Dog kobolds or lizard/dragon kobolds ?

ratbolds

>>95899269 (OP)
>>95899278
All at the same time and they're naturally at war with each other.

>>95899269 (OP)
Neither.
The weird combination dog-rat-lizard things they were before WotC shat the bed in 2000.

>>95899269 (OP)
I understand dogbolds being a translation error but why did Wizards turn them into tiny dragon people? I can't even blame World of Warcraft because I'm certain they are weird ambigious rat things there.

>>95899440
Weird looking rat goblin things with big backpacks.

>>95899440
>Translation Error
Not so much that as just not having enough information to start.
Jun Suemi, the artist for Wizardry on the NES, who originated the Japanese dogobold didn't have text to work from. He had the image in >>95899364 and that's it. On twitter he asked about western lizardmen kobods and in the convo it came down that he read the scales as armor. Given the legs and collar, I don't blame him.
Dogbolds go back as far as 1983 when Wizardry was ported to Japanese and got its manga-style instruction manual.

>>95899364
No, the dog-'bold was a Japanism before AD&D got started, while the association with dragons goes back to literally every creation myth they have ever been given. So the decision to shift to clearly-reptile Kobolds wasn't "shitting the bed", it was follow-through on lore removing the niggling abberation of something by and for dragons having limited visual resemblance to them.

And even then the profile is similar enough between the 3e Monster Manual and the AD&D 2e Monstrous Manual that if you aren't paying close attention to the details it's plausible to miss there being a re-design at all. Especially if your eyes are shit enough to miss the whiskers.

>>95899569
>while the association with dragons goes back to literally every creation myth they have ever been given
That myth was made after the decision to make them into the halfling of dragonfolk
Back in BECMI they were one of the many humanoid breeds descended from the genetically unstable beastman

Dragons are feeble creatures that can be killed by a level 2 party in a balanced encounter, WotC made the right decision into making sure kobolds are dragon worshipping meat shields in order to make battles feel super epic as your party fires off magic, features and additional actions left and right

>>95899269 (OP)
I like little dog people better. Feels more "vermin" like. I like kobolds as mine-infesting little bastards. >>95899278 works fine, too. I want them to be hungry, shitty little vermin that are a mild natural disaster that sometimes plague mines.

Furbolds cuz I'm a sicko

>>95899269 (OP)
Embrace carcinisation: crab kobolds are the inevitable future.

>>95899269 (OP)
Dog. Because then people won't bitch about reptile boobs.

>>95899269 (OP)
Kobolds were rat dog lizard things from 1974 to 1997, so 23 years

Kobolds have been draconic creatures from 2000 to 2025, so 25 years.

This would mean that they have been fairly consistent for 25 years as opposed to the inconsistent mess for the 23 years of TSR.

So draconic would be my pick.

>>95899269 (OP)
>>95899278
A combination of all three.

Both

Lizard type is good too

>>95899569
>the dog-'bold was a Japanism before AD&D got started
Wrong. While there may have been some dog youkai Japanese myth to help guide the imagery, the term Kobold was not introduced into Japan until the localization of Wizardry in 1983.
>while the association with dragons goes back to literally every creation myth they have ever been given
Correct only due to rectonning a void of lore. Kurtulmak being one of Tiamat's brood was invented for 3E. Before then he had no backstory at all, let alone a concrete one.

The transformation of the strange mutant mine things into small lizardfolk was in fact shitting the bed.

>And even then the profile is similar enough between the 3e Monster Manual and the AD&D 2e Monstrous Manual that if you aren't paying close attention to the details it's plausible to miss there being a re-design at all.
You have to pay close attention to see the copied terminology, not the other way around. Don't double down on this. Just take your L and move on.

>>95899569
>while the association with dragons goes back to literally every creation myth they have ever been given.
No? Kobolds are a real spirit in real life folklore. They are a german goblins, which is why OD&D and Chainmail have them as a goblin variant.

>>95899269 (OP)
dogbolds are proof that 'old good new bad' is not a universal truth

>>95899269 (OP)
I like the look of the dog ones, but I feel like they overlap with gnolls.

>>95899814
Outside of the Monster Manuals weird pug thing and Di Terlizzis elongated gnome, all art of kobolds makes them out to be lizards.

>>95899914
>a goblin variant
In early editions, goblin wasn't a creature type but used the Old English meaning of small mischievous/evil humanoid "monster" basically the English version of Japanese youkai or Norse troll. Once the goblinoid type appeared kobolds very much stopped being goblins.

>>95899747
>rat dog lizard things
I hate these threads because a lot of people are fucking retarded when it comes to language.

Kobolds were described as having ratlike tails and doglike heads. A lot of really retarded people simply do not understand the difference between ratlike and rat. Or doglike and dog. Something that is "-like" means it is vaguely shaped like the thing it is referencing. It does not mean it has the exact thing being referenced. So a doglike head would mean a head vaguely shaped like a dogs, and not a literal dogs head, like the shitty Monster Manual pug head.

Kobolds are not rats or dogs, they merely have things vaguely shaped like either, but they are very much covered in rust red scales. Incidentally, they also lay eggs, something introduced many years before 3e, which indicates they are more lizardy than people here want to admit.

But if you take into account the fact they layed eggs (long before 3e), have scales, and generally look like a lizard, draconic kobolds make the most sense. The problem is that their art was handled by people who didn't respect the description and decided on some very stupid ideas (once again the fucking pugfaced thing and fucking DiTerlizzi).

Here, a kobold from a CYOA book called Return to Brookmere.

Both

>>95899269 (OP)
Dogbolds and it's not even close. Yes I know they were originally described as scaly. Yes I know that the doglike interpretation is a Japanese idiosyncracy. Don't really care though. I like them better. Lizardmen and snakemen already exist and serve any need I might have for scaly tribal monsters just fine. Dogbolds, meanwhile, are human's best friend.

A thing I hate about dogbolds, there is already a fucking dog race you can use in D&D, and they are called the Lupin.
The Red Steel supplement for Mystara has a whole thing about the Lupin and the many dog breeds that comprise the race. There's even stats for tribal wolves.

They embody everything you dogbold lovers want in a fucking dog race. Instead of destroying kobolds for your human height dog people, just use fucking lupin.

>>95901524
>It is possible that the Aardovai were originally a sort of Beastman race. However, no proof of this exist, except the fact that the Kobolds themselves are dog-like creatures. Indeed, this seems to at least suggest the possibility that Kobolds have some Lupin blood - which could be possible, since the Kobold tribes derive from the Wogar migration, which spent a significant time in the Yazak Steppes.
Dogbold Kings keep winning.

Besides, Lupin are just dog-flavored savage beastmen in Mystara. I don't want Lupin. I want dogbolds. Specifically Dungeon Meshi dogbolds. If that makes the scalebold enjoyers mad, all the better.

>>95899269 (OP)
dead kobolds.

>>95901302
I love this shoop. thanks anon.

>>95899269 (OP)
My first contact with AD&D was Baldur's Gate and kobolds always seemed doglike to me. The lowres 2D graphics didn't show much detail when fighting them in the Nashkel mines. NPCs both describe their smell "of damp dogs and stagnant water" and that their language "sounds like small dogs yapping". So yeah, bipedal dogs with horns.

>>95901611
>dog-flavored savage beastmen in Mystara
Except for the whole fact they arent savages. They live in Medieval/Renassiance kingdoms that are pseudo french in naming and culture. For gods, sake the most well known lupin kingdom is fuckign Renardy, named after the french fox trickster Renard.

Your greentext is also a noncanon fan theory, from a fan based preservation and expansion website, that is simply one of three theories on an extinct creature originally mentioned in a fan based mailing list. There is no canon take here, only speculation by fans, who often come with their own idiotic biases like fucking dogbolds.

>Specifically Dungeon Meshi dogbolds
Who are literally just Lupin. Human sized civilized dog people. Not an ounce of kobold in them. They stray so far from what a kobold is, they have become something else entirely.

>>95899269 (OP)
From the thumbnail I thought the one on the left was wearing a dress doing the Marilyn Monroe pose.

>>95901257
>Whinging on kobolds being terribly described

Even Gygax himself admitted they fucked up trying to describe what they looked like and the official artwork was approved when it shouldn't have been. They were described poorly and depicted inconsistently. This isn't "people don't understand descriptors", anon. This is the creators fucking up on multiple fronts and never really fixing it until 3e came out.

>>95902040
Im not complainging about their description, I'm complaining about people being retards and not understanding language. Their description is fairly easy to understand. Humanoid, scaly skin, vaguely dog shaped head (doglike), vaguely rat shaped tail (ratlike), small horns, and a high pitched squeaky language not unlike a dogs yap or yip. Easy to understand.

The problem is that many idiots interpret doglike as a literal dogs head, and thus the kobold must be a dog of some sort. Rat like tail becomes a rats tail. All because these people are illiterate morons.

>>95901524
Lupin = canine human
Dogold = canine halflings/gnomes

>>95899269 (OP)
Neither, they're fucking lame.

I hope kobolds are only, EVER, depicted as literal dog-people. Just because it's fun to see douche bags like >>95902136 throw fits.

>>95899269 (OP)
Dragon kobolds are more fun

>>95899269 (OP)

Rare instance where I actually love (almost) every single iteration of something:
-I like dragon kobolds and think it's a neat idea they can grow and pupate into proper dragonborn, and then dragons, like how ants or aphids reproduce - provided they're well fed and don't die prematurely.
-I like dog kobolds because the Japanese have convinced me that a dog-man with human hands is actually a great, intimidating, lower-CR, generic encounter. Combine the worst aspects of a reservation dog with a violent homeless man, and give me 12 of them at a time.
-I even have a weird fascination with ratbolds: >>95899278 >>95899473 simply because the Warcraft Kobolds are such an iconic and charismatic pest. You dig too deep, hit a cavern system or pocket, and now the mine is flooded with a seemingly infinite supply of greasy emaciated ratbolds? Fantastic.

dead becuase kobolds are fucking discusting.

>>95899654
t. enterprising dragon luring in adventurers to his cave

>>95899695
>Some kobolds are horrible cave monsters
>Some of them are sex incarnate
How do you make a reasonable explanation of this in lore

>>95903083
>How do you make a reasonable explanation of this in lore

Some humans are horrible cave monsters and some of them are sex incarnate.

>>95903123
Alright fair, that makes sense

>>95901257
Given the size comparison to the elf, that's a lizardman you intellectually disingenuous fagaloon.

>>95903159
And yet the text calls it a kobold.

>>95899269 (OP)
lizardbolds, followed by >>95899278 and >>95899695

>>95901611
>Lupin are just dog-flavored savage beastmen
And Kobolds aren’t treated as savage beastmen with a growth deficiency?

>>95901257
Pretty sure "a type/relative of goblin" was used as a species description in 2e and earlier for them, much like for gremlins and orcs.

>>95899695
>Furry shit
Please neck yourself

>>95899695
Good taste.

>>95907630
Imagined how matted and ratty these things' fur would get without proper maintenance and with the kind of abuse kobolds take

They're pretty much fucked outside of human society or under a cruel master

>>95901388
>Yes I know they were originally described as scaly.
Dogbolds are seen as scaly due to being stereotyped as having mange. Send it.

>>95909340
That's a great dark plot, I must say.

>>95899269 (OP)
>>95899278
>>95899364
All of them. Kobolds aren't a specific species, but a line of magically-engineered slaves with differing traits due to their source stock and the needs of their end user.

>>95909428
Or for a self-indulgent hurt/comfort story about taking one in and healing its soul

>>95899269 (OP)
Dogbolds simply because furries seem to like them less. This is strange because furries usually turn cartwheels at the thought of fucking anything canine, but with kobolds they specifically seem to want miniature dragons.

Kill all furries IRL btw

>>95903083
>How do you make a reasonable explanation of this in lore
Domesticated vs feral, like pigs.

>>95903502
Post the text or forever be called a liar

Reject modernity, embrace tradition.

>>95906590
Anon...
>>95907630
>>95909340
I feel like furred kobolds would live in highlands and colder hilly/mountainous areas naturally but are often taken in by noble houses as fancy pets-but-we-don't-say-that-out-loud

Haven't I seen this before?

>>95911112
same thread different day

>>95902335
100%. You no take candle

>>95910382

If the dog connotations weren't intended back in BECMI, why were the kobold lands canonically ruled by a high DOGe ?

>>95921964
>ruled by a high DOGe
DOGE
Noun
the chief magistrate in the republics of Venice and Genoa

First Known Use
1549

Slang Meaning of Doge
An intentional misspelling of dog, doge is an Internet meme created in 2013 involving a picture of a Shiba Inu dog captioned with humorously ungrammatical phrases.

As the book your picture is from came out several decades before the slang meaning, the kobolds are ruled over by a high magistrate in the style of the republic of Venice.

flatbolds are life

>>95924802
Sauce?

/k/obolds are the best 'bolds, but I've never seen dog versions of them, has anyone else?

/k/obolds are the best 'bolds, but I've never seen dog versions of them, has anyone else? (deleted my first post because I forgot the pic like an idiot)

>>95924827
idk its at the bottom of my old images folder. could be from anywhere

>>95924852
Most of the /k/obold art originated with the Urban Arcana setting of d20 Modern. Most of the art inside was 3.X designs wearing/using modern gear which explains the tactical operator lizard /k/obolds.

>>95924853
Koboldanon. Found it earlier.
https://www.furaffinity.net/view/32050139

>>95925442
>Urban Arcana
Fuck I forgot that book. d20 Modern was almost unplayable but I still liked that book.

>>95921964
>>95924728
Kinda looks like that's from Orcs of Thar.
Which would make it a bit more likely it was an actual pun.

>>95901302
This picture is amazing

kobolds are made for loyally protecting your lair

>>95926702
Only by building and maintaining traps and other mechanisms.
Kobolds are small and relatively weak, they're ill-suited for direct combat.
Please do not endanger your friendly tribe's 'bolds by using them as guards.
That's what bigger races and monsters are for!

>>95926859
anon any race can have exceptions. imagine a kobold with 12 strength! he'd be unstoppable

>>95926931
He's still a kobold, aka smol.
It wouldn't feel right to send kobolds against anything human-sized or bigger, even strong ones.
They're small, got tiny dexterous hands, and don't mind cramped spaces.
They're much better used to maintain the traps and other such mechanisms, or at least operating such mechanisms.
If division of monster labor isn't a thing, it should be!

>>95927102
the kobolds are guarding kobold sized tunnels. a larger size is just going to be a detriment, trying to crouch walk in combat against a fully mobile opponent

>>95926702
I feel like, historically, kobolds flocked towards The Strongest(tm) for protection, which often ended up being dragons. As time went on The Strongest(tm) started to vary, from great wizards to barbarian kings to local lords, they started adapting to new environments that weren't hot dry caves, and several descendants of the new age kobold became more educated and started thinking they themselves were The Strongest(tm), which explains independent 'bolds as well as ones who serve with unshakable loyalty to The Strongest(tm).

>>95899269 (OP)
Both. Include 'the City-State of Kobol' in your setting; and all the inhabitants, be they Dogfolk, Lizard-Dragons, or even varieties of Goblin, can hereby be named 'Kobold'.

>>95927363
You know, that reminds me in Orcs of Thar they mention goblins can have several varieties of animal features. Maybe it could be the same thing.

>>95899269 (OP)
And what about those winged kobolds?

>>95911053
>Up in Them Hills™ there's a warren of spotted furbolds
>A minor mutation causes their fur to grow particularly luxuriously and so they live more above ground than most others. Daywalkers, essentially
>They also happen to be the centerpiece of a complex trading ecosystem between humans, dwarves, orcs, and other kobolds that keeps relative peace in the region
>A much more aggressive warren has found they can (sometimes) get paid by the dwarves to keep the population of the spotted tribe under control, and then turn around and get paid by human nobles by selling the prettiest ones as exotic pets
>They sell the pelts of the ones that aren't good for slavery to the orcs
>They buy top of the line arms from the dwarves to hunt better, to stab certain orcs before they become a problem, and to aggressively guard the actual location of these spotted kobolds

>>95929760
its hilarious that this artist thinks any of those furry coded ones aren't also netizen types and extremely horny. gay furries always seem to be in denial

>>95931137
couldn't that be said about all kobold art ?

>>95929760
I think we should kill the bottom left ones

>>95929760

>>95943901
(left>right)
>Fighter
>Rogue
>Ranger
>Sorcerer
>Wizard

>>95899269 (OP)
Taken from the rumor table for B2 Keep on the Borderlands, written by Gary Gygax:
>12. The big dog-men live very high in the caves
Who are the "dog-men? kobolds.

>>95945270
Never read it, but 13 sounds closer. You'd think the -big- dog-men would be gnolls.

>>95909340
They'd be basically the Pugs of the kobold species. Bred only for look, but complete shit at caring for themselves and surely full of physical and mental health issues.

>>95899269 (OP)
Dog Kobolds that look like snouzers but instead of fur they have thin fine feathers.

>>95936775
no

>>95943901
Where the last one on the right from ?

>>95943901
>>95946570
same question

>>95899695
I don't have any problem with people liking this art or anything, but cutebolds have been a disaster for playing D&D or PF with randos. Any time you mention kobolds they think of these things.

>>95946570
>>95947008
Cave gremilin from "the world of gaia"

>>95947079
>I don't have any problem with people liking this art
Then you should probably fuck off. Furry sympathizers like you are the whole reason the problem exists.

>>95947207
what problem ?

>>95899269 (OP)
>Dog kobolds or lizard/dragon kobolds ?
My GM liked them both so he made them two subspecies.

>>95947251
People joining random games and when kobolds are mentioned they want to pet them or fuck them.

>>95947260
fucking defeated enemies into submission isn't a normal thing ?

>>95947308
Not outside of Corruption of Champions or Trials in Tainted Space.

>>95899695
>>95907630
These are too sexy to be low level fodder enemies tho

>>95947350
It's evolution baby, enough of the creatures were killed that only the pretty ones survived to breed.

>>95899269 (OP)
As others have said, the actual answer is "both". Kobolds are fantasy theraspids, with pangolin scales and fuzzy underbellies. Same as dragons.

Your dragons don't *have* to have fuzzy underbellies.

>>95947376
imagine being a fancy furbold noble and going to an unexplored land full of tribal kobolds who skree and gronk and piss where they stand

>>95947192
No, dummy, it's a Knocker from The Spiderwick Chronicles. It's not even a kobold by name.

>>95947441
Reminds me of that "Little Red Hot Riding Hood" cartoon.

>>95947260
I get being annoyed by coomers, but what's your problem with petting kobolds?
Or taking them as pets, for that matter. Just a weak squire assistant, mechanics-wise.

>>95947569
They're dungeon enemies or sometimes a forewarning that a dragon is near by.

>>95947603
Unlike goblins and other vile creatures, kobolds are at least somewhat intelligent.
I'd try to get around or through without slaughtering half the tribe, if I can help it.
Things like mass sleep spells, sleeping powder bombs, or illusions to drive them away without killing.
That said, if the fight is inevitable, I'm not retarded enough to hold back just because I like them.
But I would prefer not to, if possible.

>>95900287
Lizard kobolds overlap with lizardmen too, I don't think it's a big issue. It's similar to the goblin > orc association - you have the cannon fodder version and then the bigger and tougher version.

>>95947724
>Lizard kobolds overlap with lizardmen
I always felt like the two have only superficial similarity.
Kobolds are, somehow, descendants of dragons.
Whereas lizardmen have saurian ancestry.

>>95899278
fpbp

>>95899269 (OP)
whatever kind of kobold this is