>Go into FLGS
>Notice people crowding the new releases
>Apparently The Old World got Beastmen and now all the neckbeards that don't play dwarves are getting their fix
>Notice the warhammer section in general is a lot more blue boxes than red now
>Shooting the shit with owner he says AoS kind of died off with the new edition but TOW started taking off when it was more than just bret and tomb king battallion boxes
>The shelf now has boxes of what looks like two seperate units but also sideways on lots of batallions he says he 'can't keep in stock'.
>For £110 minimum 4 units and a hero
>Meanwhile an AoS spearhead is like £90 for two units and 1-2 heros

So i am out of the loop on TOW. I played my tomb kings back in 6th edition WHFB as a kid but assumed this was just kind of GW throwing some nostalgia bait out to bring back the greybeards who didn't play 40k they lost.

But has the situation changed in 2025? i see a couple of blokes playing TOW at my locals and havent seen a single aos game being played since around the time the stores had adds up for the lord of the rings magic the gather set.

If it has changed what do you think caused it?

>>95985615 (OP)
>what do you think caused it?
Total War Warhammer

>>95985615 (OP)
You know there is a whole general thread you can check out and ask these exact same questions in.
But Old World has been on a slow uptick as of late from what i've seen overall

>>95985615 (OP)
>what do you think caused it?
Gay models, gay lore. People played it because there was no alternative. Now that WHF is legitimately back people are coming home and abandoning Shitmar at a frightening pace.

>>95985615 (OP)
you don't get heros in Battlion boxes though

>>95985615 (OP)
TOW battalions boxes don't come with a hero. And the TOW heroes are insanely overpriced for ancient fucking plastic models

>>95985662
>he TOW heroes are insanely overpriced for ancient fucking plastic models
yeah i don't get the pricing for TOW.
Why does a single Metal mini cost £9 but a plastic mini the same size cost £18?

>>95985633
Because the generals always get pissy and claim its another general trying to larp and you never get any genuine answers.

>>95985615 (OP)
I talked to a couple regulars at my LGS about this a while ago and their theory seems good enough for someone who doesn't play any GW games.
>WHFB players move to AOS because there's no other option.
>AOS doesn't bring in a lot of new players, people just didn't care and there wasn't any good supporting media to buoy interest.
>Total War Warhammer surges interest in WHFB but the game is dead, those potential new players don't want to mess with AOS.
>TOW is back, AOS players forced to move over come back, Total War Warhammer has fallen off a little but a few people are now into the setting and getting interested in tabletop.
It seems believable enough to me, but my store and town is pretty small, so it's not a great sample size.

>>95985615 (OP)
GW screwed up and made AOS more expensive to get into than 40K or most any other games now. Spearhead exists as a one in done, pseudo skirmish, pseudo big game format. It's like Kill Team, but if the boxes were twice the price and with no interesting cover mechanics. It's a good game, but they just need to make spearhead the main format with customizable spearheads.

Big AOS requires me to:

>Buy multiple fuck huge ugly spells that you didn't really want

>Buy a huge terrain piece that is neat, but once again, wasn't really something I was looking for

>Buy a book

And we're at like 200 bucks already before I put a single color on my Goblin. I get twenty paints and a primer at an msrp of 120 bucks, then I get the pleasure of paying 100 bucks for these two dudes who are, at best, 10% of my army.

AOS is Warhammer Hell; Kill Team is heaven

>>95985678
Metal minis just have a (basically) flat cost to manufacture.

Plastic minis are cheap to make but require a very expensive mold to be made first. This is why GW's plastic heros are barely less expensive than entire units, because the cost per kit to them is not much less, and why no other company does the retarded shit that is single plastic 28mm model kits.

>>95986002
GW makes unique plastic heroes to be given out to few 100 people at 1 event and then never be porduced again. I highly doubt all those modls are expensive.

This thread is just containment for mentally deficient i hope you fags stay here and necro bump it for the next week

>>95985615 (OP)
I honestly think AoS is more intimidating for a new player, especially one that is also interested in painting. Not only do you have to spend a ton of money on hero units (Which are pretty much required for every army), they are fucking huge over-detailed messes that look really bad if they aren't painted well and are usually a pain in the ass to transport.

Meanwhile in TOW your command unit is "Guy on a horse" and all of your guys are pretty easy to paint.

>this polish janny thread again

>>95986065
I dont think people really calculate how hard models are to paint until they have experience

>>95986115
>Ben
>Perryfag
/v/ raiders
>Polish janny
Its hilarious how many boogeymen this board goes through

>>95986140
>"Everyone with an opinion i don't share is an OP"
A reminder That Guy at your FLGS probably posts on /tg/ and is just as spiritually abhorrent here.

Getting tired of seeing this shit astroturfed every second day for two weeks

Tell your boss at the marketing firm to tell james i will NEVER play TOW no matter how much you parade around the desecrated corpse of the game i liked. I havent given you fucks a cent since 2016 and its sure as hell not changing because you paid some indians to shill on 4chan

>>95985615 (OP)
3rd edition introduced a lot of kids to the horrible GW churn and garbage rule writing. AOS armies are ridiculously sickeningly overpriced (model-wise and then endless spells and paper books which should have been free app rules and then faction terrain), while also being entirely neglected by GW with 10 years of a faction you might get 2 foot heroes and zero actual units released.

40k doesn't require the faction terrain or the endless spells and it is carried by people caring about the setting (40k lore and books are popular, AOS is toilet paper nobody gives a fuck about.) 40k and Warhammer Fantasy are both good enough settings to have a dozen video games and multiple big popular hits (AOS is 0% on video games outside a trashcan, their largest AOS video game was so bad that it had to be given out for like $0.50 as 1/8th of a humble bundle. That's right, the main AOS video game is so trash that people paid less than one plastic goblin's ballsack and still nobody ever played it (0 average players)

The intelligent players can also just skip AOS and play Warcry or Underworlds and have a better game experience for 10% of the cost of AOS. Then the few remaining AOS players have to watch Old World being a much more fun to play wargame with significantly cheaper models - and having two fantasy games out at same time cannibilizes sales so GW feels even less incentive to give stuff like idoneth deepkin anything more than 2 foot heroes nobody has fucking wanted in 10 years when they're missing crab knights and things.

GW finally realizing they should have just put their sculptors to modernize warhammer fantasy the exact way they redid sculpts on lizardmen, chaos, skaven and undead. There is zero benefit to smegmar's lore and setting for GW.

>>95985615 (OP)
TOW is Flopping as well, apparently
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wz52nIaD-x4&t=214s

>>95986320
Neckbeards will, as a majority, always reject asian fantasy. Wuxia in particular drives them it a tism' frism for reasons i've never quite figured out but its been a thing for years. Back in the day MTGfags would go fucking ballistic if a Legend of the Five Rings set was up on the counter before the latest magic set, WoW players blew their collective knife out when "castle: western" was replaced with "castle: eastern" for an expansion.

If Tomb Kings were a niche Cathay was always going to be a turbo niche.

>>95986206
Personally, much as i love elements of AoS like teclis recreating the high elves but their souls were scarred by Slaanesh and the end times so in fear he would call them a failed creation they flew to the deep seas to become the idoneth deepkin in general i feel 3rd edition kind of killed it and 4th was a test to see if it still had legs and they used the skaven as the push. If it didn't sell enough i wont be shocked if it just gets shelved and skaven and stuff go to the old world again.

I don't want it mind you but as with Warcrys demise you can see which way the winds blowing on this one and it sucks.

>>95986140
I thing /tg/ has the most boogyman-centric culture of any board, the amount of people I've been accused of being is insane.

>>95985639
models are cool the lore is just retarded reddit schlock

If you played AoS despite hating it instead of just playing 6th/8th/9th age/wap you are a spiritually weak queer and should stay in the fag box

>>95986444
from what I've seen, 4th flopped hard the second the first week initial hype ended. The launch box was vaguely fair value for contents (more minis than the 40k leviathan had) yet the second anyone looked at any of the rest of the AOS boxes it was like "yeah... I'm not buying an army"
I got skaventide for 169 usd for 2 half-armies. That's $80 per half-army. But then if I wanted to get another tiny skaven box a la carte it'd be like $60 for some random piece of shit rat that's just 5% of an army. screech ratchode was $136 so almost twice as much as the skaven rat army costed.

Most players did what I did and just said "oh, I guess I'll just keep these 2 for hobby projects and spearhead vs spearhead game armies. I won't actually complete them, 70 rats is plenty I have zero interest in paying $400 to have to do 100 more similar rats"

And it's not like skaventide accomplished anything as a loss leader, it was still far too big and too expensive so regular game stores (target, barnes and noble, walmart, etc.) never shelved it or anything, so it didnt even work as an intro-drug to mainstream AOS.

It's a shame, the AOS sculpts aren't bad, but it feels like dogshit as a game. It doesn't have the army game depth of WHFB to encourage someone to buy 100 models, they're too complex and hard to paint to actually want to paint 100 of them, and yet by intentionally avoiding being a skirmish game (like super-warcry), they avoid becoming mainstream accessible.

Warcry suffered badly from being seen as just like 4-8 model games with boring generic bands of hobos. Sure, that's easy enough to paint, but GW can't make a profit when you can make a whole warcry army off one single box of ogre gluttons and ending your hobbying. Infinity-the-game did games with often 20 models per army, which would've been more exciting as a hobby than "just do these 5 guys"

>>95986543
Yeah i am a flesh eater courts player -mostly because its one part of aos's lore i genuinely like- and they had a dual box with skaven in 2nd edition so i had a bunch of shit to go with skaventide like a warp lightning canon, rat ogres and so on so it was a more substantial thing for me but since then all i've bought was a screaming bell mostly because i wanted to paint a screaming bell.

>>95986543
* and I know "spearhead" is their attempt to do the scale the game should've been from the start, halfway between warcry and smegmar-proper, but spearhead removed 100% of the army building and customization, 100% of the replayability, 100% of the depth (since it's not a skirmish game if your army has only 3 or only 4 units, that's only 3-4 fights or shooting maximum, BORING) and simplified the game to such an extent that it's not worth playing (the winning strategy for each spearhead has already been solved about 10 minutes after it comes out, so it's not really even a wargame)

So all spearhead really does is provide a shitty experience that discourages users from creating their own super-warcry 20-30 model AOS-skirmishing system because spearhead already exists.

>>95986034
Limited runs most likely use aluminium moulds, which are much easier to manufacture

>>95986584
Funny thing is i know for a fact from someone in the supply chain that warcrys dead because Spearhead is intended to replace it and start people on aos models rather than aos adjacent.

>>95986543
same issues as 40k, but doesn't have an IP that people care about so it actually reaps the rightful wages of being a dogshit overpriced game

What is TOW doing differently from whfb, if they had to kill fantasy in the first place for aos. Genuine question.
>t. zoomer

>>95985808
This seems reasonable. Also there’s people like me, who left the hobby when GW killed fantasy and returned when they brought it back. I have 0 interest in AoS and never wanted to try it because I read some of the lore and it was beyond awful.

>>95986002
You sound literally retarded
The models for the heroes include several heroes, it's the same size big mold that has multiple hero sprues in it. Then instead of selling the single kit for 60ish bucks, they sell each of the four heroes on the one mold for 42 bucks a pop. They over double their money

>>95986537
Kek

>>95986696
Warhammer Fantasy took up half of every games workshop store and sold less than the paints. That was it really. It didn't have a demand at the time because fantasy was in a slump and while The Lord of the Rings did revive interest in fantasy guess what? GW ended up making a lotr wargame that also took up space in the same stores and sold a shit ton more. Which is why its still supported to this day.

WHFB sold books, people loved the setting but it was very expensive, harder for kids to learn and you just needed a lot more models for a reasonable game compared to 40k that you could technically run back then with a HQ unit and two boxes of troops. I remember being like 12, buying a box of tomb kings skeles and a box of horse riders and a hero unit and bringing them to my store and being laughed out of the store by the proto greybeards for thinking that was enough to play with.

Nowadays more people know of the setting from total war and so far the TOW stuff seems a lot easier to get into when FLGS's have the big batallion boxes but back in the day the red box WHFB battallions were gone after like a week and online/warhammer world online in most regions.

But the key difference is go into an actual games workshop and you will see 40k, middle earth, aos and necromunda but very little TOW because its not treated the same and seems to have far less of a burden on stores in terms of limited shelf space but also as a specialist game it only having a smaller audience of sickos is expected and not a failure.

Which is ironic because nowdays thats really GW's issue with age of sigmar. Takes up too much space, isn't selling product and definitely doesn't come close to 40k's numbers.

>>95986696
The biggest thing that killed fantasy was the way the game was structured. You were forced to take hordes of 30-40 man units to make them work well, and at the same time GW sold many of these units in boxes of 10. And they were more expensive per model back then in those boxes than they are today. So to make even a single unit here in Canada I’d say witch elves. You were looking at $180-240 for just the plastic before any costs of paint, glue etc. and that was for one unit. Now GW is selling properly sized kits of 20 ( for elites ) - 40 models (for chaff) for the $100 cad before third party discounts. It’s far cheaper to get in today than it was back then not taking over a decade of inflation into account at all. Also GW didn’t actually support fantasy for years before killing it off, which is something they seem to be fixing this time around.

>>95986741
>Warhammer Fantasy sold less than the paints
This is a straight up made up lie that keeps being repeated. With the variation of selling less than the tactical kit being thrown in sometimes too. There has never been a source for this, it just keeps being parroted by retards.

>>95986696
Lack of sales. The perry brothers did an interview about the history of the company last year and a lot of people were shocked when they said Necromunda was made as a one and done boxed game but proved so incredibly popular it was actually the second pillar of the company after 40k. But it was produced by a third party that went under, the license defaulted to GW and they simply didn't have the resources, production space or developers to support another game along with 40K and WHFB. 40K already existed as their sci-fi game in the 41st millenium and made the most money so Necromunda was cut and WHFB was kept around assuming that covered sci-fi and fantasy. But as they Perry's said this was a big mistake and thats why -after expanding their production facilities- Necromunda came back and is more popular than ever.

People love the world and themes of WHFB but simply not in the audience a wargame that supports the whole company requires. Its a niche that honestly fits better in videogames. The fact we never got a Dragons Dogma or Dark Souls clone in the setting is kind of surprising at this point.

>>95986753
Peachy talked about it on the Painting Phase before he left.

>>95986730
Try thinking about this for more than 30 seconds and you might figure out why your post is retarded

>>95985615 (OP)
I joined the hobby this year and decided to go for Old World because Sigmar looked like D&D slop

I am also not alone in this, I am 25 years old and there are a ton of young guys at ToW events in my region (germany).

>>95986753
The chapter house financial statement kinda makes it pretty damning

>>95986796
The chapter house financial statement that was linked here showed that depending on the product whfb sold 1/3-1/4 as well as 40k. Not less than chaos black or a tactical squad. Like I said, the statement is a pure unsourced lie parroted by retards who will defend it but never provide a source validating it.

>>95986696
TOW has a different IP name, and the fantasy battle title was pretty fucking despised even before the entimes, think maybe towards the later half of 6th edition. Anyways, there's a reason why GW doesnt like 10 year long editions anymore.

>>95986623
yup, they literally created spearhead because then they get $150 from a walk-in looking for something smaller than the real game, instead of them buying a $50 warcry band - and the spearhead box is sized to make people feel like "well I've already gone this far and wasted this much money already, I might as well try out the big game now"
That and because "just buy this battleforce it's basically an army in a box" was still too much for the moms who purchase the majority of starter sets GW sells (because a battleforce is like $250+ and FOMO unavailable to encourage scalpers for maximum GW profits, the battleforces are both outside mom's price range and not with big enough selection to find that army her kid was gushing over)

Warcry was literally killed off by spearhead intentionally because it was too customer-friendly. Someone could buy a squad and play it happily like a $50 boardgame instead of spending $400 realizing "my AOS army is bringing me no joy at all and I'm this far gone I'd better go in another 400 on 40k or AOS-army-#2.

It's smart business but it makes the hobby not worth participating in as a customer without 3d printing.

>>95986140
>janny
>a boogeyman
there's a long documented history of jannies shitting up this board for decades.

>>95986140
This website is a genuine ghost town with the same people in them ad nauseam. Dead internet theory is a genuine reality.

>>95987378
Well that and the CIA and Mossad glowies on /pol/ trying to mk ultra each other into killing indians.

>>95985615 (OP)
the lore of AoS seems to be so-so but I really like the art and the models for AoS. The rules are even quite decent for a mainline GW game.
Pic related

>>95985615 (OP)
How many threads about this same topic do you need to make per day before your autism is satisfied?

>>95987671
>Every guy is a single boogeyman out to attack me, the main character of real life.
You mental health is not your fault but it is your responsability.

>>95987676
Hi Polish janny.

>>95987793
Seriously no banter talk to a family member or something before you get convinced ChatGPT is in love with you and wants you to kill yourself to join her in some isekai or some shit this behaviour is not normal and i'm not going to reinforce it.

>>95986140
yeah, the spam's annoying but this is my first time noticing somebody convincing themselves of this in real time, I'm witnessing somebody give themselves mental illness as it happens, it's amazing
>>95979748
to
>>95985893

>>95986471
it's a cheap way for autists to dismiss yucky opinions and there's a critical mass of them, I think fundamentally it comes down to GW being a bit of a shitty company so there's some indefensible stuff they do, but its the one minis wargamiung company those smelly freaks at stores have access to

if it were all sunshine and rainbows they wouldn't have to be so deranged and could mount an actual argument as to why GW is love GW is life

>>95986320
>Watches video.
>Opinions in this video solely based on the lack of in person pre-orders from this Canadian LGS.
>Proceeds to declare Grand Cathay a failure, even though the damn battalion boxes are sold out everywhere else.

That's like a random Gamespot store saying that "Call of Duty is Dead!" because nobody came in to place any pre-orders.

>>95987676

It’s entirely possible for /tg/ to host someone like pic related. Especially when you consider the old proven discord raid groups, gw coming in here for god knows what, and the whole cultural war fiasco. Either way this board, and the majority of this website is shit.

>>95987972
Nooo you weren't supposed to actually investigate and think critically, just accept my ragebait premise and let me grift!!

>>95988004

>>95987972
tbf it's rather purposeful clickbait and that channel has a history of underselling TOW.
I will say I have heard some other people say Cathay didn't sell well at their LGS, which does lead to an interesting theoretical trend if nothing else, where TOW sells well on the GW store but doesn't do well at these LGS for whatever reason but there isn't enough evidence to surrport that viewpont.

>>95988043
Total War made Tomb Kings popular with the kids, some armies got to be the least popular may as well be the none western culture as usual.

>>95988043
Those guys sell at GW prices. Both the discounter stores in my city sold out of Cathay. And I don’t mean the battalion box I mean everything. And they are much bigger stores than lords of war.

>>95988069
>Total War made Tomb Kings popular with the kids,
You can say it made Warhammer Fantasy popular with the Kids I'm not sure the Tomb Kings got way more popular due to their TWW appreance than any of the other factions that showed up in that game

>>95988103
Kids love skeletons. How else do you spook fuckboys? fuckin' dwarfs?

>>95988179
maybe Chorfs

>>95987894
Anon, I've had the belief that there is a janny here starts arguments and ban people who argue with them for fucking years
It's just like learning mods shove an extra fucking random character in the captcha.

>yucky opinions, gw
It's weird you're lumping me in this, because i'm fervently anti-GW, i hate AoS. but i'm fucking capable of basic fucking pattern recognition to know that the moderation crew are powertripping losers. and it wouldn't surprise me if they started shit here, because they very clearly get into fights on other topics in other threads.
in my comment i point out that GW fucking hates khorne it's why they produce shit fucking models for them. does that sound like james glazing.

>>95987882
Wait a moment, I remember you, you were samefagging, while calling Indian racial slurs.
you understand that when people write they sound like themselves.
you gonna ban me for repeating your insults back at you again?

>>95988336
>Wait a moment, I remember you
No you don't because this never happened. You are some kind of schizomaxxer who needs to talk to a doctor. You are not the protagonist of real life, there is not a cabal out to get you. This is abnormal behaviour.

I think 40k and AoS are on the decline, at least a little bit. 40k has so many supply and balance issues. The last few editions being complete restarts have also hurt the game. The updates change everything constantly, and the game has lost more and more appeal through rules bloat and poorly playtested armies.

It is sad to say, but AoS has a better rule set than 40k. AoS maybe could benefit from being a pseudo skirmish game more where you have less models but some more rules to compensate. It doesn't help that AoS was generally cheaper to start than 40k depending on your army, but now newer releases have gotten more absurdly priced. It is cheaper to get the Old world orcs and goblins to proxy as gitmob than get the actual models.

>>95988348
>schizo schizo schizo schizo.
What didn't happen?
i got banned, that's true.
i was called an "ESL Dalit."
I've entered into a number of arguments with this Janny and just like say noldorfag he writes the same way every time.
you're laying it on thick, like you always do.

since i have you here, why don't you post minis.

>>95988382
i think this guys just an indian guy whos mad at someone who dont exist lmao

>>95988391
Bro i don't even know what a "dalit" is.
and you still haven't posted minis.

>>95988360
>40k has so many supply issues
Oh no friend, no no no, you misunderstood. GW is running the Hasbro/Wotc playbook. Its called fomo and its very intentional.
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3QLEc9z_yQ
its talked about here by store owners. They are a toy company first not a hobby/game company.

>>95985615 (OP)
ok so basically AOS 4th raped the game hard and killed all interest in it because the rules are that bland and shit.

>>95985615 (OP)
TOW died out in my area. Maybe there are people playing it with their 1 or 2 friends in a garage in the city but other than that not a peep

>>95989905
pretty much expected considering instead of the miniatures company releasing new miniatures, they re-released ugly terrible 30 year old sculpts with no updates and fixes for nearly full price.

The rules of warhammer fantasy didnt need changed, the problem was the miniatures just needed new sculpts like the new skaven, new undead, new chaos warriors and new lizardmen and new high elves (minus the cow helmets)

>>95985615 (OP)
>i see a couple of blokes playing TOW at my locals and havent seen a single aos game being played
Really worthless anecdotal evidence but here goes
>me and my buddy have now gone 4 different days at our local GW to play TOW
>not seen a single AoS game
>lots being painted however

>>95987972
I like those dudes, but they are TOW haters and even 'jokingly' admit it themselves

>>95990087
>>95986320

You keep making this thread.

>>95985969
Kill team is a good game, but even it gets ass blasted by Old World.

AoS used to be a simple beer and pretzels game with tons of armies and frequent new releases. Then they turned it into another tournament balanced competitive borefest like 40K and started removing more armies than adding.

>>95985615 (OP)
In the last 3 months I’ve seen AoS played exactly once, my FLGS runs a lot of tournaments and has a big competitive scene. The AoS tournament they ran last weekend had such a low player count the owner was emailing people to see if anyone was free to enter (for free I’d add). I’ve seen about 4-5 TOW games so make of that what you will.

>>95985615 (OP)
Anecdotal. My FLGS has regular AoS days and events that says sell out while they rarely run TOW events. Last one had 4 attendees. You will see many such cases, some places where a GW game isn't even the most popular

>>95986206
>Then the few remaining AOS players have to watch Old World being a much more fun to play wargame with significantly cheaper models - and having two fantasy games out at same time cannibilizes sales so GW feels even less incentive to give stuff like idoneth deepkin anything more than 2 foot heroes nobody has fucking wanted in 10 years when they're missing crab knights and things.

I think AoS is a better game but Fantasy is the better setting

>>95990270
It might be local bias, but here I see AoS both in similar amounts. However, I noticed that some online stores have lots of Old World boxes on deeper discount as usual, probably to get rid of some overstock. (Not super deep discounts, but 23-26% instead of the usual 20%)
In fact, I am hoping to get myself some beastmen that cheap too, because so far all previous factions appeared in the "sale" section too. Wish me luck.

>>95986753
Several ex GW employees have confirmed it.
Also if it was selling so well, why would they cancel it?

>>95985615 (OP)

Here's to getting you back into the loop, TOW is an unmitigated sales disaster, AOS outsells it massively.

>>95985615 (OP)
It's been like 15 years and Warhammer Fantasy fans are still bitter and aggressively shit on AoS at every opportunity. I don't think I've ever seen a fanbase so dedicated to attacking a successor before, you have to give them credit. I know a lot of AoS fans blame the videogames for it, but the hatred was there long beforehand.

>>95985615 (OP)
Stop trying to make the death of AoS happen. It's not going to happen.

>>95985615 (OP)
>>95985969
the fact that AoS is more expensive proves that the demand is there to justify it. GW isn't trying to kill their own games, it would be cheaper if there was less interest meanwhile the old world stuff is on bargain bin tier pricing months after being introduced

>>95985969
>Start S2D in late 3e because I heard they were cheap and easy
>Get a viable 2k list lightning-fast thanks to the spearhead and battleforce
>Now I need a Nexus Chaotica and one of the bulk endless spell boxes (the faction ones apparently suck) and am strongly advised toward Belakor and a fucking Okoii doomstack's worth of Varangard for the same viability my collection had in 3e
If I wasn't worried about Grogs punching me in the face over it I'd buy square bases in a heartbeat but now it jist looks like I'm selling it all.

>>95990342
Nobody cares for the incomplete numbers from some random US stores.

>>95990339
they got spooked by the chapterhouse lawsuit
>>95990342
Most of the sales are online and it seemingly keeps selling out on the preorder/initial releases so either this list isn't properly representative or is missing a massive piece of the pie. Also, BT is 2nd here but regionally I've never seen it played and only seen it in one physical shop.

>>95990357
What evidence do you have to provide?
Without direct numbers from GW it's one of the few things we can rely on

>>95990362
>rely on

You miss my point. Because we don't have complete numbers of independent stores and also no numbers from GW, we can't rely on those numbers we have at all. That's the thing. It's totally incomplete and nowhere near the full picture, so any conclusions drawn from this are guaranteed to be faulty.

>>95986753
>Ex GW staffer Peachy spoke about the low sales of TOW confirming paint sets sold more
If you were actually around at the time you’d know this. I’ve posted this in so many similar threads there’s no point but GW mismanaged WHFB hard especially over 7th and 8th.

>>95990337
It probably is, I think some places overbought Khemri which just isn’t as popular as Bretonnia when ToW launched.

>>95990350
People are still mad at how GW handled the end times and the change over. A good amount of people I know just kept playing WHFB and then bought AoS. I like AoS models I just can’t get into the lore.

Since germany is a prime warhammer location, probably the most important besides Britain, I can attest to AOS and ToW being on the same level of popularity. This is mostly due to warhammer fantasy being a huge larp thing and germany being a grug country.
AoS is severely hated here because they removed the Empire from it as well.

>>95990389
As a fellow German I can confirm this. Fantasy was huge amongst the grogs and hatred for AoS never really went away. If they don't mess up ToW somehow, it will get really big here again.

>>95990373
So this thread and related speculation is completely pointless

>>95990401
I live in frankfurt and it is huge here. We got monthly events and 30+ people tournaments every 2 months at least. Even the Warhammer store, who was AoS clay has started to fold. I remember how they tried to shill me into buying AoS when I got my Bret box.

>>95990374
What's the vid called ? I find the whole end times / aos launch era pretty interesting and would like to know more

>as a fallow German
>i live in frankfurt

>>95990483
As if Frankfurt is any worse than other big-ish cities or towns.

>>95990483
>fallow
you posting a selfie m8?

>>95990389
>due to warhammer fantasy being a huge larp thing
Why is Warhammer a LARP thing? I found the fact that GW decided to license out LARP gear this year kinda weird

>>95990492
People mostly LARP about ever playing it

>>95990480
NTA, there weren't that many with Peachy before he left to do his own thing. I can't remember the specific episode but am 99% certain it's one with other Ex GW staff.

>>95990342
>america
nobody cares you are a tiny fraction of the market nobody designs product in this medium for.

>>95990492
Because people love the setting. It's one of the biggest larp settings in Europe for sure.

>>95985615 (OP)
I'll try to answer this as if it isn't bait (which it most likely is). While we don't have any reliable sales numbers TOW seems to be doing relatively well in Europe and less so in the US. That's probably related to the fact that more 'grounded' fantasy in the style of Tolkien or other earlier settings are more popular here together with a knowledge and appreciation for our own history - hence why Empire miniatures are so popular (although it also helps that cheaper proxies are available for most units that end up looking better than GW's).

AoS is much more in the direction of American Freakshit that was made popular by recent D&D editions and multiple layers of very bad interpretations of the fantasy genre through bad young adult novels. Less focus on worldbuilding or more "grounded and realistic" characters and instead much more on colourful creatures and Marvelesque / 'cool' factor figurines that look like OC inserts.

Also replying to >>95986696 I think TOW is doing better now compared to WHFBG because the setting has much more brand recognition in Europe thanks to successful vidya, on top of it being slightly easier to get into. It's still ridiculously overpriced, but you don't have to start the hobby off with specific army books and guess your way through the process of building an army. That also goes for other wargames and online tools help out as well. For example, I just started on a small dwarf force for MESBG and I've only had to use a free online tool to figure out what miniatures I should get to have something functional on the table. With such ease of access for TOW then freakshit will lose out on the better continent.

Pretty sure every game in tabletop will either fade away or get reset at some point, GW games more so.

AOS suffers from wanting to reference TOW while setting itself apart, sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't.

Honestly games like Warcry etc should have been a clearer path to AOS

>>95986741
>Warhammer Fantasy took up half of every games workshop store and sold less than the paints
Yeah after years of neglect and a range refresh that literally replaced morely, Goodwin and perry sculpts with nu sculpts that where trash

>>95990520
The miniatures are "just ok" though

>>95986786
>>95986786
Peachy is a literal who, he wouldn't have that kind of info

>>95990558
He worked at most departments and would definitely have some idea of what was going on

>>95990558
>n-n-n-n-nobody can counter my internal narrative
>this guy who actually worked there in multiple departments can and has
>a-a literal who?!?!? am i being attacked??

What are you doing here man? defending some brand loyalty purchase on 4chan like common /v/ermin defending a videogame console? you are somebodies son be ashamed.

>>95990558
>>95990572
You can assume that anecdotes like this got shared between employees, no matter if they are working in finance or not.

>>95990572
thought he managed a GW then was a batch painter?
>>95990579
nah I just don't trust weird faggot joutubers

>>95990389
germany is prime AoS turf. ToW barely gets players. i have seen a single guy with an unpainted tomb kings army looking for a game like half a year ago, but he hasnt been seen since then.

t. used to organize 30+ players AoS turnaments each month

Is Rob having a melty because AoS flatlined in 2023 again?

I want to use legendary lords in my warhammer games
The Old World is so fucking gay man

>>95990596
I hope you realize that tournament players are probably the least likely to pick up a game like fantasy/ToW, no matter where you are.

>>95990611
i think he just switched over to TOW and is now attempting the same with HH

>>95990639
tow cant get casual players

>>95985615 (OP)
My local area at least hasn't seen a single TOW player, I'm a regular at my local GW and the FLGS nearest me. The FLGS doesn't sell minis of any kind, but I have never seen anybody buying TOW stuff at my GW, let alone any games at either. Meanwhile Spearhead is booming, with the GW maxed out at 10 players every wednesday, and the FLGS gets Spearhead, AoS, 40K, and Dropfleet Commander. The closest I've seen is one of my mates getting the cathay stuff for his Cities of Sigmar army.

>>95990707
The spectrum is bigger than hardcore/tournament players and casuals. What about people that like to play narrative games, who are invested in a setting in a hardcore way, but not the waac type. Old World is a game for them.

>>95990779
then why are they not playing the game?

>>95990795
>Playing in the store

Anon, you can assume that there are dozens of guys playing at home in their garage, basement or in a club for every store player you might know.

>>95990801
who mentioned stores?

>>95990778
Why would I play in the place that killed my game?

>>95990596
Well I live in one of the biggest cities of this country (Frankfurt) and the only place where people play AoS is in the local GW score because they have a "no Old World" policy

>>95990596
>germany is prime AoS turf
Unrelated, but I find so interesting how each european country relevant to the matter has their own flagship GW game. KT is huge in Spain, for example, with tournament attendance even reaching higher numbers than the US during '21 Edition (they're lower than the US after '24).
>Inb4, those are tournament stats, not sales!
Fair, but it's rare visiting an lgs and not seeing people play KT. The tournament attendance rate just supports this claim.

>>95990868
Huh, interesting. What causes this phenomenon you think ?
Where I live things are pretty 'normal' : 40k first, followed by AoS, followed by tow (and at least to an extent HH), followed by all the sidegames.
As much as people like to shitfling on tg, irl I've seen all main games get good play, and even the sidegames see decent succes.

>>95990833
You are implying stores, because otherwise you would not have any chance to know who is playing and who not.

>>95990778
>gw
>players
you are about fifteen years out of date mate. Update your files then larp again.

>>95990897
>this nigga doesnt have a club to play at
>there are no whatsapp groups in his community
fuggin kek, are you a fucking tourist?

>>95986140
Nah, go check /pw/ that's some true bogeyman schizophrenia, Robert, iyofag, sashaschizo, ojama, peepfag, bitchtits, many many more

>>95990896
>What causes this phenomenon you think?
Not too sure, I'm guessing ease of access? Spain has a huge variety of wargames being played (my usual lgs always has six different pairs all playing a different game each, which I know is anecdotal, but still there) as well as plenty of grognards still playing Fantasy and 40K 3rd Edition. Also, lots of historicals since everyone loves the tales of the Reconquista and the Spanish Tercios.
The only game I haven't seen anyone play is Horus Heresy, probably because it's been almost a decade and no rules have ever been translated (which is a shame since 40K's spanish translation is very well regarded).

>>95990856
>local GW score because they have a "no Old World" policy
Do they not sell Necromunda or HH as well?

>>95990947
That and no facist paintjob defaults like black templar or kreig that the spanish fash crowd love.

>>95990910
>WhatsApp groups

Grandpa, people use discord these days.

>>95990955
Shoo, culture warrior, shoo

>>95986746
Nobody used 30-40 man units except maybe Skaven. The rank bonus capped out 20 models, so you would have 20-25 models in a rank-and-file unit. Units that didn't care about the rank bonus like elite units usually had less than that. And of course cavalry outside of Bretonnia was always just 5-10 models.

>>95990339
>Also if it was selling so well, why would they cancel it?
They didn't cancel it, they merely rebranded it. You have to understand that the lore and rule changes is completely irrelevant from the business side of things, AOS was at the start selling most of the same kits Fantasy did.

>>95990350
>15 years
>AoS first edition was released in 2015

Anon, I think your math skills kinda suck.

>>95990639
Every personal experience I've had with OW players is that they say they're casual and care about narrative but then they act like hardcore tournament meta sweat players, constantly complaining about their faction being shit or asking for rules updates from GW. Whenever the OW players show up to play at the local wargaming club, they get loud and angry at each other, while minmaxing and measuring millimeters.
AoS and 40k players, by contrast, let people know if they're tournament sweats, and even the sweatiest meta players are nice and cordial. People play by intent and don't bother chasing every micro-advantage they can get by rules lawyering like the OW players do.
To take an example, last weekend, me and another guy played a casual game of 40k, rolled up a mission from the new mission pack and used one of the terrain setups GW recommends in their tournament companion because we didn't want to think to much about it. The OW players came by because they were starting up, and basically laughed at our terrain setup because he thought it looked bad (despite being all painted plastic terrain and smoke effects, so the field itself looked pretty nice). After we finished up our game, I walked by the OW tables to check out what was going on (there were two tables, and on one two guys were arguing about rules). There were maybe three pieces of terrain used across both tables and the guy who had laughed at our table was playing with half-built, unpainted empire models, and was in the process of whining about how shit and expensive his units were in points.

>>95990356
Why would a grog punch you, anon? Just put them on squares and play some fantasy, you won't get assaulted.

>>95990896
>>95990947
My guess for Spain in particular is that Infinity (which comes from Spain) primed a whole bunch of people for tight and potentially highly competitive skirmish games, and then Kill Team came along and was part of a more cherished IP and actually cheaper than Infinity. And in some ways a tighter ruleset, e.g. I think movement and actions are probably more solid in KT than in Infinity even if unit abilities are more interesting in Infinity.

So I think you had a crowd that was super ready to embrace competitive skirmish gaming which KT provided in a very accessible form. KT obviously doesn't have to be played as ultra-sweaty ultra-competitive, but it can be, with basically solved initial moves on certain layouts, and may well be GW's current best competitive game.

>>95991447
All that effort to type up some schizo fantasy, impressive.

>>95991447
There is a weird self-hating thing with some TOW players where they view being competitive as a negative state somehow yeah. There's a proper groggy old fuck who makes TOW videos called Dr. Luke Blaxill, legit an actual Oxford university academic, but at least he can distinguish between he's moaning that Warhammer has lost the SOVL it had in the Middlehammer years and when he's saying 'OK I'm taking this list to a tournament so it's meta as fuck and as optimized as it possibly can be' A lot WHFB players don't seem to be able to make that separation so they want both simultaneously.

GW spregs are the funniest and utterly most pathetic chanfag subhumans to seeth & knuckledrag their mouthbreathing corpulent masses through this world. This threads are pure fecal gold.

>>95989933
the old sculpts are the appeal. building new sculpts like those for AOS are a nightmare. I want to get into TOW just so I can build and paint some basic models for a change instead of every piece of cloth and tool having 45 different layers of textures

>>95991794
you're the minority, hence TOW sales being so bad. 99% of people don't want fingerpaint quality featureless minis, particularly not when they're asking $85 for 40 ugly featureless goblins which come with so little on the sprue they should be $20 a box.

>>95991794
GW didn't get good at making plastic models till like 2006 and a few of the TOW armies predate that and look like ass. Namely Tomb kings and High Elves

>>95991794
Greytider spotted

>>95990856
>city with highest immigrant background
>plays TOW

KEK

>>95991820
Its totally unsurprising that disgusting fat American mutts like yourself disparage soulful old quality sculpts in favour of flashy gay overstylized WoW shit a la modern/AoS sculpts.

>>95992163
They can't help it man, they don't really have any culture of their own outside of brand worship and subversion of other peoples creations.

>>95992163
Anon, statistically you're either Brazilian or Russian, you have no right to call other people mutts

>>95992204
I am literally a full blooded 100% European with blue eyes, born and raised in Europe. Cope and seethe, mutt.

>>95991447
Honestly, I believe it. The grogs in the Warhammer Fantasy make me not want to get into it outside of playing with one of the fellow zoomers that bought into it. Like, I'd basically just be chilling with dudes my Dad's age when I could just play Kill Team.

As an aside, TOW players, will two of this box + square bases be enough to field as a real army? The minis are free, but it's more of a "will this be worth the time?" kind of thing. I want old ass sculpts to paint up with contrast.

>local LGS
>extra copies of multiple Underworlds boxed expansions and Darktide hogging space
>new flop LOTR edition and way too many campaign books white dwarf and old edition codex on the wall
>two warcry heart of ghur and some teams
>all specialist games on a clearance sale, owner says he can't sell them especially
>only half of the new 40k releases and maybe 1/3rd of the AoS shit he says GW stiffs them
Not even the decency to stock my Blood Bowl but I'll keep supporting this garbage

>>95990362
The evidence, in this case, is self evident. The Old World must be selling well as many of it's products are frequently out of stock. If it were selling poorly, Games Workshop would not be pumping money into making new products for it.

>>95992375
>local local game store

>>95991885
Not even, it's more or less that I want to just have easier to assemble minis. I want them to be perfect, so putting together the Stabbas with their simple poses and few pieces was quite enjoyable and it got me to the painting quicker. Whereas with painting prep alone, these giant AOS kits take so much time; even before you pick up a brush compared to shaving off some big mold lines and filling some gaps.

Pic related, so many mold lines and still missed some. Sometimes a simple pose and a simple kit can be just as good as the opposite.

>>95990342
Uh yeah dude. A list that has whatever the fuck Bones is on it, but not Bolt Action, is a great way to gauge sales globally lmao

>>95991388
Hordes you fake grog

>>95992981
I am fairly sure Bones and Nolzur (lol, wtf) are selling greatly in the US, but here in Europe its fucking whatever.

>>95992375
A local store basically has to draw people in by doing events and stuff. They just can't put stuff on their shelves, expecting people to come by themselves to buy it, when they can buy it for the same price or usually less from the internet.

If the owner says he cant sell specialist games, maybe you should ask him what he actually does (and did) to promote them in his store, for the playerbase in his town and the surrounding area. My bet would be: not very much.

>>95993068
I don’t even know what bones is. I have never heard of it or seen it at any store here in Canada. That’s my point. Multiple stores with bolt action but idk wtf bones is. It’s probably even more different in Europe. Useless pictures from that dude.

>>95993255
Its Reaper Miniatures. Bones is a sub-range from them, made first from really shitty, bendy PVC plastic for around $1,5 per human sized mini, and more recently, more hard-plastic style material, but not as cheap any more.
Its aimed towards D&D players, with lots of different hero figures, and the classic monster minis as well.
But its not a Wargame in itself, so idk if it has any place on such a list.

>>95985615 (OP)

I am a Games Workshop shareholder and I collect & paint 40k.

Question: can someone explain to me, why GW has two fantasy wargames? Horus Heresy I can understand, since the 40k(30k) setting is so massively popular.

Doesn't running AOS & OW alongside each other, result in more headaches? Logistics, model design, production, warehousing etc. Both games have skaven, elves, lizardmen, ogres etc etc etc.

>>95993364
my dear shareholders, we have one main wargame named "AoS" and one MINOR wargame for EXPERTS, a luxury product for few aficionados named "Old World", in a way that mirrors 40k and Horus Heresy.

When the consumer has bought all the available AoS minis on the market, and is bloated and saturated with all purchases, we now have an extra release valve so they can buy even more products.

These EXPERT GAMES named Horus Heresy and Old World will always come second before our mainline, and we will always make sure they receive bare minimum support made with the resources we spare from the main product lines.

We have plenty of tools to make sure things stay that way, if one of these side games grows too large, we're ready to sabotage it to get it back in line.
A smaller studio, with no decision making power, is in charge of these minor projects.

Best regards,
the management of Games Workshop

>>95993364
>Both games have skaven, elves, lizardmen, ogres etc etc etc.

They wont for long.

>>95993364
Two completely different markets, fat men who wear ralph lauren vs fat men who wear graphic tees

AoSissies... it's over, we lost!

>>95993468
The opposite actually, TOW doesn't have those armies yet but they will eventually most likely.

>>95993952
Exactly the point.
But they wont allow them to exist in both games/with identical miniatures.

You can be pretty certain that at least the Ogres will get removed from AoS without replacement.
Skaven and Lizardmen will be interesting how they solve it, because its doubtful they will sell the older models for less than the AoS boxes of the newer models, but they would do exactly that if they release them in the same pattern as the other ToW boxes.

>>95994002
>because its doubtful they will sell the older models for less than the AoS boxes of the newer models
Why is it doubtful ? Isn't that exactly what happened with StD/warriors of chaos ? I think there's a good chance they just start selling all the now-outdated old sculpts for tow.

>>95993044
I have no idea what you are referring to. Is that some retard stuff they added very late, or something that was super-early on? I played during 5th trough 7th editions, dropping the game after 8th edition was horrible, so never got to experience the awfulness that was End Times.

>>95994386
It was 8th edition that let you fight in three ranks. Min 10 wide and 3 deep. Shut the fuck up talking about what killed the game if you weren’t even there when it died.

>>95994399
Ah, yeah I didn't play much 8th edition before quitting, the charge and movement changes completely obliterated the game and turned into a dice rolling simulator. But by 8th edition the game was already one foot in the grave. Even if 8th edition had been the greatest version of the ruleset to ever exist, it wouldn't have changed anything and the game would have still been axed.

>>95992220
Not the other guy, but that does not change the fact that statistically you are far more likely to be a mutt if you love TOW. Only Spanish browns and Russians love that shit.

>>95994399
adding to anon, yes 8th heavily incentivized large hordes.
if the unit was max width it could fight in one extra rank.
this was further stressed by the fact that models removed in combat couldn't fight.
then you'd get big centrepiece horde filler units like say the plague priest's censor that have his plague monks fearless, so you'd have a blob of 4 frenzied fearless plague monks.
it was in a white dwarf.

>>95994611
>you are statistically more likely to enjoy the better aesthetic if you're not white
you think that but the English don't play ToW and the anglo isn't white.

>>95986537
What if you tried AoS and enjoyed it more than Fantasy so converted over?

>>95994821
>the anglo
Auted yourself as a russian. That was easy

>>95993474
who's who?

>>95985615 (OP)
AOS was DOA, all it had was inertia from people too cucked to move on after they destroyed warhammer and now all it has is denial from the sunk-cost cucks who kept buying in.

>>95985969
>Goblin chariots? No I want some Sunsteala Wheelas
Pathetic

>>95995056
>Auted yourself
Nice work ESL. You can't even use the typo excuse lol.

Tick. Tock, SMEGGIES

>>95997580
>DOA
>10 years later
Lmao what a retard

>>95985615 (OP)
>Is AoS on the decline?
Betteridge's law of headlines

They weren’t joking about necroing dead threads

>>95991388
Not in 8th retard, you literally had to take 40-50 to compete as it got so OP

>>95998009
As I acknowledged earlier in
>>95994464
I was wrong about that, but it doesn't really matter because the game was pretty much already dead by the time 8th edition came out.

>>95986696
>What is TOW doing differently from whfb,
Nothing.
>if they had to kill fantasy in the first place for aos.
That's debatable. When AoS launched it was no more popular than Fantasy.
What happened next though was GW growing explosively with 8e 40k.
Since GW is a much bigger company nowadays, it can afford to put out TOW for the Fantasy diehards.

>>95998488
>What happened next though was GW growing explosively with 8e 40k.

It would be interesting to see an alternative timeline in which GW kept whfb around at that time, without doing AoS and how it would look like right now.

>>95985615 (OP)

>chapter house annual report proves blah blah

Can some nigger here point out which report they're talking about? Because none of these fucking things even Mention Warhammer Fantasy half the time.

>>95985615 (OP)

Time to repost this fucking classic;

1/2

>>95998688

2/2

>>95998702

Bonus round, remember that everything we enjoy now happened Because AoS 1.0 was so Fucking trash.

>>95998739

>>95998702
>>95998739
>we can't definitely prove whfb wasn't selling
I mean, they killed the setting and game. Seems like pretty good evidence, in lieu of actual numbers.

>>95998702
>Prevalence of Horde units since the start of 7th
Factually incorrect, that only became a thing in the wretched 8th edition, 7th edition had zero benefits from having units larger than 20 beyond the obvious fact of having extra bodies.

>>95998996
>they killed the setting and game. Seems like pretty good evidence
Except they didn't do either. They just rebranded both. AoS used both FB lore (it's even fucking named after a dude from FB) with faction leaders mostly being dudes from FB and heavily relied on FB miniatures during the early days. If the setting wasn't popular, there was no need to reference it and it would have been better to make up something completely new, and if the miniatures weren't popular because of their designs then changing the rules was hardly going to matter. AoS was just a marketing stunt gone horribly wrong designed by people who didn't really understand the hobby. It certainly wasn't a completely new game or a completely new setting, even if they wanted to sell it as that.

>>95999074
why would they feel the need to introduce a """marketing stunt""" that completely and fundamentally changed the way the game was played, scrapped and mangled multiple factions, introduced several new ones (most pretty incompatible with the former setting), completely rewrote the lore for 90% of factions, not to mention the entire world, if the original game was doing fine ?

Don't get me wrong, I don't think the issue with whfb was the setting. GW, imo, tried to market AoS as a 'sequel' to fantasy, not as it's own thing (to the detriment of both settings I think, although it was probably financially the right move). But I don't think you can really claim that fantasy wasn't in some sort of financial trouble. You don't pull of a "marketing stunt" on the level of AoS on a healthy product.

>>95999267
While I think it is indeed likely that WFB wasn't in a healthy place, especially after 8th edition, history is also full of companies going full retard and doing insane marketing stunts that completely tank their product despite the fact that the old product was selling just fine. I think the only safe thing to say without actual data on the matter is that WFB was selling less than 40K.

>>95999267
>>95999352

>WHFB was selling worse than 40k.

Then Prove it.

>inb4 "but that information isn't available"

Then stop fucking saying it like it's a fact.

>>95999521
insiders already talked about it. Either look for it or wait for some dude to link it to you. Maybes its already in this thread and someone tried refuting it by seeing no evil, hearing no evil, and speaking no evil.

>>95999521
Wait, are you gonna now argue wfb was more popular than 40k before it got End Times?
Should i pull out a mathematical proof that 2+2=4 too?

>>95999521
anon 40k has been the undisputed king for like 2 decades now, you're reaching critical amounts of cope

>>95999650
It’s genuinely funny how x wing killed itself.

>>95999521
Every WFB product combined and then doubled was selling worse than the averland sunset paint pot. The proof came to me in a dream. It's fine though because now all of sigmar is being outsold by brayherds, which my friend told me and he saw it happening.

>>95999662
It's funny because Star Wars fans deserve less and Star Wars, as brand, is willing to provide.

>>95985615 (OP)
It's quite popular in my neck of the woods. It apparently isn't in yours. What can we learn from this about its overall popularity? Nothing much. There's always going to be local variation here, especially since these are social things and so whatever is "the thing peple play" in one place will tend to be more popular there than other things since what's important is having someone to play with within reasonable travel distance, not what's popular two thousand miles away. If you were old enough to play during 6th you really should be old enough by now to both understand this, and not to worry about what's the cool thing to like. But perhaps it's just that you can take the kid out of High School, but you can't take High School out of the kid.

>>95999521
It's real to him dammit!!1!

>>95999521
>Erm ackshually you need to source that
Numerous ex employees both retail and corporate confirmed sales figures were low
>but ackshually you need datasheets with citations to prove it
What is the cause of this level of retardation?

AoS built up alot of hype with the nighthaunt and basedcast release set. Game was fun to play and had alot of cool models, there was quite afew low model count armies like ironjawz, basedcast, ogres and some others. They then burned all that goodwill with the lotr orc release which they massively over produced, that no one really wanted even if some of them looked decent. They then further burned their goodwill by deleting half the basedcast roster that came from that nighthaunt release. Deleted beasts of chaos which just seemed cruel. Made the rules shittier and put it on this gay "seasons" release schedule like its a video game getting dlc. Also completely subjective but i think alot of people are real tired of the single hero or couple hero release for armies that feel like are on life support and when it finally comes round to get your new army book you get a half assed slop book cover and a token hero for your army thats already like half heros.

>>95986349
I think it's a combination of most people having practically zero exposure to it growing up so it remains incredibly 'foreign' and the tendency for westerners to look down their noses at China for various reasons (some of which are entirely justified, others not so much). And I do think it's a Chinese-specific problem rather than the whole of Asia as well, Japan has well and truly embedded itself in the west's nerd sphere and outside of that generally pretty much everyone at least vaguely knows about samurai and ninjas. A hypothetical Nippon release probably would have gained more traction with Warhammer fans, IMO.

>>95998749
This is straight up what happened
>ToW
>Certain units dominated the game so much, people had to base entire lists around countering them
>Several agreements are required to not turn a friendly match into a shitshow

>AoS
>4th ed drops
>list building is the worst it's ever been
>Chaff is useless, foot heroes are terrible, double turn is even stronger
>combat is too lethal for horde armies to exist
>Faction rules are officially hidden by paywall, making it impressive to even check the stats of the opponents units
>Faction Terrain and endless spells models are required for most armies to make them functional

>>95995056
Russians say "anglosaxi" or someshit like that you fucking trog.

Hating the 'gloid is universal.

>>95999267
that's just a thing the british do, see jaguar
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLtFIrqhfng

>>95998024
It was absolutely thriving in 5-7, it was 8th that was so bad it quickly killed the game off and specifically because of the Horde rule which not only ruined the entire game as a customer (100%+ price increase) but ruined it as a player (no more flanking and strategy and gameplay, just walk hordes forwards and win every fight against a non-horde automatically)

In classic warhammer, the 4x4 block would only get 9 attacks. Hordes meant stretching that to 10x3+ which bumps against that to get 6 swinging 3 ranks deep, so 19 attacks instead of 9. That's more than 100% more damage and counters every possible weapon, mows down elites or dragons or chaff.

The blob was automatically Steadfast so zero leadership debuffs for getting outsmarted and charged in the rear and no matter how many troops died, removing all tactics (the entire point of napoleon combat is out-maneuvering people and exerting force on weakspots and making units get scared and retreat, which 8 removed)

40k's better monthly sales convinced GW retards that money was sitting in wallets un-stolen, so a dumb GW employee had decided making Fantasy units go from 16 models to 30 models must mean +100% more profits per customer. But editions released so slowly that by the time they understood the scope of their massive fuckup, they couldnt release a 9th for several years and goodbye WHFB.

AoS survived because it's just a recoloring of warhammer40k, same skirmish game made for 12 year olds, but with modern sculpts and it didnt have the 30+ unit horde rule which killed WFB. Unfortunately GW retards invented a new horrible lore and horrible setting thinking fantasy needs space marines instead of making a WFB skirmish game with new sculpts. Then TOW brings back the ugly fantasy sculpts and very crappy imbalanced fantasy rules for TOW, when it's only 1% of customers who actually want ugly old sculpts for nostalgia sake (over 80% of GW customers dont even play the games they just paint - so TOW flopped)

>>96002943
We're several years into major russia vs west conflict, we all know how they speak online about Western Europe by now you mong

>>95985615 (OP)
GW has been doing this for decades with individual model lines and games - hyping the newly released thing and letting/forcing the old things to fade. It's their main sale tactic that they have been using since the 90s.

>>95999521
>Then Prove it.
GW killed it and that's just not something you do to something that sells very well.

>>96004636
GW killed several speculative games that sold well, but just didn't make 40K money.

Like, people are still buying models for Mordheim or Battlefleet Gothic today and that game hasn't been supported in more than a decade.

>>96004809
People are also still buing VHS tapes, anecdotal bullshit has nothing to do with popularity

>>95998739
Based AoS

>>96004813
Anon, do you seriously think they would invest in shit like Bloodbowl and Necromunda if it made no money? Both games are very popular, and I find it very unlikely other games like it were not popular.

>>96005169
But we aren't talking about games GW invests in.
We're talking about games GW killed.

>>96004809
>GW killed several speculative games that sold well, but just didn't make 40K money.
In other words, they didn't make enough money.

>Publicly traded companies always make 100% optimal, rational choices based on facts and logic in order to increase profit and never cripple themselves with retarded decisions made by extremely sheltered rich boomers

>>95991466
>and actually cheaper than Infinity
No

>>95991829
retard high elves had the best line, sculpted by jews Goodwin and the minis still look good today

>>96004263
is Russia in the room with you now?

>>96005611
Face it Anon, if your game was earning enough money GW wouldn't kill it.
I know you saw a reddit post of some guy buying 2nd mordheim models 2 years ago, but that doesn't mean anything

>>95986190
Saar GW did not PAY the Indians.
They paid a PR firm who then paid the Indians

>>95990505
> na is the largest single market for Hasbro, GW, Asmodie
> YOU DONT MATTER
lmaooooooooooooooooooo

>>96007613
He's probably correct that the TOW team doesn't care one jot about what GW customers in the US want, however.

>>95990778
> Dropfleet
I can't imagine playing the abortion that is 2.0

>>96001492
I think what most people miss is that the Japanese penetration into the Western cultural sphere started in the 1960s with dramatic films hitting the foreign and arthouse circuit with chanbara and kaiju hitting the b-movie market. By the 80s Japanese cultural products had been in the background for 20 years and most of the fantastical stuff that got exported were things that were easy to ground in Western cultural contexts like ninjas and yokai. At the same time by the 80s Japan embraced a lot of Western fantasy tropes which allowed for a greater back and forth between the two cultures. In contrast, you don't have that history with China and the policies of the Chinese government push the idea exchange towards ad campaigns and marketing pushes from China to the West while curtailing Western cultural penetration into Chinese markets. And that's before you get into the cultural jingoism that is the policy of the Chinese government.

>>96007647
If any Specialist Gane doesn't sell in NA you can bet your ass that game won't be around for long

>>96007809
Wrong faggot

>>95986888
Lol my printer costs the same as a starter box.

Heres some of the mechs I printed these last 4 months.

Suckadick Geedubs

Honest question, gameplay wise what do people see in WHFB/ Old World. Just seems like you push squares in a straight line into your opponents squares and roll for combat resolution

>>95998739
>No proof of WHFB not selling
It's basic logic of the free market. GW isn't going to randomly cull a product that turns a profit that's why they still refuse to supply free rules.

>>96009957
you missed some classes in economics. Companies cut profitable products every day of the last 50 years. If GW feels they'll earn $500 from someone gaining a WFB addiction and $1000 from someone gaining a 40k addiction, it makes perfect business sense to delete WFB so people walking in the store buy 40k instead. GW intentionally gimps any skirmish game like warcry, underworlds, boarding patrols and combat patrols in order to prevent anyone from staying in a game they can play for $100 instead of $1000.

>>96009939
Do you know what a Flank is anon?

>>96010053
>GW intentionally gimps any skirmish game like warcry, underworlds, boarding patrols and combat patrols in order to prevent anyone from staying in a game they can play for $100 instead of $1000.
WHFB was a mainline game with huge investment requirements and 8 editions under it's belt and youre telling me that randomly killed it off so people would buy Space Marines? I will say though your somewhat on the right track with WHFB being a stangant setting with no room to add new models that made sense or didn't break the lore (see late WHFB/ proto AOS models). So creating a new game gave an excuse for them to make new products in the same sense the made Primaris Marines instead of just upscaling them.

>>96009939
It simulates how war was fought going back 200 years to the earliest recorded history.

>>95999662
Why dose this always happen? Halo fleet battles, Warmachine... do people still play Marvel?

>>96009957
>It's basic logic of the free market.
I don't doubt WFB didn't sell well, I was there for the stupid decisions, but you writing this stupid shit about the Kirby era, might as well have a big flashing gif that says "I'm a retard"

>>96009939
In the older editions it was a game about outmaneuvering your opponent, where even the most elite unit could get absolutely fucked by chaff if it got charged in the flank. But awful rule changes and massive powercreep reduced it into dice rolling simulator, which is a big part why the game died.

>>96010141
I think as fans we tend to look at WHFB through the lens of lore or design instead of business. >>96010141 is right in that from a business point of view it was probably more of an opportunity cost decision. Personally I believe that they brought TOW back because they only realized to late that they accidently opened up their own market by letting Mantic and others into the space that WHFB used to fill.

>>95985628
>Total War Warhammer
>AoS takes over WHFB's place after it gets torched
>TWW makes WHFB more popular than ever
>So damn popular we get The Old World and thus resurrecting WHFB
>WHFB players whose game was dead and forced to play AoS jump ship to TOW
>Due to gay lore, gay setting, most models being gay as fuck, higher costs to get in, AoS doesn't pull in that many people
>Meanwhile TOW is pulling in more people thanks to TWW
>Only a matter of time till they complete Kislev and Cathay and move to other factions that deserve expansion
At this point they should kill off Age of Sigmar by making a 2nd End Times with one character using the Realm Gates to go back to the Old World...when the Old Ones were still around and shape history in such way that the inhabitants become strong enough to contain Chaos.

Also in all honesty the only good idea AoS has is the whole concept of the realms but even those were done badly initially and are still bad even when they degraded them to not be extremely vast instead of near infinite.
Let's face it, there is no stakes in AoS.

>>95987596
Yep. Decent rules stuck in a shit setting.

>>96012107

Maybe they can keep using AOS for board/card games and skirmishes. Underworlds seems to sell well for instance.

>>96010508

See pic.

>>96011988
Rank 'n' flank remained a very niche genre after WHFB's passing, and given that GW's business was absolutely roaring without it by the time of TOW's announcement I don't think they probably cared all that much at the top level. I reckon it's more likely that TOW started as a passion project by some Forge World/Specialist Games guys helped along by being able to point to the massively successful Total War games to make their case about a viable audience existing for a relaunch.

>>96012125
Which setting is in question? 6th?

>>95985615 (OP)
>>95985628
Cathay battalion boxes, AJ, and Dice are no longer sold out on GW's store:

https://www.warhammer.com/en-US/the-old-world/grand-cathay

https://www.warhammer.com/en-GB/the-old-world/grand-cathay

>>96012751
ToWdlers were falsfagging several times it sold out at launch only for people to check and see it's still up

>>96010508
Iicensed games are always doomed. In X-Wing's case, they didn't have a way for you to keep giving them money. Say, I want to fly a classic, triple X-Wing list. You spend 40 on the core and 30 more on two more. That's it; I'm no longer a customer. I don't have to buy anything. When I want to paint them, I gave GW money not FFG. X-Wing is a good game but cannot ever survive. There is no way for a company to run a business off of sellling someone 3 - 4 ships once and then not much else. Someone playing Kill Team with citadel paints has likely spent more on that one team that the X-Wing player ever spent on their fleet.

How tf are they supposed to monetize these games besides power creep? It could be an MBA project; how to keep X-Wing making money without it devolving into a bunch of glopp shitto literal-whos and their ugly ships dominating the actual star was ships like Tie Fighters, X-Wings, Etc. I think it's an impossible task; the game took too few models to play.

I think it's actually impossible. No way to keep a game profitable if it's based off a license and that license is not Pokemon. Inb4 Lord of the Rings.

>>96012761
It was sold out... In 24 hours, not immedietly. They've just been restocked now that pre-orders have shipped.

>>96012551
>Maybe they can keep using AOS for board/card games and skirmishes. Underworlds seems to sell well for instance.
All they need to do is to retcon AoS into a spin-off WHAT IF!? scenario while End Times gets retconned into a timeline divergence.

Then bring back mainline Warhammer Fantasy Battles and rebrand The Old World into The Old World Chronicles and expand it beyond the times of Magnus The Pious.

A Great Cataclysm scenario where the Lizzies where at their most powerful and dunking it with Chaos Daemons would be rad.
Or The Ulthuan Civil War erupting and we get Malekith before he became this setting's Darth Vader.
Maybe even a series of books and model sets for Tomb Kings with living Nehekharans and featuring Nagash and him getting multiple models (from his first mortal self, to his Arch-Necromancer incarnation...the one that looked kinda derpy but cool).

>>96013170

I suspect maybe their plan is to keep aging and dissatisfied players in the GW ecosystem by feeding them into TOW and 30K.

Can't imagine they wouldn't do a splatbook and miniatures for the Karl Franz era characters eventually, to sell to the TW fans, nostalgic collectors, and painter crowd if nothing else.

Similarly, I won't be surprised if they expand 30K into a 39.9K with books for the Badab War and the first tyranid invasion and so on.

>>96012820
>It was sold out... In 24 hours, not immedietly
Yeh and then it was magically back 2 days later. Brits must realy love working on Sunday

>>95985615 (OP)

>Newest preview confirms Vampire Coast, Chaos Dwarves, and more Tomb Kings

Age of Smegmar is finished.

>>96013518
You know? I always preferred Ogres being grey-skinned instead of having the same colors as Humans, Dwarfs and Elves.

>>96013518
>Badab War and the first Tyranid Invasion
We already had those. But I wouldn't mind if they returned to those times and expanded on them further.

>>96012611
TOW basically happened because GW management got chewed out by their shareholders for missing cross promotion opportunities when TWWH started printing money. I honestly think TOW was meant to be a second and final grave for Fantasy, but the sales on it ended up being better than expected, so management is begrudgingly stuck with it for the foreseeable future.

The most telling thing about management's attitude towards Fantasy as a whole was the fact that they could have easily transitioned it to a skirmish style game and had the r&f be a secondary mode. Moreover, they could have started giving Fantasy some of the same fixes 40k was experiencing around the same time (ie, consistent rules updates, phasing out metal and plastic).

>>96013701
>TOW basically happened because GW management got chewed out by their shareholders for missing cross promotion opportunities when TWWH started printing money
Lol no, it happned because GW left rank and flank gamespace uncontested and competition started growing in the niche, so they had to move thier fat ass there to suffocate King of War.
ToW was announced almost at the exact same time KoW's new edition was, depsite being compleatly not ready and not coming for 5 more years, just to fuck with KoW

>>96013799
total bullshit. Basically nobody except 0.001% extremists has ever heard of kings of war except as a random popup ad they ignore.

TOW is literally because exactly as that person said, total war warhammer video game suddenly became a top 10 in the world video game series, so it was literally impossible for a GW employee to argue to stockholders that they were definitely not fucking up by having the #1 selling games workshop video game in the world point towards an IP that GW retards had killed off.

It is literally illegal for a public stock corporation to not maximize profits, and funneling video game players into plastic-addiction players was indisputable as a good marketing idea.

Kings of war has never been any competition to GW. They aren't even on the chart. GW has faced competition from WarMachine and XWing and Battletech and Dungeons&Dragons but not at all from 0.0001% audience indie-third-parties.

>>95985615 (OP)
We are winning xisters!
I went down to my local game's workshop where I saw a 50 rich families wanting to buy age of sigmar. The children were excitedly looking at the stormcasts and saying "They look like me!" (some of them were eggs ready to crack like i was at that age) but then some evil chuds said "That game isn't very fun, try whfb or ToW" with his problematic bretonnians (the glorification of catholics is how we get nazi games like trench crudade). And then his skaven playing incel friend said "We'd be happy to teach you a demo", no doubt to groom these kids into neo's like them.

All the parents who were going to buy spearhead boxes backed away and were looking at the ToW games. Thats when I knew I had to do something. So I shouted "DRUMPH IS A CONVICTED FELON" at the top of my lungs. This woke the parents out of their stupor and half of them bought 3 boxes of spearhead each, joined my discord, and the rest clapped.

>>96013580
But anon, the chorfs are for AoS.

>>96013580

>>96014481
>Diaz Daemonettes
They were fucking perfect.

>>96014172
>It is literally illegal for a public stock corporation to not maximize profits
Stop trying to radicalize us by saying things that are true.

>>96014172
>It is literally illegal for a public stock corporation to not maximize profits,
Yeh and it's impossible to prove if a new product is or isn't good for overal profit, so corpos aren't just going on autopilot 24/7.

>>96014172
>It is literally illegal for a public stock corporation to not maximize profits

This varies by jurisdiction, the UK companies act mentions neither profit nor maximization. I mean, your retarded claim isn't literally true for ameritard corps either, but it's espeacially not true for brits.

>>96014203
The sad thing is this isn’t a copy pasta

>>96014977
You are correct in that the most likely outcome of ignoring the success of Total War Warhammer and releasing a way for that to become a source of new plastic addicts would've been either stockholders or board members holding a vote to fire the CEO rather than winning a big enough lawsuit to do equivalent damage

The end result stays exactly the same though. The CEO simply could not ignore that Warhammer Fantasy: the video game was topping steam's video game charts repeatedly over and over again. (and this is in stark contrast to Age of Sigmar: the video game, which averaged 0 players and was thrown onto humble bundle for $0.50 per game a month after launching because literally nobody gives a shit about smegmar setting)

>>96015080
Retard you can't fucking prove if a product that never happened would have been a success or not. There is no law obligating corpos to make million $ decision vased on some faggot's opinions.
James Workshop could just say "we don't believe different audience would translate" and that's good enough for them to not risk it.

>>95986140
>Perryfag
/awg/ here, this one does exist. He posts the same bland "totally a game guys" photos time and again and has a rabid obsession with Never Mind the Billhooks to the point of lashing out at anyone talking about any of the other fantasy rank 'n flank games because "NMTBH Fantasia is all you need". Hes also got a rabid hatred of one guy who hand sculpts his own minis.

>>95986696
Oooooooh boy, this is a big one. The TL;DR is that
>Fantasy is doing well
>Update to 8th fucking breaks the game, avoidance cavalry and gunlines become the meta and magic is obscenely overpowered
>Also cut the points cost of minis as army books update, so you need more
>Also up the price of minis
>Starter set is probably the worst yet, Skaven get an okay deal but the Elves get a really weird mix
>Move to bigger units, 40 - 50 model units become increasingly common thanks to Horde Width
>At the same time advertisement is cut
>WHFB now gets nearly 0 advertising, you need to buy literally hundreds of models at jewdubs prices to have ana rmy
>Painter fatigue is real, if you think its not try painting 100 rank and file minis
>Newer players see WHFB, see the masses of money and time needed, and all the minis they need then see 40K and its (at the time) cheaper entry fee and smaller model count and better balance
>Plus, they know 40K. WHFB is not advertised so its brushed off by new players
>WHFB sales plummet, surprise surprise
>GW decides to just can the entire setting and game instead of, you know, fixing the glaring issues and advertising it
>End Times are rolled out and take a colossal steaming shit on everything
GW killed WHFB through negligence and laziness. Do not let anyone tell you otherwise.

>>96015614
Fantasy was not doing well even before 8th shat the bed. The rot was already deeply set during the later parts of 7th army books, which were very obviously power-creeped to hell and back to sell more models (with the weakest units which sold the worst getting the biggest buffs and becoming the strongest units). And a lot of this power creep was so obvious that it is impossible it was accidental. Good example would be units that are stat-wise identical to ones in other armies just costing less, like Vampire Counts skeletons being cheaper than Tomb King skeletons, there was clear intention to make the new books stronger than the old ones. It's not the sort of thing you do unless you are desperate to move more product. And it practically doomed Fantasy because it's not the sort of issue a new edition can fix unless they invalidate every army book and do a full refresh, which would also be catastrophic because then armies would be stuck without their own books for years.

It unfortunately seems so. Shame, because it's been more fun than 40k for the last few years.

>>96015881
tbqh watching pain dry is more fun than modern 40k.

>all this "8th killed fantasy" revisionism STILL
It's just provably not true, 8th's bloated model count was a reaction to dwindling market interest. This was caused when GW was basically forced to make LOTR and siphon off a huge amount of fantasy wargame interest away from WHFB. Combine that with the 2008 financial crisis and people having to pick a system (normally 40k) and Fantasy was in trouble even before 8th. Admittedly 8th probably didn't help (although the rules were fine), GW actually supported the edition pretty well but a lot of the releases were monsters (the first major expansion focusing on 3k+ games, monsters, and magic was a total mistake), which were functionally unplayable.

>>96015614
If people actually cared about any of that shit 40k would not have survived multiple dog-shit editions. Boring models and creatively limiting setting killed WHFB.

>>96016469
>umm, they were kicking the dead horse because the horse wasn't moving!
lmao

>>96012107
While good in theory, this falls down because AoS vastly outsells TOW so GW would make less revenue

Nobody in this thread is really talking about what really killed WHFB.

LORD OF THE RINGS

LORD OF THE FUCKING RINGS

Games Workshop was selling two realistic-ish fantasy tabletop games, and one of them sucked all the oxygen out of the room.

Eventually the LOTR hype train was dying down, but the damage was already done.

>>96016711
Eh, LotR was more of a normie magnet.

>>95985615 (OP)
It’s because 4.0 is shit. The most interesting rules writing for it was the free Christmas PDFs. It’ll be remembered as the 6th ed of AoS and hopefully ended early.

>>96016711
the reason why is you're a dumbass and LOTR was released in 2001 alongside the movie and it made warhammer MORE popular, as elves and dwarves and orcs and little soldier men became more cool than before the movies. Warhammer fantasy didn't decline in popularity for like 13 years post-LOTR.

Zero "damage was done", dumbfuck.

>>96016808
> it made warhammer MORE popular, as elves and dwarves and orcs and little soldier men became more cool than before the movies. Warhammer fantasy didn't decline in popularity for like 13 years post-LOTR.

citation_needed.jpg

I'm arguing that GW's LOTR outsold WHFB.
I'm also arguing the secondary claim that the high sales of LOTR took sales momentum and community energy from WHFB.

You're arguing that:
1. WHFB outsold LOTR
2. Because of LOTR, the sales for WHFB actually INCREASED overtime
3. WHFB never declined in popularity during a period of time approximately lasting 13 years, "post-LOTR," which I'll start measuring at 2003, the release of the third movie. So, the time period would be approximately 2003-2016.

No, I don't have an exact proof or citation for it on hand, but I absolutely believe that LOTR generally outsold WHFB. I know this is something that GW employees themselves believed. Half of the fucking company magazine was dedicated solely to LOTR. If push comes to shove, yeah, I could prove it.

LOTR outsold WHFB for several years.

Maybe my secondary claim is bunk. But I do know that every product GW makes takes up SHELF SPACE. Physical space. LOTR would take up more

you know what

fuck it

You can just make up shit that engages that autistic part of my brain that demands to type up a response.

> Warhammer fantasy didn't decline in popularity for like 13 years post-LOTR.

Guess what my dude?
WHFB didn't even LIVE 13 years post-LOTR. The company killed it off in 2015 because of low sales.

The people who could see the numbers, had the information before them, who knew their company was leaning closer to bankruptcy, they decided it made more sense to kill the game off and launch a new one.

>>96016945
Yep. GW doing a LotR minis game lead to them directly competing with themselves and WFB lost the battle.

>>96016469
>although the rules were fine
No they fucking weren't, they killed the importance of outmaneuvering and flanking and introduced a bunch of extremely swingy rng factors.

>>96016469
8th very much did. Huge price hikes, a sudden doubling of army sizes, and some of the worst rules to date. Play an army without cavalry, or easy access to line shooting? Lmao good luck. Don't bring at least 3 levels of wizard per 1000 points? Have fun losing.
I was a skaven player, it sucked. All the meta chasers switched over to dorfs and elves or other gun/avoidance cav heavy armies whilst I was left with no way to counter them.
I think the penultimate example was a game vs Chorfs, a Forge World army at the time. I deployed over 200 models and began my attack. When I reached his line, 4 turns later, about 30 survived across, iirc, 4 remaining units. Everything else got blown from the field by shooting

>>96015196
>James Workshop could just say "we don't believe different audience would translate"
And why some investor couldn't just say "Oi, you better exploit that facking IP and sell some bloody minis or you won't live to see next quarter innit."

>>96018210
No they won't lol. Random shareholders don't design products. Stop pretanding you know anything about how public companies work

>>96018252

>>96016610
40k has never yet had an edition where every 10man unit suddenly needed to be replaced by a squad of 30-50 (while changing the price from say $30 per box of 16 to $40 per 10 while instead of getting you a unit, the box gave you 1/3rd to 1/5th of a unit, so suddenly a single unit could cost $120-200 instead of $30)

It was the double knockout of the rules being worse than ever before while army costs went 2-4x that was able to motivate everyone to either quit instantly or play a handful more games and then quit.

And since both the worst rules ever and the price increase were not in army books, they couldn't simply wait 1 year or wait for a FAQ and suddenly the problem would go away. No, it stayed just as broken and quit-worthy for several years while the addicts who already had a large collection (3 units of elf spearmen become 1 horde of elf spearmen, 3 units of white lions merge into 1 horde of white lions) just smooshed there army together and kept pretending things were fine for a bit, but the terrible rules of 8th edition made acquiring New customers impossible to replace any that stopped purchasing.

>>96017041
LotR minis game literally died in the first year. They brought it back years later only after warhammer fantasy had been killed by 8th edition. It's exactly the opposite way, nobody was playing LOTR until the superior tabletop game Fantasy wasn't there to compete anymore.

>>96018478
As people said, the ultra greedy changes were a desperate attempt to get some money out of the already dead franchise.
40k has never been in a situation that bad

>>96013518
>I suspect maybe their plan is to keep aging and dissatisfied players in the GW ecosystem by feeding them into TOW and 30K.
This is unironically the plan because GW has lost a lot of older, experienced players to third-party resin kits and 3D printing. This is also why the Horus Heresy boxes tend to be vastly greater value than their compatriots.

>>96015669
>it's not the sort of issue a new edition can fix unless they invalidate every army book and do a full refresh, which would also be catastrophic because then armies would be stuck without their own books for years
At that time GW had already done that once before with 40k's 3rd edition, and they'd go on to do it again in the future. It's not an inconceivable course of action.

>>96018618
Sure, but it's not a move you can pull if your game is already struggling since it's bound to be unpopular with the pre-existing playerbase.

>>96018492
Hell there were points where a single space marine box was outselling the entire WHFB even back before 8th. Its fucking cope at this point.

>>96013518
You're probably right, but sadly I reckon we're very unlikely to see a '40k Classic' game system with GW's current extreme autism about never ever crossing the streams ever. The original Space Marine range is well on its way to being completely replaced with Primaris units, but xenos armies and the Imperial Guard are basically unchanged.

Personally I think the best case scenario would be for the Horus Heresy range to expand into The Scouring after the firstborn range goes extinct in 40k and produce a refresh of the whole range in the modern scale and then just use the modern models to play the classic editions, it's not exactly hard to get your hands on the rules.

>>96018651
To be fair that single Space Marine box was probably outselling half of 40k as well.

>>96018651
That's an urban legend that has no basis in reality. Yes, 40K was most likely performing way better than FB even before 8th wrecked it completely, but we don't have any kind of official data on the subject, which has given rise to these sorts of baseless rumors. You will also hear "the paints sold more than FB" or even "this particular paint sold more than FB". These too are urban legends where the source is always: "friend of a friend worked at a GW store", because GW corporate was definitely sharing all their sales data with every clerk running their stores.

>>96018651
At least you went with the more believable version of that made up lie, I think people used the sold worse than chaos black in this thread. Regardless, you are both retards.

>>96019362
Nobody ever said it sold worse than a single paint. Just paints in general.
But i guess you realy need to strawman this one

>>96019645

Abaddon Black (anecdotally but in all likelyhood truthfully) the best selling paint and GW's best selling product comes up a lot.

>>96019645
No, you’re the one making shit up. The story you’re repeating has two variants. The tactical squad and chaos black paint. They are both fairy tale bullshit and no one has ever been able to provide a source. The only source ever brought up related to sales is the chapterhouse lawsuit that shows fantasy selling 1/3-1/4 of 40K depending on the product.

>>95990707

Where I live, TOW gets a decent amount. People "graduate" to TOW from AoS once they master the system enough, and the GW store sends them over to my LGS because they don't stock much TOW. We have a good relationship with them, let them know about problem customers or whatever to watch out for.

>>95992347

Yeah, Khorne demons are going to be really good with the new changes, even if a lot of their models are expensive. You'll want a Bloodthirster and some Skull Cannons at some point, though.

>>96021788
Because its all been insider information and various discussions. GW isn't going to outright point out that they had a failed product to fucking anyone because even back in the day companies know that telling your investors you fucked up is a bad thing.

>>95985615 (OP)
People by and large only tolerated AoS because there was no alternative. Once TWWH got popular and Old World released, people realized they could tell AoS to fuck off.

>>96018661
>we're very unlikely to see a '40k Classic' game system
HH retard

>>96018478
shhhh you're gonna trigger the WHFB 8th ed retards

>>96024710
30k isn't 40k, fagtron.

>>96015614
The thing that killed Fantasy was LOTR

>>96016610
If people actually cared about your subjective opinions in the same way then nobody would have played Fantasy after RT was launched.

>>96023353
>source?
>my dad works at Nintendo
Lmao

>>96027411
>The only source that matters is GW saying it
lol. Lmao.