Thread 95967749

>everyone in 5e is a player character using the PC class rules
>anyone who isn't an NPC, except maybe certain long-term DMPCs, has to be an NPC who is built like a monster rather than a character, often using a pregenerated stat block
>this has been considered "normal" by D&Dfags for over 10 years
Explain this.

>>95967749 (OP)
holdover from 4e where PCs were a gajillion times more complicated
PCs in 5e still get a lot of stuff that's absolutely worthless/time wasting to write down for an NPC, so I could understand it. Did the devs ever actually release the math for making NPCs beyond that genuinely useless table and a 'just make it up bro?'

Holdover from the existence of things like NPC classes in 4e and 3e
Which itself was a holdover from 2e and older where PCs were dirt simple and warriors were basically just "here's your 6 ability scores, here's your class, your class and level determines your save vs death/wand/breath/polymorph" and you could make a finished character in 5 minutes by rolling for stats and writing a name down, so everybody could be a PC class to some extent unless they were dirty peasants or bandits and as such could be found in the monster manual (so in reality, 5e humanoids are pretty similar to 2e in design function)

>>95967749 (OP)
PC's have the capacity to grow and become godlike beings, NPC's will never grow.

>>95967839
>Holdover from the existence of things like NPC classes in 4e and 3e
That was a better system, because there wasn't an arbitrary distinction between who was a PC and who was an NPC, and the blurry line of DMPCs, who might not always be DMPCs for various plot-related reasons.
It just didn't work well because D&D is 4 characters attacking a single NPC enemy for CR purposes. So they need to have 4 times the hit points of each PC, which in those systems meant 4x the level and thus 4x the attack bonus so it unbalanced the game, in 3.5 at least.

There's really no way around it, except in games like B/X where the numbers escalate a lot slower.

>>95967749 (OP)
In video games it's assumed that there will be an extremely small overlap if any between non-universal abilities players can use and that monsters can use. As usual, 3.5e did it the best but most of the modern D&D audience is too lazy.

>>95968030
>D&D is 4 characters attacking a single NPC enemy for CR purposes
Verisimilitude > CR, if players walk into the orc fortress they should be swarmed with mooks and if they walk into the dragon's lair they should fight a boss (although arguably with minions). Also, there should be a wide variety of CRs of monsters in the same encounter.

>>95967749 (OP)
>two contradictory and false statements
>Explain this.
OP, you might be retarded.

>>95967749 (OP)
>no one posted how even back in OD&D it was like this
you think orcs had player classes?

>>95967749 (OP)
Well duh, players run their characters so they only have to focus on one set of powers, but a DM would usually be running a bunch of different guys at the same time.

>>95967749 (OP)
D&D isn't a simulationist game, and gets benefit out of building NPCs for the purpose of being NPCs in terms of how the game is supposed to function.

On the opposite end of the spectrum for popular games, Shadowrun is extremely simulationist and relies on PCs and NPCs functioning identically.

>>95967749 (OP)
>has to be an NPC who is built like a monster rather than a character
There was a point in my 3e career I stopped justifying every ability of a non-monster NPC with anything beyond "Because I fucking said so".
>The two guardians of the gate have a powerful AOE curse and a massive inferno spell "because I fucking said so".
>The massive brute in hulking armor in the castle courtyard has a superhuman 28 strength "because I fucking said so", his swing also hits three targets in front of him "because I fucking said so".
>The leader of the holy city cannot hear any lies "because I fucking said so".
>The alchemist girl who lives in the woods can create three potions/day "because I fucking said so".
>The Lich King final boss has 300HP as a Lv13 wizard "because I fucking said so".
>The blind Medusa living deep in the jungle can remove any curse with a touch "because I fucking said so".
>The berserker fey gets the benefits of supreme cleave, power attack, and frenzy despite not having the frenzied berserker class "because I fucking said so"
They're not PCs, so they don't follow PC rules.

>>95972497
My PC farts into the NPCs face and kills him, no save because I fucking said so

>>95972569
Your PC better have cloudkill.

>>95967749 (OP)
How is this bad?
It allows for player characters to be mechanically complex and grow. NPCs should be simple (since the DM is managing many of them) and has no reason to grow.

>>95967749 (OP)
They don't go far enough, opponents/GMCs shouldn't be built like characters at all. The fact that you need to look up spells in the phb for enemies is a fucking joke.
They should have a reflex/fortitude/will save, hit points, and attacks/spells/spell like abilities, and a modifier against player stealth checks.

>>95967915
cringe

>>95972497
>>The alchemist girl who lives in the woods can create three potions/day "because I fucking said so".
That's the worst part, PCs want the wizard to craft like 10 magic items for them but aren't willing to wait 35 days for the crafting to be done.

>>95967749 (OP)
As a player, I am playing a single character with a single evolving stat block for months or even years.
As a GM, I am running anywhere from three to seven stat blocks in a single encounter, some of which I might never have used before and might never use again. I don't need them to be as complex as a PC, and I don't want them to be if it means I can't fit three of them on an A4 sheet and see all their abilities and modifiers at a glance.

>>95967749 (OP)
1. 5e does in fact have NPC subclasses and NPCs built like PCs; it's just a huge waste of time so nobody does it.
2. For every edition of D&D except 3e, the vast majority of characters were not built using PC rules.

>>95967749 (OP)
You need three things written down for an NPC

>Physical description
>Motivations
>Plot role
Everything else is superfluous

>BUT WHAT ABOUT THE STAT BLOCK!???
Lol, lmao. The NPC has stats and abilities that are useful for him to have. He hits when it's fun or narratively useful for him to have hit. He dies when it's time for him to die.
Y'all pussies don't know how to make fun games anymore.

>>95977920
I disagree, but not out of any sense of fairness or need for mechanically consistency. A quick stat block is one less thing that I have to think about during the play of the game. I don't want to have to think "okay, what makes sense here" every time the opposition does something, I want a quick reference so I can make a roll and move on.

>>95970740
It was even simpler and better back then. 99% of humans were "Normal Men" who had the same stat block. Classed NPCs were the exception rather than the rule. The DMG back then flat out said that NPC specialists did what you wanted them to do and gave you guidelines on pricing to hire them. None of this retarded Level 20 Commoner bullshit that WotC D&D introduced.

>>95979824
>99% of humans were "Normal Men" who had the same stat block.
They also didn't have a name and weren't who the PCs generally interacted with. Named NPCs in TSR adventures and campaign books frequently had class levels.

>>95967749 (OP)
It's because I have to prepare two dozen of the little fuckers for you in advance, you entitled player cunt. If Dick Zenith Fobothavus becomes important enough to have class levels I'll redo him that way, for now you'll deal with a normal ass fucking statblock.

>>95967749 (OP)
What are you even talking about?
>>95967806
None of this is true, people haven't had to do that since 3.5/Pathfinder, all the NPCs in 4th and 5th are just pregen statblocks.

>>95970854
>D&D isn't a simulationist game
Correction, It's not a simulationist game Anymore. D&D was built from the start as a simulationist wargame from it's roots as an expansion for chainmail all the way to the 3.PF era.
This was only dropped recently in 4e. All WotC content from this edition on have been Cancer.

>>95977920
>Lol, lmao. The NPC has stats and abilities that are useful for him to have. He hits when it's fun or narratively useful for him to have hit. He dies when it's time for him to die.
Kill yourself. Retards like you are the reason D&D is so fucking shit now. Everything is just "handwaved" because people don't actually give a fuck. They cite that one Gygax quote and ignore the fact that the game had far fewer rules back then, and also Gygax was a very talented storyteller who created some of the best OC monsters ever, while simultaneously being too retarded to come up with names that weren't just his friends' names spelled backward. He was a unique individual. Guess what? What works for Gygax, doesn't work for you, because you're a fucking 103 IQ normalfag raised on vidya slop and video essays about how Lord of the Rings is racist. If you're not a published fiction author with at least 20,000 copies sold, you shouldn't be allowed to change any dice rolls. I am being 100% fucking serious there. Fudging dice is dishonest and destroys the integrity of the game. No, it is not "cooperative storytelling" you fucking faggot. It's a ROLEPLAYING. GAME. i.e. the dice rolls matter and YES you can cheat at it. Rule zero is bullshit because most DMs are bullshit and should not be DMing. Most of them are fucking shit at descriptions or at creating any kind of tension. There's a reason I've been a forever DM for over 15 years and I STILL don't fudge dice rolls because guess what? I am not a talented enough storyteller or writer to be worthy of ignoring the core function of the game, that gives it its integrity and worth. Otherwise just go fucking write a novel. You know how people tell GMs who railroad to just go write a novel? Well GMs who fudge dice, should also go write a novel, because you clearly don't give a FUCK about playing a roleplaying game, and you are disrespecting EVERY SINGLE PERSON who is actually trying to. Fuck you.

>>95977667
Everything about your image sucks though, and they're not whatsoever balanced to NPCs, the subclasses shouldn't be offered to PCs "with your approval" but at most it should be the DM who offers the subclasses as available.
And, worst of all, naming the antipaladin "Oathbreaker" was the dumbest shit ever who confused way too many 5e retards, even those at Larian.

>>95980955
Mad

>>95967749 (OP)
That's the main reason our DM likes 3.5e better than 5e.
Everything works under the same framework.
Want to make a pregen monster statblock better? Throw some class levels or a template or whatever. It's perfectly systematized.

>>95980738
>D&D was built from the start as a simulationist
lol
What was the class of an ogre back in AD&D?

>>95977920
And yet you're too much of a chickenshit to admit this to your players, and you still make them learn rules you don't use out of that cowardice.

>>95968030
4e is balanced about ~5 characters vs ~5 NPC enemies.

>>95980955
new copypasta dropped

>>95979824
The AD&D monster manual includes class levels for leaders of most humanoid monsters, as well as a few others

>>95980955
Absolute truth nuke, The Dice Never Lie
>>95983898
AD&D at least specified that the ogre statblock could be modified for leaders, females, and children without giving an entire different statblock (which for some reason has a different pre-set weapon and MMO-esque recharging ability) for each one. "Attacking as a 7 hit dice monster" might as well be a description of the monster's class level, since HD modifies to-hit bonus and saves.

>>95984989
Most issues with the combat of 4e and 5e are downstream from the game changing from a semi-simulationist fantasy wargame to an idealized and overly balanced superheroic tabletop fighting game (Yes, 4e and 5e were fighting games as in the video game genre)

>>95967749 (OP)
Is there really that big a difference between the two except bookkeeping? It's just arbitrary numbers to determine roughly how powerful a character or NPC is.

>>95967749 (OP)
Use pregen player statblocks for NPCs that actually matter at all and just give humanoid characters that are there to be merchants or jobber villains generic shit. Is that so hard? If DMing is as difficult as pretending to be multiple players at once you're doing something wrong, if DMing is easier than being a player you're doing something wrong. It's just different things in each case.

>>95983502
Not an argument

>>95985221
Yeah because you're too fucking unoriginal to post something yourself.

>>95983898
That's a complete non-sequitur.
The point is that back then, humanoids had classes.

On one side if i'm going to pay for a product I want it to be the most comprehensive, and making part of the rules player or monster exclusive really is lame
On the other side any gm that goes beyond "Players hit on a 15 and he dies after 5 hits" is just wasting time