to be starting up soon and I'd like help rolling up my own character, not a total meta slave but not gimped mechanically either. Ideally, a landsknecht type fighter (yes, male human fighter is bad and boring, I am aware) who uses brutal melee weapons but is also a bit of a /k/ommando and wears a brace of pistols over his heavy armor to start combat with before he gets to the melee. I sort of doubt this is actually viable, and if so, any build suggestions with an interesting, coherent theme are welcome if they are at least a little bit competitive crunch wise. Thanks in advance.

https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=2789&Redirected=1

Am I misreading here or did they make a Level 12 Rune that's not possible to use effectively until Level 20 on a character with heavy armor?

>>95868966
Fighter with Bastard Sword + Freehand

Free archetype with Way of the Drifter Gunslinger dedication or Duelist Archetype with quick draw with a Gunner's Bandolier loaded with pistols/handcrossbows that have special ammo such as silver bullets and fairy shot

>>95869322
I assume it's a misprint lazily copied over from pre-remaster, since the legacy text is the same. Pre-remaster, increasing the strength requirement by 2 would be increasing it by 1 functional boost.

>>95868832
How do you balance strong races with humans though? Often the fantasy of a human character is not having special innate advantages but coming out on top anyway thanks to their mettle.

>>95869322
Works fine on splint mail/half plate; basically, you're choosing between a fortification rune and the bulwark trait. Which honestly seems fine to me; I wish PF2 had more tradeoffs like that.

>>95869331
>str main weapon for someone who wants to use guns
???

Anyone know what the new thaumaturge implement is coming with battlecry?

>>95869930
You say this like humans dont have the strongest ancestry features in the game. Just give them what they have now but stronger. Make them Potential-man. So for example the Automaton's entire feature is them being immune to a bunch of shit and thats about it. Sure you can give them fun feats like rocket fists or the ability to turn into a truck and rollout. Humans can just start with a whole bunch of extra feats and maybe even an extra boost. Their feats can be teamwork, indomitable human spirit and multitalented based. Boring but quite strong mechanically.

>>95867477
Give it embodiment of battle from animist instead of the dogshit it gets as a level 1 focus spell.

>>95867477
It is absolutely a rushed and completely broken (worthless) option. Whoever was the designer for the remastered oracle needs to be taken out back and shot for being a lazy cunt.

>>95868966
Wouldn't really work great. In addition to prioritising STR over DEX, firearms wouldn't be your weapon focus, putting the to-hit for them at a solid -4 or worse over your main weapon. That's in addition to the action economy struggles you get with firearms.
You can't really mix ranged weapons with heavy armour, or two-handed melee weapons.
>yes, male human fighter is bad and boring
Human fighter is one of the strongest characters you can play, and fighters tend to have a lot of unique builds. They're too good, with too much of a variety of things they can do, compared to other classes. Unfortunately you kinda have to lock in on the thing you want to be doing, so you can't effectively mix and match like you're planning to.
>any build suggestions with a coherent theme
You could stay on the whole landsknecht thing but drop the firearms. Polearm or Sword focus, heavy armour. If you want to metaslave, get a guisarme and go to town on tripping stuff. Otherwise some other reach weapon will work fine, you can play towards area control with feats that give extra reactions and improve what you have.

>>95870370
>rushed
>lazy
It was deliberately killed (not that it was good in the first place) because they didn't want it stepping on the toes of their shiny new animist.

>>95870450
more surprising how they didnt kill animist and only really touched spamming x3 the same focus spell

>>95870547
we back in business if they ever give us more apparitions with damage dealing focus spell

>>95870547
>>95870634
oh yeah and nerfed healing a tiny bit, not like avg paizoslopper doesn't give infinite time to heal with treat wounds
as to damage focus spell they've been bit crafty here since your primal-leaning apparitions already used up the elements other than electricity and acid maybe and they're not gonna go there that easily

I doubt they'll ever give animists more apparitions, it's not like adding a subclass or something, they're not a mostly permanent choice you make as part of the leveling process, they're something you're free to swap around every day. Putting any new apparitions into the pool means a buff to every animist at once and I'm pretty sure nobody thinks the class needs any more power.

I'm from dnd 5e and I want to play a cleric. What do the domain do? I don't see any of them have domain spells just those focus spells.

>>95870759
a shame then, cause i hate most of them. guess im sticking with cleric

>>95871053
Domains give focus spells. That's it, that's what they do. If you're looking for spells from other classes that a cleric can learn based on what type of cleric they are, those are handled by your specific god choice. Each god has three, with a few exceptions giving more.

My GM is running into a problem, he's running the Kingmaker game and given our character actions we're going to be going beyond level 20. Are there any epic rules or homebrew that can help out?

>>95871190
I'm choosing cloister since I prefer the more casting one.

>>95871197
after like level 15/17 the game scales in linear fashion so when it comes to numbers thats easy to figure out, feats im afraid no one really bothered but could just start handing out mythic destiny feats in place of class feats

you know, i am not a huge fan of paizo games but ill be goddamned if i don't love the PF1E ultimate equipment book.

great artstyle for all the items and tons of ideas to rip and use elsewhere. ill always keep it on my shelf!

have a good day anons

>>95870759
its not really buffing all animists till they can get more than 2 prepared apparition and neither increases the spellslots. Liturgist would have tighter econ to fit in 2nd focus spell in let alone 3rd and Medium would have some reason to exist beyond 9th level to ease up casting 2
ofc paizo also left the homebrew backdoor in if you really want to make one that shits out frost/lightning/whatever element cones starting from anywhere in 10ft emanation around you you'd just slap appropriate cantrip and mix of chosen element spell with irrelevant lore

>>95870759
Adding a new spell buffs every caster who can get it.

>>95871670
This is true and power creep on the divine list is why the divine tradition is no longer a beaten dog only tolerable by clerics because the healing font meant it was really hard for them to be bad.

But a new apparition is a new vessel spell (which tend to be quite strong and diverse from other vessel spells) and a whole suite of signature spells from other traditions, it would a huge increase in versatility in one package compared to the usual paizo strategy of putting out 20 spells in a book and making one or two of them good. Or they could just balance it like they did with custodian of groces and gardens, give it one decent apparition spell and a decent vessel spell and then pad out the rest of the chassis with on-theme dogshit.

>>95871670
Unless the spells suck ass.

so casters powercreep more often than martials since theres always new spells but not always new martial options?

>>95872032
It's a grab bag. There's always new stuff, and it only takes one character option that's a teeny bit better than the previous pick to shift the whole landscape upward. It was in at release so it's not "power creep", but an example of an item like that was pre-nerf Gnomish Flickmace. It wasn't even a class feature, it was just an item, but it distorted the whole playing field to the point that they ended up nerfing not just the item itself but its entire weapon group.

Phantasmal Doorknob has done that to a lesser extent (it goes in the "why wouldn't you grab one?" category), and also received a recent nerf. And the Exemplar archetype is probably the single best dedication to the point where very few classes that make Strikes *wouldn't* take it if they were gung-ho about optimizing, although I think Paizo considers that a self-solving problem because the dedication is rare.

For a spell example, we did see it in Player Core 2 with Live Wire, which immediately became the damage cantrip of every character that could access it before being nerfed as well. So I guess to answer your question, power creep comes from anywhere. Even if the power creep comes in the form of a particular class (like Exemplar), it still might have significant impact so long as other characters can access those features. I don't think casters see significantly more of it than martials do.

Hey, could I get some feedback on homebrew? The Inventor one got a lot, even if it's still a INT Barbarian (thank you)
https://pastebin.com/TGYcKsT1

Will be playing in Season of Ghosts soon. Think I'm gonna play a kitsune (non-furry table, everyone gets hybrid form) thaumaturge. What's your favorite implement? I've got my eye on either bell or mirror, personally. But I've never even seen a thaumaturge in play so I'm not entirely sure what to expect. I'd be much more interested in lantern if it had any real combat applications but alas.
Kitsune feats seem pretty shit. Star Orb is neat for Rekindled Light but it's kinda fuckin dead until then. I guess it can get Restorative Familiar and just hang out in a pocket and that's potentially pretty strong. Frozen Winds heritage seems like a powerplay given how the AP mentions "winter fucking sucks" so I'll probably do that.
Also strongly considering just going 3 Dex instead of 3 Strength, and relying on antithesis as a damage rider. Unless the party ends up full of non-damage characters I guess. Then I'll play some other shit entirely.

Good ideas/bad ideas?

>>95872292
Bell and amulet are both solid defensive reactions, I'd probably lean towards bell because clumsy is a really good condition to inflict. Mirror has some big problems, it makes you really easy to target and the adept benefit takes away your choice of which of you is real RAW which can be frustrating but it's a 20ft teleport and flanking partner from level 1 and some people really like it. Lantern is a perfectly good second implement to pick up later.

Kitsune feats do kind of stink, I'd be tempted to go with a versatile heritage and lean into that instead, maybe changeling or hungerseed to lean into the eerie/eastern theming. Going dex is fine, the low strength stings a little in the really early levels but it gets less significant as you progress.

>>95870759
Apparitions are sort of like Patrons, where they are light enough in text yet valuable enough that they can probably slot in one or two a book. They are a little more bulkier than average but I wouldn't think that they are that complex to kitbash together, no more than Wizard Schools (which we've been getting at a surprising decent pace, shitty as that mechanic have became). I'd be shock if there's no Dragon Apparition in LO: Draconic Codex for example.

Animist doesn't really NEED more, god no. Witch is kinda ridiculous with how it seemed to get something EVERY book, I think it is easier to count the books it didn't. But I don't think it is going to be something like Thaumaturge or Psychic where it just gets...nothing.

>>95872032
Caster powercreep definitely exists, way more than people give credit to. It's easy to repeat the Only Six Good Spells trite, but there are a good amount of options casters get all the time beyond spells and recent classes have been stepping on some toes. Sorcerers getting Propelling Sorcery, Witch's glut of content, Animist's existence, it isn't just good spells that are added but how some classes just lack modern options, even post-Remaster. So the powercreep in that space is more egregious than not, more warrant discussion and notoriety.
In regards to martials, it really isn't a matter of quantity, so much as how martial design been a little stagnant over time. Most good martial options tend to be only good on crit, leaving it the realm of Fighter 9 times out of 10 (Crushing Rune, Phantasmal Doorknob, Eldritch Archer buffs, etc.) . And most martials just tend to be good enough a class that they don't really need support all too often beyond Archetypes. So it's not as interesting to gab about unless it is something blatantly ridiculous.

plus most martial support tends to be in the way of magic items and magic item design have been fucking miserable since the start so...

>>95872209
gunwitch could use a later level feats be it for movement or a crit rider of some kind, maybe letting hexshot explode in 10/15ft bursts on reflex vs spell dc

>A magus may step, stride, leap or make a melee Strike as part of the action for entering Arcane Cascade, resolving after entering the stance
Is this a reasonable minor compromise adjustment to make?

paizo... *cough*
the... the sorcerer bloodlines... *wheeze*

>>95872292
Foxfire is useful on a thaumaturge since it lets you dual wield non-weapon implements, and works well for a dex character. Bell+Regalia is pretty good, range matches decently with foxfire if you go that route.

>>95872754
>Just do fucking anything
I'd just redesign Cascade and Spellstrike at that point

>>95872818
I'd gladly use foxfire if it got an ability score to damage, but a raw d4 is just not even worth swinging. ... Though I suppose Exploit Vulnerability would actually act as a rider for it, huh? That's actually an interesting idea.
Unfortunately I might actually be married to Kitsune Lore since I want more skills and I am a stupid 0 int idiot. Pay no attention to Diverse Lore and how I actually know everything but I don't know shit about fuck.

am I missing something about exemplar? I've seen people say once you transcend an ikon your spark automatically goes into a different ikon, and you have to constantly cycle your active ikon, but I don't see that anywhere. I just see needing to "reload" your ikon after transcending with no need for it to be a different one

>>95873011
It's in the transcendence tag.

>>95872825
Wanted a middle ground between free action and 1 action for Arcane Cascade and slapping a basic action is just the easiest way to get there, while changing very little else about magus so as not to spook any of my playgroups when I bring it up.

If I was just going to go for my true feelings I would probably just say that Cascade isn't a stance at all, just a passive always-on benefit for Magus that let you change its damage type based once per round as a free action. I don't really have the headspace for what the fuck to even do with spellstrike right now, though.

>>95873040
ah. that feels squirreled away. thanks
I'm contemplating a bow exemplar but the much cooler bow ikon having forced splash damage feels pretty bad. pretty much wish I could have the unfailing bow imminence and starshot's transcendence

>>95873218
The weapon ikon balance is absolute dogshit, I hope they print new ones that cover the gaps better but I have a feeling it'll take a long ass time before paizo prints any new exemplar shit worth a damn. Unless that Myth Speaker AP comes with anything for it.

I want to be a weather god. How can do that in pf?

>>95870136
There's no shame in using a ranged weapon as simply a magical ammo delivery system or mook killer

>>95872292
>(non-furry table, everyone gets hybrid form)

Was this necessary to mention?

>>95870429
PF2E is very generous with ability mods, so having side-arms is fine. Every character should have a ranged and melee option, it's better than doing nothing at all

The best characters are the ones that can operate is hard situations, not ideal ones

You know I really have to wonder what the devs were thinking when they opted to have the de facto Magical Girl archetype pull from, out of ALL of the spell lists, they just had to pick the Unchained Summoner's. Literally anyone else's would have at least SOME options for blasting, and while that's a sub-optimal way of doing 1e combat at the very least it's a LOT closer to the class fantasy!

>>95873148

>Wanted a middle ground between free action and 1 action for Arcane Cascade and slapping a basic action is just the easiest way to get there, while changing very little else about magus so as not to spook any of my playgroups when I bring it up.

dude, there is literally zero reason for it to not be a triggered free action, any spell worth a damn takes at least 2 actions. The sooner the idiots at Paizo realize this, the better.

>Arcane Cascade (Concentrate, Magus) as a free action, there is no stance trait
>Once per round
>Triggered by Cast a Spell with 1, 2, or 3 actions(no reaction spells or minute to cast) or a Spellstrike

You can use it on the same round after Shield or 3-Action Force Barrage

>>95874249
I agree, given I already said I straight up think it should just be a passive effect at this point, I just know most people are fucking spineless and scared because "oooooh spellstrike big number so scary and strong, we can't buff magus!"

does anyone actually like how surprise works in pf2e?
how do you run situations where your PCs are ambushing a group of enemies?
I basically just let the PCs have one action or activity and then start initiative normally

>>95872855
I mostly agree on Foxfire, but Thaum is the non-caster class I think it could work on. The average damage for a d4 weapon is 2.5. The Thaum gets a flat +2 bonus for anything not two handed. That brings you up to 4.5, which is the same as a d8. You're at least doing about as much damage as a sword and board after exploit vulnerability. I still don't think it's necessarily good, but it could be fun. Extra hands for a Thaumaturge is great, especially if you spec into stuff like scrolls. I'm not sure if you're playing FA, but even without it, Thaum has dead levels where you can easily fit in an archetype. If you want more skills, grabbing Rogue or a caster archetype can help fill those in.

>>95874533
I did have my eye on scrolls because I feel like you're fucking up if you don't, so that is another point for foxfire actually. I'm GMing 3 pregens+this character through the beginner's box just to see how the class works (man this thing teaches some abhorrent GM practices). I did end up doing 1 strength just because it sorta fits the character (aggressively helpful busybody, all those errands has to mean some kind of muscle) so my shortsword damage is actually pretty okay. But foxfire might just be more fun, and I could actually have a point of int for another skill training.
No free archetype, otherwise I'd definitely feel fine on skills instead of very strapped. Just ABP and maybe incremental ability score increases. I'm particularly in favor of that one but it's not finalized just yet.

>>95874531
There is no surprise round in PF2E

Initiative happens when time-tracking is needed plus intent, stealthing around, traps or social encounters.
In combat encounters-- if your stealth initiative beats their initiative they're off guard.

Typically if enemies are surprised they might have to stand up, be out of position, seek and draw their weapons as well. It's very action-taxing if they're not just marching around.
The reward of ambushing is good deployment, off-guard and an action advantage

A pot-shot rule is not a bad house rule for a passive or overly conservative party but will be exploited by an already aggressive party or by the GM when enemies do it to them

>>95874653
>In combat encounters-- if your stealth initiative beats their initiative they're off guard.
That's a rogue feature.

>>95873148
I'm telling ya.
The way to fix spellstrike is to take the strike off it, make it advance map by one, reduce the action cost to 1.
Suddenly magus is the spell combat class and not the nuke casino class.

>>95874533
>>95874591
As an addendum one thing I'm noticing is there's no way to get that sweet sweet crit spec on foxfire. And even if you could transfer the crit specialization of a weapon implement from handwraps of mighty blows to foxfire (maybe?) I don't actually want a weapon implement.
Getting a crit with that sling spec and foxfire arson might actually be kinda badass if that were possible/

>>95874769
Spellstrike just uses too much of the class budget and its flavour too. I want my magical swordsman to be alot more versatile in combat and pulling off crazy animoo shit instead of constantly trying to get a hit of spellstrike every round like some magic junky.

>>95873997
That's what bows are for, since they don't have terrible action economy and a massive reliance on the Fatal trait to work.

>>95874769
That leaves more questions than answers. Please elaborate

>>95875552
Only thing I left off is flourish. There you go.
Magus strides to a goblin warrior, uses spellstrike with ignition and a scimitar. Makes a weapon attack roll and hits, deals 2d6 (7) fire damage. Goblin dies. Magus has an action left over to forceful sweep strike another goblin, cast shield, whatever.

The whole problem with spellstrike as it exists is that it you're asked to pay double action cost for a weapon strike that doesn't achieve anything for the class fantasy. It's been under everyone's noses this whole time and no ones thought to say actually, we don't need this.

>>95875614
How does this interact with save spells?
Also, I disagree, I think being able to make weapon attacks that are infused with your spells is a pretty core part of a spellsword's class fantasy. It's just badly implemented in 2e.

>>95875622
>weapon attacks that are infused with your spells
Literally what I just described. Magus attacks with the scimitar. Deals the damage of ignition.

I wouldn't change anything else, I already think being able to ready paralyze for when a monster strides next to you is too strong.

>>95875633
That doesn't really do it imo. You're just shooting a spell out of a sword like it's a fancy wand. The fact it's a weapon is basically irrelevant.
Also, you didn't answer how this works with save spells. Do you attack against their AC to determine the effects? Their relevant save DC for the spell? Can you just not use them?

>>95875645
It'd work how it already works.
Make an attack roll. If you don't critically fail the spell takes place.

Just leave the I HAVE TO STRIKE headspace and think outside the box. This is the way. The big elephant in the room is the 2 action spellstrike in a 3 action turn. We just make it 1 action, we just take off the strike damage and one step of map advancement.

Effectively what I am doing is taking a melee martial and allowing them to cast a spell in place of a strike. That is what a magus should be. That is what works inside the action economy.

What a magus instead is is a wizard with more hit points that gets to hit the target of their spell with a sword for free. That's awful in a 3 action turn and anyone whos had to actually play one knows it.

If you want your sword attack still just make it at map 5 or something. And before you make any points about starlit span getting hosed, good. I hate starlit span optimizers and want anyone playing it to be doing for theme reasons exclusively.

>>95875711
>I hate starlit span optimizers and want anyone playing it to be doing for theme reasons exclusively.
>I hate people who want to play their class without getting raped by Reactive Strikes

Weird hangup desu.

>>95875711
>Make an attack roll. If you don't critically fail the spell takes place.
So you're attacking, except the attack does nothing, and then the target still gets to save? Just for the meme of being able to quickened cast? And your DC is still completely ass, because you don't have good INT, and you don't have actual caster proficiency? And this is considered an upgrade to you, all so that magus can... make cantrip attacks with their weapon once per turn.
You think you're improving the class identity and giving it more variety, but you're just pigeonholing it even further into "I MUST ATTACK WITH A SPELL" because that becomes their sole fucking class feature.
>impotent rage over starlit span
Ah, there's your issue, you're so desperate to sink a meme build that happens to sort of kind of maybe be an okay way to play a dogshit class that you're going to drag the whole thing down with it.
Seethe.

>>95875735
really bad chatgpt response.
The objective is in fact to pigeonhole it into I must attack with a spell.
That's the stated aim. If that's what has happened good. The desired outcome has occurred and I can pat myself on the back.

Write your own posts you lazy faggot.

>>95875751
>I'm going to fix spellstrike because it eats up the entire class identity and reduces magus to just being spellstrike the class
>So i'm going to make them even more hyperfocused on spellstrike and remove the value of them doing anything other than spellstrike
This is what, the third, fourth time you've posted this dogshit "fix" in these threads? Nobody wants to see it. It's so bad I might mistake it for official paizo material.
Also, nice mask off admitting that it actually was your stated goal to just make the class into spellstrike bots after going off about how much more diverse it makes them. Very paizoesque.

Optional Magus Feature: Spell Combat (replaces spellstrike)
2 actions: You cast a spell. You can step, stride, or strike with a weapon you are holding either before or after the spell is cast. If you have a swim, climb, or fly speed, you can swim, climb, or fly as appropriate, instead of striding.

Remove bounded casting. Magus spell slots are now 1 slot of each rank available to their level, plus an additional slot of their highest rank and 2 additional slots of their second highest rank. No 10th rank spell slots, as usual.

>>95875784
If it's been posted more than twice then I'm not the only one thinking it which I find very encouraging. Thank you for pointing this out and by doing so offering your support.

Btw don't concern troll it makes you look like a fucking idiot. It's 2025 dude no one falls for that shit. Literally using the word diverse baka. You're like some sort of retarded neogrog.

>1 action spellstrike guy is the modern audience orc
LMAO of fucking course

>Paizo is a bad company guys. By the way, if you change so much as one jot of the rules for any game for any reason, I will immediately strawman you in reference text boilerplate. This "allegedly" "dogshit" game is fucking sacred to me, and you're not to do anything with it but pretend to play it, like I do.

Retard.

What's the verdict on the combo point Spellstrike hb?
I.e., Cascade as condition, Spellstrike requires Cascade condition value 2, reduces Cascade condition value by 2, Cascade is increased by XYZ actions.

Here's my Magus homebrew
>Make them a 4 slot wave caster
>Spellstrike now needs to be charged by casting spells. Each charge does a certain dice of damage that increases as you level. The damage each charge creates is dependant on the type of spell you cast so for example, a spellstrike that has two charges both made by fire spells would only deal fire damage. But if one of the charges were created by an illusion spell then half of the damage dice would deal mental. A Failed Spellstrike does half damage.
>Magus has a spell combat feature that allows them to Strike by replacing the manipulate trait while casting two/three action spells.
>They have a similar feature to wizard where they bond to a weapon that allows them to recall spells. Bonding with a weapon also lets you do cool shit like teleport it to your hand etc.
>Feats are far more focused on doing cool animoo shit in combat that let you gain charges.

>>95875948
As much as I like that sort of thing, I don't think it would really work unless you could reliably charge cascade by 1 on spellstrike turns, or 2-3 or more on non-spellstrike turns. Combat is generally too fast.

>>95875925
>Incomprehensible_Schizobabble.txt
Hmm, yes, I see, I see.
Anyway, have you considered that your dogshit "fix" is the problem, not the idea that you're changing something? Just make a good change, like... basically every other suggestion made in these threads, like all the other magus suggestions, or those champion ones two threads ago, or the various monk ones, or the exemplar archetype ones, etc, etc, etc...

You're a 70IQ russian monkey who assumes everyone can read his mind and gets unreasonably angry when other people can't magically conjure in the insufficient information in the posts you make and naturally draw the wrong conclusions. Fittingly, your homebrew (SPECIFICALLY YOURS) is bad and nobody else wants to see it.

>>95876008
Shuttup Retard you lost this one, go next. That's your formal thread name now, Retard.
Also jfc talk about schizobabble. I didn't even know about half of these. I'm sure some of them were good if they ground your gears.

I'm not dragonirian. he type lower case and makes gramatic error freqeuently. the authenticity is appreciated over your style though.

>I'm definitely not (person that wasn't mentioned by name) but he's very authentic and it's appreciated

>>95876024
>i'm not dragonirian he type lower case and make gramatic error frequently. the authenticity is appreciated

>>95876086
If you greentext my post a third time, bulgarian folk tales claim he will appear and post dnd warrior male traditional.jpg before launching into an illegible antiwoke screed.
Is that really what you want?

how do i unholy champ

>>95876240
It works better as an archetype on another class.

>>95876271
wut class

>>95876287
Any melee martial that either doesn't want to be hit or can fork it with reactive strike.
I'd do ruffian.

>>95876299
thank u aonn

>>95875433
Quick drawing a hand crossbow, throwing weapon or pistol is going to be better if you want to have something else in your other, shooting a bow needs both hands

>>95876579
>Quick Draw
-2 feats

>>95876579
If you want to be using a big two hander as your primary weapon, you're better off with the bow. Swap is just one action and you don't need to worry about reloading. Just grab it when you need it, put it away when you don't, it'll always be ready to use.
Thrown weapons are in a better place since quick draw ends up as beneficial to them rather than simply being neutral with the action loss of having to reload.

>>95876614
2h'ers are really bad for switch hitting since you have to change your grip, 1h'er with the Two-Handed X trait are excellent though

But you can just preload a bunch of 1h pistols/1hxbows with Gunner's Bandolier or use Thrower's Bandolier

>>95875433
Really, not even bows fill the niche. Switch-hititng has never been a thing in these kinds of games, and the fact that it's such a long-running meme is a pet peeve of mine. In any game like this, where you spend gold and character options in order to build towards a particular playstyle, it's basically never a good idea to siphon of a portion of those resources to put towards some other, situational playstyle that you're less invested in. If you're wielding a sword and the enemy tries to fly away from you, the answer is basically never to drop your awesome, rune-encrusted longsword that you've pumped strength for and have multiple feats for in exchange for your longbow with a lower-level Striking rune you looted off of a mook previously and start taking pot shots. The answer is to drink your Potion of Fly, or click your heels together in your Winged Sandals, or activate your Winged armor rune, or do any of the other things you've built towards instead of that.

It is almost without exception a worse idea to build for a secondary playstyle than it is to just build so that you can always enact your primary playstyle. The answer for a melee character versus enemies who get at range isn't to engage them at range, it's to run after them and keep murdering them in melee. And likewise, if you're a ranged weapon user, the answer to someone who runs up and tries to club you isn't to drop your weapon and pull out a club of your own, it's to use Parting Shot, or Elf Step, or Mobility, or any of the other purpose-built tools to get yourself back out of melee and continue killing them with the weapon you actually want to use.

The only exception here is games with automatic bonus progression, but I feel like that should be flagged if that's what we're talking about.

>>95876672
The closest thing to real switch hitting support this system has is Kineticist and some of the ways you can build a throwing knife Shadow Sheathe Exemplar (Dex primary, Str secondary, possibly grabbing Two Weapon Warrior archetype for Double Slice). Maybe the second closest is a Thief Rogue with Spirit Warrior and Cutting Heaven, Crushing Earth with an ancestry that gives a ranged natural attack, but that comes with the problem of those natural attacks being even shorter ranged than throwing knives can manage.

>what about Triggerbrand and Drifter Gunslinger?
What about them? Those are shitty melee classes pretending to be switch hitters.

>>95876672
>>95876700
Switch hitters you need some system mastery to build and know your magic items. Bandoliers and Doubling Ring, if you don't know those exist you can't really play one properly and will think drawing a bow with it's own runes is better

Throwing weapons are great and one of the highest DPR ranged builds, since you're getting your strength added to the damage

>automatic bonus progression

Never use that unless you want your skill monkey to solo the game, automatic rune progression is slightly better but it gives a item advantage to weapon enjoyers who really don't need a buff

>>95876024
this post wins the thread

>>95874666
You are correct, I should have worded that differently

Undetected gives off-guard if you were Avoiding Notice while exploring, if your stealth initiative beats their perception initiative you are considered Unnoticed by those creatures therefore Undetected

The rogue feature just allows you to do it even if you aren't undetected or if another creature points you out, you will still get off-guard if you act before them

I'm doing research for one of my next sheets and I have so say, am I just stupid? I feel like there HAS to be more creatures out there that have this whole "mouth in the stomach/torso" gimmick but for the life of me I cannot find many if any within the Bestiary with my searches. Can any of you think of one off hand that even remotely fits this body scheme?

>>95876874
With Fleshwarps and grafts anything is possible

>>95876760
There's definitely tools, though like most things those tools only come into play at levels beyond where a lot of people who are going to complain will come on and start posting their frustrations with shit (level 1-4). A Thrower's Bandolier full of shuriken and whatever light melee+thrown weapons will likely cover basically all your needs on a per-combat basis. Blazons are the ones that work with thrown and ranged, though. I fully believe you should be allowed to attach a blazon to handwraps.

I like the idea of automatic rune progression (or at the very least "you only need to buy one set of fundamental runes per character") just because I would really prefer property runes to be what makes a primary weapon, not "this has the Math Fixer thing on it, so I HAVE to use it". Just ANY incentive to ever swap to a second weapon if they aren't specifically built for it.

>>95876760
>Bandoliers
I still have that in my 1st printing Core Rulebook before it was errata'd out. Very obscure!

>>95876892
Technically you're right but I'm just shocked that there seems to be a lack of creatures that just have this... theme I guess represented.

>>95876760
>>95876943
I will never play without ABP again, personally
primary runes are an absolutely fucking putrid system that makes all the treasure you're adventuring for absolutely worthless
you don't get loot and you don't get to be rich, you get to keep up in math to the oblivion-scaling world around you

>>95876943
The low-level meta is very different than mid and high level ones. The meta changes as levels progress, melee becomes far more dangerous for example

Itemization is really hard for players coming from 5E because they never built characters with items in mind and are easily confused by expected treasure

>>95877070
Sounds like a GM problem, throwing too many PL+4s and not giving out enough rewards or downtime for shopping/crafting

I recommend using the Treasure By Encounter table, since most GMs don't do EXP right such as rewarding it for hero points, hazards, traps, social encounters or use higher EXP caps such as 1200 or 1500

>>95877143
what good does downtime even do if you're not a crafter?

>>95877163
Earning Income, treating diseases, trying to sell magic items for a higher price, retraining, traveling, learning spells and just general RP to meet with NPCs for quests or going to your deity's temple for a boon

That's not including other subsystems such as research, infiltration, leadership, influence or even chases

>>95877218
Rituals are also huge, a lot of need a day to cast

>>95877218
>earn income
absolute filler that never feels good, not gonna lie
>treating diseases
okay, sure, if you have one
>selling magic items for higher prices
are there actually rules for this? we've always just done 50%
>retraining
alright, not always relevant though
>traveling
during downtime? doesn't that make it not downtime? what do you get out of this?
>learning spells, deity's temple for a boon
not all characters/towns, but sure
>other subsystems
I haven't really looked into these much or at all. I should probably see what leadership and influence are all about

I'm playing in triumph of the tusk right now and half of the party crafts and the other half does not. I'm never really certain what to do since I'm just a greataxe orc fighter. I'm trying to do the leader of man (green) thing so I'll generally just say I'm training soldiers or whatever but I haven't actually seen ingame returns or indications that I'm accomplishing anything
we had to walk away from blisterwell for a while because our party is very narrow. we handled the tunnels, did a quick prison break, and recruited the warg, but the rest is kind of shitting the bed. our bard died and we've got a wizard now, but he hadn't had any time to learn spells or anything, so we fucked off to urgir so he could do that. the current plan is to just turn invisible and infiltrate the keep to kill the leader while chaos ensues (dragging the zetogeki to town via egg theft) because as far as any of us can tell the haskudar dudes are of no real help and can't win unless we win for them
so I've got downtime with no idea what to do with it pretty often

>>95877359
Fighters tend to have very weak exploring and downtime game if they don't pick up rituals, an archetype or some skills to do so. I know my fighter is making a ranger next campaign because he realizes combat encounters are only part of the game not the entire game
GM Core has variant rules for selling and shopping depending on the setting. Traveling during downtime might be an option to go to higher level cities to buy an item or sell something, typically a city has all common items available based on their city level and you might have to do some extra work for finding unique vendors for uncommon and rare items

Retraining is always good for knowledge based characters, they can train into additional lore for what they're about to encounter to get easier DCs and it auto-scales. If you know what's ahead, retraining a feat or two might be worth it if you can specialize

But yes, you should use the leadership and influence if you're spending time leading troops and hanging out with NPCs. You should at least get Earn Income if you were hired to do so

>>95877143
I don't see how changing the way treasure is distributed in encounters fixes the fact that so many items are just math fixers that exist to drain your wallet. I won't say that I couldn't imagine playing the game vanilla ever, but I really do not see the fucking point of stuff like fundamental runes.

I mind Skill items a lot less but it gets wonky for stuff like Intimidation or Athletics where you'll be doing this in combat and slowly fall behind without your scary skull mask or whatever. The fact that PF2e's items are predominantly just a treadmill takes a lot of wind out of my sails when looking over the treasure lists. Not that shit isn't fixable with some brainstorming, it's just really annoying to me.

>>95877565
People like loot hauls and the feeling of progression, if it feels like a treadmill it's because you're behind the curve or playing a frontline role

If you want to use the fun utility items you probably want to play a magic user, crafting class, arrow/bullet user or rogue.

>>95877641
>People like loot hauls and the feeling of progression
Has absolutely nothing to do with what the anon is talking about. They are complaining that magic items were designed as a treadmill to follow the curve of power that the system is designed around instead of actually being boons. He is correct.
>if it feels like a treadmill it's because you're behind the curve or playing a frontline role
It feels like a treadmill because it is in fact a treadmill. You can make as many vague whataboutery arguments as you want but that doesn't change the fact that this is how the game is designed.
>If you want to use the fun utility items you probably want to play a magic user, crafting class, arrow/bullet user or rogue.
"Fun" utility items are very few and far between plus having to keep track of 10 random Tchotchkes that do very minor effects is just annoying and really makes magic seem lame.

whats annoying is that even if you bring down ACs by 1/2/3 you will still be beholden to striking unless you want to reverse engineer the hp equation to account for no striking runes that replaced BAB

>>95877742
>just annoying and really makes magic seem lame.
On brand for pf2e then

>>95877641
>it feels like a treadmill it's because you're behind the curve or playing a frontline role
It feels like a treadmill because you can spend five minutes looking at the way DCs scale and see the jumps when you're supposed to gain the relevant item bonus. Shit, if you're not playing PWL then even utility items are a treadmill because of static DCs. The whole treasure economy of PF2e is buggered and it's arguably the worst weakness of the system

>>95877758
I hate how 2e's dumbing down the front-facing math means that reverse engineering why a creature has X, Y, or Z is such a task. In 1e, the math may have been more unbalanced, but for basically everything other than Natural Armor there was a SYSTEM that the devs just laid out for you that told you how the creature in front of you got a certain stat.

>>95877758
the game would be a fuckton better without striking runes entirely and with just potency runes adding their usual +1/2/3 to damage
I hate hp bloat so much

>>95877742
>>95877873
The power curve of PF2E is that as you progress, the question is no longer becomes if you hit but if you crit; all the bonuses do in fact means something in expanding your crit range. Here is one of the lead designers talking about the math:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pz8zHp5Fw_I

The math is not bound accuracy like 5E at all where you roughly have the same hit and crit if you fight equal level monsters.
You do not 'fall behind' as much as your crit range just stays the same, an inventor for example won't suddenly not be able to crit overcharge because they don't have an item bonus. The chance of them succeeding stays roughly the same as it increases with their level.
Missing damage runes would however make you fall behind the math, making PL+3-4 encounters last longer as if you were low level but if you were fully kitted dealing with PL+4 becomes easier, as the HP math is slightly different than the DC math

>"Fun" utility items are very few and far between

I would love to hear what you consider a fun item, from any system

>>95878027
Your statements make it pretty clear you don't understand basic addition

>>95878048
This game isn't for you honestly

>>95878055
And that's a good thing. I'll stick to games with functional math and non-treadmill loot design.

>>95878066
Good for you, have fun elsewhere

>>95877992
If you don't think a customized oversized sniper rifle that has 3 attachments, half a dozen runes, firing specialized spell strike ammo, talisman affixed, augmented, buffed to hell-- to shoot a phased bullet a mile away at the BBEG that the psychic is spotting isn't pure autistic joy then I donno what to tell you

Spellshots are way too cool

>>95878373
>magic involved
fake victory. you didn't learn, you didn't improve, you achieved nothing. you cheated your way forward, relying entirely on arbitrarily modified reality
steel or nothing

>>95878027
From level 1 to 20, a monsters' AC increases by 29 Which just so happens to be the exact number by which a PC martial's attack modifier increases by from level 1 to 20, when including level bonus, runes, proficiency bumps, attribute boosts, and apex items. Of course, if you so much as dare to start with a +3 to your attribute (which someone like Alchemist or Inventor has to), you'll lag behind all game.

>spider yaoguai
>gotta take a feat to even have low-light vision like a spider would
>competes with taking crawling form for pest form
>which doesn't have a climb speed or EVER allow you to have a climb speed
>honestly some of the worst feat selection I've ever seen unless you just want illusory disguise stuff

>anadi
>spider form is big as hell
>no climb speed, no LLV access at all
>wow cool natural bite attack (only in big spider form) (it's not cool even if you're playing a martial)
>no climb speed until level 9, locked to spider form

>beastkin
>>>>>>>>>>>
god damn I hate the ribbons-only design of ancestries
and I swear a good half or more of the existing ones are just "shapeshifter but the feature that grants it makes it gimped as shit" until it grants you illusory disguise
so many ancestries just give illusory disguise

>mythic quest to free Shelyn from the lesbian brainwashing

>>95878601
If it were designed differently, players would have been in danger of being allowed to have fun

>>95876240
Step one. Don't pick Desecration or Iniquity.

Step two. Hope your GM isn't autistic and allows the Prone reaction to actually proc sometimes. Obedience is still the best unholy cause even if your GM is autistic though.

Step three. Go either Reach Trip or Grapple build like that guy in the last thread and focus on tanking through constant action denial.

You're better off playing a Holy or Neutral Cause in almost all cases but if you really want to make Unholy work, Obedience is at least a functional option that won't be an active drag on the team.

>>95878652
i meant desecration or iniquity, specifically the ones that have to be unholy

>>95878601
Can just do Awakened Animal.

>>95876240
Justice or Liberation.

>>95878595
High level characters have much easier time with PL+4 and crit chance than low level characters, why is that?

>>95878758
Heroism.
Literally just Heroism.
That is the sole reason.

>>95878758
More buffs/debuffs

>>95878758
heroism
you exist on the same plane as me so you're offguard, and likely clumsy too
you happen to have weakness 20 to something common by now (unironically only edge of monk is having fists count as adamantine and buncha other expensive metals if you want +3)
synethesia
usually have a way to get more than 1 mapless attack or alternate attack
there is 12(16) actions of us with the above conditions vs 3(4) of yours

>>95878767
>>95878779
>>95878810
Bingo

It's more than just item bonus, there's also more status and circumstance bonuses flying around

>>95878822
okay, but this is still not an unconditional part of the game and entirely contingent on having an occult or divine caster in your party

>>95878867
Brother just stop. You are talking to a paizo dickrider. They are all functionally braindead.

>>95878867
At a high enough level wands of Heroism are an inconsequential purchase and you only need 1 party member to be able to invest in the skill needed to use them.

>>95878867
Even without access to Heroism, higher-level characters on average can inflict heavier debuffs and gain more consistent status/circumstance buffs. They have more options to do such, ontop of the ability to cleanse debuffs on themselves.

>>95878867
There are ways of getting status bonuses outside of heroism, but yes if you're missing an occult or divine caster your party will hurt for status bonuses just as much as if you're missing a crafter you might be missing out on item bonuses

>>95878867
even a wand of +2 is often good enough for harder enemies and don't tell me that you can't spare a SKILL FEAT for TMI when it comes to heroism
most well built martials can still inflict debuffs without resorting to casting
enemy damage doesn't scale that well outside of spells maybe and there the GM has to effectively metagame silver bullets because of how high your saves can be and you usually get 2 saves with autoupgrade and some get turbo upgrades where they can't even crit fail anymore. And if enemy is casting then congrats they blew 2/3rds of their very limited action economy, and thats assuming it won't get interrupted and get prone to eat even more reactions. Enemy special action can help a bit but then a single action denial of some kind ruins that, or depends on hitting multiple times or on having a condition on a PC
smart party will also be forcing the enemy to come to them and that again is actions wasted so they get hacked to bit

>>95878892
Tourists need to be publicly humiliated when they start talking shit about phat loot

>>95878901
>>95878904
>>95878932
>>95878959
that's nice and all, but here's something for you: the gm parks a dispel magic bot in every other encounter
the accuracy is bounded.

>>95878609
Caydan...

>>95878978
>If a GM specifically goes out of their way to counter the party's builds, they suddenly become far less capable!
Is this an argument, anon?

>>95878990
okay, so now it's no longer an expected part of a normal party that everyone should have and is factored into the math, it's a specific part of certain builds.
Which is it? Make your mind up.

>>95879003
I'm NTA you've been talking to but the conversation initially started with the question of "how can people hit so far above their paygrade?" and then when people answered the question that somehow wasn't good enough and it became this thing of trying to outmaneuver the answer, as if supplying just the right gotcha would completely invalidate them.

>>95878822
You don't have a point here. Buffs and debuffs are designed as ways to tip the odds in your favor. But magical weapons, attribute-boosting items, and character progression are explicitly not made to do that. In a better system, they would be alternate or additional ways of investing in boosting your characters. But in PF2e, if you removed all of them, it would literally not make a numerical difference.

>>95878749
Obedience was Tyrant, the lawful evil champion before the remaster. Just because it got changed to being able to be taken by non-evil lawful characters doesn't mean that it isn't still the cause you take as a lawful evil champion.

>>95878978
if its a +4 with dispellbot then thats beyond the budget if you actually stick to the rules and even dispelling strike has a limitation of once per turn, and that ability is on like 4 mobs - balors, treerazer, wyrmwraith (divine only, including elder) and leydroth, first 3 all worthy of being a campaign endboss and not a random chud you throw at the party, and you still have to roll for it
and something you're likely to not get - PL+4 is not supposed to be everyday occurance unless you're a paizo freelancer or braindamaged from playing AV
>>95879003
magic increases/decreases are not factored in enemy math but that little bit of optimisation are left so you can feel "smart" for being such a pro gamer to squeeze out an extra bit to hit/crit

>>95879048
Okay, so pf2e's math IS bounded accuracy.
My point concludes.

>>95879042
Anon was clearly asking about the strictly unholy champions. What you're on about is besides the point.

2e
assuming i have not cringe gm the wrath runelords are still ok if i just want to throw spells around right

feels like another "you can take master wizard casting on spellshot without wizard ded" despite it not being on archetype's feat list moment

>>95879128
esoteric schizopost?

>>95879063
>>95878978
git gud at counterspelling, nimrod.
>the accuracy is bounded.
Is anyone particularly disagreeing with this point? Stat buffs don't really determine if a system is bounded or not. The game designers just tell you since, for good and ill, it makes the most sense in modern game design. Having endless numbers of permanent statistical modifiers or lacking a strong accuracy curve that hovers around the 45-60% mark is not what people are asking for in their games now. PF2e made a halfway point between 5e's totally bounded accuracy and PF1e's looseness. It's not a secret. The devs just told us that.
Yeah, the Red Queen Race of 2e is tiring if you do know about it or play suboptimal builds, but also it works for the most part in maintaining an RPG progression feel without overwhelming the GM in math. If it upsets you that much, OSR games are a dime-a-dozen now.

>>95879094
Yeah, probably better than ever before. The anathema is somewhat looser, Sinbladed Spell is more damage, Personal Runewell is even more damage, and having Personal Staff built in the dedication is really nice if you really love spamming fireballs.

>>95879146
>Is anyone particularly disagreeing with this point?
As per >>95878027
>The math is not bounded accuracy at all

>>95879157
>reading the posts you're disagreeing with
you're not supposed to do that

>>95879146
By your definition of Bound Accuracy then D&D4e would have it, which it doesn't. Flat math, very limited bonuses and absolute DCs are the hallmarks of bound accuracy

You'd have to remove level bonuses to flatten math, which is a variant rule, if you want PF2E to have more of bound accuracy feel and true midway point

https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=2762

>>95879157
That dude is fairly wrong (he probably meant more it isn't *like 5e's take*, but just poorly worded), but I don't think your points about Dispel Magic dude is correct either. That shit would suck in any game, do you really think high-level PF1e doesn't have someone that got tired of the party buffstacking like crazy enough he shits out an Anitmagic Shell?
Curb-tailing the amount and potency of buffs is important to a bounded accuracy system, but not it isn't what determines it. The chicken comes after the egg in this case, you decide on making the math first and fit everything in that box. I don't even think 5e's take is all that bad, either. Its biggest issues come not from the magic item economy or scaling, but the intentional lack of nuance in buffs/debuffs over Advantage/Disadvantage, creating a land where barely anyone misses their shot by Level 5 and heavily disadvantages those that aren't building for DPS. 5e Rogue suffers a lot because Sneak Attack Dice and effects does not make up for lacking Extra Attack, for example.

>>95879233
4e was already experimenting with the concept, but everyone knows the buff numbers just got stupid by the end. In fact, I am very certain everyone criticizing the excessive number of pathetically small bonuses was what forced Wizards' hands by the end.
And yes, PWL creates a more true Bounded Accuracy system but anyone can tell you it heavily changes the feel of the game. You aren't just playing 2e with the numbers shaved off, you are playing a far grittier and dangerous game.

>>95878932
>if you're missing a crafter you might be missing out on item bonuses
That would just be kind of antagonistic from the GM. The game doesn't expect you to craft, and is in fact balanced around the idea that you never really need to use it. In a normal game you just buy the item bonuses you're looking for and call it a day.

>>95879157
anon rly out here fiending the thread 3 hours straight just to slam dunk a paizodrone
not sure if sad or based

>>95879254
5E is the poster child of Bound Accuracy

BA can make a game very goofy if you introduce dark lords, demon overlords who can trip on marbles and can get Home Alone'd to death. It's a Sword and Sorcery power curve where regular humans and goblins should always be a threat to a degree, the point of it is to add grit and less superhero feelings

>>95879298
It does expect you to craft more than it expects you to have access to cities, because not all settings have magic stores or might not even have access to a city at all

Not having a magical crafter is pretty devastating for a party

https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=2617

If you want to look into TV's rules on Crafting
https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=1914

2e
Level 1 Bard here
I'm going to take Psychic Dedication because being able to use my Shield cantrip on other people sounds really cool

https://bsky.app/profile/paizo.com/post/3lrntsso7to2b

Rather powerful, really.

>>95879254
5e is corporate brand slop, only brand managers are doing anything with it
Even Mike Mearls talks shit about it now and says it was his attempt at an OSR for the red box reboot, he really hates bonus actions.

>>95879547
>trannybbq that looks like goatse
extremely powerful

>>95879254
>a far grittier and dangerous game
It's not more dangerous. Things like summons and items with DCs actually start to work. It's really just more grounded rather than gritty, unlike OSR and WFRP.

Freshly baked
>>95879664
>>95879664
>>95879664

>>95879547
>spellstrike faggot is a dad too and a twitter user on top of that
Modern woke audience everyone lmao, when you bake the next bread dont forget PACG or you'll get whats coming to you, ya fucking retard.

>>95879685
Anon, we can stop pretending. The orc is gone. We don't need to larp that PACG is something people actually play in order to troll him.