>elves did absolutely everything and were responsible for every part of the setting's history and cosmology
Do you do this in your settings?

>>95912918 (OP)
>Elves
>Ugly
The whole point of elves is to be coombait, without that why even including elves

>>95912940
*AHEM*

No, it seems utterly soulless.
Yeah, I know, you just want to talk about this shitty video game.
Elves are often very involved in their settings lore and history (it's probably a combination of being magical and being an ancient race), but as much they are my personal favorite race, give the other races also some narrative purpose and weight.
Bonus points if they aren't treating on the elves toes by doing that and instead just do their own cool shit

>>95912940
>without that why even including elves
What an utterly soulless take.
You are brown.

God no. Even Warhammer isn't that lazy.

>>95912948
Ahem what? if anything, he consolidated the idea of elves being perfect waifus.

>>95912940
ESLs are not entitld to an opinion here.

>>95912918 (OP)
The entire point of Elves is to be the civlization that did all of the cool things that make the setting fantastical, but are out of the hands of the current era. The ones who made the magic sword that you can FIND, but not replicate. The ones who sealed the great evil away a thousand years ago. The ones that made the cool ruins you explore for ancient treasure because its still better than anything you have on you.

i detest tolkenian elves. i want the old folklore elfs to come back.

also fuck solas, that sheldon cooper looking motherfucker.

>>95912918 (OP)
They aren't even older than humans in my setting as a race, so no. Mostly they just end up living in the most backwoods parts of the setting to get away from humans. The smarter ones are bulwarking their settlements against the absolute shitstorm necromancers are going to cause when the boundary between life and death completely collapses.

>>95912918 (OP)
No, elves are just modified human stock. They're special enough but not elfaboo wet dream level.

>>95913077
>i detest tolkenian elves. i want the old folklore elfs to come back.
Here here.

>>95912918 (OP)
I am not running a game in The Elder Scrolls universe, so no.

>>95913035
then why are you commenting?
you're not "entitld" to an opinion.

>>95912918 (OP)
>remember when the eldar became so depraved they created a chaos god and now the whole universe suffers because of it?
>The emperor remembers

>>95913077
Tolkenian elves are utter garbage, but the worst part is that they inspired d&d elves (even worse garbage) and d&d elves inspired anime elves (worthless other than as coombait, and even then it's only elves like Deedlit and Pirotess, as isekai ones are just generic anime girls with pointy ears).

>Tolkenian elves are utter garbage
There are just more and more reasons to hate /tg/.

>>95913179
The worst part is that D&D elves inspired videogame elves.

>>95912918 (OP)
No. High Ogres (Dragonlance) or other precurser races (Dragons, Giants, etc.) came first. Elves came second, third, etc.; and dwarves, humans, etc. came later.

>>95912948
>>95913179
Tolkien elves are such blatant mary sues it's not even funny, built off his wacko belief that he was a reincarnated Atlantean.

I like elves. Especially early 2000s korean MMO slop ones.

>>95913268
those are pretty, who wouldn't like pretty girls? Even straight girls and male gays like fashionable pretty girls.
all post Tolkien attempts at elf lore have been bad though.

>>95913239
Calling them mary sues completely misses the point and also just shows how little you have read.
It's also just a sign how badly people write elves these days, they are so deathly afraid of making elves "mary sues" that there is nothing compelling and inspiring about their humans with pointy ears.

>>95913239
>mary sues
Mary Sues are almost acceptable when they're not that central to the story itself, such as Dante in the Divine Comedy.
But it's dumb when works with a completely different intention end up being part of the same "canon", pic related. Although at least with elves it was less silly than with Tom Bombadil.

>>95913303
>Calling them mary sues completely misses the point and also just shows how little you have read.
lmao butthurt

>>95912918 (OP)
In my setting, elves TRIED to do everything and prevent the end of the world by themselves, not banding together with the lesser races to do so, and got absolutely demolished by their plan going wrong. They’re extinct—utterly and entirely—with their only legacy being a particular fey race formed from the echoes of their colossal fuckup.

>>95913319
>lotr: a single balrog is enough to threaten the entire group, strongest member of them is an angelic spirit-thing and he dies destroying it
>silm: balrogs die by the dozens to regular elves
It's shit.

>>95912918 (OP)
I liked the original version of the story where human blood mages tried to break into the Golden City and the Maker turned it Black and slapped the world with the Blight as punishment. Turning it into "So the elves were fucking with each other and then fucked up everything for everyone, especially themselves" is a lot less compelling.

Fuck no, elves had literally nothing to do with it.

>>95913326
Compelling counter-argument.

>>95913347
Gandalf chose a mortal form and gave up much of his power to meddle in earthly affairs.
Elves used to be far more powerful.
They're in decline.

>>95913379
He had his full power, he just wasn't supposed to use it against mortals. Against shit like balrogs or Sauron the gloves were off, and he still died killing one balrog.

>>95913387
>had his full power
He didn't.

>>95913387
In Middle-Earth your form dictates your power, that's the entire reason Sauron had to make the One Ring to fully deploy his quasi-divine will.
The Balrog's form is a giant hulking demon with a flaming sword. Gandalf's form is an old man. One of these is going to win in a straight fight.
Thankfully Gandalf also had a bitchin' elvish sword and the heart of a champion.

>>95913077
>>95913179
>>95913239
Why people like you feel the need to have a strong opinion about this subject when is more than obvious for anyone with two functional braincells you have never read anything about elves, Tolkien or anything else of what you're complaining here? Stick to reading your mudcore garbage my man. Nobody is stopping you, but stop shitting your pants when you don't know anything of what you're talking about.

>>95913434
You realize Tolkien didn't invent elves, right? And that his elves were basically a flanderization?

>>95913288
I don't think so. It's just that what we today consider elves is a very narrow type of race/species of what was once considered elves. What was elves before could very well be nymph, pixies, fairies, petals, grigs, wisps, spirits, apparitions and various other beings. If you look up their lore, they can be quite interesting even today.

Most of the heroes in Tolkien's works are human anyway
Beren, Tuor, Húrin, Túrin and Huor are all human. Eärendil only chose his elven side to be with his wife and his son Elros chose to the first human king of Numenor.

>>95913434
>tells others they haven't read shit
>equals disliking Tolkien's elves to enjoying mudcore trash
lmao

>>95912918 (OP)
No I like the "elves are extremely naive out of touch fey people who spend all their time frolicking in the woods being close to their primitive roots and nature and don't pay attention to worldly matters and the elf girls make great eager willing cocksleeves" route.

>>95913450
Bitch, you have not even read Tolkien proper, let alone the almost-alien folkloric tales that gave origin to their stories. Stop trying to lecture people (and bitching) about a subject you don't know nothing about. Is pathetic. Go read a book and then you might have an opinion worthy of being read.

>>95913450
His elves are a mix of Tuatha Danann, angels, elements of actual scandinavian elves, and are largely the result of his christian beliefs coupled with his fascination with the Kalevala and nordic sagas.
They are a genuine creation of his own creative mind. There is nothing flanderized about them.

>>95913472
So, you are brown.

>>95913485
I am absolutely 100% whiter than you without a shadow of a doubt.

>>95912918 (OP)
no, in my current setting the entity who started everything was pretty much just a gooner alien, then it made humans, then pretty much everything else came as results of the humans and the way they exploited the powerful but retarded alien.

>>95913469
Tolkien detractors are almost always some flavor of "I'm a super special snowflake with super special ideas that nobody cares about [crying emoji]." You're no different.

>>95913450
Ljosalfar weren't very coherent critters before Tolkien invented the concept of elves as an ancient and mystical people. Before then "Elf" was basically synonymous with "gnome", "pixie, "fairy", and "sprite" as "mysterious creature with strange powers".

>>95913485
>>95912983
>>95913035
what is this trend of calling people "brown" instead of just niggers or faggots?

>>95913478
Who are these? Fëanor and his children?

>>95913494
>Tolkien detractors
I like Tolkien's works, I just hate his elves.

>>95913494
NTA but Tolkien is highly overrated and I'm tired of pretending otherwise.

>>95913505
Because indians and mexicans aren't black and it's more effective psychologically to call someone indian on the internet than nigger nowadays.

>>95913505
Niggers and faggots are meaningless insults at the 4chin.
Anon, you are a faggot.
Did that hurt?

>>95913496
nta but
>basically synonymous with "gnome", "pixie, "fairy", and "sprite" as "mysterious creature with strange powers"
this is cooler than
>elves as an ancient and mystical people

>>95913521
It obviously tingled you, since you replied to his ass.

>>95913528
How?

>>95913521
>meaningless
same with brown, which sounds even sillier

>>95913536
NTA but Tolkien elves are basically just
>ancient and mystical paragons who were super strong, super smart, and perfect in every way except they got too proud sometimes but even then it was only like one or two of them
They're just superhumans with no real traits other than just being better at everything. Even appearance-wise his elves were identical to humans, they didn't have pointy ears. To me, that's dull compared to the myriad variants of folklore elves/pixies.

>>95913516
How can you say you like it when you hate one of the core elements of his works? You wouldn't be different if you say you liked him but hated humans, dwarves or hobbits. Take into account there's a difference between having a preference and hate.

>>95913518
Like I said, contrarian snowflake.

>>95913536
because "ancient and mystical people" in practice just leads to boomer-like annoying fags yearning for the past. Or just bitches who are eternally hot and loyal (so, only relevant as coombait).
Meanwhile, not codifying them into concrete creatures allows for them to be anything from Christmas helpers to demigods depending on what the story and setting need.

>>95913556
>How can you say you like it when you hate one of the core elements of his works?
because it IS possible to enjoy something even if you hate a core element of it, duh

>>95913550
Well, that's a darn shame, because I find little fairy faggots to be pretty boring. Especially because in many fantasy settings, these critters exist right next to actual Tolkien (rather D&D) elves without any problem, since they tend to occupy different niches with some overlap.

Also, his elves were never better at everything, and even being superhuman can be somewhat questionable. A lot of the superhuman traits come from the Silmarillion where you can have other astonishing feats performed by humans.
They also don't tend to be the bestest at everything, like dwarves outsmithing them (in certain areas, like armor), or Turin being able to wear a heavy helmet that no elf could wear. There are other aspects, like no elf is actually good at anything by default, they have to learn everything from scratch. Whereas Tolkien noted that humans can have an instinctual "knack" for things. That's completely beyond his elves. There is also minor things like humans being the superior at husbandry and breeding horses and livestock.
A lot of their supposed superiority is ultimately the result of them learning, training, devoting themselves, improving.
And, as mentioned in some other post, this is completely missing the narrative purpose of his elves, why they are like this. You can dislike how he writes them (and apparently, you haven't read enough), but you have to acknowledge how he's thorough and consistent with his themes and how his elves play into them, and what purpose they fulfill. They are like this because there is a reason.
>>95913573
Is there no place for a race like in a setting? Is there no past in a setting?
>Meanwhile, not codifying them into concrete creatures
Nobody is codifying anything, you are free to write your elves exactly how you want.
>depending on what the story and setting need
And often, you want a magical ancient race in your setting. What's the problem with that?

>>95913556
Core element? They barely show up in The Hobbit, and aren't all that prominent in LotR. And proportionally very few people give a fuck about all the shit he didn't actually get published.

>>95913556
look at this autistic motherfucker. if people don't enjoy things you like then what's it to you? mind your own fucking business. i like tolkien the way i want to like it, not yours, so shut the fuck up and take your medications.

>>95912918 (OP)
Elves in my setting are responsible for all the problems in the world and I routinely have them get owned for it.

>>95913176
>the whole universe suffers because of it
To be fair it's not like humanity really cares if say the Tau or Votann suffer from Slaanesh's existence
>also lets not forget who's chaos marines caused the great rift

>>95913606
>Is there no place for a race like in a setting? Is there no past in a setting?
What in ESL is this supposed to mean?
If your point is "is there no place for a race like this in a setting?", sure, creators can add annoying races to their settings, they're still annoying just like IRL boomers are annoying when they act like that.

>Nobody is codifying anything, you are free to write your elves exactly how you want.
yeah, that's not Tolkien's fault, but it does suck that after him most elves became bootleg versions of his elves.

>And often, you want a magical ancient race in your setting. What's the problem with that?
you can add whatever you want to your setting, and I'll also hate them if they're annoying nonsense (or like them if they're cool).

>>95913496
>before Tolkien invented the concept of elves as an ancient and mystical people
Someone hasn't read The King of Elfland's Daughter

>>95913319
>dante
>mary sue
fucking retard, dante is merely an observer. all he does is walking along with virgil and commenting on the fate of the dead.

>>95913622
Indeed. The Hobbit and LotR are the reasons why Tolkien became influential and "mainstream". I'm not referring to Peter Jackson's movies or so on, but rather to being mainstream enough back then for Gygax to have Tolkien's races as core (which if I remember correctly was for the sake or marketability since he didn't even care for them all that much).
Pretending the whole of Tolkien's works are equally influential is dumb.

>>95913635
You should make them literally owned

>>95913550
None of what you said is true. Elves have their flaws, just like all other races in Middle-earth do. Besides that Humans and Dwarves have their own super cool traits, and even little Hobbits themselves have their own achievements.

>>95913556
>How can you say you like it when you hate one of the core elements of his works?
Because the CORE element of Tolkien's works is about humans having immortal souls that will endure in the afterlife alongside Jesus Christ while elves and dwarves are bound to the fate of Arda and will eventually become nothing because they don't have souls like humans. The defining work of Tolkien, Lord of the Rings, is a tale wholly dedicated to detailing the transition from a world ruled by mystical races to one that is dominated by Mankind.

The fate of Men, the nature of their souls, their relationship to God and the world, etc. is far more central to the core of LotR than what the elves are doing or have done. The elves are effectively window dressing, they aren't important in the grand scheme of things. It's all about Man. Man's rise, his fall, his comeback, his tragedy, his faith, his love. Man.

>>95913669
humans don't have any cool traits in tolkien's legendarium, only a vague "joining iluvatar in super paradise" instead of being reincarnated like elves.
tolkien saying basically
>trust me death is actually a gift
made no sense and it's nothing but another way to shoehorn his christian dogma onto us.

>>95913644
You have a weird obsession with this annoying part. This is on you, you find them annoying, it's subjective. There are ways to write this compelling and give it purpose and a narrative reason.
>that after him most elves became bootleg versions of his elves
This complaint is thrown at elves all the time, when it applies to dwarves the most. There is no other fantasy race that has so much variety as elves, often very contrarian takes to Tolkien (Moorcock, TES).

The overall point was that fantasy settings have a past, and fantasy elves often follow this trope of being this ancient race that has done things in said past, which shaped the fate of the world for better and/or worse. You may take other races (or just humans for that), but elves do this very well, so you see it often not just for copying Tolkien. It's a powerful narrative tool.

I still want to know what's supposedly so cool about gay little fairy faggots.

>>95913664
>walking with the cool guy he admired, seeing how the people he hated are suffering in hell, meeting other dead people he admired and even the girl he idealized who are all nice to him
yeah, he's not a mary sue (a term that's super vague to begin with) because the work isn't centered on him but on what he sees. But if anything that's similar to some of the elves in Tolkien's works too.

>>95913622
Holy shit, are we talking with fucking secundaries here? In The Hobbit elves are one of the five forces composing the Battle of the Five Armies at the end which decided what would happen in the aftermath of Smaug. In LoTR Legolas is one of the main members of the Fellowship until the end, Elrond and the remaining elves are a key and critical part in the carrying of the One Ring to Mount Doom. Bad adaptations as they're I'm sure this happens in the movies too.

But aside from that look how contradictory you're: you complain and bitch that elves are this super powerful Mary sues. At the same time you say they're not a core element of most of Tolkien's work. So why are you even bitching about this homie? If they're so irrelevant you should not have a problem with them. Seems like the only thing you want is complaining for the sake of it.

>>95913505
It's faggotry.

>>95913683
>while elves and dwarves are bound to the fate of Arda and will eventually become nothing because they don't have souls like humans.
You just made that up. Why are you lying with something that can be easily checked?

>>95913319
The ones in the hobbit are Rivendell Elves, which are the bro-est elves. The weird forest ones each the magic bread

>>95913550
>perfect in every way except they got too proud sometimes
Let's see, off the top of my head, elves did things like
>Multiple kinslayings over muh jewels
>Petty dwarf genocide
>Got tricked by Morgoth multiple times because of mix pride and family drama
>In first age their last realm falls because of a horny incestfag makes a deal with Morgoth
>Throwing Thorin and company into cell for the crime of getting lost and stumbling upon their feast
>Move to loot Smaug's hoard and almost end up causing yet another elf vs. dwarf conflict because of that
>Basically being a race of boomers who whine how the world is shit compared to what it once was
>Got tricked by Sauron because of the previously mentioned boomer mentality
>By the time LotR takes places their strongest realm is kept alive by an artifact that relies on Sauron's strength to sustain it

>>95913709
>trust me death is actually a gift
>made no sense and it's nothing but another way to shoehorn his christian dogma onto us.
Peak libtard understanding of reality

>>95913716
>This is on you, you find them annoying, it's subjective.
Yes, and? I didn't tell you that you must also hate his elves.

>but elves do this very well
no, that's one of the worst part of elves, as they fuck up the idea of a cool, distant forgotten past with their long lifespans

elves are actually the changeling children who were taken from humans
they ate too much fairy food, giving them a longer lifespan and ears
growing older, they started living in the space between the human realm and the fairy realm, protecting it fiercely from uninvited outsiders
but being raised by fairies, they have a twisted view on other 'humans'
they live by fairy rules
>except the iron rule, they just cut better
most of the evil they do is because humans violated fairy rules, they don't think they ever did anything wrong, ever

>>95913788
Yeah, sorry. Elves and dwarves have "souls" but their souls are bound to Arda. If Arda were unmade, their souls would be unmade with it. I simplified it in my post because their souls aren't immortal like humans'.

>>95913814
>as they fuck up the idea of a cool, distant forgotten past with their long lifespans
Why have elves when they can't remember some distant ancient shit? There are plenty of fantasy settings that trim the elves' lifespan down to a couple of centuries. But big part of why elves are different from humans (excluding necromancy and vampirism) is that some of them were there when it happened or actively partook in the thing, and you can go and talk to them about it.

>>95913709
Holy secundary, Men are one of the toughest bastards in all of Middle-earth. This is not up for debate. And they're far above and way cooler than any of your beloved mudcore settings you enjoy to jack-off, my below room temperature IQ friend.

>>95913848
no not really they died like flies and their kingdoms are all in ruin but gondor

>>95913842
>Why have elves
yeah exactly
Collecting information from challenging, half destroyed or contradicting sources is cooler.
Having to talk to some questionable ancient vampire or half mad ancient sorceress is cooler.
Having to cast some ritual to contact spirits or deities is cooler.

>>95913825
All sentient races in Middle-earth have immortal souls. Nobody knows what will happen after the end of Arda only The One.

>>95913709
Do you know what a Numenorian is?

>>95913909
Cope. Everyone on Arda (including the Valar) but humans are bound to the fate of Arda. Elves have to park their souls in the Halls of Mandos (with a slim chance of being reincarnated) and that's it for them. Tolkien specified that human souls alone are not bound by the Music of the Ainur and that they will play a role in the Second Music. Elves are deliberately not mentioned, so you need to read between the lines.

>>95913912
Also dull mary sues derived from Tolkien thinking Atlantis was real and that he reincarnated from it.

>>95913912
you mean the ones that are all dead except those few who are now sauron's servants? they're inferior to elves in every possible conceivable way and arguably even more retarded.

>>95913709
IT'S SO FUCKING FUNNY how this post is no different from what the kings of Numenor were saying about the Gift right before they turned to worshiping Satan. That Tolkien had your number 80 years ago is hilarious.

>>95913899
You may find all of these cooler, but they are also different. May fit different types of games and stories better.
Journeying into elfen lands to talk to some ancient elfen sage is cooler.
Getting trained by an ancient elfen swordmaster or elfen wizard in their craft is cooler.
Dealing with the elfen king and getting the task to save the realm after they revealed the truth of some old mystery is cooler.
Nah, it's not cooler, it's different, all of this has a purpose, themes and its own narrative that you simply can't replicate by making them vampires.

>>95913941
be as it may, humans' destiny is incredibly unsatisfying and vague and fuck tolkien as well.

>>95913969
calm the fuck down schizo before someone smacks you so hard you start having coherent thoughts again.

>>95913887
>their kingdoms are all in ruin but gondor
The realms of the Easterlings, Khand, and Harad seem to be doing fine, so long as you ignore the whole worshipping Sauron thing. Rohan, if given enough time to muster and without first having to deal with Saruman being a faggot, could have fielded around 10,000 heavy cavalry. Dale is, by all accounts, prospering and actively expanding its borders now that Smaug is gone. If anything, Gondor is the realm closest to being in ruins, having lost two of its three most important cities and sharing a direct border with an enemy it cannot defeat or meaningfully assault.

>>95913971
>Journeying into elfen lands to talk to some ancient elfen sage is cooler.
>Getting trained by an ancient elfen swordmaster or elfen wizard in their craft is cooler.
>Dealing with the elfen king and getting the task to save the realm after they revealed the truth of some old mystery is cooler.
All of them work just as well replacing the elves with humans.
At most, you'd get the anime style cliche of "wow this human boy is gifted because he learned X in 3 days while it took me 9289 years due to how fucking retarded I am!"
>sages/kings
ancient books and bloodlines. If your human adventurers can find this knowledge, other humans could have found it too and written it somewhere.

>>95913967
You mean the line of Elendil and Isildur? The one Aragon is descended from?

>>95913974
>posted from beneath the waves in the ruins of numenor

>>95913434
>wishing for elves to not be yet another case of humans 2.0 is "mudcore"
lmao what an asinine fucking faggot you are.

>>95913999
>All of them work just as well replacing the elves with humans
They don't, you can't meet humans the same way you can meet elves, as being an ancient, magical, non-human race with an extended lifespan, different origin, and even living in different, non-human realms, has completely different tonal, narrative and thematic connotations.
You are, overall, not making any compelling argument for why having elves is bad in an even remotely objective manner. You simply like different things that are completely different from elves.
Which is fine. Then play games that don't have elves. That is no argument against elves to like something different more.

>>95913967
>they're inferior to elves in every possible conceivable way
2nd Age Elves
>Sauron happily wages war against them and is poised to win
Numenor at its peak
>Sauron gets defeated them in a military conflict once and the second times when they shows up he opts to surrender and corrupt them from within
Yeah, I think that it is pretty clear that by the late Second Age, Numenor had surpassed the remaining elven realms in strength by a significant margin.

There are two types of hardcore Tolkien fans:

Those who like it because they think it's about nothing more than elves living in a magical playground for eternity while having superpowers

Those who understand that it's meant to be a bittersweet story about men taking over as the masters/defenders of the world while the fantasy races and magic that still lingered from the world's creation fade into the background (as it must, as it is fated to do). A story about a sad, but necessary transition as well as Men "coming into their own." It's both heroic and tragic.

>>95913798
>Multiple kinslayings over muh jewels
Yes
>Petty dwarf genocide
And nothing of value was lost.
>Got tricked by Morgoth multiple times because of mix pride and family drama
Happens
>In first age their last realm falls because of a horny incestfag makes a deal with Morgoth
That was dumb, yes.
>Throwing Thorin and company into cell for the crime of getting lost and stumbling upon their feast
Hmm, Thorin was an idiot. All he had to do was say, I am killing the dragon.
>Move to loot Smaug's hoard and almost end up causing yet another elf vs. dwarf conflict because of that
Give the Lake-People what they deserve, Thorin.
>Basically being a race of boomers who whine how the world is shit compared to what it once was
Are they wrong?
>Got tricked by Sauron because of the previously mentioned boomer mentality
Happens
>By the time LotR takes places their strongest realm is kept alive by an artifact that relies on Sauron's strength to sustain it
And they are still better than the rest.

To be honest, most post-tolkien Elves are just Numenorians with pointy ears.

>>95913887
>Men
>Dying like flies
I ALMOST feel bad for you, secundary.

>>95914149
>secundary
imagine, it's brownoids calling others brown here.

>>95914058
>not making any compelling argument for why having elves is bad in an even remotely objective manner
good, because I never attempted to do that, and you aren't making any compelling argument for why having elves is good in an even remotely objective manner

>>95913941
>Elves have to park their souls in the Halls of Mandos
You seem to have speedread through the text. Everyone goes to the Halls of Mandos, but different souls from different races are kept apart. Also, the Valar are PREVIOUS to Arda, they're emanations of Eru himself before the world came to be.
>Second Music
In the Second Music is mentioned the Valar didn't know when Men were coming, along with other details. But the Third and final music is a mystery to everyone so you're contradicting that part all together.

>>95914058
>as being an ancient, magical, non-human race with an extended lifespan, different origin, and even living in different, non-human realms, has completely different tonal, narrative and thematic connotations
Occupations like swordmaster, wizard, sage and king all make them sound like they aren't really that different from humans.
Might as well use Greek style deities or ancient/blessed human heroes. Or even aliens.
Just repeating the pointy eared boomers across different types of fantasy media has no purpose.
Even worse when they're presented as a race that's available to players, those just use a position similar to what tieflings currently are to d&d as "totally special" garbage.

>>95913969
If you think about it slowly there's a good reason why the Gift of men is called the Gift of men.
>By a man
>Build great things with your friends and loved ones
>Win battles and gain glory
>Pass away of old age surrounded by your loved ones
Meanwhile if you're immortal you will live to see everything rot. Wars, misery, plague, hard winters, destruction from eldritch creatures. Anyone who doesn't see the whole thing is an ordeal is kidding himself. Tolkien was a visionary.

>>95914078
There's nothing necessary about many of the things that happen in Middle-earth. That's a calvanistic interpretation of destiny that Tolkien wouldn't approve.

>>95914250
>Occupations like swordmaster, wizard, sage and king all make them sound like they aren't really that different from humans.
Yeah, if you ignore everything else I also mentioned.
Imagine if you want to gain some insight in some event that happened hundreds of years ago, and need first-hand experience. You need an immortal. If that is an elf, reaching that person could require venturing through elf realms, dealing with elfen guardians protecting their forest and being suspicious of you invading their space, and dealing with other elfen elfen costums.
>but why not a vampire!
Because now you suddenly have a completely different story, adventure. You probably don't venture out into the wilds, but instead hire a vampire killer to hunt this creature down, or maybe even make yourself a branded heretic by conspiring with a vampire.
It doesn't matter if you like the latter more. Because that's not the point. The point is that it's a completely different story, adventure, different tone and atmosphere.

>Occupations like swordmaster, wizard, sage and king all make them sound like they aren't really that different from humans.
What an absolutely awful take that applies to literally any fantasy race. Go in the next orc or dwarf thread and make this point. I mostly see this stupid line of reasoning in elf threads and it's so misplaced and dumb.

>>95914213
There is no third music of the ainur, dweeb. You talk about speedreading and yet you're making shit up.

>>95914250
NTA, but if you don't like fantasy races stick to reading Game of Thrones and other mudcore crap. You can have all the humans you want there.

>>95914160
Because you're.

>>95914319
>only mentioning the vampire and ignoring deities or ancient human heroes
lol

>>95914346
>keeps mentioning mudcore trash
why the hell do you keep mentioning that shit?
>since you don't like drinking pee, go eat shit!

>>95914311
>There's nothing necessary about many of the things that happen in Middle-earth.
Wrong. The Music of the Ainur is explicitly referred to as "essentially fate" for all things except men, who are excluded by this by the Gift. As such, many things are necessary to happen in Middle-earth because they are fated to happen due to their foretelling by the Music. The Dominion of Men was literally revealed to the Ainur in the Music by Eru Iluvatar, thus indicating many great things would have to happen to bring this about.

>>95914339
Seems like you're right, but so I am.
>The Second Music of the Ainur is the great music the Ainur will make together with the Children of Ilúvatar before Ilúvatar after the End, during which Arda will be rebuilt. The history of Arda is but a learning process towards it.
This idea that everyone but Men are going to disappear with Arda is a lie.

>>95914378
>>only mentioning the vampire and ignoring deities or ancient human heroes
Okay, you now have to travel to mount Olympus.
Or into the afterlife to meet that ancient human hero.
Same logic, entirely different adventure, story, tone and theme. You have no point.
I still want to know what's supposedly so cool about gay little fairy faggots. It's easy to just complain and badmouth everything, but I guess that's all you can do when you are a jaded faggot.

>>95914379
Foretelling is not the same es necessary. Every being in Arda has free will on their own, thus having the possibility to deny or accept the course of their actions.

>>95912918 (OP)
Nope, but I do give them a complex about it where they claim such.

>>95912918 (OP)
No.

Well kinda,
Okay one time I had the idea for an adventure setup where elves certainly held this belief. One which the McGuffin severely threatened, because the thing in question was an ancient mass grave that would make the human race older than elf kind, which the elf communities around the town would be freaking the fuck out over as their hubris and worldview can’t handle the new discovery.

But this wasn’t even going to be the main conflict, it was a side plot meant to create complications and unexpected obstacles for the main crisis.

That being that since unwittingly uncovering the graves the whole town has become haunted by the spirits of the murdered tribe. So the party would have to come up with a way to put the spirits to rest, spirits whose extreme age complicates the usual methods. you can’t just slay the ghosts because they are tied to a haunt(s) so they’ll just remanifest next time the haunt triggers, avenging their deaths will be tricky as the tribe that murdered them and all their descendants are dead and forgotten, and giving them a proper burial will only work if the remains are buried according to their customs, or customs they would recognize. Which is a problem when they likely died eons before writing was even invented. So putting the spirits to rest would’ve been a puzzle in itself

>>95914397
>You have no point.
neither do you, what's inherently so much better about this "story, tone and theme" needing to involve specifically immortal pointy eared boomers?
>Okay, you now have to travel to mount Olympus.
>Or into the afterlife to meet that ancient human hero.
Or you can meet them in the same places where you'd meet the elf sage, swordmaster, wizard or king, except these are deities or heroes instead of magical boomers.

>>95914431
>what's inherently so much better
Read, nigger, read
>>It doesn't matter if you like the latter more. Because that's not the point. The point is that it's a completely different story, adventure, different tone and atmosphere
This is not about one being better than the other. I already said that. The point is that's different and has its purpose, its own themes, tone, since it's different.
>Or you can meet them in the same places where you'd meet the elf sage, swordmaster, wizard or king
So now you are deliberately making zero effort into your made-up elves and present that as an argument.
You simply have a bad case of "stop liking what I don't like."

>>95914452
>The point is that's different and has its purpose, its own themes, tone, since it's different.
yeah, having them be giant mushrooms or gayniggers from outer space would also be different. Different doesn't mean it's worth keeping as some sort of universal default fantasy element.

>You simply have a bad case of "stop liking what I don't like."
You can keep liking them, just don't tell me to like them or that their purpose is worth shit.

>>95914681
>Different doesn't mean it's worth keeping as some sort of universal default fantasy element
Then that's a very cool fact that there are various other fantasy games for you to enjoy that don't have elves.
But I hope you complain about dwarves and orcs and halfings in any thread about them for exact the same reasons, whenever such a thread might appear. And I hope that you aren't hyperfixated on elves for some very weird reasoning.
>just don't tell me to like them
I don't, and never did.
Your argument in this long chain of autistic discussion was that "lol you can just use vampires", and yes, I will single that out, and not again spend way more time and effort on my posts than you jaded faggot everd did. The point is that elves can justify their niche and purpose in fantasy games, and you just can't replace them with whatever. It won't work.

>>95914742
>The point is that elves can justify their niche and purpose in fantasy games
no, they don't

Vaguely on topic but I wish more fantasy settings had a middle of the road dark tone. Like with LOTR the bad guys, orcs and Sauron et al, are so weak and incompetent they may as well not exist. A lot of settings are like that. But on the othr hand you have stuff like Warhammer where the bad guys are utterly invincible and everything's hopeless. I want bad guys with bite who can still lose.

>>95914887
>Like with LOTR the bad guys, orcs and Sauron et al, are so weak and incompetent they may as well not exist.
Guess that someone missed the fact that free people can't actually win the war against Sauron, as he has spent the last couple thousand years successfully undermining them. Arnor is reduced to, like, a hundred rangers and a half-dozen villages; Gondor has lost most of its former territory, and its historical capital is an abandoned ruin. Elrond and pals don't come up with the suicide plan to destroy the One Ring by sneaking into Mordor because they just happen to feel like doing a little bit of trolling.

>>95914887
Middle earth is just not a good ttrpg game setting. It's a great setting, but written fiction or for videogames since in those you don't get that much freedom anyway.
Too bad Conan is so """problematic""", that setting fits ttrpg style adventuring much better.

>>95914887
>Sauron
>Incompetent
Why no one wants to read? Is not THAT hard.

>>95915260
I mean when Glorfindel can solo all nine Nazgul and Aragorn can kill hundreds of orcs solo, and individual Gondor soldiers can get 50-1 KD ratios it does seem like Sauron's lethality is overstated. And despite repeating that the free people can't beat him, every time he's fought them they've... kicked his ass with ease, even when he had the ring.

>>95914290
This is just cope to stave off the fear of death and you know it.

>>95913512
My guess is Elrond and Elros, with Maedhros and Maglor

>>95915623
Stop projecting. You probably would sacrifice babies to moloch just to get more life.

>>95912918 (OP)
that would only really work if there were only elves in the world (not even gods and such), which might be cool but I've never seen it done

>>95915623
No, no, the books say it's a good thing, so it's a good thing.

>>95915581
You see he's supposed to be extremely competent and dangerous so he must be.

>>95915922
I'm usually an elf hater (though those two ones are exceptions because they're hot), but yeah, the idea of a world of only elves and no gods could be fun.
As long at it doesn't end up with elves becoming boomers, or with gods and humans arriving so it's just a standard fantasy world eventually.

>>95913037
Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your setting, man.

>>95912918 (OP)
It depends who you ask.
Elven lore totally has it that elves (or at least their pantheon) did everything.
But the orcs have a totally different set of lore, with basically no part for the elves.
Human lore boldly asserts that both of those races' lore is full of shit.
Who do you believe? Are you sure that any of them actually have it right? Maybe it's all propaganda and braggadocio. LORE DOESN'T HAVE TO BE ACCURATE AND TRUE.

>>95915948
it would probably be a ton of 5D chess scheming to get ahead since everyone would be intelligent, have some degree of superhuman powers (senses, agility, magic affinity etc.) and live for hundreds of years.
The world would be quite heavily developed and almost entirely claimed meaning there's not wilderness in the traditional sense. At the same time it's probably not densely populated or exploited for natural goods in a conventional sense.
Maybe conflicts would ultimately be resolved through wars, but I think there would be a lot of talking before that as the elven societies would be very well developed and have old institutions and laws.

Or the billion different elf subraces all fucking hate each other and the entire world is the balkans but with more pointy eared hot people

>>95915623
The way elves (and other long-lived or outright immortal races) and perceiving their lifespan as some sort of curse have been writing seems always like massive sour grapes and writers coping.
At least with vampires it's an actual curse (bloodlust and being bound to the night).
But
>woe is me I'm an elf and live 700 years
Stop this. Let them be happy to live this long. I would love to live this long.

>>95916012
>LORE DOESN'T HAVE TO BE ACCURATE AND TRUE.
Yeah we know that, and it results in the shittiest takes. The setting still has some factual events somewhere, as much as you want to go "wow everyone is morally grey I'm so deep".

>>95916058
That's not a problem. Being an Elf has its perks such as being a Man. The other fag here is a Satan worshipper who thinks Men should start join Morgoth so they get to live more when not even Elves worship immortality.

>>95916058
>The way elves (and other long-lived or outright immortal races) and perceiving their lifespan as some sort of curse have been writing seems always like massive sour grapes and writers coping
Yeah it's exactly that.
>See, these people are beautiful and supposedly smart and live forever and blah blah but they're unhappy and they're retarded in way that actually matters.

>>95916252
Nta but it is a "problem" in that it's a boring nonsense cliché.
It reminds me of some of the X-men being all "woe is me" about having cool superpowers (I know I know, some of them did make their lives shitty through side effects and so on, but others were just cool upgrades over being a normal human).

>>95915701
If you're talking about what other hack writers do they tend to go for "akshually elves mature at 200 years old and they remain immature forever" more often. Which surely is not the writers crypto pedo fetish speaking. However, Tolkien Elves immortality is not a superpower by any given margin, and elves don't worship it. Anyone who comes saying that Men should start worshipping Satan for it missed the point of the books a thousand times.

>>95916290
If you're talking about what other hack writers do they tend to go for "akshually elves mature at 200 years old and they remain immature forever" more often. Which surely is not the writers crypto pedo fetish speaking. However, Tolkien Elves immortality is not a superpower by any given margin, and elves don't worship it. Anyone who comes saying that Men should start worshipping Satan for it missed the point of the books a thousand times.

>>95915701
Interesting. Thanks anon.

>>95916402
>However, Tolkien Elves
Tolkien elves are barely relevant anywhere other than people having a vague image of Legolas.

>>95916449
Delusional.

>>95916512
Yeah it's delusional to think that actual Tolkien elves are more relevant to ttrpgs than just some idea of long living pointy eared arrogant jerks.

>>95912918 (OP)
>Do you do this in your settings?
I'm fine with long lived Elves that are on a downward decline with their civilization, but I hate the idea of them being a playable race.

Makes no sense to have a 700 year old level 1 wizard suddenly quintuple in power by doing odd jobs for a few months. I'd prefer to have players only be half-elves because I guess I'm too autistic to deal with it but not autistic enough to make my own gay setting.

In general I kind of don't like how most people use non-human races as it I feel it just devolves into nu-fantasy mmo slop becasue no one knows how to roleplay anything that isn't a self-insert.

>>95916663
>Makes no sense to have a 700 year old level 1 wizard suddenly quintuple in power by doing odd jobs for a few months
Absolutely nothing stops one from playing a 20 years something elf. Absolutely nothing.
Warhammer Fantasy is the only game I can think of that makes you roll on elf age and it's substantially higher than most races, and its elves are also just outright superior to other playable races.
Outside of that, it's simply a player problem. The veteran fighter of a hundred wars that starts at level 1 is equally as dumb.
You can also thank systems in general rarely taking age into account and abstracting everything into "adventurers levels".

>>95916660
Seethe.

>>95912918 (OP)
My elves are like Melniboneans that eventually got overthrown when the human tribes figured out how to counter their magical bullshit, and returned the suffering, sacrifice, and slavery of generations all at once, in a grand ethnic cleansing that saw the elvish empire fall.
Now they're all nomadic wanderers on an eternal pilgrimage between secret strongholds to continue the ancient pacts their ancestors made with demons and such, or lose all their remaining special elfness.
In the centuries since, people still hate elves, but it's more a casual racism and gypsy situation. No longer a cathartic muderfest directed at every elf in sight. Plenty of people still have a hateboner for the knife-ears, though.

>>95916058
Remember how good the 90s were?
And how shitty everything is now?
And how things keep getting worse?
Imagine that, for 700 years.

Elves didn't do shit in Nordic mythology.

>>95912918 (OP)
Dragonage is such a fucking funny downfall story.

>>95916849
Dumbfucks & Disappointment has always treated races with longer lifespans as kind of slow brained

>>95917564
that's just retarded boomerism

>>95918547
>Half- orc and human young adult 12-15/14-20
I'm not bringing this to the table
I think it's dumb also drow canonically become fully recognized adults by age 26
Drizzt left the underdark at like 31
The entire 'long lived races mature slower' seemed dumb to me
Am elf raised in human society will be treated like an adult at 18 all races mature at the same rate
I guess I'd excuse it if an elf lived in evermeet until they decided to move it at age 100
But elves who venture out or lived a substantial amount on the road have no excuse to be dumb autistic fucks

>>95912918 (OP)
>elves did absolutely everything and were responsible for every part of the setting's history and cosmology
>Do you do this in your settings?

No, I gave that role to Cyclopes and Dragons.
Fuckin' love Cyclopes.

>>95913518
Is this loss?

>>95912918 (OP)
In my setting. After the Gods were banished due to infighting. The elves fought with the dragons till they won and took over the world. However after a massive civil war that basically ending their empire and sent the world into a dark age. The small city states and nations of Elves basically were overshadowed by the kingdoms of men, and work with them till the demons invaded and at the time of the setting. All the different races and nations are trying to gather power and territory to rise in power after the Demon King War.

>>95918603
>The entire 'long lived races mature slower' seemed dumb to me
agree
>I guess I'd excuse it if an elf lived in evermeet until they decided to move it at age 100
nah, even then he's have to be super retarded to be a peer to a 14 years old human. Did he spend 86 years just sitting and watching the grass grow or some shit? "he spent years doing shit that's not relevant to being an adventurer" is too weak of an explanation.

>settings history cosmology
no

>>95918825
is this every isekai setting ever?

i just find elves so boring, man. idk i came up on stuff like diablo 1 and 2, conan the barbarian, kane the mystic swordsman, etc. and these settings never had elves or dwarves or orcs. they never seemed critical to a setting to me and frankly just seem like less interesting replacements for humans or whatever.

>>95913550
Kill yourself contrarian retard.

>>95920207
Conan does have it fair share of barbarian abhumans that are basically orcs. The advanced civilizations and ruins of even more advanced civilizations are also sort of like elves.

However what Howard did was to take inspiration from things other than Toliken-esque fantasy and have his own clear idea how he wanted to portray things as well as being a very good writer so it doesn't feel stale for us today. You could totally read conan and the stuff that inspired conan (ancient history, myths, western, other pulp adventure/fantasy) and make a setting with the usual fantasy races without too much trouble.
Personally I really want to see neo-assyrian elves

>>95918888
"Elves are dumbasses for longer" isn't untenable. Maybe elves don't learn as quickly as humans. Elf parents shelter their children for the 80 years it takes them to learn fundamental skills and truths. Elven infants take literal years to learn to walk. Elven toddlers take years to learn about cause and effect. It takes an elf years to pick up skills that a human would learn in weeks, and centuries to master them.

In conversation, elves seem distracted and flighty, often having difficulty remembering things. It's not because they're distracted by the numinous or whatever; they're just retards.

>>95920254
exactly, at that point the only real reason to include elves as a race is if they're coombait
otherwise what's even the point of a race of long living magical retards?

>>95912918 (OP)
Replace elves with Gnomes. See, there's a local herb in this world that's basically magical adderall. For most species it just gives them a modest boost to intelligence and willpower but for Gnomes it unlocked their massive intellects to the point they could create entirely new races and manipulate mortal society. Yes, I'm claiming the Gnomes have ADHD. Fite me. As it turns out, Humans, Orcs, Elves, and Dwarves are all derived from Halfling stock thanks to Gnomish manipulations and actually formed a cohesive empire for generations.

Then they ran out of Mindfire Blossoms and the Gnomish Empire collapsed. It was kinda weid to be on the ground floor of since the Gnomes were never officially in charge. One day the little advisor buddies are acting a bit ditzy and the next day everybody is stabbing each other.

>>95920289
>otherwise what's even the point of a race of long living magical retards?

Fun?

>>95920248
>The advanced civilizations and ruins of even more advanced civilizations are also sort of like elves.
What? So this is how far we've degenerated? Ruins of advanced civilizations is always elf-coded? Bro, Conan the Barbarian is older than Tolkien's legendarium. Those advanced civilizations and their ruins were a concept in fiction before elves. You cannot go and just say "these things in Conan are sort of like these things in LotR" when Conan came first. Utter insanity.

>>95918332
You mean the setting or the franchise as a whole? Because both are funny.

>>95920207
Agreed. If your setting is boring without dwarves and elves, it will be boring with them. IMO fantasy races are a crutch more often than not.

>>95920140
nta, but aside from having a demon king, it doesn't particularly smack of stock standard isekai setting tropes.

>>95920454
Agree, this is truly the worst part about modern elves and dwarves in ttrpgs.

>>95920421
Ancient Greeks were just thinking of elven high magic and elf hubris in when they wrote about Atlantis.

>>95920483
ancient times of living gods and small elven lands overshadowed by Men are common ttrpg style fantasy
but I don't watch isekai, so dunno

>>95920421
that's not what I wrote. I just pointed out that narrative parallels are a lot closer than the initial post seemed to imply. Probably because they have the same foundational origin and later fantasy builds on earlier works to a larger or lesser degree.

Point being that you can make something that's more inspired by Howard and still have your typical fantasy races with their associated narrative tropes

>>95912918 (OP)
No, the elves were just one of several races that got wiped out when the humans and lizardmen went on a crusade against the moon

>>95920541
Based

>>95920248
>You could totally read conan and the stuff that inspired conan (ancient history, myths, western, other pulp adventure/fantasy) and make a setting with the usual fantasy races without too much trouble.
You could also buy the nicest, most comfortable and softest sofa you could find and then take a huge liquid shit on it.

>>95920442
The franchise's downfall isn't funny, it's boring. Oh, there's a little entertainment from them going both too hard and somewhat half-assed on LGBT+ stuff, but mostly it was just greedy execs shitting up a game in a vain attempt to follow the leader instead of letting games have their own voice and style.

>>95920691
I don't know, I thought the manner in which Veilguard flubbed everything was pretty funny. Just imagine going back in time and showing DAO fans the "pulling a bharv" scene.

>>95912918 (OP)
Nah. The elves in my setting are the quintessential "uncontacted tribials", living in the dense woods, occasionally eating each other, worshipping demons, and being more or less uncivilized scum who still have the gall to think of themselves as superior because they talk to trees.

>>95920442
Every single game not only feels like a completely different IP, they all keep lowering the bar. For its flaws Origins is a masterpiece next to 2, which is a masterpiece next to Cisquisition, which is a masterpiece next to The Shithard.

>>95920752
Primitive/savage elves are criminally underrated.

>>95912918 (OP)
You missed the worldbuilding general

>>95920254
Yeah, if you just want to have retarded elves for whatever (maybe contrarian or elf-hating) reasons.
Or basically, the guy that responded to your post.

>>95920784
Agreed, that's why I put them in my setting. One of the plot points I put in the story was that some people (humans) think the elves once had a grand and expansive, advanced empire in the past but it fell to ruin. Only after a lot of context clues and exploring it's discovered that they never did. No lost cities in the jungles, no great achievements, just barely clothed elves living in the dirt, scratching out an existence with primitive tools, and occasionally acting on the behalf of demons who send them to do all manner of skullduggery because they think they're gods.

>>95920784
facts

>>95918603
>The entire 'long lived races mature slower' seemed dumb to me
It works if we're talking about turtle people or something but for elves or dwarves it's kinda pointless

>>95912918 (OP)
DA was weird for that, given that the Elves are also like the designated victim race. I've always preferred them as a remnant of an older stage of life in-setting which has endured, but is no longer entirely suited for the new paradigm. Of course in this capacity they have a lot of influence on early humanity's myths and legends and such, but not the cosmology. Elves live under the same stars as everyone else, they've just been looking at them for longer.

>>95920967
What about the other races?

>>95912918 (OP)
No.

>>95921310
Elves, dwarves, and orcs all live on their own world and orbits the human planet in a binary planetary system. Humans and dwraves have been nominally aware of each other by seeing the glow of cities for centuries and even began to communicate in rudimentary ways by making larger fires in geometric shapes but nothing of substance was said.
Humans were the first to achieve spaceflight and arrived on the elf/dwarf/orc planet and immediately established communications with the dwarves since they were the only technologically advanced race (hovering somewhere around the pre-industrial era).
The adventures center around one of the human expeditions to explore the planet.

>>95912918 (OP)
No, they're extremely reclusive and have done very little.

>>95920931
You dont have to play it for laughs. The idea that long-lived races are rigid and slow to pick up new ideas is well-established. This is just that, but on a "daily" basis.

What actually changes honestly? You look at most fantasy and only humans and elves matter anyway. You'll ave a ton of races, maybe even dragons and stuff but none of them matter.

>>95912918 (OP)
Yes
And they're even the king fuckups who are partly responsible for why everything is falling apart at the seams. They're rapidly losing face to the other races, notably humans, who despite living 1/10th to age are picking up this whole magic thing much quicker and aggressively. The setting is now hurtling towards the entirty of reality entering a magical black hole of entropy because elves are king fuckups that suck at babyproofing the house. Antimagic as a concept wasn't invented until the god damn gnomes figured out how "teleportation magic" works.

>>95912918 (OP)
>The earliest race of immortals were a precursor race whose influence can be felt to this day

No. Shit.
It would bizarre if they didn't have such a lasting effect. Arguably the only reason that Dwarves aren't more of an influence is because they kept to themselves while being largely underground and possessive of their lore, language, customs, and culture to pretty much all outsiders.

One of the things that pisses me off about the Underdark is how it isn't a major dwarves territory when they should have conquered the hell out of that place and raped every ore and glowing crystal from it's walls.

>>95912918 (OP)
Half half really

>>95926484
>>The earliest race of immortals were a precursor race whose influence can be felt to this day
>No. Shit.

And why would elves be the "earliest race of immortals"?
Why are there elves to begin with?

>Arguably the only reason that Dwarves
Elves + Dwarves in a setting that's not Middle Earth = the setting is garbage

>>95925146
>You dont have to play it for laughs.
Even if you don't play it for laughs it'll be funny.
You expect short lived monsters to be retards, not the fancy and eternally youthful "humans but supposedly better".

>The idea that long-lived races are rigid and slow to pick up new ideas is well-established.
Not the same thing as "retard needs 500 years to learn what a human figures out in months".

>>95926555
shhhhh

Remove elfwank

>>95912940
But that guy isn't ugly, he's just unattractive because he's bald.
>>95912983
rent free

>>95913179
>>95913211
shit taste

>>95913319
>such as Dante in the Divine Comedy
you're a moron, go back to tumblr

>>95913347
the weak balrogs all got killed by elves

>>95926602
>You expect short lived monsters to be retards, not the fancy and eternally youthful "humans but supposedly better".
This. From an evolutionary sense smart and short-lived race doesn't make sense unless they have a hive mind or something, all the investment in learning and energy spent on that big brain is wasted in a few years. That is why shortest-lived monkeys aren't the smartest.

>>95912948
> Canonically most beautiful Elf was based off of his own wife
> A woman he canonically had sex with
> Like with his penis and everything.

Hoisted on your own retard.

>>95913743
you are retarded

>elves did absolutely everything and were responsible for every part of the setting's history and cosmology
Controversial opinion, but Warcraft III is the one that did the best with this trope.