Brotherly love edition

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>Thread Question
What are the best/coolest minor + major splat combinations? CofD's "fantasy people" count as minor splats for this question.

What branch of the Technocracy would you join?

>>95924862 (OP)
>minor + major splat combinations?
All of them are objectively less cool that stacking minor splats, but a Kinain Mage is one of the few combos that doesn't fuck over an awakened mage. "Fae Blood" is the name of the merit that lets a mage be this and it explicitly lets you use cantrips as well as True Magick with zero downsides.
It's fitting that the changeling devs were the only ones that didn't hate fun.

>>95924862 (OP)
2e Wolf-Blooded + Vampire (Gangrel (Dead Wolf))

>>95924938
>less cool that stacking minor splats,
Fuck, I was going to include that as a option in the TQ, but got distracted. Please do elaborate on that.

>>95924904
>What branch of the Technocracy would you join?
Progenitors, I want to make my dong bigger.

>>95924968
Numina splats especially stack really well.
There've also been things that hint stacking demi-splats improve their ability limits. Like the canon kinfolk/revenant bloodline that got the ability to use gifts up to 3rd level rather than the standard kinfolk 1st level only.
Normally werewolf/changeling rules prevent a kinfolk + kinain from having both gnosis and glamour at the same time. However, kinain are able to draw on dross and the rules only ben glamour, not learning arts/realms. You could absolutely have a celtic witch in the style of that sorcerer bloodline last thread that was a kinfolk with gifts + gnosis and had the ability to cast cantrips using dross gathered from magical locations.
Sorcerer alchemists can create potions that give you a splat's full powers, so they could potentially make normally impossible minor/demi-splat combos like dhampir/dhampyr + anything else. Can't make kinains or nephilim/laham though.

>>95925074
>Like the canon kinfolk/revenant bloodline that got the ability to use gifts up to 3rd level
This is a thing anyone capable of using gift is able to do. Fera are also capable of using each other's "exclusive" gifts up to 3rd level before spiritual/biological differences make that impossible. The thing limiting kinfolk/fera are the same thing limiting a cub from learning 5th level gifts, purely social limitations. Hell, kinfolk and even normal humans are even capable of performing Rites if they can chinimage an incarnae/celestine/supernal into sponsoring them, because Rites are powered entirely by the spirits.

The only difference between Kitsune kinfolk and Bastet kinfolk is that one has autism.

>>95924904
Void Engineers all the way. Put me in the BCD, I'd kill every EDE in the county. I would fuck over Pentex's biospheric space assets so hard the Syndicate's complaints division would have me on speed dial. Lupines wouldn't know whether they want to kill me or fuck me.

>>95924859
Take Grandfather Thunder as a totem and he'll spot you 5 per story.

>>95925420
Grandfather Thunder gives you willpower POINTS, not permanent dots. The sorcery path that creates fetishes/awakened items cost you dots off your willpower score that you can only get back by re-buying them with xp.

>>95925499
The fetish sorcery requires "permanent willpower points" and Grandfather Thunder gives you "willpower points" for the story. This doesn't specify that the points are temporary willpower points, so it could be reasonably interpreted that the points are generic willpower, which encompasses both temporary and permanent on your sheet. The fact that you lose access to them at the end of the story doesn't change their nature, and in fact encourages expending them in this way.
>Verificátion nøt required

>>95925547
Anon, the mage revised corebook clarifies that willpower dots and "permanent willpower points" are the same thing. Beyond that, even if it didn't make that clear it's clear what the devs meant. You're not going to weasel-word WoD like it's a D&D 3.5 RAW argument.

Share with me Gangrel characters or concepts that you really like. I don't like Gangrel nearly enough and I want to change that.

Is it possible for a Marauder to ever come back to his senses? Or are they fully lost?
And if it's the latter, would killing them allow the Avatar to "heal" or would it be a Nephandi type scenario where whoever gets that Avatar next is completely fucked?

>>95925792
>Is it possible for a Marauder to ever come back to his senses?
No
>And if it's the latter, would killing them allow the Avatar to "heal"
Avatar doesn't need healing, it's actually fine. The difference between a mage and a marauder is that the mage has redirected paradox to flow into his mind/soul instead of letting his avatar bare the burden. This leaves him able to bring the awakened will of his avatar down on reality like a ton of bricks, but means that all the blow-back is directed into his fucking Brain. The process is detailed in the book of madness.

>>95925600
I see. In that case, fetish mass production is still possible but you'll have to use Enhancement 5 to make golems to do it for you (they're made like sorcerer characters, so just give them Spirit Awakening 5 and the dice necessary to use it.)
Step 1. Buy a warehouse you got with money from Easy Credit, the Almighty Dollar, or what have you.
Step 2. Make an arbitrary number of golem servants. Give them the submissive or weak willed flaws for more freebies to spend on being better at sorcery and to prevent some kind of worker uprising.
3. Become a spiritual arms dealer.
Optional: still use Grandfather Thunder to increase your golem production by 5 per story.

In MtAs, is it possible for a mage to subconsciously create effects without being a marauder? Even going as far as actively trying to do the opposite of whatever spell they're casting. My idea was someone who thinks he's cursed with bad luck, but in reality it's his own power that's fucking up his life. Just small coincidental stuff like tripping over things at inopportune times, always losing coin flips, constantly stubbing your toe, etc. Or maybe it could be flavored as low intensity but long term paradox backlash?

>>95925851
The golems don't have any dots in advantages during creation, so you need to go through the slow-ass process of teaching them and keeping track of their xp.

>>95925710
Not really a character concept, but a couple of games ago there was that one Gangrel Elder who acted through their animal ghouls as he slept. So one night he just kept killing random Brujah by dropping turtles with Fortitude on their heads with an eagle.

>>95925907
If he had multiple personality disorder sure. Otherwise it's generally a "No"... unless you're playing M20. The anniversary edition retconned true magic from being a deliberate act of will to a manifestation of your paradigm and effectively made All mages demi-marauders.

>>95925710
Gangrel are a great starting point for many concepts because of the natural flexibility of their origins and powers.
>Gangrel ""Empath"" (Mostly Animalism, uses Fortitude for mental fortitude and utility Protean for its effect on people)
>Gangrel Second-Story Man (Protean fo climbing claws, night vision, and surreptitious animal forms, Animalism as his portable security system, will probably pick up Auspex with this)
>Gangrel Vesper (creative use of Fortitude and Mist Form to be able to live in and on airplanes indefinitely)

>>95925912
Other than having a limited attribute and ability pool, the golems are created like any other character. Being the sorcerer book, and there being no generic wod character template, you'd create them like a sorcerer with the ensuing sorcery paths and freebie points.
Yeah, it would be reasonable to create them without advantages or freebie points but you could still just enchant them again, sort of like how alchemy bestows supernatural powers, to give them sorcery, so at worst it's adding one step to the process.

>>95925981
>and there being no generic wod character template
There is. The generic template is called a "mortal" or "human". You need alchemy 6 to add a template to a character(enchanting hits its limited at adding capped 2 dots of advantages from a template), so a pretty tall order when you already need enchanting 5 just to make your homunculus/golem/robot/whatever. You then Also need Spirit Awakening 4+ to make the fetishes/awakened item themselves(and make the potion that gives that knowledge to the basement autists you're making). That's a late-game sorcerer with some serious power, analogous to a mage with mastery in multiple spheres.

Playing Chronicles as a Mekhet, currently have Obfuscate 2, Dominate 1, Celerity 1, about to have enough XP to buy a new dot and I'm considering Obfuscate 3 vs Dominate 2. Full on invisibility seems really good, so I'm leaning towards Ob 3.

Especially because there's werewolves about and at least two groups of hunters in town.

>>95926013
That sounds mostly right but I don't think you need Alchemy 6. Enchantment 4 is enough to replicate level 2 effects from other splats, so Enchantment 5 should be enough to replicate at least level 3 supernatural abilities. Considering static sorcery as easier to replicate or using mentorships as the standard, you should be able to enhance an item to perform any level of sorcery that's at least 1 below one you know. Putting 5 dots into Enhancement and 28 freebie points (after flaws) into Spirit Awakening 4, it's doable as a starting character.

>>95924904
Void Engineers probably. Progenitors and Iteration X can be cool too if you're type who grows his own monsters or builds gadgets respectively.

>>95924938
It does make sense, since Fairy magic is ''reality warping'' in a way that's somewhat similar to sphere magic. Also given how ''wacky'' Mage lives are, barring being converted into a technocrat or being some kind of modern nihilist you're pretty much guaranteed to keep your Banality low so you're gonna lose your Fae magic easily and you're gonna be pretty good at it.

>It's fitting that the changeling devs were the only ones that didn't hate fun.
Kek. Reminds of the guy from the Blood Treachery book who had a meltdown at the idea of revenant mages. Thankfully the V20 devs later on realized how underwhelming giving a mage one dot of disciplines is so they fixed that combination.

>>95925074
I know that normally kinfolk with gnosis can't awaken, but what would happen if the witch you mentioned brute forces an awakening with alc 6? Nothing? Loses half her powers?

What's Joliet like as a city?
Seems like a good place to set a camapign.

I think the Red List is neat, and many of the characters on it are cool, but it's something so high power level I fear my group will never get a chance to interact with them.

>>95924904
New World Order. Yes, I like to watch. And retcon reality. And styling over all the Warhammer rejects and dorks in lab coats with my sharp black suit.

>The Celestial Chorus’ Guardian Orders be like

>>95926315
Image illustrates some of my frustration with the Technocracy/Traditions split. A great deal of the time, a Technocrat will always be a collectivist and a Mage will be an idividualist. Even a radical Landian Syndicate-er still believes they are, foremost, contributing to a larger effort. The exceptions only really exists at the upper levels for Technocrats, and certain Akashics, Ecstatics, and Shaman. The whole distinction of making the Syndicate the bad guys (which they started moving away from almost immediately) is based in the false belief that fascist types actually want conformity for themselves, and believe what they enforce.

>>95926434
Kinda shitty to live in afaik

>>95926334
Should a Revenant Mage be a convergent Widderslainte, or just deeply conflicted from the Beast and Avatar pulling in opposite directions?

>>95926653
latter according to V20 rules

>>95925710
N-noiad shaman (can't do much more than actually seeing and talking to spirits, pretty much a diplomat).

>>95926315
Then anarch and talmaera compass

I will not have my ears sullyed by Hermetic Slopaganda

>>95926974
Please tell me you are a shaman.

>>95926634
>A great deal of the time, a Technocrat will always be a collectivist and a Mage will be an idividualist.
90s White Wolf was really into liberalism and I mean that by the classical definition of "individual rights and liberties come before all else." Though they were left-leaning on a lot of social issues, they had a real hateboner for any sort of collectivism, federalism, or strong government.
Communism was laughed off as a failed experiment, anyone like the Anarchs who tried to overthrow a regime and replace it with something better were depicted as wannabe tyrants, and all of the countries of Europe had annihilated any cultural identity that they once had by joining the European Union. The only good government was no government or a weak government that let people do whatever they wanted.
People love to say "White Wolf was always leftist," but most White Wolf writers back then would've probably punched you in the face if you called them socialists.

>>95924904
The Syndicate, I want to be a Rich Bastard!

>>95926588
OG Chorus of 1st Edition was based like that even more.

>>95926974
This Magi can't even sling force

If you could be a Changeling, which type of kith would you be? I'd like to be Nocker so I can craft my own clunky scuffed inventions and also so I can bang Nocker slags.

>>95925710
fortitude main gangrel illegal race driver
literal cat thief (people really sleep on mist form for stealth)
nordic rune mage

>>95926653
the revenant family that has awakened members the Rafastio are members of the verbanna on their magic side and most of them are on humanity so it's unlikely that they are nephanti related.

>>95924904
I hates this book, 1/2 “current politcal us issues” and not even 1/2 usable stuff. Dissapointing.

In regards to the question: Iteration X or NWO

>>95926501
I always liked Oisin. Yeah, I know they just ripped from the myth, but the myth is already cool. Werewoof GILF that needs to be put down...

>>95925376
My kinfolk from another mother.

>>95927389
I'd end up being a pooka. I have an awful lying problem and already have a knack for getting people to tell me things they really shouldn't (got an asshole to admit he didn't believe in god or give a shit about the church in front of his born again wife once, for example). Plus, I think I'd look cute with dog ears.

>>95927543
How's the stuff from that book unusable game-wise?

>>95927680
It always frustrates me that only the Children of Gaia can adopt people as kinfolk and you need to be an uber-hippie for the rite to work at all

Gaia's sake, can't a Glass Walker have his mad scientist etherite wife?

>>95927766
The issue is not that stuff in there ia not usable, but that so much page count is wasted on adapting the technocracy “for a modern audience” under a guise of “The Technocracy, Today”. They for, example, handle different scenarios of neohandic corruption or how many (if any) horizon realms survived. In itself good, but I do not want or need an extensive rewrite of Technocracy basics with a view on current social issues so some people can play them without getting an aneurism due to “playing the baddies”. Most people, I assume, like the Technocracy for it’s “grey” morality and the tension between individual and societal good. Between liberty and tyranny or herosim and insubordination and being government spooks.
The issue with the rules stuff is, that there was so few that was actually usable in game in comparison to pages spent on mental gymnastics due to the last election cycles (at least it smelled like that).
I am central european, so what do I care about this? Just a bad purchase money/delivered goods wise.
Sorry if I am bitching to much, but I play my tabletop games with my friends to not engage too much in divisive issues.

Is the M20 craft book worth it or is it a Lore of the Traditions thing?

>>95926087
That's not how that works anon. Being able to replicate supernatural powers to dot 3 is not the same thing as having dots in paths to 4+. By your own model, you'd need enchantment 6 to enchant the golem with the sorcery effect "create fetish", and that's only if the ST allows you to replicate supernatural powers above 2. Personally, I'd shut that down and tell you to learn alchemy.

>>95928215
I do not understand the question,I read an excerpt from a book that handled the Knights Templar. Are there multiple now? In any case, didn’t like what I read so sis not delve further then.


I would be hyped if they give modern linear magic use, it was mentioned as being in use next to “regular” awakened magic.

>>95926346
IF we go by sorcerer and mage rules, She loses All her static magic abilities and becomes a starting mage.
If the ST is nice, he'll convert all the xp she spent on gifts, arts, realms, etc, into a pool of xp she can spend on spheres as her arete rises.
>>95926334
>Blood Treachery
I have to wonder how this bullshit managed to get printed. It shat on the lore so hard that it created more plot holes than it answered. IT was early revised too, so the devs still generally cared about the quality of the game.

>>95928313
>I would be hyped if they give modern linear magic use
Don't get too excited, it's an M20 book. You'd be forced to use Sorcerer20 for all your linear magic.

>>95928313
>I read an excerpt from a book that handled the Knights Templar. Are there multiple now?
most of the crafts joined the traditions in revised because whitewolf noticed that nobody was playing crafts then in m20 they made the craft alliance so now most of these crafts have half their members in the traditions and the other half in the alliance and both sides consider each other to be no true scotsman

>>95927047
Preferable to the current crop.

>>95928329
Ah thank you, it sounds as if S20 isn’t to hot then? Dissappointing, but will give it a look. How big is the difference in comparison to Dark Ages Mage though? Thats my only reference point fornlinear magic beyond the funny True Black Hand guys.

>>95928368
I am unsure how I feel about this. I read the M20 bits and it seemed to be a case of “read old books for lore and use new rules”.

>>95928514
>it sounds as if S20 isn’t to hot then?
It's worse than Wraith 20. It is to Sorcerer Revised what W5 was to the Werewolf the Apocolypse splat.

>>95928525
>and use new rules
Don't even do this. Just use the old books period. M20 isn't worth your time and changed many mechanics to actively punish players for the crime of playing the game.

>>95928531
RIP. Sad to hear.

>>95928544
Did buy the Nephandi book, was ok. Did but the Technocracy book and disliked it. Didnt buy after that. But please elaborate on the crime part.

>>95928525
i gotta second the other anon, m20 is probably also the most cumbersome version of wod mage both in terms of layout and rules

>>95928549
For a quick comparison, just look a the resonance rules.
Every edition before 20, resonance made some magic easier and other magic harder based on the type.
In M20, resonance only acts as Anti-Arcane that makes your mage easier to find and give you the ability to increase the dice(Not affect difficulty) on One dice roll per campaign, ever. Doesn't matter if you have multiple resonances, you can only affect 1 roll.

>>95928572
Will do, I dont know a lot about Mage the Ascension rules.

What's the weirdest, yet technically lore correct, character your players (or you yourself) have submitted for a game?

My player just submitted a character whose concept is "Victim of a Great Hunter/ Zookeeper", and was further described as "human male Vicissituded into the form of a peak lion, Embraced by an allied low generation Caitiff, and released to be hunted down after a year and a day". I'm gonna allow it, even though he did buy two points of Protean on there.

>>95927389
Based verbal abuse enjoyer.

>>95928544
What I hate is that that's normal. Every edition since 1st changed things worse for the Mage players and made arbitrary rules for them. M20s choice was making most things take more Spheres and higher rankings.

>>95927389
Probably a pooka or a sidhe, though my friends would probably prefer me to be a sluagh.

>>95924904
Progenitors, ever since I learned about genetic engineering I've wanted to shape life into whatever form is needed. where others see animals and people I just see hardware to be updated. I mean when you think about it we are just made of carbon-based nanobots!

and even if we don't use genetic engineering I still think we are wasting readily available bio-robots (animals) that could somewhat easily be reprogammed to pick up litter or attack people. like imagine if we could have birds that could seek out illegal fishing vessels and drop bombs on them, we'd solve the problem of over fishing overnight! like I genuinely believe this is a solution that just might work but it's unfortunate that you aren't allowed to really use animals to their fullest extent but at least in the Technocracy I could run the experiments to prove the concept and then maybe we could you know nudge the sleepers into accepting it

>>95927389
I like Trolls for Changeling the Lost. I want to be HUGE, have the extraordinary abillity for strength and use said inhuman strength to be smarter than I look in social interactions.
Trolls are cool.

>>95929499
>Trolls are cool.
Pretty much all the CtL seemings are cool. Makes the most out of nWoD's love of archetypes.

I might be playing in a CtL game (1e template) in the fairly distant future, and I'm really enjoying crafting up a stealthy Ogre. Farwalker Kith plus Smoke being a universal contract means I can make him shockingly sneaky even at 0exp. Autumn Court to up the menace of a strong, scary monster lurking in the shadows.

>>95929342
Mage's entire run has basically been VtM larpers gradually demanding more nerfs ever since the infamous "Vampire Lawnchair" shit of pre-release. It's the exact same issue as MMOs, the retardsof the PVEs kill the game like a malignant cancers by driving out the PVPs and Roleplayers that give the game actual staying power.

what would his ban and bane be as a spirit? what would he give as a totem? I was thinking of having his ban be altering the status quo (nothing ever happens) but I would like some ideas.

>>95929730
bane: any text, image, etc. documenting a new scientific discovery or a legislation that gives equal rights to a demographic
totem: gifts that increase your banality lol

>>95929499
>I want to be HUGE

>>95925710
Upper class/aristocratic Gangrel who was embraced out of spite and goes to great pains to appear civilised and sophisticated, but his attempts to bottle up the beast make him prone to especially violent and savage frenzies fueled by his anger and self loathing over the vampiric condition.

>>95927389
Honestly, Sidhe are my favourite kith but I feel like being one in real life would suck. You don't get your improved appearance in your mortal seeming and your only other birthright only works against cantrip, in exchange you get doubly raped by banality.

>>95929995
Just take the merit that gives you your birthright in your mortal seeming, easy.

>>95929995
>oh no, I won't be able to work because the banality would kill me
>gonna have to become an immortal free-loader living in the freehold, my every whim taken care of by the Cuck-Seelie Court commoner loyalists who low-key worship me as the savior of glamour in the autumn world
Yeah, sounds like a rough life.

>>95925710
Old school big game hunter from the height of colonialism. Sire may have spite embraced him, but he dumbfounded them by not only surviving but thriving.

>>95929995
Just play an Autumn Sidhe, bro :)

>>95929995
>You don't get your improved appearance in your mortal seeming
It would be funny to be hot as fuck as a changeling, but normal people only see an ugly fuck.

>>95930087
Which is why it would suck to be one in Real Life, where none of those things exist
>>95930262
Well it scales so if you're an ugly fuck in real life you'd only be pretty hot in your changeling mien.

>>95930296
>Well it scales
I mean, there are probably a few sidhe freaks out there with some extra (beyond their birthright) chimerical-only Apperance dots.

>>95930296
What are your opinions on the noble houses? Got a favorite? Imo, way too many words are spent on them when only a handful are actually interesting, but I do have a soft spot for using Gwydion nobles.

>>95930450
NTA, but
Seelie houses ranking:
Eiluned > Beaumayn > Dougal> Gwydion> Fiona> Liam

>>95930450
They're why the Sidhe are my favourite. I like the amount of variety and roleplaying opportunity they entail, compared to every other kith being comparatively one note, although not as one note as people who aren't as familiar with Changeling make them out to be. My favourite house is probably Dougal or maybe Ailil, I made a tierlist broadly that covers my thoughts on the houses.

>>95928286
Then I think there's a category error here. Gifts are a form of information that is both mental and spiritual (you can be taught them through communication or a spirit just beams them into you). Disciplines are a form of information that is somewhere between mental and spiritual (depending on who's writing, you have to taste blood with the discipline in it, but Diablerie also teaches you disciplines by consuming the mind? / soul?).

Sorcery paths can ostensibly be learned by anyone and performed like a normal attribute + ability action, except they normally cost willpower (which isn't out of the question for mundane abilities, like holding your breath). So I think it would make more sense to encode a static sorcery path with enhancement than to make a "potion of knowing sorcery." Enhancing abilities is already well within the toolkit of Enhancement, the psuedo-ability of Sorcery shouldn't be any different. I don't think you'll agree with this, but I'd allow it at my table.

>>95930767
Why does a potion of knowing sorcery make more sense than a potion of awakening or a potion of knowing math? Both of those are things alchemy can do.

>>95930957
*Make less sense.

>>95930957
I think they're both mechanically possible, but all the Alchemy examples modify Attributes and the Enhancement examples include Ability modifications. Also alchemy seems to render more of a physical or metaphysical change in the imbiber, but enhancement seems like it could be better for "information storage."

>>95929730
> Arcadia has fallen, Gaia has Fallen, Heaven has fallen, Umbra has fallen, Magic has fallen

>But Man still stands

>>95931134
Becoming a sorcerer is a metaphysical change though. Learning to use any of the numina changes your spiritual nature. It even effects how easy it is for magic to affect you, so saying it's just "knowledge" is wrong.

>>95929730
>>95931299
You get a permanent aura of banality that weakness all supernatural magic but even sleepers can feel your "Chud" field making them dislike you

If you're able to convince someone that "Things aren't over" or "Billions must hope" within the Chud bubble the effects on sleepers is removed

>>95929730
status quo totem, any sort of fuckery that goes beyond the normal daily life of a human is severly punished by paradox, aka goes berserk by ANY sort of magic or transformation, for example a werewolf cannot transform or if they showed already transformed their strength is reduced to that of a normal human

Doesn't Sorcery Alchemy suck and the only worthwhile thing is becoming a legendary alchemist and managing to brew an Awakening potion to become a Mage? Mostly relying on supernatural ingredients to get what, Dot 3 Disciplines, Rank 3 Gifts and such?

>>95931378
Nta but your university Professor or a NASA researcher is a sorcerer. Sure, he is a Technocratic Sorcerer but there is no fundamental difference between a mystic Sorcerer and a Technocratic Extraordinary Citizen.

>>95931446
Brewing an awakening potion is the absolute worst thing you can do as a sorcerer. You're essentially nerfing yourself permanently. Beyond giving yourself the powers of any splat/demi-splat, it also allows you to create a large amount of useful raw materials and resources useful for other things(or just to sell and become rich). One example given for 3 dots is creating a super-alloy that make any weapon or armor it's used in better. All of alchemy's applications should also stack with enchanting, so there's that too.
>university professor
Anon, have you met a university proffessor before? Those dumbasses are mundane mortals for sure. Your NASA scientist or deep lab research might be an EC, but definitely not any academic wingnut.
They're just as metaphysically changed by their awakening to the possibilities of advanced mathmatics as a mystic is by ancient knowledge. They're harder to bind, change, or harm with magic just as any magical splat.

>>95931378
The best I can think of for that is that knowledge somehow changes you spiritually. Because the Science Alchemy pretty blatantly says that they're just using advanced science.

>>95931557
The sidebar on Revised 121 says you can have sorcery replace magick-or not. People just skip the second paragraph. An alchemist, esp considering the Hermetic example, could very well make an awakening potion with the mechanical effect of gaining half their sorcery xp in spheres and arete (up to 3) and no downsides. Unless your ST wants to dick you.

>>95932110
>The sidebar on Revised 121
Which revised book? I checked sorcerer, mage core, the ST handbook, ST companion, etc.

Chronicles of Fagness

>>95931446
You can do supernatural versions of mundane substances so you should be able to at least have some fun with it.

>>95929545
Very nice concept, the Troll would have also been Autumn. After all using your bulk for social inyeraction via kith (manipulation rolls) still leaves strength and intimidate to cajole people.
>>95929772
I am tall but not HUGE yet.
>Inb4 masculine instinct.

Can a marauder give themselves more dots in spheres?

>>95932993
As in, just increase his dots without actually learning?

>>95932848
Thanks. Feels like nobody really talks about Lost anymore, which is a shame because it's probably in my top 3 WoD games. Only other character concept we have so far is Mother Goose, a Beast of the Winter Court, I think she's a Truefriend.

Game might be eons away but I got excited since I hadn't gotten a chance to play Lost in a while.

Any thoughts on how to advance the metaplot forward for an M20 game?

I'm considering getting Riddle of the Sphinx from STV, but idk if it's good enough to drop $20 on it.

What can I do with just one dot of Chimerstry?

>>95933784
Single sense illusions that remain so long as you're close by
>Pretend like the blood on your suit is your own through fake injuries
>Hide the scent of the poison you slipped into someone's drink
>Slap a girl on her ass from across the room, use the ensuing outrage as cover
>Imitate bird calls, make it seem like the local harpy is imitating bird mating calls, elysium laughs as her pet parrot humps her head
>Try to recreate the taste of food on your tongue, going further and further away from what your favorite meal really used to taste like until you're just creating the taste of blood on your tongue when you're not hungry

Ravnos whose vice is fucking married women.

Are there Incarnae of the Shade Realms?
It stands to reason, each Planet has a Celestine presiding over it's Shard Realm (Except for Torog and Vulcan) and an Incarnae associated with it's Aetherial Realm

>>95931557
Nerf? Giving yourself powers of other splats?

Buddy, being a Sorcerer is better than being a mundane human but way,way overestimate it.
If you are at nearly peak of Alchemy after decades of research, you get the ability to get up to Dot 3 abilities of other splats, if you research it, if you get materials related to the splat in question, if you successfully brew it. For a scene. With downsides the stronger the power in question is.

Being a sorcerer is cool when you are surrounded by normies. It sucks when you have to deal with Mages, Vampires and Werewolves. And that's for Master Sorcerers. Most Sorcerers are nowhere near a Master Sorcerer either, they mostly know a bit about a lot of different Paths or worse, spent years or decades managing to learn the bare basics.

Fucking Arcanum, which is essentially the world's leading place for Sorcerer not affiliated with Mages, literally says "However, even the smallest of magical effects may take years of study and hours of application, and the acquisition of such skill is often seen as pointless"
It's even worse for those who have no backing, even of Arcanum.

What’s her Clan?

How would you guys feels about a hunter antagonist being able to temporarily impose banes on your characters?
On one hand it could feel invalidating for the players character generation choices, om the other hand it could be a pretty cool encounter.
I'm thinking the players will be hunted by a rabbinical hunter whose strong faith and use of kabbalah imposes the rules he knows about dybbuks, entries, amalek et al. on his quarry.
He's meant to be a physically weak threat, the issue is that he gradually imposes more and more rules and then uses those to hurt the players.

>>95934497
The players are vampires, the antagonist is a hunter, I should say.

>>95934497
It's fine as long as the banes are reasonable and not tonally dissonant.

At the end of the day the players only need one opening to kill the frail mortal. Unless your players are especially dense I think this'd make for a good encounter.

>>95934209
Kiasyd, Appearance 5.

>>95933902
Ministry/follower of set who runs a local church and fucks the wives of all his parishioners.

>>95934922
Ventrue who can only drink from married women he's fucked
Toreador obsessed with the beauty of women in the throes of infidelity.

>>95933902
>>95934922
>>95934955
Y'know, why would most vampires pursue sex? Don't you need high humanity to mildly enjoy it and spend blood so your dick can get erect?

>>95933130
Lost and Geist are my favorite NWoD splats. My table tried a CtL campaign but it just couldn't recapture the momentum of our previous campaign and quickly sputtered out.

>>95935554
You do. But screwing someone else's wife also has a psychological element. There's elements of dominance, claiming territory and transgression. All elements of the beast.

>>95933114
Yeah, since they can basically manipulate reality completely, can they just have a paradigm where they’re a master mage?

>>95933844
Slapping an ass and making a parrot hump a head seem like they'd need the 3rd dot

>>95935877
>Yeah, since they can basically manipulate reality completely
No, not they can't. It's actually the opposite, marauders are so consumed by their own paradigm that they've lost a lot of their control over their will-working. A marauder doesn't purposefully create a reality bubble like a domain expansion in JJK, It happens without their control and instead controls Them.
No, a marauder can't give themselves more dots in spheres. In fact they have a much harder time learning and raising their spheres than normal mages.

>>95933902
>>95934922
>>95934955
>>95935690
You're the reason why people constantly screech about NTR in random threads. For the love of god, can you stop bringing your fetish into everything? The both of you need to cool it.

>>95935554
Low/no humanity vampires fuck all the time. See: the Sabbat. Only high humanity can bone is a silly meme.

>>95935877
they can't manipulate reality however they want consciously without the required spheres. the reality-altering affect of the marauder is completely subconscious and just makes the world adhere to their paradigm completely

Space is real when I run mage, the idea that it doesn't exist is just moronic hogwash created by the traditions because they are too stupid too realize they need spaceships and just assume it isn't real because they can't leave the umbra without dying

>>95936837
>assuming anything is real when playing mage

>>95936910
there is nothing more mage though than arbitrarily deciding upon how reality works and then forcing this view on everyone

Drawfag here, working on this currently. A Ferectoi and her Fomori bodyguard/Pentex minder, and her Nephandi "uncle". And her pet, a dual-headed centipede, gifted to her by a Scorpion-Eater Kuei-Jin as a birthday present(and ploy to get in the good graces of Pentex).
This is a redesign of something I made a ways back. Improving it and the composition.

>>95934497
Banes and merits are supposed to be acquirable/loseable dynamically during the Chronicle, so as long as the method is thematic (our ST had us gain living shadows during an Umbra trip involving Obtenebration), it should be fine.

>>95936364
Nah, you just need to make the woman feel like her ass has been slapped, the illusion doesn't need to move, just trick her sense of touch.
The illusion with the bird is making the mating call sounds, the bird would be real in that scenario.

>>95934497
isn't this basically how Heroes work in Beast? should be fine

>>95937034
Better art than the modern books. Keep on keeping on, Anon.

>>95938021
Thanks man! I'd love to work on the official materials someday, if only so players could have materials that aren't photobashed nonsense.

>>95936394
one of the biggest vampire movies of the decade is literally about a cainite that is extremly desperate to fuck some poor guy's wife

What's the difference between the versions of the gangrel weakness?

>>95938462

>>95938625
NTR is gay because you're getting off to the presence of another man

>>95938685
Not true, I prefer it when it's the woman who's forced to watch as her man is stolen from her.

>>95938721
based

What is the best edition of mage (MtA) to start with.

>>95939511
1e

>>95939511
>mage (MtA)
kek

>>95939511
Revised.

>>95939511
I don't play Mage but I feel like most people would say Revised

>>95939822
The avatar storm was canceraids though

>>95939848
You CAN ignore and exclude the Avatar Storm. You always could.

>>95939511
Wait for the upcoming M5.

>>95939511
Either 1e or Revised.
Personally, I like Revised with a few house rules regarding the whole Avatar Storm thing.

>>95939878
what's wrong with it?

>>95940501
They tried to kill all the cool parts of the mage setting. The Avatar storm basically destroyed 99% of the cool alternate dimensions and fantasy realms in mage cosmology.
Imagine if you had a harry potter game where the writers got pissed off everyone was spending all their time in the wizarding world instead of dying in their boring WW2 fanfic earth, so they destroyed hogwarts and all the parallel wizard areas.

>>95940501
Basically makes crossing into the Umbra (the spirit world, if you don't know the lore) impossible because getting in and out has a very good chance of killing your character.
>roll arete + paradox at difficulty 6, each success deals 1 aggravated damage to the character crossing into the Umbra
For reference, to be able to do that at all you need Spirit 3 i. e. you need at least arete 3, so that's a minimum of 3 dice rolled each time you cross the Gauntlet. And it tends to be more unless you managed to stick with coincidental magic up until that point and didn't botch a single roll. Which basically means no visiting the other realms or creating your own, effectively making the later levels of the Spirit sphere useless

>>95940739
On top of that, spending too long in the spirit world suddenly started turning you into a spirit permanently.
Aslo your lost all your awakened magic, even though awakened spirits were a well established thing up to that point, because Fuck You for wanting to have fun in the writer's super-serious game for character studies only.

>>95939878
But if I make any changes to the metaplot, then the imaginary lore police will jump through the screen and start beating the shit out of me with their lore truncheons!

>>95941256
>The strongest Paradox Spirit: the Lore Police

>>95940710
>>95940739
>>95940759
Sounds like the kind of anti-fun wankery Dawkins likes, where the writer decides they don't like how you read something that made you take the setting in a weird direction, so they break it down to basics-only and try to take it out of your hands. Obviously WoD has only briefly flashed in and out of life since, but I appreciate Chronicles acting as a containment zone for that kind of adherence to archetypical urban fantasy. Anyone who gets into WoD likes at least a little bit of the gonzo.

>>95941269
I mean, you see some of that in the enforced street level design of the fifth edition, especially in W5. It "solved" so many of Werewolf the Apocalypse's issues that the entire setting was rendered sterile and lifeless.

>>95932227
Sorcerer revised, ch 6. storytelling, on page 121, bottom left "Excuses, Excuses" sidebar, second from last paragraph.

>>95939882
Only if you want to hurt yourself to see if you still feel.

>>95939822
I might get flamed for this but Revised was the V5 of mage

>>95941334
>It "solved" so many of Werewolf the Apocalypse's issues.

I've always said that V5's biggest problem is that it takes legitimate issues with Vampire the Masquerade, and creates a solution for it that is worse than the problem itself.

Why I think W5 was even more negatively received than V5, which does have some defenders as well as a decent chunk of people who will defend one or two of the changes, though there is no consensus on which changes were good or godawful, see hunger dice is that it tried to do the same thing, only the problem is most of the things it viewed as an issue are in fact, the reason extant WtA fans like it. So even if they made a perfectly serviceable werewolf game, which I'm not sure they did, they made a very bad Werewolf the Apocalypse edition.

>>95941256
I cannot find it but there's a paragraph out there from a WoD book that basically says "metaplot is dumb and gay, your lore trumps ours. Have fun."

>>95941670
This one? While it's technically about domains in VtM I think the sentence
>"Your chronicle is implicitly yours, to do with as you wish, and that's all there is to it."
applies to pretty much everything else. There's official material, use it if you want because you like it or it's easier. Modify it if you want, and if you can't find anything workable, throw it out. It won't hurt their feelings.

>>95941670
Almost every book has the golden rule 'feel free to change anything you read here to your liking'.

Hey, /WoDg/

My pack (W:tA) just rescued what we are calling a Peng Bird, kin to Firebird and some other potent spirits from Falcon's Brood. As reward, it offered us its blessing and burden, which -may- have also granted us the ability to breathe underwater. We aren't clear on that part just yet. But if we do have that power, then my PC is going to need to do some deep diving in the Arctic Ocean, because his father (and a stolen ICBM submarine, and the Spiral who stole it) died out there.

So, what might a pack of young Garou find when they intrude upon the icy depths? Canon things from any game line, or just your own suggestions.

God, it was great to have an in-person session again. I love this group so much.

>>95941626
It is not perfectly serviceable as a werewolf game, a Crinos burns out in a scene and cannot sustain a nightly rampage. This also frequently results in losing the wolf, so it even causes the character to become drastically less dangerous to be around until the next night.

So, if you wanted a werewolf to go on a killing spree naked of all pretense and in their "truest" form... you have one scene. About 20 minutes. No travel across the local landscape in search of victims, no displays of cunning, and not even an amusing moment where you suddenly interrupt someone rifling through medical files to neatly snatch what they were holding before smacking them around and cutting them with your claws.

>>95941883
You can bet there will be Rokea, but more than that bust open Blood Dimmed Tides and gander at all the retarded mer-folk you're going to find.

>>95942152
That's just one example of how they went too far in fixing a "problem" with old WtA.
They didn't like how crinos was a permanent form for some werewolves who only shifted out of it when they were had no other choice, so they attached a crippling cost to maintaining the form so that no werewolf can remain in crinos without frenzying or without sacrificing all of their willpower for a few rounds in that form.
They solved the Umbra in a very similar way, and a whole bunch of other stuff that they considered too prevalent was cut without anything to fill the hole that was made. Breeds, cut. Kinfolk, cut. Cultural connections, cut. Pentex subsidiaries, cut. Fera, cut. Garou Nation, cut.
The result was a tattered skeleton of a game that was prohibitive to play with most of the setting missing, which ironically forced groups to fill the holes with the very same lore that had been cut out of the setting.

>>95938462
The biggest and most well known vampire movie this century is about a vampire marrying a girl while the lupine desperately wants to groom their daughter

What Discipline are Dracula's roommates using here to travel via moonlight?

>>95942590
could be the thaum teleport part, could also be obfuscate 1 failing when you are illuminated by someone who is actively looking for someone or him just stopping the ability

>>95924862 (OP)
Putting together a playlist of Classic VTM club music. What do anons reccommend that isn't Bauhaus and Type O negative (They go without saying)?

>>95943045
how about time period Nine Inch Nails songs

>>95942590
Old style koldunism used spirits instead of a pact with kupala(they could literally use spirit rites and pseudo-gifts), so Dracula might be stealing garou Moonbridges using a Koldunic rite.

>>95943045
Firestarter
https://youtu.be/wmin5WkOuPw?si=xsEGIXvsHygnh6wQ

I will use it in my game, hopefully my group doesnt lurk here.

>>95943045
can't go wrong with Clubbed to Death. About as mid 2000's underground dance club as it gets

>>95943045
Lazy, bit broad but kept in check answer:
Kidneythieves (check Taxicab Messiah), Atari Teenage Riot, Joy Division, Siouxsie & The Banshees, Tricky's thirst three albums always have a special place for me (check Christiansands), some of Nine Inch Nails's stuff can work pretty well, similarly Primal Scream is hit or miss, but when it hits it's very good I think (check Kill All Hippies or Exterminator I guess)... Massive Attack (especially Mezzanine, there's a reason they plagiarized Angel for Bloodlines' title), Cabaret Voltaire, DJ Baku, Emika's self titled album...

>>95924862 (OP)
Any concept any of you want to do?
I want to do picrel

She's Kuin Hachisuka from My Hero Academia: Vigilantes. Basically she's a girl who got possessed by a queen bee with a quirk who lives inside her head by tunneling through her left eyeball. The queen can produce drones with syringues and different chemical compounds (such as to make some carry drugs, or have others explode). The character is a mix of the queen bee and the girl's original personality.

I was picturing playing her as a changeling with the chimerical companion background. The "Queen" could have dreamform as a rede if it allows to be inside someone, so it could nest inside my character. There's possession too be it's too extremely temporary to my taste.

I was thinking that the worker drones could look like the apostle fairies from Berserk, changing to their uglier forms when ready to fight.

I'm playing a brawny, brutish Tremere. Someone who is intelligent but far more comfortable with action than study. He's dedicated to founding a new path of Blood Sorcery focused on physicality. His "studies" are devoted to understanding and emulating the power of physical Disciplines i.e. (Fortitude) and even more esoteric abilities like Vicissitude.

Right now, our coterie is focused on establishing a presence in Anne Arundel County in the mid-1970s. We're working to reestablish a Tremere Chantry in the area. The Sabbat previously held the region — it was to serve as a staging ground for a major invasion of Washington, D.C. But now, for reasons unknown, they’ve abruptly abandoned the area.

Our objectives are to:
>Discover how the Sabbat managed to take the city from the Camarilla in the first place.
>Investigate the fate of the previous Tremere Chantry and why it fell.
>Uncover the reason the Sabbat suddenly left, and whether it poses a further threat.

>>95943045
>ISOLATED

>>95943476
>Any concept any of you want to do?
I have this idea for a Lasombra Dancer but I don't think it would work at all in an actual game.

>>95943822
We are here of course we are isolated.

>>95941626
>I think W5 was even more negatively received than V5
W5 is just blander version of Apocalypse without most of the weird shit that kept people interested.

>>95939511
If you want to spend some cash and want the best bang for your buck, M20 core. It basically has everything in it in a huge book.
If you are pirating or don't care about money, 2nd Edition or Revised books.

>>95941334
God W5 is full of stupid and retarded things. They turned Garou actually braindead, their famous heroes are stupid at the first glance, simply doesn't work when you thing about it, the Umbra is gutted, Crinos is gutted, Pentex has no flavor anymore, fighting the Wyrm is secondary to doing activism and the edition hates you for being a Werewolf

>>95943813
What would a physical thauma path focus on? Would be most similar to a specific physical discipline or be its own thing?

What’s your idea of the world population?
If set in the 1990s I imagine the population is
>8.6 billion mortals
>460,000 shifters and kinfolk, ~300,000 alone are Garou, of these shifter breeds only 1 in 20 are full blooded werebreeds
>200,000 changelings, the majority unaware of their own nature
>72,000 vampires (that have existed for more than a decade, plenty of newblood and shovelheads cycles in and out but this is the “static” number of bloodsuckers, about 10000 are elders and about 3000 of those are true elders pulling strings
>12,000 mages of all types and calibers and factions
>60,000 enlightened citizens
>4444 Demons
>666 Earthbound
>321 Mummies

So less than a million supernaturals total. These numbers are largely arbitrary and supernaturals tend to congregate to cities for various reasons, demons for faith, mages for consensus, vampires for blood, changelings for dreams, so major cities might have a severe over-representation of entities while a rural town would be completely devoid of supernaturals save when some shifter nomads wander by. That only includes playable characters though, other lesser (or greater) supernatural “monsters” might congregate too and might even be more numerous than humanity on the whole, but that’s what the void engineers have space lasers and anti portal Antarctic teams for

>>95944282
World population in the 1990s was like 6 billies. Unless you're saying WoD is an overpopulated shithole, which tracks.

>>95944282
i usually disgard the numbers given, and only keep the ratio numbers they have given like 25 vampires for a 1 mage during peace time in mind, but also only roughly because they can just be different in our city
the only one where i actually keep any numbers in mind are mummies because the books make it a important point that they are in the low three digits and vastly understaffed even in mtr

>>95944308
I am yes. It makes sense if the world is similar to Russia during its industrial revolution prior to ww1 where cities are super dangerous overcrowded shitholes but also the only escape the average persons have from the abject poverty of being rural unless you’re one of the handful of landed elites. The technocracy is going a long way to make cities better especially in the West but I’m definitely leaning into the whole “100,000 people go missing each year in the US” thingy as a “they’re not found ever” thing not a 80% of them were reported missing 3 hours before they stumbled home drunk thing like in real life. Mixture of technocratic and Church influence to keep people popping out large families even into the 90s in the western world.

>>95944174
At least this one isn't trans.

>>95944282
honestly 15000 garou sound like way too much as we seen places of major force projection for the garou nation in russia and the amazon and they number barely in the hundreds there even if you count the black spiral dancers to their numbers

fera are fucked

>>95925710
The lost animal man. You hate being in city's but fuck it its where most of the good prey lives so you got to deal with it as best you can while hiding as a stray dog or crow in the city so you can hunt for fresh blood.

>>95944174
>using that outdated, conventional, archaic artstyle
Listen. That art style is from long before the target audience for these books was even born. They need to recall all of these books and then rerelease them with art done in the corporate memphis style, which is far more contemporary.
And now, if you'll excuse me, I need to go pick up a lot of broken glass.

>>95944500
Yeah the lore doesn’t make sense to me, frankly. That few wolves just wouldn’t have an impact, even the numbers I give makes them all but irrelevant as a faction barely holding on given what they can reasonably do and the attrition they constantly suffer. If there were less than 5000 like the books sort of imply they’d be functionally wiped out in a decade

>>95944282
>more Garou than Vampires
my brother in Caine what are you smoking

>>95944900
15,000 Garou, 285,000 Garou kinfolk ranging from “has werewolf blood technically” to “can enter the umbra almost as easily as a Garou shaman” with most being functionally regular mortals due to how diluted and inbred most Clans are in Modern

>>95943476
i was thinking about featuring a similair character as a antagonist in a mage game or coc game, pic related is clementine from the game morimens who is based on the Shaggai a really obscure lovecraft mythos monster. in the lore She was terminally ill as a child and was saved by her father using a dark ritual after victorian era medicine failed them. However, the being that exists now is no longer just Clementine it's a fusion of her and an interdimensional insect that now uses mind magic disguised as therapy to manipulate people and opening them up to possession from her kind while claiming that it's her patients "true selves".
funny thing however is that she is actually a really good psychiatrist when she cares to be and is pretty much the reason why the evil scientist faction hasn't imploded yet from all the SAN damage they do to themselves
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vq6P8DMDfZQ
Her drones come in three stages. the first stage can still pass as human, with only the head taking on an insectoid appearance during combat.
the second stage fully sheds its human form revealing a monstrous, insect-like body. the third stage is a grotesque a writhing mass of flesh and exoskeleton bits made from multiple merged drones.
drones can switch between stages in combat

>>95944180
It's still open ATM. I'm thinking about starting by improving my blood buff and then going forward with emulating disciplines and the end game is a war form. But more in the vein of Tenser's Transformation than Zulo.

>>95944992
how about if you are making your own path, a blood sorcery version of the enchanting path?

>>95945017
Permanently altering myself, for example?

>>95945085
the sorcery path i was talking about was more about enchanting items, a blood sorcery version would probably be temporary enchantments instead to balance the lower cost of blood

enchanting yourself alchemy style is pretty much already covered with the blood buff, although a path that buffs that could be really interesting, but you would have to make that up completely from scratch

>>95945017
Converting sorcery path for vampires was covered in "Time of Thin Blood". Only thinbloods are capable of it and only in the form of a new discipline that functions the same way using their ability as inceptors.
A tremere blood-daddy can learn a thin-blood's incepted path sorcery as out-of-clan disiplines though.

>>95945226
tremere could make new sorcery paths from the begining, the first sorcerer book had embraced sorcerers being able to use some of thier paths as new thaum paths if they had no counterpart and tome of secret also says that you can convert blood sorcery to sorcery and vice versa even mentioning mortal kolduns

>>95945261
>tome of secret also says that you can convert blood sorcery to sorcery and vice versa
No. It says humans can recreate thaum/blood sorcery using non-vampiric blood and/or sacrifices, it makes a very clear distinction between blood sorcery and normal hedge magic. It doesn't allow converting regular sorcery in thaum or vice versa, only mortal blood sorcery into thaum because vamps Can't learn the mortal equivalent directly.

>>95944174
That's such a nothing burger of a lore sheet despite the concept.

>>95943476
A vampire that is a full on humanity cultist. They truly believe Cain was wrong to forsake the love and forgiveness of god for killing his brother. To the point his moto for his humanity cult is "Am i my brothers keeper? YES I AM!!!".

He is so faithful to the ideas and ideals of humanity and the protection of humans from supernatural evil that he is trying to form his own sect out of his humanity cult to drive vampires away from preying on humanity and giving up on there own humanity. And instead just feeding on animal blood and the blood of the other supernatural beings of the world that are a threat to humans. Other than other vampire of course. After all soul eating will doom you in the end and destroy you from the inside out far more surely than even the sun will kill you.

He also has no idea what Golconda is and if he ever hears of it he will think it is a evil scam to get good vampires to destroy themselves with a get fixed quick scam.

>>95944900
I think he is only counting vampires over a 100 years undead as real vampires while all the young bloods keep dying to fast from being stupid or weak to count for anything but as meat shields and fall guys for there elders. So why bother even counting them?

When running a game online, do you guys bother to make maps for combat encounters or do you stick to theatre of the mind?

>>95944870
That's the whole point though. The game is called "Apocalypse", the Garou aren't making a different and are going to be wiped out in less than a decade.

>>95945415
You just described the Children of Osiris anon...

>>95945817
And as much as I like parts of WtA I don't like most of it and it's easily the second worst written oWoD splat besides Mummy. It's just a bit too retarded and the numbers just don't work. Even meta-narratively it is just this sort of "why bother" near comedy of a plot. Realistically, you should just never ever come across a wolf as a supernatural. You'd pretty much have to be a technocrat in the amazon jungle or a mage actively seeking out a Cairne, and that's just. Lame. There'd be no real risk of entering Wolf territory otherwise, and it's not like bumping up the number x3 makes this any less of an Apocalypse for the guys, it just leaves more opportunity to actually stumble into one. 15,000 wolves, 5,000 wolves, it's still completely joever for them.

>>95946048
Anon I'm also not the biggest fan of WtA. However, do you really want to start another thread-long argument with the werewolf players?

The new NMD changeling book is coming tomorrow
https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/changeling-the-lost-book-of-courts-preview-q-a-coming-june-25.929037/

>>95946074
No, no, of course not. I'm just pointing out that the Wolves are fundamentally flawed, that's all. We can all agree on that right?

>>95945990
I do not know much about these vamps other than that they work for the mummies and do jack all in the plot. And that they may all be dead at this point in time as well.

But my guys stick is that he may be a old vampire at 300 or so years old but he has only recently received his personal revelations about vampire humanity and has just now started up his cult in the hopes of saving the souls of his people and protecting the innocent from evil. He is basically a born again Cristian who after lifetimes of unliving as nothing more than a depressed loser trying to hold on to the bare flickers of his soul and not give in to ether his beast or the evils that surround him that all other vampires seem to just try to ignore as best they can. He found himself on the edge of the abyss and rather than give in one last time went full on fighting to the last of the dying of the light. Like he is a near feral madman with how he try's to restore and preserve his humanity as well as others from the ravages of the beast.

His new cult of humanity is all about gathering together other vampires in mass that want to save there humanity no matter there clan or former sect so they can all protect eachother from threats, save themselves from the plots of the elders, force conversions of other vampires to there cult or destroy them if they will not stop hunting and killing humans, and destroying outright every other supernatural force they think is preying on humanity in any way. This humanity cult is vary new but it is also vary fanatic about how it thinks vampires should be living. And vary proactive about drinking the blood of those that it hates. Other than other vampire of course what with all the problems that brings you.

>>95946313
You've once again described the children of osiris.

>>95946190
Why are there not far far more Kinfolk in the world? All you have to do to make one is have one of the changing breeds fuck a random human or animal of there breed and knock them up. Then you get a Kinfolk. Why have none of the changing breeds ever just set up a breeding program where some of them just wonder around the world knocking up as many people as they can to make as many Kinfolk as they can so as to spread the blood around?

Would the Bone Gnawers, Silent Striders, Or the Get of Fenris really have that much of a problem setting up such a breeding program to get more Kinfolk and saving Gia from the Wyrm in such a way. I thought they were the kind of tribes that were more pragmatic about that kind of thing?

>>95946190
Ah, I see you are baiting them.

As for the rarity of werewolves causing little risk to gallivanting around the woods (at least from werewolves), I'll lay the blame for that one at the feet of whichever developer decided quantum werewolves was a good answer to the question of "what if my players want to leave the big city?" in VtM. It's stuck around as a meme unfortunately and gives many new players this notion that if you go anywhere with more greenery than the suburbs as a vampire you will immediately get jumped by an entire pack of werewolves.

Not only is it a lazy, handwavy answer to a fringe problem, it's also somewhat off the mark in my estimation. Many good vampire stories take place in small towns, they could've made a very good supplement book about rural vampirism instead of sticking to a lazy answer to a question that didn't need answering.

>>95946393
>Why are there not far far more Kinfolk in the world? All you have to do to make one is have one of the changing breeds fuck a random human or animal of there breed and knock them up. Then you get a Kinfolk. Why have none of the changing breeds ever just set up a breeding program where some of them just wonder around the world knocking up as many people as they can to make as many Kinfolk as they can so as to spread the blood around?
Autism

Would the Bone Gnawers, Silent Striders, Or the Get of Fenris really have that much of a problem setting up such a breeding program to get more Kinfolk and saving Gia from the Wyrm in such a way?
Yes. They have terminal autism. Because if they didn't have some decorum that would just cause the 1427th Garou civil war when that gets found out what they're doing.

>>95946375
From what little i know about the children of osiris are they not just a tiny group of vary old vampires that hide out in the deserts of Egypt while trying to hide from the followers of Set as they fear the Settits will kill them all. So like these children of osiris may talk a big game but they are nothing but cowards hiding in the sands from there betters.

The new cult of humanity i am trying to describe is near feral from there beasts fighting back as hard as it can from these vampires humanity surging out of control. Fanatics that think they now know the will of god and that they are supposed to be the silent protectors of mankind. And near suicidal in there proactive frenzy to there works of saving humanity in all its forms in that they do not care at all about there immortality as vampires as the fight for there souls and the souls of others is the only thing that matters to them now. To the point they will attack others with burning torches and flame weapons in hand even as it drives them crazy to do so. Sometimes they even play around with fire or mess with sunlight in the hopes of breaking the will of there beasts before there beasts break there wills. The most fanatic of this cult are seen as truly crazy by the rest of vampire society for the shit they pull to try to control there beasts and protect there humanity.

I will take any corrections you can give me to my cult if none of what i said about them is even possible in vampire lore.

>>95946440
>Autism
I though paranoid schizophrenia and retardation were the opposite of autism? I'd say woofs are the latter, they jump at shadows thinking it's the wyrm All The Damned Time! They kill each other thinking they're working for the wyrm when "smell wyrm taint" is a common low-level gift.
The woofs need to be put on leashes and given the domestication treatment for their own good.

>>95946504
>are they not just a tiny group of vary old vampires that hide out in the deserts of Egypt while trying to hide from the followers of Set as they fear the Settits will kill them all
No actually.
They're a cult of vampires trying to spread an alternative to golconda based on their clan discipline Bardo.
They're essentially Anti-settites that can convert other vampires into more Children of Osiris in a similar way to the Baali.
Bardo itself gives a bunch of abilities related to what you're trying to do as well, from maintaining/gaining humanity easily, to getting more blood from animals, to destroying magic and even establishing temples that give them a power boost. It's basically Designed for creating religious cults centered around the path of humanity.

>>95946440
Are the Silver Fangs such jealous and hateful bastards that they would really pull there authority over the other wolves to stop them from breeding more Kinfolk just because they are all so inbred at this point they may all be impotent at this point and destined to die out for being such sister fucking morons?

Are they truly that petty as leaders?

>>95946530
Why do we never hear more about these guys? This sounds cool as hell. Where can i read up more about them and are there any stories about them i can read?

>>95946557
They were created for Hunters Hunted, the original old ass supplement and very rarely referenced afterwards. They got soft-retconned by claims the Setites wiped them all out.

>>95944282
I believe there's atleast 130,000 people with a Numina, most of them are the lower levels of their path, aka there's a lot of people with one or two dots of true faith, or know the first level of a sorcery path like alchemy and can make a good potion for the common cold. And maybe only 13,000 who have it to a level upon which it's notable 3+ dots.

>>95946541
>Are the Silver Fangs such jealous and hateful bastards that they would really pull there authority over the other wolves to stop them from breeding more Kinfolk just because they are all so inbred at this point they may all be impotent at this point and destined to die out for being such sister fucking morons?
Yeah. They're kind of retarded. It's not even entirely about the Hapsburging but really just the fact that they're on top because they hit anything that gets too close to second place, so if any other tribes started outbreeding them they would 100% go to war to get them to knock that shit off because they'd rather die king fuck of shit mountain than give up power.

>>95946505
Well i just had a stupid idea about a alternate history that most likely nobody will like but i think is cool.

So as we know Rome back in the day was ruled by the Ventru and other vampire clans that worked with them. And when Rome expanded into the English isles the vampires and the Roman legion beat the shit out of the White Howlers werewolf tribe till they fucked up and were corrupted by the black spiral and turned into the Black Spiral Dancers right?

Well what if instead of that happening the vampire clans of Rome just full on beat the White Howlers conquered them and made them all slaves of Rome and in secret the slaves of the clans of Rome. Like somehow the vampires and legions of Rome beat the black spiral and sealed it saving the White Howlers souls from the Wyrm. While at the same time they blood bonded, dominated, demented, animalized, And whatever else the old and powerful vampires of Rome could do to them to break there wills and make the White Howlers there slaves.

So now instead of being black spiral dancers these Werewolves are now the War Dogs clan that were broken in and tamed by the vampire clans of Rome. And even after Rome fell and the War Dogs were freed from Rome they have still been changed irreversibly by what the vampire had done to them. So now they are vary vary different in many ways to any other werewolf clan.

Do you guys want to pitch in and give ideas about how the War Dogs clan are different from the Black Spiral Dancers and there White Howler ancestors?

I am thinking that not only were the first slaves of the White Howlers all nothing more than mind broken thrall that the vampire clans of Rome experimented on to see how werewolves worked and how to breed more of them. But also that they bred them with as many of the other slaves of Rome as they could and even some of the citizens of Rome so as to make tons and tons of werewolf kinfolk so that they could have even more werewolves and Kinfolk to experiment on.

This does lead to a question I was never sure about. I thought the garou struggle to get higher numbers because they didn't feel the same level of attraction that they do to other Garou?

>>95946393
Technically, that already happens. There are thousands of normal humans in WoD who are kinfolk but have no idea about their heritage. Sometimes 2 of those people marry and fuck and their kids have a small chance of being garou, which is the reason why "teenage boy murders their schoolmates after having his first change while being bullied" is a thing.
As for why the woofs don't breed with more normal humans, there are a couple of problems:

a) garou generate an aura of fear that scares non-kinfolk unless their Rage is bellow the person's willpower (normal humans usually have 2-4 will, for reference). That makes having relationships with non-kinfolk a big challenge to have, especially if the woof in question is an ahroun. Theoretically, they could just fuck and leave, but that's not reliable for keeping track and ensuring the kids will grow into healthy adults to make more woofs, especially in countries where abortion is legal.
b) hooking up with humans carries a risk of breaching the Veil (the woofs' version of the vamps' masquerade) in case they try to learn further about their "mysterious lover", which carries the risk of Pentex or the Technocracy finding out and sending a hit team to cleanse the area of woofs. Inducting said humans in garou society is very difficult because of the aforementioned fear aura and also because of the risk of suffering from delirium should they see their spouse in crinos form. Only the Children of Gaia have a rite to overcome that by turning someone into kinfolk, but the ritual is a level 5, takes a lot of time and the person receiving it has to be a turbo-hippie for it to work
c) Almost all the tribes except the Bone Gnawers and Glass Walkers (the Silver Fangs being merely the worst offenders) want to conserve purity of blood among themselves for the off chance of producing a reincarnation of some of their ancient heroes; an idea reinforced because the spirits they deal with also respect said blood purity

>>95946757
So the first generation of werewolves born of the slave Kinfolk of Rome would be the new War Dogs Tribe of werewolves after the last of the White Howlers died out from old age or abuse by there vampire masters. And they would call themselves such because at that point they would have no connection or continuity of any kind with there White Howler grand parents as they were all nothing but mind wiped and controlled slave puppets at this point. So no learning from there elders at this point for them and they now had to start from scratch about what it means to be a werewolf without anyone to show them the way. So that was a huge problem for them.

So i think the War Dogs should be defined by there former slavery to the vampire and Rome as well as by the culture of Rome in its many forms and the ashes they had to rise from by themselves after Rome fell and they gained there freedom and had to build themselves back up from nothing after they gained there freedom. As well as the fact that the rest of the werewolf tribes still hate and fear them as much as they did the Black Spiral Dancers of canon as they think they are just as corrupted by the Wyrm as the Black Spiral Dancers were because they were enslaved and tamed for so long by the vampires. And because they gave the vampires so many of the secrets of the werewolves from how long they were experimented on and exploited by the vampires.

If you guys want to put your own spins on this then bring it on and show us all everything you can think of. I want to reed everything you guys have about were the War Dogs should be taken after this. Should they be corrupted by the Wyrm like the other werewolf tribes say they are or not? Because of the vampires slave breeding programs should the War dogs be more Dog than Wolves at this point to the point they can even breed with Dogs to make dog Kinfolk? Should they be the weakest spiritually and magically of all the werewolf tribes but also the most numerous?

>>95939882
Can't wait to see how they turn one of the most famously complex and nuanced magic systems into streamlined garbage. God, I hate Paradox.

>>95944174
>Turning WtA into WTF
Thanks, Paradox.

>>95946915
The War Dogs are so changed by there time as slaves to the vampires that not only are they vary dog like now even when they transform into full warform they just like every other changing breed do not induce delirium in humans as they no longer look enough like a werewolf for it to count and trigger the effect. This lets the War Dogs far more easily deal with and coexist with humanity. But they now must be far more careful about exposing themselves to humanity as they no longer have the delirium to protect them from there fuck ups.

Because of how much there vampire masters affected and fucked them up most of the War Dogs tribe rites deal with working with, effecting, manipulating, and controlling humans in somewhat the same way the vampires themselves do. Just with spirit magic and such not vampire mind powers. So the War Dogs are the best of the werewolf tribes at gaining political power among the humans and using it to there advantage. They are also probably the best tribe at dealing with mages and other magic users in none combat situations as there rites and gifts will effect them just as well as a normal human. So this tribe is ether utterly hated by the mages and other magic users for all the times they mind whammy them with spiritual charm spells or they absolutely love them and want to work with them and protect the War Dogs as best they can depending on how we make the rites and gifts of the tribe work and how aggressive or subtle there charms are.

The War Dogs have a much harder time gaining and using rage because of all of the experiments and taming the vampires put them thru. But at the same time they also have a much easier time dealing with there rage as well Because of how hard it is to build up inside them and how easy it is for them to lose it from just feeling other positive emotions. This does make them less able warriors in the end so it is more of a flaw than a blessing when you need your rage the most in a fight.

>>95946618
How do the Silver Fangs even get away with doing something like this to the other tribes? Would the Shadow Lords not lead all of the other tribes in rebellion to kill all of the Silver Fangs if they tried to control whether the other tribes can even have children or not if the Silver Fangs feel outnumbered our not? How do to Silver Fangs have so much control over the other tribes in the first place if they are so tyrannical and murderous all the time?

>>95946968
>>95946974
We live in the one timeline where CCP sitting on the IP and letting it rot would have been preferable. WTF is this cultural dark age?

>>95947116
Mostly because
>other tribes would side with the Silver Fangs probably including the Shadow Lords
>not all of your tribe would agree with you
>even if your tribe does agree with you it still takes basically two decades for a Garou to come of age so you'd have to get past the nihilism and why bother aspect of your tribe too
>now apply this over an entire Clan
>Pentex is definitely going to get involved and try to render you infertile via microplastics and sunglasses that give you prostate cancer
>banging humans isn't hard but also just comes with its own risks
>Werewolf the Apocalypse is a comically bleak setting don't overthink it the writers were too busy including their piss fetish to even qualify as underthinking it frankly

>>95946757
>>95946915
>>95947083
How about calling them Blood Hounds? It’ll be a not so subtle nod to their vampiric ties,

>>95947237
That is a vary cool idea. Lets go with that. Really drive the fangs home with how fucked over they now are because of what the vampires and Rome did to them.

>>95946393
Because the actual answer is there are far more kinfolk. At the very least, there are nine to every one Garou. This retard's personal disdain of the game isn't the actual setting.

>>95947266
Why is it that Kinfolk are as weak and near useless as they are? I mean other than the shapeshifting which makes the changing breeds what they are why do the Kinfolk not have much the same access to the same spirit powers and gift as the changing breeds? If not just human or pure animal aspected versions of the gifts or rites the changing breeds can do? I think i heard that Kinfolk can only use like 2 or 3 gifts given to them by the spirits and one of them is a healing spell right? Why is it if a Kinfolk puts in all the same work to earn the same reward from the same spirits they worship as the werewolves they can not do so?

Its not like they would ever be stronger than the weres in the first place or the end. As the changing breeds will always have the power of there warforms and other shapeshifting's.

>>95946757
now you got my autism going about "what if it wasnt the white howlers but a different tribe that fell to the wyrm?" Just one off the top of my head:
>Bone Gnawers = Fleshpickers, corrupted by a genetic disease that latched onto the Bone Gnawers and spread like wildfire due to their lax breeding standards, mostly associated with The Eater-of-Souls. New totem is Botfly, whose aspect is Survival. Her gifts are exactly what you'd think they are.

>>95947348
I think i heard somewhere that in the apocalypse end times at least one of the tribes was destined to fall to corruption of some kind and the book explains how each tribe could fall in the end. Is that what you are looking for?

>>95947358
Nah, just more alternate history speculating. In this timeline the White Howlers would remain uncorrupted but one other tribe would fill the role of the BSD.

I'm interested in doing an HTR V5 (I know, I know) cryptid hunting campaign. I am planning onintegrating stuff from the broader WoD setting (possible technocracy involvement, Fae fucking with them, undercover supernatural PCs using them for their ends etc.) but the main focus is on a gang of strictly mortal hicks fighting cryptids they are hardly equipped to go after and getting into increasingly absurd situations far over their head (The show Mountain Monsters is the main inspiration here).

My questio is whether there there any good resources, official or otherwise, for cryptids in V5? Frankly I would be fine even looking at V20 or older examples for reference and adapting them

>>95947341
>why do the Kinfolk not have much the same access to the same spirit powers and gift as the changing breeds?
They weren't part of the original spirit pact.
So "Officially", They can't lead rites or learn gifts above level 1.
This is also a lie.
The reality is that From a purely spiritual/biological capacity, kinfolk Can learn gifts to level 3(fera can also theoretically learn out-of-breed gift for the same reason), but all spirits refuse to teach them gifts above level 1 because kinfolk aren't allowed to hold Rank among fera and spirits. It's only level 4-5 gifts that rely too much on fera biology/spirituality for kinfolk to be incapable of learning them.
Kinfolk are also fully capable of learning and using Rites, but the spirits refuse to power those rites normally. Kinfolk can absolutely get around this if they have a special pact with the incarnae/celestial/supernal needed for the rite(which is why kinfolk can do the Rite of Sacred Rebirth, the wyrm loves giving potential skindancers a reason to kill werewolves).

>>95947392
Do you think the reason the spirits kick the Kinfolk in the dick so much by not letting them achieve there full potential with gifts and rites is that the spirits are getting back at the humans for all the times the mages go into the umbra and pick on them or outright beat the shit out of them for more power?

>>95947413
No. The fera are also getting kicked in the dick by having their strongest gifts gated behind Rank despite being fully capable of learning any gift of any level.
The real reason spirits do this is because they're retarded. They're genuinely psychologically incapable of Conceiving in acting any other way. They're only capable of understanding the world around them through their convoluted social politics. Like teenage girls, actual self awareness and critical thinking are far beyond them.

>>95946757
>Well what if instead of that happening the vampire clans of Rome just full on beat the White Howlers
Literally wouldn't be possible. The White Howlers fell because the Wyrm corrupted 99% of their kin and spiritually defiled their land and ate it from within, both literally and figuratively.
If it weren't for that, the White Howlers wouldn't have fallen. They were effectively THE strongest Tribe of Garou to ever exist, and were the most fearsome and excellent warriors among them, and their caerns were pretty much inaccessible by Rome WITHOUT the aid of the fomori and the bane agents of the Wyrm.

>>95947363
I mean if we are going full alternate history why not have it so that after the White Howlers got beaten down and enslaved by the vampires of Rome that set off a rush for Africa type of scenario. Where all of the other supernatural factions of the world learned about what the vampires did to one of the strongest and most warlike tribes of the werewolves and thought to themselves "if the vampires can kick the werewolves assess and take there lands from them than why cant i and my buddy's do the same?". Suddenly life becomes impossibly even harder for the wolves. As now any supernatural being in the setting with any power no longer fears the wolves and knows they can take there entire tribes in a fight if they put there backs into it and really dig the boot in deep and hard up there hairy assess.

Like the mage traditions seeing that magic is getting harder and harder to cast start going after the wolves so they can steal there places of power and anything else of magic they have.

Hell even the human hunters of the time get even bolder and go after even bigger prizes among the werewolves than even the craziest of them would normally dare as they now know that it could be done if they try hard enough. After all if Rome can win a war with the werewolves then why cant we goes the thinking of many tribes and kingdoms of the time.

>>95945571
Theatre works deceptively well as long as you keep track of range bands. WoD isn't a crunchy enough system to care about actual positioning, cover, and flanking (even though there's technically rules for them)

>>95947486
The White Howlers couldn't have been beaten down OR enslaved by the Roman vampires because Rome literally didn't have the NUMBERS for it, at least not the vampires there. The majority of hte actually dangerous enemies the White Howlers fought were fomori, and these fomori went on to rape their kinfolk and thus corrupt their flesh. Remove the fomori and the banes and Rome literally had no way of taking down the White Howlers.
So the alternate history here makes no sense unless you invent an alternate Rome and alternate vampires too.

I wonder about a 180 alternative reality where 90% of the garou tribes got corrupted and Pentex is actually a company founded by surviving kinfolks of the fallen clans. How fun would it be?

>>95947541
It would be called the Apocalypse, because 909% of Garou being corrupted means the Wyrm has an army powerful enough to wash the entire world in blood.

>>95947508
Were the White Howler immune to silver weapons or something like that? Also could the vampires have gotten the mages of the time to help them with any problem the White Howler put up that they could not deal with themselves if the deal was that the mages got the werewolves caerns and any other magics they had as long as the vampires could take all the land, slaves, and blood from the campaign for themselves?

>>95947546
As in… Werewolf: the Apocalypse?

>>95947550
>Were the White Howler immune to silver weapons or something like that?
No, but you need some SERIOUS numbers and power among those numbers to have taken on a Tribe like the Howlers, even with silver weapons (which were far harder to make back then).
>Also could the vampires have gotten the mages of the time to help them with any problem the White Howler put up that they could not deal with themselves if the deal was that the mages got the werewolves caerns and any other magics they had as long as the vampires could take all the land, slaves, and blood from the campaign for themselves?
Caerns are way too big of a hassle for most Mages to deal with. Mages don't even NEED caerns, they have their own magic they use and deal with. Even if for some reason you got a few Mages, that's not some insta-win. It took the Wyrm itself a pretty long time of slowly worming (no pun intended) its way into the Howler's land to really begin undermining them. And in the end, it was the Howlers themselves that caused their final fall, not Roman force.
So for any of this to work, you'd have to power pump Rome to absurd levels, and even then, the Howlers would more likely just scatter their kin and hide them in places the Romans and even Mages couldn't reach
.

>>95947560
No I mean THE Apocalypse. So the future, not alternate history.

>>95945226
Wait, aren't sorcerers able to convert mummy hekau into sorcery paths?
If sorcerers can convert mummy spells to use mana and thinbloods can convert sorcerer paths to use vitae, Doesn't that mean a tremere bloodugar-daddy could potentially get access to the more broken mummy spells that let them generate and store near-infinite amount of magic power?
The flexibility of those "Disciplines" would also be fucking crazy.

>>95946505
>They kill each other thinking they're working for the wyrm when "smell wyrm taint" is a common low-level gift.
You do realise that the game is full of tools that allow the hiding of spiritual taint and applying spiritual taint to untainted things and things which are effectively harmless ending up spiritually tainted, right? The amount of people who think that Sense Wyrm is some sort of infallible Detect Evil spell is incredible.

>>95946505
>They kill each other thinking they're working for the wyrm when "smell wyrm taint" is a common low-level gift.
No they don't. Where did you even get that idea? Being tainted is not he same as being corrupted, and they have Theurges who can help heal taint and address if someone or something even IS tainted.

>>95947680
You do realize the game is full of tools that bypass spiritual taint suppression and find the root causes behind taint, right? The amount of people that think Suppress Taint is some sort of infallible Nondetection spell is incredible.

>>95947578
Alright then lets assume that Rome and its legions went full glory of Rome and the vampires put everything line the line like it was Carthag come again and it is time to burn the lands and salt the earth once more. Full bore no stops its win or die time if for nothing more than to keep the rest of the werewolf tribes off of Rome's ass and buy themselves more time to stop the barbarian's from sacking Rome in the eyes of the leaders of the empire.

And its not just any mages the vampire clans of Rome have made deals with but the Nefondie mages themselves. The devil worshiping mages know exactly what is coming with the wyrm and the Black spiral corridor. And they want all of that power for themselves and do not want to waste any of it on some worthless werewolves that are about to die out anyways. Such dark majesty should only go to those truly deserving of such great and terrible power.

So the devil mages and the vampires as well as the best legions of Rome go after the White Howlers and the Black Spiral with everything they have before its to late. The vampires think they are stopping one of the prophesies of the book of Nod about the monstrous beasts that rise from the earth at the time of Gehenna. And the devil mages know that at this time and place they know they can steal the power of the defiler Wyrm for themselves if they can just defeat any of the remain werewolves, bane spirits, and fomori left after they have gotten done beating each other to death at this point in there war with each other. While using the Vampires and there human pawns as meat shields so they do not get overwhelmed by anything left in the war that could try to stop them.

Both the vampires and the devil mages thing they are getting everything over the heads of there 'partners' in this war and that they will be the ones to come out on top in the end. And in a way they are both right in that in the end they will both get everything the deserve one way or another.

>>95947680
>>95947723
You do realize the game is full of tools that let you fuck catgirls and get them pregnant with your children, right? The amount of people that think Condoms and Birth Control are some sort of infallible Infertility spell in incredible.

>>95947733
>Alright then lets assume that Rome and its legions went full glory of Rome and the vampires put everything line the line like it was Carthag come again and it is time to burn the lands and salt the earth once more.
Like I said, I don't think it would be ENOUGH. The White Howlers HAD to be destroyed from within. Otherwise they just weren't being defeated. They were abandoned by the rest of the Nation BECAUSE their kin and caerns were all corrupted and lost. If that were not the case, then other Tribes would almost certainly join the fight against Rome.
The White howlers OWNED their land, and it would have been a disaster for the Roman kindred to try to invade them with force.
There simply wouldn't have been ENOUGH vampires to have posed a serious threat, even if they were making legions of shovelheads.

Theoretically if you got a whole bunch of nephandi together, they might've been able to call up Wyrm creatures to undermine the White Howlers, but I doubt they would have been able to muster the power of the Wyrm itself, which did the defiling and corrupting in the first place. But if they did, then it would end basically exactly the same as it did in canon.
Otherwise, it doesn't MATTER how many human pawns they threw at the Howlers, they just weren't going anywhere. Their theugres too were likely more than a match for the Nephandi of that day.
It was a slow process to destroy and bring down the Howlers.

>>95947718
People are so committed to "werewolves are retarded" that they assume that most werewolves do the most retarded thing in every situation, even if their assumptions are entirely head-canon.
The werewolf who mindlessly kills anything that they sniff out as tainted is highlighted as an example of that the absolute worst kind of werewolf who is easily manipulated by the servants of the Wyrm, rather than the norm.

>>95947786
Exactly. It's like they saw only reddit memes and thought that was canon. They like to forget that one of the main jobs of the Theurges is specifically to look after the spiritual purity of the Tribe, and part of that is cleansing taint like a classic shaman. Garou are often exposed to taint as part of their JOB. You don't tangle with fomori without collecting some taint, and so they need the Theurges to help clean off after that.
The amount of "woof-woofs have downs" posting ITT today is retarded in its own right.

>>95947733
dude you're wasting your breath, I think this guy thinks the White Howlers at their peak could solo NATO.

See earlier in the thread. Your game, do what you want with it. You want to do this Underworld: Rise of the Lycans werewolf slave plot? Go for it. No autist on the internet can stop you.

>>95947808
>dude you're wasting your breath, I think this guy thinks the White Howlers at their peak could solo NATO
No, I'm saying that ROME could not have taken down the White Howlers no matter how you slice it. So his jackoff fantasy about enslaving them down into little doggies is never gonna happen in any reality.
The whole narrative point of the Howlers is that they ended up losing all hope and tragically falling from something that all their might could not have stopped.
The other anon's "alt history" boiled down to "well what if Rome just won because they won". It's retarded and completely misses why the Howlers were what they were and why the Black Spirals are important as foils to the Garou in more ways than just "they like pollution".

>>95947805
>The amount of "woof-woofs have downs" posting ITT today is retarded in its own right.

Really? The first guy was pentex posting and besides that I only account for the "why don't they fuck?" thread. I don't have a dog in this race heh at all, but damn you werewolf guys have thin skin.

>>95947829
>damn you werewolf guys have thin skin
I'm mainly seething at the lazy writeup of Rome somehow winning in a flat military conflict with the White Howlers.
It's like an alt-history that boiled down to "what if Germany won WW2 because they just had 10 quadrillion bombs and 50 billion more troops?".

>>95947733
So Rome marches once more in all of its glory to its destiny as promised by the gods themselves. The vampire clans of Rome march in the shadow of the legions with not only thoughts of enslaving a hated foe in the form of the White Howlers but also the desperate vain hope that they can stop one of the Gehenna prophecy's from coming thru and they can once more unlive without fear of the end of the world.

And the devil worshiping Nefandie play the role of both serpent and puppet master as they plot to steal the dark fate of those they see as beneath them and walk the Black Spiral paths and dance the dance of the damned in there stead. For in there minds only they can truly deserve and control such power. And it shall be there's by dark right.

And it goes pretty much how you would think. The devil mages defeat and devour the bane spirits that were destroying the White Howlers after they had done there damage but before they could destroy them in full. And the vampires and the legions of Rome attacked and enslaved all of the peoples of those lands and with the help of the devil mages destroyed any of the remaining fomori and hunted down the broken and scattered remnant's of the White Howler tribe and put them in chains after they had lost so much fighting a losing war with the Wyrm. Any wolves that were to powerful to enslave were destroyed and the young and weak had there minds destroyed by the full power of the vampires mental might and were put in chains.

And after that all that was left to do was handle the black spiral and all of its evil. The devil mages believing that there time was near took the lead in taking the Black spiral and all of its evil power for themselves. And the vampire clans of Rome with there full blessings gave them everything that they wanted. The devil mages so blinded by greed for the power that was soon to be there's cared not a bit that the vampires gave into there demands to easily. The power of the Wyrm was soon to be there's

>>95947786
Too be fair, they'd be 100% right if we were talking about the werewolf ancestors that fucked the world and handed it to the wyrm in the first place.
It's weird that werewolves still perform ancestor worship when it's common knowledge their equivalent of boomers literally made the apocolypse inevitable...

>>95947883
>The devil mages defeat and devour the bane spirits that were destroying the White Howlers
Do you have any idea where said banes were coming from? They weren't just regular banes and they weren't just coming out of a couple wyrmholes.
Secondly, they DID march with the Legion into the White howler lands. And the ONLY soldiers that gave the Howlers a fight were the fomori. You forget that A) Rome needed the Legions for other shit besides the Howlers, and B) how many vampires do you even think EXISTED in Rome? Let alone were martial or magical enough to face the Howlers on their own territory?
You're doing exactly what I said you were doing. You're just saying "What if Rome won because they had 80 trillion soliders and also every single Nephandi on Earth?". It's extremely lazy, and you also don't even bother to say what the other Tribes were doing in this alternate scenario, or even the Howlers themselves.

>>95947887
To be fair, the Wars of Rage were started BY the Wyrm tricking the Garou in the first place. It wasn't them being retarded, it was them being manipulated and tricked, and then their own nature as violent warriors carried them into destruction.

>>95947905
I'd agree if it happened Once, but the fuckers did it Three Times.

>>95947924
no anon you don't understand, it's always the wyrm.

he's just so tricky.

we got bamboozled.

it's never our fault, it's always the wyrm.

>>95947924
Fair, the Second War was the Shadow Lords being EXTREMELY angry about bats. But to be fair, the Tzimisce love turning into giant bats, and the Camazotz used blood magic, so that's not so much retarded as it is just reactive.
The War of Tears was also explicitly the doing of Mara the Scream.
And the War of Shame wasn't even the Garou. It was the Beast Courts being manipulated to fight eachother by the Wan Xian. So the werewolves didn't even start that one by any measure.

Can you call all of this just "retarded garou"? Yeah, I guess. But then literally every war and conflict is just the result of people being retarded and so WoD becomes WoR. Which is, in and of itself, retarded.

>>95947929
>Werewolve's job description: Destroying the enemies of gaia to maintain the balance of the spirit world
>Wyrm's Job description: Destroying things to maintain the balance of gaia
>The most numerous, most powerful, best organized, and generally winning werewolf faction works for the wyrm.

>>95947960
Don't forget that of the different species of possessed, Fomori are the Only ones who have both the power to build a series of related alternate forms And breed true.

>>95947960
Werewolves being a Wyrmish breed is actually a favorite theory of mine.

>>95947966
tfw you realize Pentex is the only source of new fera breeds in the modern day...

>>95947960
Woah....so every single faction is jus the Wyrm's sockpuppet accounts....

This is why I love WoD. The world is like a 4d chess match being played by autistic schizos while they're high on LSD.

>>95947883
So the Nephandi go into the Black Spiral tunnels as the vampires of Rome stay behind and watch them leave. The Nephandi get as far as they can go down the Black Spiral but it was already over for them the moment they all stepped foot on this path to there doom. For the vampire never believed in leaving anything to chance. And who was to say the Nephandi were the only ally's they had called on in this war. No matter how evil or vile you are you never turn your back on a vampire.

The Vampire clans of Rome may not have known much about these Nephandi devil worshiping mages. But only a mad fool would trust such madmen with the power of a dark god like the defiler Wyrm. So the vampires conspired and schemed as only they could. And they dragged every supernatural power they could find in the English islands behind them hidden from the White Howlers, Wyrm, And most of all the Nephandi themselves as this back stab was for them in particular. Every goodly mage that loved the world and all of its wonders, the most powerful fairies of the fay courts who would not see hope and joy die even if it cost them all there lives, even the poor and beaten werewolves of story and song the Fionna were dragged to this forsaken land by chains made of duty and love for Gaia and nothing else even as they knew what they would next do would damn there brother tribe in the White Howlers to eternal damnation with what had to be done next.

The vampires of Rome had lead all of these beings and more to this time and place to do what all of them knew must be done. Even if only the vampires truly desired what was next to happen. They would all of them use every scrap of magic they all had from blood, fairy, spirit, and true magic and more to do the impossible and close the portal of the Black Spiral for all time as the Nephandi were used as sacrificial pawns and dupes to buy the spell casters the time they needed to cast there almighty spell and seal the evil of the black Spiral forever.

>>95947969
Apparently rage has got to come from somewhere. I guess it comes from the Wyrm.

>>95948034
Nope. Oh, people can go over to the Wyrm because of absolutely unrestrained rage, but that's actually a lot rarer than you might think. Rage is there because Gaia isn't nice.

>>95948012
And after the deed was done and all those that had survived the casting of the almighty spell and had not been killed or driven insane by the backlash of casting the spell or the closing of the Black Spiral picked themselves back up and saw what they had achieved with so many lost lives. They all knew that at the vary least this day was saved and that they would all live. But once more the lesson is vary clear. No matter how dire the reason you must never trust a vampire. For yes the vampire clans of Rome had given everything they had to cast the sealing spell along with all the rest of the spell casters. And they were all just as weakened and tired as everyone else had not called on the legions of Rome they had brought with them to this war. That is until now that is.

With horn blasts blaring from undead trumpeters calling forth there mortal pawns soon the vampire clans of Rome would soon destroy the last of there rivals for these islands and there domination of this land would be complete. But fate as always can be fickle. And even the best of all scams can be undone by just one person not trusting you at the right time. So it was that one of the mages of these islands did draw his last ace and hope it would work and save all of there live. Though the vampires had convinced the mages they had brought with them to this fell place that they would need every magic user they could get there hands on to ensure they could cast the sealing spell. And that even the strongest of the mages apprentices would have to go as well. One mage decided to risk everything and leave his apprentice behind with a back up plan if everything went wrong. His apprentice would swoop in in the nick of time in the master mages fast flying air ship and save as many lives no matter who it was from whatever danger was left. So while the survivors of the spell to seal the black spiral pit were many and weakened the flying ship was still large enough to save everyone left.

>>95948154
And such is the story of the birth of the Blood Hound tribe of werewolves born from the destruction and enslavement of the White Howler tribe in all of its sorrow and all of its glory. And everything else is left up to the rest of you to do with as you please. Or you can change anything else about this tribe to make it fit the world of darkness as you see it. Just post you ideas here as well. As i want to read them all and see how you make my idea for a tribe and its history even better than i could imagen by self.

>>95947490
That was my thinking yeah, all the movement etc is in metres and could be used but I dunno if there's anything to be gained from it.

>>95946505
>I though paranoid schizophrenia and retardation were the opposite of autism?
Autism and Schizophrenia are so similar that you can't have both at once

>>95947786
werewolves (well more accurately the elders and spirits) kinda are retarded which is why they still think that the apocalypse can only be averted through killing instead of realizing that no matter how many banes or pentex employees they kill the underlying conditions that let them thrive still remain and so they will always lose in the end, it's sorta the underlying tragedy of the Garou nation that they are so stuck in past glories that they have been left behind by the world and are now just antiquated monsters that can only impotently lash out in anger against a foe that has surpassed them long ago

>>95948376
1e take. It started flaking away for the same reason that BattleTech stopped banging the "BattleMechs can no longer be produced!" drum. Noteworthy that both setting "assumptions" didn't last when the rubber hit the road, because that interfered with the kind of game that they were making.

But then W5 came around and treated that one throwaway notion as truth, except that you can't even find any of these elders or ancestor spirits around. Great game setting design there, Lou.

>>95948376
except for all of the werewolves, such as entire progressive tribes and the more progressive camps in conservative tribes, who aren't like that
werewolves have done dumb and retarded shit that put them in a difficult position and some are still morons even today but you're basically just taking the most regressive get of fenris and red talons and saying that they're representative of all werewolves everywhere
in which case, no wonder you think they're all irredeemably retarded if you're tunnel-visioning on the most retarded ones of the bunch

Dracula's got a weird version of Blush of Life

>>95947413
Kinfolk are treated better than regular humans, because of their relationship with the Fera. Fera are part spirit, their pacts with spirit are natural their birth right. Kinfolk are just normal humans/wolves.

>>95948600
Paradox wanted to turn all splats into a street level story of "personal horror" and their idea for W5 was "what would you do if you failed the task that you were born to fulfill?". So they had to go scorched earth on almost everything that made WtA cool to achieve the right mood for that... and basically made the setting pointless, especially considering that they mock the "keep fighting to the bitter end" so throughly, even the game mechanics punish you for that

>>95948300
They're medically and symptomatically opposites anon.
Schizophrenia result from having neural dendrites that are too long with too few connections on any given length of dendrite. The symbology revolves not being able to process information properly and the brain generally running below it's normal capacity.
Autism results from having neural dendrites that are too short and have far too many connections over any given length of them. The symptomology revolves around the brain processing too much information to the point that it becomes impossible to communicate properly and the brain general running too hot in general.
That's the reason you can't generally have both at once(unless your genes are exotically fucked).

>>95949265
>Kinfolk are just normal humans/wolves.
No they aren't, they're just less than a full 50% spirit.
Actually that reminds me of another point that makes the garou kinda retarded: If a fera breeds with a spirit, the result is a full Fera. There's literally backgrounds and merits you can take specifically from having one parent be a spirit.
They could literally just find some spirits of fertility and replenish their numbers in a single generation.

>>95949879
>They could literally just find some spirits of fertility and replenish their numbers in a single generation.
But that would require a lot more planing and infrastructure than the wolves are capable of.

>NOOOOO! FUCK YOU, YOU FUCKING MUNCHKIN POWER GAMING FAGGOT! NO YOU CAN'T BE A REVENANT MAGE! YOU'RE NOT GOING TO RUIN THE GAME WITH YOUR ONE DOT OF AUSPEX!!! GO FUCK YOURSELF!!! FUCK YOU! FUCK YOU! FUCK YOOOOUUUU!!!!!!!

>>95950212
V20 retconned this, so even other VtM fanboys thought this guy was a faggot.

On the topic of vampires, I got into WoD through WtA, but I want to learn more about VtM since it seems to be such a cornerstone of the setting. So, which edition is the best to get started on VtM?

>>95947966
What the fuck were the devs smoking when they gave fomori exclusive access to the "Procreate" power, especially when nereids in the same book(lets also ignore the fact that the example nereid was a possessed human, and those are impossible by the rules...)

>>95950265
V20, especially Dark Ages V20. V20 and C20(changeling) are the only two splats that actually came out much better from getting an anniversary update.
Every other splat I'd recommend starting with revised.

>>95950313
C20 is one of the games I'm trying to convince my GM to run. What improved?

>>95950852
For one, the somehow perfectly merged the dark ages and pre-20th mechanics. Between cantrips and unleashing, it's possible to replicate just about any fairy myth you can think of.
They also cleaned up there write-ups for various factions, including foreign galain, so now mixed chronicles don't require half a million obscure mechanics spread across 40 books.
The negatives are that they don't really have a lot of content since C20 came out just as they were retiring 20th and the books are fucking overstuffed like all of 20th. The new mechanics are complimentary enough that you can convert lore/adventures from previous editions easily enough. The core book is thick enough to kill a boar with despite being light on lore and worldbuilding, it really should have been split into 3 books that could have gone more in depth.

>>95947623
This isn't as bad when you realize sorcerers don't need a balance/quest/etc score to progress their paths. Mummies are gated hardcore by balance, at a balance score of 1 their attributes, abilities, And hekau are capped at 1. Sorcerers converting hekau to paths are able to progress into acquiring greater hekau(6+) without divine moral authority looking over their shoulder. Good Fucking Luck to whatever vampire tries turning that monster into a thinblood, he'll be wishing he watched the sunrise on his first night by the time the curses finish settling in.

>>95951100
I'm pretty sure that being shit at balance only lowers hekau path and attributes if you're over 5. Also as far as I remember from the sorc books, the highest hekau levels sorcerers get access to is 5, 6 and higher is mummy only. The part about sorcs not having to deal with balance is very true though.

I'm an independent ghoul revenant kinfolk kinain sorceror hunter mummy fomor thrall with multiple cybernetics :)

>>95951146
>I'm pretty sure that being shit at balance only lowers hekau path and attributes if you're over 5.
I used to think that too, but the balance section doesn't have the usual"Only above 5" boilerplate other splats have. Unlike literally every other splat, a mummy with balance below 5 can't have hekau Or attibutes at 5. They get Extra fucked by not following their moral code.
>Also as far as I remember from the sorc books, the highest hekau levels sorcerers get access to is 5, 6 and higher is mummy only.
This is also a thing everyone, including me, assumed, but when I was recently looking through to books while I was STing I found that that isn't actually printed anywhere.
There are no caps for sorcerer paths listed in the entire Sorcerer revised book and paths go to 6 by default, so the usual 1-5 limit can't apply.
I'm 99% this because of shitting devs, but as it currently stands a sorcerer can 100% learn a "Path of Hekau" to the 9th dot for 8th level hekau spells.

>>95951200
You can't stack hunter, fomor, and ghoul. Hunter is mutually exclusive to both of those. Ghouled fomor aren't really a thing because creatures with gnosis are violently allergic to vitae and banes hate going near anything with vampire blood(they literally get trapped forever if the get stuck in a vampire and are just as compelled if their host get blood bound).

>>95951236
Sorcerer and hunter are also mutually exclusive according to the Spellbound hunter book. Hunters are barred from awakening and all forms of hedge magic, those who use either can't be imbued by the messengers.

>>95950265
How the fuck was WtA the thing that got you into WoD? Is something wrong with you?

>>95951200
Good luck maintaining 4 morality systems that turn you into an NPC if you fuck up.

>>95951200
Mummies can't be possessed anon

>>95951203
wtf they're better at mummy magic than actual mummies

I'm a furry

>>95951303
Fuck, this was supposed to be a reply to >>95951268

>>95951286
Lore-wise, mummies are literally just immortal sorcerers using a ritual to become pseudo-risen without losing their sorcery. The immortality spell came with a few benefits and drawbacks outside of just immortality.
On the other hand, it costs sorcerers a shit ton more xp to develop paths. Sorcerers take a ratingx7 cost vs a mummy's ratingx6 or even ratingx5 if udja-sen.

>>95951268
WtA is based, because you get to be a hulked-out warrior and go fisticuffs with demons from beyond hell. Why WOULDN'T it be appealing?

>>95951277
5 systems:
>Balance/Corruption
>Autonomy
>Nightmare/Bedlam
>Humanity
>Willpower
They also overlap so much that a sin against any one of them can cause a cascade that loses you points from the others(except nightmare anyway).
Losing points also lowers his max attributes in Everything, even below 5.

>>95951369
If the fomor pick up Rage it increases to 6 and starts a negative feedback loop with his vampire Beast. Those chronic frenzies will really help to keep him from degenerating into a crazied NPC I'm sure.

>>95951366
noooo you're supposed to be miserable playing wod!

>>95951476
Mage games are so miserable. You need all the spheres to do anything fun :(

>>95951608
You just need to know your stuff and be creative.
Like, you can beat be Mono sphere and still kick everyone ass. Hell, even Rank 1 Spheres can kick ass.

>>95951608
I still hate the writers for going full retard with M20. The original intent was for the sphere to have overlap, Using time for superspeed was just as valid as using corresponece for example. Yet somehow these braindead yahoos got the idea this means an effect needs to require Every sphere in that overlap, and now superspeed needs time, correspondence, life, etc, and somehow that's a reasonable requirement when the greatest master only have mastery of 6 spheres at most.

Curseborne is getting revised manuscripts which OPP never does.

>>95951476
I hate this meme that the only two ways to play WoD are misery porn and silly power wank.

>>95951730
Is the game even out? How is it already getting a revision?

>>95951745
Because the backer manuscript went out and had feedback given on it, like all the other games they kickstart. They just don't usually put out those revisions until the book done and is out.

>>95951286
There are a lot of ways the Sorcerer Revised book buffs the shit out of socerers that I'm absolutely sure was unintentional.
For example: Sorcerers, like mages, operate on threshold rules for their magic. You cap at +/-3 to base difficulty and difficulty increases over that increase the number of successes needed. Unlike mages however, Sorcerers have a max difficulty of 9 instead of mage's 10, meaning they can have Diff 6(50/50 successes on dicepool) for their hardest magic. On top of that, sorcerers can use mana to get Negative threshold if they're already -3 And paths benefit from resonance.
This means a sorcerer with the right resonance can get the maximum -3 before spending mana, and blow their entire 5 mana on Extra Successes that stack with spending willpower.
People complain about exponential aspect math, but a master sorcerer with 10 dice in their casting pool can very easily get 11-12 successes to cast high level spells. It just takes a minimal level of prep time that most players didn't have enough patience for at time of release.

>>95951730

>>95951969
I don't follow?

>>95952017
Paradox actually listening to fan feedback to revise the manuscript means they've taken enough financial hits to Value it over the opinions of their internal wackjobs. That means they're genuinely afraid of another financial bomb hitting their profit margins.

>>95952093
It's not Paradox, and they're not taking feedback on it. They're just showing off the changes.

>>95951034
Thanks; I'm still hoping to convince him to give a try to either that or Mage20.

>>95951734
>silly power wank
The thing about WtA is that you're fighting also really powerful creatures. So it's the heroic struggle against overwhelming evil.

>>95950265
Always read the 1st ed. core for any oWoD gameline. It's not the whole setting, and things get changed and added, but it's shows off the really cool ideas behind it and in general has the best mood writing.

>>95952755
I'll second this for VtM. The 1e core for VtM has an incredible tone.

>>95952654
Whatever the game is supposed to be about, or is about to you, my point is that WoD discussion often devolves into misery porn v.s. silly power wank as if either of those positions are good or even common.

>>95953002
>as if either of those positions are good or even common
Anon, have you ever talked to Any community ever? Misery porn and power-wank are absolutely common.

>>95953896
In discussion? Yes. That's what I'm lamenting. You think a majority of VtM games are people going in a circle crying about their fake lives? Or that most Werewolf tables are just taking turns circle-jerking about how strong and cool their fictional murder-furries are?

If auras aren't necessarily colors and that's just a layer of interpretation for spectrums and patterns that would otherwise be beyond your senses, then it must be possible to process that data through racism with the same clarity.

>>95949879
>they're just less than a full 50% spirit.
This isn't true though. They're not any part spirit, the Garou's spirit heritage isn't a genetic thing that gets passed on, just like how being Garou isn't actually genetic either. There are rites to create Kin, the Garou aren't somehow turning them into a spirit, Gaia is just bestowing her blessing.

>>95954278
>This isn't true though.
Kinfolk can have gnosis. Your point is invalid.

>>95954278
>There are rites to create Kin, the Garou aren't somehow turning them into a spirit
Anon,there are rites to create garou. Are you going to argue this doesn't make the recipient part spirit?
Also, why wouldn't rites be able to make people into partial spirits? It's spirit magic.

>>95954278
Something not being genetic doesn't mean it's not able to be inherited. Becoming kinain has nothing to do with genetics either, but arguing kinain aren't part fae would be retarded.

>>95949879
Once had a character concept that was basically a fertility spirit incarnated into a garou to replenish their ranks. Since she was primarily a spirit she could mate with other garous and not produce metis.

>>95951730
I've read through it now and I'm overall happy with the changes. Most of the big stuff I'd already seen but for those not in the know the entire mechanical template was pretty much rewritten. Now it's a lot more clear how being incorporeal works, how taking damage is handled with a dead body, the Major/Minor Attributes have been fixed, as well as how their urges and damnation is supposed to be implemented. Motifs are all different too but without the magic chapter it's hard to evaluate those. What I do appreciate beyond those mechanics is that Sam's narration about what being a Dead is like has a stronger air of truth to it. In the initial manuscript there was this habit of a character telling you something only to then say it might work differently for someone else. Which really muddied the ideas being presented. Now it reads more as a strong baseline you may deviate from rather than this single characters life that may or may not be useful.

>>95954307
Gnosis is just indicative of a connection to Gaia, not something that only spirits have.
>>95954318
Skin Walkers aren't part spirit, which is why spirits naturally hate them.
>>95954330
Kinain are fae-blooded, but this doesn't make them part fae, as being fae is a very different quality from being a human with Glamour.
None of you could produce a source that claims that kinfolk are part spirit either.

>>95954524
Wow, everything you typed was wrong. You should take your meds anon.

>>95948604
It's because the smarter tribes were underrepresented in Garou history until the 19th century. Bone Gnawers and Glass Walkers were of a lower caste, and Children of Gaia were not very populous in Europe.

>>95952857
I'm autistic so I checked the credits and release dates for every Vampire book and there's an extremely strong correlation with the momentum of Achilli's career and VtM losing its original (actual) goth and (actual) punk style. Don't hate him, has good ideas, but he's clearly a TTRPG first and foremost.

>>95954650
I'm curious as to what good ideas you think Achilli had.

It's fair to say that VtM's setting fixtures are often at odds with good game design, but I can't say I could name something Achilli added that I liked, either on grounds of lore or game design.

>>95954693
I don't remember specifics to him, I'm just giving him partial credit for the lore of Revised. If I went too far, I'll just say I don't hate him. I prefer WoD gonzo but not goth over neither goth nor gonzo.

>>95954726
You're free to like who or whatever you want Anon. Personally I only like some gonzo, too much of it and I lose my investment in things.

To that end, I'm actually not the biggest fan of Revised relative to 1e and 2e. I really don't like the metaplot's direction or choices. Which is not to say that I actively dislike Revised, it has some very good books in it. I love Midnight Siege for example, one of my favorite VtM books.

>>95954524
Anon, if kinfolk aren't part spirit, how is it that they can produce half-spirit garou in from kin/kin pairs? How are they able to learn gifts or use special fetishes,regardless of if they have gnosis, that no other humans can?
>Kinain are fae-blooded, but this doesn't make them part fae
Kinain are explicitly called out as part fae in both the Enchanted book for pre-20th and the C20 corebook.
Anon, your headcanon is trash.

>>95954524
>Gnosis is just indicative of a connection to Gaia, not something that only spirits have.
Then prey tell, why is gnosis only found in spirits, half-spirits, and possessed? Why has there been no other creature "blessed" by gaia without being part spirit? Your idea doesn't make any sense.

>>95954278
>>95954524
Aren't kinfolk able to take spirit heritage? How the hell would that be possible without being part spirit?

>>95951953
To cool off the sorcerer wank somewhat, most of the actually cool shit(enchanting and alchemy especially) is gated behind Rituals. Said rituals take Months to learn each, which is not an amount of downtime a mortal character can expect to have regularly.

On top of that, ever sorcerer effect is highly specialized. Anon above was gushing about stacking extra successes, dice, etc, with enchanting, but his example would take 5 magic items, each of which would need their own ritual research, and would only work for 1 type of roll.

On top of that, "fast" spells take a number of turns to cast equal to their spell level. This means is literally more effective for a master of hellfire to just use a mundane gun than his legendary magical prowess if he hasn't taken painstaking preparations beforehand.

Sorcerers are only effective if given a shit-ton of prep-time, which isn't something you can assume to have in a normal campaign. The white-box power-wanking is ridiculous.

Guys help me a Fetish and a challenge for WtA here:

>New pack of Rank 1 Werewolves
>Fresh out of their rite of passage where they've gotten a big vision to do with averting massive danger to the Caern.
>Vision is secretly given by Pheonix and could hint at this pack being the next Silver Pack, and turning the tide of the Silver Fang/Shadow Lords struggle to lead the Garou Nation
>PC's know nothing of that, think it's just something to do with averting danger from the Caern.
>The Elders of the pack won't let them leave to pursue the visions into Moscow City, because the Elders don't believe it's genuinely a sign of the next silver pack
>Nuwisha in disguise plans to help the players challenge the Elders, and cheat in the challenge, to be granted the rite to leave.

I need a suitable challenge for the Elders to pose the players, and a Fetish designed to help them cheat at it, but also maybe be useful later on as they will get to keep it.

HERMETICS ARE A BUNCH OF FUCKING NERDS!!!

>>95953975
the kinda shit NWO agents say before going etherite

>>95951953
Mate, I would be surprised if there are more than two or three Sorcerers who can accomplish what you said in the entire WoD. Perhaps in Horizon? One of the failed Hermetics

>>95954594
that poster was making a statement about werewolves in the modern day
pointing out that werewolves were more retarded in the past is irrelevant and already accounted for with this statement
>werewolves have done dumb and retarded shit that put them in a difficult position and some are still morons even today
no one is saying that werewolves are universally shining examples of intellectualism and always have been, the argument is just that people love to over-exaggerate how retarded werewolves are, even in the modern era

How extensive is ghoul longevity. If I ghoulified a person in their early 20s, how long could would they pass for being in their early 20s?
10 years? 20 years? 50 years? More?

>>95955812
as long as they have vitae they don't age at all, but the moment they don't get their monthly dose they rapidly age to their true age even if it kills them

or are you asking how long they could stay 20 year old in society?

>>95956258
It was about physical longevity. It's just that I'd heard ghouls did age just slower but I'd also read they didn't age so I wanted to be sure.

>>95956282
assuming vtm and assuming they didn't change anything with v5 as i haven't read all of that: revenants are sometimes said to age slower by a factor of 4 although this is sometimes conflicted by other sources saying that they age normally (one story has a 10 year old revenant who is actually large for his age) while ghouls don't age as long as they have vitae
revenants can however be ghouls which stops their aging

(cainite) dhampire's been a ??? as far as i remember because at the end of revised the first ones just started showing up together with the thinbloods

>>95956258
Theoretically, forever. Cynically, your vampire will get injured or bored to torpor and you putrefy to death while praying at the edge of the bog you hope he's under.

>>95955812
helena had paris as ghoul for 2000 years and he still looked like he was in his 30

>>95956305
>>95956357
>>95956335
>>95956335
I might have been mixing it up with revenant in my mind then, thanks.

>>95955488
>more than two or three Sorcerers who can accomplish what you said
Anon, there are more Archmages than that and the amount of sorcerers is at least 10x-100x the number of mages. What he described is something a Starting character can do, which is path 5, mana 5, Att/Ability 5, and 3 resonance. That would be a common trick for hermetic and dreamspeaker apprentices.

>>95956432
Nope, by all accounts, 90% of Sorcerers aren't even qualified to be considered Adept at their paths. Rest of the 9% are adepts and the 1% are Master of their Path aka Path 5.

What you are suggesting is closer to the %0.001 of Sorcerers. Olympic/Albert Einstein level Attributes and Abilities, combined with access to enough Quintessence and decades of Mastery of a Path.

>>95956432
I would have you remake your character with me if you come up to me with Attribute 5/Ability 5 character, let alone Path 5 at the Session 0.
What are you? Dr. Strange?

>>95956508
>Nope, by all accounts
Anon, if 1% were masters of their path, then there would be hundreds to thousands of sorcerers able to do what anon above described. Not "2 or 3".
Math isn't your strong-suit is it?
>>95956529
Did you actually read sorcerer revised? Being Path 5 is a thing the book allows explicitly.
In the book's own words:
>It is worth noting that the linear mage is NOT limited to spending only three points in a single path. Reaching the heights of power in a narrower field is one of the advantages of a sorcerer.
So while mages are still learning to become adapt at a sphere, sorcerers can have mastered a path entirely and moved on to another and the book supports this completely.

>>95956508
>Calculate 1% of sorcerers were masters of their path
>Thinks only 1/1000 Masters can use mana
Are you retarded?

>>95956508
>>95956529
>You must only play my street-level misery-porn game
No, fuck you achilli.

>>95956571
Most Sorcerer organizations have less than 100 members. Meaning a single Master Mage with Path 1.

When you get to the Traditions and the Technocracy, the Technocracy has tens of thousands of Extraordinary Personnel but they are the entire Technocracy. I doubt a single Tradition has more than 2000 Sorcerers at most. Let's be generous and say 100 Master Sorcerers, you described character would be the %1 of that 1%.

Are there even a single Attribute 5, Ability 5, Path 5 Sorcerer example?

>>95956529
I can't blame anyone for minmaxing. The game actively punishes people for not minmaxing. The entire system is set up for it.

>>95956612
>I doubt a single Tradition has more than 2000 Sorcerers at most.
Anon, there are around 12,000 tradition mages. You estimates would make the number of dorcerers almost even with the number of mages.
The core mage book disagrees.

Anyone knows if Mark's recent RPGs are Vaporware?

>mages, vampires, wolves, and true believers grow linearly while some groups like changelings and fallen (demons) are outright static and actually ever decreasing in number
>humanity grows exponentially after the renaissance and especially the industrial revolution then redoubles that growth after modern medicine

Is this a good explanation for why the technocracy is losing its grip on reality and is actually a shell of its former self?

New thread!

>>95957404
>>95957404
>>95957404