Breakout Edition

Resources:
WFB: https://pastebin.com/qVGrgwwh
WM: https://pastebin.com/EsDAgeba
WFRP: https://pastebin.com/inbyBsR6
Novels: https://pastebin.com/PFqPDr0H
>Warhammer Chronicles:
https://files (dot) catbox (dot) moe/0xt777 (dot) zip
>Time of Legends:
https://files (dot) catbox (dot) moe/q46ut6 (dot) zip
>The End Times:
https://files (dot) catbox (dot) moe/j7d0t5 (dot) zip
>TOW:
https://gofile.io/d/fxFgXS
https://www.warhammer-community.com/the-old-world-downloads/
>Alternative Models:
https://pastebin.com/xPeM9szL

>Previous Thread:
>>95938429

>Thread Question:
Which army are you currently working on? Which army are you thinking about starting?

>tq
empire. gonna take me ages to paint all my guys. hope i can stick with it.

>tq
Right this very second, I'm expanding my chaos army with some forsaken and a chariot.

>>95947193 (OP)
>Which army are you currently working on? Which army are you thinking about starting?
I've got a bunch of Warlord Landsknechts that are crying out to be painted after I do some American Civil War shit. It's going to be tough to decide whether I want all the troops to be able to do double duty as Italian Wars troops, all loud and colourful but without a clear identity in Warhammer except as maybe mercenaries, or to paint the pike and musket blocks as a Warhammer army, either Averland or Marienburg, leaving them less useful if somebody publishes some good Italian Wars rules.

>>95947193 (OP)
>TQ
Cathay, a few more paints and a LOT more practice is needed. After that, Dwarves if I can pick up an old Ungrim Ironfist off ebay or find a 3D print I like, or Vampires if I can figure out a list I like. Elsewise I'll probably just pick up some Skaven pieces here and there for a long term goal to be done in a few years

>>95947193 (OP)
Working on cold ones still. Pretty close to completion now.

>>95947193 (OP)
>TQ
Vampire Counts. I absolutely love old zombies and Grave Guard

Is Free Company Militia viable in an Empire army? In the planning stage for an Empire army, and want to go pirate themed, and those models seem to really help with the theme.

>>95947193 (OP)
>TQ
warrios of chaos, probably gonna sell them after I finish it though. maybe for cathay.
>but its just a microfaction right now!
Dont really care. Cataphraci armor is cool

>daemonology sorcerer prophet, lore familiar, daemonic familiar
>khan on wolf with great weapon
>dragon slaying sword black orc warboss on wyvern
>2x21 shortbow hobgoblins
>18 man blorc mob
>7 man detachment of fireglaive guard
>17 man great weapon ironsworn
>5 man hobgoblins with bow and spear
>2 dreadquake mortars
Does this seem like a good balance between decent and flavorful?

>>95947193 (OP)
Almost done with my first 10 high elf spearmen.

>>95947288
>sell them
whatcha got an how much

>>95947258
Lot of power in this image. Kemmler smiles on you.

What do you guys use for terrain?

>>95947345
soda pops and pop tart boxes

>>95947345
Anything L shaped

>>95947317
16 chaos warriors, a giant, a lord on a horse, a soon to be magnetized wizard lord on a horse or a manticore, 10 chaos knights, a gore beast chariot, and a useless warsrhine.

I have a leftover magister for Aos that I’m sort of considering putting on a square to up the price. Which all in all would probably be for like, $180 after it’s all done and painted. Except for the warshrine, I’m not fucking dealing with the warshrine. Fuck that thing.

>>95947345
Actual 3D printed terrain.
I find the symmetry autism expectations of some players incredibly annoying though.

>>95947193 (OP)
TQ
10 gladeguard working on 11th up to 14. I think I found a static grass I like for basing but not super well experienced on applying it so will be interesting aka some fuck ups inbound. Then back to maidenguard. Slow and steady
>what army to start next?
Well I've got a shitton of beastmen and wood elves and work at a snails pace. That said, it would be chorfs or high elves since I have a few models already from back in the day/random lots and I think I'd like either playstyle. But that's a far out dream, gonna force 1k pts of woodies to be painted by end of year is the goal.

>>95947282
Warband and horde helps, impetuous, less so.
As they have ranged weapons (9 inches) and melee the pirate theme will well served.
No armour crap leadership and no upgrades also means they'll die easy, and since they are levies I think no heoeos cna join them.

>>95947488
With horde and warband they can hit ld10 at max rank bonus.

>>95947345
3d printed stuff and homemade hills, and a popsicle bridge we've had since forever lol. I need a proper mat tho I'm using the one I had for battlefleet gothic so....we just joke and say Athel Lorens mushrooms are in season for now.

>>95947345
LEGOs

Egypt adventure sets make great tombs

>>95947471
I was going to start Dwarfs but because of your posts my heart in now torn between them and Wood Elfs.

>>95947555
Wood elves are easier to paint.

>>95947558
It's not about ease of painting. I can't decide if I prefer the Karaks or Athel Loren.

>>95947193 (OP)
>tq
Last thing I worked on was building some counts as sabretusks out of boars with gnoblars riding them.
My only finished army is Empire, but I have half an ogres army, half a chaos dwarf army, but I don't know what I actually want to build next.

>>95947555
Surely you meant this for the other woodie with better painted glade guard and a rocking GW gladelord. Mine are the speed paint ones that I think look solid for not too much effort. But I like the way they look and outside the glade guard most the models look really cool and the lore interesting. And yeah as >>95947558 says they aren't too hard to assemble or paint so far.

>>95947193 (OP)
Currently working on my Beastmen. Have a few more to assemble

What's the deal with the harbinger of doom? He's got this special ability but he only joins flagellants who already have 6++ and 5++. Granted the specifics are slightly different but having to leadership test to upgrade it to 6++ on all attacks (versus just non magical) and 5++ against enemies with fear or terror just doesn't seem that impactful.

>>95947605
>empire character
See that's your issue

>>95947514
yeah but they're still 3s all across the board, maybe have them come in via ambush somehow

When are we getting Cathay team for Bloodbowl?

>>95947641
Road wardens are the only empire thing that can get ambush.

>>95947592
Nice work! Keep it up!

>>95947717
when stormcast get added in

>>95947717
Then a free company only army might be lacking in staying power, althought they do not cause panic test when they get destroyed due to Levy.
I would still got with standard state troops, acting as Marines, canons of course, and Road Wardens but call them smugglers or highwaymen instead.

>>95947745
The real answer is to just run exiles or maybe wolves of the sea. Don't know how strongly he feels about Empire though.

The wood elf roster seems fun, but I have always disliked wood elf aesthetics. Is it socially acceptable to use different models with those rules?

>>95947720
Thanks Anon, still have some ungors and a ghorgon to assemble after these lads, so it’s a lot of work left to do.

>>95947779
Low effort shitpost gets low effort response:
Eh

>>95947779
it depends on who you play with obviously

>>95947282
I've seen people who say they're better than State Troops, but that's not saying much.

In a situation where TOW explodes in popularity to the point where it's on par with 40k is it likely GW would split up Chaos Warriors with AJ's for each gods worshippers, and as for the eventual Deamons would we get a main Deamons of Chaos AJ and then separate God specific books? I mean Cathay getting a 2nd AJ that doesn't have new units in it means it wouldn't really cost them anything.

And if we get both of those what are the odds we get AJ's for some of the more well known Skaven clans? Skryre, Moulder, Eshin and Pestelins at least.... presumably with Mors being the main starter in the initial AJ?
I just like collecting lore so the idea of lots of AJ's tickles me.

>>95947916
>In a situation where TOW explodes in popularity to the point where it's on par with 40k
unlikely

>>95947921
But i want a full bookshelf of AJ's :(

>>95947916
>I just like collecting lore so the idea of lots of AJ's tickles me
Me too, I started collecting old army books off ebay recently. I also bought the first Gortrek and Felix omnibus from GW last week (they have a rotating BL roster) and am loving Trollslayer so far. I am going to try and buy more Fantasy novels when I finish.

>>95947916
The AJs are such bland shit compared to Army Books. I hope they don't survive this edition

>>95947979
I miss Army Books too. I can get lost for hours reading Army Books. With AJs I skim through them briefly. They just don't excite at all. This "Ravening Hordes" and "Forces of Fantasy" + AJs model is dumb and I hope it only existed because GW was hedging their bets with TOW and didn't want to invest. Give us full fledged Army Books that also have Armies of Infamy.

WIP crossbows.

>>95947916
>looks at Horus heresy
Dude, they’re gonna get invalidated by next edition.

>>95947979
The arcane journals are only a horrible value proposition when compared to space marines, compared to the other armies and the cost/page is only slightly worse. From that point of view i kinda of like the AJ's a bit more since it allows GW to update things a bit instead of having to wait for a new edition.

>>95948016
They're fine as rulebooks, they're shit as lore sources. Army books were collations of in-universe writings, maps, and second hand reporting of events. They were meant to excite your imagination and get you asking questions. AJs have this dull, unambiguous, god's' eye view of everything and lack all character.

>>95947193 (OP)
Tq: Empire

I still have to finish my state troops. I actually have another steam tanks and two captains on griffon finished but couldn‘t fit them on the same shelf space.

>>95948009
Good work on the faces.

>>95948033
Very nicely done, Anon

>>95947193 (OP)
>TQ
Got one razorgor done, I bought it off ebay for 35$, it's missing all spikes, teeth and extra shoulder bits, it was also horrible to build, as there's gaps all over. I'm almost temped to make one Chaos Spawn (Slaanesh) instead of my second, complete razorgor I got off GW.
It'll also add some diversity to my army, a 500 pts of mosstly monsters

Just got fucking crumpled in a 1500 pt game against black templars. Rolled so many ones fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck. First game playing on TTS, pretty damn handy for 40k once you go through the rigamarole of setting it up.

>>95948030
That sounds like it's more an issue of the writers that'd still be present in an army book doesn't it?

>>95948109
wrong thread broskito

>>95948109
Sorry pal, this is the thread for the other Black templars.

>>95948119
Oh, damn yeah, mind the autism

>>95948111
No. The format of presenting the world through unreliable narration is itself a shield against bad writing. For example if pic related were presented as an in-universe opinion from a Nan-Gau magistrate, it wouldn't come across as GW attempting to make Cathay super speshul boys, it would come across as propaganda from a state loyalist that players could choose to believe or not, while both still engaging with the setting on the same level. The exact words could be the same, but the context would massively improve the overall impression.

>>95948123
What's with the mutants and Southlanders on the left?

Silverhelms or dragon princes? I'll eventually get both but one has to be done first.

>>95948042
Thanks here are my kitbashed captains

>>95948231
i'd assume dragon princes are more fun to paint.

>>95948030
>collations of in-universe writings
only the 6th edition ones

>>95947916
>is it likely GW would split up Chaos Warriors with AJ's for each gods worshippers, and as for the eventual Deamons would we get a main Deamons of Chaos AJ and then separate God specific books?
no, it's not likely, and demons are more likely to become units for the chaos warriors faction than to be back as an army by themselves

>>95947193 (OP)
>TQ
Painfully slowly assembling my Brets. Might do dorfs after them but not any time soon

>>95947916
>likely
in your impossible hypothetical it entirely depends on how well EC/WE/DG sales and AoS solo god sales. I personally am a fan of it as long as there's some models who look like the original chaos warriors iconic designs but I'm also a weirdo who wants them to split Iron Warriors and Night Lords away from CSM and make them renegade even if that means nothing more than an upgrade sprue that makes marines look more scavenged and less pristine but also not forced to use the CSM models

>>95947345
I'm planning on scratchbuilding a (damaged/besieged) fortified town at some point to act as a game board, but still nogaemz and working on my army atm. Will probably borrow heavily from Eric-sama and his Mordheim builds

>>95941826
>>95941837
I think when it comes to the timeframe, of when Miao Ying and Sigmar met, this guy makes an accurate assessment.

https://www.youtube.com/live/VUlSVwnKCvg?t=22240s

What lamp should I get for painting? Being turbo autistic about this

>>95948382
>6 hours and a half to read 12 pages and say "yes, the lore is bad"

>>95948391
The dude derailed a few times to talk about other stuff like Ogres, Lizardmen, TK and HElves.
But he does admit to being pleased with the fluff, and can't wait for the second Cathayan AJ.

>>95948386
An electric one, candles are bit hazardous and oil lamps a little too rustic.

>>95948386
I know the recommendation is 6500K for the light, but honestly if you only ever see the model in super warm/cold lighting it might be best to match your lamp to that so your paint job won't feel weird when you take it to new lighting

>>95948434
Chat clip that

>>95947193 (OP)
>Which army are you currently working on? Which army are you thinking about starting?
Got a old beastman AOS box for cheap
>10 gors
>10 bestigors
>3 dragon ogres
>1 shaman
Have to buy some more square bases tho

Making Cathay the best army numba one best powder best soldier best everything is funny since they're getting their asses beat against legacy factions in numerous battle reports

>>95948472
Almost like the hyperbolic reactions people are having is incorrect huh

Question regarding the rules.
If I cast pic related can the unit that's affected charge after they are transported?

>>95948233
They don't sell this griffon anymore right? I think it's the best looking one they've made sadly.

>>95947193 (OP)
>TQ
Working on my Troll Horde at the moment, picked up a Hag at the weekend but haven't got round to starting her yet.
Want to do Wolves of the Sea next, mainly because I want to build a terrain piece for the Warriors' Duel mechanic. Something along the lines of the Circle from the First Law series. Have a bunch of marauders with shields around a spot for the two fighters.

>>95948485
Huh, I'm kinda shocked it's not in high elves. Wonder if GW will start dribbling out kits like it to finish out armies or if we'll have to wait for next edition.

>>95948484
Sadly not. Conveyance spells are cast during Remaining Moves so it would be too late to declare a charge.

>>95948484
No. It's still very cool because it doesn't stop movement before or afterwards but it's just a positioning thing.

>>95948497
>>95948485

I got the two on a second hand website for 30€

maybe i should just sell these dark elves i got

unless anons can tell me about how they play in TOW

>>95948544
They're completely playable, but since they're a legacy army DE are generally underpowered compared to the main faction.

FAQ dropped!
https://www.warhammer-community.com/en-gb/articles/wgp83jlw/old-world-faq-and-errata-designers-notes/

>>95948544
Have you ever paired them up with a WoC allied detachment?
I might help your DElves.

>>95947247
Cool work anon, those are the sigmar raptadons right ? How do they compare to regulat old cold ones in size ?

>level 4 wizards are OP
>let's make spells as an entire class harder to cast!
Why can't they just do simple fixes, jesus. There's still little reason to take a level 2 and now bound spells are way more powerful. That plague of rust mask in Cathay looks insane now.

>>95948591
So basically I'm a retard for having a level 3 now? Or I suppose he has the same casting bonus as a level 2 but the dispel range of a level 4 so maybe not. What a needless overcomplication

>>95948569
Poison nerf real, but it's +2 to wound not +1. Cap of 3+ armor save from HW+S real, so chosen see no benefit from it. The Impetuous change is good but most of this stuff is amateurish-ish fixes IMO.

These have to be some of the weirdest and most pointless changes in the FAQ. I guess halberd demigryphs look better? I'm not sure who any of these are for.

>>95948594
I think making all spells harder to cast is just such a bad move. TOW casting values are already fairly high. It starts to make magic as a whole less predictable, and that starts to feel really random as to when something goes off or not.

Also any buff to casting is now way more significant. It's such a half-assed attempt at a 'fix'.

>>95948569
Poisoned attacks BTFO from auto wound to +2 to wound

lmao they nerfed ruby ring but cathay still out here with a PL3 bound plague of rust

>>95948569
>Page 48
>General of the Empire: Change the Leadership characteristic to ‘10’.
>Captain of the Empire: Change the Leadership characteristic to ‘9’.
>Page 57
>Empire State Troops: Add ‘Horde’ to the State Troops and Veteran State Troops lists of special rules.
>Page 60
>Greatsword: Change the Strength characteristic to ‘4’.
>Count’s Champion: Change the Strength characteristic to ‘4’.

>>95948615
>fix dragons pls
>OK we will remove one of the only things that can reliably kill dragons

>>95948618
>Empire State Troops: Add ‘Horde’ to the State Troops and Veteran State Troops lists of special rules.
That guy who was weirdly raging at me suggesting this BTFO. All good changes for Empire though.

>>95948594
You round up, so lvl2 and lvl4 exist only to have one more spell to cast than lvl1 and lvl2 respectively, otherwise they've got the same casting and dispelling bonus

>>95948601
Flails retaining some of their rules and modifiers past the first turn was always a retarded oversight

>completely meaningless changes to Bretonnian pegasi were accurate
>but also SURPRISE massive nerf to the falcon horn

>>95948627
They still retain AP-2 all the time.

>>95948616
wait, are bound spells' power levels not touched by the nerfs to wizard levels?

are cathay's items the only shit that can be cast with a +3 now?

>>95948621
Tbh not fussed about dragons I don't play against anyone that brings dragons but I'm sad I've lost cheap as fuck poisonous chaos warhounds

So time to spam level 1 daemonology wizards with a wizard staff I guess.

Nice, you can pick a siggie on the sisters. Again totally bizarre the Cathayan jade sentinel doesn't have these rules though.

>>95948633
>They still retain AP-2 all the time.
well fuck me and fuck that then

>>95948641
The last cope is that they're waiting for the hype sales of waacfags to calm down before dropping the nerfs

Actually sort of interesting? They have move through cover. You probably need some kind of speed boost spell still to put them in a position to charge, but pretty spicy if they do.

Oh my god I don't even care about the dragon being impetuous chaos knights FINALLY get counter charge like every other fucking cavalry unit in the game.

>>95948569
eh, it's something

So the beastman shaman AoI is fixed to just be a reliable casting bonus rather than rolling the dice on the chaos casino craps table all the time.

And the beastmen anti-flying banner is nerfed like the flying horn, leaving Cathay will the only automatic guaranteed always works anti-flying tech in the game. Every single anti-flyer thing is not one turn only, but Cathay is the only one that always works instead of you needing to take a Ld test. That'll keep those sky lanterns in check!

>>95948569

I like that infantry has gained a lot but I'm not thrilled by the prospect of Sv2+ Black Orcs fighting in 2 ranks.
Or 3+ RR1 Jade Warriors for 8pts either.

>>95948662
>Sv2+ Black Orcs
How do they get 2+? The jade warriors for sure look a lot better now, a big block of WS5 ones is a solid defensive unit.

>>95948618
Are greatswords now back on the menu?

>>95948664

Full plate
Shield
Parry

>>95948666
Probably not at 11ppm (13 with drilled).

>>95948669
Bruh it is insane to me you read the parry rules in the FAQ but somehow mentally wiped capped at 3+ from your brain.

>>95948615
FUCK

Drilled infantry units are potentially gonna go kinda crazy with that fight in two ranks thing. Doesn't this just make linehammer better, but it's double linehammer now?

>>95948675

Ima be real with you bro I didn't read past the first sentence.

>>95948615
>>95948676
Another example of a really shortsighted nerf to be honest.
>should we fix the units that are actually a problem?
>no let's just nerf poison so we don't have to worry about it

Really see no point in taking a spear on any infantry that can instead have HW+S now.

>>95948662
I'm kinda shitting myself about dwarves desu. Like previously it was just the hammerer brick you couldn't engage but now it's really hard to imagine engaging profitably with any of their units. And with anvils dispelling at +3 you won't be able to touch them with magic missiles.

>>95948676
>>95948680
Surely lizardmen will get a better rule for their venom, when they get reintroduced, their shooting doesn't work without that.

Right?!

>>95948680

The game was all kinds of fucked, I'm not surprised they're going for broad sweeps. Maybe fine-tuning balance can come after we have a functional magic phase and the most common unit type isn't complete ass.

>>95948688
I mean infantry are looking better there. A couple of extra points combat res does change the equation when they get charged by a monster or single character. And fighting in two ranks almost all of the time makes more resilient infantry look pretty good as bricks, stuff like dwarves and black orcs. They're still never going to charge anything but a big block of empire state troops has a good chance of winning on static CR now.

Just remove Witch Elves from the game. Jesus christ.

>>95948685
Still pretty anemic damage from the unit unless they go GWs, which means they don't have a 3+. Two ranks of 6-8 with GWs is pretty nice though.

>>95948701
Buddy, they already did. This just adds another rolling step to poison too. Crazy change.

There's like 4 infantry units in the game that can actually get to a 2+ with hand weapon shield and parry. Why wouldn't you just let them do it lmao they're all hyper elite units in the first place

>>95948705
Surely this means it's ok for the death cult to have MUDEROUS apply to their weapons now right?

>>95948715
>not playing with the renegade rules

>dwarf clansman wiggles his sword and shield
>is now as tough as an ironbreaker
>the ironbreaker is capped

>>95948677
Linehammer is limited on movement so only being within 4" on average allows you to make a supporting attack in the fighting rank.

>>95948719
I really do think blorcs were the reason they hard capped this. Rather than increase their points cost they just stopped anyone getting the 2+. I don't think it'd be broken on any other unit that can get it (off the top of my head: ironbreakers, infernal ironsworn, chaos chosen). Like yes they would clearly be very resilient, but those units are all more expensive than the 13pt blorc.

>>95947193 (OP)
Working on some chaos warriors, thinking about starting Cathay because I like the models and they're designed for whfb, unlike the newer AoS chaos stuff
But Cathays army roster is quite small, feels like they're lacking ranged options completely.

>Frenzy now only +1 attack on charge or Pursuit

FFFFUUUUUCCCKKK MY MARK OF KHORNE STOCKS ARE CRASHING JESUS WHY?????

>>95948717
>using glorified house rules to play and enjoy my army

>>95948739
Wow, I didn't notice that. That just kills MoK huh, especially because you're paying a premium for infantry marks.

"The Fighting Rank: Change the entry as follows:
‘When two opposing units are engaged in combat, any row
of models (be it a rank or file) in which one or more is in base
contact with the enemy is a ‘fighting rank’. Any model that is
within a fighting rank and within a number of inches equal
to its Movement of the enemy unit can fight. This represents
models closing in upon the foe.’"

dumb ESL here. what does this sentence about the movement characteristic mean? can my 4inch move skelletons now attack from the third and fourth row?
or does it mean both has to be true for a model to be able to fight? (being in the fighting rank and also within 4 inches)?

>>95948739
SELLSELLSELL

>>95948739
>>95948746
Again honestly a really bad change, you feel the thought process was:
>we can't keep frenzy unchanged, then if you charge a khorne infantry block you might take 24 great weapon attacks back!
When the actual solution is the unit has fucking frenzy, do not engage it and bait it around instead. it is supposed to be a unit of bloodthirsty killers so it is fine if they can bloodthirstily kill.

>>95948746
It's not a complete shit show if you are winning combat but defensively it is worthless now.

That said Chaos Knights got counter charge so in that sense it got better for them. Still hurts like a bitch for my marauders and warriors.

That said, IF my Warriors win combat, their follow up is going to be murderous. Still sucks fucking ass. First time frenzy got shit on this hard

>>95948569

Chaos knights got counter charge, makes them significantly better I think.

>>95948752
I think it's pretty bad at 2ppm now. It was already the best of the marks on infantry and already a questionable purchase. Remember you still lose frenzy if you lose a round of combat, and infantry really struggle to ever get the charge in TOW, so you probably don't have it on infantry even when you start winning combat.

I was looking at chosen because that's a lot of fucking attacks from a unit of 3x6 or whatever now but they're still just so fucking expensive.

>>95948755
It does. It was really silly they didn't have it and like boar boyz did.

Who was crying out for frenzy and poison to be nerfed?

>>95948764
It was me, my bad.

>if your infantry charge their infantry you get to fight in 1 rank and they get to fight in 2
????????????? so it's just a bad thing to charge infantry with infantry????

>>95948752
You literally get the same number of attacks as the opponent charging with frenzy lol, because you = 1 rank +1 attack and they = 2 ranks. It's retarded.

>>95948761

Forsaken fighting in two ranks could be pretty nasty.

>>95948747
Right now, unless you charged regular infantry has two fighting ranks. Units from these two ranks have to be within your movement to hit

two infantry units slowly inching closer to each other because neither wants to be the one to charge and give up their advantage lmao

>>95948769
Oh yeah, wow, 12D3 S4 AP-1 killing blow attacks or whatever.

>>95948768

I'm not an expert on medieval warfare, but from what I've read and heard, infantry was mostly used defensively (until the Swiss and their aggressive tactics came to the scene), as infantry holding their ground would be able to maintain their unit cohesion better, compared to footmen rushing to charge their enemy. Therefore the change makes sense to me.

>>95948773
Legitimately think we might see a 'can I initiate combat without charging' question in the next FAQ

>>95948764
GWfucking hates Wood Elves for so reason

As an infantrypilled wizardhater i support these changes

>>95948569

Characters still seem to be able to join skin wolves, isn't that an unfortunate omission?

>mfw dwarf slayers still M3 and no swiftstride
I just want to have fun with my naked dudes and not lose every game

>>95948761
>its pretty bad at 2ppm

I was using Chaos Warriors before these changes, im used to suboptimal choices.

That said, for Chaos Knights now gaining counter charge, its actually even stronger for them as barring a huge F Up on the charge, they're almost always getting the bonus.

Marauders aren't so bad as they got warband but you need to be super careful of positioning now. Warriors TECHNICALLY can use it. 3+ armour saves and 10 attacks if charged. Not bad. If they take the charge, if they win, then it kicks in. Also if they get the charge, in the 2 rank fighting, its gained more value if the charge hits.

>max copium

I am but, hear me out. Defensively, infantry now have an advantage. 10 attacks default, maybe 4-7 retaliating will shred the charging unit bad. The charging unit of infantry will get 5-7 attacks, max.

Chaos Warriors, if they charge, can get potentially 11-14 attacks if the rank is wide enough. With the 3+ save as well and if they win, they can meat grind down infantry blocks better than normal warriors with 1 attack.

>mfw all these changes

>>95948780
I mean that's fine but Warhammer is not really built for that in the same way as a historical wargame would be, and we do have medieval records of on-foot infantry charges (e.g. at the battle of Worringen).

>>95948769
Forsaken and any infantry NOT in base contact are capped to 1 supporting attack

>>95948792
>I am but, hear me out. Defensively, infantry now have an advantage. 10 attacks default, maybe 4-7 retaliating will shred the charging unit bad. The charging unit of infantry will get 5-7 attacks, max.
Yes I agree. If you don't have multi-attack cavalry you don't want to be charging.

>>95948797
But wouldn't they be considered to be in the fighting rank, as per the text? Why is it a supporting attack?

>>95948773
Can someone math out if the initiative bonus of charging makes up for the loss of a fighting rank? assuming two identical units with sword and shields clash?

>>95948794

I didn't say that it never happened, I wrote that infantry holding their ground would have an advantage compared to an attacking unit of infantry.

>>95948801
Because like infantry in the fighting rank but NOT in base to base can only make 1 attack.

>>95948794
Dude is right, look at the first half of Hastings. Normans got proper slaughtered charging uphill against mass shields UNTIL the Saxons broke formation.

>>95948772
okay, thanks.
would have been a bit over the top, otherwise.

>>95948739
This and the poison nerf basically condemns witch elves to just eye candy.
Wonder if waacfags will be selling them cheap now, they ain't too hot in AoS either.

>>95948805
Oof, that makes me like this change even less. Feels like it just punishes elite infantry even more.

>>95948802
It clearly won't on any equivalent unit. Hitting first doesn't even out getting twice the attacks.

Is the eternal guard worth it now with the new changes?

>>95948815
Poison was always overtuned but yes WE got hurt bad. But uf they get the charge, in the new meta, they might be the only infantry who can prevent a counter attack.

>>95948784
Wood Elves taking an insane number of blows this edition for sure.

>>95948828
No.

>elves player crying
that alone makes it a good update

>>95948805
So you still basically never want more than 1 rank of Forsaken and charging them into things is harder.

>>95948811

Or Varangians against Normans in Dyrrhachium.

>>95948832
shame that they have one of the better Battlion boxes as well

>>95948834
Elf players will endure.

Even Wild Riders looking kinda dodge with their zero save potentially going into 20 returning attacks - whatever they manage to kill.

>>95948835
Yes, essentially. Offensive infantry charges is now paramount to suicide unless, ironically, you have frenzy or at least 2 attacks default.

>>95948839
Shame the Varangians repeated the same mistake at hastings but ya, that counter to the norman charge was a feat unto itself.

>>95948835

They have a slightly faster movement than regular infantry and access to swiftstride. Impetuous is also slightly more manageable.

Tl;dr: infantry is just there to get shot and hold ground but at least that's an improvement to how they used to be.

>>95948853
Infantry is now an even better dragon killer than it was before

So if you charge spear infantry that's three ranks or still just two?
Because you can't use spears as you charge. Would be actually a handicap to pay extra to get nothing and lose out on +1 save.

>>95948853
makes sense with all the secondary objectives in the Match Play guide and the rules for occupying buildings coming in the second Cathay Arcane journal.

>>95948859

I think it's three ranks.

>>95948859
Yes. Fight in extra Rank now means 15 retalliatory attacks assuming 5 x 4 formation.

>>95948824
but you don't get to have twice the models that can fight back after the other unit has attacked first

Why isn't cathay grimdark when medieval china was grimdark? Heck, modern china is still grimdark seeing as it's just North Korea with money

>>95948859
>charged by spears
two rows of spears attack
>charging enemy with spears
three rows of spears attack

>>95948569
>wizard levels changes

remember when one of the main argument in defense of miao ying's overpowered rules was that she's not a lvl4 wizard while she's a dragon?

yeah, now it means she simply loses +1 to casting and dispelling instead of +2

>>95948869
GW's Sensitivity team thought the Chinese market wouldn't like Cathay to be Grimdark, so it would mean a loss of sales.

>>95948874
I mean the wizard changes are globally bad because they make everyone's change of casting spells unreliable. High magic looks awful now, just a comedy of errors as the 1000-year-old mages of High Saphery bumble and fuck up casting their signature magics.

If I run a dwarf list that is basically only handgunners, hammerers and cannons will that be a really bad idea that basically gets me auto tabled?

>still didn't faq the griffon banner

>>95948869
because it's fictional not historical

What is now the optimal frontage for an infantry block?

Pleased to see infantry get a buff but I don't think this really opens up options from what the game had already.

>>95948888
what you used to run/2. 6+ wide seems like an overkill now, unless you're running something cheap that max out the CR bonus

>>95948883

>>95948869
not enough space on the journal to delve into nuances and depths of their society, total war does have references to darker stuff going on here and there

the sensibility team or gw's writers might have considered it a racist depiction, so presenting the faction as if it aligns neatly with what would be his own propaganda can help selling it to the eastern market

one of the goal of the faction is to appear as a near-mythical exotic power, not just a simple human nation, which is why there's a greater focus on yin-yang philosophies than normal social and cultural dynamics


I don't like the presentation of the journal at all either, but again, other sources don't hide too much that cathay can be and is sketchy under the surface

>>95948888
6-8. Might not be much point going over 6 with bigger base sizes.

>>95948880
Everyone except skaven, it’s warpstone token time.

>>95948889
Spears actually getting used(my saurus warriors might be very fucking happy)

>>95948888
Odd number for volley fire, 6-8 wide unless you really want rank bonus.

So does this mean we are going to need mass infantry blocks like 8th?

>>95948885
>twisted helix genecultists.jpg

>>95948903
Aren't spears just worse now? You get less bonus attacks and trade a +1 to armor save for them. I guess saurus have pretty good attacks so 3 ranks might be worth it for them. With a 5 frontage you can either have 15 attacks with a 3+ or 20 attacks with a 5+. I feel I'd still rather save the point and have 15 with a 3+.

>>95948903
Think hand weapon is the way to go. It's 5 attacks per frontage vs 4, and you get ap and parry with hand weapon.

>>95948906
There's definitely mileage in some armies massing infantry. Empire can now get pretty absurd static CR so might legitimately want to run a unit of 60 state troops or something. Dwarves become very hard to dig out. But infantry still can't really perform offensively, and elite infantry are mostly still bad.

>>95948915
>>95948912
With spears you have the choice of both, especially since you can just swap weapons every round.

So you take the charge hw+s or speaes depending on ap, and then go for the spears in successive rounds provided you aren’t fighting cav, high I guess is majority of time.

Maybe spears aren’t great but can actually be used now.

>>95948918

I thought of a block of 20 chaos chosen with sword and board and full plate with the magic banner of -1 to hit. They would be joined with a lord or a champion with the mutation of -1 to hit. Very expensive brick, but would have good staying power and damage output.

trollhammer torpedo?

more like trollhammer bottle rocket. RIP

>>95948927

*-1 to hit against shooting attacks

I feel like all these changes have done is move my army into relying on my dragon even more, I didn't really like taking shades as Dark Elves and had big unit of WE led by a Hag as my second hammer along with my dragon, I'm not even sure my unit of cold ones will be able to go into an infantry block any more. Maybe I'm overreacting but it feels like I'm just going to be leaning on this stupid dragon crutch.

>>95948927
Is full plate worth it on this unit? You're giving them -2 to be hit by shooting anyway, and it provides no statistical advantage in HtH. So you're paying 2pts per model just to give them +1 armor save vs. shooting.

I was interested in chosen with these changes until anon reminded me models not in BtB are capped at 1 attack. This unit still only puts out 15 attacks as a result, and 10 when charging which will be matched by 10 from ordinary infantry in return.

Damn my welf list went from being bad to unplayable thanks gw

>>95948924
Maybe I missed it but I didn't see any changes to spears in the errata. Before taking spears was bad because you had to pay 1 point for what was a sidegrade rather than an upgrade. Now it seems to be 1 point for a downgrade. You still lose out on the AP (unless I missed something) but you also don't the new parry rule.

>>95948828
>come with hand weapons and spears
>can fight in 3 ranks due to spears

I think the best thing to do is
>are you going to go first?
>if so, use spears
>if not, use hand weapons and shields for +1 armour save for a 4+
a block of 20 eternal guard+character can all fight (3 ranks of 7) with 21 attacks at WS5

then theres guardians of talsyn who now have the special rules of parry....and parry...so they can get a 3+ armour save if they wish

>>95948940

I don't know honestly, 2+ armour save combined with a 6+ ward just looked juicy to me.

>>95948953
They don't get to a 2+. Parry is capped at a 3+. Heavy armor or full plate makes no difference for them when in combat.

>>95948947
>then theres guardians of talsyn who now have the special rules of parry....and parry...so they can get a 3+ armour save if they wish
That's very funny.

>>95948943
Attacking when not charging in 3 ranks vs 2 as per the ‘press of battle rule’ if you have spears.

But whether it outdoes +1 to armour save who knows.

>>95948958
>in 3 ranks vs 2 as per the ‘press of battle rule’ if you have spears.
yes that's the exact same as before where you got to attack in 2 ranks instead of 1 and that did not seem worth it to me
now it's even worse because you can't use the parry armor bonus

>>95948967
As anon said it ultimately depends on your initiative. Now that you can choose to use weapons at the start of each combat round and aren't locked it bringing spears and alternating between them and hand weapons is a viable strat

I guess on the basis that we're spending 400pts on a unit of infantry anyway maybe you just go chosen, full plate, great weapons, shields, icon of darkness, brazen collar on a champion, hero in the unit with diabolic splendor.

So 3+ vs. shooting, 3+ in combat with hw+s attacking S4 AP-1 or 4+ in combat attacking strike last S6 AP-2, and a 6++. The unit is -2 to be hit by shooting and has magic resistance (2). It's 500 fucking points but you were spending like 420 on it anyway, there might not be much point trying to shave things down.

>>95948957
the guardians also have 2 attacks base so 36 attacks at WS5 with spears

>>95948942
based

All the changes are very good, but they STILL haven't clarified exactly whether Lance's can be used after a pursuit move AND by stating that a counter-charge doesn't count as a charge roll they have made it so Lance's can't be used by counter-charging units making counter-charge COMPLETELY FUCKING USELESS

Elf sadness club.

>>95948977
How are we getting to 36? 7x2+7+7 would be 28, no? That genuinely isn't bad, they're like 20 points a model though right? And still melt to shooting.

>>95948982
>All the changes are very good
doubt.jpg

>>95948971
I still think saurus warriors look overcosted and spending an extra point per model for some limited utlity doesn't look appealing. The good news is that temple guards are (hopefully) going to be useful now and a viable alternative to skink spam.

Infantry should have had 2 fighting ranks even when charging. Cavalry should have had 2 fighting ranks as well, but you aren't ready for that yet.

>>95948986
7x2 first rank
7x2 second rank (counts as first rank)
7 rear rank

I dare you to charge my 10x4 skelleton block with spears.

>>95948990
What in these changes makes TG look better than saurus now?

>>95948996
It doesn't "count as first rank", it counts as in the fighting rank. Models not in base contact are still capped at 1 attack.

>run dwarves
>sit in the corner with a bunch of artillery pieces, hammerers, irondrakes, and an anvil
>if you charge hammerers you just get your dick kicked in by multiple ranks of 2a at initiative great weapons
>will be getting constantly plinked at from t1
>anvil will just completely shut off any magic
I don't think I'm going to enjoy the return of dwarf castles.

>>95949003
From what people are saying second rank for infantry only get one attack since they aren’t in b2b

>>95948975
>slaanesh halberds with enchanting aura now hit for 4 attacks per frontage

>>95949003
I mean this is a return to classic WHFB dwarf gameplay. Even when they were good they were never fun. But note they don't get 2A in multiple ranks, nobody does.

>>95949000
First Charge wasn't changed so sure! But for real a big ass brick should be scary to charge.

>>95949007
How the fuck are you getting 4 attacks?

>>95949006
I honestly think this is bad. I think elite infantry would have had a place if you got multiple attacks in the second rank, you can get scary numbers off some units.

>>95949002
>What in these changes makes TG look better than saurus now?
That infantry might be viable. Temple guards were better than saurus warriors already but nobody uses them because after paying the saurus warrior tax people spammed skinks as it was the only strong core unit for Lizardmen. Being able to switch between halberds and shields also seems like a more useful than switching between spears and shields.

>>95949008
>>95949006
Maybe just one hammerer unit then and thunderers or quarellers with great weapons to fill out the rest.

>>95949000
>30 WS2 S3 attacks
yeah sure

>>95949016
I feel like temple guard are still something you're gonna run in 2x5 or 2x6 but a block of no upgrades 15 or 20 saurus is actually quite hard to attack now.

>>95949021
>always hit on 3+

>Phoenix guard fucked over since they have special halberds they don’t get the change
Goddamnit

>MY FLAILS NERFED TO ONLY +2 STR ON CHARGE

Just got to breathe....breathe

>>95949003
This is basically how all the dwarf players at my club were playing against my Dark Elves any way. It became a thing of using all my units as chaff so that my dragon could make a charge and try and break infantry, it felt like playing 2 separate games where neither of us would really be interacting with each other outside of rolling for saves.

>>95949019
That's basically dorfs now. One unapproachable 600+ points brick of hammerers and a bunch of 5-10 man ranged units, although irondrakes are usually preferred thunderers and likely still will be, just without the torpedo now.

>>95949027
They... already were?

>>95949000
That shit already was scary with t3 cav.

Would it be worth it to use marauders in large blocks with sword&board and mark of nurgle, or is mark of chaos undecided a simply better upgrade?

>>95949033
No, they got the strength on the first round of combat. Now it's only if you charge.

>>95949025
Never thought I'd be sympathising with a traitor but here we are since my Dread Halberds are the same.

>>95949033
They were +2 strength in first round of combat. Now it's conditional on the charge. Which...actually if they win they can clean house.

>>95949037
Anon we're 18 months in. It's time to wake up. The chaos marks are terrible. You PAY points to get a WORSE rule than you get for FREE with undivided.

>>95949033
I think ~12-14 man great weapon thunderers / quarellers will just be how you fill core now.

>>95949045
What are you talking about, Nurgle is the best mark especially if you have a BSB already.

>>95949040
>>95949042
Wow, that's really bad. I guess they were worried about marauders fighting in 2 ranks? But that's awful, you just don't take flails except on horsemen.

>>95949045
In this new infantry defensive
bunker meta, I am going to stick my current stocks in Khorne thank you very much.

>virgin undivided get 5-6 attacks on charge
>chad Khorne gets 10-13 attacks on charge

>>95949057
Fine on knights, awful on infantry.

>>95949052
It syncs better with MoK now ironically for infantry marauders with flails

>>95949063
No it doesn't because planning for infantry to get the charge is a losing proposition in the first place.

>>95949023
From my experience temple guards simply outperform saurus warrios when compared to their costs. WS 3 and no option to take any magic standards is shit for warriors plus you have to pay extra if you want shieldwall and then if you add spears on top you get a weaker unit at a higher price. My current list with guards had 15 of them and 10 warriors. I will probably try 15 of each now but I wont be putting spears on them that's for sure.

>TQ
Halfway done with my WoC army (assembling). Thinking about starting either beastmen for dwarfs.

>>95949066
Please let me have this....just this one thing

I’m at work and haven’t gotten a chance to read the changes yet. Did point costs change? My lists were all 2,000 on the dot.

>>95949075
OK buddy. I guess, in the new meta where nobody wants to charge, your MoK marauders with flails WILL get the charge. The opponent WILL NOT notice that if he charges despite losing some attacks himself your guys lose 2 strength and 1 attack.

>>95949084
You're a mean fellow

>>95948982
>>95948988
the changes are neither good nor bad. they just don't matter. literally the best advice you can get for playing warhammer is
>"give zero fucks about what's overpowered, underpowered, balanced, whether it fits the army comp, or anything, because by the time you buy, assemble and paint that unit it will all have changed again anyhow. just build the army you think looks cool."
it's not stillmania or any stupid shit like that, just understanding the game rules have always been and will always be a fucking disaster. there will never be anything even vaguely resembling balance, internal or external. you just have to accept it, get on with your life, and enjoy the hobby by making the army you want.

the reason is simple: gw doesnt give a fuck about improving the game, just about selling minis. all that matters to them is churn. look at it: they've been working on this game for damn near 40 years, coming up on 10 editions soon, they've got millions of playtest games worth of data to draw on, they've rewritten every army at least half a dozen times, and gw employees have probably put hundreds of thousands of fucking work hours in to the warhammer rulebooks. if you had those kind of resources and your goal was to make an amazing tabletop game, how good would it be? pretty fucking good, I'll bet. and yet here we are decades later and warhammer's rules still have the balance (and typos) of an untested fan project. because they don't give a fuck. so you shouldn't either.

>>95948591
So are Wizards useless against Dwarfs now? Seems like a steep nerf against a faction that is already very miserable to cast spells against or around.

Honestly when I think about it the flail and MoK nerfs seem incredibly specifically targeted towards flail marauders with the new infantry rules. Would it really have been busted to just give them S5 attacks in 2 ranks? Is one of the rules designers frequently getting whipped by Wolves of the Sea or something?

>>95949087
I'm trying to be positive for you!

>>95949082
Dragon Ogres are 59 points now and Trolls became proper retarded again.

>>95949091
MEAN. FELLOW

Also yes. Blood Bowl suffered an elf wide knee cap nerf because one of the rules writers kept getting destroyed by wood elves.

Mean!!!

>>95949089
Honestly I think it's rough yeah. Casting is in general harder for everyone, dwarfs bringing an anvil and MR makes it really tough. I think these changes make dwarfs quite a bit better as an army, but really miserable to play against.

>>95949096
I think the flail and khorne nerfs are ridiculous desu, it's really the TOW guys who are being mean.

>>95949088
While I agree, I had to change my list out of purely stuff I wanted to take because I wasn't getting to engage in the game at all and was being shot off the table before I could do anything against people at my club.

>>95949111
That is true. Can't dispute that. What a mean bunch.

>elves and chaos players crying
the changes are getting better and better

>>95949129
Brother what?

Exalted Champions can get DRAGONS NOW!

Core Chaos Knights got counter charge.

>>95949097
I wish the Rune of Spellbreaking got a redo, then. It's a lot of value for 75 pts to just outright deny 3 spells from happening. Even the Power Scroll, which is sort of the opposite to the RoS, adds some risk to the caster since it ups the miscast chance. Oh well, it is what it is. I don't begrudge them being strong, I just don't like how much of a slog it is to fight against Dwarfs, as you said.

>>95949089
It's going to be tough getting spells off against them. I think perhaps GW forgot about them when making the new spellcasting rules which I otherwise don't hate too much. It was pretty easy and risk free for a lvl 4 to spam all their spells each turn before.

>>95949134
It's sad to see the glimmer of viability for chaos infantry and then see it get destroyed, but overall agree. The exalted champion on dragon is a nice workaround for the 500pts cap.

>>95949139
>>95949147
The casting changes are honestly just stupid. We should have just gone back to power dice.

>TQ
these n-words
halfway done with the archers; next up, five wildwood rangers and five NEWLY BUFFED eternal guard.

I don't even know what the fuss is all about regarding the FAQ, or why the people are saying elves got shafted. Never read the rules, never played a game but that will change as soon as my army is fully painted.
I'm just happy since I think my little guys look pretty.

>>95945037
That's big praise, anon, thank you.
I'm enjoying building and painting them. Maybe get a random hero and see if you like assembling and painting these knife ears, too?

>>95949149
Chaos Warriors at least got 3+ save in melee like before so it isn't all doom and gloom. I'd argue that actually hurts Chosen's value by comparison as they now both get the same melee save.

>>95949152
>We should have just gone back to power dice.
They can't really do that with an errata that's the entire magic system that would be reworked. They might do it if they ever make a 2nd edition.

>>95948872
>charged by spears, two rows of spears attack
That's wrong tho as you don't get a spear bonus on a charge and infantry doesn't get the new second rank buff on a charge either

Soooo are my chaos warriors better or worse after the FAQ?

>>95949163
Sword and board fights in two ranks at 3+ sv now

>>95949165
ideally you want to buy halberds and use your hand weapons if you're not going first

>>95948601
Chaos warriors will enjoy the halberd buff, especially given they can switch back to HWS the round after unless they need the strength and armour bane bonus.

So lets see if I get the rules right for the chinese troops
heavy armor + shield gives them a 4+ save, nothing special here
then they got their special rule which gives them +1 armor if they didn't charge, so 3+ save
and now you can parry with hand weapons, meaning they would go to 2+ if the rule didn't explicit say that it gives them 3+ at most

so what happens when someone hits them with an AP -1 weapon, is it 4+ then or does the hand weapon parry kick in and gives them back their 3+?

>>95949157
Yeah but that just means you don't pay for full plate on the chosen.

>>95949177
Will they? They never charge anyway.

>>95949179
>then they got their special rule which gives them +1 armor if they didn't charge, so 3+ save
the special rules lets them reroll saverolls of 1.

>>95949179
>then they got their special rule which gives them +1 armor if they didn't charge, so 3+ save
The special rule lets them reroll 1s to save. They are 3+ rerolling 1s in combat. They would be 4+ rerolling 1s against AP-1.

>>95949190
>>95949192
thanks, mixed that rule up with something else

yeah, I think im starting undivided or slaanesh WoC

or khorne heralds of darkness

Guess I'm mothballing my Dark Elves another year and continuing to play other games.

>>95948869
It is? Its still a feudal kingdom where peasants are practically slaves and war fodder for their lords, doubtless shitloads of chinks are snuffed defending and rebuilding those big walls alone

>>95949156
"N-word" is the hallmark of cucks and cowards. Just say "nigger" and eat the risk of being called a racist, or if you don't wanna, don't use it in the first place.

>>95949218
Feels

>>95949218
its not a proper faction anyway

>>95948940
Chosen having full plate is one of the things that makes them actually viable even before this (that and the extra attack) vs warriors who are marginally less crap in some areas now. Theres no reason not to take the full plate especially if you were giving them great weapons.

>>95948957
Chosen with full plate and HWS effectively dont get any armour bonus from the parry vs AP-. But they will gain the benefit from the parry as soon as any AP occurs. AP-1 would knock their save to 4+ which they then get the parry bonus from.

Unless the order says this doesnt work that is.

>>95949233
Right, but in this specific situation full plate is giving them +1 to save vs. shooting attacks on a unit which is very unlikely to be shot anyway because shooting attacks are -2 to hit it. Is that worth 2ppm? It makes no difference to their in-combat save, which is a 3+ with full plate or with heavy armor.

>>95949203
Do something unusual that gives you the freedom of drawing from both aesthetics and themes

A chaos warband devoted to the human interpretation of khaine

What is this parry mechanic yous are talking about

>>95949232
Well GW has done everything it can to make me not come back to the game.

>>95949246
When using hand weapon and shield you get +1 to armour save up to a maximum of 3+

>>95949242
Sadly I don't think it works like this. The armor is flat capped at 3+, which is then modifier by AP. You don't get to retroactively boost the armor after AP.

>>95949246
New FAQ. Hand weapon and shield now adds a +1 to armour saves in melee.

>>95949246
>>95949252
Only applies to Infantry and Heavy Infantry

>>95949049
Anon Nurgle was the worst mark by far. I used on Chosen and its absolutely shit. MoT even if you dont have sorcerers gives magic resist and flamign weapons to kill trolls etc. MoS is good but not worth 2pts, MoK WAS good now its shite. MoN is basically throwing away points as it relies on the other guys dice rolls to be 6s and was only good for fucking over poison, which is crap now. If it was what it was in old editions with -1 to hit then it would still be great but its not. Its crap. Even the now also crap MoK is better as you at least can actively gain something from it.

So Parry is on TOP of the normal armor bonus it grants? Infantry with light armor, sword and shield enjoy a 4+ in melee now?

>>95949302
Lmao yes. Say hello to might armoured Skinks

>>95947193 (OP)
>Which army are you currently working on?
I had a 1,5-year break from WFB(6th ed). I didn't paint anything for it and didn't play any games. For whatever reason, I was consumed by 3rd ed 40k and 1st ed of WM&H. But now I'm back working on my Stirland. Already painted a few more spearmen, another captain, and a mortar.

>>95949308
Skinks will lose combat and flee anyway. It doesn't count for ranged where they might have a use for it.

>Empire General and Captain +1 LD each
SIGMAR'S SONS ARE THE BRAVEST

>Greatswords +1S
Oh yeah they're going to chop up some big boyz

>>95948569
>All these infantry changes
Holy FUCK, Skaven bros I think we might be eating good. Getting -2 AP on charges with halberds might actually save Stormvermin from being utter dogshit tier.

>>95949318
I've also made some barricades and planned additional ruins to play some scenarios from Generals Compendium.

James is out of his god damn mind if he thought I was going to rush to buy more minis and support his game after reading the absolute shitfest that the rules changes were.

Damn does this mean State Troops can get their rank bonus pumped all the way to +6 now

>>95949323
You on the spectrum or did you seriously think I was suggesting skinks are useful in melee?

>>95949329
You never want to charge as infantry because you don't get the second rank attacks.

>challenge rule change
holy shit get fucked dragons

>>95949362
Chargers will still enjoy the benefits of initiative bonus, you're not going to have two armies of infantry staring eachother down because they both want the extra rank so badly

>>95949337
This calls for a video of a burning dark elf army to send a message IMO

>>95949379
You're literally going to have exactly that.

Are greatswords good now?

>>95949383
Send the army to me, I'll take care of it

>>95949362
Wait have I been playing wrong? halberds don't have supporting weapons so the front rank was always the only ones available for combat

>>95949398
No. Maybe a 7 wide unit that gets charged is decent.

>>95949390
I mean, maybe if it's 1 block vs 1 block but there's probably going to be some kind of impetus on the battlefield for one side or the other to charge.

>>95949383
Unfortunately I never got around to making my DElf army for TOW yet so I haven't one to burn. Me losing my motivation to make one will just have to suffice.

>>95948569
I think this means I won't play TOW until the second edition.

>>95949244
i got my sorc lord already, have to finish painting him up

honestly might keep him level 3 now, he still gets a +2 to cast like a level 4

>>95949379
If you have an infantry vs infantry fight the charging unit gets the Int bonus but the defending unit gets to fight in two ranks (three if they have spears). Unless your initiative allows you to strike first AND wipe most of their front rank up you have a whole bunch of attacks coming at you.
You will absolutely see blocks of infantry dancing around each other.

>>95949423
Nah, chaos warriors aren't going to give a shit about a rank or two of S3 attacks stabbing back at them, I pity the pussy player who acts like that

>>95949404
You were playing it doubly wrong. Not only halberds not have supporting weapon, supporting weapons themselves don't provide a bonus on the charge (unless they are throwing spears).

>>95948569
>infantry rising
>dragons eating shit
>magic eating shit
>empire getting fucking buffed
what am I missing?

Rolled 3, 1, 5, 4, 2, 6, 1, 5, 5, 2, 4, 2 = 40 (12d6)

>>95949428
rolling my 12 greatsword attacks back at your chaos warrior unit after you killed 3 on the charge

>>95949437
Saurus move from being dogshit to actually playable. Skinks and WE catching strays because of tournament players abusing poison.

>A 5x5 brick of Saurus with clubs and board gets 20 AP-1 attacks and a 3+armour save.
BOK-BOK FUCKERS!

Rolled 6, 1, 1, 4, 6, 2 = 20 (6d6)

>>95949441
Rolling to wound. 6+ saves if you're sword-and-boarding, otherwise no save.

>>95949444
The consecutive wood elf nerfs are brutal. Even their cav and dragon took a hit here IMO because they have no armour save to speak of.

>>95949445
No it doesn't. It gets 15 attacks.

>>95949441
Goalpost shifting a bit with greatswords, but it is fitting for THEM to be good at chopping up chaos warriors

>>95949445
They get 15 - only base to base contact get to use all attacks, otherwise you are capped to 1A per model.

But BOK-BOK regardless mofos

>>95949434
>>95949404
Normal Halberds (i.e what Stormvermin use) don't have fight in extra rank. The only Halberds I'm aware that have this rule are the Dread Halberds that Black Guards use

>>95949451
I'm just illustrating a scenario wherein you will be likely to win the combat if you get charged but lose it if you charge. It's a bit dumb.

>>95949445
TG also getting a buff from the extra rank and being able to freely change between HW and Halberds.

>>95949455
>>95949434
Thats what I thought. Unless your charging into something like spears, doesn't that make Stormvermin pretty good now with -2AP on charges with their already high speed and initiative? They're maybe still a little over costed but now I don't have to feel so bad about adding them to my list for fluff reasons.

Already we're edging closer and closer to give up this 'fighting rank' wank and go back to fighting in two tanks as normal, thank fuck

Empire can basically make an immovable brick of state troops with the griffon banner and a war banner BSB in the unit. CR of +6 from ranks, +1 standard, +1 BSB, +1 war banner, +1 close order, +1 outnumbering. Static combat resolution of +11, although you lose 6 of it if you get First Charge'd which will be pretty common.

I do think you could do worse than having a big block of state troops and a reasonably sized block of greatswords in Empire now, which probably makes a lot of Empire players happy.

Does this make WElfs an unplayable army??

>Aspiring Champion can bow take Daemonic Mount

OK I AM ALL ON BOARD! I CAN USE MY ARBAAL AT 500

>>95949467
I think that really depends on the survivability of whatever you are charging. You're effectively rolling a dice - if you can kill enough of them to not matter than yes. If you fail to do so you're gonna get bonked hard.

>>95949486
It means even the stuff you were forced into doing has become less good.

>>95949486
just run your 19 point S3 T3 infantry bro

>>95949485
Sounds like more of how the army should function.

>>95949485
FORM A RING OF STEEL

are 60 jade warrior enough?

>>95949498
>the army should function by automatically winning combat

>Buffs for halberds and hand-weapon/shield right as GW release the army with a mainstay of halberd and sword/shield
Wooow how about that

>>95949497
>>95949496
Killing myself

>>95949546
>cathay gets +3 to cast their bound spells on alchemical masks and jade sentinels

>everyone else is capped at +2

>>95949563
yeah that's fucking funny, cathayan bound items now stronger than the mightiest wizards

What do you guys think of this 1k list with the new changes? Don't really like running characters, prefer to stick with combined arms stuff.

53 - Captain of the Empire, Shield, General, Full Plate Armour
45 - Engineer
70 - 10 State Missile Troops, Crossbow, Detachment
70 - 10 State Missile Troops, Crossbow, Detachment
205 - 20 Veteran State Troops, Sergeant, Standard Bearer, Griffon Standard, Musician
174 - 14 Empire Greatswords, Count's Champion, Standard Bearer, Musician
105 - 5 Empire Road Wardens, Brace of Pistols, Feigned Flight
157 - 5 Inner Circle Knights, Lance, Inner Circle Preceptor
120 - Helblaster Volley Gun

>>95949444
Before
>A 5x2 block of Saurus get 10 attacks, regular infantry get 5, Saurus get twice the attacks and are overpriced and not worth it.
Now
>A 5x2 block of Saurus get 15 attacks, regular infantry get 10, Saurus get 50% more attacks and are totally somehow worth it now?
Their value has honestly gone down if anything. Skinks went from the only good unit in the army, to just as bad as everything else.

>>95949573
I think you need to double the size of that griffon banner unit.

>>95949587
Getting the saurus to a 3+ is nice.

The age of Infantry is upon us!
>FUCK DRAGONS
>FUCK MONSTERS
Elves are officially shitting, pissing and cumming until the next FAQ in a year.

>>95949599
Skaven are still dogshit tho

do you consider miao ying still too powerful for casual matches with these changes?

>>95949606
They're ever so slightly better so I'll take whatever crumbs I can get.

>>95949611
she's MORE powerful than previously assumed, due to these changes, relatively to the previous meta.

>>95949540
where did I say that motherfucker? That's a whole brand new sentence.

>>95949573
Be conscious most people will have units capped at 25%

>>95949646
>where did I say that motherfucker?
here >>95949498 when you replied with that to >>95949485

So does an infantry with plate and a shield effectively ignore the first point of AP in attacks swinging at them, or do they basically just not get any benefit from this new rule

>>95949587
Nah. Did you miss the other infantry changes? They get a 3+ save. They get the other infantry bonuses like outnumber. Also if you are running them in 5 frontage that's a you problem.

>>95949619
The only thing Ratmen and Lizboys agree on - being slightly less shit is a wonderful feeling.

>>95949651
What do you mean by that? The state troop block is 205

>>95949619
The buffs that help Skaven help are more-or-less universal to everyone else so it evens out. OTOH the nerf to casting rolls and poison hurts Skaven a lot since magic and slingers were all we had for ranged combat. On the whole we end up losing more than we "gained". It's pretty grim.

>>95949662

I think they'll ignore the first point of AP.

>>95949658
Did brainrot completely erode your reading comprehension ability?

>>95949546
Post public GW are a team of completely transparent bastards. Nothing new, sadly.

>>95949662
you cannot go lower than 2+ before modifiers
you don't recalculate your armour bonus after modifiers

>>95949678
I can't read...but otherwise looks fine.

>>95948957
The parry is only with asrai spears I thought?

>>95949676
Fingers crossed we will win a game thats not just against each other one day

>>95949681
Personally I think Skaven infantry is actually pretty good on paper. They're cheap and not completely useless, its just that TOW for the longest time really benefitted monsters. Consider the fact that clan rats are 7pts per model with thrusting spears and shields - with all these new changes I actually think people might actually second guess running big guys into our blocks.

>>95949699
Thanks. Realized I forgot to swap to handguns, so made that change and had to drop one of the inner circle knights, but was able to give the engineer a sniper rifle too with a couple leftover points. Seems like a fun list.

Does Regeneration now work like Feel No Pain from 40k? You roll for each wound?
If a multiple damage weapon does 3 wounds am I rolling once or thrice?

>>95949676
>being slightly less shit
I don't think you understand how important poisoned attacks are to lizardmen

>>95949665
I'm just comparing them to other infantry, who also got the parry bonus. The 5v2 was just for the example, but they lose even more potential attacks if you go too wide because then they can't even make use of their 2 attacks if they're not in base contact.

>>95949641
really? how so? I thought dragons did get a nerf in general

>>95949715
They're 6ppm
4 base +2 for shield/spear
You don't get the +1 in combat if you use a shield though, anon

>>95949741
>>95949715
I meant shield+spear

>>95949715
>Personally I think Skaven infantry is actually pretty good on paper.
Jesus I'd say they are pretty amazing looking at them compared to my Dark Elves warriors.

>>95949731
Them being worse than before would hold true only if they were allowed to fight other infantry which is not the case. In a meta where infantry is better they are automatically better. Infantry is objectively better across the board.

Did the Bret changes actually accomplish anything?
They still have the insane axe

>>95949733
The whole faq is a cathay buff.
It's unnerving how much they suck up to the chinesium factory, is tencent about to buy them?

>>95949611
She's definitely weaker. Her casting got less reliable and she has to be more careful in what fights she picks.

>>95947916
Why are people so stuck on this idea of monogod armies getting books entirely dedicated to them? That's not how it works in Fantasy! That's never been how it works! You could play a monogod army just fine in every edition prior to TOW with just the one (or 2-3, in 6th) army book. Stop it with this multi-book army splintering nonsense! They already tried that in 7th and it was shit!

So Counter Charge is basically useless now

>>95948634
No it's a change to the core roles of casting

>>95949769
What utter bullshit, her spells did not get harder, she's as good as a level 4 in dragon form, and the changes to dragons don't effect her but effect the things that could go toe to toe with her
The real question for you is why won't you tell your handlers to faq Orion to 355pts??

>>95949715
Anon, I hope so. I'm not so hopeful but things could play out differently when I sit down and all the rules changes come together. I have two armies and both of them rely on lots of cheap and shitty units with spears because that's the aesthetic I find appealing. Yeah, I'm a Skaven and Goblin player.

>>95949748
Nta but what's so bad bout DE infantry?

>>95949783
How so?

>>95949794
The warriors aren't really bad on their own but clanrats just having 1 less WS for half the price while having horde and warband was pretty crazy for me to see.

>>95949795
It doesn't count as a charge roll
If I'm not mistaken that means you just move forward and get no bonus so are still hit first. You're just d3+1 inches forward

>>95949802
The rules for counter charge explicitly say both units are considered to have charged this turn.

>>95949810
Then what does it not counting as a charge roll accomplish?

>>95948569
As a wood elf player I see these changes and go...meh. poison sucks but blocks of infantry returning benefits us. Our dragon lord was always squishy. Maybe guardians of Talysin not 100% shit. Dyrads got a pinch better. Sisters unfucked.
However our damage dealers wardancers and wild riders all much more likely to get slaughtered on the return vs infantry. Will take multiple charges or turns of whittling down which the MP book also works against. Not sure how we even operate here. Also glade riders are overcooked even more.
But Orion is still a huge chump, our items shit, and in general this edition is just one pain train. Whatever.

>>95949818
My guess would be, if you had some sort of magic item or other ability that interacted with charge rolls, you would not be able to use it with counter charge. For instance Warband would let you reroll a charge roll, but not a counter charge roll.

I don't believe it affects the initiative either, as the rules say nothing about the charge roll and just "full inch moved". So you're still getting +2 to +3 initiative off a counter charge.

>>95948686
>when they get reintroduced

>>95949818
It is not a charge ROLL meaning you can't reroll it. You still count as having charged.

>>95948739
Fucking, what? Huh? Why the hell would they change Frenzy!? It's already too damn risky to take on anything that can move quickly, now it's just complete garbage on infantry too! Did they think flail marauders were actually getting charges off? They have a 10" declarable charge range! I've only ever managed to get land three charges with my marauders and that was only after playing extremely carefully. Even when they got charged, the survivors (when there were any, which wasn't often) being able to attack twice made up for it. Now they're just useless and so are my warriors of Khorne.

Is it just me or does frenzy seem pretty shit now?

So not getting 2 ranks on the charge is kind of interesting, does this mean infantry won't want to charge enemy infantry, or is still worth if the I bonus has to attacking first?

>>95949853
I am 95% convinced one of the TOW writers keeps getting beaten by WoC and intentionally excluded marauders from maximizing their gains under these new infantry rules. It's too specific. They are the only units which would simultaneously benefit from flails and frenzy, both of which got targeted nerfs.

>>95949854
Yes, it's really quite bad. It's only good on stuff like chaos knights which will be charging/counter-charging anyway. It not providing any counter-punch to a charge is just silly IMO, I get the frothing-at-the-mouth crazies calming down after they get beaten, but they're still going to be pretty hype at the moment you charge into them.

>>95949834
>>95949851
Cool
>>95949854
It's shit now, plague monks go back on the shelf

>>95949862
It really depends on the matchup

>>95949853
I'm gonna keep using them anon. Even if you may lose hope in them, I have not. Besides, it was because of you i stayed the course, not gonna get disheartened now.

After using flail marauders I sort of see the issue to be honest.

>>95949862
Most of the time it's not going to be worth. You're happy running chaos chosen into generic state troops or clanrats or whatever, but even stuff like black orcs, greatswords or any dwarf unit is going to get dicey. I think it's a real misstep in the new rules, it should have just been two ranks of fighting rank in all situations.

>>95949727
Anyone?

>>95949880
They die to anything at all and you need a screen to prevent them being baited, it's fine for them to actually do damage.

>>95949727
thats how I understand it

>>95949788
>she's as good as a level 4 in dragon form

No she isn't? She's as good as a level 1

>>95949882
Yes actually, as far as I can see. That's gonna get weird for combat resolution.

>>95949889
I know, i mean im on max copium premium XXXX but i will still take it to stop panic attacks or osych tests.

>>95949890
damn

>>95949894
He's counting her +1 to cast which she only gets within 12" of another cathayan wizard.

>>95949900
Brother you reroll those with undivided anyway. You have warband, you're leadership 9 or 10.

>>95949894
She is level 3 so effectively +2 (round up) to cast like a level 4, potentially up to +3 thanksnto faction rule
Kys shillfaggot

>>95949881
My instinct is to agree, but it does seem potentially interesting if infantry really does have this clear role as charge recievers, and creates more depth than just wanting the charge all the time.

>>95949901
They snuck a sneaky seed of rebirth buff in there huh.

>>95949908
She's level 2 as a dragon.

>>95949894
>She's as good as a level 1
nope, because she still knows all of her spells


instead of losing 2 points when casting she loses only 1 now

>>95949908
retard

>>95949910
Clearly they going for hammer and anvil where
>infantry holds with warmachines
>big stuff or high attack infantry charges
As a sort of very basic and generalized way the game should operate between 2 armies

are spell familiars still worth it now?

>>95949905
that +1 (and all other +1) sources are now way more powerful, aren't they?

>>95949905
I am 100% not shitting you, in my first TOW battle, my undivided chaos warriors fragged up a LD8++ test. Super unlikely I know but rather a 0% chance of fleeing than a low chance

>>95949910
I think having 2 ranks allows for the defensive tech without negating being able to use infantry offensively. Stuff like >>95949485 in the dwarf matchup is just going to be ridiculous, for example. They're not going to charge you and you're not going to charge them, so it's all going to be decided on the artillery duel and then whoever loses packs up and goes home.

>>95949920
>high attack infantry
high attack infantry still want to be on the receiving end of a charge

>>95949920
I think that's reasonable, and it gives units like empire halberds a much clearer purpose to exist. With the magic changes making hero level wizards viable now too, I think infantry brick with a hero wizard will be something you really consider where before that was total dogwater.

>>95949912
Ah yes
Still +2
Kys shill
>>95949914
You too faggot release yourself from the game and world. No one's going to gaslight us into thinking Cathay isn't broken shit
>best anti fly banner
>jade warriors now hold even better
And to think you tried to bullshit us into saying its a bad infantry.

>>95949921
I need to actually play with magic to get a sense of how bad the nerfs are. Battle Magic still seems fine. Daemonology and High Magic are not looking great.

>>95949931
I'm thinking stuff with frenzy or furious charge.

>>95949931
ideally, but I think what it means is that units like chosen are no longer "really good if you get the charge, but fucking useless otherwise" are now just really good period, as super heavy infantry should be.

Although it does make units like blorcs that were already pretty good options potentialy degenerate.

>>95949862
Depends on if your infantry is an anvil or hammer anon.
I’ll still be charging shit with my big combat Rez skaven clanrats block.
I won’t be charging shit with my skeleton warriora(who are looking nice)

The real question is what does this mean for my hero, giant rats.

>>95948587
Yep, thanks. They seem pretty damn close honestly, maybe a touch taller due to dynamic poses, but then skinks are shorter.
I’ll upload a picture next to my other saurus cold ones tomorrow so you can see. Since I finished the bastards a few hours back but it’s too chilly Rn.

>>95948652
Jokes on you, cold one cav don’t have it. Same with black knights.

>>95949933
angry faggot

>>95949920
It's still very tough for infantry to actually get a charge. I think penalising it even more than it already is just via movement is a mistake.

>>95949932
>With the magic changes making hero level wizards viable now too
I would disagree with this. I have zero interest in taking a hero level wizard now that magic as a whole got harder to cast. It's absolutely vital to maximize casting modifiers.

>>95949948
>Jokes on you, cold one cav don’t have it. Same with black knights.
>Legends counting for anything
lol

>>95949947
I kind of think given a full unit costs somewhere between 400 and 600 points chaos chosen warriors should be able to charge anything in the game. The rules changes here enable them to charge regular infantry, but not other - and less expensive - elite infantry.

>>95949941
You need to factor in the infantry buffs as a buff to all buff spells though. Demonic vessles is now a WMD on the right target

>>95949953
just ignore him. he thinks that everyone that likes cathay is the same person.

There's still just a big thing where infantry are so slow that like how do you force your opponent to interact with you.

>>95949968
It's literally just the same. It doesn't allow the second fighting rank to make more than 1 attack.

So wood elves and warriors of chaos are just dogshit now? My two armies? Of course they go to the shitter. I already didn’t want to play after seeing Cathay.

>>95949954
I think magic is much easier to cast for level 2s than it was because they don't have a +4 dispell breathing down their neck, and most high casting spell value spells have had their casting valued lowered.

>>95949948
I'll be using Raptadons for Cold Ones too. Are you planning on swapping the AoS slop lances for spears?

>>95949978
Good, every WoC player I have ever vs'd was an insufferable WAAC faggot.

>>95949953
Retarded nigger.
>>95949971
It's an anonymous image board. Whether you're the same faggot shill, act like a faggot shill, or are merely like minded a faggot shill, the solution is the same: kys for being a waste of text. Cathay will be shit on by almost everyone for being grossly OP and you can't stop it no matter how hard you shill.

>>95949978
WoC seem fine, just different. Flail MoK marauders got hit but MoK knights got way better. The exalted champion can get a dragon now. There might be mileage in infantry blocks.

>>95949973
What am I missing that restricts the second rank to 1 attack?

>>95949978
Wood elves weren't doing numbers before and this hurts most our popular units. Other than sisters and hopefully more infantry blocks to shoot/fight, this is another L in a consistent series of L for woodies this edition.

>>95949999
Fighting rank or not, units not in base-to-base contact only ever make 1 attack.

>>95949973
>how do you force your opponent to interact with you
march column in front of them, force them to charge you, the when you fall back in good order rearrange into a better combat unit.

you'll never want to charge anyway and outnumbering and shield bonus count even when you're not in combat order

>>95949999
page 146

>>95949999
>>95949973
I too want to know. 42 Storvermin attacks sounds like a lot of fun.

>>95950010
Right but, they're not going to charge you.

>>95949990
True, same for dark elves and vampires.

>>95950023
Shoot them

>>95949994
but its not op. maybe mid-tier at best

>>95950023
and what are they going to do? lose 2 turns awkwardly pivoting around you?

>>95950025
Dark Elves can WAAC?

>>95950023
They eventually have to unless your just want to posture your armies for 5 turns

>>95950031
They're also keeping your unit out of the game in this staring match.

>>95950036
Half of ancient battles involve both sides lining up for battle in an advantageous place and neither accepting battle for weeks

>>95950030
Weak bait is weak.
>>95950031
I'd imagine shooting may matter more now as forcing the opponent to take damage for not charging should be a factor in deciding to plunge in or sit it out.

>>95950049
And now the realism of ancient battles will be reflected in Warhammer Fantasy.

>>95950036
actually fighting is inelegant
me and my bros compete by seeing who can perform the most aesthetically pleasing manoeuvres whilst traversing the battlefield

Just charge two units at the enemy's 1 if you're going to be such a bitch about the second rank

>>95950051
This is actually a good point. Why would I run state troops when I could just run a line of 40 handgunners in 2x20. If they charge I stand and shoot, depleting the single rank they get to attack with. Then I get to attack back with somewhere between 20-40 attacks.

While you guys have your rule book handy I would just like to say I really the drawing on page 148

>>95950061
Yes because I have exactly twice the number of units in the enemy army.

>>95950066
because s3 hand weapon attacks still dont do anything at all

I played a game today and we casually talked about the fluff of our guys. My opponent was really nice but when he picked up my master assassin he commented on it's design and colour scheme since it is wildy different from the rest of my army. I just said 'Haha he's from another clan and he's being paid to fight for me'. He didn't think too much about it but the truth was I have a fursona which is a gutter runner and I modeled and painted him just like my ref sheet.

I'm such a faggot it's unreal.

>>95950067
It is a nice drawing

>>95950101
Was not expecting the twist here. Post assassin.

>>95949988
Yeah, this is still a wip picnic but you can see what I did.
I cut the arceostar thunderclubber or whatever the fuck it’s called off at the haft, and drilled into the large wristguard on the lance I holes exactly the size of saurus warrior spears. I then attached these spears to the hafts.
Worked pretty cool. Pretty sure I let a guy or two hold the javelins the kit comes with as flavour >>95948587
Here anon, scales pretty good. Raptors have longer tails, still fit on old cav bases and easily rank up though.

>>95950101
We’ll post him then anon, what loadout did you use? I haven’t had much success with my assassins. If you’ve cracked how to make asasassins not absolutely godawful you can have whatever fursona you want.

>>95950101
You're a fag if you don't post the model or fursona to be mocked.

>>95950067
This one?

>>95950101
Skaven might unironically be the worst fantasy race to make a sona out of
Hide your red flags better

>>95950124
yea :)

>>95949880
I am deeply sorry if I am the reason we're both getting screwed by this, anon. I find this change to be completely nonsensical. Reducing Frenzy to being nothing more than a slightly altered Furious Charge is a terrible idea. I know people are just going to call me a complainer, but these changes will just force chaos armies to rely even more on their dragons. None of the marks are actually worth taking on regiments (2ppm buys you drilled, man!), the niche but powerful infantry options you had are now completely irrelevant, the parry save doesn't actually help you when you need it the most (think about it! When do most of the wounds inflicted upon a chaos army happen? It's not during melee combat, now is it?), and the changes to how wizard levels work are actually frankly very welcome, I was tired of always being forced to run Daemonology. However, your magic isn't reliable anymore (good, I preferred magic in 6th by a lot, but still.), so you can't rely on Steed of Shadows anymore to minimize how many of your boys would get shot to death.
Hell, exalted champions being able to ride chaos dragons means we will now see lists with 2 fighty dragons! Possibly even 3 with the warpfire dragon! What a stupid change! And the changes to wizards mean this might actually be viable!.

Quite happy that the second rank being a fighting rank is only when not charging. If it was always then Infantry would just be better than cav overall and there would never be a reason to not just charge in directly.

>>95948398
>But he does admit to being pleased with the fluff
Only because he's coping about it being biased in-setting propaganda and not the straight faced omniscient narration it actually is.

I think infantry will still want the charge because then the fight occurs closer to the opponents side, which is usually advantageous, and the iniative bonus and extra rank will cancel out in most cases, it's not like spears which do the same thing right now are something that really changes the game and matters (granted no powerful units really have access to spears)

>>95950156
Yeah any Infantry that is somewhat kill-y will want to get the charge still. It just won't make it the auto-choice (as it was for even anvils)

Remember this is also coming with a big mission pack full of stuff about sitting on objectives and brawling on them, so if you use those rules which feels like what they're designing around, you'll be forcing your opponent to interact with you just by marching up to the objective.

BROS
think about it
throwing spears on orc big uns
always fighting in two ranks

>>95950167
3 rank fighting makes big units with spears potentially interesting platorms for buff spells

>>95949931
Not glass cannon infantry like gardeners or gors

>>95950144
Dragons cannot now win combat charging infantry front on due to the challenge changes.

>>95950156
It should be really obvious just doing a run through of the maths striking first with 5 attacks is not as good as getting 5 extra attacks for any vaguely equivalent units. The ‘initiative bonus cancels out the second rank’ is being repeated so often ITT it feels like one of the designers shilling cope.

>>95950166
No I will just take a cheaper and larger unit and also place it on the objective.

>>95950182
yeah but gardeners are fucking broken anyway, seeds of destruction is a disgusting special rule

>>95950186
So right now if you were playing the game you wouldn't charge a unit of skeleton spears with your unit of skeletons with hand weapons because the extra rank is so scary?

>>95950194
Skeletons never break or do damage either way so this seems like a bad unit to use as a comparison.

>>95949954
>I would disagree with this. I have zero interest in taking a hero level wizard now that magic as a whole got harder to cast. It's absolutely vital to maximize casting modifiers.

Spells actually became significantly easier to cast for a level 1 and the level 2 reduction is balanced out by like a third of all spells having their casting value you by 1.

I love how when we get exactly what this thread has been asking for, major nerfs to high level wizards to make low levels viable and major buffs to infantry all people do is just complain more

>>95950186
>striking first with 5 attacks is not as good as getting 5 extra attacks for any vaguely equivalent units.
Its almost like attacking makes you more vulnerable and is more risky than being on defense... like it's always been historically. Two equal units facing off should have the defender winning on average

>>95949973
>It's literally just the same. It doesn't allow the second fighting rank to make more than 1 attack.
You're still getting the other buffs anon

>>95950205
I don't see just complaining mostly trying to figure out how to max infantry, and annoyance with poison and dragons still be stronk.

>>95950205
How did spells become significantly easier to cast? Some spells got a reduced casting value of 1, that doesn’t help my level 2 who got a -1 to his bonus, it just makes him worse at casting all the other spells.

>>95950218
>clanrats with ratling gun stocks go up
Feels good

>>95950191
That will almost never matter in practice, whoever gets there first will stand on top of the marker.

>>95950214
Indeed, I love playing Warhammer Historical Battle.

>>95950144
Don't apologise man, I had a ton of fun and desu in every match the marauders with flails have performed exponentially! Not only did you make me stick to Chaos, you also made me have a lot of fun too, so no biggy there.

Yeah the changes are a bit rough around the edges for some but our chaos knights are eating good and I believe Warrior blocks are now a thing worth considering outside of a sorcerer bubble.

Things will be fine.

>>95950225
You no longer have your opponent rolling with +4 against every cast.

>>95950227
Didn't mean to quote you >>95950218

>>95950225
He’s not effectively being auto-dispelled by the mere existence of a level 4 anymore.

>>95950066
Well a 20 wide frontage means you're probably going to be charge by multiple targets, if they're too close you don't get to stand and shoot at all and even with 20 shots you're only getting doing like 3-4 wounds against state troops

>>95950240
Right but I could play around that dude. I could tie up the level 4 or out range them. It wasn’t a good system, I wasn’t encouraged to take anything other than a level 4, but that’s still the case. I had play into a dispelling wizard. Now my wizard just sucks more at even getting the spell off in the first place. We don’t even get to the dispelling step.

>>95950232
Well you should, considering its Historical War game origins. Otherwise AoS is waiting if you want more fantasy superhero garbo

Keep in mind 1s and 2s only have a 12inch dispel range.

I started a Mino army just in time for it to lose it's save shenanigans
God damnit.

>>95950186
While the change to challenges is very welcome, I don't think it will change as much as you think it will. Dragons are still top dog. Even if they don't auto-break an infantry block anymore, they're still very deadly and mobile. A dragon won't charge an infantry regiment in its front, but it probably will still charge it in the rear! Dragons will require a bit more brainpower to use, but they'll still be very strong.

>>95950186
>It should be really obvious just doing a run through of the maths striking first with 5 attacks is not as good as getting 5 extra attacks for any vaguely equivalent units. The ‘initiative bonus cancels out the second rank’ is being repeated so often ITT it feels like one of the designers shilling cope.

Right because attacking a position that's in a defensive posture is always going to be harder on the attacker, that's just how combat works. A unit without an offensive bonuses like having more than one attack or hatred or some other bonus SHOULD be better on the defensive than offensive.

>>95950255
Isn't it 18 or did they nerf the range?

Does Parry work if you have a magic weapon?
Clawlord has a 4+ with shield and weeping blade. Is that a 3+ or 4+?

>>95950282
It specifically says hand weapons, so no

>>95950273
Well shit, it is.
I've been playing my Plague Priest wrong for over a year.

>>95950237
I can definitely see 3 deep drilled chosen being maybe viable now. Marching column, reform, you’re OK charging using halberds or whatever.

>enchanting aura and diabolic splendour only work on infantry and cav now
Ha! Nice. That's good, that's how I've been using them.

>>95950287
You can consider the knowledge a minor buff at least.

>>95950285
Damn
The Ogre Blade price increase has hit me very hard then

>>95950291
I liked enchanting aura on a character in a great weapon unit :)

>dragon ogres went up by 3 points
fixed

>>95949729
I don't think you understand how much the meta will shift now. Infantry is good now. EoG and Basto are massively buffed with the caster nerfs. Embrace change old man.

>>95950335
>infantry good
>my Witch Elves BTFO out of existence

are there any dragon nerfs

>>95950252
you are not succesfully rotating the cow in your mind on this topic

>>95950353
Yes. In a challenge, if the target dies, you can't use the mounts or lords attacks for overkill.

Also infantry now get +1 combat for just outnumbering as well as parry and double rank defensive attacks. Dragons can no longer easily route infantry blocks.

>>95950253
You should consider how discouraging players from initiating combat makes the game boring

>>95950363
That's cool but wish they went with something else, I really hate the idea of chump challenging dragons

Are dwarf castles just going to be the thing now?

>>95950335
>EoG and Basto are massively buffed
have you fucking looked at their profiles? do I have to remind you that the stegadon still gets hit as if he was WS2?

>>95950369
encouraging players to take advantageous combats is more interesting than encouraging them to take all fights

>>95950370
Me too. It's the opposite. Challemges used to be gamey towards the dragon. Now it's swapped over. I stay in the spirit and accept or call a challemge for a soecific character and vice versa. We tend to accept.

>>95950373
They lost linehammer badly but yes. Dwarfs benefited so much now that they can shut down magic on top of having army wide superior combat buff with parry and switching weapons mid combat.

>>95950119
Do they rank up on 50mm x 25mm bases? Just next to each other or could you have 2 ranks? The tails stick out a bit!

You've done exactly what I was planning to do so thanks for posting. Good to see it actually assembled.

>>95950370
Also dragons capped at 3+ save.

>>95950156
You're delulu

>>95950424
why are spears bad on almost every unit that can take them

>>95950272
>or some other bonus SHOULD be better on the defensive than offensive
He is not arguing that this shouldn't be the case. He is pointing out that most units will want to avoid charging. I swear to god nobody can read anymore.

I think challenge overkill should actually hit the unit

>>95950369
If you want to mash guys mindlessly into each other, Age of Sigmar has its own thread. I don't even mean that as an insult, it's just a better game for that.
Rank and Flank war games are all about using maneuvering to get an advantage. If charging the front always won, it would be a bad rank and flank.

>>95950373
As opposed to dwarf...gyrospam? Tbh anon vs the normal dwarf they tend to castle anyways. Should matched play catch on with it incentivizing forward play maybe it's more a wedge but I think this makes dwarfs stronger without radically changing game play

>>95950450
I just lord tier characters should be able to ignore unit champion challenges without penalty and champions should not be able to accept lords challenges

>trollhammer TORPEDO now the same strength as the units basic guns, losing 3 points of strength and gaining cumbersome
>no points adjustment

how does that even make sense? why would the torpedo be the same strength as their basic guns? that feels punitive, like someone on the team personally had a bad time against them.

To the person who called my Nomadic Waaagh list unplayable shit, I will now concede that with the new update, yes there is no way that list functions at all.

>>95950450
Nah, every overkill wound should count double for the purposes of combat resolution OR choose to count as 20 victory points as trophies get made of the slain

but this only counts for slain heroes, not slain unit champions

>>95950476
I'm fine with anyone stepping up to have a go, just don't let 1-wound schlubs consume the entirety of a monster's wrath after getting insta-squished

>>95950476
Gay

>>95950502
if you make every wound, not just excess wound, count double then there might be reasons to have duels other than stalling a dude on a monster.

>>95950524
There's another reason- to make sure some lord skulks back or can't mulch your bodyguard
Also the reason that it's fucking cool to knock heads

>>95950345
We're talking about scaly boys specifically. I know you got BTFOed.

>>95950376
>Having a fireball cast by an equivalent of a lvl 5 is somehow bad

>>95950543
>an equivalent of a lvl 5
you don't add the skink's level to bound spells

>>95950432
Because you have to pay for them where now you get the bonus for free? Are you like breathing in carbon monoxide?

>>95950476
Fuck off

>>95950266
A shitton of angry cows with GW and 3+ saves should still chop pretty good.
Someone correct me but
>3x2 brick, GW front shields back with full command
>4+ vs range 3+ melee with 3 to 5 GW attacks in the front per a model (6? On champ? If frenzy?) Plus impact hits
I dunno if worth giving up 6 attacks (only 1 in back rank right?)
I didn't reas the new faq a few times does monsterous infantry and motely crew not work like this now?

>>95950557
Its a Bound item level 3 which, with how the errata is written stays as a +3 casting bonus.

>>95949998
>The exalted champion can get a dragon now
T5 dragon and its still more points than warpfire or galrauch unless you want him naked

>>95950557
Bound items didn't get nerfed, bound level still gives you the same bonus.

>>95950476
That's not happening. Challenges have been a thing since 5th and worked that way.

>hammerers get gromril armor
Yippee
>Runesmiths/AoDs both kept their dispell values and they got better by proxy
Yahoo
>Trollhammer torpedos nuked from orbit
Fuck

>>95950614
>Master rune of calm now totally negates lvl 3/4 casters bonus and nets -1 to lvl 1/2
Based, fuck wizards

>>95950113
>>95950119
>>95950123
I'll post him tomorrow when I am back home. If it means anything I sort of based him off Slagar from Redwall

>>95950608
>and worked that way.
and now miao ying ignores them because the rules writers realised challenges aren't being used for the purpose of cool duels but just to bog melee characters and win combats by technicalities.

>>95950649
I aint saying otherwise, you are correct they are being exploited. But the alternatives presented above are not good either.

>>95950666
Then what do you suggest?

>>95950666
Just let overkill spillover, then you can have your le epic character duels and monsters still get to tear up infantry after the brave but foolhardy unit champ gets cut down

>>95950673
A bog standard leadership test to decline off the top of my head.

>>95950679
I like the concept of overkill on paper. Maybe instead have it negate rank bonus i.e 1 point of overkill, 1 less rank bonus. Shows how catastrophically things are going

Did a low tier mutation on this last gor I had assembled for from my battalion box. Almost like this fella is on the path on becoming warped

all this talk of dragon lords being bogged down by random schmucks made me questions whether or not it would be a good idea to take a waystalker with the bow of loren to try and snipe champions (and I guess low lvl casters?) out and open the way for a glade lord on dragon to murderfuck some unlucky sods

please guys, I know I'm huffing copium, but I'm trying to find some dumb clunky ways that WElves could mildly shine

>>95950701
Of course I forgot to include the image

>>95950707
No, sorry you're fucked. You are in almost as bad of a place as the legacy factions.

>>95950726
>You are in almost as bad of a place as the legacy factions.
Legacy factions vary a lot on how good they are though

>>95950707
As a Dark Elves player, Wood Elves have always been my brothers and sisters, rejoin the fold and be the elves you were meant to be.

>>95950708
Cool. Adding character to random models in units is always a nice detail.

>>95950614
Anvil of doom is crazy good now

NEW BREAD, NEW BREAD, NEW BREAD

>>95950811
We're on page 6, retard

>>95950818
I'M ON AND INSIDE YOUR MOTHER WHO WAS ON PAGE 3 IN A BRITISH TABLOID MOTHERFUCKER

>>95950806
it was already almost auto include. now its gonna be downright mandatory, especially with the nerf to grudgehammers

>>95950831
No, you're on page 6, retard.

we are now on year 2 of ungrim ironfist being permanently out of stock

>>95950844
SHE SAYS HI

>>95950806
>Anvil of doom is crazy good now
>>95950834
>it was already almost auto include. now its gonna be downright mandatory, especially with the nerf to grudgehammers
Putting the T10 rune on the anvil is a goddamn warcrime, fuck whoever thought that was ok

>>95950859
does that still work? i thought that just got nerfed with the change to the way armor runes work on the anvil

>>95950859
to be fair it is 100pts just for the rune itself. its amazing, but you're 300+ points in the hole on movement zero support characters without even getting your first lord yet.

>>95950858
No, this is page 6

>>95950906
What are you wearing?

Does infantry that would otherwise have a 2+ AV with full plate + HWS negate -1 AP or does the extra party value just get lost since it caps at 3+

Cool FAQ and errata, GW. Too bad I'm NOT using it for casual games at home with my newbie friends

>>95950948
caps at 3 and doesn't ignore penetration.

>>95950448
Yes units that don't have a strong offense shouldn't be charging. Having every unit be stronger on the charge is dumb

>>95950985
soooo... are ironbreakers just kind of redundant now?

>>95950995
Why is having all units be stronger on the defense not dumb?

>>95950985
Do you know the exact rules that confirms that? Someone in my legs group chat is arguing that iron breakers will ignore -1 AP now. Found this but not sure if it applies to the different cap the same way

>>95951004
That's not what he said? He said most units, not all, should be stronger on the defense .

>>95950948
Its lost

>>95951012
This is annulled by the FAQ.

>>95951002
I mean you get a 6+ ward and you rr 1s for your armour save so they they still have better protection that warriors

>>95951027
Only partially. Inf and Cav still get a 2+ (although the parry specifically cannot take you down to a 2+.

>>95951004
Because the defender having an edge in any fight is pretty basic rule of combat in general, and having a mix of defensive units and aggressive units is better than having a mix of aggressive units and fodder

>>95951058
>a mix of defensive units and aggressive units
what aggressive units? the ones that are always inferior to their equivalent in defensive units?

>>95950707
Doesn't really work. You can bring them and shoot at characters / champ but they still take it on the unit on a 2+.

hold up, zombie dragons get to regen their crumble now? Undead BUFFED?

>>95950953
>I want my newbie friends to have a worse play experience
Fag

>tfw brainlet so every one of my units is shit no matter what the rules say
Get on my level

>>95951115
Yes but now you also have to regen every lost wound on multiple damage
Enjoy chewing on cathayan cannons for 6 months

>>95950847
At this point, anon just go to Warhammer World in Nottingham and buy the model

>>95951155
It's not that big of a change. If the attack has more damage than you have wounds it's worse, but until you're at that point it averages the same, just less swingy.

Think I like the chariot over the dragon for the chaos lord now. Sucks a bit if you get bogged down but use the spare points for a unit of knights to run him in with. Impact hits avoid the challenge problem, it's almost as tough, and yeah it does a lot less damage but he's OK at killing things himself with a good weapon.

>>95951047
If Ironbreakers can get down to a 2+ without the parry save they will have a 3+ with -1AP. If they need the parry boost to do it they will be 4+ with -1AP because the parry boost will never take you past 3+.

The FAQ basically means "field lother sea guard, retard" for Helf players

>>95950859
I don't think you can do a T10 anvil anymore.

>>95951223
i would if i could buy them

>>95951223
i think all the helf elite infantry got kinda of interesting. Phoenix Guard are still the most resilient and strike back in 3 ranks down, Swordmasters in 2 ranks often striking first is really mean into most things that might try to pick a fight with them, and White Lions got furious charge so those are the ones you want charging into static units.

WS5 S6 AP-3 at I8 2 attacks apiece on the WLs is a pretty real threat into a lot of targets.

>>95951223
So nothing changed for core. LSG and SHs plus reavers

Like I think this is actually quite a viable special selection for a high elf army now, which I imagine the helf players are happy with just as the empire players are happy with (at least 1) big block of state infantry.

The white lions not getting drilled does kind of kill them for deployment and maneuvering, but 2 small units with move through cover can hopefully find a good angle to threaten opponents and are still devastating on the charge.

I like playing Wood Elves because i like looking at half naked elf men with long hair

>>95951324
We all know that struggle.

>>95951324
Based, I enjoy Dark Elves since I get to run around with half naked women on the table.

>VCs and TKs can now regen from crumbling

>>95951337
We are not so different you and i

>>95951263
How are WLs, I8?

>>95951359
Oh my bad, I thought the great blades didn't have strike last for WLs. Ignore everything, they're trash. At least swordmasters and phoenix guard got better.

>>95951095
Units that can do enough damage at a higher initiative to make charging worth it, warranties, gors, etc.

>>95951383
*wardancers

So one of the writers definitely plays Brets right? Green Knight can still charge immediately, basically zero nerfs to Brets and your one mandatory unit of peasants got better.

>>95951383
One day I'll find these illusive units for my army outside of dragons.

>>95951324
Based
>>95951337
Homo

>>95951367
Gotcha! All good, I was thinking there was some tech I missed lol

>>95951095
NTA but for example unit of 6 chaos knights with the MoK is pretty clearly an offensive unit. First Charge turns off ranks, Counter Charge propels them into a lot of what would charge them, 13 WS5 S6 AP-2 attacks from the lances plus 6 WS3 S4 attacks from the steed on the charge. T4 and a 2+ save on whatever is coming back at them from the second rank.

>>95951337
Unfortunately, our naked elf women got spanked down a power level.

>>95951425
Looking I saw you're also gonna have to wait for the Furious Charge they gave to the WLs to get FAQ'd onto the White Lion Chariot guys too, which is a bit annoying. I guess a unit isn't completely nonviable with FC but no drilled means no marching column then reform, move through cover is something any other unit can pick up with a 20pt banner. Like they do hit hard but you're gonna take some casualties on the way in for sure and again you get that problem where you might pick on goblins or state troops but other elite infantry are going to be risky.

>>95951452
I'm okay with not having them on the table at the moment as I'm still trying to figure out how to get the skin the way I want on mine.

>>95951444
Sorry, 3+. Rules changes have me fully thinking I'm back in 6e.

>>95951339
What are the requirements?

>>95951037
Royal clan warriors with 1h and shields are pretty much budget ironbreakers now plus they're core. I'll probably run a huge block of them in my next game

>>95951478
Nothing, it's just down to how they changed the regen wording. I would say pretty clearly not RAI but RAW right now you get to roll regen against every unstable wound.

>>95951526
Nah, there was another FAQ answer in the 1.3 FAQ that said that regen doesn't apply to unstable wounds, but they deleted it for today's update. 100% intentional.

>>95951559
That also buffs the DP at least

>>95951559
Grave guard and tomb guard looking like pretty good grinders then.

For melee combat on charge, when you kill men, are they removed from the first or second rank when dealing with attack count?

For example I kill 5 men from a 5 rank unit. Those men have 2 attacks. Are the support attacks are whats left or the front rank get their 2 attacks?

>>95951155
>>95951190
the good news is regen is a "may" ability so at least on your zombies and other 1 wound models you can choose not to take a regen save if they get hit with a multi-wound attack so it only counts as 1 CR

>>95948764
All me

>>95951578
Supporting attacks from the sides is what's left. As the guys in the front are dead, and if you were only 2 deep then there'd not even be SAs from the second rank because they "stepped up".

>>95951578
I thought this was a straightforward 'no obviously you lose the guys in BtB' but yeah I think you can just drop them from the second rank and preserve all your multi-attack guys at the front by the rules. The new rules are clear both first and second rank are fighting rank.

>>95951621
The attacking in 2 ranks thing is not supporting attacks, it's explicitly the fighting rank. They just only get to make 1 attack there because they're not in BtB.

>>95951578
>>95951621
Models are removed from the ends of the fighting rank first.
https://tow.whfb.app/the-combat-phase/stepping-forward-and-closing-in

>>95951647
What does that mean now though? First or second row of the fighting rank? Can I remove R2 L2 before I remove R1 L1?

so glad this is no longer a white man's game, loving Cathay

>>95951692
With rules as written (second rank being explicitly a fighting rank and casualties being removed from ends) you are removing them from row 2. I don't think this is intended and this only really matters form 2+A.

>>95951692
It just says the "ends" first, so player's choice.

>>95951740
There is a follow on question where if I have like:

ABCDE
FGHIJ

Can I remove them in order FJGIH before AE? Or must I go FA JE then GB etc.

>>95951751
I'll be honest (skink) chief - no idea. It depends on what is meant by ends.

>>95950875
>>95950902
>>95951227
You can still use the rune and it will apply to the crew, in other words in close combat. Most factions dont have S5+ ranged damage to engage the anvil without damaging on 6s, so you have to engage in melee and also get stuck in wounding on 6s. In fact S3-4 cannot wound it then

>>95950285

That's kind dumb to be honest.

>>95948569
>Nerf the fuck out of Pegasus Knights
>Overprice Royal Pegasus
>Nerf the fuck out of Bretonnian and Dwarf counters to monsters.
>High Elf and Wood Elf Dragons completely unchanged.

What the fucking fuck. I guess GW really loves Elfhammer.

>>95951887
this is your brain on elf piss

>>95950345
What happened to witch elves?

>>95951915
You need to charge to get frenzy now

>>95951887
This is just bait

>>95951452
>Spanking naked elven women
God if only

>>95951934
Also poison loses its auto wound, which when going into lower T targets it's not so much of a problem but they lost the ability to be able to potentially hurt some higher T things.

>>95951915
Only get the +1 frenzy attack on the charge.
Poison is now +2 to wound on a natural 6 to hit.
Incredible no? Fixed and balanced.

>>95951887
Agreed. There's no way the humble Royal Pegasus is worth 70 points. 68 points, 69 points MAYBE. At a PUSH. But 70 points is ludicrous.

>>95951735
How many Asians are in your Club now anon?

Ironically the points changes were the most pointless part of the FAQ.

>>95951887
Anon, Wood Elves are pretty much in the gutter

>>95951735
Yellow fever white men make up like 95% of the tabletop hobby space anon, this is only going to make that number go up

>>95952039
Miao Yang is absolutely going to sell well with Coomers i bet.

>>95951977
Charge and follow up. Ironic if your frenzy unit follows up after winning combat post give ground, you get frenzy on fdont and supporting. Hidden perk.

>>95951751
Your fighting rank is the BTB rank, you can count the models on the back rank (FGHIJ) for esxtra supporting attacks. As you are killed you cant alter your frontage unless you dont have the dudes. So FGHIJ die first. Then as normal you remove models from the end of the rank until the command (who should be in the middle) or the middle most model is left if theyre all generic. so it can go A/E then E/A, then the musician (or B/D and D/B), then the standard bearer, then the champion.

Even if a character in the unit killing them directs their atatcks and can only kill X models in front of them (such as say 1 generic and 2 characters that have joined) the generic killed/wounds allocated to them are more the blob mass of the unit who get replaced at until theres none left.

TLDR you dont alter the unit's formation until you can reform. Its assumed the models that die are replaced by those that behind them. The 'ends' it refers to are the farthest model on either side of a rank.

>>95952038
I'm no comp guy but bodkins are strong. What's wrong with WE?

>>95952077
Bodkins are nice, but mostly S:3. So poison was your big anti-monster ability

How are Chaos Warrior stocks looking after the FAQ/errata?I don't mean the faction I mean the infantry.

>>95952077
The short of it is lack of hard hitting stuff which poison changes cuts further and combat res favoring big blocks which wood elves don't do and spellcaster nerfs which they relied on.

>>95952096
Just use Wildwood Rangers :)

>>95950581
>In such cases, use the better armour value (not including the armour value of any characters or champions that have purchased magic items or unique upgrades to improve their armour).
Can't have characters with good armor saves take the hits

>>95952109
OK. They were semi viable before solely as a sorcerer unit. Now though they're a decent anvil. 3+ saves, two ranks defensively. They're casually viablw now.

>>95952109
I think chosen with drilled look decent. They're expensive but they play well into other infantry now and you will see infantry.

>>95952161
I meant if the majority of models have shields then it would work vs shooting and melee no? Even if the GW are up front?

maybe i should just play orcs and goblins with a black orc force (boring i know)

>>95952141
:’(

>>95952055
The bitches save on 6. Not many are surviving to make use of this.

>>95952222
>quads
i-is this a sign from mork? (possibly gork?)

>>95952222
Mork (or possibly Gork) has spoken and checked.

>>95952214
Ah, then yes
But Minos only have Light+Shield so it's a 5+
Having 150+points sitting in the back is not great though.

>>95951526
>>95951559
thats kinda cool

I think infantry characters are now more worth considering and as a result the infantry that charges is still at an advantage, since attacking first with your character who in many cases is going to be more of your killing power is going to outweigh 6 basic attacks against any target other than great weapons or something. Plus you're also more likely to be buffed up and killy on your turn.

>just finished learning the rules
>errata drops
>feel more confused
When will the rules index be updated?
I need the changes distilled into zoomie format.

seems like vampires and tomb kings got a buff, can use regen on wounds lost to crumble

>>95952280
I feel like infantry blocks will end up staring at each other
If charge with a 9 wide unit into a 9 wide unit, each with 2 characters

I get 8 attacks+2 characters, whatever their statline is

The other unit has 17 attacks+2 characters

I'm not going to kill 9+ dudes/characters

>>95952300
While the mortals quibble with each other the dead continue to win.

>mfw I realise I can't give the Bretonnian Kill lord have a 2+ armour save on a Hippogryph by giving him the Gromril Great Helm anymore.

>>95952307
Let's face it, this edition of the game (whilst beautifuly orchestrated) is fucked in terms of rules.
They noticed .... late. They tried to fix the mess. They just made everything 200% more complicated.
And infantry still sucks.

>>95952109
I will need to play a game or seven with them before I can say whether or not they're actually better, but everything in the new FAQ seems to indicate that they will be better.

>>95952307
Phakth's blades of justice stocks to the moon

>>95952109
>>95952177
Newb here. What kind of formations are you gonna want to be running with the warriors now? 2 or 3 rows of 6?

>>95952307
>>95952322
AHHHH IM CHARGING INTO A BLOCK OF INFANTRY HEAD ON IN A RANK AND FLANK GAME AND MIGHT LOSE THE COMBAT, SEND HELP

>>95952322
>infantry still sucks
Just stand still and let the enemy crash into your cheap 3+ save two rank fighters bro.

>>95952338
Well... what are you supposed to do with your infantry then? They're slow as molasses, so you can't really flank. Their charge distance sucks too.

>>95952338
Wait a minute...
>get close
>loose missiles with throwing weapons, pistols, bows, etc to bait the enemy into a charge or to simply lock them in place
>when able, hit their flank with probably cavalry

>>95952346
Why do you think you call em anvils anon?
>>95952359
Now you're thinking with strategy.

>>95952322
the SGS just aren't up to wrintg these editions no matter how much time they have. They should stop trying to shoehorn new rules in because they clearly cant handle it and just release 6th with new armies and campaign books.

>>95952338
>>95952307
If this ends up being the case. Skaven may have just gotten a good deal better.

I shoot you with a ratling gun.
Charge me? I shoot you again and get a bunch of attacks.
Don't charge me? I shoot you again.

fuck it, starting my adventure in tow with bretonnia, since I got a starter box for cheap

what should I buy next to have a reasonable but not overpowered list, should I get a normal prophetess or a mounted one? I know the green knight is somewhat a problem so I won't get him for now

>>95952346
Stubby dawi fingers slowly typed this

>>95952322
Top tables might not change that much, and the most bottom of the barrel casual lists don't care either way, but I think for most people the changes are enough to make infantry worthwhile.

>>95952399
Don't they both come in the same kit?

>>95952389
6th wasn't without its issues either

>infantry needs to be wide since they get supporting attacks that way
>but they need to be deep to make use of their extra rank bonus
>but if they do that their flanks are exposed, costing them everything
>so you go wide to cover yourself
Or you use detachments of shot on the wings to pepper enemy formations while your own center bulks up to receive a charge.

>>95952445
>>but they need to be deep to make use of their extra rank bonus
not really, no, rank bonus add very little compared to what you can get out of an extra wide rank of attacks
and you'll not really want spears either with that extra shield bonus

>>95952421
I thought it was 2 kits

>>95952445
>oh no trade offs!

If my unit has spears can I just opt to use a hand weapon + shield to get the parry armour bonus?

>>95952460
You're probably right, I think from the GW store directly when stocked there's a mounted/foot kit- maybe it was MTO (made to order) I'm thinking of.

>>95952465
Yes.

>>95952481
Sword and board for charging in for that +1 save, spears for defensive three rank fighting.

>>95952346
Drilled infantry can matching column up the board then free reform for making or receiving a charge. It’s really pretty dumb in TOW drilled costs the same as stubborn or veteran a lot of the time.