Thread 95868777

Quadrants Edition

Game Resources

Star Trek Adventures
-Official Modiphius Page (Rules, FAQ and Player Resources)
>http://www.modiphius.com/star-trek.html
-PDF Collection
>https://www.mediafire.com/folder/0w33ywljd1pdt/
-Character Builder and Token Maker
>https://sta.bcholmes.org/
Star_Trek_Adventures
-Homebrew Collection
>https://continuingmissionsta.com/

Older Licensed RPGs (FASA, Last Unicorn Games and Decipher)
>http://pastebin.com/ndCz650p
Other (Unlicensed) RPGS (Far Trek + Lasers and Feelings)
>http://pastebin.com/uzW5tPwS

Star Trek: Attack Wing
-Official WizKids Page (Rules, FAQ and Player Resources)
>http://wizkids.com/attackwing/star-trek-attack-wing/

Star Trek: Ascendancy
-Official Gale Force Nine Page (Rules and Player Resources)
>http://startrek.gf9games.com/

Star Trek: Fleet Captain
-Official WizKids Page (Rules and Player Resources)
>https://wizkids.com/star-trek-fleet-captains/

Star Trek: Into the Unknown
-Starter Rules
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1w8nb0ow28rE9SWPCp10wOGZWmGoTetYQ/view?pli=1

Lore Resources

Memory Alpha - Canon wiki
>http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Portal:Main

Memory Beta - Noncanon wiki for licensed Star Trek works
>http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page

Fan Sites - Analysis of episodes, information on ships, technobabble and more
>http://pastebin.com/mxLWAPXF

Star Trek Maps - Based on the Star Trek Star Charts, updated and corrected
>http://www.startrekmap.com/index.html

/stg/ Homebrew Content
>http://pastebin.com/H1FL1UyP

Thread Question: What region of space do you like to start campaigns off in?

>>95868777 (OP)
I will be honest, none of the Star Trek maps are good and that is partially because the writers obviously did not care one bit about it.

>>95869241
Inevitable on a decades-long franchise with a myriad of writers that were told NO CONTINUITY.
Not helping: as you said, plenty of writers not caring at all.

>>95868777 (OP)
>West
>Limitless potential

>East
>Uh, the Rommies and Klinks are being dicks again

How is it even a contest?

>>95869687
For me? It's South with the Gorn.

>>95869705
Strange New Worlds season 3 is coming in a month. Time for more Gorn xenomorph bullshit.

>>95871245
I can pray for an ENT-style mass course-correction. And a clever explanation for the Gorn discrepancy that is in reality just the FASA lore.

>>95871385
My take on reconciling the Gorn is very simple: the xenogorn are a non-sapient species native to their homeworld, akin to our tapeworms. That's also why the Gorn are such xenophobic militaristic assholes--they grew up on a death world out of 40k and just assumed the galaxy was like that.

>>95869241
"Star Trek Maps" was good, and probably the only map I've seen that really thought out the 3rd dimension of space. Too bad that absolutely everything that came after ignored it, save the FASA materials that were also completely ignored.

>>95871385
I think even without FASA the Gorn feel very strange. They were an alien race the Federation had yet to encounter. Arena always seemed to me to be partly about Kirk accepting the Gorn is not a monster but an intelligent being trying to survive like he is, rather than purely some story about human enlightenment over these barbarous lizards.
It's hard to reconcile with the Gorn being notorious monsters that Spock has fought with before. SNW Gorn should realistically have just raped Kirk and filled him with eggs.

>>95868777 (OP)
>TQ
Honestly, unless I'm actively setting the campaign on the border of another major faction, I just invent a name for a sector or a star cluster and, if pressed, will say it's in the Alpha Quadrant.

>>95869241
The thing that always trips me up is how much of the galaxy seems to be considered "explored." If a sector is 20 light years across, as is stated, and that map is 26x16, and the circumfrence of the galaxy is 100k, then that map covers 0.06% of it.

>>95876171
>circumfrence
I meant "diameter"

>>95874113

"Arena" begins with the Gorn faking Federation messages to get the Enterprise to beam down to Cestus III, specifically bringing tactical people, where they are then attacked without further provocation (implied to be by a numerically superior force as the position is being shelled in addition to direct-fire disintegrator weapons). The Gorn are apparently a small party and quickly retreat, pursued by the Enterprise, and are stopped by the meddling Metrons who make Kirk and the Gorn captain fight.

If anything, the part of "Arena" that's irreconcilable with the Gorn as depicted is Spock's insistence on letting them go, effectively because they're alien and sentient. But the Gorn are the only reasonable perpetrators of the massacre on Cestus - they're positively identified by the sole survivor as responsible - and Spock's lines are really just the screenwriter's attempt to justify the Metron's position, which is in equal parts bloodthirsty and voyeuristic despite their claims of advancement. The Gorn's own argument - that the Federation colony intruded on their space - is fair, but their reaction with genocide was outrageous, since they're clearly intelligent spacefaring beings. Spock can't have it both ways and neither can the Metrons.

The Metrons also confirm that the Gorn are merely bloodthirsty killers when the fight is over and offer to destroy them as such; while the Metrons are themselves suspect. Kirk suggests that the Gorn may have been simply "defending themselves" but this is asinine (unless you accept that TOS implied the Federation started a Gorn genocide first) and a way of wrapping up a bad script quickly with a deus ex machina.

Anything else about the TOS Gorn until now is speculation or beta canon.

Admittedly Spock's position on the Gorn in "Arena" is hard to reconcile with SNW, but then it's hard to reconcile anybody's positions in "Arena" with the events they are witness to. Absolutely insane lack of character.

>>95876171
Remember, Starfleet is always exploring some thing or other *well* within its borders (in order to the hero ship being able to reach sector 001 in days)

>>95876727
Which means it'd take 115 years at Warp 6 to travel across a quadrant. I think Voyager is the thing that makes the universe feel so much smaller than it should be. But it's good information to have on hand for gaming.

Do you guys use any props for your games?
For example things like background music of the warp core, or a soundboard of effects like phaser fire or beaming up sounds.
Or perhaps making character models in Star Trek Online?
Maybe a Trek themed table in Tabletop Simulator?

Or it is pure basics; pen, paper, dice and snacks only?

>>95878348
I make maps, usually in the style of Lcars displays. And then I shamelessly reuse them between campaigns. I’ve used STO screenshots for background stuff, but never for anything more than beauty shots of the group’s ship.

>>95878348
>>95878486
I concur that having illustrations of locations is a good way to get the party in the mindset with having to interact with the grid defining all the crunchy bits.

>>95878556
>illustrations of locations
How do you go about getting those?

>>95878639
Unironically, I use the ground map previews from Star Wars Empire at War. The reinforce points work as landing/transport locations to start and end away missions.

What's the point of this general if you guys never discuss board games? What's the point of a Paramount marketing general on /tg/?
These new shows are getting canceled left and right. Let it die.

>>95879585
The new shows are supposed to be good despite being bad.

>>95879585
Paramount has forsaken us long ago to chase the clout of ironic nerds.
We speak in tongues of our cooperative fanfiction experiences that are largely based on the fanfictions of other people that were graced with the sacred license.

>>95881093
I unironically enjoyed Prodigy S2 and the later seasons of LD.

>>95879585
>marketing
More like anti-marketing/hate-circlejerk.

>>95881306
SNW is a better prequel series than Enterprise, it's just getting more hate because Enterprise has been around longer

can't imagine /stg/ letting Trip getting pregnant or Phlox getting over his racism go without endless fucking comment, have to assume nobody's bothered to read the episode summaries

>>95882766
ENT, for better or worse, its its own thing.
TOS 2.0 is just a rehash for normies that only know pop-culture trek.

>>95882920
>ENT, for better or worse, its its own thing.

it really wasn't, it just updated the sets

I like notion that the Gorn used to be a much larger empire and that lot of what is now Federation space used to be theirs.
And that in their minds, it is still theirs and the Federation opportunistically started squatting there while their empire is temporarily inconvenienced.

With how full of life the Trek universe is, with civilizations at every level of development, it only makes sense that there'd also be empires that are in decline but still around.
That's one thing that I think Enterprise did right; showing us Nausicaans that hadn't completely collapsed into barbarism yet.

Empires that are on their way out is something that is barely explored at all. Are there any other notable ones outside of the Gorn and Nausicaans?

>>95887253
In SFB lore, the Tholians were once a Type II intergalactic civilization before an undefined calamity that must make what happened to the Romulans look like a mild inconvenience mixed with a slave revolt forced them into the Milky Way as refugees.
Which never really made great sense to me, as their ships are roughly contemporary in tech to the Federation when the mega-structure feats and level of galactic bureaucracy that implies would mean by TOS they'd be flying Universe Class equivalents or similar to breach the galactic barrier.

>>95882766
>it's just getting more hate because Enterprise has been around longer
Actually it gets more hate because it actively pisses directly on TOS itself all the way down to the aesthetic, while Enterprise was far enough distant in time both in-setting and IRL from TOS that anyone who didn't care for it could just ignore it or explain it away as an alternate timeline.

Shit New Wankers, by contrast, insists that we must not trust our lying eyes, that actually TOS looked like this and talked like this and had these values - ie looked and sounded and thought like modern Hollyweird types - all along. That it wasn't a sincere attempt at imagining the future that was actually state of the art in costuming and special effects for its time, but was actually just cheesy shit like Forbidden Planet, and we should just forget all that silly Kirk stuff and enjoy The Safe DEI Committee-Approved Adventures of Captain Milquetoast Fatherfigurethewritersneverhad instead.

Fuck SNW, and fuck its fans.

>>95888175
Weren't the Tholian ships in SFB basically just the cheapest and easiest to produce civilian craft they had while their proper warships were literally irreplaceable?

>>95868777 (OP)
>TQ
Beta quadrant

>>95888317
You'd think they'd still have technology from whatever method they used to bridge the Galactic Barrier with, or at least warp cores that would put everyone else besides the Andromedans to shame, especially given the fact civilian ships would be the ones who got to go fast to keep their galaxy-wide empire running.

>>95888368
Even prime canon has Tholians messing around with time travel, so it could be something as esoteric as the Tholians jumping to a different timeline, hitching a ride on a more advanced civilization from the future that won't mind to ferry them into the main galaxy, and then traveling to the 23rd century but in a way that attracts the wrong end of the Temporal Cold War with agents ensuring they can't just Xeelee themselves into an infinite loop of progression.

>>95887253
You come across a few in Voyager. The Krenim, the Trabe, the Vidiians.

>>95888612
Oh and the Hiirogen. It's probably because Voyager is traveling such huge distances, but the Delta Quadrant seems in rough shape, and not just because of the Borg. It's actually all secretly the Iconians' fault

>>95887253
the Klingons, the Romulans; DS9 explores the former, TNG explores the latter

>>95889037
Are they actually on their way out, or just transitioning as empires?
The Klingons for one have been around for thousands of years. Whatever their failings, they know how to run an interstellar empire and how to keep it together.

>>95891754
I think The Klingon Empire, as presented across TNG and DS9 is clearly in some sort of terminal decline. Praxis really did them in and neither K'mpec nor Gowron are at all fit to the task of setting things right. The Klingon invasion of Cardassia seems to be a last ditch effort to turn the decline around and even then, poorly thought out. By the time Martok is taking over, it's too little, too late.

>>95891754
>>95894148
the Klingons seem to both take and lose massive amounts of territory in very short order across every war they get involved in; they don't seem to have the patience (and in Enterprise, are said to be unusually dominated by the warrior class) for an occupation in any meaningful sense

it's true that an 8 year old Klingon is the equal of a human a decade older, but it's also true that we very rarely see Klingons reproduce - they talk about their children sometimes, but you never see pregnant Klingons or hear about Klingon maternity wards; even Sirella and Martok, who have apparently got a large family, speak of that kind of thing as though it's both an eternal struggle and long in the past; there are no Klingon babies after Alexander

this is an Empire with a terminal demographic problem which is worsened every time it goes to war and loses ships and bodies in huge numbers; Klingon medics no longer appear to exist in any meaningful sense, at least for life-threatening injuries, because of their terminal social problems

eventually they must collapse

the Romulans, aside from their supernova problems, have a major dissident crisis which increasingly sucks all attention and resource of the imperial government in; they're unaware of a massive warship being built for Shinzon with an illegal thalaron generator capable of sterilizing a planet; they're unaware of a Federation spy operating within their own spy agency - and unlike Starfleet, even when they successfully uncover the spy in that situation, they're unable to deal with him; they're unaware of the Federation deception that draws them into the Dominion war; they're unaware of a whole lot of things despite their massive inward-looking state surveillance apparatus, and they too are an Empire with a terminal demographic problem as a result

the claim of either Empire to have been around for thousands of years must be considered suspect by its very nature

>>95889037
>>95895343
Klingons being an empire at all feels in itself more like a lip service to the idea of unification and solidarity when in reality each Great House has evolved into individual nation states that are bound together by a council looser than United Earth.

>>95883360
>it just updated the sets
FUCKING
L
C
D
MONITORS

>>95895398
By the 2360´s, the Klingon empire is pretty much warlord China.

>>95874113
yes, the point of the gorn is they're not actual monsters and are just like the humans/federation in the end. they're a simple mirror of them. don't judge a book by its cover.

the short-lived conflict was a simple misunderstanding.

>>95876171
If we go by First Contact, then the Federation is 8,000 ly across. It is also known that the Galaxy is on average about 1,000 ly thick. Assuming the Federation is roughly cylindrical in shape, then this'd give us a volume of 5.03×10^10 cubic light years. Assuming an average stellar population density roughly equal to that of Sol's neighborhood, that means the Federation contains something to the tune of 219 million star systems.

If you had a thousand ships each exploring one of those star systems for one day apiece, it'd take you 599.6 years to explore them all.

If we account for the fact that the Federation isn't a perfect cylinder and its volume and thus number of stars is only 1/2 what's stated, that still gives 300 or so years to explore the whole thing.

Space be big, yo.

>>95895343
Give me the power to do a post-VOY Trek series and right from the start I'd establish that the Klingon Empire split apart into three competing empires, each representing one of the general stereotypes about Klingons. The largest is still based out of Qo'noS and are your Gowrons, the warrior types always looking for a fight and very concerned with external honor and optics; the smallest is based near the Romulan border and are your Duras's (but not actually lead by a Duras, that House's been through enough, it's ridiculous at this point that any might even be left), basically your TOS-era Klingons who are untrustworthy and talk a big game about honor but in reality are willing to do anything to win and are fine with underhanded tactics. And then there's the middle child, the Martoks/Worfs, who actually genuinely believe in honor and try to be more upstanding. They've still got societal problems but, notably, they are actually working on them.

The Empire, long united, has divided, basically.

They're a background element for the first season or two, but eventually one season opens up with the ambassador for the Martok-Klingons coming in to meet with the Federation president and formally petition for Federation membership. And so the entire season's ongoing story is dealing with that, the fact that them simply applying for Federation membership is causing problems with the other two Klingon rump states, the Federation weighing rejecting them for political reasons verses the fact that the Martok-Klingons genuinely want to be part of the Federation (they had a *popular vote*, for Chrissake), etc.

>>95897306
>they're not actual monsters

Arena never establishes what the Federation did that the Gorn thought was worth committing genocide and then luring in a Federation ship with perfidious messages

if the episode is meant to make you think "ah yes, the war crimes dudes are just us on another day" then baby, that's an episode Gene greenlit when he was drunk off his ass

>>95898805
>They came in space normal speed, using our regular approach route, but they knocked out our phaser batteries with their first salvo.

I don't know if this was specifically what the writers intended, but you could assume the Gorn saw the establishment of weapon emplacements as evidence of the invader's hostile intent.

>>95887253
The Orions according to old RPG lore. The Kzinti before they got btfo by barely warp capable humans. Also these guys in old game lore https://memory-beta.fandom.com/wiki/Sha%27Kurian_Ducal_Territories

>>95897429
Problem is that none of the maps show anywhere CLOSE to 8k light years. Sectors are supposed to be 20x20. My understanding is that the map in OP is now official. It's 480 light years across. So 8k is just bonkers nonsense.

>>95900081
Sorry--not "official." In-canon in-world unofficial, from Piccard. For whatever the hell the difference is.

>>95900081
It was always odd to me how often the 8k light year figure is quoted despite how obviously it contradicts the entire central premise of both DS9 and VOY. Maybe Picard just accidently misspoke, or maybe he intentionally lied to not mess up the timeline any further.

>>95897429
Not to mention the Federation is still expanding, having recently swallowed Cardassia and is in the process of admitting Ferenginar. There is never a shortage of places to boldy come to.

>>95901738
At a cruising speed of Warp 6, 8k would take 37 years to travel. It's just not consistent with the universe.

>>95897429
>>95902258
One of the few things from pre-TNG licensed products that I assume to be canon is the idea that the actual velocity at a given warp factor is hugely dependent on local gravitational forces, with the formula on paper only applying to deep space in between galaxies. So the ideal course is essentially doing mini-slingshots as much as possible to maximize velocity.

>>95902311
Personally, I prefer that the Federation simply be smaller. A lot more out there that hasn't been explored.

>>95902258
We have some idea of how large it is; when Worf suggests leaving Starfleet in "The Way of the Warrior", the Nyrbarrite Alliance is "a long way" away, but still known to the Federation. This is consistent with the Federation (and United Earth Space Agency) having sent out long-range probes and missions for about three hundred years, in addition to any star charts or scientific exchanges with other cultures outside the Federation (including but not limited to captured Borg information, which must cover a vast swathe of the galaxy).

Regulus III is about 300 light years from Bajor; Bajor is close enough to the Federation to permit regular traffic (the presence of the Maquis colonies along the same stretch of the Cardassian border implies that Bajoran space borders directly onto Federation space)

assuming this Regulus is the same as our star Regulus, about 80ly from Earth, then Bajor must be perhaps 200ly into the Alpha Quadrant from the A-B border; Regulus would then be on the fringes of Romulan space (this is broadly consistent with a 24th century galaxy which doesn't include the Federation, briefly depicted in "Past Tense", where Romulan signals are the closest subspace transmissions, from Alpha Centauri, and this is in the right direction for Regulus too)

some sources say Bajor is only 52ly from Earth, but this is fanciful when Earth knows all about the Klingons (90ly away) and other major species as of the 2100s, but knows nothing much about the Cardassians (at the height of empire and yet to expand to Bajor)

>>95902311
it's perhaps more useful to think of warp factors like torque; acceleration relative to the interstellar medium, with higher factors indicating faster acceleration, but even low factors over time capable of very high speeds; this would explain the UESA probe reaching the Delta Quadrant at Warp 1 without the need for wormholes, fjords or canals, because it has up to hundreds of years of constant, reliable acceleration to do so

>>95900127
I think it was meant to comport with the previously established figure from (I think) TNG, where it's stated that the Federation has explored about 10% of the galaxy. So the idea is probably that a large chunk of that 10% comprises its own territory.

>>95898872
>>95900081
These two problems are linked in canon by Cestus III: eventually a Federation colony anyway (or presumably, since Kasidy Yates' brother lives there and it has sufficient humans - or Vulcans - to have formed at least two baseball teams), Cestus III is "on the other side of the Federation" according to Sisko and Yates, taking "two weeks for a subspace transmission" ("Family Business"); in "The Way of the Warrior", Cestus III is "Eight weeks at maximum warp"; it's not clear whether this is for the Xhosa (presumably limited to something like warp 6) or for the Defiant as Kasidy is again speaking with Sisko and given the subspace delay, eight weeks doesn't seem unreasonable for the Defiant.

The speed of subspace messages is probably related to amplitude (the "loudness") with those waves degrading over time and distance unless amplified by a relay of some kind (this may be a conventional relay station, which we would assume exists throughout the Federation, or it may be a high-gravity stellar object as with Voyager's communications with Earth). Without a relay we have only Data's nonsensical dialogue from "Where No One Has Gone Before" ("traveling subspace, they should receive in fifty-one years, ten months nine weeks, sixteen days") and a few other sources (like Yates) to determine subspace radio speeds.

Admiral Haden, in "The Defector", is at Starfleet Command "on Lya III", 2:22 away from the Enterprise-D at the Romulan Neutral Zone (at the fictional Nelvana star system, broadly located somewhere in Leo).

When the E-D is dealing with the USS Phoenix in Cardassian space, Lya III (or Admiral Haden, who we presume is still there) is close enough for instantaneous subspace communications.

>>95905786
>>95898872
>>95900081
All of which implies that the distance between Cardassia and Romulus is around 2 hours for subspace radio, which means the Federation must stretch out much more widely in other directions - toward the galactic core or away from it - for Cestus III to be "two weeks" from Cardassia/Bajor by subspace.

It's possible that this is a DS9 problem - using antiquated Cardassian subspace transmitters means lower power signals and thus more time to reach the (better) Federation relays. But that wouldn't explain why Sisko doesn't offer to use the Defiant's coms to retrieve the message or why the station has to use the Defiant for coms with Starfleet (as would be necessary).

It's also possible this is a Cestus III problem - with antiquated subspace transmitters at their end. This is possible if we accept that the Federation never gets things done on time for big infrastructure - which we only really have the case of Betazed being invaded during the Dominion War ("In the Pale Moonlight") with "Betazed's own defence systems are obsolete and undermanned. The planet was theirs in less than ten hours."

This does suggest a certain Starbase 80 attitude to infrastructure renewal (though Starbase 80 could be in orbit of Betazed for all I know) but it's a stretch to say that Cestus III, an apparently thriving colony which by this time should be well within the Federation's borders and - if not - well equipped because of the Gorn threat, would not have powerful subspace transmitters. We're then down to excuses of gradation - "it's a civilian transmitter, the Starfleet transmitters are more powerful" - for which we have no evidence.

>>95897429
>It is also known that the Galaxy is on average about 1,000 ly thick
Don't do this for settings that have never implied 3D use of space.
As far as I am aware Star Trek treats the space as flat and therefor you should too.

>>95907809
>As far as I am aware Star Trek treats the space as flat

nope, the Federation doesn't stretch all the way to the galactic barrier, which means the Federation doesn't top or bottom the galaxy

>>95907809
SFB made a huge fuss about how they attempted to simulate 3D space only to find it didn't add much to the game aside make turns take even longer.
Besides, we have Wrath of Khan whose resolution was all about dispelling the notion of 2D space.

Do phaser rifles cause the particles to spin?

>>95909415
Only if you hold the gun sideways.

The Dyson Ring should had been called a Niven Ring because not only was Larry the one to come up with the idea but it would had fit the theme of naming stuff after the writers like Jefferies Tubes.

>>95905786
>Cestus III
>Eight weeks at maximum warp
Actually that jives w/ OP's map just fine. An Antares Class can travel at Warp 7. 8 weeks if about 68 light years at Warp 7. Look at the map in OP. I can't seem to find DS9 on it, but from the DMZ to the "other side of the federation" is 3-4 sectors. That'd be up-to 80 light years.

>>95912732
There's no canonical speed for an Antares class. Bajor is five light years from Cardassia Prime.

>>95913068
Memory Beta has it at Warp 7 and, since that's the best we've got and it's reasonable, that's a solid ass assumption. Especially since, if we go from the rest of the information we DO have, then everything falls into line perfect. The shortest distance from the DMZ to the "other side" of the Federation is 3-4 sectors per the Picard map. Warp 7 travels it in roughly 8 weeks.

All works out perfectly. Therefore it's the correct interpretation.

>>95913511
Memory Beta has Bajor 62 ly from Earth, which is totally unreasonable.

You're confusing abductive and deductive reasoning.

>>95915600
So does the map from Picard posted in the OP, roughly. Looks like you're just all around wrong, anon.

Is there any conventional power bloc in the galaxy that could take on the Federation in all-out war and have a chance to win?

>>95915659
Dominion are obvious, Klingons did in the Yesterday's Enterprise timeline, the main issue is going against the Federation in an all-out war while also having to deal with your neighbours.

>>95915659
The problem is that pesky plot armor. The borg, dominion, romulans and klingons all could have, at one time or another.

What if Khan found V'ger first?

>>95915659
Dominion and Borg. But the Feds are small fry compared to both of them. It's likelier the Dominion and Borg would both egg the other on after the Feds, with the intent of a surprise attack on the other while they were distractecd.

The Dominion and the Borg are the two biggest baddest powers in the galaxy.

>>95915627
Map's wrong. Background materials often are.

The Federation stretches all the way to Deneb - that's 2600ly from Earth - and this was a trivial enough journey that James Kirk made it before becoming Captain of the Enterprise.

>>95917189
All this mental gymnastics just so that you can cling to the notion that TOS wasn't inconsistent and nonsensical as all hell? lol

>>95915659
Maybe the Tholians if they really wanted to, depending on how much of the fact they are an extra-dimensional hyper-empire carries over to Alpha canon.

>>95918194
I’ve always wondered why the Tholians signed a non-aggression pact with the Dominion instead of chimping out about more immigrants in the Alpha and Beta quadrants.

I hate this ugly fat fuck and everyone who likes it

>>95915659
The Dominion could have tanked the Alpha Quadrant, but they wanted that cure. What's 70 years for an immortal shapeshifter? They'll send the Jem Hadar the long way and grind the Federation to dust.

>>95882766
I like SNW, but I am a pedantic bastard who hates how they redesigned the Enterprise when they already have an updated version of the original model.
No, I will not accept the STD model. Give me back my straight pylons.

>>95918866
Would you rather be stuck with the Odyssey or Neo-Constitution as a canon design?

>>95919650
Odyssey, Neo-Connie, while a nice-looking ship, is entirely made redundant as a light cruiser by all the contemporary designs around it.
Granted, I get the feeling that in-universe someone in a high place really, really liked the Constitution and had it commissioned not out of practicality, but in response to the Excelsior II.

>>95918866
I think its funny that the Enterprise F got decommissioned after less than 20 years of service. It implies to me that the Odyssey class was actually a colossal failure.

Will future Star Trek programs not have supercomputers that you can ask things. Because those are a lot like AI and progressives don't like AI at all.

>>95922202
The Starfleet Computer will say "No Data Available". AI will invent shit it thinks you want to here.

People keep mentioning the Dominion but weren’t they handily defeated in a limited war with the Federation?

>>95922258
No, just the Alpha Quadrant expeditionary force after being cut off from the Gamma Quadrant, and having to fight off the Federation, Klingons, and Romulans together. Even if the virus succeeded, the Dominion itself would still exist administered by the Vorta, and the war would continue conventionally once the Dominion expanded close enough to threaten the Federation without the wormhole. It's why the cure was important, so Odo could convince the Founders to work toward lasting peace.

Also, could the Q be beseeched to end a war you can’t win? Or is the prevailing wisdom in the galaxy is that it’s best to pretend the don’t exist and non-engagement as much as possible?

>>95922202
>progressives don't like AI at all
I like AI just fine, the problem is Corpos exploiting it as a content generator.

I wonder if Odo managed to reform the Dominion.

>>95923091
I'm sure he did and future Federation-Dominion relations weren't significantly impacted by hundreds of rogue Changlings killing virtually every experienced Starfleet officer in revenge for being tortured and experimented on.

>>95922388
And all you've had to do to oppose that outcome is also capitulate completely to the corporate conception of intellectual property and let a different set of corporations cement
>can I afford eight quadrillion dollars worth of laywers?
as the standard of ownership.

>>95923197
Obviously the problem is capitalism since it wins no matter what side of the argument you're on, therefore capitalism should be banned so we can get our future utopia Federation with AI that actually works properly instead of being garbage slop machines.

>>95923150
God I fucking hate the Picard show. What the fuck were they thinking?

>>95922321
If the Q decide they want humanity to prevail or fail, there isn't much you can do about it. Begging won't get you anywhere, but being passively entertaining to them might.
For all we know, they already have intervened, and intertwined that meddling into the fabric of reality so subtly none would be the wiser.
It doesn't really fit the character of the Federation to ask them for anything to begin with.

>>95919650
I'd rather have the Shangri-La.

>>95923944
>how do we make money off of nostalgic casuals?

>>95923944
>>95923150
I didn't know about that.

>>95926696
Then be blissful in your ignorance, because there´s a whole truckload of affronts like that in PIC.

>>95927130
STD, STPIC, STSNW, STLD all do not exist and never happened.

>>95927849
LD and PRO are good though

>>95928027
no they are not. they are 'good' like fucking lighting yourself on fire with napalm is 'good'.

>>95923091
I like to imagine the Dominion collapsed because of Odo's attempted reforms.
He would have wanted the Founders to rule with a softer hand and not retaliate as hard against sedition, leading to the Order of Things to slowly starting to unravel.

>>95928053
t. hasn't watched anything but the first seasons of each (trek shows always have a bad first season)

>>95928171
no. i watched all of LD and it just gets fucking worse. same for SNW. I've seen enough about PIC and STD (watched that to the red angel faggotry) to know how fuckawful they are.

just no. fucktard.

they're irredeemable trash.

So the "In the news" spammer came back here to argue with himself.

>>95928027
PRO is surprisingly fun, but I doubt anyone here has watched it since it's aimed at 10 year olds

>>95928666
Anon, just one mouse click away is an entire board dedicated to small colorful horses. Another mouse click away is an entire board dedicated to monsters that fit in your pocket.

>>95928187
>i watched all of LD

I do not believe you.

>>95928708
well i fucking did and each episode was more and more degenerate and disgusting and Anti-Trek.

Rolled 3 (1d5)

>>95928722
Now I REALLY don't believe you.

Hang on a second, lemme do something.

Rolled 1 (1d10)

>>95928749
Okay, step two.
I really wish you could roll multiple difference dice at once, but oh well.

>>95928749 >>95928753
Okay, this should be straightforward enough.

How is LD "Grounded" anti-Trek and degenerate? Personally speaking, the part where they go to Bozeman is something I'd describe as downright wholesome. Not only is it an obvious celebration of First Contact, both the movie and the in-universe idea of the event itself, but it's also important to remember that the Federation of the late 2300s is still a moneyless society, NuTrek hasn't changed that idea from TNG.

So while Bozeman may look like a soulless cash grab theme park in the vein of Disneyland, there is no cash TO grab. Bozeman looks like pic because United Earth wants it to - this is how they're choosing to present first contact with the Vulcans: as something designed for kids, as something meant to inspire childlike glee and wonder.

>>95928141
This is roughly what it feels like should happen. The Dominion has ruled pretty much entirely through fear. We can assume that shit like the quickening is par for the course as far as they're concerned. There's no easy way to step back from that kind of cruelty.

>>95928784
are you fucking retarded? at no part of the show do any of the characters act in any manner that WOULD NOT have fucking starfleet security stunning them and tossing them in the new zealand un-fuckening prison. with No chance of ever being allowed back in starfleet. the entirety of starfleet is portrayed as being so fucking NOT star trek, they may as well be the fucking ferengi.

everyone is stupid, greedy, selfish, and utterly degenerate and hedonistic psychotics. its just one giant fucking red flag after another.

>>95928938
Uh-huh. But we're talking about "Grounded". I want you to be specific to that episode. We're trying to prove that you've actually watched it, remember?

>>95929014
you are lying. there is not a single episode where mariner isn't a fucking total utter cunt. where boimler isn't a fucking incompetent retard who makes fucking barclay look good.

just fuck right off.

>>95929105
>you are lying

Mmn, no, that's what we're trying to find out about you, remember? You claimed to have watched every episode and determined that it is anti-trek and degenerate, so I'm asking you to describe how a specific, randomly chosen episode - S3E1 "Grounded" - is these things.

I'm calling you out, hombre.

>>95928784
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into.

They don't like something and they rationalize as to why. Just don't interact with them because they're going to have a melty no matter what you say.

>>95929312
no, faggot calarts slop eating cunt brain. you cannot force me to like fucking god awful abominations before christ and trek.

>>95928141
>>95928859
Odo was always authoritarian as all hell. He has no problem with military discipline of civilian people. His love of Kira is the only thing that kept him on the side of the Federation.

I would expect Odo's reforms to be codes that are strictly enforced, and finding himself at odds with the arbitrary, "do what we say and treat us as infallible" nature of the founders. Odo wants rules and regulations equally for everyone. He never demonstrates having any problem with heirarchical authority. But he absolutely despises hypocrisy. I would expect a government formed in his image to be just as authoritarian, but less corrupt. "The best laws apply to us, too." Draconian, but non-exploitative, holding themselves to the same standard that they hold everyone else.

>>95935620
That's what I was thinking. If the Dominion is no longer using lethal force as a way to enforce cooperation, it probably won't be long before Jem'Hadar hatchery worlds are converted to makeshift prison planets to contain the more rebellious elements.

Day two of the In the news spammer discussing with himself, in a dead thread.

>>95929105
>where boimler isn't a fucking incompetent retard who makes fucking barclay look good.
Boimler is shown repeatedly as one of the most competent people on the entire ship. Everyone just treats him like a giant retard. He was the only one to not fail his rigged drill. He was the only one able to accomplish all his tasks in the 30 minute buffer time window. He never struggled as a member of the Titan crew.

>>95935884
Why do threads about /tg/ topics terrify you so much, anon? I've been running a game of STA 2nd edition for 2 weeks and the last 2 Star Trek threads have actually been incredibly helpful, to me, in thinking through some of the things I'm using. Such as the fact that I was really iffy about trying to measure distances according to my understanding, until I discovered that literally the only person who is a dork for Star Trek who actually pushed back on my understanding, at all, was the anon who desperately wants the most-outlandish nonsense in TOS to be true. Whereas everybody else pretty much agreed that my interpretations of distances and speeds were correct. And therefore I had the confidence to better detail the sector I've given my players to explore according to my understanding of those distances.

It demonstrably, directly contributed to my Sunday ttrpg session I'm currently running.

Thanks, Star Trek General.

>>95935884
I’m SO glad Pickle Trek is finally getting criticized. It took way too fucking long and the circlejerk was unbearable. I’m even seeing some criticism on Reddit. “Uh yeah, this generic adult cartoon with some Star Trek references is totally the best Star Trek since DS9!”
I genuinely hope that in the following years the fucking cult-like obsession with it will backfire hard.

>>95935951
>That pic
>References Shatner's appearance on MLP
>"[My Little Pony is] a positive show about good "people" and friendship. Basically very in line with Star Trek ideals"

Hang on, lemme check something...okay, Season 7. I'll allow it, then. Because Season 8 and especially Season 9? Fuck no. It was in no way in line with Trek's ideals. ESPECIALLY the finale, "The Ending of the End", which is basically not only not in line with Trek's ideals, but in fact is even antithetical to the show's own ideals. In the big grand finale of a show about friendship, no one tried to make friends, not even someone who's literally styled as the Princess of Friendship.

Although you know what was in line with MLP's ideals and Trek's? Lower Decks. In particular I'm thinking of the Season 4 finale. Mariner is begging Nick Locarno, a thoroughly reprehensible human being, to come with her rather than get himself blown up by his own Genesis Device. The Cerritos retreats only when he continuously refuses and remaining would get the ship and everyone aboard destroyed.

THAT'S Trek. Trying to save someone who doesn't deserve it because one day, they might. Trying to be a better person even when it would be easy, and maybe even understandable, to be worse.

Speaking as someone who's watched every episode of both Friendship is Magic and Lower Decks, Mariner is a better person than Twilight Sparkle, or at least post-movie, Seasons 8 and 9 Twilight Sparkle.

>>95936063
You don’t have to come up with these elaborate excuses. It doesn’t really matter anymore.

>>95935918
The thread died due to the spammer.

>>95936164
Literally the 2 posts before your initial claim that it was "dead" was anon and I discussing Odo's authoritarian instincts and the possible future of the Dominion. Be less paranoid about policing /tg/. Contribute when you've got something to contribute, and don't sweat it when you don't, anon. You can always talk about something else you're more interested in, in one of the other threads.

>>95928784
LD is just slop. as such, it becomes whatever people project onto it.

i think it best reflects millennial trekkies who grew up into this lame future we're living in, but didn't give up completely.

but neckbeards >>95935951 will probably see woke onions shit and seethe, since they never left their mom's basement, never grew up, and cannot relate to growing out of tng and into the real world.

this guy >>95928938 is in the neverland and wants his fantasy to be perfect.

>>95936300
I never grew out of TNG, though. I still love it. I just also have room on my mental shelf for Lower Decks.

>>95928666
I enjoyed PRO, but it really was a slow burn.
I was making jokes that it felt more like Star Wars when the first few episodes aired.
Of course it was paid off with with the show becoming more Trek as they flew closer to the Federation, but for a Star Trek fan it took a while to get there.
I'd say the most interesting aspect of PRO was seeing some of the familiar sights as seen through both an animated format and a children's show.

Like for example, the way PRO showed the Borg was both very child-coded, and yet still very creepy in a way the Borg hasn't been for many years now.

>>95935620
The SFDebris guy explained it best.
While the Changelings generally have the same motivation/drive, in the Founders they were obsessed with order while Odo was obsessed with justice.

Any changes Odo makes would probably sacrifice some amount of order in the name of peace, but never justice in the name of peace.

>>95935916
It's crazy how people still see Boimler as a loser.
The man's the perfect Starfleet material.
He's skilled, learned, competent, good under stress, and you know he could get laid whenever he wants to.

Yeah he's still an ensign so he still needs gather some command experience, work on his confidence, and we actually see him getting better at that over the course of the series.

Can people not see past his screaming an nervous behaviour?

>>95912364
The Dyson is a Sphere entirely enclosing a star. I'm not actually sure if a Niven-Style Ringworld has featured in Star Trek as yet (Haven't seen some of the more recent series) but if one ever is then 'Niven Ring' would seem the sensible term to use.

>>95922388
This. The problem isn't AI, it's Corporations using AI to squish down on the little guy and steal more of the world's wealth for themselves.

>>95938456
I gotta wholeheatedly, completely and totally disagree with that. The Founders cared about power. Not anything or anyone else. They didn't care about the societies they governed. They didn't care about how well or smoothly or wretchedly those societies faired. They didn't care about stability or good governance or any such thing. They just cared about being obeyed and dominating everyone and everything else.

And Odo frequently, repeatedly demonstrated that his only concept of justice was "rules apply to everyone." That's a kind of "justice," I guess. But it's not concerned with "what's just." It's concerned with applying the rules. His obsession was with authority and its application. I'm not sure you can make a very good argument that he ever considered whether something is actually "just."

>>95936300
>I think it best reflects millennial trekkies who grew up into this lame future we're living in, but didn't give up completely.

That's me! Hi.

Remember how they wanted to make a S31 spinoff?
Thank Q that never happened...

>>95938541
Made this just for you.

>>95938541
Made this just for you.

>>95938851
Someone does own the number and it's not star trek. Boo. I was wondering if I could buy it.

>>95938541
Made this just for you.

>>95938806
>>95938900
>>95939010
Why don't you completely fill out your dumb meme BEFORE posting it next time?

>>95939024
I did but then I kept finding more things to make fun of. This is the final version though.

>>95938968
It'd surprise me if the number was still in use, given that it's from an ad from 1994.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t05mBb5L5Ts

M'ar is a cutie.

>>95938541
>Can people not see past his screaming an nervous behaviour?
I told you, they don't like it and they're going to invent reasons as to why.

This happens with every Star Trek series. Trekkies are autistic as fuck and hate change.

But seriously fuck DISCO

>>95943248
Did someone photoshop their OC (or themselves) over nurse Chapel?

>>95922251
>What do you mean "No Data"? He's sitting right there!

>>95944343
Sure, I just did

>>95876710
It was adapted from a short story where the alien antagonists were unambiguously evil and deserve to be wiped out, so this is probably why the moral of the Trek adaptation feels so awkward. The story is constructed from the ground up with assumptions that are incompatible with Trek's worldview.

>>95943248
It's actually been photoshopped. This looks to be the original.
You can tell the insignia's been redrawn too.

>>95868777 (OP)
Post delta and gamma quadrants then.

>>95868777 (OP)
Just now noticing the arms of the Galaxy in the background of these. Jesus Christ.

>>95897429
It's frustrating that they never showed just how explored the galaxy is in the 32nd Century. Even just an updated look at the galaxy map would have been good for lore speculation. But they seemed terrified of fleshing out that era.

>>95915659
Arguably, when the Federation is being spread thin during pre Picard, a lot of people could have and it's sheer dumb luck the Klingons were on good terms with them and the Romulans were also in disarray

>>95918866
>>95919650
Every Enterrprise past the E looks like shit, because the only good ship designers in the past 15 years have been working exclusively in animated Trek

>>95939010
I love Boimler but this is correct, he peaked pretty early but nobody notices because Rutherford peaked even earlier.

>>95953641
Well it helps that they actually consulted the Okudas and I think the rest of the old art department.

That's why the Cerritos got refit for S2.

>>95947161
Arex and M'Ress in SNW when?

>>95954558
Pretty based of them, it shows in LD being the only show that has good MSDs anymore

>>95958329
It is impossible to do a proper M'ress in this day and age. If they even tried, only one of three things would happen.
-She'd be a CGI character that couldn't interact with the human actors and disappear in the background as a result.
-She'd be in full prosthetics but ugly as hell, not looking, dressing or behaving like her at all. Like the movie Caitians seen in council.
-She'd be regular human with cheap brown makeup and a wig with cat ears on it, like those Caitians twins from Into Darkness but with less budget.

Maybe it's better that they never attempted to bring her back in SNW. That way we would never have to experience how they'd butcher her.
I'll give that to Lower Decks. They wanted a Caitian and realized they couldn't do M'ress properly, so they went in the opposite direction.
T'Ana could have been another Dr Pulaski, but they did her right and I know the Internet ended up loving the surly and sexually deviant cat doctor.
They even gave her the cat mannerisms.

>>95959137
>-She'd be a CGI character that couldn't interact with the human actors and disappear in the background as a result.
It's not the mid-00s anymore, TV CGI can do convincing looking characters with them using stand-ins in blue or green suits to interact with the human actors.

>>95959137
I think it's relatively easy to have an actress and just CG the fur, superhero costumes are CG'ed on so it's not like the tracking would be impossible. Plus she'd be a lot younger anyways so they could get away with making her look different, like short hair Uhura.

>>95959606
the saddest part is that this was still the best season

>>95960804
Elnor is moe.

>>95959417
They better make Uhura grow her hair out in later seasons.

>>95961788
It's already grown out for this one, she looks great. But I dont have a pic, just check the trailer

>>95965901
Why is there moss growing on the main deflector?

>>95970668
lmao

>>95978878
sexo

>>95970668
Environmentalism. Hekarans green peace doesn’t fuck around.

>>95982603
>>95965901
I like Balmung because she looks like a transition from Excelsior to Ambassador. I like Probert's design for the same reason, it looks like a step between the Ambassador and the Galaxy.

>>95983266
My headcanon is that the Probert is the original intended design, but Starfleet command wanted a mainline cruiser ASAP, with both the Connie and Shangri-La being retired. So the whole thing was rushed, using mostly existing technologies, with the hopes of revisiting the design after a decade or 2. The relatively disappointing performance of the Ambassador is what bought Starfleet Engineering the slack they needed to take 10 years on the Galaxy class.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0Tvlrgo89s
BEHOLD! The Brick!

>>95983847
It looks more advanced than the Ambassador. There were 20 years between the Enterprise-C and the Enterprise-D, so something had to fill that void.

>>95989085
Why your Remote Control's buttons so weird?!

>>95976238
Zeon build all of their starships with their decks upside down so as to be not weighted by gravity.
Which reminds me, does anyone have that manga where Kirk visits the mecha planet?

>>95970362
I don't dislike the Ross class, but I hope it doesn't actually replace the Galaxy until the mid 25th century, as one of the main selling points of the Galaxy was that it was purpose-built for the century-long service times the Excelsior was shoehorned into. Or at least, we get to see transitional ships that are mixtures of Galaxy and Ross components, perhaps Galaxies steadily retrofit to the new standard?

>>95991991
I'd say a lot of ship classes end up lasting a really long time so it's a fair assumption. Arguably most ship classes shoehorned into Picard make no sense because the classes they are meant to replace (Galaxy, Luna, Obena, etc) have basically just started to exist, are perfectly fine and have a long life ahead of them.

>>95992324
I can chalk up the Obena as an Ambassador situation where you had several transitional hulls to get from the Excelsior to the Excelsior II, with it being one of the awkward evaluation models in the bid to finally drag the class out of the 23rd century.

>>95992324
IMO the real mystery to me is what happened to all of the Galaxy's sister series like the Challenger and Niagara classes. You'd think being all based on the same technology as the Galaxy they would had all been upgraded together, but it seems the Excelsior's design principals won out and for the Dominon War in particular you had Excelsior parts put together like Mr. Potato Head while Galaxy-likes were limited to the Galaxy itself, Nebula, and maybe Cheyenne.

>>95992551
I would say it had mostly to do with the out-of-universe reason that all the models were one-offs to be wrecked for the Best of Both Worlds, but they were using CGI for the big group shots in DS9 so who knows?

>>95992551
Given the Nebula sticks around and the others don’t, I like to think the in-setting reason is that a lot of those Wolf-359 ships were in classes that were underperforming, never deployed in large numbers, or were naturally at the end of their intended service life. Take the Niagara. Otherwise Ambassador class components with Galaxy nacelles, that seems to me like a late in life refit to wring a little more life out of an older class. And then, in Beta Canon, the Springfield specifically is said to be a shitty modular design that was basically only ever intended to be given out to new member worlds to ease them into Starfleet. Or we know that the USS Rutledge was involved in the early days of the Cardassian border wars, meaning the New Orleans has been around for at least 15 years before the Borg show up. Could be that she never filled her mission brief particularly well and was in the midst of being shitcanned for a newer class.

>>95991991
They way I've always treated stuff like that new designs are replacements only in that they stop building the older class in favor of the new one rather than the way things work in modern navies where they start getting decommissioned as soon as the successor starts leaving the shipyard.

>>95997282
Starfleet seems to have ship shortage, while having more than enough crewmen

The summer ship fell into the water...

Okinawa-class is coming to STO sooner or later. And most likely 2 other TMP era designs. Most people think the other design is the Proxima-class from Star Trek Legacy.

>>96000599
Looking at this
https://youtu.be/LZnEBT1pAtM?feature=shared
started playing in my head...

>>95999908
One of the few ships we know for a fact floats, I suppose.
>>96000599
It's gonna be the Proxima and then a movie-era skin for the Ranger.

>>96002115
But isn't a movie-era Ranger just the Atlantis class?

>>96002345
ugh I hate this

>>96002506
Hard to tell. You look up Atlantis class now and you mostly get the 2400s STO model. At any rate, we can assume most if not all of the in game TOS ships will be getting a movie upgrade over the next few bundles.

>>96004952
Even though I know the chances of it happening are lower than the chances of a writer making a good Section 31 episode nowadays, I pray that we will eventually get some of the TOS FASA ship designs covered. And even more impossibly, SFM designs.

>>96005815
I don't know if that's what you intended, but you posted a canon design so I think it's one of the more likely options.

>>96004952
Also I mean this version of the Atlantis, the one that appears in the Stellaris mod that I swear on me mum I saw on STO before, if not bearing that class name.
Come to think of it, the Ranger itself looks kind of like if the Loknar was given a secondary hull post-refit.
>>96006059
Was it? I never recalled seeing it on any of the shows, unless it's like the Saladin where its appearances were all as viewscreen diagnostics.

>>96006071
Oh, that's in as the Legendary skin for the NX-class. Columbia class, which is confusing because that's what a lot of Beta canon stuff calls the NX class, or at least its refit.
For the TMP'd Ranger, I assume they'll look to make her fit with the look of the Pioneer a bit more.

>>96000599
Returning back to this post, here's a new screenshot of it.

Is the Daedalus the most extensively refit ship in all of Starfleet?
>First ones active before the NX class
>Last ones active during the Post-Dominion War era
What do you think the interior of those venerable elders look like?

>>96007356
Extensively? I'm going to say the Excelsior still beats it because of the sheer power difference between the NX-2000 and the Lakota while beta canon states Daeds were reactivated mostly as-is to be used as oversized shuttles.
There's probably hundreds of old Federation ships that aren't worth scrapping that get shunted into either auxiliary roles or sold off to the civilian side of the Federation.

>>96007419
>Sold off
Don't you mean donated? No money and all of that.

>>96007356
Maybe

>>95991991
I generally hate all of STO's designs, especially the bullshit ones that try to "update" older ships with new livery.

Besides, DM Phoenix made the perfect Galaxy/Sovereign hybrid over a decade ago.

>>96011647
https://vimeo.com/112736748

>>96011647
Sorry, two decades ago

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCho6AQ4cwc

>>96011647
Sorry, two decades ago.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCho6AQ4cwc

>>96011659
>>96011667
>>96011647
>>96011711
Looking at it, I'm not sure if Allegiance is it's own class, or if he just refined the design into Phalanx.

>>95935620
>>95935776
>>95938456
>implying Odo wouldn't share this old Earth comic he once read called Judge Dredd as inspiration for a new breed of Jem Hadar

When it comes to fan designs for ships, I tend to notice people sometimes failing to resist the urge to make their ships cooler.
It's so easy after all. Some more sharp edges, a more angular design, some sleek curves and of course the speed line decals.
A name that almost but not quite implies violence. And all of the best weapons.

I get it, I really do.
But the reality is that A. Starfleet ships have the power to glass continents no matter what they look like,
B. that the Federation and Starfleet really care about peace and diplomacy, and actively seek to project a non-threatening appearance.
C. There's more storytelling opportunities with ships that are a bit weaker.

So I recommend that when you next feel like doodling a new ship design, don't just resist the urge; actively go in the other direction.
Make it all round and soft. Sand off the edges. Make it blocky and un-aerodynamic looking. Put a weird module on there somewhere that ruins the shape.
Name it the U.S.S. Buttercup or something. As non-threatening a name as you can imagine.

I guarantee that you'll end up with a ship that will inspire stories and fire up your imagination every time you think of it.

>>96006878
Looks like a TMP era Titan, not bad

>>96007612
While not a monetary system, I do believe there has to be a capital-esque operation in process to decide who gets a warp-capable starship as their irresponsible use could easily cause lots of planetary damage.

>>96015624
To be honest the issue with Starfleet isn't individual ship power, but their fleet size being small for how much it could theoretically support. A fleet of 1000 Miranda-grade ships is going to crush a small group of a dozen Sovereigns or Odysseies any day.

>>96015712
It predates the Shangri-La?

>>96015745
A Miranda is going to get swatted when facing the Klingons, Romulans, Borg etc.
But that does make one forget that against like 80% of what it could reasonably encounter in or near Federation space it would win.

Planet of hats? Nausicaan pirate? Ancient minefield? Hostile gascloud? Literally every sub warp-5 civilization?
It's going to be just fine.

>>96017123
sex

>>96017220
Yes she is.

>>96017123
>>96017283
I know STO isn't allowed to use fan designs, but I really wish they would've used this design instead of the Matsumoto.

Like, the Matsumoto isn't a really bad design, I just feel like there could've been more to it.

>>96016632
>Ancient minefield?

that's a crew requirement, not a tech requirement

if they're not smart enough to understand the trap, they won't get out; the Defiant wouldn't have dealt with that Klingon minefield if it weren't for its special, special crew (the Valiant would be atoms in the same situation)

>>96018078
It's inelegant.

>>96018983
it hasn't even got a trunk

>>96018730
The Miranda gets the crew it deserves.

>>96020533
California captains ought to count their blessings they aren't Miranda captains.

>>96015624
Where does this fall on the "cool-to-cuddly" meter? The idea was a Federation ship that incorporates a Vulcan style warp ring instead of the usual nacelles.

>>96020616
D'Kyute

>>96020616
Does it rotate?

>>96020622
Yes, mounted like a gyroscope! I think the idea was being able to make rapid micro-jumps in various directions without the whole ship needing to come about. Some sort of scout craft clearly.

>>96020643
I have an image of it doing warp donuts that I can’t get out of my head.

>>95868777 (OP)
Romulan.

>>96015624
Counterpoint: making an aggressive warship and then naming it something silly like USS Anne Frank or USS Gandhi is equally acceptable and hilarious.

>>96026814
I'm still waiting for STO to add the Wallenberg - "He saved thousands from genocide. Now it's time to dish out a little genocide of his own."

>>96026814
The USS Helen Keller will make 'you' blind and deaf if you cross her.

>>96026814
In fact there is a USS Ghandi. Thomas Riker was assigned to it.

Belknap gets no love these days

>>96026814
SOME ONE doesn't know who ghandi was.

>>96030367
True. Wish they'd bring this to STO. Its a old design from the 1980s, so I would think they'd be allowed to use it.

>>96026814
the existence of the USS Gilgamesh implies the existence of the USS Jesus Christ

the existence of the USS Malinche implies the existence of the USS Quisling

the existence of the USS Yamato implies the existence of the (Galaxy-class) USS Bismarck

>>96030678
If it was in any sort of Activision game, then they could. Seems they got full permission to use models from those.

>>96030689
Bismark and Tirpitz feel like they should be Excelsiors.

>>96030723
with phaser arrays, quantum torpedoes and ablative armour

>>96030723
hey, I don't build the fleet, I just read the hulls

>>96030689
Calling Malinche a traitor is a gross mischaracterization of what happened.

>>96030689
Ah yes, the sister ships Christ, Abraham and Muhammad.

>>96032136
just because the Aztecs were assholes doesn't mean she didn't sell her own people out by going against them alongside the conquistadors, who were also assholes

>>96030689
the USS Ark Royal is named after a series of famous British ships, the USS Mary Rose is called after a famous sauce

the existence of the USS Bellerophon implies the existence of the USS Sisyphus

let's not even get started on the USS Crockett, clearly by the 24th century they've forgotten what Texas was fighting *for* at the Alamo

>>95938619
This is a good reading of Odo if you completely forget his entire character arc through Ds9, sure. Season 5's episode 8's Things Past, for example, where Odo confronts the injustice of his own actions in applying rules to the Bajorans during the occupation leading to the execution of four innocent people, and realizing by the end of the episode the illegal actions the real culprit took were justified in fighting the occupation.

>>96032713
They weren't her people though, unless you're trying to generalize and establish a kind of solidarity that did not exist at the time.

>>96033177
so if Vulcans came to Carbon Creek in the 1950s as invaders and Maggie and Jack chose to aid Mestral as interpreters and guides, that'd be OK because China and the USSR would get stomped too?

>>96033546
I dunno, were Maggie and Jack slaves sold to the Vulcans to be raped for their pleasure?

Like I said, you're trying to take history and break into black and white events. That's fine for children, but as an adult you're supposed to understand nuance.

>STO added the ability to implant Ceti eels into your enemies brains

No warcrime left behind.

>>96016632
My head canon for how the first Cardassian border war went down is that the Cardassians attacked Federation colonies and ships and thought they were hilt shit…until they finally decoded a computer and realized that the entire time they’d only been fighting civilian transports and simple scout and police craft. And also realized that the Federation was ten times larger than they thought it was.

And then an Excelsior showed up (maybe even Excelsior herself) and proceeded to Wolf 359 them. Like, shooting to disable rather than kill, but the one Excelsior took out dozens of Cardassian ships and then parked itself in orbit over the homeworld and offered to open up diplomatic negotiations so as to end this conflict before things could escalate out of control.

>>96040913
They're not that far behind the Federation and that'd be awfully sloppy of the Obsidian Order.

What 'is' the main deficiency of Cardassian starships? Is it the fact they're still stuck on the old Warp scale, which wouldn't matter as much for border defense? Their phasers appear to cut through Federation shielding just fine, even in a top-of-the line vessel like a Nebula.

>>96041130
It's less a deficiency of the ships themselves and more a deficiency of the government as a whole, being an imperialist military junta despite having relatively low amounts of resources compared to its neighbours. The Federation can punch hard as fuck if it wants to because it relies on diplomacy and exploration so much, meaning it has a massive resource and population base it can mobilize if it needs to. The Cardassians are at full mobilization 24/7 which means it doesn't have an extra gear to jump up into if it needs to.

>>96040913
Yeah that's way too far of a power gap. I figure that the trend of the Cardassians deploying 3 Galors in a squadron is informed by the border wars. That's what they perceive as being necessary to take on a Starfleet cruiser.

>>96041130
I've always imagined them as the collapsing Soviet Union, but without the overwhelming numerical edge needed for Soviet battle strategy. They're almost always in a squadron, whereas the Federation hero ship usually flies alone. In an even numbered fight the Feddies would win every time.

I imagine the wars were the Cardassians picking and choosing their raids carefully and Starfleet being stretched too thinly to do anything about it. It was probably human colonists in a disputed zone getting zapped for being where they didn't belong and the Federation wasn't going to go on an offensive war over it, but they would try to protect their people as best they can.

>>96041511
Addendum: the economic sanctions probably crippled the Cardassian Union and I'm sure Starfleet Intelligence was out there pushing insurgent and dissident groups.

The resource poor cardassian union is stuck building fleets of space ships. They cannot afford to build a star ship. Instead they pump out 6 galors and call it a day. Classic parity through numbers advantage ploy.

>>96042942
Easy way to bully your militarily weaker neighbours like the Bajorans, it only turned out badly when they bumped into the Federation.

>>96042946
Yeah. I dont think they ever got past the culture shock of meeting a polity that built starships as its base class of vessel between its vast, vast members.

Think about it. You're gul Fuckwit, and you're jockeying for advancement with guls Retard and asshole. In your little wing of 3 galors. You're watching your crew for disloyalty and order agents spying on you.

And then theres this ugly big white thing hanging their in space. It calls itself a feedurayshun uss Farragoot. So you order your crew to attack. And your disruptors and phasers... do nothing.
Only when the other two galors add their fire, does the wierd saucer and cylinders shaped thing seem to siffer any damage.
Wherupon woth pinpoint fire it punches starbase grade phaser and torpedo shots through your ahields and destroys your weapons with deadly accuracy. Whereupon it refrains from slaughtering you and demands your surrender.

>>96041091
>They're not that far behind the Federation
They're not that far behind the Federation by the 2370s. Decades of focusing on military, military, military could allow them to close the arms technology gap while also explaining how a species with access to magic space technology can nevertheless be consistently described and depicted as being so poor and lacking in resources.

>>95868777 (OP)
How did the Battle of the Binary Stars take place on the far side of the Romulan and Federation empires when the Klingons gathered the fleets of their Great Houses there? Did they just walk through the Romulan territory unchallenged?

Did the NX-01 basically make the trip to Q'onos through the entire territory that the Federation would expand through and claim over the next 100 years? They basically forced a war with the Klingons by doing that.

Hupyria and Maxia are placed within Ferengi space, but not Ferenginar itself? And why are they in Federation blue but still in orange-colored Ferengi Alliance territory?

How do the Marquis use the Badlands for all their major operations when it's on the far side of Cardassia from their homes in the Demilitarized Zone?

How was the Dominion able to use the Neutral Zone to strike Federation starships? Is the implication that the Dominion conquered the entire upper portion of the map up to the Neutral Zone?

Why is Federation Space so empty in the regions explored by the NCC-1701? If this is meant to represent SNW continuity how can there be a Demilitarized Zone or Ferengi Space?

>>96043085
battle of what? never happened, crazy.

>>96043031
Yeah the Cardassian Union spent years buying, copying, trading or stealing tech wherever they could to catch up with the other major powers of the galaxy.
They were so high on their own success in conquering Bajor that they thought they were the big dog now, and could even match the Federation.
But like, even here on Earth being just 40 or 50 years behind on tech is the difference between the USA and North Korea.
NK is still dangerous; their bullets kill just the same as everyone else's; but no one really believes they could actually conquer anything.

So after they got their trashing the Cardassians dug in even harder and spent all their resources, all their labor on catching up militarily.
After all they had a manifest destiny that they had to become one of, and eventually the only, Great Power in the galaxy.
They would always brag and boast and bluff about their power, but the resource drain it cost them was untenable.
And in the end they couldn't even hold onto Bajor.

>>96042942
One of the reasons the Cardassians could even afford to use wolfpack tactics with their ships was because, especially early on, Cardassian territory was significantly smaller.
Even at its height the Cardassian Union was dwarfed by the Federation in size.
I've noticed that maps tend to paint Cardassian territory as particularly generous, but I attribute that to the space rimwards or 'west' of Cardassian space being blank.
This is Star Trek; I doubt that space is all empty. It just happened that the Cardassians ran into the Federation first before encountering their other neigbor.

>>96043085
map's wrong, doesn't even have Deneb which Kirk and others visited and later 1701-D human crew were from, we've been over this

>Did the NX-01 basically make the trip to Q'onos

that's and ENT problem tho, and yes, and they did it in 4 days which is not merely faster than the warp 4.5 the ship was supposedly doing at that time, but fast enough that it would have brought Voyager home in 9 years

but they also set Qonos as 90ly away from Earth, Vulcan as 16ly from Earth etc

there is however no reason to assume that the Klingons radiated out from Qonos in all directions, it's likely that for at least some of their ancient spacefaring history going near Earth got you kidnapped by any number of highly advanced races looking for slaves/worshippers, so they have reasons not to have gone that way (as do the Romulans), and their capital being on the edge of the empire is no weirder than DC being on the edge of the US

>Cardassia

is 5ly from Bajor, the scale of the map doesn't allow much detail of systems at this level

>>96043491
If you look at the old official map, to the west of Cardassia is a giant Breen empire as big as the Federation. To the south is the Talarian Republic, which fought the Federation to a stalemate. And to the north is the Tzenkethi Coalition which the Federation was afraid to fight. Cardassia has nowhere to grow.

>>96043491
In the end, they did get swallowed by the Federation after one provocation too many, which begs the question as to why the Feds waited until after they sided with the genocidal space flubber to annex them and prevent the Maquis from revolting and the Klingons attempting to invade them? It would had been better for everyone involved, including Cardassia.

>>96044573
Cardassia did not want to be a member of the Federation until after it got wrecked by the Dominion, and the Federation never forces membership on its members.
One can also argue it wouldn't fit to criteria to be a Federation member, but if the rape planet Tasha Yar came from can get Federation membership me thinks those stipulations are pretty lax so long as the government is willing.

>>96044611
>the Federation never forces membership on its members
Yeah but it sure brings pressure on others to push them towards membership.

Daily reminder that the majority of the wars that Federation have been involved in basically go as follows:
>Federation colonizes worlds very close or on disputed planets next to a neighboring powers border without asking
>Neighboring power asks them kindly to please leave and not to do that
>Feds go "Why you so intolerant?"
>Neighboring power then has to resort to force to get Feds to leave
>Feds act all surprised that they are being attacked and claim its a defensive war
EVERY. FUCKING. TIME.
FUCK THE FEDS!

>>96044611
The Federation is more like the European Union than the United States of America in that regard.
Young America would invite new states, but it would also buy, trick or straight up conquer them if it desired them.
The EU by comparison only invites the willing, and leaves each member with its original government, language and culture. With all the good and bad that entails.

Look at that sea of blue on the Federation map. How many small empires are hidden underneath it?
Vulcan, Andorian and Tellarite territories, run by local government under their own laws are still there.
Some others would be too small to even see on a map this scale, with maybe 3 or 6 planets of their own.
Pretty much every empire that we saw on TOS.

>>96044031
Maybe ten or twenty years from now the Cardassian Union, Talarian Republic and Tzenkethi Coalition too will have been coloured blue.
Retaining their cultural identity and right of self-government while enjoying all the advantages of being a member of the UFP, in return for giving up their ambitions of galactic domination.

All the Federation has to do is wait. Eventually, inevitably, others come to them.

>>96047342
I just remembered the TNG episode Clues, where they find a xenophobic, isolationist race that just wants to be left alone.
And they respect their wishes and mark the area as no entry.
So we know of at least one example here; but there are probably others. Either/or xenophobic, isolationist whether culturally, socially, biologically or otherwise existing entirely separate inside Federation territory.

Or the Malcorians, from the TNG episode First Contact. Recently warp-capable they asked to be left alone to adjust culturally to having become aware of the wider galactic community.
One can imagine they're not the only species that asked to be left alone for similar reasons.

>>96047110
Shut up spoonhead

>>96047110
Just like root beer

>>96047342
>The EU by comparison only invites the willing, and leaves each member with its original government, language and culture. With all the good and bad that entails.
Ha ha ha ha ha.
oh wait. you were serious. let me laugh harder!
A HA HA HA HA HA!

>>96047110
Bitches can get a treaty to establish a neutral zone if they're so bothered about it. Don't jump into a half-wars because you're upset about diplomatic ambiguities, and *then* start bitching and moaning when they turn into full wars that result in your ass getting annexed.

>>96047110
More like

>Federation sees a perfectly suitable planet for colonization. No other non-native life present, is completely untouched by any other power.
>Federation sets up a colony.
>Every power within pissing distance: "DAS OUR WORLD!"
>Feds: You had centuries to colonize and officially claim this planet, the hell you mean its yours?
>Nearby power convinces itself it has any capability to enforce its baseless claim, attacks the federation with its limp-dick fleet of obsolete ships
>Federation slaps their shit with barely any effort required, its people morally offended at the idea of violence rather than being physically impacted in any significant way
>Feds offer a peace treaty, willing to treat the opposing power as an equal when everyone else nearby knows its more like an adult convincing a tantrum-throwing child why he is a fucking idiot
>Defeated power sulks like a little bitch, Feds understand and dont hold it against them

>>96047600
I get you.

The Federation is closer to the EU than the USA in how it functions though.

>>96048217
Imagine if tomorrow aliens arrive and start colonizing Mars, Venus, Europa, Ganymede, Titan etc.
If we'd get pissed they'd reply:
>"You could have colonized these easily ages ago if it weren't for your constant wars and inability to keep a civilization going for more then a few centuries."
>"You're welcome to come visit whenever you like but you snooze, you lose."
>"We even put a little dome and an informative plaque around that cute little mars rover you guys left. The kids love it."

>>96048367
Imagine if strange men with pale skin and hair on their faces rolled up to your continent and started telling you pieces of land belonged to them and only them, etc. etc.

Colonization is a game for early birds and power players, anon. No use whining about it.

>>96048367
An individual planet is different from a solar system and you know it.

Also, if you cant defend territory, it isnt yours. Just the reality of things.

>>96044031
this one has Deneb (and in the proper position, more or less, given we have a fairly wide range of possible distances for it) but makes the same error of scale that the later maps make

the central Federation is scaled so that there's no more than 50ly between the Romulan NZ and the Cardassian empire; some of this is no doubt because it's hidebound by throwaway references to stars from TOS (when time and distance were less important because it was just "the future"); but the old TOS Enterprise used to regularly travel vast distances; "hundreds of light years"/"three weeks (subspace)" in "Return To Tomorrow"; "hundreds of light years from Earth" in "Miri"; "millions of light years" in "All Our Yesterdays" (which is now surely retconned as an error of Spock's speech); "a thousand light years" in "That Which Survives"; "Nine hundred light years from Earth" in "The Squire of Gothos"; the TOS Federation, or at least the range of its ships, is vast compared to this pocket empire

the Federation should snake out to Deneb but for the sake of namechecking every TNG and DS9 location on a double-page spread they've put the Typhon Expanse weirdly close to Earth - and so massive it would be visible from Earth since it's closer than Qonos; yet it's "never been explored" by a Federation vessel (despite the USS Bozeman being trapped there for 90 years and having left starbase only three weeks before becoming trapped)

if anything Picard's "8000 light years" line is probably more correct; not necessarily as a flat plane or bubble, but at its greatest possible extent in a straight line; the problem is that various stories have placed planets, stars etc conveniently close and inconveniently far away without consideration for what this does to continuity across other shows and movies; you can change the warp scale between series, but you can't change a light year

>>96044031
What goes on in here?

>>96048944
Kzinti nonsense.

>>96048944
I know the map plays with scale a lot here, but how many systems could that spot have?
dozens? hundreds?
To even see a smidge of colour on this map at all would be an area that could easily have a dozen habitable planets in it.

>>96049189
The book that those maps are from itself has a good explanation of sectors. Basically each of those sectors is a 20 light year cube, containing 10s of systems, but the verticality of the map means that you’re probably seeing 3-4 sectors deep in any particular spot.

>>96048829
>and so massive it would be visible from Earth since it's closer than Qonos; yet it's "never been explored" by a Federation vessel (despite the USS Bozeman being trapped there for 90 years and having left starbase only three weeks before becoming trapped)
I see your point, but space is fucking huge. I imagine part of Starfleet's job is to periodically map out starlanes for navigational hazards and deep space to just catalog weirdness. There's fucking nothing out there for a very long way even in the most traveled routes. Stumbling upon an invisible negative space wedgie big enough to trap two starship in the middle of fucking nowhere is astronomically rare (no pun intended).

>>96025128
>Chekov, plot a course for NYOOOOOM

>>96048944
catgirls

not even kidding

>>95918866
The best design philosophies go TMP > STO > TNG > Everything else

>>95918866
I didn't hate it when it was a fan design for the whale milking MMO of a dead franchise, but actually trying to make it and other licensed stuff """canon""" just emphasized how CBS dreck is irredeemably trash with zero redeeming qualities.

>>96051495
You ugly motherfucker

>>96051534
I'll see you your bitching and raise you Phase 2 and the Oberth, grandparents of the TNG design philosophy

>>96051662
TNG's design philosophy was like 50% Gene Roddenberry's drug addiction, 30% Andy Probert's autism, and 20% model kits because the art department has to gin up SFX with string and tissue paper.

>>96048217
This attitude is what lead to the first war against the Klingons.
Klingons were actually remarkably patient and gave Feds several warnings before they attacked.
Whole basis was
>Feds colonize a world near Klingon space
>Klingons go "fine but please don't come closer!"
>Feds then start colonizing more worlds near Klingon space
>Klingons go "WTF are you doing? We asked you politely? Stop doing this!"
>Feds ignore it and keep going then go "OH SHIT THE KLINGONS ARE ATTACKING? WHY WOULD THEY DO THIS?!"

The Feds learned absolutely nothing from this and did the same thing to the Dominion. Jadzia Dax basically declared war by saying they'll keep coming when the Dominion said please keep on their side of the galaxy.
>>96048367
And then start saying you are a piece of shit and should be like them.

>>96048944
Nothing. The catians and federation maintain an entire battlegroup, a BATTLEGROUP mind you, of cruisers and such heavy weight ships specifically to enforce a No-Go zone. As the Kzinti are tech lunatics. Let them have a replicator and they'll turn it into a fucking transdimensional teleporting beam death star laser for deleting enemy planets at a million light years distance. And then use it on everyone who is NOT a kzinti.

They make the klingons look staid and refined, calm and peaceful.

>>96051028
More like fuck ugly batcat rabid sociopath things.

>>96053171
>>96053175

Seeing as thread is in autosage, I’ll just say I really like the Ventura from the new STO designs. Don’t usually like TOS-ified version of TMP design. (The TOS Miranda can fuck off and die forever.) But the Ventura leans a little more into the physical models Krause likes to make. The nacelles in particular tickle some part of my brain.

https://youtu.be/uvaBhd_mpvs?si=FYsspSpleLzP7whE

The TOS version of the Cali is sex.

>>96049679
yeah but look how massive it is on the map, it's easily close to the size of a full sector; LaForge even says

>As you can see, the Typhon Expanse is huge. If we want to chart the most remote star system, we'll have to launch a probe within the next few hours.

so it at least contains multiple star systems and therefore stretches over light years; the size of it on the map is probably reasonable, but it's closer to Earth than Qonos and about the same distance as the First Federation - which is placed here so that the UFP encompasses it and has expanded beyond it to a distance of about 100ly from Earth

the idea that there's a Federation all the way to Zakdorn (top right above the Romulans) behind the Romulans just makes it more ridiculous that the Typhon Expanse has never been explored (never mind the fact that it was clearly *being* explored by the Bozeman 90 years earlier, and none of the searches for an entire missing Miranda-sized ship even scanned those systems)

it's a bad map made for a particular physical format that imposed limitations on it: it was never meant to be examined in this detail, though the compounding of that error by using it as the basis for the on-screen maps has been entirely unforced (production costs notwithstanding)

it needs to be re-done from scratch with every script scoured for real-star names and references to stardates, speeds of ships, descriptions of what the ship has been doing for x days/week/months prior to the episode; aside from TOS - which will provide headaches - the biggest and most egregious error is probably the hypergiant visited by the NX-01 (as no Earth starship has previously been within 10ly of one) which creates a few headaches of its own

>>96057588
>>96049679

that would give us a real picture of the extent of the federation, and can be done in 3D as an online project, losing none of the detail of the extent of these star empires as you would on a printed page, and can even mirror the existing astrometrics graphics if you want to be a huge nerd about it

however I don't want to research, make and host a commercial-grade product for Paramount at my own expense, so I'll stick to bitching about this wrong-ass map instead, it's not like it's the 90s where you'd get a book deal out of it

>>96057588
I'm not saying it's a good map, I'm saying it's possible for weird phenomenon to go undiscovered, even if it's right next to Earth. That's all.

>>96002115
New Ranger skin droppen