Welcome to the Old School Renaissance General, the thread dedicated to the first decade of TSR-era D&D, derived systems, and compatible content.
Broadly, OSR games encourage a tonal and mechanical fidelity to Dungeons & Dragons as played in the game's first decadeโless emphasis on linear adventures and overarching meta-plots and a greater emphasis on player agency.
If you are new to the OSR, welcome! Ask us whatever you're curious about: we'll be happy to help you get started.
>Troves, Resources, Blogs, etc:http://pastebin.com/9fzM6128
>Need a starter dungeon? Here's a curated collection:https://archive.4plebs.org/tg/thread/86342023/#q86358321
>Previous thread:>>95828704>TQ:Maritime, fluvial, and lacustrine adventures and campaigns! Have you ever played in one? Player or DM? Pirates, merchants, explorers, or just travellers? Favourite marine monster?
>>95858093>In the end, things like that which contribute to and facilitate player agency or enhance the feeling of immersion in the game for a particular group are why these games are so awesome to begin with. Groups that don't find those things fun don't have to use them.Preach to that brother. At the end of the day it makes the world more lived in and that's never a bad thing.
>What's an OSR?
>Don't know how to get started?
>The friendly n00b guide can be found here: https://pastebin.com/EVvt6P0B until further notice.
Want to contribute to the thread but don't know where to start? Use this table.
>1. Make a spell
>2. Make a monster
>3. Make a dungeon special
>4. Make a wilderness location
>5. Make an urban set piece
>6. Make a magic item
>7. Make a class, race, or race-as-class
>8. Make a 4-10 room lair.
>9. Make a trap
>10. Roll 2D10 and combine
>>95858045I think this is a misreading of what I intended.
The charts are there, you don't have to use any particular one. The most-used ones can be placed in some easy-to-access area - that's what a DM screen is, but the rest are (primarily) to be used during prep.
It's not like 3.5 where, while still being for prep, the charts are carefully set up to produce a certain result when combined with other things in the rules and there's weird ripple effects if you ignore them.
It's why I said before
>>95855473A lot of these kinds of things are better placed in supplement books. Use them if you like them, ditch them if you don't. Very little of any OSR is really "needed". The far "stripped down base rules" end of what an OSR game looks like while still being OSR (and not some more story-game-esque thing like Trollbabe) is probably Carcosa. The opposite end in my mind is something like AS&SH, but I'm sure someone else has 1-upped that by this point.
>>95858122 (OP)>Favourite marine monster?Crabnipede
>>95858156>Preach to that brother. At the end of the day it makes the world more lived in and that's never a bad thing.The opposite. The world ends up feeling artificial. A high roll on a random chart that spurs the players to try and take advantage of it like they're the only ones who could is strange and not how the real world works, especially when talking about mundane activities that are readily accessible.
I remember people playing a trashy wannabe-civ RPG, and their discussion on what their plans were was essentially just "I'm not interested in it unless I can monopolize it". Something in that RPG must have broken down pretty hard if making monopolies was so easy that they weren't interested in any other business ventures.
>>95858255>Like they're the only ones who couldHe said about a fishing spot with plenty of fish that had a bunch of fishermen already working at it.
Why are you so full of shit? What is your malfunction?
And why do you insist on forcing it on the rest of us?
Also
>A high roll on a random chart that spurs the players to try and take advantage of it like they're the only ones who could is strange and not how the real world works, especially when talking about mundane activities that are readily accessible.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oS9EEy4Hxc8
All I have to say to you on the subject. Leave your retardation in the last thread for once.
>>95858122 (OP)>We finally got 'Fish edition'https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gXTv_yKAP-E
>>95858283>He said about a fishing spot with plenty of fish that had a bunch of fishermen already working at it.Not enough, apparently.
The general idea that players would even try out-fishing fishermen is an odd one. Markets tend to stabilize rapidly thanks to there being more than a single party that is interested in turning a profit and being able to do so.
Many RPGs recognize this, all the way to the point of making it clear that Adventurers tend to do things that are simply unavailable to ordinary people, and that there really is nothing more profitable for them than adventuring activities because they've largely cornered that market. With mundane activities, you're faced with far greater potential competition, turning to far smaller profit potentials.
If the game instead is a matter of "Oh, I rolled this region to be abundant in lumber, you should try lumberjacking", that feels about as natural and realistic as a half-assed video game. Still could be fun if done right, but it's also very easy to make it terrible.
>>95858255>>95858358>especially when talking about mundane activities that are readily accessible.>Markets tend to stabilize rapidly thanks to there being more than a single party that is interested in turning a profit and being able to do so.This is the same reasoning as the dude in the last thread who asked why the local authorities wouldn't just clear out a dungeon. The og story had the nearby town, which ostensibly would be those making use of the fish and place, decimated.
The answer is simple. Most OSR settings have the unstated implication from the population numbers, distance between towns, and sheer number of marauding bandits, brigands, orcs, and other malcontents...
Is that they're effectively postapocalyptic. There isn't enough stability in the world to exploit these things for very long. Even the PCs doing so? It's only for a bit - there are bigger fish to fry. ;)
>>95858358>If the game instead is a matter of "Oh, I rolled this region to be abundant in lumber, you should try lumberjacking"This is intellectually dishonest. The are being discussed was rolled to be abundant in fish. The PLAYERS decided to give using it to turn a profit a go WITHOUT the DM suggesting it. What you're raging against is an instance of player initiative and a group having some fun with something you are personally opposed to. You should go play games from The Forge, because you sound exactly like those guys.
>>95858283Wow you're a salty bitch.
>>95858446>SaltyI prefer smoked myself :^)
>>95858444Neat, this gives me an opportunity to paste this from the end of last thread.
An unfortunate reality of games is that from the way they're set up, players may actually actively work against their own enjoyment and entertainment. Even if they would prefer to be doing something else, the incentives at play can make it difficult for them to go do more fulfilling activities. This is an ancient problem, and one that hits hard with video game RPGs in particular, with some games becoming frustrating grinding loops that players either suffer through in hopes of the game getting better or just they just drop the game entirely.
Players try to maximize rewards and minimize risk, which is logical to do, but taken too far it can lead to situations where players are not facing any real challenges or making any major discoveries, and are instead focused on safe, mundane activities with clear returns.
Imagine a game where going into a dungeon is a risky endeavor, but nets you only 10 gold. And, running a hotdog stall right outside the dungeon is 100% safe and nets you 20 gold. No matter what exciting things you put in that dungeon, no matter how much the players even know they would prefer to go in, there's going to be a very strong incentive to just run the hotdog stall and hope something exciting happens, especially if the players try "thinking in-character". Players stuck in a dull and depressing grind will still try and eke out entertainment from it, but you really can't call that a "win all the way around" if that happens. That's a multi-part failure and should be recognized as such.
>>95858283That song slaps.
>>95858461>He's back to fucking Paternalism again>Open 'Players are stupid and don't know what they want, lead them around by the nose or they might get 'clever ideas' that you can't stop them doing'Look, you're arguing by this point against some of the foundational things that make up the difference between OSR and other games.
Go.
Play.
Other.
Games.
You pathetic.
Wyrm (HD 8, Poison bite)
And you still haven't told us what you think a good session should involve as asked repeatedly last thread.
Fuck off until you have an answer to that one.
>>95858442It's the exact opposite again.
The reason the local authorities don't clear out a dungeon is because they can't. It's too dangerous, too risky, hence the need for adventurers, who are essentially specialists. Sending an army into a dungeon just for half or all the men to die is not a practical cost.
Asking why people don't go in a dungeon? There's a good, obvious reason.
Asking why people don't fish more? Huh.
>>95858461I'm not sure what point you're making because of the anonymity of the board. If you're the anon crying about the fishing, the players wanted to go after the fish. It wasn't a boring slog for them, a grind, or anything else negative. It was what they wanted to do.
>>95858513Literally every argument he makes ignores what was said. The party used that money to start a god damn military coup rather than going back for more fish.
They chose to engage in further adventures, despite the higher risk involved.
His entire argument is 'Players are animals, you need to beat them with a stick to get them to perform'
I'd call it intellectually dishonest but I don't think he's capable of being honest.
Oh and of course
>They were trying to out-fish the fishermenThe fishermen they were collecting because the entire area was being abandoned.
Who helped them gather the fish by the sound of it as a sort of improv reward for helping them and their families presumably.
It's absurd, how can anyone do this for 6 months straight without ever once having an actually a well made and thought out point.
Surely you'd have to stumble across one by chance eventually right?
>>95858461>Imagine a game where going into a dungeon is a risky endeavor, but nets you only 10 gold.Good thing this is a fantastic setting where there are more profitable things to do than fish. And moreover, gold from adventuring gives XP while gold from trade and fishing does not.
>>95858508>Asking why people don't fish more?What people? How fucking densely populated is your setting? The manpower to do ANYTHING significant beyond meagre subsistence and the crafts to support it drops off the further you go from major population centers, with towns and villages often sustained by a handful of leaders who are around level fucking 4 or below.
Entire settlements can be wiped off the map with nobody knowing for months because they happened to be within the path of some roving group of nasty people or things and information doesn't travel fast at all without magical assitance.
>>95858499You're not very bright and incredibly upset.
It's not that players are stupid. The opposite, in fact. Players will maximize profits, reduce risk, all very smart things to do. The problem is that players can be too smart for their own good, or rather, too incentivized to use their intelligence in ways that doesn't lead to their enjoyment/entertainment.
This is something game designers actually need to consider and understand when designing games. It's how you avoid players minimizing risk so much that the game becomes too predictable and lacks any excitement. It's how you avoid players getting fixated on activities that don't provide any real challenges, opportunities for exploration, or similar fun but potentially unprofitable activities.
It's not about leading players by the nose, my young "I can only argue against strawmen in my mind" friend. It's about providing them with an environment that encourages them to have fun and not be trapped following low-risk, profitable but ultimately unexciting ventures because they can't explain why their character would pass those up.
>>95858513Because they had nothing better to do.
>>95858576>You're not very bright and incredibly upset.You can keep going 'You're stupid and angry' all you like, that doesn't make it true.
The sad reality is you are, by the mountains of evidence we already have, too autistic, too arrogant and too emotionally invested for this conversation.
And again, you've still not explained what your sessions are like, so on top of everything else you're a coward.
>>95858576Your entire spiel is invalidated by the post above yours.
>>95858613>The sad reality is you are, by the mountains of evidence we already have, too autistic, too arrogant and too emotionally invested for this conversation.You're describing yourself almost painfully accurately.
>>95858548>Imagine a game where going into a dungeon is a risky endeavor, but nets you only 10 gold.Any 2e, 3e, or 5e game can work perfectly well under that assumption: The DM just gives the PCs XP for accomplishing the story goal of having gone into the dungeon.
>>95858616Not at all. The post above it doesn't say anything even remotely worth replying to.
>>95858625>Calls others young>Falls back on 'I know you are, but what am I?'Pathetic.
>>95858635Okay, imagine a dungeon that nets you 10gp and 10xp, and a hotdog stall, which for some quirk of the system, nets you 20gp and 20xp. The point being that putting incentives in strange places leads to strange behaviors, including players actively choosing less exciting activities.
>>95858650Wow, someone sounds both stupid AND angry.
Cheer up, grump.
>Quirk of the system
Intentional design choice, cope harder.
>Choosing less exciting activities
Evidence that you lack an imagination.
And you've still not told us about your game or what an 'actually exciting' session would focus on.
>>95858640If you made your setting have little rewards from within dangerous locations and ample populations working all natural resources to the best of their ability then you have failed as a DM and worldbuilder because you have implicitly given the players no reason to fucking do anything.
XP for gold recovered matters, but cannot entirely offset the problem caused by a DM not realizing that the base assumptions of most OSR games is that the landscape is basically depopulated, with few areas of civilized people save for small pockets and a handful of larger settlements.
That's where the term "points of light" comes from.
>>95858676WHY
ARE
YOU
ONLY
PUTTING
10
GP
IN
A
DUNGEON?
>>95858122 (OP)>Maritime, fluvial and lacustrineKEK
>>95858173I really love Carcosa but it's also super obvious why some people bounce off it (even if they don't get butthurt by the magic). There's a particular type of referee who gets excited by this style of presentation, the Wilderlands is the same thing. Others don't find that it sparks their imagination, it just confuses them. Where's all the information? Thing is though, it's easy for my type of "type A referee" to just figure that the "type Bs" aren't really cut out for running an OSR game, but in reality, they just really do *need* more content to run the same type of game. So I don't think it's as simple as you're suggesting. Some people thrive on the ACKS style of knowing there's a table for it if you need one and that table fits seamlessly with all the rest of the system.
What are some considerations that I should take into account before implementing ACKS domain rules into my B/X game?
If I am to design my own Level 20+ game, what should it entail if I don't want to use BECMI rules?
>>95858704>WHY>ARE>YOU>ONLY>PUTTING>10>GP>IN>A>DUNGEON?Well the answer to that is easy.
Because otherwise he wouldn't be able to make his retarded argument.
>>95858704The dungeon/hotdog example is an extreme one to illustrate a point.
Imagine now a game where if players do a series of one hundred math problems, they get 100gp. Example of a very tedious task, and a clear demonstration the game is providing an incentive to do that task. Following along?
Sounds awful, no question about that. But, let's obfuscate that principle a little from that clear and obvious example. Let's say that players who perform 10 math problems get 500 gold, and players that solve 110 problems get 600 gold. Let's obfuscate it a little more, and say that the math problems are set up to look like managing your character's taxes.
Some people might actually be willing to spend the hour doing their fantasy character's taxes in order to net that extra 100 gold, and any GM that would have such a thing occur has not done his players any favors by providing them that opportunity for engaging with the world.
>>95858771If hes serious, I'm wondering if he's just a table-based DM. Like he's worried that if the tables conflict it can produce a bad result. The edge case of low-value/high-risk rolls for dungeon stocking along with high-value/low-risk wilderness rolls would produce that sort of thing.
But that's why being a DM is also being a hobby-tier game designer, you make conscious decisions. None of the OG books will tell you about jaquaying dungeons or player agency directly, you have to either glean that from observation of good modules or learn it from discussions.
>>95858816???
The player can spend an hour doing taxesgets 100 gold. But the players already know if they adventure they get 2000gold + the XP that comes with it.
What the fuck are you on about? Do you play with 75 IQ high time prefernece inmates who can't concieve of anything benefitting them more than immediately?
>>95858704Because it's a dungeon, not a golden pinata. Ever been a real cave or tunnel system? The best loot I've ever found was a dead hobo, and that's easily worth less than 10gp.
Running a hotdog stall could easily be way more profitable.
>He's still desperately ignoring that the players then willingly and by their own choice went on to further adventure using the money they made
I don't know how someone wrote such a precise and specific mouth-fuck just for you. It's incredible how any point you make is just decimated time and again by what you're seething over.
>>95858838>What the fuck are you on about?Game design. Really basic game design, even.
Also, do you really not understand how examples work?
>>95858849That's irrelevant. We're talking about a grind, and you're going "yeah, but there's something after the grind." Kinda like saying getting a wisdom tooth pulled is fun because there's ice cream later. We're talking about the tooth extraction.
>>95858838>Do you play with 75 IQ high time prefernece inmates who can't concieve of anything benefitting them more than immediately?He doesn't play at all and is just trolling. Forget him.
>>95858887Do you live in the sea? Is that what's made you so salty?
>>95858852Why are your examples not reflective of reality?
Why do you ignore that the default assumptions of the game are that wealth is concentrated in dangerous places and that the population is tiny?
>>95858841IRL caves don't lead to giant temples of long-dead civilizations inhabited by intelligent giant spiders and two-headed humanoid turtles with laser eyes.
>>95858873Something that takes 3 rolls and less than 5 minutes of time INCLUDING DIALOGUE as part of traveling isn't a grind. You would be rolling for random encounters, giving the players space to RP during travel, and the various navigation rolls anyway.
>>95858887I play a considerable amount of games, which is why I feel bad for anyone who's trapped in a shit one.
Not even talking about system here, because that's often just a secondary concern. It's how people run games that make them shit, and man do you not know the first thing about running games. The way you leap to imagining that if people don't play exactly like you do that must mean they're railroading is probably the biggest sign of that.
>>95858900>Something that takes 3 rolls and less than 5 minutes of time INCLUDING DIALOGUE as part of traveling isn't a grind. You would be rolling for random encounters, giving the players space to RP during travel, and the various navigation rolls anyway.No-no, you don't understand, the DM electric taped his players to their seats, read the entire book cover to cover aloud then raped one of them with a frozen kipper for daring to protest being forced to engage in brutal, sadistic games of fish economics against their own will
>This is what the retard actually believesMemeing on him aside, he still hasn't told us what makes 'good gameplay' in his eyes or an interesting/not boring/not shit/rah-rah-roo game.
>>95858923>I play a considerable amount of gamesGreat then you can tell us what makes a good game session at your table.
Go on. Get to it.
Time to post another in the 'Storytimes that make Fishfag Seethe' series
>>95858923>I play a considerable amount of gamesStorytime us anon, go on. That's part of the fun of RPGs isn't it? Having stories to tell from the emergent gameplay.
>>958589002-3 days of fishing, calculating storage, forming plans, negotiating prices, and so on doesn't sound like just five minutes, especially if we're talking about ACKS were even traveling down the road takes more than 3 rolls.
And, all to produce a pretty nothing story with an overall point of "If you use the charts in this book, expect a total waste of time."
Here's something that happens fairly regularly in my own games that he's really gonna hate.
>party stays in town for several days
>bard performs in the inn every night to cover the party's expenses
>bard roleplays the performance (not everything, just telling us which of his songs he does, and how he hams it up, little stuff like that - and yes, the bard has a song list)
>during performance, fighter tries to get people people drunk, buying a round or two and having drinking contests
>when the scene gets suitably drunken, if it does (which we base on some rolls from the bard and the fighter), the thief begins making rounds doing some pickpocketing, or cheating at tavern games
>the cleric turns a blind eye, and usually goes to the local temple or stays in his room
>total profits: a dozen or a dozen and half gold, counting the expenses the performance covers
>time taken: 20-30 minutes of real time
>fun had: often extraordinary and priceless
This is despite the fact that the party knows of a half dozen or so adventuring locations or opportunities that are obviously more lucrative.
>>95858951>ACKS is what convinced me that modern D&D is shit on a shingle.This is revolting to me because it means the OP of that screenshot had a complete lack of aesthetic taste. Made my throat actually tense up as I got queasy. The very reason I avoid ACKS, not anything to do with it mechanically, is probably part of what drew that guy to it over other OSR games.
I read a bit further and I'm happy he saw the light but that just tanked my faith in contemporary TTRPG gamers even lower than it was.
>>95858972>and yes, the bard has a song listNow that's an idea. Items for performance as treasure. Not instruments - songs, poems, sagas, compositions...
Why should the MU get all the fun of building a tome from weird knowledge? Obviously this would be pure gold-value for the original and wouldn't have any statistical effects (outside of edge cases) but it seems like something fun to add to treasure tables even if there's no bard in the group.
>>95858952One time, I had a shit GM who ran a very shit system, I forget what it was. I forget most of the campaign, actually, because it was so fucking generic, holy shit. Everything felt so uninspired and unimaginative, like everything was just randomly generated or some shit.
Anyway, the one thing I remember is that in the middle of some plot shit he was dragging us through, each of us pretending to care, he starts rolling on tables to tell us we're in a high faggot density zone. Just piles of sticks everywhere, waiting to be picked up and sold. Not sure if it was actually faggots, but no one in the group really cared. One guy just said "okay, we pick up the faggots and sell them", and the GM was all "No no no, you can't just sell them. Look. Look at this chart."
An hour later, we had turned the faggots into charcoal. and the GM was smiling ear-to-ear, so fucking pleased with himself. Honestly, I'd have preferred just stumbling upon a treasure chest filled with gold in that forest and saved us all the trouble and it wouldn't have made any real difference. The only reason I remember the event at all was because during that hour one player snuck out, fucked the GM's mom right in her ass on his bed, and left the shit-covered condom inside of the GM's pillowcase. He came back just in time for the GM to proudly tell us how much gold we had made, and he was just "You're STILL talking about those faggots?"
>>95858676>imagine a dungeon that nets you 10gp and 10xp, and a hotdog stall, which for some quirk of the system, nets you 20gp and 20xpI said 2e/3e/5e. In those system, the XP I get are unrelated to the treasure I retrieve: I get whatever XP the DM decides to give me.
>>95859048You are in the wrong thread.
>>95858972Hard to imagine someone's gonna hate tl;dr.
>He's such a fucking no games that he can't even make up a god damn story to pretend he's got a group or a game ongoing, instead he just resorts to absolute seething over being called out
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_uWxu4DvYpc
>>95859068>salty bitch doesn't like parody when he's the jokeOh, poor baby.
>>95859068>Haha i remember this gif, brian blessed is a huge ham>Wait, is he dead?>No! BRIAN'S ALIVE! HAHA>But fucking 88>his wife died 2 years ago>has had a pacemaker for 10 yearsAw man... that's bittersweet.
>>95859064>You are in the wrong thread.I was replying to a post that said:
>>95858461>Imagine a game where going into a dungeon is a risky endeavor, but nets you only 10 gold.And I presumed by "game" you/they meant a system, like 2e, 3e, or 5e. I agree that they're off-topic, but that's what the question asked.
Unless by "game" they meant "campaign" and talking about dungeon stocking? That would be retarded, it goes against the stocking rules in the OSR editions.
>No-no, the reason I can't give you a sincere answer is because I'm totes parodying you, it's satire, not because I don't have one.
>I totally have games, they're behind this curtain, no you can't look at them and I still won't tell you what a good session looks like in my eyes
Man, I don't even have to pontificate at this point.
Everyone can see you for what you are.
>>95859098I got my first pacemaker at 30 :(
>>95859101Oh, you replied to the wrong post. No big deal.
But yes he was referring to "campaign," because he has dug himself in and each time his claims are reasonably, logically countered he pogosticks to "examples" that are increasingly disconnected from how these things actually work.
>>95859116What part of you being a cunt makes you think you deserve a sincere story?
You should already know my stories are worth their weight in gold. You want one, you're going to have to beg, and I mean really beg. Apologize for being a little bitch, photo of you kowtowing, the whole works.
>>95859142Do you genuinely not understand how examples work?
>Once a month go over to a friend's house to play AD&D
>Me and three other people go over there to play all day
>Always have a good time. We follow his rules, as it's his house and he's DM
>Always clean up after ourselves and also buy him pizza/soda/snacks
>Been doing this for a couple years now
>After last game, suddenly get a really angry text from him
>"I'M DISGUSTED THAT YOU ALL WOULD LEAVE MY HOUSE IN SUCH A MESS! THERE WAS TRASH EVERYWHERE AND YOU DIDN'T EVEN TAKE THE TRASH OR RECYCLING OUT!"
>Confused as fuck because we always take the last couple of minutes of each session to clean up after ourselves. I was the last one to leave this time, and I saw that there wasn't a mess at all. I think there may have been one napkin left out on the table?
>On top of this, we have never taken the trash or recycle out before, and I honestly don't even know where his trash or dumpster is...
>Threatens that we should go find somewhere else to game if we're going to be like that
>Then fifteen minutes later he sends me a message saying that he's sorry and he didn't mean it
I wish people in the tabletop gaming hobby weren't so fucking autistic.
>>95859237Talk to him in private, ask him what he's really upset about. Something is bothering him and he doesn't have a way to vent it otherwise.
I know it's not easy to do, but it'll be worth it if he's your bro.
>>95859044Three people had a good evening, I think that's a win.
>>95859252You know what... Instead of talking shit about him on an anonymous message board, I should actually go talk to him about it. It's been really fun and convenient to play with the dude, and who else in the area is playing OSR stuff right now? I'll suck it up and go talk to him.
>>95859274Good man, let me know if I was right and helped your friendship or some shit, assuming the thread is still up when you're done and its nothing too private.
Hello, fellow obese sedentary raccoon enthusiasts. I've been working recently, as a little pet project, on an adaptation of Tom Moldvay's somewhat lesser-known AD&D clone for web browsers (HTML and CSS). The object was preservation, thus the entirety of the text (with few brief errata) is reproduced from the finest PDF available, which is a shitty bootleg. The idea also was to build a framework so that other games with poorly searchable PDFs could be replicated in a lightweight environment for personal use.
Personally, I don't think the system is any good on its own, but it serves as a great jumping-off point for shitbrewing, if you're into that sort of thing.
Let me know what you think - pic is a screenshot of it.
https://0.0g.gg/?aa256b8797e36bca#9Z72QSLTg67eeRnsocYeLnd84uJphQ7d2tahAPokmiYh
>>95859252Yep, this is the correct answer. Something else has got bro torqued, possibly that everyone keeps calling him Fishfag on /osrg/ and he's flipping on you guys.
>>95859274Good on ya, Anon. It's the right move.
>>95859299Is this the one that he wrote Seren Ironhand for?
>>95859299>Copyright-dodge name changes for stats but with no functional differenceKinda opening up with a red flag.
Is there an elevator pitch for what makes it special? Is it special?
>>95859273Four. I fucked his mom later.
>>95859321>Is it special?>Personally, I don't think the system is any good on its ownNAYRT but I'm guessing probably not. Seems to be more in the vein of a preservation project. I can respect it.
>>95859316Yes. I've never seen it, though.
>>95859321To be fair, it was 1986 and TSR was suing everyone they could reasonably shit on. Games using the actual names for the statistics have only cropped up in the past 25 years or so with the advent of the OSR.
More to the point, no, I don't think that it's very unique or special. It was likely just Moldvay's excuse to publish adventures for AD&D. That said, I do enjoy the prospect of minimalism, and it's a fun historical exercise to look at early """retroclone""" attempts. In addition, as I mentioned, it is a much easier starting point for an AD&D-compatible shitbrew than trying to slim down actual AD&D yourself.
>>95859335I guess. I kinda have soured a bit on Moldvay's design a bit, though I still enjoy some of his adventures. It's good to be able to trace people's design evolution, to see what lessons they learned and what lessons they should have learned.
>>95859044Now that's some serious projection.
>>95859356Oh man, oh man, here it comes!
It's your mom that should be butthurt, not you.
I don't understand Fishfag angle at this point: A normal person would simply avoid a system he dislikes or try and steer the conversation into topics more amenable to him. This autist however not only seethes at the voluntary decisions of a group of players that had fun doing a small side activity before getting into mass combat, but he also seems to imply that the GM is some kind of tard-wrangler that has to steer the players away from their own impulses into what he considers proper adventuring.
This man is essentially trying to sell the idea that peak GMing is in fact helicopter-parenting your players, all while pretending that rolling on 3 tables takes more than five minutes.
>>95859405You're trying so hard to invent a story but you're very bad at telling stories.
>>95859173Yes. Better than you, apparently:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_equivalence
>>95859237>>95859274Hoping for the best because my first thought was that sounds like either a pet (or wild animal) got into the garbage, he got robbed after everyone left, or someone else (roommate? family member?) threw a fit.
>>95859299>obese sedentary raccoon enthusiasts>shitbrewing>>>/trash/ is that wayNo but in seriousness that's cool. I have no real use for this but as someone who has "digitally preserved" a strange game that was not available online, from a dead company (Rhymes with Hedgendary Chad Bencher), it's cool to see other people still putting in the work for such oddities.
>>95859352>it's a fun historical exercise to look at early """retroclone""" attemptsTortured Souls magazine from 1983 is also really cool.
There was some dude who was running an open-secret blog years ago blowing what must have been his life savings both buying obscure RPG zines and materials through strange manners and scanning them, as well as getting his hands on obscure PDFs that stopped circulating the net for years and had been "lost". He, to my understanding, the first guy who uploaded The Spawn of Fashan, long before it got the reboot.
>>95859405>he also seems to imply that the GM is some kind of tard-wrangler that has to steer the players away from their own impulses into what he considers proper adventuring.I remember one thread where he had to resort to 'No game is deep, any evidence of complexity is, in fact, kayfabe, intended to make the players think that the thing is more serious than it really is'
And whenever anyone said "That's just wrong, I use a complex system and my players really enjoy engaging with it." his only answer was 'Nuh-uh, you don't exist, you're lying, ree-'
It's fascinating watching someone who is so detached from reality. There has to be something medically wrong with him.
>>95859405>>95859431Crackpot theory:
He could be intentionally trying to keep discussion from being good here.
>Industry anti-OSR shill to make it seem like OSR people are annoying and crazyYou have noticed there are people online who sneer at the mention of OSR, yes? Spreading that sentiment keeps people locked up in the contempory-RPG tower.
>Reddit mod/enthusiastMaking the threads go to shit works towards trying to ensure people don't go to other places that have actual higher amounts of activity.
>>95859274Attanon
>>95859299I would strongly recommend markdown over html and css for preservation, portability, and editability.
file
md5: 4ac96a761c572b609a68c9175b2c2f84
๐
Well maybe if you banned the obvious troll 6-12 months ago before he was so well known that people had time to come up with a nickname, no one would be bitching about him.
How's that sound Janny-kun, you lazy, buck toothed, hot pockets inhaling, cum swilling fuckhead?
>>95859405>This man is essentially trying to sell the idea that peak GMing is in fact helicopter-parenting your players, all while pretending that rolling on 3 tables takes more than five minutes.It's almost like his favourite edition is AD&D 2e and his favourite settings are the AD&D 2e ones, railroads and metaplot and all.
>>95859479They need to get a rangeban on you to finally leave us in peace.
Getting into AD&D 2e, what pdfs are best for reading? Got the player's and GM's guide already
>>95859352>To be fair, it was 1986 and TSR was suing everyone they could reasonably shit on.Gygax set that precedent. Legal shit and RPGs should never mix.
>>95858122 (OP)>Favorite marine monster?I am not sure what my favorite is as I don't spend that much time underwater but the turtle dragon is pretty cool dragon variant.
>>95859532The worst bit is that they were playing with fire but didn't actually get burned. Their only "correct" lawsuits were about technical business deals done in scummy ways. The rest they actually stood to lose, but they lawfare'd their opponents into until they went insolvent, gave up and handed TSR their IPs.
>>95859529You'll find all the info you need to get started with OSR in the n00b guide:
>>95858163
>>95859580That n00b guide is total shit. Did you make it?
>>95859529>>95859580More direct link:
https://archive.4plebs.org/tg/thread/94900559/#q94900568
>>95859589No, Swissfag did. I did provide feedback while it was being put together, though. Several other Anons did. It's pretty good.
I love economics and I love fishing, sounds like ACKS is the system for me, hoohoo!
>>95859622Swissfag, it's awful. More a trap then a guide.
>>95859589Every time someone mentions the n00b guide (You) throw a tantrum in an attempt to shit up the thread. Multiple Anons have said that they've used it to get started. Sounds like a good thing to me.
>>95859580>>95859610Thanks anons. Was gonna mention that the guy saying it's total shit isn't me, but it seems you can already tell
>>95859252>>95859287>>95859415>>95859471He thanked me for reaching out. I apologized if we really did leave his place a mess. He said that he was really just mad that we all seemed to vacate so fast. It sounds like he has some other private stuff going on in his personal life. I thanked him for providing a place for us to play and I told him I'll stay and make sure everything is properly cleaned in the future.
>>95859694I'm not surprised other people have complained about it, I'm not the first. Likely not the last either.
I'll drop it for now because you seem testy, but yikes.
>>95859734>it sounds like he has some other private stuff going on in his personal lifeOh yea I have a player at my table who gets pretty upset if a session is missed or cut short, because of it being a big break from work/family stress at the end of the week.
I hope things cool off for him, sounds like he's having a hard time.
I like the fishman pic in op lol!
Any good OSR for both adventure and economic side ventures?
>>95859746>I'll drop it for now because you seem testy, but yikes.I wish I had gold to award you!
>>95859734Well done! Thanks for the update.
>>95859622I want to send love to Swissfag and all the other Anons who are keeping this general alive and preserving its legacy, despite all the difficulties. These days I've been appreciating you all more and more. Also love Turkfag, Reversefag, all the FAGfags, even PunditFAGfag and Pyramidfag and ObeseRaccoonFag and flaviofag and and rhombicfag and Holmesfag and ChainmailFag and DeathTaxFag and CazzoFigaFag. We've had our differences and fights, but I love you all.
And love Bytee as well, of course.
The /osrg/ tradition will prevail, I'm sure.
>Wanna join in on shitting on ShadowDark
>It's basically my house rules for B/X, almost EXACTLY...
>>95859867>I want to send love to Swissfag and all the other Anons who are keeping this general alive and preserving its legacy, despite all the difficulties. These days I've been appreciating you all more and more. Also love Turkfag, Reversefag, all the FAGfags, even PunditFAGfag and Pyramidfag and ObeseRaccoonFag and flaviofag and and rhombicfag and Holmesfag and ChainmailFag and DeathTaxFag and CazzoFigaFag. We've had our differences and fights, but I love you all.>And love Bytee as well, of course.>The /osrg/ tradition will prevail, I'm sure.Forgot the image.
I love traditional tabletop games like ACKS that let you slow down and enjoy the little things!
What's everyone's favorite non-productive downtime activity?
>>95859466Makes sense desu. I think he's a reddit mod / user. He constantly complains that we don't allow 2e, while simultaneously crying about how acks is bad because macris is a nazi (but acks is totally banned on reddit for being a scam kickstarter)
Sounds like typical psychotic obsessive behavior
>>95859529Game is off topic actually, try /2eg/ or /todd/
>>95859867On behalf of DungeonCrawlFrens, I RPGpundit announce a toast, to /osrg/, and the first eleven years of dungeons and dragons!
Is "Outdoor Survival: A Game about Wilderness Skills" the book with the best rules for hex crawling and wilderness exploration/inventory management?
>>95859529I would take a look at the setting books
packing some stuff up to move, and I found this old dungeon map in a desk. It was keyed once, but I have no idea where the key pages went. Some features of the dungeon included:
>A kind mutant that lived outside the dungeon and herded sheep. He'd give the players clues and hints on things to look out for on the first floor
>An ogre who was stealing food from the other dungeon inhabitants
>A rat-man bathhouse
>A room with a giant crystal orb that shot color spray lasers out and confused characters into attacking one another
>A two headed boy that collected books and was building a library, For every book that the players brought him, he'd trade a clue to where they could find treasure or magic items
>A tomb of a Dwarf ghost
>A sexy vampire lady that had a zombie knight that was basically invincible and had to be dismembered or restrained rather than "killed"
>A set of mine carts that worked on a powered rail.
>>95859529Monstrous Manual is obvious, and I think it's actually one of the better MMs. Really nice art. Lots with that watercolor look.
>>95859529Jumping off this, anyone got spelljammer setting pdfs? Can't find any in the share thread
>>95860536Ask in a 2nd ed thread, i.e. not here.
>>95859529The Complete Railroader's Handbook is up there.
>>95859471>markdown over html and cssWhy is this? My reasoning for choosing a single .html file was to enable it to be viewed on any device which has a web browser rather than relying on external frameworks to render the markdown properly. Plus, if you ask me, it's more extensible. You'll find that the file I've put together has a light and dark mode, has a responsive ToC, and displays reasonably well on virtually any resolution (including mobile). It's my understanding that with a single .md file, you'd be relying heavily on the renderer for a lot of those more "heavyweight" features. I'm making a compromise for a better user experience.
Might be verging into off-topic territory, so I'll leave it there. I believe my reasoning is sound. You can always convert it to markdown if you want :P
>>95860630It's just one of these cases I think.
Maybe he wants to port it into obsidian or something.
>>95860536I think just about every D&D book ever made can be found via name+pdf on google.
We're really living in a golden age. Especially because the prices on physical copies get silly sometimes.
>>95860652>We're really living in a golden ageNo... the golden age was when anything could be found with
>name+pdf intite:index of
>>95860536>>95860551 If you follow the path to the land of OSR PDFs you will find a bunch of 2e stuff.
>>95860397The 2e MM is my core nostalgia ttrpg memory. Would spend hours reading it at my buddyโs house when we wouldnโt be playing the game. Inspired me to make art myself
What are your favorite weebworld modules/dungeons/adventure sites/whatever you wanna call 'ems? I'm looking for content with which to populate a small "war-torn horrific nightmare Sengoku Japan, Dark Fantasyland" hexcrawl I'm going to run for a month or two in the wake of running Stonehell for two years. Cursed castles, haunted wells, destroyed towns, ideally that kind of thing.
Isnโt acks2 supposed to be on sale post-kickstarter this week ?
>>95860943Red Tide from Crawford might have some stuff to steal.
>>95860989Does Red Tide actually have adventure material printed? All I'm aware of is the book itself which does have loads of tables for making stuff.
>>95860891I can't draw for shit and am not inclined to learn, but if I were, I would hero-worship Tony DiTerlizzi and hard.
>>95860943>running Stonehell for two yearsHow deep did your players get?
>>95858704>WHY>ARE>YOU>ONLY>PUTTING>10>GP>IN>A>DUNGEON?The dungeon was stocked using BFRPG tables.
>>95858972>bardMust be a high level game if there are characters with 12+levels under their belt.
>>95860980Soon tm. Waiting on the last of the backer books to go out. Last wave is in the final stretch.
>>95861760Could be playing Disneywood in which case it's a base class.
>>95859028At the risk of things going to shit what does 'aesthetic taste' look like and what do you recommend?
>>95859529>>95860182>>95860397Off-topic. Take this discussion to another thread.
>>95860630>Why is this?Because editing html and porting it to any other format is a huge pain in the ass, while markdown converts to html, pdf, latex, ebook, mobi, and any other format trivially.
You can have the source text in markdown available for download, and generate the html and css from the markdown.
The other way around doesn't work as well because HTML+CSS are very feature-heavy and idiosyncratic, so conversion to other formats invariably leads to severe formatting issues.
>>95860642>It's just one of these cases I thinkLol, no.
Markdown has been a standard for decades. There's dozens of markdown editors. Not the same can be said about HTML editors.
All documentation in github is in markdown. A bunch of RPGs have been released as markdown, including ACKS, Book of War, OSE, the 5e SRD, and so on...
Practically nobody releases books or documentation or RPG rules as html. They can use html to display them on the web, but if they want to enable people to edit it, they'll use markdown.
>>95859890>>95860044Love you all back! Keep playing and fighting and keeping /osrg/ the best public OSR community.
>>95859875I don't like the abstracted movement I guess.
>>95859841>Any good OSR for both adventure and economic side ventures?I would recommend B/X as your core rules and adding elements from ACKS as needed. That's what I do, at least.
>>95861835I think the "Near" "Far" stuff is just fundamentally misaligned with how they are going to be used at the table. You ultimately come to the question of "Well how near is "Near" and considering the things that can be done when something is near it eventually comes to represent a discrete unit. You don't get any true benefit from that sort of abstraction then you would just using a measurement system, imperial or metric, to describe the world around you.
I think it stems from people thinking that keeping track of any number is bad and that they need to minimise it, or they just got upset that at one point they could move 15 ft and the goblin they wanted to stab was 20ft away.
>>95860009>What's everyone's favorite non-productive downtime activity?>non-productive Carousing, maybe?
>>95861801>Markdown has been a standard for decades. There's dozens of markdown editors. Not the same can be said about HTML editors.HTML was introduced in 1993 and has been standardised since 1995. Markdown is from 2004, 21 years later no standard has yet been released.
There are dozens of HTML editors, whether WYSIWIG or WYSIWYM. Even Microsoft Office supports HTML editing.
vim and emacs edit markdown, but then again text editors edit HTML too.
>HTML+CSS are very feature-heavy and idiosyncraticSince the guy who suggested it isn't saying
>let's make a work of ergodic literaturebut is envisioning a simple file
>to be viewed on any device which has a web browser your statement carries about as much weight as a snowflake.
>All documentation in github is in markdownWhich requires extra parsing, and it's not standard markdown, which marks down your statement about standardisation as a lie. Meanwhile, if you're going to list places that use markdown you better not leave off reddit. In case you haven't figured it out yet, 4chan doesn't look too kindly on reddit.
>>95860009>What's everyone's favorite non-productive downtime activity?Non-productive? That would have to be the janny getting to the point that he's now deleting links to the noob guide and posts praising the /osrg/ community just for *implying* that 2e is off topic here. Amazing stuff.
>>95861614>Tony DiTerlizzihis early work is really unique, like a mix between professional and outsider.
>>95862139>HTML was introduced in 1993Anon wasn't saying that markdown was introduced before HTML, he was saying that suggesting markdown isn't inventing a new standard per the XKCD comic that you (or another Anon) posted here:
>>95861801>In case you haven't figured it out yet, 4chan doesn't look too kindly on reddit.So we shouldn't use markdown because reddit uses it.
>Since the guy who suggested it isn't saying [...]Yeah, but he was also saying:
>>95859299>Personally, I don't think the system is any good on its own, but it serves as a great jumping-off point for shitbrewing, if you're into that sort of thing.If you want to enable "shitbrewing", I also think that markdown is a better option because it's more easily converted to other formats.
>>95861893Love you all back, OSR-enjoying Anons!
>>95859574>to crush your enemies>see them driven before you>and to hear the lamentations of the Gygax-hatersPretty Conan and oldschool, if you ask me
>>95861836ACKS rules are not really that great. Another anon broke down what was wrong with them, and it's like a whole two pages of "these numbers don't make any sense."
>>95862345>Another anon broke down what was wrong with them, and it's like a whole two pages of "these numbers don't make any sense."Sounds like made up bullshit. I've not encountered any problems with it, so far. What's your own experience with it?
>>95862365Awful. Probably won't ever touch it again.
>>95862426>Here's me being retarded over ACKS in another thread, see, I'm right!>Actually that's all bullshit and the book says to->SHILL, SHILL, SHILLLmao
>>95862652You necromanced that thread just to start an argument with people outside? Are you okay?
>>95862683>Me bringing up that thread as proof I'm right is fine. Anyone replying to it? That's weird.I'd ask if you are but we both know you're not.
>>95862694Proof that it wasn't made up, not that it's "right." Are you okay?
>>95862704Ohh, my mistake, so you brought it up because it was a 'break down' that was absolutely bullshit and irrelevant?
>ACKS rules are not really that great. Another anon broke down what was wrong with them, and it's like a whole two pages of "these numbers don't make any sense."Now I see, what you meant by 'what's wrong with them' is 'that has nothing to do with my claims that ACKS isn't that good' and 'Big failings' is code for 'I'm a retard, please ignore me'
It's alright anon, we all know you're a retard and wrong already.
>over 33% posts removed already
Other anon was right, Reddit has less censorship. Amusing how far the worst people we have never met go.
The handles and emails of the /the/ janitorial and moderation are easily searchable post sharty.
>>95862781>Reddit has less censorship.And it's more transparent censorship. Plebbit mods have the intellectual honesty to say to your face:
>We're banning all discussion of Macris here, and "AD&D" 2e is on-topic here.And they do this on the subplebbits that they have created, so fair enough. If we were on plebbit, we could just create our own space and run it the way we like.
Here, instead, we have the powers that be hounding us with troll and sockpuppet posts, on a general that WE have created, to take it over from us and transform it into something else. Because they have tried dozens of times to create their own general, failed every single time, so the only thing they can hope to do is STEAL this one.
Shameful.
...This is an act? Or is he actually neurotic?
>>95862213His art reminds me of Rebecca Guay. Or Raita. Most commercial artists get brow-beaten by art directors and treated like contracted employees, while a few go in, do whatever they want, and leave a note that says "you're welcome."
I wish modern games let more artists be like that. I think Reynolds got a free pass with Pathfinder, but his art felt very tied down from the start. Old game art just has the special extra sense of freedom.
>>95862857Ridiculous, really.
>>95862781Did you recognise any names or handles?
Why is OSR play a landline topic on /tg/ outside of the general?
>>95864289"OSR is disliked outside this general" is the new purity spiral.
>>95864332But is it? Even people in these threads can see there is something wrong here when there are stupid fucks who throws fits whenever 2e comes up (or even when no one says anything about 2e) and there a many thread flame war about fish. Even for /tg/ this is not normal.
>>95864530>when there are stupid fucks who throws fits whenever 2e comes upAD&D 2e has always been off-topic here, as the OP says.
The fits are due to the fact that there's ONE troll known as fishfag/2etard who's been spending years of his life spamming 2e on this board, and janitors delete every single comment pointing out that 2e is off-topic and leave the 2e spam up.
>Even for /tg/ this is not normal.Agreed, but what's the cause? Janitors don't have a goal to topic-shift other generals, but they've been trying to topic-shift this one since fishfag/2etard came up coincidence? I think not. The exact same thing would happen if they tried to impose discussion about D&D 5e on the GURPS general.
The whole drama could be avoided if they just banned that ONE troll. Instead of the whole /osrg/ general. This general is perfectly civil and functional when that ONE troll is not around.
>>95864530>Even for /tg/ this is not normal.seems normal to me
moderation allows and often encourages posters with hateboners
SotDL threads got worthless idiotposted off the board basically
>>95864611Yes, you are one of those stupid fucks. No point reading the rest of your dumb post.
>>95864646Same with Savage Worlds
>>95864646Moderation when it comes to these threads just wipes most if not all of the posts on both side of the argument.
>>95864289>Obvious false flag tout is obvious>>95864735Fishfag=2etard resisted barely one hour before taking his mask off.
>>95864646>>95864738Out of the loop. What happened with Savage Worlds and SotDL?
>>95864762>Moderation wipes most if not all of the posts on both side of the argument.Not here, no.
>>95864768Yes yes, you are brain dead and that is why you think everyone you don't like is just one person. I did not say anything about taking a side in the fish thing.
>>95864768Please just fuck off already.
>>95864611The mods already tried solving the drama by banning one troll, but you keep ban evading.
>>95864768Man, even if we know that's the case, don't take the bait or give him the chance to start shit again.
I know it's hard given how overt his retardation is.
But by this point everyone is aware of the situation and starving him is the best option.
>>95864836>overt his retardation is.That just you and
>>95864768 kid.
The smart thing to do is stop shitting your pants when 2e comes up and let people talk about things.
>>95864836The samefagging you do is literally insane.
>>95864919>Samefagging to disagree with yourselfAlright, lay it out for me. I want to hear what kind of 5D chess you think I'm up to.
This is the last (you) out of me you're getting
>>95861760The AD&D bard is crap.
>>95861776>Could be playing Disneywood in which case it's a base class.I made a Bard class for my group.
I actually prefer the 2e PHB to the 1e one, and I ate it when 2e is used to shit up this thread.
I actually prefer the 2e PHB to the 1e one, and I hate it when 2e is used to shit up this thread.
>>958648822e is off-topic here. Get over it and make your own thread for it, fishfag.
>>95864985I'm neutral towards 2e honestly. It's got some really nice settings.
But it doesn't belong in /orsg/
>>95862857>Here, instead, we have the powers that be hounding us with troll and sockpuppet posts, on a general that WE have created, to take it over from us and transform it into something else. Because they have tried dozens of times to create their own general, failed every single time, so the only thing they can hope to do is STEAL this one.I don't think they even want to steal this general as such, I think they want to either destroy the general in revenge for Caveman getting outed or some such perceived crime against troondom, or else they want to memoryhole the real definition of OSR and have it mean their wanky shit everywhere. I'm pretty sure if we restarted this general under a different name with a clearer OP we'd have the same stupid shit happening there, or the OP would just get removed every time it was posted. They don't really care about 2e for example, 2e is just a strat, just like /todd/ was a strat, and so on. Fishfag specifically might be genuinely asshurt about ACKS, he comes off as way too spergy and actually invested, but if any other troll cares about ACKS (and I'm not even sure this is true) it's just because they want to enforce the plebbit's ban on discussing Macris and Zak in other venues that aren't the plebbit. (Remember how links to https://gwern.net/doc/psychiatry/2014-01-25-cliobelleweisman-theworstpeopleyouhavenevermetdanddonlineharassment.html kept getting insta-deleted because it's proof?)
TL;DR I don't even think these people care enough about OSR or games in general to want to take over our general and then post in it.
>>95864991Wrong and you need to shut up. Your stupid faggotry is why these threads have gone down the crapper.
>>95864836The problem is that if we just let him post his 2e shit and ignore it, eventually ignorant or malicious new posters will arrive and also post about it thinking it's on topic. Ignoring it is giving in to the thread sliding, unfortunately. Now, if the jannying were working properly so we could report 2eposting for being off-topic and have the posts reliably deleted your solution would work fine, but unfortunately that's not the situation we're in.
>>95864999Not that anon. Also, witnessed.
I am not deeply versed in the lore of /osrg/, so who is Caveman and what was he outed as/for?
>>95865031He's right. 2e IS off topic here.
>>95864289It may come down to this.
>less emphasis on linear adventures and overarching meta-plots and a greater emphasis on player agency.This is kinda nonsense, and comes from an elitist attitude where old D&D is better not because of a real reason, but because apparently all the kids want to do is play railroading adventures and that's all the newer systems can do. Ignoring the dozens of linear OD&D adventures, of course. And ignoring how newer games discourage railroading with the hindsight of decades. And, ignoring how railroading is a matter of the DM, not the system.
I've seen idiots start fights over OSR by complaining about "storyshit" and "storyfags", even in this general. And, it's that kind of posturing that's gotten under people's skin. Telling people that the systems they play have a less emphasis on player agency is just being antagonistic, and opening up a ridiculous argument with no possible conclusion except whoever started it earning a big pile of hate, especially from people who like the game/games he's decided to drag into the mud by forcing them into a conflict they don't belong in.
>>95864999Back when cavegirl was posts this butthurt about 2e did not exist. Hell, back then we talked about all kind of stuff without issue.
>>95865038>t. someone dumb and wrong.
>>95865031No, he's right and you're wrong. 2e is off-topic because it's not OSR.
>>95865035Caveman was a namefag posting under the alias of Cavegirl, who everyone knew was a tranny from the shit he mentioned about himself but we shut up about it because it wasn't relevant and he actually made some pretty good stuff. Eventually though he started to go the way of all namefags, shitting up the thread with ego stuff, and someone pointed out that he was a troon. This cracked his brain and he "left" the general but also started to troll it incessantly in his honnible butthurt. He's one of the people mentioned in
>>95864999>https://gwern.net/doc/psychiatry/2014-01-25-cliobelleweisman-theworstpeopleyouhavenevermetdanddonlineharassment.htmlas being an elfgame psycho.
>>95865054Not true. The tone was a lot comfier but that's simply because it could be. When some newfriend brought up 2e we explained in a friendly way why it wasn't OSR and the newfriend accepted this in the same spirit. There was no aggro trolling about it, yes, but 2e was still clearly demarcated as outside the OSR.
>>95865066You would not know what is OSR if it hit your stupid face.
>>95865077>weYou mean you.
>>95865095No, I mean all of us, the /osrg/ community. Get mad, stay mad, die mad.
>>95865077Unlike you I was there and back then we talked about 2e and other things without morons telling us to leave. Back then the FOE meme and stuff like it was just joke.
>>95865103You do not speak for anyone but yourself. You certainly don't speak for me.
Have any of you guys ever played (or still actively play) D&D on Tabletop Simulator? It seems a lot more like what I would want from a vtt than foundry or roll20 or any of that stuff. Just some dice that you can roll, maybe minis you can move, and that's it.
If it's bad, WHY is it bad?
>>95865109>Unlike you I was thereLmao. I've been here since the very first /osrg/. Actually before that, I think. The first couple threads weren't called OSR generals, they were just OSR threads.
>Back then the FOE meme and stuff like it was just joke.The FOE meme is a joke now, Anon. Do you have a brain problem situation? Are you mentally underdeveloped?
I pine for the good old days of quality trolls, like True AD&Dโข.
>>95865126Personally I don't like to play online at all, so maybe I shouldn't be answering this question, but I can't recall seeing anyone say Tabletop Simulator is bad. If you prefer it, just use it?
I am more and more convinced that the reason he uses such grade school level insults ad nauseam, without any variation or substance, along with his rabid like for off-topic games and refusal to acknowledge what is off topic, combined with his inability to actually string together normal coherence sentences, should all be viewed as evidence that he is actually esl, and most likely suffering from some type of developmental disability or brain damage (or an actual petulant child)
>>95865136You say yet you post like a dumb newfag who is probably underage too
>Are you mentally underdeveloped?Nope and you can tell that as I am not making your posts.
>>95865152>most likely suffering from some type of developmental disability or brain damage (or an actual petulant child)ยฟPor que no los dos?
>>95865103If there are people here disagreeing with your posts then your claim that everyone agrees with you is wrong
>>95865126if all you want is dice to roll and minis to move, it's great. I love it for that, it's my preferred vtt for non-osr play specifically for that purpose. the only weird mod shit I ever use is the initiative tracker/roller
but for osr, if you want your players to do mapping though it is terrible. the drawing tools on it are useless and break half the time, and going between whole saved tables to save drawn lines basically doesn't work at all
>>95865171>I do not grasp the concept of time, with the past being a potentially different situation than the present
>>95865152There is a irony to you talking about grade school when you are throwing a fit because people are not posting the way you want.
>>95865154Just so you jnow, endlessly repeating the exact same insults that an eight year old would come up with on the schoolyard, doesn't do anything to convince people that you are anything but a blight on this general.
>>95865171It's literally just you, and it always has it's literally just you, and it always has been.
>>95864827I'm really wondering where you get this information from, how is it that you are constantly claiming about who is banned and who isn't? Are you a janitor grossly misusing his power, a wannabe janitor, or conspiring with one?
>>95865177Thanks for telling the thread you are too stupid to understand what is being said to you.
>>95865189Except this thread isn't a free-for-all, it has very clearly defined parameters of what is and is not off topic, and bringing that up has absolutely nothing to do with grade school, however your childish baby-level of seething has everything to do with it
>>95864762This isnโt true
If you post /pol/ bait or other political diatribes and get told โNo, actually, we donโt all agree that nazis good actuallyโ theyโll wipe the counter arguments but leave the obvious /pol/ outside of /pol/ up.
Thereโs obviously a patron Janny for just this thread
>>95865190You told us you got banned. Multiple times. And now you've asked the same dumb "how do you know I got banned?!" question multiple times now like you think we're stupid and don't see your posts getting deleted.
Maybe if you stuck to actually on-topic stuff and not go off-topic by trolling so much, you wouldn't get banned and then make butthurt "The jannies have no control over me! They can't ban me!" posts right after that just make them ban you again.
>>95865190Those insults you are getting are probably correct seeing you too stupid to grasp the idea that more person disagrees with you.
>>95865197Asking for talk about 2e without morons shitting up the thread is not asking for a free-for-all.
>>95865252>Asking for talk about 2e without morons shitting up the thread is not asking for a free-for-all.nta, but is it really unreasonable to ask you to take 2e somewhere else?
>>95865252>Asking for talk about 2e without morons shitting up the thread is not asking for a free-for-all.Yes it is. 2e is jsut as off-topic as anything elase, and more off-topic than a lot of other things you could "ask for". Which by the way you're not doing, this is nothing like a humble request which you accept being refused.
>>95865196After months of dealing with you, it's painfully obvious that you are mentally incapable of manifesting anything else on the screen except for telling people that they are a pee pee poo poo head, and it's gotten pitiable.
>>95865276The irony of someone like you saying that.
>>95865252Just report and ignore them. They're not able to control this thread or decide what is OSR or not, and arguing with them is just fueling their wannabe-janny fantasies.
>>95865236I don't know who you think I am, but I'm obviously not banned, I've never announced my being banned, and you pretending like you have secret information on what's going on behind the scenes is extremely suspect
>>95865252This post is very illustrative, in both how he cannot form any actual legitimate sentences or thoughts that aren't the insults an 8 year old would come up with, combined with being an obvious ESL.
It all perfectly explains why he types out baby insults in broken English
>>95865260>>958652702e is allowed here and you you can't handle that then go be dumb somewhere else
>>95865252Well since you're in charge of the thread, and you endorse all osr, why don't we talk about Shadowdark?
>>95865293No one has any reason to believe anything you say, and countless reasons to doubt you.
>>95865284Literally nobody is debating what is and is not osr, we are talking about what is and is not on topic for this thread, osrg, which is a narrow and more specific definition of osr, unless you think that we should just allow everything Reddit thinks as osr, as well?
>>95865297>'No I can't go somewhere else because I-just can't!'Didn't even insult you, cunt. All I did was ask why you can't make a 2e general.
Have fun fighting the world now and forever I suppose.
>>95865293It just looks like you have the reading ability of someone younger than 8
>>95865297You seem to be confused about where you are, 2e has been off topic here for years.
If you can't comprehend that then it's obvious that you are a brain damaged ESL and janitor wannabe
>>95865308>brain damaged ESL and janitor wannabeGood job finding yourself, kid.
>>95865301>>95865306Your desperation is fascinating.
>>95865252Yes it is, because 2e is off-topic like a host of other off-topic things. Take it to another general, as we've repeatedly asked for years.
>>95865299I'm amazed by how much their kickstarters have made. Something like over a million dollars. Not a huge fan of the game or its style myself, but kinda crazy how popular an OSR game got, and extremely quickly.
I'm guessing Shadowdark hit the space right between 5e and 5.5 and caught a good chunk of the 5e crowd.
>>95865317You are still wrong and dumb. You go to some other general.
>>95865297>2e is allowed hereIt is not, no. You're the one who should leave, especially since there's just one of you.
>>95865314Nice, the classic: "I am rubber you are glue! "
>>95865323Sorry, but that game is off topic here, please make another thread or go to a different website that has a much more liberal and broad spectrum of on topic games
>>95865303Can you fuck off and make a "fag who doesn't know what OSR is" general ? It'd help you avoid people who actually want to talk about OSR games in the OSR General.
>>95865308>2e has been off topic here for yearsSince the very beginning of the general, actually. 2e has never been on-topic here. In fact I think when the general was founded the plebbitoid drift in the meaning of "OSR" had only just started, so there wasn't even really a wider outside definition to exist in opposition to. This general just preserved its character when GSF sufferers broadened it on Reddit.
>>95865328Yes, the thread can see that 2e is allowed and that you have brain damage that makes you think that everyone agrees with you dumb posts. Hint I an not the only one who disagrees with you
>>95865337Shadowdark isn't OSR? That's literally its pitch.
>>95865331Go easy on him, it's literally the only insult he nows, judging by this thread. Li'l bro can't even beat Monkey Island.
>>95865341You aggressively and willfully choose to ignore the fact that this thread is not part of the osr seen as a whole, and has a much more narrow and specific scope. What you are advocating for is to allow any and all games that call themselves osr, including Shadow dark, and all of the other reddit osr trash.
Denying reality, and demanding that people make special accommodations for you, doesn't get you what you want.
>>95865349>t. a dumb faggot who is very new to OSR and these threads,
>>95865350>Hint I an not the only one who disagrees with youIf you want any of us to believe that, you're going to have to make at least one or two posts that don't fit the
>>95865331 mold.
>>95865359From your posts the Monkey Island you know about is the one in your pants that you spank.
As much as I despise 2eigger and his fish flavoured antics.
https://archive.4plebs.org/tg/thread/41160538/#41160538
Here is the oldest OSR thread I could find in the archives.
People are, in fact, talking about 2e in it.
It even links in the OP 'Master list of AD&D monsters'
As much as it pains me to say because it'll give him ammunition and keep him from fucking off for another year or so most likely.
He's right that 2e was here at the start.
Sorry lads.
>>95865363Sorry, but that's not how 4chan works. This isn't your private subreddit. This is the OSR general, and anyone who wants to discuss OSR games can come here.
If you want a private club, go to Reddit. Or make a "gay fags who don't know jack shit but love trolling" general in /trash/.
>>95865364>very new to OSR and these threadsLmao, he's trying it again
Do you think you can magically change reality just by repeating yourself? Actually, stupid question, of course you do since you've been trying to assert into being that 2e is OSR for literal years, even though it remains not OSR and off-topic.
>>95865368You think every post you disagree with fits the the mold that in your moldy brain.
>>95865384You would not know reality of OSR or these threads if it hit your dumb face.
>>95865350>>95865383Literally make a new thread if you don't like what the content of this one is, you are trying to completely derail and shift this General into being your own personal thread, and you are upset that nobody wants to help you
>>95865388>2etard fishfag reveals he's also "moldy bx" guyLol
>>95865380I don't know why dumb fucks like you bring up the fish thing when talking about 2e. What is the connection between the fish flame war and 2e?
I donโt know, 2e and Dragonlance just donโt have anywhere close to the same playstyle as other OSR content. Iโve read the original DMG and modules.
You roll your way out of searches and traps, you have combat focused character builds, xp for killing, modules that push you to take journeys, mechanical incompatibility with older materials, new characters donโt start at level one, detailed character backstories and a general vibe of rules handlings over rulings.
To put it another way, Iโm not sure what 2e fans would really get out of the OSR playstyle, most everyone else hangs out to learn from these various step sibling systems, 2e is just over by itself.
>>95865396You are the brain damaged ESL who cannot wrap his little brain around the fact that this specific thread has a much more narrow definition of osr than you or Reddit
>>95865380>Here is the oldest OSR thread I could find in the archives.You probably searched specifically for "/osrg/", huh? They were called "OSR General" without an abbreviation for a year+ before that.
Also, aside from one guy talking about pirating the 2e DMG that's a handful of posts discussing only the similarity of 2e skills to ACKS (ironically) and a mention of the Spell Compendiums being 2e spells.
>>95865383>This is the OSR general, and anyone who wants to discuss OSR games can come here.Yes! Correct. And 2e isn't an OSR game, thus someone who wants to discuss 2e should not come here.
>>95865421Exactly how I did it. If there is any earlier examples where 2e isn't welcome then please for the love of God, Allah and Mr Rogers, find them before that fuckhead grabs the torch and starts running based on my post.
I do not wish to aid and abet this faggot.
TR
md5: 6d299fb45eb299897f90b61955670266
๐
>>95865388>>95865396>the same asshurt formulaic toothless insults again
>>95865411Nope sorry you stupid fag, I am saying your brain has mold from lack of use. This has nothing to do with 2e, fish, or bx.
>>95865442Actually, I'm a FAG, you ESL retard.
>>95865430Try https://archive.4plebs.org/tg/thread/30829197/#q30829197 for example. Only mention of 2e is Anon pointing out that the Player's Option books suck, as a warning example.
>>95865418Nice projection.
>>95865437Yes, that is your posts.
>>95865451>"I am rubber, you are glue, you are pee pee and made of poo!"great rebuttal, esl
>>95865450Thank god for that. I retract what I said.
>>95865448Okay you are FAG fag. You are still stupid,
>>95865430>>95865450>https://archive.4plebs.org/tg/thread/32645845/#q326458452e only mentioned twice: Anon inaccurately states that LotFP is a 2e clone and is corrected; Anon accurately states that "2nd Edition [...] was a low point, as far as the actual game went".
>>95865468No one need you to green text your thoughts.
>>95865470At least I know how to read the op, and I know how many years a decade lasts :-)
You are a stinky doo doo head!
>>95865412One guy wants to make everyone he disagrees with into a single entity. He tried that by saying everyone who dislikes ACKS is his "fishfag" and everyone who likes 2e is "2efag", and now he's gone ahead and merged both those groups into a single entity because that's the level of crazy we're dealing with.
>>95865488>"I am rubber, you are glue, you are pee pee and made of poo!"Agan already? At least it's a classic!
>>95865491Your posts don't show you being able to read, dumbass.
>>95865495It's okay to feel shame and guilt like this, it's natural, but you should remember that we are all Anonymous here, and it's okay for you to admit that you are in over your head!
>>95865495Are you the fishfag? Not the anon who was conflating you and I have to say you seem more articulate than the other spergier 2e shitposter. Would you be comfortable with us calling you Fishfag and him 2epeepoopoo?
>>95865495>One guy wants to make everyone he disagrees with into a single entity. Fishfag's lack of self-awareness is a marvel of nature.
>>95865499Well, double dumbass on you!
>>95865505>Are you the fishfaghttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ws5klxbI87I
>>95865497Yes, you being brain dead is a classic in this thread. Too bad that not good for the thread.
Fuck, he just tried talking to me. Disgusting.
>>95865512Quad dumbass up your ass.
>>95865514I'd rather be brain dead and comatose than to be an ESL retard like yourself. You are probably brown too
>>95865537Your stupid posts show you are probably those things too.
>2etard and fishfag are completely different peopleFunny how one stopped raving, hooting and hollering about 2e over here just as the other starts raving, hooting and hollering about ACKS over here
>>95854879And that one stopped over there at exactly the same time that the other returned to start back up over here about 2e
Purely a 6 hour coincidence, I'm sure.
>>95865549>"I am rubber, you are glue, you are pee pee and made of poo!"Right on schedule!
>>95865425>TSR-era D&D, derived systems, and compatible content.Even if we went with your incorrect definition of what an OSR game is, it still would be derrived and compatible content. But, you're using an incorrect definition, one unique to yourself and absent from the rest of the internet, so you are doubly wrong.
>>95865558>>95865564Sorry no one in these threads can help you with your brain damage.
>>95865558People only disagree with you when you're baiting them. The question isn't where people who disagree with you are, it's a question of where you are.
>>95865567Your own personal preferences and delineations don't change the topic of this thread, or 2e being off topic.
>>95865354I don't know if you are trolling or just this ignorant, but try reading the room and using context clues
Neither will mental gymnastics or childish insults.
You're more than welcome to make a new thread or post on r/OSR
>>95865586At least being brain damaged is something that happens to you, being a brown ESL third worlder like yourself is a curse worse than anything else
>>95865567>unique to yourselfWrong! You're the one who's alone here, all the thread regulars are telling you you're off base.
>and absent from the rest of the internetWrong again! K&KA, Dragonsfoot, Melan, Prince, they and their communities all use the same definition we do. In fact, yours is confined to the subreddit and a few discords.
>>95865587>People only disagree with you when you're baiting them.My, that's a very interesting insight into how you view the world. Usually I assume people disagree with me when we have different opinions on things.
How very interesting indeed.
>>95865567You literally want to use the Reddit definition, and that's okay, but it's not going to fly in this thread, so make a different one, or accept the fact that this thread has a much more narrow scope than the broader osr
Willfully off topic here, but what makes the fish guy a fish guy specifically?
>>95865598Yes, your posts show you have those issues.
>>95865606Check the last thread in archive, it was explained there and someone posted the tale.
>>95865600Sorry, but even Dragonsfoot has 2e forums, and it's not a surprise because one of the earliest OSR games to be discussed there was C&C, and 1e and 2e have much more in common with each other than C&C.
And didn't K&KA splinter off from DF because they were tired of everyone telling them to stop bitching about 2e?
>>95865609Hello fellow redditor! My favorite OSR game is probably maze rats or d&d 3.5!!
>>95865606>Willfully off topic here, but what makes the fish guy a fish guy specifically?He once threw a tantrum about a DM using the ACKS rules to adjudicate the selling price of smoked fish that was so retarded it made him famous on the whole board.
Every single time ACKS is mentioned, he appears and starts to shit all over the thread.
In a recent thread he said that the reason we consider 2e to be off-topic here is because "obviously" 2e is a market competitor to ACKS, and so it's part of an ACKS conspiracy. So he's implicitly admitted that he's 2etard, another mythological figure that has been haunting the board for about as long as fishfag has. Coincidence? I think not.
He obviously has some kind of developmental and/or mental health disorder.
>>95865631You really do recycle the same tired arguments over and over don't you? 4chan has /mlp/ for the same reasons that Dragonsfoot has 2e forums.
>>95865589Shadowdark calls itself an OSR. It seems to be trying to be OSR in its creator's eyes, and most people don't seem to have a problem with it being in the OSR sphere. Reading the room, the only people who'd be mad or upset about this would have to be weenies.
>>95865631>even Dragonsfoot has 2e forumsRight, and that forum is separate from the real AD&D one. Just like on /tg/ you can make your on 2e thread and post there. Now fuck off.
>>95865655>A million lemmings can't be wrong.
>>95865631Well, if you want to outright admit that 2etards need their own containment board just to keep them away from the rest of us, that's on you.
I wasn't going to say anything that harsh about your paste eating ways, but since you've now admitted it.
Yes, you do need your own containment, a separate thread would be sufficient.
>>95865606Tldr
A while back a DM made a green text about how after rescuing a destroyed village, his players decided to spend some time harvesting and smoking fish, and the DM mentioned how he enjoyed that the system he was playing included rules my new show for educating the amount and value of the fish.
And then there is fishfag, a guy who hates that game so much that he will make endless angry troll posts, like he was there at the table personally and is for some reason angry about it. It's gotten to the point of being comical, because he will say that the story is an example of why the game system is bad, and then he will claim that the game system is banned from Reddit for being a scam, and then he will claim that the creator of the game is a Nazi.
It's literally just one guy using that story as a smoke screen to try and Poison the Well, because he is a brigader here from Reddit
>>95865655So you're telling me that shadowdark is on topic in this thread?
Follow up question: how long have you been coming to this thread?
>>95865642If you used your brain and not your ass when posting you would see that only reason fish stuff comes up when talking about 2e is because you bring it up.
>>95865631>didn't this other website have to create a containment zone in order to keep things on topicThis is a quintessential example of being "hoisted by your own petard".
>>95861835NTA but that's the one thing I implement in all my games since I have a really hard time keeping track of spacial relations for more than 3 characters or in non-trivial room topology, I might actually have a disorder.
>>95865674Don't forget that he tries to also make it seem like the DM forced the players to do the fish stuff, or that the players only did that because there was no other opportunities out there, etc. It's utterly hilarious. He has to create strawmen to pretend he has a point.
>>95865685If that's the case, what do you think of the fisherman shenanigans tale and ACKS 2enon?
Just a post about it'll do, doesn't even have to be positive, you can be as lukewarm and 'Fine I guess?' as you like.
Because I know for a fucking fact that Fishfag could never bring himself to say even a slightly positive word about either topic.
>>95865642You were raging about your fishfag and 2efag, which is why your pro-ACKS anti-2e stance is well known at this point. I'm kinda curious what other passion of yours will end up having its opposition become a new nemesis for you.
And no, your fishfag and your 2e are not individuals. Even in the last thread multiple people told you the story wasn't any good and then watched you fly into a fit of "FISHFAG FISHFAG" no different than you're doing now.
>>95865672>paste eating waysAnd you know all about that as shown by your posts.
>>95865685Say the line, esl!
>>95865703>Even in the last thread multiple people told you the story wasn't any good and then watched you fly into a fit of "FISHFAG FISHFAG" no different than you're doing now.Not that anon. This is a lie.
>>95865703>individualsIf that one individual did not use an extremely characteristic posting style, where he repeats the exact same lines over and over no matter what he is replying to, I would agree, but it's very clear that this particular person has outed himself
>>95865709>"I am rubber, you are glue, you are pee pee and made of poo!"yayyyyy
>>95865720Well he's an esl type, right? He probably doesn't realize that you can identify people by their rhetoric and word choice in English when it's that distinctive.
>>95865693It's not a containment zone. And, if you knew anything about OSR, it's basically impossible to keep 2e discussion seperate, in no small part because of just how much 3rd party material is both 1e and 2e compatible. 1e is more popular on DF than 2e, but 2e is more popular than many other OSR games, and is also placed in the forum hierarchy right below 1e, and above some more popular 3rd party games.
You are talking out of your ass.
>>95865702While not something I would bring up for a pro ACk post (as I said in the other thread I would go with something like hunting) It's not worth getting upset about. Making money fishing is something I can see happening as a side thing in a OSR game.
>>95865711No u and your face,
>>95865703No one claimed the story was "good", it's just an example of economic minutiae in use at the table during a session. Your personal crusade has made you blind.
>>95865674To be fair, if a game encourages you to fish over delving, theyโd certainly want to patch it as some sort of oversight I assume.
>>95865718Different anon: You're still raging right now.
>>95865744That was my first post in this thread.
>>95865720>>95865735>everyone I disagree with is the same person because I say so.
>>95865742Why are you so upset about people calling it lame then?
I can't fucking wait until you 'tards have bumped the thread above the limit with your pedantry so I can make a "behead those who insult Gary Gygax" OP for the new thread.
That's all, you may now unsubscribe from my blog.
>>95865737Dragon's foot created a containment zone to keep discussion of 2e outside of what they wanted to keep the boards focus on.
Just because you want to use a Reddit definition of osr, that doesn't actually mean you get to dictate what the thread is or is not about. If you don't like this, you are welcome to create a new thread where the subject is whatever you would like it to be, but you're going to have to learn to accept that you are playing in somebody else's sandbox.
>>95865742There were definitely people writing lengthy essays to explain how it was a story exemplifying great DMing. We've even got some of that in this thread.
Blindness is going so far in defense of a story you completely forget it's just about some fish.
>Not a single piece of system advice, critical thought, session posting, map work, or home brewing in 150+ posts
What a bright, beautiful place.
>>95865743>if I pretend like the players were forced and browbeaten into doing this, I can frame it as though it's a fault of the game system!
Sure is summer around here.
>>95865740Alright, we have at least 2 people talking about 2e in thread. Anon, I respect your position and you're not a hateful little goblinoid like fishfag.
But given the major differences between 2e and most OSR games (Settings being more robust in 2e, Hickman, the idea of metaplots, the effect Mormonism had on the game and its settings, ect), can you at least see where people are coming from when they say 2e isn't entirely OSRG relevant?
Honestly, even a 2e general would be a bit too broad, generals need to have something of a focus and even the differences between say, Dark Sun and Council of Wyrms are so radical that you could have 2 entirely separate threads on them.
Just as importantly, there's the other shit stirrer in the thread who is taking advantage of your good intentions to cause these absurd arguments that go on for hundreds of posts.
I'm asking you.
Man to man.
Homie to homie.
Can't you just make a 2e general?
It's not like you'd even get particularly decent discussion of 2e here, given the differences between it and most OSR games.
>>95865750I don't care about the story, I care about making fun of the person who uses that story as an example to work himself up into a frenzy about how what happened at that table, is a reflection on how much he hates the game itself
>>95865778I didnโt say any of that, Iโm just saying it shouldnโt be more profitable to fish than engaging with the gameplay.
>>95865757That's cool, nobody cares about your schizophrenic desires
>>95865768Shouldn't be difficult to find just one example then right?
>>95865758Regardless of your personal beliefs and headcanon, the bottom line is pretty simple. In the OSR General, OSRs are discussed, and we must accomodate people of differing opinions.
Imagine if one or two guys tried to hijack the MtG general, and declared that it wasn't for General Magic Discussion, but for Vintage and Legacy only and they even went so far as to constantly rush to make the OP just to say that. People would be pretty upset, especially if those guys screamed "VINTAGE IS THE ONLY TRUE MAGIC, ANYONE WHO BELIEVES OTHERWISE IS REDDIT."
>>95865802No one claims it is more profitable than dungeoneering. Role-playing something light and fun with your Bros is part of role playing games, not every session has to be jam-packed with action and quips. This isn't a video game, it's a social collaboration and hangout with friends.
I bet you love marvel movies
>>95865802He's not arguing with you, he's arguing with his imaginary fishfag. Don't take it personally.
>>95865805>Shouldn't be difficult to find just one example then right?>inb4 he links to that one post that went 'Yeah, this is actually a good example of world building since it makes the world feel more lived in rather than just a theme park' and claims that's the filthiest, nastiest, tongue deep rimjob in history or some shit like that.You just know what he's going to do. We all do by this point.
>>95865802You've just been hit by this guy's favorite strawmanning tactic. It doesn't matter what you actually said, he's going to argue about whatever he feels like arguing and then tell you your position when he's done
>>95865827...And he's done it again.
>The party wizard just hit level 5
Im fucking scared bros. That little shit already trivializes very encounter with web. God I fucking hate web so goddamn much.
He thinks we don't know he's fishfag.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHfiNSsqOF0
>>95865831It looks like you fucked up issuing a challenge and now are just trying to cover your ass.
All this ACKS shitter splaying lead me to take a gander at the acks2 pdfs..
Why gods did he go with the same aesthetic as his superhero game?? The acks 1 art is so much better!
>RPGHJ
>>95865807The false equivalency is strong with this one.
A closer example would be if WOTC era Pokรฉmon was allowed in the mtg thread because, at the time, it was described as โlike MTGโ because people lacked the historical perspective.
We donโt discuss pure chain mail war gaming here either, nor Arnyโs proto Megagames despite them literally being in the lineage because D&D has never been just one game and being D&D does not make something OSR.
>>95865850Send spiders at him.
>>95865855We're still waiting on you to actually bring the proof you claimed was all over the place.
>>95865827Design by exclusion is a necessary step to making an elegant and flowing game.
>>95865864If you can show me one post here, or even on reddit, confusing pokemon with mtg, I'll concede your point and say your post is less of a false equivalency.
Here, people believe 2e is OSR. No one thinks pokemon is magic.
>>95865874So about us excluding you and 2e from these threads then.
>>95865878>Here, people believe 2e is OSR.Flatly wrong. I say this as someone that likes 2e, personally.
>>958653492E has been talked about in these threads for years, you retarded newfaggot.
>>95865783You going to answer this 2eguy, or are you going to pretend you didn't see it?
>>95865881Your argument has derailed just like your mind.
>>95865783My position on what is OSR or not is can it be used with other OSR stuff with little to no change and at least a lot of 2e fits that. I think can agree that that 2e may have too much stuff for 2e general but I think you can take stuff from 2e and use in OSR content
>>95865897Oh no you don't you little bitch. We're making this thread elegant, with or without your consent.
Now get the fuck out.
>>95865892Fuck 2e and fuck you
>>95865899Alright, in that case can you meet us half way? Talk about the shit that's directly relevant to other aspects of OSR here if at all and start a 2e general.
Honestly, I like quite a lot of the 2e settings and having somewhere to talk shit about the lore and meme on what a special snowflake Rastlin was would be fun.
Seriously, if you brought that fucker to even the most critical role-ized table, you'd get at least a few raised eyebrows by the time you got to 'And all 3 gods of magic personally begged me to study magic because I'd be so good at it!'
>>95865896They didnโt answer
>>95865413Either
I still do not understand why they even want to be here, 2eFriends benefit nothing from any of the other discussions in this thread.
>>95865892You mean, "brought up, and the poster told to go elsewhere, because 2e is off-topic as it's always been."
>>95865889I'm not the first, last, or only person to say 2e is OSR. The statement "people here believe 2e is OSR" remains true, even if we also must admit "retards here think it isn't OSR."
And, even the dumbest retards here don't think pokemon is magic, at least not until some new dumb Secret Lair gets announced.
>>95865903>Maybe games should leave out heavily rewarded downtime activities >You must want 2e in the thread a bloo bloo blooI donโt give a shit about 2e, Iโm saying OSR play is about getting that ass down those stairs and I donโt want page bloat
I havenโt even read ACKs, Yโall the ones who described this fish shit to me and started defending it
>>95865950>Iโm saying OSR play is about getting that ass down those stairs and I donโt want page bloatSee, now this is an actual discussion we can have.
I disagree. OSR play is about what the players want to do, with a focus on their own guile over what's on their sheet and more of a sandbox feel over 'guided adventures'.
Which is why having rules for shit outside the dungeon is so useful and gives depth, texture and options. The overworld should be just as interesting as the underworld and have just as much capacity for adventure.
At least that's my view, what do you think?
Oh and I will say:
>Y'allCome on.
Have some self-respect anon.
>>95865743The game doesn't actually encourage this at all, it simply has rules for if it comes up. The players took the initiative to do the thing, the DM used the rules, the players made a nice bit of cash they used to outfit themselves for their next dungeon delve, and everyone was happy.
Then Fishfag was sad.
>>95866007>sadA very kind way of describing an 8 month (so far) tantrum
>>95865773Whenever 2efag isn't around to shitpost the place into the ground, the thread is great. It's been explained already why we have to keep actively holding his shit back. Sad, but inevitable.
I'm just gonna leave this here.
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>>95865920I am slowly working on some OSR stuff that uses 2e here and there.
>>95865807>four different people point out to him that 2e on Dragonsfoot is a containment board so he can't keep pretending it's just a single evil anon>falls back on muh headcanon and just repeats that "in the OSR general, OSRs are discussed" as if everyone in the thread doesn't already know that 2e is not OSR and is thus off-topic
>>95865970I respectfully disagree, that ass better be down those stairs, but I feel we can agree that there are atleast going to be niche situations where, say, sabotaging an enemyโs fishing operation may become necessary, I just think itโs the HP argument again where youโre putting it in the rule book because itโs part of what they should be doing.
Also thereโs literally no replacement word for yโall. I used it appropriately.
>>95865850Have you tried having the enemy attack the M-U? Or just ensuring that they don't only get into two fights each dungeon trip?
>>95865924>I don't know what is going on in the thread.
>>95865878>Here, people believe 2e is OSR.Nobody believes that, lmao
>>95866056>Also thereโs literally no replacement word for yโall. I used it appropriately.'You lot'.
Know what, I'd rather have 'You fuckers' over 'Y'all' these days.
>You fuckers are the ones who described this fish shit to me and started defending it.With that said, I get where you're coming from but eventually you have to expand beyond the dungeon.
Hell, the oldest games out there eventually went to 'And now you're big dick kings and shit'
>>95865892>2E has been talked about in these threads for yearsNo it hasn't. Also, you wrote the same reply to Anon twice.
>>95865896>>95865924Remember in that previous thread when anons asked him half a dozen times why he even wanted to be part of the general and he never even tried to answer?
>>95866073Whatโs your problem with yโall? Itโs the least offensive or stupid piece of slang from any particular American region and it serves a good purpose.
>>95865950>I donโt give a shit about 2e, Iโm saying OSR play is about getting that ass down those stairs and I donโt want page bloatRespectable taste in itself, but ACKS is written for people who want a fuller ruleset for a wider variety of side activities (and don't mind a certain amount of autism in pursuit of that). You probably would not like it, and I wouldn't recommend the game to someone like you. (I'm a thorough OD&Dfag myself, so.)
>>95866114Yallfag used it.
And Yallfag is 2efag and Fishfag.
>>95866114Entirely off topic, but mainly that it's been co-opted by twitter troglodytes and Californioids in an attempt to sound casual.
>>95865856Please , the new art is so โฆ blegh. Soulless? I donโt know. Why did he do this
>>95866141Not that anon. This fact annoys me to the core of my Southern soul.
>>95866141Wow, you really are nothing but a sack of bitter hangups.
>>95865856>>95866144ACKS' art has never been good, if we're honest.
Previously someone suggested that him getting cancelled means he's stuck with just the one artist, dunno if that's true though.
>>95866124>>95866141Im going to be 100% real because I respect this thread but yโall have got to start charging rent for shit like this.
I'm trying to find a specific youtube channel where a young guy reviewed old D&D adventure modules. It wasn't CaptCorajus or any of the well known guys. Specifically, I'm looking for a video where he reviews a module where the first room is surrounded by a curtain, and the players have to pull the curtain back to find a hidden doorway to the rest of the dungeon.
Anyone know what I might be thinking of?
>>95865950This is my only post in the thread so far, but it's worth pointing out that Stonehell has a few paragraphs here and there about refining ore or selling weird art pieces you find.
Obviously the focus should be on the dungeon, but it makes the world feel more "lived-in" when you give the occasional nod to parts of the economy that don't revolve around adventurers.
>>95866297As someone pointed out in the last thread, the two closest things we have to adventurers IRL are
>Merchants>VikingsSo having rules for overworld economics fits nicely
>>95865807So we should allow all osr like reddit does, right? Troika, shadowdark, they're all "osr".
>>95866073My southern aunt says "youse" or "youse guys"
>>95866313>merchants and vikings are the closest things to adv-Holy shit that's a dumb take, even if we use the imaginary fantasy version of Vikings and not the "stomped in almost every battle they partook in" real version or assumed every merchant was Marco Polo.
>>95866313No. Conquistadores
So is the dude a bot or what? The angry childish insults strike me as very odd.
>Threads dead without infighting
Tell me about the cool secret doors youโve come up with
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>>95866313>the two closest things we have to adventurers IRL arenah. the best examples are the people since the earliest recordings of human history who've raided tombs/burial sites and stolen objects of significant importance to sell them for profit. not something like Hans Sloane but the people who pilfered the things that he ended up buying for his collection.
Is the dude a broken chatbot or what?
>>95866361>stomped in almost every battle they partook inSo vikings have gone the way of the katana and gained antiboos now, huh
>>95866488>>95866909He's genuinely probably just a sperg.
>>95866948you can blame todd for releasing skyrim three too many times for viking haters
you'll even see shit like people saying axes were useless weapons
>>95866163He's not limited to one artist, his core rules had about 20 artists but was mostly the work of two. but I do think his pool of available talent is somewhat limited.
I like the ACKS art but it's admittedly different from the truly soulful good osr art.
>>95866361It's not about being an average merchant, it's about being Marco Polo idiot.
>Vikings... stomped in almost every battle they partook in.That doesn't change anything. Do you think raiders are lauded for strategic cunning and neoplionic tier command and control? No they showed up, killed people, and took their stuff. Exactly the same thing my party did in Keep on the Boarderlands.
>>95866812At the back of a room is a sliding panel of which the concealed handle can be found by the usual methods. However it will only open in the absence of light. The door is reenforced and needs two successful open doors checks to open for average sized adventurer to fit through (although hobbits can fit through after merely one open doors check if unarmoured).
>>95866985>I swear down bruv you can get hit right inna brain pan wiv an axe, it dun do nuffin bruvkek
>150 posts pruned
Sheesh!
Whatโs a good intelligent monster race to oppose a militaristic orc encroachment. Want the players to have a monstrous parley opportunity to go against the orc forces but kobolds and gobs seem too unreliable to use
>>95867403Bug people. Ants/bees. An alien law to go against the monstrous chaos.
>>95867403Not really a race since they can't breed but the trannitors will not rest until every last osrc is dead. Oh wait you said GOOD INTELLIGENT monster.
>>95867403Kobolds are reliable if lead by a young dragon or similar. A crypt of undead that hate you but hate the orcs more wight supremacists?. Elementals lead by a Jinn. Nixies and Pixies. Giants. Vampire and his thralls. Werewolves/bears/rats. Centaurs for mighty cav charges. Medusa with a hoard of snake men at her back. Lizardmen. Griffons lead by a sphinx.
>>95866050You love to see it. Anons like you are what makes this general worth visiting.
>>95867403Alien angle: Slugmen, lizardmen, mantis men.
Other evil humanoids: Hobgoblins. They're militaristic and cunning, so they shouldn't object to an alliance of convenience if they're weaker than the more brutish orcs. Their tactical planning advantage also means they can likely use a small glass-cannon force more effectively than the orcs would and so the PC party can tip the scales more than their raw numbers might suggest.
>>95865042That's a sensible post.
>>95864289I have no idea what a "landline topic" is but outside of /tg/ OSR fans don't get off on arbitrarily limiting OSR to B/X and 1e and associated retroclones in contradiction to OSR's actual origins. Even then it's only a small portion of /osrg/ posters who get worked up about it. They're getting worked up over nothing so of course it's frowned upon by sensible people.
>>95862149>just for *implying* that 2e is off topic hereThat implication would be wrong. Read the OP
>>TSR-era D&D, derived systems, and compatible content2e is TSR era D&D.
Even if it wasn't TSR era D&D, it is derived directly from 1e which came directly from Basic which came from OD&D.
2e content is highly compatible with 1e.
Someone could add
>>but not 2eto OP but that would show up that person and everyone who wants it as special snowflakes. It would be excluding 2e completely arbitrarily because of an irrational hate boner arising from a lack of intelligence and imagination to identify the useful bits and a lack of self control about not using the bits they say they don't like when they find them.
So writing, I look forward to next thread when a special snowflake has added that.
>>95866050I would beeline for that volcano.
>>95867590>>95867647>this troll againTiresome. 2e doesn't belong here, don't try to reignite this. 2e isn't from the first decade of D&D and you know that, you've been told as much dozens of times.
I have no idea if this is even remotely the right thread but I also don't especially care:
What are some other systems with spellcasting similar to DCC? I read it recently and it was quite cool with all of the unique failure states and success levels for spells. I like gradated successes and failures. And also gonzo mutations.
I remember back in 2018 this general seemed a lot more welcoming. It felt to me more like a place to discuss the OSR tone rather than having to be specific systems. For example I took a lot of inspiration from here for my 5e game which was a great campaign. Don't worry I'm not going to try and discuss 5e here. Just seems like the OSR movement in general has become increasingly hostile and angry rather than welcoming. I still take inspiration from a lot of the core concepts even if I'm not playing the /osrg/ approved systems.
>>95867647The level of ESL in this trollpost is astronomical
>>95868060Why donโt you simply use DCCโs magic system, as I believe that and the fighterโs combat maneuver roll are highlights of the system
>>95866333I'm doubting her pedigree. Did she move down from the Northeast? That's some Boston/New Yorker shit.
Oh we are havubg the 2e talk again.
>>95868080As always it's a few number of shitheels. If truly, catastrophically disruptive assholes make up 1% of the population, when you just have like 50 people chatting about stuff you probably won't run into them. But when the group gets to be a few hundred large you're gonna have 1 or 2 and that's really all it takes. It's the reason basically every fanspace for everything turns awful after it gets big. Even heavily moderated places can't really deal with it because they can almost always just keep coming back.
>>95868238As far as I know, no, but now I'm starting to put some dots together because my mom has always used a lot of Jewish slang for some reason and we are not even remotely Jewish
>>95868339It might be true, maybe their parents were from the Northeast and it just stuck around, maybe she picked it up somewhere else as a kid, shit can happen. Where in the South is she from? If it's Florida that basically doesn't count because 90% of Florida isn't culturally Southern due to transplants.
>>95868357She's from missouri, but she's also from a Mexican family if that helps
>>95868362That's whack, language is a mystery, one must only feel pity for her for abandoning the objectively correct second-person plural readily available to her for a lesser version.
To get this back on track: languages in every system, but notably in OSR have always bugged me. It just seems like there's too many if you go the realistic route but if you go too few then it just become set dressing. I want them to matter in some way. Reaction bonuses I've played around with, I for one would respect someone more if they used "y'all" than "youse" for example, and that's just dialect. Maybe make everything a dialect and everyone is mutually intelligible but has bigger and bigger reaction penalties. Sure the elf can understand the dwarf but his fucking accent is disgusting.
I'm new and want to learn by doing with my group, please give me a short answer to pick a system: Osric or Labyrinth Lord?
>>95867647>Conveniently ignoring the first decade part.The OP says "first decade". If we wanted to include 2e, we'd have written "first three decades". 2e is off-topic here. Make your own thread for it if you want to discuss it.
>>95868276It's this. All evidence indicates there's only one 2efag, but he shits the thread up an unlimited amount, unfortunately.
>>95868579Labyrinth Lord is better if you want to learn. Normally in this thread we prefer to recommend the original Moldvay Basic, though. Labyrinth Lord doesn't really have any advantages over Moldvay in terms of teaching the game, and PDFs of B/X are abundant.
>>95868585It's funny how he even uses the same exact selective reading every time and just never acknowledges it, isn't it? Almost as funny as how you're the third anon to point out hat he's a troll, yet you wouldn't think it to look at the thread. And nothing happens to his troll post.
>>95868639Thanks.
My group has a guy with a criminal record (allegedly, I can't check) so he is very cautious about petty crime, even pirated PDFs.
Labyrinth Lord is legally free on drivethrurpg as a respectable source which is one of the reasons I was looking at that.
>>95868579Of the two I'd pick LabLord. Reference Basic Expert as needed.
Have you got a dungeon?
>>95868673Kek, well, he can't stop you from reading one on your own, right?You can learn from Moldvay and still use Lab Lord at the table if you want.
>>95865042>Telling people that the systems they play have a less emphasis on player agency is just being antagonisticEppur si muove anon. Just because something bothers you doesn't mean it's untrue.
When a system requires more foreplanning and pre-gaming on the part of the DM that immediately weights things towards being less player focused since who wants to waste their time?
If you've created something and it was a complete ball ache to do so, you're likely to use it even if you have to nudge people into it.
Be it a combat encounter, a set piece, a plot or a dungeon.
>>95868645The selective deletion of posts calling out trolls or even just *correcting* them, and leaving troll posts up is really something. I don't think I've ever been angrier in my life than I am at janitors here. (Yes, I have very lucky life.)
If someone took the leaked list of /tg/ janitors and mods and retaliated IRL by going after their jobs and reputations it would be wrong and immoral and I would be very much against it, but I wouldn't shed a single tear.
>>95868677I sort of have a dungeon. It's not in a publishable state but I have a sketched map and outline notes.
"Cellars of a wizard's tower."
Level 1: Fungus-men, potion ingredients, spoiled potions
Level 2: Animated objects, scrolls, stained glass and gems
Level 3: Imprisoned outsiders in magic circles, imprisoned troll, guardian construct. The encounter-roll here represents a what-breaks-loose roll from PCs disturbing safeties.
I'm planning to adapt it to system guidelines and roll more prepared content as I read the books.
>>95868735Okay, so, I don't know how much OSR stuff you've already read or otherwise know about, but something to be aware of is that unless these levels are of a megadungeon format, PCs will almost certainly not be able to cope with anything on level 3 by the time they get there โ and even if these are "full" levels, it'll be hairy. That's if you use standard D&D monsters, of course; you could design your own troll and demons and so on from scratch, but then that's going to be a lot of extra work.
>>95868682NTA but I don't really agree with this sentiment: it's rare for a game to be so bloated as to force the GM to only prepare what he'll then need his players to encounter. Also, player agency clearly isn't what distinguishes OSR from the rest: one can have a perfectly enjoyable sandbox experience in any good system. To me, a better OSR definition would involve mentioning
>Scoundrels facing danger, especially in the form of dungeons, for gold and adventure>Behaving not as characters in a story, nor as "builds", but as real people in a real world>Strict resource and time tracking
>>95868579ACKS
Just kidding, wait for OSRIC 3rd edition, it's gonna be more faithful compared to the previous editions.
Labyrinth Lord is pretty forgotten by everyone now... You can still use it to learn the ropes, but I'd go with OSE at this point
>>95869087Also NTA in turn, but I think you're pretty badly off base on what characterizes OSR. In particular, OSR is much more accepting than average of playing your character as just an extension of yourself, with full metaknowledge and using the PC as a playing piece. Sandbox hexcrawling is much more characteristic of OSR, even though many other styles of D&D have adopted it, more or less successfully (usually less).
>>95869521That's not player agency, that's metagaming.
Would you change the OP to say "less emphasis on in-character motivations and a greater emphasis on meta-gaming"?
>>95869620No, because I also think that a higher degree of player agency is characteristic of OSR gameplay. Especially inasmuch as the referee often provides little or no motivation for adventure besides "there's the dungeon and you level up by getting treasure". Players need to be self-driven much more than in most styles of play, the issue of passive players tanking a campaign often comes up here and in other OSR spaces.
>>95869521(I'm TAYRT, the other guy isn't.)
I'm not denying you can just play as yourself, but as far as I understand it you're still supposed to act as YOU would in that terrible world, not like the featureless pawn of a board game. At least, I'd find that dull. I'm more than willing to listen to other people's opinion on the subject to know how they feel.
>>95869639Sandbox play exists in essentially all systems, and passive players suck the life even out of non-sandbox play. And, OSR includes plenty of games/adventures that are not sandbox style.
I understand that you sort of want to go for the "sales pitch" version of what OSR is, but you're leaning a little too heavily towards "Genesis Does What Nintendon't" style advertising.
>>95869699>Sandbox play exists in essentially all systemsNTA but that's a very half-assed justification. That's like saying 'Any system can do Sci-fi'.
And down that road lies shit like D20 modern where you're trying to hammer a square peg into a round hole because 'Round holes can handle square pegs'
A tabletop system is to the campaign what a game engine is to a video game.
Yes you could 100% remake the entire campaign and plot of Crysis using RPG maker if you really wanted to.
But let's not pretend it'd be the exact same game given the mechanical limitations of the engine, at least not without tearing everything out to the point where you can't even really call it the same engine with a straight face.
>>95869669It's a matter of taste. I'm just saying it's a known style. I'm not particularly keen on it either, although I largely approve of the use of player knowledge. In a high-lethality game things get tedious if players have to pretend they don't know something because it was their previous character who discovered it.
>>95869744Conflating OSR with sandbox games is like telling people a car is a beach vacation. You can drive the car to the beach, but the car is not the beach, and other cars can reach that beach.
You might want to insist that the car is the best at reaching the beach, but that's going to cause friction with people who arrive at that beach just as easily in their own cars.
We're not really talking about comparing people in cars vs. people in golf carts, so it's not good to move with that attitude.
>>95869639>No, because I also think that a higher degree of player agency is characteristic of OSR gameplay.I wouldn't say it is. I've played plenty of OD&D and AD&D where the DM didn't really let you make any "real" decisions, just inconsequential things like which direction to move and whether you wanted to try and avoid dying or not.
Railroading takes many forms, and sometimes that's the DM putting you in a space to wander about where there's nothing of any real consequence.
>>95869797>We're not really talking about comparing people in cars vs. people in golf carts, so it's not good to move with that attitude.Yes actually we are. We're talking about entirely different methods of transport, metaphorically, since they work off different mechanical methods.
Yes you can get to the beach by cycling or hiking or your feet, but no amount of claiming 'me paddling my canoe along the main road is as good at getting there as your car, it just takes longer' is going to get you anything except 'You're being silly, why?'
I know you're going to call it a cop out but here:
https://torchless.substack.com/p/low-opinion-system-matters
Have a blog post that goes in-depth on the argument more than I could without shitting up the thread for 10-12 posts.
>>95869844>I wouldn't say it is. I've played plenty of OD&D and AD&D where the DM didn't really let you make any "real" decisionsYou're confusing things here, the systems are not identical to the OSR. It's well known that people played OD&D and AD&D in various idiosyncratic ways from the games' release, some more popular than the intended way. The old-school play style is a specific way of playing in line with the original intentions of the games' writers (primarily therefore Gygax). Both the systems and the play style are necessary for a campaign to be an OSR campaign. The systems alone are not sufficient since, as you point out, it's entirely possible to use them wrong, or if you prefer, in different ways.
>>95869797>but that's going to cause friction with people who arrive at that beach just as easily in their own carsWe don't really care if people in clunkers get mad when we say our car is better, though. What do the feelings of randos have to do with anything?
>>95869858>other systems are canoesWho's being silly?
>>95869878>Ignoring the rest of the postGo run a sandbox in FATAL if you're so sure of your convictions.
We'll wait to hear you report back.
>>95869872Because they're not driving clunkers, and telling them that they are is why you can't even mention an OSR game outside this general without people going "Oh, not you motherfuckers again."
People are getting a lot of second-hand hate, and it almost sounds like that hate is supposed to be directed at you.
>>95869883I'm running a sandbox game in FATAL right now. I'm actually amazed by how many torches someone can carry inside of their asshole.
>>95869887So... in other words you're just here to try to moralize and raise us to be humble? To educate us on how system doesn't matter and your way of playing has no advantages?
Yeah, good luck with that, li'l smarmbro.
>>95869858>shitting up the thread for 10-12 postsCompared to what we've been seeing on /osrg/ as of late, that'd be actual quality, but thanks for the link anyway.
>A lot of gamemasters [...] agree to a system that makes them miserable. Usually this is the most current edition of Dungeons & Dragons, which is designed in such a way to maximise gamemaster misery to sell more splatbooks.i cri
>>95869895>your way*our way
>>95869895Mostly just trying to figure out where all the hate is coming from and who's responsible.
>To educate us on how system doesn't matter and your way of playing has no advantages?Are you talking to me? Because I didn't say that.
>>95869901>>A lot of gamemasters [...] agree to a system that makes them miserable. Usually this is the most current edition of Dungeons & Dragons, which is designed in such a way to maximise gamemaster misery to sell more splatbooks.Lol, that's always the line right before "You should buy my game instead."
>>95869908>Because I didn't say that.You sure as hell seem to be implying it in the conversation with the other anon where you insist that OSR games can't be better for sandbox play.
>>95869923If you plan on talking to people in your head and what you imagine they're implying you probably shouldn't be clicking on real people's posts.
>>95869926Okay, so in fact then you actually agree that OSR games are like a car where other games are like bikes, canoes or just trudging on foot? And that it's fine to move with the attitude that people who get mad about this fact and "cause friction" have only themselves to blame for their butthurt?
Sincerely trying to understand what your claim is here, since you're saying I misunderstood the posts but they seem to read pretty clearly.
Why do I get the feeling that if I explain more he's just going to try and tell me what I'm saying again?
>>95869973>Ducks out of making his position clear so he can cower behind ambiguityYou had us there for a few posts, toddle on.
>>95869973>anon breaks the fourth wall and makes his interior monologue known to the audienceKINO
>>95869973Because he's a retard.
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>Another attempt at 'See, see, this is why everyone outside this thread hates /osrg/!
>>95869973Well, which is it? It's not like his question's some sort of hypercomplicated philosophical tesseract, he's just asking whether it's okay to be aware that some systems handle hexcrawling better than others, or not. It's a yes/no question, really.
>>95869973>>95869988ยกAy! ยกEl fagรณto idรฉntico!
Anyone got advice on a good tool for mapping a pointcrawl? Obviously I could just draw circles in lots of tools, but something which can give depth and detail per node would be useful.
>>95870340This is extremely close to being a completely unhelpful answer but I have a memory of someone in the blog era mentioning that a regular productivity app with flowcharts is great for this, possibly Powerpoint, god help us.
>>95868579Labyrinth Lord. Peak aesthetics, easy to run, easy to play.
can theatre of the mind ever be as good as map systems?
Would this be the thread for DCC advice?
>>95871164No, but I'm fine with it. Say it's for AD&D or whatever and pretend you don't need to roll a d30 to take a shit.
>>95871189lol ok how do you reckon with players being used to modern systems and getting them used to a โhigh mortalityโ . Especially people who love the roleplay side of things and get really attached to their characters and their stories
>>95871196give them ten or fifteen premade level 0 player characters for the party to manage and have them think of the story as the survival of the group and their trials and tribulations rather than the epic tale of randy ballsack(s)
the selling point for me has always been the organic and self-motivated stories that come from sandbox play. randy ballsack the thief or fighter or whatever is only as good as his motivation to achieve the dream of randy ballsack. if randy ballsack doesnt have a dream to pursue and die for he might as well just stay a farmer
>>95871164Obviously not.
>>95871196Not a question that has anything to do with DCC.
You tell them that this is the kind of game where you don't get attached to characters until they have stuck around for a while, and even then there is always a chance that they might die instantly. Stop trying to figure out how to properly dance for them and just ask them to play with you
>>95871242Oh sorry for reading a book and seeing entire pages mentioning OSR and thinking this was the right place
>>95871196DCC literally has the funnel system to acquaint players with this concept.
>>95871363No need to apologize newfriend, just lurk moar before posting!
>>95871377He's too stupid to bother reading the books, let alone actually playing the game he's talking about
>>95871363>Oh sorry for reading a book and seeing entire pages mentioning OSR and thinking this was the right placethis feels like a shitpost now, as OSR is not mentioned in the book until page 442, and the Appendix O: OSR Resources, pages 444-5
So, if you had read the book, as other anon mentioned, you would see the funnel system solving your issue.
You could also take the funnel out of the dungeon, to get them used to managing more than one character at once so that the PCs don't become special snowflakes in the mind of the players as they can use them like fodder to solve goals
Eh. I think you boys are too harsh on the lad, irritated no doubt by 2efag. I say let's cut him some slack and assume he's asking in good faith for now.
Holy shit this general has become cancer.
sorry was posting at work, now home
What I'm meaning to say is what do you suggest to do for players that dislike the funnel system itself because they fundamentally don't like making characters that are expected to die, or playing as relative blank slates until they survive
I understand the purpose and your arguments but it's not so simple as
>"my players dislike their characters dying"
>"us teh funnel system"
>>95872037Well, quite simply, that is not a soluble problem. Not all players like all play styles, and that's fine. If you don't think they can learn to enjoy high-lethality games, you should probably play something else with them than a game predicated on high lethality.
>>95872037>they fundamentally don't like making characters that are expected to die, or playing as relative blank slates until they surviveCheck out Beyond the Wall, its about as character driven and osr as you can simultaneously get.
But there will be a large gap between the majority of how this thread understands and uses OSR vs your players fundamental dislikes. Happens, not everyone has to play the hip name games and there's all sorts of nusr shovelware that accommodates style in easily marketable/digestible formats for players like yours.
>>95872037sorry for being a jerk earlier anon
in this case, i'd suggest trying something more NuSR like Shadowdark and just use DCC's cool mechanics like the magic system or heroic feats for fighters, etc
good luck running a game for your pals!
>>95872037More front end work for you but you could devise some sort of per-class meta currency like luck for thieves or what have you that they can use for when they play dumb and want a survival gimme.
Alternatively you could just challenge them to become better players by letting the tale of their characters deeds grow organically through play!
>>95872037Tell them that a post criticizing 2efag has a higher chance of getting janny deleted than a funnel character has of dying.
why is spelljammer so cagey on firearms
it's in space, give me some laser guns
>>95873178Why would you use firearms when there's magic.
The major spelljammer races can do shit like shoot magic with their minds.
>>95873224echoing guns are cool with a side of magic is gay shit for fags
>>95873243>>95873361Guns are cool, but if you have them your game kind of has to operate on action movie logic or its imminently more deadly.
I wonder if there are like tables to generate cool guns like tables for building out artifacts.
Is there anything wrong with my players encountering and dealing with goblins even into their high levels, so long as they are enjoying themselves and dealing with inter-tribal conflicts between the goblin gangs?
>>95873930>is there anything wrong with my players...>so long as they are enjoying themselves...i mean yeah, players are the retards and that is why you are wrangling them as the referee of the imagination game, but i'd say you're doing a fine job of wrangling
>>95873930you gotta keep throwing in 1 HD monsters/men throughout the whole campaign, so the fighter gets to look cool doing lots of sweep attacks
>>95873930Hordes of low HD monsters is a great chance for the fighters to look bad ass. Nothing wrong with that anon, let them focus on what they want to focus on.
>Inter-tribal conflictsWhat like Goblin Kings?
>>95868735Not bad ideas. I like the idea of a Mickey-Mouse fantasia style "wizard's tower where the lab experiments have run amok", but not sure I like the troll being up on level 3 lol. How and why did he even get that fatass up there?
>>95862426These claims are all either grossly exaggerated, wrong and easily disproven or opinion. To illustrate, claiming that the average roll of 3d3 is 7 is easily determined to be wrong. The real issue is you played a system you found out isn't for you. How you got to playing ACKS without figuring out what comes with that is beyond me.
>>95875607>The real issue is you played a system you found out isn't for you.That's far more charitable than he deserves. It's pure ivory tower design bitching that he's engaging in.
>>95875607Where was that claim made?
>>95873178>>95873224Why not just shoot spells from guns?
>>95873917>I wonder if there are like tables to generate cool guns like tables for building out artifacts.That'd be really cool, hah. Feeling like borderlands or some shit
>Generating an automatic gatling gun with an ammo capacity of 4
>>95875460Gygax had a band of trolls on level 1 of Castle Greyhawk. Just to teach his players to run like fuck.
Good morning!
After the most recent ACKS shit stirring, I cracked my book open after many years to reevaluate the game. While it is still too much simulationist for me, I must commend the Secrets chapter as a fine addition to the B/X tool kit. The procedure for generating and stocking a dungeon and creating its encounters tables is a nice and direct set of information to use as guidance, especially for OSR neophytes. The LOL JUST STOCK IT page in the OSE refereeโs book is not very helpful in this regard!
>>95876556I think the advice on world building for an initial location is some of the best I've seen
>The Obvious threat should be far away>The Existential threat should be closeIs just really elegant advice
>>95876588>elegantWeird way to spell "unnecessarily convoluted."
>>95876556The procedures teach all the worst habits for a budding GM. It's simulation for simulation's sake, and whatever value you can get out of it is almost accidental.
>>95876588That's storyfag shit.
>>95876556The dungeon building/stocking advice is kinda weak.
>put generic things>make sure to include something unique!>what's unique? Here's a handful of generic things as examples for some reason.I don't think it's possible to make a good dungeon using its advice. You might be able to avoid making a complete shitshow of a dungeon, but even a shitshow might at least be memorable.
Even the AD&D DMG still has the better dungeon advice, because while it's formatted like shit, it's got so many interesting ideas scattered inside haphazardly, like even Gygax wasn't aware of how good the ideas were at the time. Sending assassins after the party inside of a dungeon is one of those weird ideas that could make even a boring dungeon turn completely fresh, and Gygax just drops that like "this could be neat."
Generated dungeons tend to be trash, but using the AD&D guides can create some really unexpected and surprising things to occur. I sometimes pop open donjon just to create a quick random dungeon for fun, and you'll get weird shit like an encounter with 9 brigands carrying a giant mirror, and that's the kind of stuff I want from random generation because it poses a mystery and raises questions. Questions like "how long before a PC smashes the mirror?"
>>95873930I'm a big fan of reusing enemies. This isn't a monster of the week game. If any goblins do something memorable and survive, bring them back as warlords with pet ogres and shit. Like that Lord of the Rings video game but good.
>>95876661>>95876687Seethe louder why don't you, the people in the back row still have their hearing.
>>95876871>make sure to include something unique!That was how I felt about it to start with, but after a re-read I got where it was going.
Uniques are your rooms that you only include once, riddles, gimmick monsters, quirky treasure rooms, ect.
Once you think of it was basically the 'Other' category it works.
>>95877502I got that, but not only is it not great advice (making most of your dungeon just be generic filler is a waste of a dungeon), its examples of what's unique is pretty dull and not very helpful.
what does /osrg/ think of the hot springs islands module?
i think it seems really neat in theory with all the rolled variables for the contents ensuring some dynamic play throughs, but can anyone report how it actually functions at a table? just another hexcrawl?
>>95875460>fatassso have you just never seen a troll before?
>>95876661>The procedures teach all the worst habits for a budding GM. It's simulation for simulation's sake, and whatever value you can get out of it is almost accidental.this sentence literally says nothing
>>95877570>making most of your dungeon just be generic filler is a waste of a dungeonNAYRT but I gotta disagree with this pretty hard, obviously you should try to make even a gang of goblins or kobolds have some character *in play*, but it's fine for the key to just say "KOBOLDS (35): Pot. Str. 450 sp" or "6 Skeletons". Everything doesn't have to be some white knuckled Trilemma-sperg special snowflake Room of Tortuous Originality. If you're not incredibly jaded the maze exploring is fun on its own. Then when an underground garden where the fruit trees grow gemstones or a bowling alley for giants pop up, the uniqueness is all the better for the contrast, refreshing instead of giving you Vietnam flashbacks to playing Maze of the Blue Medusa.
>>95877845I tend to go with the exact opposite philosophy, if you can even call wanting to keep the game exciting a philosophy. Make "unique" stuff be the majority, flex your creative muscles so that the diversity keeps things fresh by itself, and then if you decide to include a room with just six skeletons even that still feels fresh.
>>95877946its okay to have empty space and "generic" things. adventures with scope and room to breath are much more fun and it makes the truly interesting rooms and encounters pop
>>95877946If everything is a one off idea then nothing stands out as unique.
Not to be cruel about it but if you think anything that isn't wildly unique has to be generic filler waste then that really is just a you problem.
It takes exactly zero effort to take an encounter that reads 'Trolls (3)' and throw a spin on it
>They're a trio of sisters, the eldest has hag stats>The room is a kitchen and they've a larder of halflings, some of them still alive>They're starving and willing to be taken as prisoners without a fight for the price of a cow eachI wouldn't call any of these uniques because at the end of the day the encounter is 3 trolls.
But that doesn't mean they have to exist in whitespace
>>95877946Stupid special snowflake advice. Absolute garbage
I'm Anon who wrote
>>95877845 and I just want to say this guy
>>95879090 is a shitposting faggot who does not represent me or my operation.
I play with an older guy, and one of the arguments that often comes up with him regarding "OSR" games vs OLDE GAMES is that he often says, "Well, that's how we did it in the old days!" whenever certain rules come up. But I have to explain to him that this isn't a 1-to-1 recreation of the old days, and that "Modernist" and "Modern" aren't the same thing.
For example, in the last session we read a riddle written on the wall in the lower floor of a dungeon. Well, two players had the riddle copied down in two different ways, and they each implied different things. (One player's said "Frost of hate" the other said "Fires of hate") So there was a disagreement over whose was right and who was misremembering.
The old grognard said, "Well, my character has an intelligence of 15, so he would likely know! I'm going to roll a skill check to remember!" To which I said, "No, that's not what skill checks are for. You either remember or you don't." I also said that this is modern narrativist crap. He said, "NO! THAT'S HOW WE'D DO IT BACK IN THE DAY!"
I'm not asking who is right here, because as DM, I've governed that this isn't what a knowledge check is... And that I should rarely use such checks. But I will ask if anyone ever gets in frequent discussions or disagreements with any players regarding "How things were REALLY done"?
>>95880364Anyone who forces players to figure shit out with their IRL int instead of allowing the use of their character's score to some extent, even if just hints, is a retard.
>>95870340Obsidian's Canvas plugin (included in base install) is really cute, though I've never used it that much.
>>95881328Nah.
Our games are just different. Mine's an actual challenge that holds the players accountable. Yours is playing cops and robbers in the back yard..
>>95862652>Here's me being retarded over ACKS in another thread, see, I'm right!Ironic, given the only person wrong was (You)
What are the best adventures from a design/template standpoint?
>>95870340You could use draw.io (they maybe changed their name but googling it still works). It's for flowcharts but works decently well for mapping.
>>95882353>ACKS is trash, see, here's a critique of it [Link]>But that critique is shit and, more importantly, wrong>Wow, obsessed much, linking through to another threadIt really took you 3 days to come up with that one huh?
This is a halfling
It is a friend
>>95883362>This is a halflingExplains why she's got a rack for two.
>>95883431She's like four feet tall so her body fat is more compact.
>>95883305>"it's wrong+no arguments just tantrum!"If you want to defend your favorite system, try to do it in a way that doesn't make you look like someone's paying you to do it.
Since I had some time to kill
>>95862426A lot of what they're saying is pretty incoherent, not necessarily saying the points are invalid outright but they're doing a really piss poor job explaining it and doing so in a deliberately this makes no sense way. Some of it sounds like it's based on 1e which definitely is less polished, I can't say if any playtesting was done prior to its release but afterwards vast swathes of it were rewritten based on play feedback, not high level structural things like "domain play is dumb get rid of it" but "yeah this shit is actually recursive could we figure out a way to not do that?"
The worldgen stuff I genuinely don't understand. There's not a lot of RNG being done there though I can't speak to it too much since I haven't done it in a while, a lot of it is this is the structure of a kingdom, you'd have this many dukes, here's how much they earn, what level they'd be, stuff like that. The approach is more so you have a world idea, here's numbers that make it make sense (within the framework of ACKS). The default of 6gp is very obviously mentioned, you can roll by hex but you can just assume the average of 6gp per hex for land value since the roll is 3d3. Most of the math is based off this so the option to do that is very much presented as only there if you really want to get into the weeds.
1/3
>>95883818Their understanding of the mercantile system is not great, larger markets do shift demand modifiers around in a specific range but there being one omni-market for a kingdom just isn't true. An empire with a Class I settlement is going to be large enough that not everyone is trading with that Class I settlement. Its influence will ripple out via influencing the closer settlements it does trade with but it's not going to completely wash out the demand modifiers for the entire kingdom. You can definitely still go to distant locations and have a sizeable demand difference between them, which is the whole point of arbitrage trading. Then even aside from the demand modifiers there are the local pricing in the moment, what you can then bargain for, whether you have a trade route set up, whether they have a monopoly, or any in universe situations that might be modifying the price such as an ongoing war or what not, there's plenty of ways to make a profit. The complaint of it having a lot of shit going on is true, especially in 1e, it was streamlined a bit in 2e but still requires a lot of stuff. ACKS definitely works a lot better with spreadsheets that's not a lie.
2/3
>>95883826They also don't seem to know a lot about the domain management. Building your stronghold is a pretty small part of it. If you want you can literally build it out with component pieces listed or you can just say you're building a 10,000gp stronghold, what that looks like doesn't really matter, all that matters is the value you put into it which secures the area. It's assumed you're not just digging a hole or doing something completely stupid. At low levels domains aren't going to be giving you a ton but they're consistent and risk free and require very little babysitting. You don't get negatives for not directly managing your domain you just get positives if you do, and for smaller domains it takes like 1-2 days a month so you can adventure like normal, a level 4 isn't going to be leaving for 5 months or anything like that. The morale rolls are month by month and don't shift by more than 2 steps so you have plenty of time to course correct by lowering taxes, throwing festivals, increasing a garrison, suppressing dissidents, whatever approach you want, without having to micromanage month to month.
Domain growth is mostly linear, there's no way to just suddenly get 1,000 people into your kingdom. You can dump money into via the investment rules as they mentioned off-hand but again that's a small element. You can play the Morale game to try and increase growth with the various options I previously said, you can split your land and give it vassals for them to manage, you can buy a bunch of slaves which is probably the closest to going hard but yeah, shit takes some time. Early growth is pretty jumpy, once you get pretty sizeable it does become average but that's sort of the point. It's meant for you to go out and conquer to get a big jump in income not just sit there and wait for everything to grow.
It definitely isn't for everyone but it does work for the most part. If anyone isn't wholly sick of this discussion by this point I'll address other shit.
3/3
>>95883818>>95883826>>95883832Address the other shit as well. It won't kill the beast for good since they're clearly going to keep going regardless of how many times they're proven to be fake and gay.
But it's interesting to see actual discussion come out of it.
Oh and is the reply someone posted that was from the book legit? Or was that irrelevant bullshit from a different section of the book?
I will say, even on the face of it going 'Well you might as well use 6gp for every hex since that's the average when you roll 3d3' came off as retarded to me, it'd be the same as saying you might as well just not bother rolling stats since they'll average out.
>>95883818>>95883826>>95883832Let's see how long before it replies with 'Nuh-uh, you're wrong and smelly, I'm-I mean, the person in that thread I linked, is right. Stop throwing a tantrum. Hur-hur'
>>95876529I meant it more as just 'how' or maybe 'why'. Like, did the wizard teleport the troll up there? Trolls are big as fuck, why does he even need that on the 3rd story? lmao
>>95884016Do you not understand what the word "cellar" mean, you buffoon?
>>95881328Nah you're just a bad DM and have bad players. Pitiable really.
>>95883877Sure, what specific stuff? I didn't want to go line by line because a lot of the stuff was really part of a larger category of issue. Wading through the other thread and all the replies is always a pain, are you talking about the screenshots for creating the setting someone posted? That is indeed from the ACKS 2e Judges Journal but what context are you asking about?
The 6gp average thing is used for large kingdoms that might be hundreds of hexes. There's very little mechanical value to you rolling out all of those because with that many it's gonna be close to 6gp. It does suggest you rolling them out for when you're first starting out where 1 6 mile hex is gonna be all you're doing for a while so that variance could have a huge impact. Similar idea to not rolling out the stats of every 0th Level peasant you run into, you can assume if for some reason you need to roll some stat related thing that it's average across the board. Similarly if they become important you'll probably roll out their stats. If you need to zoom in to a specific location in a kingdom you can roll out the land value there to get an idea.
>>95883992I'm mostly just vibing, I run ACKS, I like numbers, it works but it's definitely spreadsheet the TTRPG in a lot of ways. The ideal state of ACKS is becoming familiar enough with the numbers and how everything is set up that you can then just wing it on an informed basis. The ton of rules are really just codifications of the various rulings the dude made to B/X over the years so if you also want to know how many soldiers a kingdom can field in a month you can just use someone else's pre-done math instead of Just Making It Up (which can work but almost certainly won't be consistent) or Doing It Yourself (which takes a fuck ton of time and energy).
>>95883747If macris can't afford artists I doubt he is paying people to say things that hurt your feelings on 4chan
>>95883877>how many times they're proven to be fake and gay.Are you illiterate? Those walls of text don't "kill the beast", they only go so far to say "the rules aren't great, but maybe not entirely as bad as those posts make them out to be, and I can't even say I actually understood those points."
You were really hoping for some sort of "OH MAN, NO ONE WILL EVER SAY ANYTHING MEAN ABOUT ACKS EVER AGAIN, TOTAL ARGUMENT SHUTDOWN!" and instead it's just "Eh, according to my opinion, it mostly works?"
>>95884412Macris can afford artists, it's just most are refusing to work with him because it would be career suicide. It's no career suicide to anonymously shitpost on the internet.
>>95884421For the record I do think the rules are pretty great, just not for everyone, and any points I didn't understand were because the guy's complaints often seemed completely disconnected from the rules in question. Trying to parse out that he's talking about the trade route demand modifier adjustments when he's complaining about everything being rolled into one market is kind of a pain in the ass.
>>95884421>'Here's some posts explaining how ACKS doesn't work, dead to rights, 100% facts, it's shit and the numbers don't work.'>That's retarded, incoherent bullshit and here's how they're being duplicitous>Nuuuoooh, you don't understand, the rebuttal mostly agrees with m-them.The arguments being made are incoherent and deranged, there's no substance to them and they don't even read like an attempt at critique, they read like an attempt at a gotcha which you were then hoping to transplant from there to here without mentioning the people over there calling them bullshit and pointing out how they were wrong.
Only to then get an entirely independent set of rebuttals because this is /osrg/ and people know their shit about osr.
Here's your (You)
Don't spend it all in one place.
>>95884562>'Here's some posts explaining how ACKS doesn't work, dead to rights, 100% facts, it's shit and the numbers don't work.'If you're just going to attack strawmen that only exist in your own mind, you're going to keep looking like a complete retard to anyone who decides to look at what posts you're pretending to refer to.
>>95884562>>That's retarded, incoherent bullshit and here's how they're being duplicitousThat's not what those posts say at all either.
Are you actually being paid to throw tantrums? I don't actually think it's possible to be naturally as stupid as you're acting. Or is there some other force motivating you to act like the dumbest possible fanboy?
>>95884435He's explicitly stated multiple times that his art budget was up to 100K and that he would not go any farther above that otherwise he would start losing money. Sure he would have more options if he had better politics, but strictly speaking budget was the limitation, and not artists
>>95884579In that thread:
>Despite the rules not working>Which ones>All of themIn this thread:
>it's like a whole two pages of "these numbers don't make any sense.">A lot of these are pretty bigYeah, know what, let people judge for themselves what was meant by those statements. I wonder what any man about town would take from them.
>S-strawm-You being a strawman would require you to yearn for a brain at some point.
>>95884619Nta but acks is still p good
>>95884619>"hey man, you're strawmanning">"you think THAT is strawmanning?! Watch this!"Is there actually something wrong with your brain?
>>95884609Honestly? I think the art style is a misstep as well.
While Dimgrim: Lords of Edgenight has proven there is a rather large audience for propped up, style over substance schlock in the osr scene, even that hammered heavy on a specific art style.
He should've kept and iterated on the art from ACKS 1, leaning into the black and white, thick linework.
The book could've been loaded with it for a fraction the cost of coloured artwork.
>>95884648At 100k it's almost guaranteed to be embezzlement, unless the artist is actually saying "No one's going to want to hire me after this, so quadruple my fees".
>>95884661Idk much about commissioning RPG art for books, can you show me some numbers or common stats?
>>95884661I am the one who you replied to, Alex has publicly stated that the high five figures is as high as he goes, so it's not exactly 100k, but he has also been open about how the artists that he does work with are ones that he is regularly associated with. I can understand the point about there being a premium for working with him.
>>95884661Given the core set is 3 fat books with close to 1500 pages the quantity of art means a high five figures wouldn't be an outlandish budget. Might be higher or lower than the average but it's not obvious embezzling numbers.
>>95884839>I am the one who you replied to, Alex has publicly stated that the high five figures is as high as he goes, so it's not exactly 100k, but he has also been open about how the artists that he does work with are ones that he is regularly associated with. I can understand the point about there being a premium for working with him.I know why he wanted to change styles and bring it more in line with his supers series.
But come on, pic related has so much more character.
>>95884881Agreed, assuming 1 big piece of art every 3 pages that's 500 unique pieces of art.
150 dollars per piece would tot up to 75k easily.
Seems more like what progs would call 'paying artists a living wage', funny how they immediately leap to money laundering scam artist as an answer instead because they don't like the guy.
Anyone could share some playthroughs of hyperborea rpg? how well does it fare? I'm thinking about switching from DCC to it.
>>95884753NTA, I read somewhere that common stats are around 40,000-50,000 grand for commissioning art for a book, the guy was using it to say how AI should be used instead so he was probably retarded but still
>game is made by a right winger
>it's called ACKS
kekaroo
>>95884881>it's not obvious embezzling numbersIt's somewhere between embezzlement and mismanagement.
A typical major publisher spends only about 3-5k per book on art. Indie publishers often get by with just 2k per book, with most of that money going for the cover and 4-10 large splash pages, with only a some minor illustrations for the rest.
As a quick aside, WotC spends stupid amounts of money on art for its books, but it's not a typical publisher, and seems to be tapping heavily on its MtG artist network as well. Even TSR never spent anywhere near as much as WotC spends, and it used to have some of the more art-heavy game books on the market.
It's entirely possible to deck out an RPG book with high quality art for 10k. Even a double length book wouldn't stretch it that much further, since the biggest cost tends to be the cover art and you can get away with less art as you move towards the back of the book. At 15k a book, you're talking about a very high quality production. That is, if you're spending your money wisely.
>>95885156Those numbers are insane.
>>95884400Nah, people who don't use the game's rules to solve problems in the game are the problem with games. As the old saying goes, you don't ask your players to lift 400 pounds to prove his character can lift 400 pounds.
>>95885183You're seriously lowballing the figures. $2k would be if you're doing a 40 page flimsy back and even that multiplied by the size of the II gives $75,000.
And that's lowballing for weaker art, in reality:
https://loottheroom.uk/rpgs-and-the-high-cost-of-art
https://www.dragonbonegames.co.uk/how-much-does-it-cost-to-make-a-rpg-book-ttrpg-rough-price-guide-estimates/
These give some good general guestimates.
>>95885183>>95885156Which one of you is correct?
>>95885177What did he ever even say? I watched like two of his videos and the entire thing was about math problems with D&D classes that he aimed to resolve in his game.
>>95885183I mean the core books are out, you can see how many pieces of art there are. If he spent $10,000 on just the amount of pieces he said he got before using AI art, clocking in at ~750, that'd be $13 per piece. Maybe you could get that by paying a starving artist to draw some black and white doodles but that is clearly not "high quality art" for 10k. The art in the books is clearly not that, you might not like it but it's certainly more complex, being in color with other stuff going on which drives the price up. Upper five digits is what he said he paid for it, so before the extra "AI assisted" art pieces that would be $133 per piece if we used $99,999. If it was ~$80,000, and let's say there were 100 more pieces of AI assisted art you'd be looking at ~$95 per piece which given the mix of full page, half page, cover art, and then smaller monster portraits and spot pieces isn't outlandish. He could have gotten billed a premium because they knew he was squeezed for artists or maybe he did skim some off the top but it's not gonna be much.
You can argue he's stupid for commissioning that much art and for choosing the artists he picked but based on the quantity and complexity (not quality) the numbers aren't far off.
>>95885302At that point you should just be playing a video game. My players value input and agency, and giving them the ability to try and solve problems on their own without pushing a button on a character sheet, makes them better at solving problems and makes me better at creating them. This is a genuine skill issue and you are mind broken by other editions of the game
if you can't afford human art you can just not have art in your book honestly. generative AI images genuinely look worse than no images at all. but I'm not part of the mass audience that needs all that modernity, I guess. I love seeing cool fantasy art but I also understand that hobby products cease being hobby products when you're investing a fuckton of money into them since at that point they have to make return than they cost you to make
macris paying to have it at all is cool of him. if he were actually a greedy shitbag he'd use genned shit. his game's not for me, I prefer most fast and loose swords and sorcery action to the hyperdetailed madness ACKS lends itself towards, but I can still respect the game for doing that
>>95885326He used to work for a business owned by Milo yinapolous (sp?).
This makes him a nazi, of course.
>>95885335>"YOU CANNOT ASK QUESTIONS, YOUR CHARACTER ONLY KNOWS WHAT YOU KNOW!"
>>95885338Well you can vote with your wallet and you can make your own artistic decisions on what is and is not part of your book. Fortunately Ai art is very cheap, and even bad art can help break up pacing for a book's layout.
>>95885335following the rules of the game enables input and agency, though
and allowing characters to do things players themselves cannot do also enables input and agency
>>95885338He used tons of Ai images too. Come to the realization that tools that you don't like, are still going to become more common and pervasive due to their ease of access and broad use
>>95885367Nah, players should be encouraged to ask lots of questions and absorb lots of details in order to make better more informed decisions.
But
>>95885381 players shouldn't be able to ask "DM can I push a button and have you solve this puzzle for me?"
>>95885342It might not make you a Nazi, but it definitely makes you a slimy scumbag.
In fact, being the CEO of a homosexual's company probably means you're definitely not a Nazi, but if that homosexual is trying to market himself as an "alt-right leader" via trolling on social platforms, you might actually be worse than just a Nazi.
>>95885381If you want them to have an option to Auto solve, then that's on you, but that's disrespectful to the players intellectually and a crutch for a weak DM
>>95885394You should try and seek some Mental Health treatment. Normal people don't have these kinds of thoughts or reactions. Please enjoy your games and let others enjoy theirs.
>>95885394>you worked for someone I dont like? You're literally worse than a nazi! Smells fishy
>>95885390There was never a button in this conversation. You made it up in your head. The argument was "being able to use your character's ability scores to some extent, even if just hints, should be allowed" followed by "You shouldn't have to lift 400 pounds to prove your character can lift 400 pounds".
>>95885313Did you even read through what you linked? They align with what I said, and you're forgetting that most costly bit of art is the cover, which you're not going to be multiplying over the length of the book.
>>95885394This is a deranged post.
>Attempt to Kobiyashi Maru the subject by turning it into 'It's either embezzlement or everyone hates working for him and overcharges the chud' falls through so they immediately pivot to hitting the Nazi button again
Looks like someone is upset that linking to their posts in the other thread didn't pan out.
Who wants to bet dollars to doughnuts that we were maybe 2-3 posts away from 'ACKS man is a stupid businessman who can't keep a handle on his finances, which is why he has to hire shills to-' posting?
Seek help, be it from God or a therapist.
>>95885377I wasn't going to buy it regardless, I'm satisfied with my selection of systems as is
>break up pacing for a book's layout.this is a weird thing to me, though
a rulebook is a reference document, not a novel. what's pacing got to do with anything? art in rulebooks is just dressing
points I'll concede in favor of art in rulebooks as anything else are when they provide images of monsters/locations for me to describe, and I guess for players it helps solidify tone or show you what cool things you might do, but it is still ultimately fluff to me
nice fluff. I like fluff. I want to touch the fluff. but it's fluff
>>95885383ah. that's a bummer
>come to the realizationyeah I already have. you can come to realizations without liking them.
while I don't like genned images due to the morality of scraping with ZERO royalties EVER, if that were somehow not the case I wouldn't really care because at that point they'd just be low quality images. which is fine for budget products
>>9588539499% of people can't afford to be choosy about their employer
if you're in a narrow field you have to take what's available to you
employment is a purely transactional relationship, which you'd know if you'd ever had a job in your life
>>95885411Being the CEO of a company that only exists to promote an internet troll is pretty slimy. And as bad as Nazis are, they're at least not shameless hypocrites.
>>95885402>>95885431Whoa, defense force is lined up and ready.
>>95885452>Whoa, defense force is lined up and ready.Hah, called it.
>>95885442>99% of people can't afford to be choosy about their employerNo, you can definitely be choosy. That's kind of why most companies try to hit a basic bar of "We might be bad, but at least we're not some sort of internet troll promotion agency ha ha."
If you are begging on the street and there's no other job available, yeah, it might be understandable, but that's definitely not the case and if you're going to do something shameful, you probably deserve to carry that shame you've earned.
>>95885477>No, you can definitely be choosyYou are not real. You can't be real. You are a troll of some kind or the embodyment of priviledge.
>>95885494he's definitely not real and not worth replies
>>95885442>99% of people can't afford to be choosy about their employer>if you're in a narrow field you have to take what's available to you>employment is a purely transactional relationship, which you'd know if you'd ever had a job in your lifeI don't think you've ever had a job or a soul if that's how you think. Refusing to work for someone/something you strongly disagree with is just basic integrity. If you don't have that, it's more than fair to call you soulless.
>We've reached the point where he's explicitly telling people 'Do what I think is moral and good or else you're not a real person in the way I am.'
As always, did Marcis murder your entire clan?
Did he rape the forgemother?
Did he shit in the beer brewing vat?
What did he do to earn his name being before the contents page in your own personal book of grudges exactly?
>>95885494You might not be 100% happy with your employer and it may be a compromise on your ethics in some fashion, but most people have lines that they just won't cross.
Even purely pragmatic people understand this and will avoid working for companies they know will reflect badly on themselves. They may be willing to work for an ethicless drug company as a cog in the machine, but they won't join a "Nazi Rape Machine Factory and Repair Shop" unless they personally don't care about lying about where they work at during BBQs.
>>95885452Normal people don't have these kinds of things in their head like you do, and I think we both know that no matter what somebody does, you're always going to try and find dirt on them, because you will never be happy with anything, you will only be happy with destroying things
>>95885538Smoked a fish without filing his taxes to the local lord
>>95885567>Nazi Rape Machine Factory and Repair ShopThe fact that this is what you equivalate with working for milo, shows that you are deranged and out of touch with reality.
The overwhelmingly vast majority of people don't give a shit about things like this, but you do, because without them you will have nothing to stand up for.
>>95885567>Even purely pragmatic people understand thisNot particularly stupid ones.
me? I stand up for cheesecake in OSR games
>>95885592>equivalateAre you stupid?
I needed an example that even an idiot like you wouldn't argue with "NO, That's a perfectly legitimate business and there's no chance of it ever looking bad on your resume!", and you still tried to argue about it.
I hate having to say this.
But can we all just mass report his clearly off topic posts and move on instead of the entire thread going to shit for another 200-300 posts while he screeches that everyone who keeps telling him to fuck off is the same person/a shill/the usual bollocks?
Maybe if they get enough reports they'll do something about him for once.
>>95885608Your using the exact argument that he should have not taken a job because it was the "Nazi Rape Machine Factory and Repair Shop".
Im sorry that your exaggerated papertiger got btfo but maybe you should learn how to argue more effectively.
>>95885634There's multiple people discussing this, you nonce. One of the problems with ACKS discussion is that try as you might to distance it from its creator, the creator being such an idiot tends to be much more interesting than the system itself.
>>95885692That's not what I'm saying, and I just told you that's not the case. Please, stop trying to tell people what there arguments are just so you can feel superior to your fabricated strawman arguments.
The argument I was making is that if you don't want "I worked at [this company]" to be on your resume, you probably shouldn't work at that company. And definitely not as its CEO.
>>95884648Big agree. Acks1 art so much better
>>95885592Working to promote Milo is way worse than a Nazi Rape Machine Factory (and Repair Shop). Raping Nazis is probably the closest thing we have to okay rape.
>>95885753I wonder if anyone has trained an AI to do that kind of art yet. The really old school D&D art.
Not for commercial use, just for doing NPCs for my campaign ongoing.
>>95885791>>95885731If youre not equivocating those things, then your argument doesnt exist. I accept your concession.
>>95885785Seek mental health treatment.
>>95885791Just pick up a ballpoint pen and start drawing when you work on your campaign.
Before you know it youโll be able to make your own cool fantasy art!
>>95885791Did not mean to reply to you here:
>>95885791Apologies
>>95885832Apology accepted and appreciated.
>>95885791You mean like the B&W style in 1e? Thats a good question that ill try for. Ive been getting really good results lately.
>>95885840I still got the posts wrong but you know what I meant I hope lol
>>95885847>You mean like the B&W style in 1e?If you can get it then please ping it over as well.
I've got an entire campaign write up that needs art.
>>95885824>If youre not equivocating those things, then your argument doesnt exist. I accept your concession. Oh wow. You are just genuinely 100% retarded.
>>95885869>if I make up this exaggerated hyperbole that is unrelated to the topic, I win! lol
>>95885869He's just trolling.
>>95885854theres a bunch of style...flip through the 1e dmg for me and select some page numbers for reference and Ill work on recreating them
>>95885878>if you use an example of a company no one would want on their resume, I can't understand that's what you were doingYou are 100% retarded.
>>95885890If the hypothetical argument cant be taken at face value in comparison to the actual topic, then its strawman whataboutism at it's finest.
All this to distract from the fact he linked his own posts in a separate thread, tried to pass it off as 'This totes shows that ACKS is fundamentally flawed down to the ground', and the universal reply was 'Fuck off retard, no it doesn't.'
For what purpose?
>>95885895So what does that have to do with whatever business milo ran? Are you implying that people will see it and think "nazi rape factory, better not work there!"?
>>95885893Know what, something along the lines of pic related, even broad strokes, would be enough.
Black and white, thick ink work type images.
>>95885902When he runs out of arguments he immediately shifts into "ACKS is a nazi game!"
Speaking of OSR artwork
>Begone THOT
>>95885421Hints are ok, but can sometimes be poorly implemented. Can also give the high int character the benefot of solving these problems on fewer turns.
>>95885421The button is the number on your character sheet, that is representative of your characters intelligence, and you pushing it, is rolling a D20 to solve the puzzle. I bet you're the same kind of person who tries to use a diplomacy skill to convince the king to give you his crown when you first meet him
>>95886040There is a reaction roll that is modified by charisma in some editions. You should use the rules when appropriate.
>>95885383That's kinda fucked up. I'd much prefer a book to just have less art.
If you're publishing something for free online, AI art maybe can get a pass, but having people pay for AI art is deeply unsettling.
>>95886059And tell me, what does Int tie into, mechanically?
>>95886228hes been transparent about it, so i dont see why it matters. My clothes were made with slave labor, but I still wear them
im thinking of making an orc fort as a starting dungeon encounter in my hex crawl
as Orc's hate sunlight, I was thinking of having like fort walls extended off of a cave (and hollow, so the orcs can flood the outer fort with force from their cave) with maybe a mess hall or an arming tent, and then a big (70x100') main room at the mouth of the cave, also fortified as an above ground building.
However I was thinking of having burrows at the back of this main room that would open up into a cavern system (partially inhabited by the orc tribe, but also expansive for deeper exploration and other potential factions)
does this jive? anything i should consider or must-have? ofc once i have drawn this terrible site, i will post it!
>>95884644Come on. You KNOW there is actually something wrong with his brain.
>>95886260What about it being in a deep canyon? Or thick forest? Somewhere that the light isn't as strong and they can hide during the worst of it.
All in all sounds reasonable, as for must have locations:
>Slave pit>Breedin' cave (Your call on any little 'uns or not depending on the hardcoreness of your group)>Some kind of midden where they throw all their shit including the dead, probably has an ooze or something in it>Chieftains arena where prisoners/slaves are forced to knife fight to the death for beans.
>>95886295Nice suggestions for the locations to include
I wasn't sure how to address the noon-time sun, but reading your post now I'm thinking of placing this cave-mouth deep in some woods and maybe it used to be Just A Cave In The Woodsโข until the orcs emboldened from recent success (maybe the chief or a strong orc found some relic deep in the cavern system, or stole it from another faction?), fortified outward and now showing visible signs of activity (nearby hexes raided, big black smoke from orc fires, etc)
Cheers anon
>>95886328Oily smoke fires is also a great idea, hell lean into the industrial aspects of orcs and maybe give them a fire mage who has a big cursed bonfire out front that smokes up the area.
Dousing it is, of course, an option, maybe throw a fire elemental into it so it's got some risks attached if they want to fuck with it.
Oh, giant mutant orc with retard strength.
And as for the relic, a war banner from another tribe maybe?
Could even be they're currently under siege from below as the tribe tries to take it back by force.
>>95885421Anon's right, Anon: you definitely want a different style of play than the one this general is about. Good for you if you want to play this way but it's not the old-school way.
>>95885438>Seek help, be it from God or a therapist.Unironically, that anon would be more likely to be effectively cured by playing solitaire Russian roulette. Therapy can't fix what's wrong with him and God clearly doesn't want to.
>>95885918You know what's even better than this art itself?
The fact that this is Frazetta's take on LotR. That's unironically Eowyn and the Witch King of Angmar.
>>95886232the ability to read books and scrolls, know languages, spell slots
If I was gonna ability check for this instance, I might use wisdom in lieu of intelligence to see if the PC had the fleeting insight to remember the phrasing of the riddle correctly --
But that would still go against the very nature of player skill versus player character skill at the core of OSR.
>>95886240It's not mentioned anywhere on the kickstarter page. Of the 2k backers, there's a good chance some of them had no idea that AI art was going to be used. Even this random anon had no idea and was even praising Macris for not being a "greedy shitbag."
>>95885338
>>95886358>And as for the relic, a war banner from another tribe maybe?>Could even be they're currently under siege from below as the tribe tries to take it back by force.this leads to having the beaten chief and his remaining grunts (if any, loser chief doesn't seem very strong to inspire remaining followers, maybe just him alone) as a faction to encounter in this area as well.. excellent
maybe the giant orc is a captured from the routed tribe, and a result of the fire orc shaman/mage's experimentation
good stuff, gonna get to work
>>95876556The thing that pissed me off the most about ACKS II is that they didn't port the Lairs from ACKS I "Lairs & Encounters" due to space constraint.
I know that it would've meant another 200 pages minimum, but I'm still angry about it.
>>95883826>ACKS definitely works a lot better with spreadsheets that's not a lie.I honestly don't think it's possible to play ACKS without multiple spreadsheets.
There really must be a game with 'realistic' domain rules between the easymode domain stuff in BECMI Companion set and the weapons grade autism of ACKS/ACKS2.
If a person has never read B/X, is reading Labyrinth Lord or OSE sufficient? Does one NEED to read B/X to understand how to run an OSR game? I have read Matt Finch's OSR primer.
>>95886662it's not strictly necessary but the examples of play in it are good
>>95886457write an email to your congressman ig
>>95886662read BX first as a primer, and then use OSE and its SRD as a reference tool
>>95866313>>95866361>>95866377>>95866857NTA I think victorian colonialists are the actual best comparison.
>>95867403>Whatโs a good intelligent monster race to oppose a militaristic orc encroachmentDepends on what the orcs have to cross through.
Mountains? Duergar. They can have domain over a mountain pass huddled in the crackhouse equivalent of a dwarven mountainhome/fortress, utilizing the terrain to their advantage. Being transactional allies could also grant access to deeper levels of the mountain that have been long off limits or strange equipment that's like items of dwarven-make but "wrong" somehow.
It's even more testy if there's also a dragon or wyvern or something in the area that likes using said hold as one of several food locations to check out on its hunting runs.
Kuo-toa or Sahuagin or homarids or similar would work if they go down the coast, rampaging through their waters and leaving a mess.
>>95868362I know some people who are finnish. One's parents were american so he sounds completely american save for a few small pronunciation quirks that would easily be passed off as just normal variation, and his ability to bust into speaking finnish at the drop of a hat. The other is his IRL friend and sounds very american purely because they grew up together and he learned english from the friend.
The slang I use is often alien to my parents when I see them, because I interact with so many people online of different locales that I learn a bunch of odd wording. They had a ball when I said "cattywampus" once because I learned it from a canadian.
>>95876661>>95876687nta, as a simple two-line mantra it's quite good and it makes sense in a game design perspective. You give the players meaningful choices:
>Beeline for the obvious threat, ignoring closer threats as distractions, and risking those threats doing more damage to the civilization(s), leaving a mess to come back to>Triage the existential threat(s) as they pop up, hoping that this doesn't allow the obvious threat time to hatch and grow into an existential threatI think describing this as "elegant" IS rather appropriate, but it's only so if the structure of your campaign needs it as a solution. As in, one example where it's a good solution would be if your setting a "cruel and uncaring world" in the sense that it's a terrarium that your players are dropped into. The kind that moves outside their own vision and has its own ebbs and flows regardless of what they do. Like if you have a TPK, the kind where new characters are dropped in weeks, months or years later and the landscape is eerily the same, but different. Shifted borders, sections of land pillaged and altered by war, new constructions, settlements having become wealthier or destitute, ruins with new occupants, etc.
This will not work if your setting is moreso one that's in stasis and will only move if the players start to tip the scales around (but you could still apply it as a "if you do X, then Y happens far away and Z happens nearby"... that makes it rather weak though). And the least useful manner to view it is that you have a big demon/wizard/demonwizard known to be at the bottom of a dungeon but the castle steward wants you to deal with a threat on levels 1-3.
>>95872037I would reccomend unironically running one of the LotFP meatgrinder dungeons, like Death Frost Doom, Hammers of the God, or The Grinding Gear. Pitch it as something like a single-arc horror adventure. Not quite a one-shot, but not a long-term thing. Something akin to a horror movie or 1-season show. Expect to not be successful, but have a "character arc" of a horror protag.
Then you can offer up the funnel type gameplay if it goes over well.
>>95880364"How things were REALLY done" depends on which groups people were with. Outside of the immediate Lake Geneva/GenCon area, shit was really varied. David Hargrave's schisophrenic Arduin games are evidence of that.
There are some commonalities across tables and times, but they're broad-strokes, and even Gary's games (and the ones his players later moved to running) shifted over time as to how things were handled.
Nobody would say that you're aren't playing "old school style" if you're not using a caller, but that's what was done in the earliest of days. It's moreso the dungeon exploration and time tracking that keeps the vibe.
AI art is unavoidable. Even if "you" don't use it, you'll pay for someone who does.
>>95886765ACKSfag, your self-imploding cope is starting to make me feel bad for you.
>>95886797Actually I'm an xWN fag
>>95886821For a second I thought you were gonna say you were a WotCfag.
>>95885338>>95886765I'm a non-AI artist and if you have the skill to use AI to get the artistic vibe you want then go right ahead. The problem with RPG books has always been bad (in terms of being ugly, like FATAL, not low-skill), incoherent art to the text, or just plain no art at all. There are some crazy things I've seen people make with AI that would be cool for surreal things, mostly, and hard to find a good artist for that would be willing to work on an RPG book. But for most stuff it's a bit tough to get a good, non-cheapo-looking aesthetic out of it. (You spend more dollar-hours fucking around with it than you would just handing someone money to do it on their time.)
Typically there's a level of trust between the publisher/author and the artist, as the former has little skill for the latter. Absent an artist they've had to do the "I know what I like when I see it" situation for stock/PD art, which is curated (if you like the stock image producer already) and easier to dig thru.
Ideally the artist is picked as a collaborator, not as an art-printer. I know some writers are assholes and don't treat it that way, but you can 100% see the diff in quality between products that do and don't.
>>95885791>>95885854You've been able to kind of do that for a while it's just more usually kinda weird looking rather than organic still. Just need the right tags. I've seen some OD&D/1e MM type of shit before but it looks more like the kind of thing you'd see in a badly-photocopied zine.
Getting rid of the shiny "perfect AI" look is something that you won't see many people do so it's not really all that common outside of the avant-garde types who aren't really using it for representational work, much less replicating old school stuff.
>>95886544It's possible, but the type of autist that is drawn to ACKS I don't think could leave well enough alone. The domain stuff is pretty easy to deal with on paper.
>pretty easy to deal with on paper.
>>95886614Too much shit to simulate for a single app.
There are people on the Autarch discord making some cool webapps though.
>>95886648Unfortunately, there's not.
You could take the chance and make one yourself, entering into the OSR market and eating Shadowdark lunch.
>>95886913You sure?
Just handling a couple wagons, filled with equipment, is a chore due to encumbrance. Then add all the hirelings and the downtime activities.
And that's only the Players' part, the DM needs to handle the Domains, Markets, Politics and so on.
It's just too much stuff to handle, and the longer the Campaign goes, more stuff get added to the mix.
>>95885442>a rulebook is a reference document, not a novel. what's pacing got to do with anything? art in rulebooks is just dressingNo, the art actually helps people orient themselves when paging through the book, if you have roughly one piece of art per 2 pages (doesn't need to be full-page of course) it makes it much, much faster for the reader to find a specific page. So in fact it's significantly more useful for a reference work like a rulebook to have a lot of art than it is for a novel.
>>95886765>Not just doing all the art yourselfLol. Lmao even.
>>95886648there are supplements on the matter,
On Demesnes & Downtime from Hack&Slash
Domesnes & Domination from Arcane Sword Press
are two I own in print and am familiar with in particular.
The first is on the archive, I'm attempting to locate a PDF of the second for submission
>4A4AH
>>95887111Damn... AIbros? Our response?
>>95886442Eowyn disguised, dressed in Rohan Femboy Army attire.
>>95886765While there is nothing wrong with AI in itself the issue is people see it as an artist rather than a tool to help artists. Using AI for stuff like backgrounds is fine but putting out tons of art without any real work is something people should avoid doing.
>>95887222People are hiring artists to produce art and the artists they hire use AI
>>95887166nta this really is the kind of thing that supplements are good for. Wanting everything in the main book is kinda silly imo
>>95887228Those people are not artists the AI is the artist.
>>95887256the AI is also not an artist
it's just the automated image generator
>>95887256Non-AI artist here, AI tools are not artists. They are not beings, they are computer programs. They are very similar to fractal art programs, just that the resulting image is (usually) more representational than abstract, there is no "thinking being" inside the computer just because it's called "AI".
Responsibility and moral agency don't apply to machines. It does not matter how automated the process is. You can think art is bad without going through a broken reasoning process to try to justify your distaste with some kind of giant moral reason.
Since we're talking about art so much at the moment, why don't anons accompany their posts with some art they like from OSR games and supplements?
Where's nuosr? I'm pondering junji ito artpunkslop
>>95887520/todd/ died AFAIK, so you'd probably have to make a Nu-SR thread, or make a thread specifically about the junji ito artpunk slop you are considering; the merits of which are sure to be tested as a thread without a general to support discussion around it! good luck!
>>95885926She way too thin to be your mom.
How often are you using alignment languages in your game sessions, /osrg/?
>>95888239Most of my PCs are neutral and they use it regularly. Combined with the Detect Evil spell they also use it to reveal the alignment of NPCs.
thoughts on The Shrike, or is it too artpunkslop for /osrg/?
>>95886232Depends on the edition. In OD&D, wisdom and intelligence gives the DM the power to veto or encourage your actions by default. Yes, "you can't do that, you are stupid" was core rules.
>>95887481I really, really like that morphsuit chainmail style that was poppular in fantasy art for a while.
>>95888904IIRC "Intelligence will also affect referees' decisions as to whether or not a certain action would be taken" was meant to refer to NPCs and monsters, not give the referee a veto over player actions. You'll note that Intelligence scores are the only ability scores given for all monsters in the AD&D Monster Manual.
>>95888934Monsters don't have ability scores in OD&D. All the rules on this page are for player characters.
How much do you let your players discuss situations and plans out of character? I prefer to keep it at a minimum and let NPCs around hear what they're talking about.
>>95889348I generally like to nudge in that direction, but I'll allow discussion fairly liberally with my newer group. They protested a bit when I tried to enforce minimal planning in combat (idea was quick phrase during declarations, retreats are vocally declared, no talking during combat, enemy declarations follow a symmetrical logic assuming no language barrier). It hasnt come up too often in the dungeons but I might try to stick a little harder with ooc discussion = congruent IC discussion.
>>95886648ive always thought you should just track the number of quarters produced and you already have the most important part of a medieval demense down and just handwave the rest. i understand that even at the height of roman urbanism grain still made up 83% of annual gdp, and it should be generally 90% in genericus medieval land
>>95889084That's a too simplistic attitude to take in interpreting the LBBs, there's a ton of implicit and assumed ideas they forgot to write down. Also, NPCs clearly have Intelligence scores in any case.
>>95890049>the number of quarters producedExplain.
Would it be appropriate to call for a player to roll a wisdom ability check to see if their character notices something subtly happening to them in game?
Like alignment language hand signs for instance. If the signs were being used toward the player but in a low key fashion so others might not notice the use?
>>95887481I always liked DCC art, but since it's not OSR I refrained from posting it here.
>>95890446I believe he's talking about quarters of grain. Eight bushels, roughly 1/4 ton.
>>95890831yeah (its also whats traditionally held to be what feeds a man on bread alone for a year, hence the saying an acre per man in medieval times)
obviously theres more details regarding wheat vs rye etc, and common land and so on but basically it works out
We are on page 10, someone drop a rope down so we can get out of this pit before it fully submerges us in water!
>>95888239In the sessions I play, I honestly don't think it's come up.
>>95889348for book keeping and inventory related matters we'll discuss it out of character. if it's related to plans we'll discuss it out of character to keep it rolling and then give a summary in character after the decision is made
>>95891108tie the rope to the large sack so we can drag it out first
Question regarding B/X (OSE) combat, are you allowed to make missile attacks and move afterwards within a turn or is the order of 3a. to e. fixed like spellcasters can't move and cast outside of certain mass combat rules.
>>95891999*round not turn
>>95891999Another anon here. Should each side follow those steps as single unit as in the whole side moves, then do missile attacks etc. or is it per unit?
>>95891999>>95892005>>95892029Best reask your questions in the new thread, Anons: This one will die shortly.
>>95892018>>95892018
>>95891999I dunno their intention, I checked the basic rules and they have no additional information besides that table. However, the chainmail initiative is supposed to be set in stone. With some special cases, like melee units being able to move an additional 3 inches to get into melee range during the attack phase.
>>95890405>there's a ton of implicit and assumed ideas they forgot to write down.AD&D, you will thank me later.