Which one is your favorite? Which one do you think is the most useful in the average campaign?

>>95852821 (OP)
Ren Wardo, Level 2 Magic User.

(I found an old Dragon's Den box set my folks had and I've been sperging out about it nostalgically.)

Anyway, closest 3.5 thing to that would be wizard.

>>95852821 (OP)
This art looks so fucking dumb, why do people keep posting it? The only character who doesn't look completely ridiculous is the thief.

>>95852936
NOOOO OLD IS LE GOOD NEW IS LE BAD YOU CAN'T JUST HECKIN SAY OLD ART IS BADARINO YOU HAVE TO SUCK GAYGAG'S NECROTIC COCK FOREVER NOOOOOOOOO

>>95853040
This art is from a video game that came out in 2006, and you type like you post on that soijak imageboard.

>>95853386
are you implying that art that came up almost 20 years ago isn't old?

Wizard by the end

Unironically?

The skill monkey/rogue. If you lack combat power, you can kind of manage. Muddle through. Find other ways to do stuff. Maybe hire someone who is bigger and stronger. The moment violence is not a viable alternative? Suddenly you are hosed. You can't point your sword at townspeople and get your way. Not forever. Not being a fugitive, or the new BBEG of the setting destined to be killed by heroes, is a big plus.

You kind of want the boring guy who just rolls to talk to people or rolls to know what you need to know. This is what will massively simplify your life.

Besides, DMs are often criminally guilty of scaling encounters to prevent team wipes. Cause doing that is lame. Bare minimum, they leave you ample chances to run away or avoid danger. So long as you aren't stubborn. Even at the meta level, just being the guy who kills stuff is less useful.

>>95853386
Anon that's...that's 20 years ago.

>>95852821 (OP)
>Guy who can hit stuff
>Guy who can warp the fabric reality
>Guy who can pick a lock

Gee, tough call.

>>95852821 (OP)
What system?
>>95853040
Better than anything modern, my seething redditor friend.

>>95853599
Fuck off, puckee.

>>95852821 (OP)
Depends on what game you are talkinh about.

>>95853571
>>95853711
I know, but it isn’t exactly related to heckin gaygaxerinoooo or whatever. That’s all I meant.

>>95854732
Does it really though?

>>95852936
I like it

>>95856637
I love the artwork
If only Oblivion let you look like that

>>95854942
Yes.

>>95852821 (OP)
Like everyone who ever played any Elder Scrolls game, custom class with Luck as one of your key attributes.

>>95853611
This shit is why I always went with the Skill monkey or caster; I'm actually consistently relevant outside of combat. Physicality-focused characters/one-note martials tend to be subpar at contributions when the violence lets up. Turning a goblin into a stain on the wall is fun, but you don't really determine when you get to do that, the party/GM does.
Besides, combat still can let more brainy party members shine. Checks to know enemy weaknesses, turning enemy traps against them, weaponizing the environment; all valid if the GM has the field of battle be more than a box where characters beat the shit out of each other.

>>95858134
I like all this.

I do appreciate having the living artillery canon that are overtuned combat builds around. Sometimes, yeah, you need something erased from life itself. Some people don't mind standing around 90% of their time so they can have their one Sword of Promised Victory moment too. You'll appreciate it when you really need something vanished.

That said, one of my more unexpectedly useful characters has their best use just being... art. It was a trait I gave them more or less on whim, but they can draw anything they've had at least a moment to analyze it. That has become weirdly useful all the time. Particularly in a plotline full of more investigation and intrigue than combat. Though there was one time I made a OOC judgement call and had them turn away from a set of magic runes knowing that memorizing them would complicate everyone's lives. A lot. A lot a lot. This is Dark Heresy, after all. I realized no way do we need that hanging plot thread over us. Screw that.

TTRPGs aren't video games so you can rig the situation as hard as you want and simply not engage until it's ready.

Combat specialists are pretty useless as a result unless you're completely braindead.

>>95860283
No.

>>95852821 (OP)
In any game where FUCKING MAGIC exists, the class that is the best at FUCKING MAGIC will always be the most useful.

>>95862084
they're ass in WFRP actually

>>95854942
Spoken like a D&D drone. Would much rather have a fighting man or a rogue in WFRP2, for example, than a wizard.

>>95862116
Everything Games Workshop touches is garbage, so not surprising.

>>95852821 (OP)
magic man

who is stronger, person with superpowers or person without superpowers?
>aaahh so difficult

this anon knows how dumb the starting question was >>95862084

>but in x game, magic suck and martials are kings!
if that game has any race with a lifespan longer than humans, then there's no reason why a character can just be a full mage + whichever is the best martial class
unless said long living race are fucking retarded braindead "elves" that might as well sit for 100 years doing nothing but shitting their pants because "hurr it's just a blink for my lifespan of 1000 years!", might as well play as an orange cat

>>95856669
Todd saw LotR and the rest is history.

>>95862116
Sounds like they're not very good at magic. If they were good at magic, they would easily be the best.

>>95862440
there aren't even any good spells to cast

>>95853386
And it looks like shit, and 2006 was almost 20 years ago. It very much qualifies as "old".

>Soijak imageboard
The fact you know this exists and I didn't until you said it did means you're outing yourself as an invader from there, wherever that is, and you need to go back.

>>95854933
My point stands. Old =/= good, especially art. Even 20 years ago fantasy art was atrocious.

>>95854103
>YOU HATE UGLY ART YOU ARE LE REDDIT
No. Not on a technical level, not on an aesthetic level, just fucking no. Also:
>What system?
Is proof you're the invader here.

>>95862084
Not in my system. Magic is either support (so the martials are even better than they already are) or damage (which gets an innate debuff compared to martial weapon damage, and full casters reduce their damage with weapons by two dice tiers, meaning that even with a 5 in a weapon skill a full caster will do at most 1d8 while a martial can attack up to three times per turn and sling out 3d12 damage per turn, more if they use their AoE abilities and potentially even more if they're dual wielding or have certain features, whereas casters don't get the radius AoEs until the endgame, so no fireballs until you're level 17 or higher).

Full casters don't have free damage like in 5e/2024/pf2e either. All the cantrips are utility based, and generally for magical shit or parlor tricks. You MUST either use a weapon or spend MP to do damage as a caster, and you will always be one step behind a martial in terms of raw output, and the MP costs are twice the circle of the spell (i.e. 5th circle components, as there are no pre-made spells, you build your own via components, costs 10 MP per component, compounding of course).

Full Casters also get the fewest skill increases and stat increases, wheras full martials get a +1 to a stat and a +1 to any two skills they want at level 2 and every 2nd level beyond. If using the Perk variant rules, Martials also get the most perks.Finally, there are no Shield/Misty Step/Forcecage type spells in my system and casters are extremely squishy with the inability to wear armor to boost their defense checks and incredibly low HP.

And while casters can eat shit, as they are faggot nerds who deserve to be bullied, for the sake of game balance I am keeping an eye on them for when I run the system here in a few months (after one of my regulars finishes running a game). I've already had to buff the number of stat and skill increases they get and bump their HP Recovery die from a d4 to a d6 just so they don't explode turn 1.

Fighter/Thief multi or dual class will always be the GOAT to me, but I like them all if I'm being honest.

>>95862746
Stopped reading after the first sentence. Too many words to just say you're a butthutt martial.

>>95862084
The best class at magic in Conan needs to eat children, murder people around them and sacrifice virgins to demons. There is literally no other way to be actually good at magic without long ass rituals.

I'm pretty sure most games can't accommodate a megalomaniacal cannibalistic sociopath as a member of a party.

>>95862398
>who is stronger, person with superpowers or person without superpowers?
Doesn't really work with Elder Scrolls image as an example. Since there are no people without super powers there. Only those who actually try and underachievers.

Guys with swords sunk half a continent into the sea.

>>95862705
It is no invasion to mock the ten millionth iteration on the martial vs. caster troll thread, and if you disagree, simply use your mod powers to delete my post. Your inane contrarianism on the Oblivion class art is similarly worthless.

>>95863335
True in Barbarians of Lemuria, as well. Though you needn't be totally horrible to get some useful magic. You just can't solve every problem instantly and effortlessly like a Ramps & Pronouns caster.

>>95863335
This sounds based as fuck and more fun that playing a retarded martial who's entire character-progression is [swings axe a little bit better now].

Martialfahs BTFO so hard.

>>95863346
Sounds like unironically a skill issue.

>>95863475
Hard to achieve this in a party, or without getting the entire host of good guy gods and their apparatchiks coming after you.

>>95862746
so you re just another retard that only played 5e/pf, got triggered by the caster supremacy and instead of playing a better game went the other way on the pendulum by homebrewing some shit on a d20 chassis to make martials stronger and shit on casters.
And somehow you re proud of this..

>>95863346
when you can casually be immune to magic and bitchslap archmages around like it's tuesday it most definitely isn't the setting where casters reign supreme.
Not everything is shit like modern dnd

>>95852821 (OP)
Thief

> can fight
> bad in a brawl, but good at ambushes and good at getting away from fights they didn't pick
> essential to solving non-combat problems

>fighter is excellent at a brawl but has zero non-combat potential
> wizard is good at knowledge rolls but garbage in a fight because every spell costs multiple rounds to cast, meaning that its not uncommon for the wizard to only get off a fireball on the last turn when there is only one goblin left anyway and thats all he did that entire encounter AND took up one of the only two high level spell slots he has

A fighter is solid backup, but needs the thief more than the thief needs him most of the time. The wizard is awesome in theory but largely impractical even at higher levels because the casting times keep getting longer, though I admit it is cool when a wizard finally does get to pull off a spell that took seven rounds to cast and obliterates a difficult enemy on the spot.

There is no ability stronger than the ability to choose your battles.

>>95852821 (OP)

>>95853611
>DMs are often criminally guilty of scaling encounters to prevent team wipes. Cause doing that is lame.
Anon, you're in an Oblivion thread. Also known as "Level Scaling: The Game."

>>95852821 (OP)
Fighting man

>>95852821 (OP)
I hate the stupid MMO tri system. Should be 4 at least, Warrior, Rouge, Cleric and Wizard.

>>95866956
>Cleric and Wizard
it's the same shit

>>95866841
If this is Oblivion based, this is even worse.

TES Wizards are, by and large, garbage. It's very rare someone knows more than 3 spells. Or can cast them more than a few times. Missing your three shots then rushing in with a knife is canon. According to one in game novel, the ability to even cast a fireball is pretty rare. Though technically, yes, everyone knows magic.

And in TES, stealth is supreme in any game they don't accidentally make the stealth formulas nonfunctional.

That said, nords with twohanded hammers are a hard argument to beat in any version of TES. Nasty.

>>95852821 (OP)
>Which one is your favorite?

Fighter.

>Which one do you think is the most useful in the average campaign?

Wizard, and it's not even close.

>>95856637
>Monk has European Christian attire and boxes
I kneel, fuck Jackie Chan and fuck Martial Arts.

>>95853599
Get raped and murdered, puckee, and your little mod, too.

Five people are planning a camping trip in dangerous woods.
>only one of them knows how to use and maintain a gun
>only one of them knows first aid and carries the medical supplies
>only one of them knows how to identify poisonous and edible plants and fungus
>only one of them knows how to cook and carries the cooking supplies
>only one of them knows how to read a map and carries the navigation supplies

>>95870440
Who do they eat first?

>>95873066
What do you mean?
Nobody should get eaten, right?
It's completely okay to pigeonhole one major, practical ability to each person of a party in a setting filled with danger.

>>95853040
Correct. Old things are better than new things.

>>95853611
>he has to choose between three very basic skillsets and can only be good at one
yikes.

>>95862084
Nope. My game has magic and it's perfectly balanced with all other options.

>>95862398
why did you reply to yourself?

>>95862697
Old = good.

>>95864199
lol your wizards suck ass

>>95870440
Who are you quoting?

>>95873716
Yes, obviously. Why bother posting this?

>>95874317
Greentext isn't just for quoting.

>>95856637
I choose Pilgrim for his ability to walk long distances. As a last resort I would chose Agent for his ability to earn commissions and serve The Evil White Lord of Capitalism.

>>95852821 (OP)

>>95862116
Not in 4e. They're busted in 4e.

>>95852821 (OP)
A thief's inclusion in the game implies dungeoncrawling, traps and disarming them, alternate ways to deal with enemies than just combat, like through stealth, scouting, trickery and social deception. The thief encourages the DM to deliver on more of the above, and less of the "kill all monsters, move on, repeat" loop.

That's why they're my favorite of the three.

>>95853611
Excellent post. The meta aspect of encounters scaling to your party makes them better as well, and even if they don't, you are then encouraged to deal with threats in more creative and fun ways to overcome this, which leads to fun stuff like luring some enemies away, funneling others into small tunnels, etc. You can of course do all this with just a party of wizards and warriors, but the thief i more likely to bring you that experience.

>>95875411
>ALAKAZAM
is what I've thought every time I've seen this picture since I was 12 years old

>>95852821 (OP)
Social Character > Mage > Rogue > Fighter

>>95874559
Wrong.

>>95877290
>he needs an entire character dedicated to socializing
holy YIKES lmao

>>95878882
seriously, why not just say whatever you want to say?

Not what I'm talking about.
In games with mechanics for socializing, you shouldn't need to devote 100% of your character resources just to be good at talking to people.

>>95870440
i see no issue with doctor and cook being specialized roles, though both should probably overlap with 3 be capable of identifying the plantlife that's useful in their respective fields
only one person having/understanding gun is reasonable too depending on how rare they are in setting

>>95880206
As far as I know there is no game that works like that. But having a character with a significant portion of their skillset dedicated to socializing tends to work way better than one totally dedicated to other skills.

>>95856637
>No women
Based?

>>95880507
D&D. The only reasonable options in that game are either to max out the social skills, or invest no points at all into them. If you aren't maxed, you won't ever be relevant. Most characters have barely enough points to max all of the relevant skills (intimidate, bluff, sense motive, etc), and then, of course, you have to take a class that has them as class skills, pigeon-holing you even further as "the social guy". Naturally, now that you've dumped all your points in those skills, you are worthless at everything else. And we haven't even mentioned support skills, like certain knowledge skills and perception, for example. The same applies to any other skill niche in the game.

>>95880507
And, again, the point is that you shouldn't need to invest a "significant portion" of your skillset in something as basic as talking to people to be good at it.

>>95852821 (OP)
>>95853942
>Class entirely limited to what he can touch
>Class entirely limited to the tangible parts of existence
>Class that, while not as good at manipulating the tangible parts of existence, can still do so in addition to accessing and manipulating a whole other aspect of existence
I know which one I'm choosing

>>95852821 (OP)
If I fuck around long enough I can learn how to swing swords like the fighter, cast spells like the wizard and sneak like the thief so it only matters what I'm willing to put up with at the gate.

>>95856637
fair, it's only the mage and the warrior that look super dumb to me.
Most of those look ok (except wtf is going on with the acrobat's head?)

>>95875937
>stealth, scouting, trickery and social deception
Which are all skipped/glossed over due to skills.
Skill systems were a mistake.

>>95880638
Not even close.

>>95875937
Nope, the thief is there to be bait for the monsters and nothing else, like all non-caster classes.

>>95880842
>>95880848
every bait deserves at least one reply

>>95880612
Why not?

>>95880607
Wow, I didn't realize it was that poorly-designed.

>>95880675
I can't picture any scenario where this would be the case. In what shitty system is this true? You describe your intended goal and how you want to accomplish it, then the dm calls for the appropriate roll to see if you succeed or not. A +X modifer to a skill doesn't skip anything. Features like "as a ranger you can never get lost so no need to roll to navigate, and you can always forage for food and find shelter without any checks" then yes, they're bad and skips over the part you want to play out, instead of just making you the most competent at them. This is never the case for stealth, stealing and stuff like that though, yafullashet

>>95880607
what would be the alternative to this though? turning all social skills into one would mean everyone picked it up and would be silvertongued. Having to actually put in more resources into it means you stand out as the guy who's good at it, and if you're something like a bard, ie the charismatic clss you have plenty of other skills to spend your skills on even if you literally pick upp all of them.

>>95881451
Because it's bad game design. Obviously.

Why can't I be good at talking to people and swinging a sword?

>>95882250
The alternative is a well-designed system where maxing out social skills doesn't require 100% of your skill investment, of course.

It doesn't mean everyone would max it out, and it shouldn't matter if they do. If "four people are good at talking to people" can break your game, your game is bad, and no one should play it.

>>95885660
I mean you can, but these games are supposed to represent how humans learn skills. It takes time to learn skills, and unless you are making your character old enough or smart enough, they are going to be deficient in some areas.

>>95887916
Your post and my post aren't mutually exclusive. Nothing you've said implies that I should have to invest 100% of my skill resources into talking to be good at talking.

>>95887925
That depends on how good you consider to be "good." Given the point of the thread seems to be that there are classes that are generally mutually exclusive, presumably because it would take way too long to be a highly-trained warrior, a professional thief, or a well-studied mage, I think it would be safe to say that being one of those would also leave you somewhat deficient in strong social skills. Not saying you can't talk to people and make friends, but you are not doing it at a high level in the way that a warrior fights, a mage casts, or a thief steals.

>>95887940
No, it doesn't depend on any such thing. There is no such thing as "consider". Either you can pass skill checks at least 75% of the time, or you might as well not bother. It's not a matter of opinion.

>>95887946
How often you pass your skill checks depends on how you build your character and what the DM gives you to do. In a good game, you don't have the luxury to simply refuse to do anything you aren't confident you'll do well.

>>95887979
Of course you do. Everything the character does, he does because of a decision the player makes.

>>95887979
And of course, this is completely irrelevant to the discussion - that being that there is no excuse to design a game where you can only be good at one thing at a time. This is true whether your DM is a railroading nigger or not.

>>95887981
This simply isn't the case. Not everything you do or are tested in is a result of player choice. For example, if an NPC tries to talk to you, and you refuse to talk to them because you have low social stats, and instead want another party member to do so, you would have failed whatever check the NPC is making against you. Your party member can pick up the slack, but you objectively failed by choosing not to try, and that's okay. Your character will fail at things.

>>95887988
I agree that it's good if you can be good at multiple things. All I'm saying is that if I were to pick from one subset of skills, which is the point of the thread, the most important subset in my opinion is social skills.

If you're a good GM then they're all useful.

>>95852821 (OP)
whichever one is the best at countering magic (not always wizard; it depends on the rules system being used) because the BBEG or ultimate conflict is almost always either an evil wizard, a magic-using monster, or some rampant phenomenon created by one of those two things.

>>95852821 (OP)
I tend to get more satisfaction from physical power than magical, but I do like to play the occasional wizard. But I only really find thief-type characters appealing in very specific circumstances.

>>95860206
It's pretty nice when a GM figures out ways to make niche skills useful. I once invested in Disguise purely because I was playing a guy
hiding from a cult he betrayed, but didn't have the class or skillpoints to be a proper sneakster. Just some backstory flavor.

GM then let me use it for various shit besides disguising myself or others — coaching party members on how to act in various social situations, handling the party socialite's outfits, making our temporary bases look uninhabited and inconspicuous, giving our ride makeovers when evading investigation or pursuit (think GTA pay n spray).

>>95862084
In Anima pretty much any character who isn't fully mundane can be broken as fuck. Mages do have the highest ceiling of power, but it's impossible to reach that ceiling without GM fiat and even if you do, the rituals to cast the high-end take a while so they're not viable in combat.

Like sure you can create a demiplane, become a demigod, or turn back time, but in the week you'll be prepping that, a martial of similar level can jump over your base and Kamehameha it into oblivion from orbit.

>>95887979
only if you're a completely braindead drone who can do nothing but go forward endlessly and fight every enemy to the death in honorable melee

video games are much better for this playstyle btw

>>95888021
No, it simply is the case. It doesn't matter if you failed by choosing not to try. That doesn't contradict my post.

>>95880266
>doctor
No. Not even someone who is a career doctor, but someone who knows how to administer first aid; basic knowledge of treating injuries, infections, burns, and poisoning.

>both should probably overlap with 3 be capable of identifying the plantlife that's useful in their respective fields
Why? That's not how D&D does it.

>depending on how rare they are in setting
Not only are hunting and defense guns readily available, but the means to learn their use is extremely accessible, like how magic is literally everywhere (except for a couple character options for the sake of sacred cows) in D&D.

The idea behind my post was to draw a comparison of only one person in a party having one practical and readily-available skill to a system that does the same thing, and see how people would try to justify it.
It doesn't make sense for five campers going into dangerous woods to pigeonhole one major role to each person, so why would a group of adventurers in a world filled with ubiquitous magic do the same thing?
The fact that pretty much nobody saw this demonstrates the long-term effects D&D brainrot has had on the people of this board.
Now cry about me saying bad things about D&D, because you have no arguments against anything else I said.

>>95890914
But it does contradict your earlier post about something not being worth trying unless you have a 75% chance to succeed. You cannot opt out of bad rolls when the consequence to opt out is guaranteed failure.

>>95890914
You can opt out of bad rolls. You can choose not to do things.

>>95852821 (OP)
Depends on the kind of game we are running.
Fighters are pretty good all rounders.
If we are going hardcore, trap filled, meat-grinder dungeon? Thief is pretty much mandatory but will frequently get you killed a lot too if the GM is doing hidden rolls for trap disarming (i.e. the correct way to do trap disarming).
Magic users when played RAW can be pretty fucking useless if they don't happen to have the right kind of spells. /tg/ operates under the impression magic users have ALL the spells and infinite castings at all times though, which contributes to the bullshit concept of caster supremacy.

Unless we are talking about Genesys, because then magic can literally do everything, it's just harder than mundane methods, can have disastrous effects if you don't succeed, and you become terrified to cast anything not in your wheelhouse and stronger than basic effects because you absolutely can cause a TPK from a single shit roll if you go big with a spell.

>>95892945
No. There are only a few good spells at each spell level worth preparing in slots that will cover 99% of all situations. The remaining spells can be placed in scrolls and wands.

Every encounter can be trivialized in 1 to 3 spells. Casters don't run out of spells and they certainly don't need infinite slots. They rarely need even half the slots they start the day with.

>>95891878
>someone who knows how to administer first aid; basic knowledge of treating injuries, infections, burns, and poisoning.
medic? nurse?

>>95893168
Any ordinary adult who isn't retarded.

>>95892906
Agreed, but then you automatically failed the roll. Choosing to not roll the dice doesn't mean you didn't feel.

>>95893378
No.

>>95892945
>Depends on the kind of game we are running.
Not by that much. The only dependency is whether or not magic sucks in the game you're playing, then you go rogue, otherwise wizard.

Fighter has nothing to offer to anyone.

>>95875486
If you actually can get a spell off after channeling for a turn or two, absolutely. Otherwise, roll on that miscast table nerd, some shit covered beggar just shanked you and you failed your channeling roll.

>>95893507
And the minor miscasts can give you 5 bleed stacks which is guaranteed death unless you can cast a healing spell immediately.

>>95893151
>Every encounter can be trivialized in 1 to 3 spells
Sure. Unless anti-magic fields and dispell is just hanging around.

>>95895486
Invoke magic, dispelling screen, decoy buffs, counterspell, disjunction, instantaneous effects, force effects.

>>95895486
Also, thanks for proving my point. Magic is the only counter to magic. The game is bad.

>>95893471
A lot of games struggle with giving the Fighter something to do when he's not, well, fighting.

Rogue can pick locks and pockets and sweet-talk people and sneak around.

Wizard can cast spells and spells can of course do anything the system allows spells to do, including emulating Rogue abilities.

Fighter gets to stand around twiddling his thumbs while he's waiting for the next combat encounter because he doesn't know how to do anything besides wear armor and use weapons.

>>95895497
You cannot cast spells with a mace embedded in your cock holster.

>>95895486
If the only way you can prevent a class from being completely OP is by outright preventing the class from using any of its class features, it's not a well-designed class.

you'll never get close enough to use it :)

>>95895636
And if we're talking 3.PF in particular then the Wizard can also do most of what the Rogue can without spells by virtue of his intellect giving him a ton of free skill points.

>>95895651
The point is that if magic is fairly commonplace, it stands to reason a method for dealing with magic would also be fairly commonplace.

If every other dipshit can cast spells, a wand to counter that shit would be as common as a dagger in a highwayman's toolkit.

>>95895636
>A wizard dedicated his spells to copying rogue abilities
At that point, just play a rogue.

>>95895669
Lack of proficiency in those skills and just outright not being able to use them without a proficiency is pretty damn limiting.

>>95852821 (OP)
In a video game, first time playing, always Thief since they are consistently versatile whereas some games have magic OP or totally useless, same with physical combat.

For a TTRPG, Mage because of the greater realm of possibilities.

>>95895689
No lack of proficiency. The wizard can max out the skills with less relative investment than the rogue.

>>95895689
>Picked a rogue when a wizard can do everything a rogue can, and everything else
At that point, just play a wizard.

>>95895669
>>95895714
>This just in, 3e and its derivatives are ridiculously unbalanced
>More at 11

>>95852821 (OP)
While I'm not fond of the choices of names for my own personal bullshit reasons, the videogame (but Keen approved videogame) Ultima 5's companion classes get it best.
Fighter who is all in on weapons and armor
Bard who is a half-caster, half-fighter. best lock-picker
Wizard who is best caster but no weapons or armor worth a damn.

>>95895653
sorry meant to reply to >>95895647

>>95895721
For the millionth time, a wizard usually won't have all the spells you assume they have, if they DO have them them odds are low they wasted spell slots preparing them. More importantly, if a wizard is just cycling through prepared spells from his pool of known spells and casting them constantly to achieve being a rogue through spell use, then the DM is too liberal with resting locations.

/tg/ is always operating under the assumption every wizard has every spell, all those spells are prepared, and there is an ungodly amount of casting always ready to be spammed. This /tg/ "wizard" can do everything but that "wizard" does not exist in any game and you would know this if you actually played a fucking game.

>>95897155
the wizard can always just choose to come back the next day

>>95897390
That's being too liberal with rests, ya dingus.

>>95898199
it's not a fucking video game where you have a limited amount of rests or whatever the fuck

the players decide when they rest

>>95898362
>The players decide when to rest
Ironic that you compared it to a video game when you are talking about the equivalent of save scumming.

The players can try to rest, but in situations like a dangerous environment or a time based quest or what have you, it's pretty good damn retarded to do so.

>>95898362
The DM also decides the consequences of the party leaving to rest and letting time pass.

>>95866841
>you're in Oblivion thread
ANON WE'RE IN FUCKING /tg/

>>95898362
It's a total video-game-ism that the players are in complete control of the entire timeline of the whole setting and areas where the party isn't are in stasis and nothing else happens anywhere else in the world except when the players are doing it. If your DM is doing that, they are shit.

>>95891878
The comparison doesn't apply if you play OSR games because those don't have skill systems. Each character class features abilities that are beyond that of normal people. It's akin to having a doctor, soldier, scientist as the leaders of a victorian expedition to african bush, alongside a retinue of laborers and common guards.

>>95898362
Even the 3.5e DMG says that if the players leave after say, killing a bunch of orcs, then the remaining orcs will have put up barricades and so on.

That's also why Tucker's Kobolds was a thing decades earlier. The party in that story HAD BEEN THERE multiple times before and so the kobolds were prepared for them.

You have to utterly crush an organized enemy without letting them regroup.

>>95898362
You get to benefit from one long rest per 24 hour period, and it takes 8 hours of in-universe time to do it. This means that your players have to survive that time, which is doubly hard if doing it in the dungeon, everything else in the world keeps going. For NuD&D play that means villainous plots keep moving forward and for OSR play the dungeon restocks with monsters but not necessarily enough treasure to make it worth it yet.
Finally, who says your wizard has all the spells in his spellbook in the first place?

>>95856669
You can look pretty close to a few of them. Knight and crusader are steel plate essentially. Archer, pilgrim and assassin are basically wearing the chainmail armour. Spellsword and warrior look like the iron armour without the goofy looking helmet. Rogue is wearing the quilted doublet, though it makes you look fat in game. Monk is just a straight up monk robe and bowl cut

Of course every character basically ends up wearing daedric and glass on because disregarding looks it's just objectively better, and even the highest tier enchanted stuff you find uses daedric, and enchanting stuff yourself is shit for some reason (I guess because it was so good in morrowind and they overcorrected?) Unless you use the scroll glitch to just permanently attach enchantments to yourself so you're immune to pretty much everything while naked.

>>95862746
That sounds awful. Making one class deliberately better than another is still shit design even if it happens to be the one you like.

>>95897155
Already covered this, retard. >>95893151

>>95899003
Yeah, Oblivion. I just said.

>>95899162
Doesn't matter. There's no counter to extended rope trick, you can't make the players care about anything in the world, not caring about anything in the world is the optimal strategy, and there isn't anything that can disincentivize the strategy. Kicking the players is an admission that the game is fundamentally broken.

>>95899234
No you don't. You let them spawn more monsters so you can get more XP.

>>95900066
You didn't cover shit.
You ASSUME that you have the spells needed to answer every situation on hand all the time and you assume the GM will just freeze time to let you get the spell you didn't prepare.

You CLEARLY do not play games. You CLEARLY just read PDFs and imagine scenarios where you always have a spell handy, and EVEN THEN I guarantee you didn't read the spell right and it doesn't work like you think it does.

Every "Wizards can just do everything" faggot is a nogames faggot. Every. Single. Time.

>>95900129
No, I didn't assume any such thing. Read the post again, and keep re-reading it until you understand it.

>>95900074
>Go hide in a bubble for 8 hours
>The enemy will just enter a state of suspended animation and not, say, flood the area with gas and ready ballistas on your bubble for when you do come back out.

>>95900162
They won't know where we are, since we have full casters and are thus infallible and undetectable.

>>95900134
Whatever nogames.

Yep, you lose, like all martialoids.

>>95899234
>That's also why Tucker's Kobolds was a thing decades earlier
it wasn't a thing you gullible retard, it's a fake story

>>95900129
you don't need to have every spell prepared you actual fucking imbecile

wizards can scout out what lies ahead without ever even getting perceived and come back the next day with the counters prepared

you will never understand this because you're simply too video game brained to wrap your head around the concept of there being no invisible walls that force you to fight everything you see

>>95900178
Sorry, meant to reply to >>95900174

lol seething

>>95891878
Anon, D&D's skill system is retarded, but someone not having proficiency doesn't mean they're clinically retarded in that sphere. For basically any check that can be done by the median adult in a no-pressure and tool-available situation you just Take 10/15/20.

>>95903183
meant for
>>95900178

>>95900074
The counter is that the task was time-sensitive and now you have to chase the target somewhere else entirely and repeat all your preparations only for them to leave again. Repeat ad nauseum until the armies of the dead conquer the world because your pussy ass never actually had the balls to engage with the threat.

>>95903713
and the counter to that is just ignoring it

>>95857996
someone needs to make a text-based game where having a high luck stat means accidental shit keeps happening to enemies and the action is described as fortuitous to you all the time

>>95900074
By this logic, any game that doesn't have hard-coded rules like a video game is fundamentally broken because you can always have a player simply ignore the rules.

>Basketball is broken because you can just not dribble
>Baseball is broken because you can just run around the bases without getting a hit
>Soccer is broken because you can pick up the ball

Removing players from a game that they don't want to play properly is a reasonable solution because the alternative is that any game with rules that can be broken ceases to exist.

>>95906307
>ai generated babble

>>95893507
Always start as a witch and never channel.

>>95897155
Scribe scrolls, craft wands.

>>95903713
Nope, we just scry and fry the target. gg

>>95906307
Nothing in any of my posts requires ignoring the rules.

>>95852821 (OP)
>warrior
sucks ass, damage scales on your stamina so your sword attacks can sometimes do no fucking damage
>thief
having 90-100 sneak in oblivion is worse than having 40 something sneak (with perks) in skyrim. at least it isnt morrowind.
>mage
actually fun. if you use the non damage schools too much though, the level scaling fucks you over though.

>>95908713
Now, what is your opinion of the archetypes in a traditional games context? Genuinely curious.

>>95906336
This is your loss by the way, since you resorted to ad hominem.

>>95900074
>you can't make the players care about anything in the world

I would argue that if your players don't care about anything in the world, you're failing in your job as a storyteller.
Unless you're not interested in storytelling and are just running a beer-and-pretzels kill-the-monsters dungeon crawl. A perfectly valid type of game to run, sure, but for GMs who *aren't* running that type of game, your criticism doesn't apply.

completely missed the point lmao

>>95909827
it's true though, what the fuck does it have to do with anything that's been said?

>>95906307
No. There's no counter to extended rope trick. Extended rope trick is provided by the rules.

There are no actions provided by the rules in those sports for which there is no counter.

>>95877290
Aren't social characters the most useless characters in any campaign?

>>95903672
Using hunting/personal defense guns which are readily available and whose training is accessible to anyone who does a little research isn't exactly no-pressure.
Yet if we operate on the D&D logic that's acceptable for D&D, a person can only be the gun guy, and nobody who chose to be a gun guy can't use guns effectively against the enemies they could encounter.
D&D character options don't account for what they'll be facing, they account for what pop culture was popular and what classes were sacred enough to carry over multiple editions.

>>95917600
never seen it play out otherwise

>>95917624
Why are you posting blank images?

>>95917682
Why are people posting blank answers in blank threads?

>>95917084
It's a response to the idea that "the game is fundamentally broken" if the only way to fix the game is to remove players who break the rules. By explaining that there are many games that are played constantly where you simply kick people that don't agree to follow the rules, I'm demonstrating that this isn't a useful belief.

>>95921348
but nobody's breaking any rules, retard

>>95919099
Answer me.

>>95921348
What rule was broken?

>>95923018
I did.

Didn't.

>>95921353
>>95923071
In a roleplaying game, not caring about roleplay would be violating the spirit of the game. This is of course subjective since some tables will care about roleplay less than others, but there is always going to be some kind of minimal standard. If players in your group are not interested in roleplaying to the desired level, it is totally okay to warn/kick them.

>>95925579
You didn't say spirit, you said rules were broken.
No rules were violated.
You were wrong.

>>95925579
you don't have to not care in order to not make retarded decisions that get you killed

you're retarded

>>95925579
And you haven't explained why it's against the spirit of the game. Extend spell is in the game, and Rope Trick is in the game. Why are they in the game if you're not supposed to use them?

>>95924851
Meant for
>>95923461

>>95862084
Not in Morrowind. Enchanters who don't cast a single spell can dismantle any mage. Instead of waiting on the casting CD, just get a ring enchanted to cast fireball, and you'll throw fireballs as fast as you can click.

>>95880663
I don't mind the warrior's look. It reminds me of something from an illuminated manuscript.

>>95925793
In Morrowind, enchanters still need to know the spell effect of anything they want enchanted. They also need to be really good at enchantment to make sure their ultra expensive grand soul gem isn't lost in the process.
One might even say that enchanters are the best at magic in that regard.

>>95925793
>enchanters don't cast spells
>they use magic ring to cast spells
You're just a mage with an extra step. Now, if you were talking about abusing alchemy stacking and then bashing heads with strength over 9k, you may have had a point

>>95925599
I didn't say you weren't supposed to use them. I'm a different person.

>>95925589
Rule 0

>>95926201
They only need to "know" the spell in the sense that they bought it from a spell merchant like it was an item. They don't require any skill whatsoever in the school of magic it's from, or even the ability to actually cast that spell. Spell school skill has absolutely zero effect on the finished product. Only enchanting skill matters. And once the item is created, absolutely anybody can use it. Casterfags only exist in that game as a means to empower enchantmentchads.

Of course, if you want to cut out casterfags entirely, the real power in Morrowind is alchemy anyway.

>>95928873
So "against the spirit of the game" doesn't mean you're not supposed to use them? Then what's the issue with players using them?

>>95928873
>Rule 0
doesn't say you can't use rope trick

>>95929889
>>95935724
I'm literally telling you that I'm not arguing about whether or not someone should be able to use rope trick. You're talking to the wrong person.

>>95935897
you're the same guy, don't even try to pretend

>>95936036
Ask yourself how many times someone has assumed you made a post you didn't and then realize how often you've probably done the same, including right now.

>>95938698
No one has ever assumed I'm someone I'm not, since I don't pretend to be other people in an extremely obvious and transparent manner, unlike you.

So if Rope Trick isn't against the spirit of the rules, what is? Why did you reply to me if you're not talking about anything relevant to my post?

>>95946992
I want to lead off by saying that it's okay that you think I'm pretending to be other people, and it's okay that you're wrong about that. Everybody makes mistakes sometimes.

>So if Rope Trick isn't against the spirit of the rules, what is? Why did you reply to me if you're not talking about anything relevant to my post?
Because your post was not specifically about rope trick and I don't know why you think it was. Perhaps you miscommunicated something. I was more focused on what came after your mention of rope trick:
>...you can't make the players care about anything in the world, not caring about anything in the world is the optimal strategy, and there isn't anything that can disincentivize the strategy. Kicking the players is an admission that the game is fundamentally broken.

>>95947989
My post was specifically about rope trick. That's why it mentioned rope trick, and not some other spell. Stop avoiding the argument.

>>95853599
Kill yourself puckee

This caster vs. martial troll thread, one of thousands like it, has been bumped for two fucking weeks. We NEED autosage back.

>>95948886
>This caster vs. martial troll thread
that's not what this thread is

>>95948886
Oh no, a local lord thread might have been lost! How horrible!

>>95877290
>Social Character > Mage > Rogue > Fighter
ah, I see you have chosen your class.