23 years later, and no one can tell me what a lawful good paladin was supposed to do here.

Wait for every villager to turn into a zombie before you kill them while working to minimize how many Mal'ganis gets. There's probably a challenge run video on YouTube about it.

>>95924555 (OP)
there is: kill the zombies, coral and cordon the civilians, explain to them they were infected by an insidious enemy with a virulent plague and it works rapidly and there is no cure for it at this time. give them their last rites, a mass of the dying and tell them they will be given the Mercy of The Light when they innevitably turn so they will avoid a horrible fate in undeath.
If they ask why it happened to them, tell them it was means to an end, to taint the reputation of Prince Arthas.
Give them comfort in their last living moments and give them the peace they are meant to have after they turn, then cremate the bodies so the Scourge can't use their biomass.

>>95924555 (OP)
Start a quarantine with regular frequent city patrols. First order of business is collecting and disposing of any plagued grain they find. Kill any undead found in the city, possibly with some kind of signal being sent out should a patrol find the dreadlord prowling around.

>>95924555 (OP)
Listen

>>95924555 (OP)
Win the war before this even happens.

>>95924555 (OP)
He did the right thing. Any other option is retarded and just gets more people killed.

>>95924555 (OP)
This game's plot felt like the raw first draft of a script instead of a properly done story
But it's still top tier amongst western vidya plots somehow

fuck off, /v/ermin.

>>95924555 (OP)
Rape the plague away

>>95925093
The awkward pacing is a consequence of tension between RPG, RTS, linear storytelling, and open sidequest. Additionally, we have early development information showing initial game structure incompatible with much of how the final story was told, so some of the inelegance is because it's literally pieced together from rather significant overhauls.

We also have early development info on World of Warcraft that indicates the Rexxar campaign may have been derived from a prototype of it, like how D&D 3.5's Tome of Battle is back-ported from a rejected 4e prototype.

>>95924555 (OP)
Years of posting this same old tired and boring thread with the same arguments repeated over and over and you still haven't played any games /v/ermin.

>>95924967
He got everyone in the entire kingdom killed by doing exactly what he did. If Arthas were ever going to save Lordaeron he would have NOT done exactly as the demons wanted him to do, starting by not killing innocent people.

>>95924836
All of this happening without outright rebellion is inevitable. People dying would be inevitable, zombies all over will be inevitable.

>>95926321
>He got everyone in the entire kingdom killed by doing exactly what he did
?!?!?!

I've never played any of these games but if you're not an autist or the worst kind of edgelord then you'd know the good part comes before the lawful part, otherwise you're just lawful neutral in denial.
Cartesian grid alignment is gay

>>95924555 (OP)
He was supposed to shit and piss and cum himself very nice
But he did some chaotic evil oath breaking shit like kill a dude and post video games on /tg/

>>95924555 (OP)
Quarantine and cure where possible, put those you can't out of their misery.
The king is giving an evil order and any paladin worth his golden pantaloons will always do what is both Lawful and Good, never weighing one over the other.

>>95924555 (OP)
Warcraft doesn't have an alignment axis, your premise is invalid.

>>95924555 (OP)
>tell your friends and allies "we must act fast to prevent desaster, i hope we´re not too late"
>slay all scourge they encounter
>kill all obviously infected and turned
>those who do look fine will be escorted outside town and put into quarantine in camp
You will still get messy scenes with the general populace, but as far as lawful good goes, its about as fair and resonable as possble, even it it means you have to bear greater risk (which is what a paladin should do for a good cause)

>>95924555 (OP)
Do what Arthas did, but once the purge is over, rather than following Mal'Ganis to Northrend, lay down your arms and wait for the rest of Lordaeron's forces to arrive. Arthas did the right thing by purging the city and, based on the following cutscene showing apparent surviving civilians burning corpses, did make some effort to spare the uninfected. Where he really fucked up was in following Mal'Ganis to Northrend instead of staying in Lordaeron, passing on the information he had gathered to the rest of Lordaeron's armed forces, and accepting whatever punishment he might receive for culling Stratholme.

>>95924555 (OP)
Humor Uther for about 5 more minutes until the unkillable Dreadlord appeared and made any idea of quarantine unfeasible.

>>95927673
Yeah could have at least asked Uther and Jaina what THEIR big idea was because they needed to have it right goddamn now

Part of me gets annoyed when good guy characters get to keep their hands clean AND the catastrophe is averted because someone else took SOME action where they didn't and also copped all the moral condemnation.

>>95924555 (OP)
Oftentimes, people arguing about this don't see the forest for the trees. Arthas' order to purge the city probably wasn't the best "good" decision, but it was the best option available given the circumstances.
The cutscene after the mission shows the surviving peasants piling up bodies while the city burns around them. Arthas' single-minded pursuit of Mal'ganis shows that he is impulsive and lacks compassion. He left the people he was trying to save to clean up his mess. Not Lawful-Good behavior. Also: >>95926999

>>95924648
It's easier to attack-click the villagers as they emerge. It still adds to the count and they are weaker than the zombies.

>>95926826
>but if you're not an autist or the worst kind of edgelord then you'd know the good part comes before the lawful part
Even an autist should know this, seeing as the rules for paladinhood have always punished Evil transgressions far more harshly than Chaotic ones. A paladin who commits a Chaotic act must perform some atonement but doesn't lose access to paladin abilities in the meantime. A paladin who commits an Evil act ceases to be a paladin, immediately and irrevocably.

>>95926867
>will always do what is both Lawful and Good, never weighing one over the other.
Wrong. Good is expressly and unambiguously supposed to take precedent over Law.

>>95924555 (OP)
Ironically Arthas had the most logical plan. Uther and Jaina refused to purge the city because the people inside were not corrupted and considered innocents. They would have no qualms about purging the city once everyone had become ghouls and zombies to prevent them from spreading to other places. Arthas knew the city was already lost and decided to get ahead of the outbreak and kill everyone before they turned which would pose a greater risk to his forces.

If the city was left to fully die on it's own, the ensuing battle could cost the lives of many soldiers. Uther would have to live with the shame of letting paladins needlessly die in a fight that could have been prevented if he followed Arthas. It's called triage and it's a real thing.

>>95926867
There's no cure.

>>95924555 (OP)
Fucking explain myself when rveryone understandly balks at the "kill these unarmed villagers!" Order.

>>95924555 (OP)
Walk away from an obvious lose-lose situation meant to drive him into corruption and go to Kalimdor.

People just refuse to accept that because they don't like the plot so these discussions always degenerate into people demanding that the plot be something that it's not.

>How can you even consider that? There's got to be some other way!
>Okay Uther, I'm all ears. What alternative to you propose?

Arthas just had to not have a spergfit about his friends having completely understandable objections. If he had talked it out with them for ten seconds, one of two things would've happened: either they'd think of a better alternative, or they wouldn't. And if they wouldn't, they'd be persuaded that while difficult and painful, Arthas's proposal was the right one, and support him.

Instead Arthas just REEEEEEE's the moment he hears their understandably shocked reactions and kicks them off the team.

>>95927775
I don't play MMOs. While that sucks, it is the Paladin's duty to give them a peaceful rest.

>>95927742
Is that a WoW thing? Because the Complete Book of Paladins from 2E AD&D says otherwise.

>>95928274
arthas jumped on slaughtering people, while it might have been the only solution, the good would have been to actually communicate the issue with the doomed citizens rather than break into their home and murder them like bandits

>>95929099
The same edition’s Paladin entry in the PHB says that a Paladin has to go and apologize to a priest if he commits a Chaotic act - but he doesn’t lose any of his Paladin powers in the meantime and it IS a forgivable transgression.

Conversely, knowingly committing an Evil act causes the Paladin to fall, “immediately and irrevocably”. There’s no coming back from it, you’re just a shitty Fighter from now on.

So no, it’s not a WoW thing, it’s an AD&D thing. A Paladin can get away with being nonlawful, but he can’t get away with being nongood. Ergo, if there’s ever a conflict between Law and Good, the Paladin must choose Good, or else they don’t get to be Paladins anymore.

>>95924555 (OP)
Arthas did what a lawful good paladin would do. How is this even a discussion?

>>95926321
If he didn't, Lordaeron would have been overwhelmed and the Scourge would have exterminated everyone on Azeroth. By doing what he did, he set up a scenario where the Scourge could be beaten. Even if unintentionally.

>>95927614
This exactly. Where Arthas fucked up was abandoning his kingdom to pursue a cursed weapon. If he had chosen to remain in Lordaeron, he'd have avoided falling all together.

>>95930457
I notice how you haven't gotten a rebuttal.
It's always nice getting shitposters shut down.

>>95927775
And Martha's had the meta-knowledge that the audience had? Or was merely assuming they was no cure because their attempts failed so far?

>>95930770
He had the knowledge that they had no cure and 30 minutes to invent one.

Have jaina freeze all of them until you can work out a cure later

>>95930496
> Lordaeron would have been overwhelmed and the Scourge would have exterminated everyone on Azeroth

You know this for absolute certain? How?

>>95930496
Utterly meaningless because it fell anyway directly because of him after he was corrupted.

>>95924555 (OP)
>what a lawful good paladin was supposed to do here.
His best.

Lawful good doesn’t exist in WoW stop shoehorning alignments like that, they absolutely suck. In any case, this decision was arguably correct. The problem was with him going to Northrend but it’s understandable from a psychological perspective since he was at his most vulnerable after killing the people he swore to protect. Perfect moment to play mind games on him
Jaina was the big failure here. She had a woman moment, left his future husband and betrayed the kingdom. If she had been with him she could’ve been the one to prevent Arthas from leaving

>>95931486
>Lawful good doesn’t exist in WoW stop shoehorning alignments like that, they absolutely suck
That sounds like something someone who is neither Lawful nor Good would say.

>>95924555 (OP)
Why do you have to post this every month?

The people of Stratholme started turning into zombies on their own midway through Arthas' murder spree. There was basically no possible timescale in which they could've found an alternative or even an outright solution without basically dooming the city even more than it already was, and even then, nobody actually presented any of these supposed alternatives; and there was no time to stop and research any. Quarantining the city is even stupider, it's just going to result in an army of zombies inside the town, in control of a dangerous fucking demon lord. Yeah, they were totally going to keep him contained there, right?
In the end, it was a choice between purging the city or letting an entire army of undead manifest in the middle of Lordaeron in the command of a supremely fucking dangerous enemy. You can't hand many many many things to Arthas but you can hand this one and this one alone to him i think.

>>95924864
yeah, we'll just open a screening checkpoint so that we can verify the status of the tens of thousands of ghouls, skeletons, and demonic summonings erupting in a massive genocidal wave from the city! you fucking retard.

>>95930770
He had an entire city about to be turned into hostile soldiers before his eyes. There's not really any opportunity to research a cure when the Plague would kill and reanimate in a matter of days and Stratholme had been munching on infected grain for some time before he got there. Case-in-point, the transformations start pretty much as soon as he arrives.

>>95924555 (OP)
Traditional games?

>>95933458
Things that weren't actually happening considering the pace that people turned into zombies was incredibly slow in general. And since Stratholme factually has survivors after the mission burning the corpses of the people Arthas slaughtered I'd say no they weren't actually all about to turn. The immediate danger Stratholme presented is getting vastly overstated.

>>95933473
The infected grain was delivered earlier that day. It's frankly insane to assume that everyone had already baked infected rolls and delivered them everywhere in the city, and that everyone had eaten one.

>>95924555 (OP)
>"There's got to be another way."
>"Do you have one?"

>>95930496
Lordaeron was overwhelmed, retard. And the rest of Azeroth was fine.

>>95924555 (OP)
Because people don't know what Law means, primarily because they don't understand Chaos.

If we renamed the alignments to:
Altruistic Collectivist vs Predatory Individualist
Hierarchic Authoritarian vs Egalitarian Anarchic

Then suddenly it's a lot more clear.
A hierarchist believes that authority as a concept is valid and that certain people validly wield that authority and that valid authority should always be obeyed, it's not just a convenient social construct (neutral) or a violence-backed infringement on personal liberty disguised with a pretty self-righteous coat of paint (chaos).

So as long as Arthas's claim to authority was still valid, to Uther, he should be obeyed.

So was it valid? To a Good, for authority to be valid, it must itself be Good, i.e. it must be altruistically motivated, it can't be callously self-seeking and unsympathetic (neutral) or worse maliciously exploitative (evil).

SO. Was Arthas's order righteous? Or was it out of malice or cowardice?

Well, it was indeed an order to kill innocents. However, the context was that the entire town's grain was plague-tainted meaning that everyone within was unrescuable imminently dead or rather undead. And that it was both better for the infected to die while still human, and also that undead are an imminent threat to even more innocents.

What Arthas ordered was a mercy killing and preemptive culling of guaranteed threat to innocents, who he as a Good King is obligated to protect. LG.

It's even more cut and dry than the Gygax baby killing, because though Greyhawk Orcs are innately CE as adults, there is the SCANT possibility of reform. Maybe they find a Helm of Opposite Alignment. Maybe they find a way to sublimate those violent, rebellious predatory CE inclinations into CE productive member of society, maybe as a repossesser of loaned goods or a bounty hunter or executioner. If they can manage their temper maybe a used horse salesman.

A mindless undead is just an engine of destruction.

>>95924555 (OP)
The lawful good thing to do would be to stop posting this thread every week.

>>95924555 (OP)
Simply kill them normally.
The unit cap is 200, arthas will NEVER be outnumbered.

>>95938174
>However, the context was that the entire town's grain was plague-tainted meaning that everyone within was unrescuable imminently dead or rather undead.

Except of course that the cursed grain had only arrived that morning. It is unlikely that everyone in the town had already eaten tainted grain.

A lawful good paladin wouldn't have gotten there in the first place. His pursuit of vengeance and hatred led him directly into a trap. Stepping foot in the city was the moment when Arthas fell from grace, and even he knew it.

>>95924555 (OP)
See this >>95933458
Everyone wants to make up some fanfiction scenario where there's more time, more resources, or otherwise massage the situation into being something easier to manage so that other, better solutions might be possible.
But, the fact of the matter is, in the scenario that actually HAPPENED, what Arthas did WAS the only legitimate solution. The only real problem was that he did it with a slightly cunty attitude. Any alternative he could have tried would have just been a retarded boondoggle that wasted time while more people died and the situation grew worse.

>>95943665
No, in the scenario that happened, the scourge has a unit cap.

>>95946817
>I have autism

>23 years later, and no one can tell me what a lawful good paladin was supposed to do here.
definitely not run away like Uther did

>>95924555 (OP)
Well for starters, not kill people who haven't done anything wrong. So Arthas fails at the first hurdle already.

>>95946983
The scenario isn't as morally deep as you would choose to believe, it is in fact a contrived video game point of drama.
At no point will there be more than 200 scourge, because blizzard are of the more cowardly branch of RTS.

>>95947002
Obviously, kill the scourge.
it's not difficult. The only times you lose are off screen.

>>95947002
Last time this thread happened I pointed out that he honestly should have been executed for desertion when he did that.
If I were Terenas I would have had his ass strung up.

>>95924864
Meaning your troops are immediately overrun by the far larger undead population plus literal demon that can pick them off.

>>95927614
Yeah, the trap for Arthas was his pride.

>>95933651
>And since Stratholme factually has survivors after the mission burning the corpses of the people Arthas slaughtered I'd say no they weren't actually all about to turn
some people escaped, numbnuts.

>>95924836
>so they will avoid a horrible fate in undeath
bad news there
in warcraft, if someone dies while undead their soul is eternally damned
killing them while living is literally their only salvation

>>95927614
Consider that nobody but Arthas and his men knew about the undead and people turning into zombies. For everyone else he ordered to slaughter perfectly fine city full of healthy people.

>>95948100
>in warcraft, if someone dies while undead their soul is eternally damned
I hate to argue retarded shadowlands lore on /tg/, but that's not true at all.

>>95924555 (OP)
I don't remember it well, but didn't some of the people in the city were already turning into zombies?
If that's the case then I wonder if Arthas had enough men (not in game, in lore) to actually guard all the gates and if it would be enough, because desperate townsfolk might start attacking the soldiers to get past them as they are chased by zombies.
It would likely be much more messier than the game portrays it.

>>95924555 (OP)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3tjLN1JutU

>>95924555 (OP)
Tell the orcs that they are free to immigrate

>>95924555 (OP)
How many times are you going to make this spam thread, faggot? Kill yourself.

>>95924648
>waiting for innocents to turn into monsters and damn themselves by slaughtering their families so you can say you don't have innocents' blood on your hands, only monsters'
Abusing loopholes to pretend you're clear is lawful evil.

>>95933426
It sparks good discussion. Sorry if it bumps the Warhammer "woooooooaaaaah could Troglor Maximus beat Wumpus Gumpus!?!??!" thread off the board.

>>95947426
People who don't have a crippling mental disability understand what abstraction is.

Glad you could bake it, Uther.

Watch your tone with me, boy. You may be the waiter, but I'm still your superior as a chef.

As if I could forgetti. Listen, Uther, there's something about the plaguette you should knead. Oh no... It's too late. These peopleroni have all been infectedanana. They may look al dente now, but its a matter of thyme before they turn into the unedible.

What?!

This entire citrella must be peeled.

How can you even cook that? There's got to be some other whey.

Damn it, Umami. As your future chef, I order you to broil this city!

You are not my chef yet, boyardee. Nor would I obey that command if you were!

Then I must consider this an act of seasoning.

Seasoning? Have you sauced your mince, Arthas?!

Have I? Lord Umami, by my right of succession and the sovereignty of my crown of roast pork, I hereby rehydrate you from your commandard and suspenderoni your pepperoni from service.

Arthas, you just can't...

*Ding* It's done! Those of you who have the will to taste this flan, follow me. The rest of you? Get out of my kitchen.

You've just tossed a terrible salad, Arthas.

Jaina?

I'm sorry, Arthas. I can't watch you cook this.

>>95924555 (OP)
did they ever figure out a way to just cure the plague? I mean they got priests and paladins

>>95948377
I was actually about to write why he was wrong but you're right, its not worth explaining shadowlands

>>95924555 (OP)
Cast polymorph to remove the plague status effect.

>>95924648
GiantGrantGames did that.

>>95951235
Yes, a big hammer.

>>95951243
The mad thing for me is that in the Chronicles book they state that the Shadowlands is just an endless grey hellscape, and then not even a year later they release Shadowlands and say "um actually no". Absolutely maddening.

>>95951235
Those already infested were pretty much lost, but the could have vaxxed the rest to keep it from spreading.

>>95930457
Right, but that's not how paladins work in warcraft. You just have to have the conviction that you're the good guy and everyone who disagrees with you is a shit and you'll keep your powers. See the scarlet crusade.

Conversly, you'll lose your powers if you waver, see Turalyon before understanding that the orcs were savage monsters, not actual people.

>>95953293
>>Conversly, you'll lose your powers if you waver
Like Arthas after Stratholme.

>>95953305
He could still cast holy light, ressurection and divine shield.
Been a while since i played it, but i think he lost either holy light or ressurection after picking up frostmourne, but before that he didn't waver for a second.

>>95953331
Abstraction for game mechanics. Story-wise, and explicit in the novel, his loss of power began immediately afterwards.

>>95953293
OP was asking literally about what a lawful good paladin and what you're describing isn't lawful good. Nigger.

>>95953331
He had the same powers in the original warcraft 3 for the rest of the mission, just his damage type changed to Chaos damage. Don't know if Reforged changed it, most likely didn't.

>>95953352
you and he are both equally niggers, since a lawful good paladin would simply fight the scourge until they stop.
The scourge can only ever field 200 guys against him, he will never be overwhelmed.

>>95924555 (OP)
reminder the map designer who made this level is a massive retard and thinks anyone who sides with Arthas or shows him the slightest bit of empathy is a psychopath

HELLO EVERYBODY I AM HERE

>>95949561
If they wanted to display more units they could have.
They were cowards, and so they get their plotholes.

>>95933718
Idk man back in the day the bakers would work all day and night making bread for the masses

>>95953488
i dont care

>>95951235
Not really, there was one questline where you try to save a dying, plagued Paladin and travel to multiple powerful beings and factions trying to find a means to help, but ultimately all you are able to do is get the naaru to sanctify his spirit as he passes.

>>95948473
There were, but the issue is that the plague didn't have a cure and by the time people started showing symptoms it was basically already too late
There were also scourge agents already in the city so if they just barred the gates then it would be tantamount to handing the city over to them. Which would be REALLY bad since, at the time, Stratholme was the most populated city in the known world, and letting the scourge convert the entire populace to undead would be an army that fucking NO ONE could deal with effectively.
There really was no good option with stratholme, only the least bad ones.
That being said, Arthas was implusive and stupid for not taking five to ten extra minutes to explain to Uther and Jaina the details of what was going on.

>>95951235
Not that I know of. The best that happened is that the forsaken found a way to immunize people against it, though at the same time there were multiple versions of it being made

>>95961721
>That being said, Arthas was implusive and stupid for not taking five to ten extra minutes to explain to Uther and Jaina the details of what was going on.
And too prideful to not chase after Mal'Ganis after the cleansing.

>>95924555 (OP)
Have slightly longer and more in-depth conversation with Uther, even if it costs you a few extra minutes to explain what you did and saw in the last month. If Uther still doesn't believe you, bring others like Jaina into it as witnesses. It's not like extra people will die if you take too long, you're already going to put them all to the sword.

>>95961721
Pretty sure the plague having no cure wasn't known at the time, so Arthas was still bloodthirsty and jumping the gun. The number one thing utilitarians don't get is actual lawful good has never, and never will be about taking the path of least resistance.

>>95951235
Becoming a Worgen.

>>95930828
she wasn't that strong back then, but if she was that strong, yea. Best solution.

>>95933483
lmao was looking for this