What’s the point of playing generic fantasy setting with tropes done to death? Let me guess, another travelling company of adventurers have to stop the source of all evil, where evil is physically manifested in orcs and goblins?

>>96005836 (OP)
Safe and easy to get into, mostly because you know what you're getting into. Some people are just fine delving into dungeons with swords and fighting off orcs and goblins

>>96005933
It’s childish

This dudes name is chinese melvin

>>96005836 (OP)
If you're so smart, let's see you come up with something non-cliche'd then, OP

>>96005836 (OP)
I haven't read his works, but from a cursory google search this dude seems like a complete ass bandit.

>tropes
low IQ

>>96005836 (OP)
Putting the pasta in an image doesn't make your post any less extremely low quality.
>what is the point
To have fun in a collaborative environment. Having shared touchstones facilitates the 'collaborative' part.
>but I don't like it!
So what? Play with a group that agrees with you, then. You have access to no sublime truth in opening that you're bored of goblins and elves, you have an opinion on a matter of taste.
>>96005999
He's an effective nobody. You could gather that from his whinging screed or his play-acting of masculinity. A dime a dozen contrarian, not even a Moorcock tier one.

>>96005836 (OP)
Because you're playing a game, and the less you have to onboard people about how Glup Shittos aren't elves, the easier it is to get to actually playing.

This is why SF systems are exponentially less popular than Fantasy.

>>96005982
I made an entire stone and sorcery setting with a pantheon of Inuit inspired gods that used a constructed language similar to Inuit languages. I based it on anthropology and archaeology.

>>96006058
In other words, you ripped off the Inuit?

>>96006077
I tried to be ethical about it. I didn’t use their culture. I took inspiration from it.

>>96005836 (OP)
China Mieville sounds like a massive fag. MadcausedBad much? Write something better than cocksucker

>>96006113
He did. Bas Lag beats LOTR.

>>96006099
For what it's worth, anon, "I took inspiration from it" is the equivalent of admitting you're unoriginal and cliche'd to the kind of people who get up your ass about that kind of thing to begin with.

That said, your setting is neat, and if you ever feel the need to upload it, I'd share it with a couple of my anthropologist friends to enjoy.

>>96005836 (OP)
You will never publish a book and your totally original idea has already been done by several people who did publish their books so why do you care?

>>96005836 (OP)
I hate Tolkien but this guy sounds like a retarded fag.

>>96005836 (OP)
>What’s the point of playing generic fantasy setting with tropes done to death?
Fun.

>>96006318
I’m already a published writer.

>>96005939
Playing games is childish.

>>96005836 (OP)
>this fucking thread again
Consider touching brass.

>>96005836 (OP)
The guy in OP sounds like a faggot.

>>96005933
This is the main reason why fantasy is so popular. You don't need to learn the world. You know elves and dwarfs don't get along, goblins are evil and if not are barbaric and magic makes the world turn. Only once people end up delving into the world can they learn about the lost ruins of the dragon kingdom so there is still mysteries for people to discover and can give flavor to the world.

>>96006099
>I tried to be ethical about it, I didn't rip them off, I was inspired by it
You also sound like a faggot. There is nothing wrong with "ripping" something off. You are only going to be disrespectful towards another culture is if you take somebody who is supposed to obviously be Thor and turn him into a race swapped pansy that has half a brain.

>>96005836 (OP)
Different mediums have different rules on what it works. What's good for literature and writing does not necessarily apply for a collaborative game, in which different players have different skill levels and can have more use of well known tropes to implement during gameplay.
The focus of a ttrpg is for the players and GM to have fun, and enjoy the mechanical side of strategy games and group storytelling at the same time, not to blow your mind with original narratives.

>>96005836 (OP)
Who?

>>96005836 (OP)
Sour are the grapes to the palate of the mediocre man.

>>96006469
>The guy in OP sounds like a faggot.
He is.

I do find it depressing that all the arguments in favour of bland fantasy in this thread amount to intellectual laziness. "It's easy" is not a selling point.

>>96006922
It's for elf games that most of play 1 afternoon a week for fun, if that. "It's easy" is absolutely a fucking selling point.

>settings tropes settings literature settings allegory settings
I'd rather focus on games.

his rightness cause triggerdation itt

>>96006922
To be honest, I save my more creative endeavors for personal projects. If my friends just want to play in a default vague fantasy land, that's cool by me, since that means that the few twists I throw in will be all the more effective.

>>96006941
Jesus Christ, anon. You can't stretch to the monumental effort of a game about karate spies, or spacemen, or something?
>>96007042
Thanks for your efforts. Someone has to keep those players off the streets.

>>96005836 (OP)
Traditional games?

Because most people aren't interested in something truly new and different and this gets proven over and over again. Why do you think for example, humans and elves are always by far the most popular races?

>>96007054
So, just so I understand, it's only fantasy tropes that you have a problem with? But sci-fi tropes or kung fu tropes are fine? That seems incredibly arbitrary and stupid.

>>96007054
Yes, it involves more mental energy than people are willing to put in. This is why even Star Wars RPGs that don't have to explain all their worldbuilding and jargon are distant seconds to Generic Fantasyland, and the closest competition has been urban fantasy like WoD or Cyberpunk D&D in the form of Shadowrun.

>>96007096
Fantasy wins the trifecta of being stupid, boring and ugly.
>>96007131
The creatures you're describing can't really be considered people.

>>96007143
Okay, so you just don't like fantasy. Why fucking care then?

>>96007143
>What do you mean you don't have time to read my 110 page setting document before we play?

Reeks of nogames.

>>96006922
>Swelling point
What are you expecting from the table exactly?

>>96006058
So, the same thing that Tolkien did, but you did it with the Inuit instead of the various inhabitants of the British Isles. So you literally just ripped off Tolkien but with a different ethnic group.

>>96007153
The cancerous growth of only the retarded part of the hobby makes it hard for me to find quality products in stores, etc.
>>96007159
If you're just madlibbing around a prechewed amusement park, is what you're doing really a game at all?

>>96007143
Nigga, I'm not reading your dogshit novel about Florpas and Goobgobbers for something that doesn't enhance the actual game scenario I'm going to be playing with my friends on a Saturday night.

Blow it out your ass. Classic Fantasy rules and is 100X more fun and engaging than pseudo-philosophical non-settings. More like Bas Lagging behind.

>>96007171
Doing the same thing but with a new skin it's the gatcha way.

>Imagine caring about the opinion of a Prosecco communist
Even the sociopaths who use and would eventually discard these people don't give a fuck about the dogshit retardation they engage in.
Why should you?

>>96007169
If I play a sci-fi game then I want something like Firefly or Deep Space Nine. If I'm playing historical I want something like Black Sails or Shogun. If I'm playing something modern I want The Shield or True Detective. And while I can't say that my friends and I always win an Emmy it's the attempt that matters. There is grace in our failing.
I don't want to hear shitty jokes at my table, or constant monty python references.
>>96007174
Nigga, I have no reason to believe you can read at all.

>>96007172
What's the quality product you're missing?

>>96006469
>goblins are evil and if not are barbaric
Wut are u talking about? Everyone knows that goblins are tech savvy alchemists with steam powered giant robots and they are also a local equivalent of jewish bankers.

>>96007205
Good thing all of those have different systems to use that are better to play them than trying to forcefully fit a high fantasy system for everyrhing

>>96007205
>If I play a sci-fi game then I want something like Firefly or Deep Space Nine.
What about Lexx and Babylon 5?

>>96005836 (OP)
Tropes become tropes because they're good and popular, and the only people who reject tropes are cringe faggots with a desperate need to be performatively non-mainstream that everyone laughs at behind their back for being pathetic losers.

the whole POINT of fantasy in TTRPGs is that all players come to the table with common expectations of the setting

that's what makes it work. In scifi, the GM must labor to get all the players on the same page. In fantasy, you can say "I am a rogue" and everyone at the table will nod sagaciously in complete understanding.

>>96007234
>Tropes become tropes because they're good

>>96007234
Or you're fucking bored because you see it repeated everywhere and by less skilled individuals than the originator who did it best.

>>96007206
Of the two gaming stores near me, one has dropped literally every non-D&D product from the RPG shelves. The other has reduced their selection dramatically. I don't even know what I'm missing: it's all choked out.
>>96007229
Definitely. But try getting books or groups for them.
>>96007231
Good shows, I hear. I look forward to watching them at some point. Back in the nineties I was Trek or Die.

>>96007250
the asians who enjoy these tropes have different (worse) cultural values. They still enjoy these cliches however

>>96007242
>In fantasy, you can say "I am a rogue" and everyone at the table will nod sagaciously in complete understanding.
So... they understand that you do it from behind?

>>96007219
Yeah, you sometimes get that one guy who takes a well established thing and subverts it thinking they are smart without knowing historically why the staple in the first place was like that. Like industrial fey or good demons.

>>96007172
You seem to think that world building is the game. It isn't. The game is the game. And, again, it seems like it's just fantasy that you have a problem with. Okay, you don't like fantasy. Don't play fantasy games, then? You're making yourself angry about a thing on purpose, for no reason.

>>96007256
It's too bad there isn't some kind of digital medium that can make every single game, even games long out of print, available to you, usually for free. That'd be pretty useful for you.

>>96007333
>industrial fey or good demons
I see some people do read classics.

>>96005836 (OP)
because i like bland generic fantasy. don't play it if you don't like it and don't try to subvert it like modern fantasy authors who actually hate their source material.

>>96005836 (OP)
>another travelling company of adventurers have to stop the source of all evil, where evil is physically manifested in orcs and goblins?
Or how about a complicated knot of political intrigues? Or a treasure hunt? Or getting lost and facing an ancient abomination in some god forsaken tomb? You know, how fantasy used to be before thinly veiled catholic propaganda took over.

>>96007357
He's butthurt that his friends like D&D, and don't feel like the implicit setting detracts from the game and the session-to-session stories. For a writer, he's certainly not good at pitching his preferred settings and systems.

>>96006058
>A couple of bottles of whisky destroy the whole setting
All you did was insert a new culture into the "fantasy based on real world myth" formula. There is nothing wrong with that, but let's not pretend like it's not just the same cliche with a new coat of paint.

>>96005939
smug CS Lewis.jpg

>>96007171
>various inhabitants of the British Isles
Tolkin ripped of a bunch of things like finngolian epic Kalevala and german Song of Nibelungs.

>>96007493
>You know, how fantasy used to be before thinly veiled catholic propaganda took over.
Common fantasy always had Christian roots. If your goblins were evil you had Christian roots.

>>96007592
30-s fantasy didn't have goblins.

Are there any New Weird writers who aren't complete faggots?

>>96007639
Neil Gaiman is a straight rapist and sex trafficker using the guise of complete woke faggotry as a mask to attract vulnerable fangirls, if that counts.

>>96007592
I said "catholic" though.

>>96007690
Damn, you didn't take my bait.

>>96007649
He what?

>>96007603
I pretty consistently wish that Fadhrd and Grey Mouser was the universal western fantasy touchstone instead of Lord of the Rings.

>>96007799
Why is that?

>>96007815
Because I think Lankhmar is more interesting than middle earth. A Ralph Bakshi adaptation of the Swords and Deviltry stories would have been hype as hell.

>>96007856
>Because I think Lankhmar is more interesting than middle earth.
Well yes I gathered that, but specifically what do you find more interesting about it?

>>96007649
I honestly never really like his writing, which always made me the odd one out in my group of friends who all considered him a genius and even molded some of their ideas of life and morality on stuff he said.

When I read "How to Talk to Girls at Parties", that's when I was basically convinced there was something deeply fucked up with him. It had this strange vibe where it simultaneously put girls on a pedestal while also making them incomprehensible objects, and it felt like he was writing half honestly, and half so that someone could put quotes on Hot-Topic t-shirts to let goth girls tell everyone how powerful and mysterious they were.

Now, it's that weird time where my friends are having a whole crisis of faith because it turns out their hyper-pro-feminist idol was actually a predatory scumbag. It's especially hitting hard for a few who made some of his works a huge part of their personal persona. You know, thousands spent on Sandman merchandise, signed collector's editions, even a couple who named their son Daniel.

It's funny, because I subscribe to Death of the Author and the idea that a work stands on its own, and the qualities and beliefs of the author are irrelevant if they're not present in the work. A writer should be allowed to be as much of a hypocrite as they wish to be, and their work will be judged on its own merits (just like the author will be judged on theirs). So, while I want to comfort my friends, and tell them that they can still enjoy his works without needing to think about how he didn't believe in any of the feminism he was supposed to be a champion of, I also just kind of want them to look at his writing and realize how hollow it's always been.

>>96006047
https://web.archive.org/web/20121119135332/http://www.omnivoracious.com/2009/06/there-and-back-again-five-reasons-tolkien-rocks.html

>>96007592
There was myth and fatastic tales before Jesus, you know. The Argonauts are a very basic adventure story.

>>96007994
No goblins, though.

>>96005836 (OP)
That quote is retarded and based on nothing but autistic spite.

>>96006058
Yeah but was it any good? Was it fun? Did anyone but you like it? Great works of Autistic Complexity are usually dogshit and subsequently ignored.

>>96006077
Nevermind, you're hopelessly retarded.

>>96006121
>Bas-Lag is a world where both magic (referred to as thaumaturgy) and steampunk technology exist
Lol

>>96007799
FatGM is fun, but it's also pretty empty. You can't really hang your hat on it, let alone use it to support Western Fantasy. Even Fritz Leiber wasn't entirely sure what to do with the characters, and they changed in subtle ways between the short stories, with them really just following the tone of each story; sometimes more comedic, sometimes much more dramatic, and altering in personality (and occasionally in ability) to suit the story. I think it largely comes from Leiber not even having been their original creator (with his friend having created them and basing them on Leiber and himself), and having a rough time with their original concept, the real people they were based on, and his own ideas of what the characters should be.

With these flickering characters at its center, Lankmar ends up feeling like a temporary, ephemeral thing. Like a soap bubble.

>>96007994
That's Greek fantasy. I wouldn't call that common fantasy.

>>96007863
Maybe ask that instead of phrasing your question like bumpfag posting.

I like the focus on smaller stories, "we're a plucky group of adventurers saving the entire world," is just uninteresting me. Good vs. Evil is less interesting to me than swashbuckling, flawed characters doing their best. I think the characters feel more lived in and real than Tolkien's characters. I like that it's got more of a foot in weird fiction than tolkien does, with shit like furry artic snakes and ghouls with translucent skin and intelligent, scheming rats. There's also a story/novella where they travel to ancient Greece and have adventures, I like shit like that. I generally prefer that instead of a bunch of different races, there are many different cultures that are explored. Whether or not you think Tolkien's Dwarves, Elves and Hobbits are good, it's hard to ignore that the people ripping him off did an awful job. I like that Lieber can manage to be really funny, really sad, and also really epic. They are just more interesting stories to me overall.

>>96008035
Angry much, lol?

>>96008070
There's not such thing as common fantasy, Is either high fantasy (for the modern mix) or medieval folklore

>>96006058
And what does any of it mean?
People didn't love LoTR just for the aesthetic, but the writing quality and ultimately the moral being told.

If all you can take from that is "Boohoo, dwarves and elves are everywhere" and that your solution is to throw a bunch of shallow ideas at the wall until you get a Madlibs setting, then you have completely missed the point of why Tolkien had the affect that he did

I'll even give another hint: It's not really that different from why C.S Lewis was so popular.

>>96008153
I enjoy Lord of the Rings despite the films, despite the Happy Meal toys and despite Americans

>>96005836 (OP)
Because even when the tropes you play with are the same, the people you play it with can be different. It's the interactions that create a unique experience. A familiar setup merely helps players ease into things quicker. Which might be desirable if you don't want to focus too much on interactions with every unique minutiae of your setting.

>>96008074
>Good vs. Evil is less interesting to me than swashbuckling, flawed characters doing their best.
My brother in Christ, what do you think Boromir and the entire nation-state of Gondor were
Men are *extremely* flawed in Middle Earth, and it's only with exceptional effort that they rise above their fear and weakness to be more than they are.

>>96008168
I think you try to give value to yourself by emphasizing how what you like is different from others you disapprove of, without considering any of the actual merits being said in the original work.
If you're a teenager then I understand, that's pretty normal for that time in someone's life. If you're in your 20s or even 30s, then I hope you reconsider some things.

>>96008172
You're ignoring the greater point to make a nitpick. I'm not interested in grand, sweeping good vs evil narratives where the dark Lord has to be defeated so the rightful order can be restored. That isn't interesting to me. I don't care that there exist characters with flaws in LotR, that's obviously not what I was talking about.

>>96007947
I always enjoyed the works he co-authored with Pratchett but I think that has to do more with Pratchett, God rest his soul. Sandman had its moments but frankly I think it's more fun as a distant element of capeshit cosmology than as its own stand alone work, which would probably cause Gaiman untold psychic agony if he knew (good).

>>96008074
>Maybe ask that instead of phrasing your question like bumpfag posting.
Fair. If you thought it was bumpfagging I'm surprised you responded at all. Thank you for providing additional details when requested clearly, though.

I think I get what you're saying though. LotR is deliberately mythic fantasy, which is somewhat impersonal, having the feel of a long-worn fable. This lends it a magical, whimsical air but makes it less gritty and relatable. And, of course, if you're a HFY/humans only type you are going to hate Tolkein's elves like little else in fiction.

I do agree a Bakshi film would fit those stories much better than they did LotR, as well.

>>96007342
The game is the game, but if the game is just fucking around in a meaningless stew of clichés are you actually DOING any gaming?
I'm not a railroader, nor an obsessive world builder. But I do expect that when I play in or run a game it will be filled with a certain richness. That minutiae matter. That detail is applauded and that everyone else at the table wants to sign into stuff. Just cruising by on easy mode doesn't satisfy.

>>96008216
You do not play games.

>>96008193
You're using big, sweeping criticisms of a whole world to justify your reasoning, so if you don't like that line of thought then you shouldn't have started it.

The other part is that almost every fantasy series written since the 90s has been "Dark and realistic with fucked up characters doing shitty things and it's so cool yeah" to the point where it's tired and cliched.

If you want to simply focus on the characters, then just do that. You don't need much of a setting at all to accomplish a strong, character driven story. But when someone's worldbuilding premise starts with trying to tear down the major inspiration from nearly a century ago, you're not doing that at all, especially when your Inuit story pitch has mentioned nothing at all about characters and everything about meaningless worldbuilding trivia.

>>96008180
No, I'm very specifically giving Lord of the Rings value despite other's attempts to devalue it

>>96008193
That's kind of why the books don't end with Sauron being defeated. The Scouring of the Shire is these heroic figures returning home where they're not even recognized as being heroic, and have to deal with various shades of gray while ultimately fighting not against a dark lord, but just human greed, hobbit cowardice, and Saruman's spite. Frodo isn't fighting for justice or some sort of cosmic good, he just wants some peace and quiet in the Shire. I don't even think Frodo actually fights; he's just so fucking tired of it all, but simply refuses to be intimidated or broken.

>>96008195
>And, of course, if you're a HFY/humans only type you are going to hate Tolkein's elves like little else in fiction.
So if they're actual children? Tolkien elves are pretty clearly idealized versions of what man himself could one day be, rather than something alien that humans will forever have to live in the shadow of or overcome.

>>96008253
I genuinely hate the LOTR films. I hate the soft focus, the weird mix of Victorian and dark ages garb, the uniformity, the bombastic soundtrack, the inserted girlbosses, McKellan, Serkis, Orlando "wooden elf" Bloom.

>>96008195
It isn't even being HFY necessarily. I honestly don't think Tolkien's handling of the demihumans is bad, I think the fact that it's so completely welded elves, dwarves and Hobbits to fantasy at large that's a negative. I think a Leiber- or Howardesque, or even Vancian world with off kilter, strange a numerous human cultures is a lot more interesting than "there are the elves, they are all exactly the same with the same culture, these are the dwarves, they are all exactly the same, with the same culture, these are the humans, they are all exactly the same, except there are hill people and river people maybe."

I agree that Mythic is the world, though. I get why people dig LotR (and I fuckin' love the Hobbit) but the people in those books feel as though they are supposed to representations of greater concepts rather than actual people, and it just doesn't really grab me the same way Conan, or Fafhrd and GM, or even The Three Musketeers do.

>>96008242
You seem to think you're arguing with someone else, and you're making points orthogonal to the one point I made.

>>96008266
The first movie is great.

>>96008253
Holy fucking shit, this is another reason I dislike the ubiquity of Tolkien in the space. If someone says they don't like Conan, maybe my only question would be if they've read Howards stories, because there are a lot of chaff out there. If I say I dislike LotR, people come out of the fucking woodwork to tell me my opinion is wrong.

>>96008292
I didn't say your opinion is wrong.
I'm happy that you realized it is on your own though.

>>96008281
It gets rough fast

>>96008315
It still hits a lot of high notes. The Balrog, Boromir's death... uh...

>>96008266
Sorry to hear about you having brain damage

>>96005836 (OP)
>Let me guess, another travelling company of adventurers have to stop the source of all evil, where evil is physically manifested in orcs and goblins?
Yeah man, sounds too white for me, ya know?
Gotta get some women and minority voices in there, amirite? Maybe a few trannies, NOW we'll have a party

>>96008254
Well, we were all children once. I do think there is a general theme in Tolkein's works of the retreat of grace from a sin-cursed world, and that while the traits of his elves are aspirational I don't know that it's ever suggested that men of a latter age are headed for anything but further decay.

>>96008274
Well, we only really see two elven enclaves in LotR, and they certainly have some differences of opinion. It's not quite Elder Scrolls with its thousand and one flavors of mer, but considering these are the two we meet, it's not quite a "planet of hats" scenario.

>>96008216
>minutiae is *actually DOING gaming*
Hahahahaha nogamez

>>96005836 (OP)
I like how the greatest counter argument to anything like this is to just read what the OP actually made, and see how God awful it almost always is

>>96007171
>So you literally just ripped off Tolkien by using a completely different cultural aesthetic from that which defines Tolkien rip-offs
Sure buddy

>>96007947
Okay, but come on? What did you expect?

Smashing stank alt girl pussy is basically the most realistic perk to being a fantasy author. Nobody is getting rich from writing novels anymore. That's why nerdy moids get into shit like writing smutty fiction and cosplay photography: the off chance of getting laid.

>>96006922
>"It's easy" is not a selling point.
Neither is "it's original". Avoiding things people like just because they've been done before marks you as a contrarian wanker and nobody wants to play with that guy.

>>96007252
Doesn't actually happen to mentally well-adjusted people, they just ignore the executions that fail to live up to the trope's potential. What you have is Novelty Poisoning, sadly by all evidence an incurable condition that will eventually leave you bored of *everything* except sucking cocks.

>>96005836 (OP)
>ah go on up you baldhead
How do you (a logorrheic baldhead with a corpus of cack and delusions of grandeur) respond without sounding mad?

>>96005836 (OP)
forgot to explain why any of those things are bad. mieville's kind of a retard huh?

>>96006099
What's the difference?

>>96009353
Stop being a slop guzzling apologist.

>>96006371
Published and awful.

>>96006922
Yes it is.

>>96007143
As does everything that you like.

>>96007172
Yes, it really is a game, and storyshitting isn't.

>>96007252
Sorry you have bad taste and inferior preferences.

>>96007250
Yes.

>>96005836 (OP)
Wow he really socked it to that dead author whose success he will never attain or even get anywhere near

>>96008315
nah

>>96007947
Women should be put on pedestals. They're intrinsically valuable, men aren't.

>>96009651
lol mad

>>96009803
>They're intrinsically valuable
To whom?

Not, "to whom". They simply are valuable, objectively and a priori, without regard or respect to any particular opinion, viewpoint, or set of perspectives.

>>96009820
Nothing is valuable a priori, because value is subjective.

Incorrect.

>>96009866
My dictionary begs to differ, I'm afraid.

Yes, your dictionary is wrong, I know.

>>96009879
The time of departure has arrived, and now we go our separate ways.

Yep, you lose.

>>96009693
>>96009812
>ad populum
>on fucking 4chan

Not ad populum. You, specifically, have bad taste.

nah.

yeah.

>>96007523
He was smug because he was right.

Obviously wrong, you mean.

>>96007283
Jesus anon, I haven't heard ETC since right after StarCraft 2 came out.
Now I remember that my hair is more gray than it once was and I have a mortgage.

>>96005836 (OP)
>tolkien was bad
>look inside
>socialist
lmao
anyway, classic fantasy is based and OP has no friends.

>>96011923
Big fat fantasy is slop

>>96011938
you spelled based wrong

>>96009721
>Success
It’s only successful in making drones who parrot this and that about fantasy tropes.

>>96009633
Of course I'm not saying that any fan of Tolkien is no friend of mine—that would cut my social circle considerably. Nor would I claim that it's impossible to write a good fantasy book with elves and dwarfs in it—Michael Swanwick's superb Iron Dragon's Daughter gives the lie to that. But given that the pleasure of fantasy is supposed to be in its limitless creativity, why not try to come up with some different themes, as well as unconventional monsters? Why not use fantasy to challenge social and aesthetic lies?

Thankfully, the alternative tradition of fantasy has never died. And it's getting stronger. Chris Wooding, Michael Swanwick, Mary Gentle, Paul di Filippo, Jeff VanderMeer, and many others, are all producing works based on fantasy's radicalism. Where traditional fantasy has been rural and bucolic, this is often urban, and frequently brutal. Characters are more than cardboard cutouts, and they're not defined by race or sex. Things are gritty and tricky, just as in real life. This is fantasy not as comfort-food, but as challenge.

The critic Gabe Chouinard has said that we're entering a new period, a renaissance in the creative radicalism of fantasy that hasn't been seen since the New Wave of the sixties and seventies, and in echo of which he has christened the Next Wave. I don't know if he's right, but I'm excited. This is a radical literature. It's the literature we most deserve.

>>96011940

>>96011955
>uses AI to write a response

>>96011965
This is the original Mieville quote, given before AI existed.
>When people dis fantasy—mainstream readers and SF readers alike—they are almost always talking about one sub-genre of fantastic literature. They are talking about Tolkien, and Tolkien's innumerable heirs. Call it 'epic', or 'high', or 'genre' fantasy, this is what fantasy has come to mean. Which is misleading as well as unfortunate.
https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/279616-when-people-dis-fantasy-mainstream-readers-and-sf-readers-alike-they-are

>>96005836 (OP)
>reactionary
This post deserves a helicopter ride.

>>96007799
Why not Thieves World?

>>96011795
>I have a mortgage
Sucker.

>>96012561
I'd be fine with that, because Thieves'world was directly inspired by Lieber and Howard. I'm not sure how'd you do a good Thieves' World movie, though, in this alternate cool timeline.

>>96011955
Commie gobbledegook.

>>96011965
>muh em dashes

>>96011955
LITERALLY WHO

>>96005836 (OP)
I got a white homie called Chinese Melvin.

>>96014176
I mean like him or not but jesus christ, anon. Don't be so flagrantly proud of your ignorance. You'd know him, whatever you think of his novels, if you were someone who reads.

>>96011955
Kill every socialist

>>96014606
I know Chinese Melvin, I'm talking about the who's who of nobodies I was replying to.

>>96011955
>Jeff VanderMeer
Since when does VaderMeer write fantasy? I only see modern scifi in his repertoire.

>>96011955
So no arguments, reasoning, or justification for your position of any kind? You're not very good at persuasion, huh?

>>96014666
Oh. It's a famous quote from Mieville. Famous for being exactly the level of douchey obnoxious self-serving blah-blah that it sounds like. I like his books and even I think dude is a self-absorbed little bitch-boy.

>>96014799
Anon it's a quote used to demonstrate what a douche Mieville is. You're not talking to someone asserting something.

>>96007250
I love a good power ranking system, but adventure guild tiers irk me for some reason. Maybe it's because we know the MC isn't bronze or C rank or whatever, it's just whatever he's recognised as.

The dog tags from Gangsta. ? Now there's a ranking system I can get behind.

>>96014916
Sure.

>>96014672
Most of his stuff is actually weird fantasy shit, the southern reach books are just his most well known.

>>96007947
I really like Neil Gaiman as a writer and there was always this alternating honesty and dishonesty in his work. When he just lets himself be a little dark without trying to pull away from it that's great, he's also very good at doing a sort of bittersweet sadness that feels authentic and meaningful. Some straightforwardly optimistic stuff that works and is affecting, but other times its like...you do not remotely believe what you're saying Neil. This is absurd and manipulative.

Dark and not pulling away: In Sandman where he writes about William Shakespeare taking some level of satisfaction or compensation from his child's death, because now he'll be able to write about things like that better. Very ugly feeling, portrayed without any pulling of the punch, very cynical. Alternatively a famous writer gaining his talent from holding captive and raping a literal mythological greek muse-very ugly, very honest about what a nothing vain scumbag a writer, very interesting to read in retrospect.

Bittersweet: A lot of the interactions death has with people who have died in Sandman. It doesn't really sugercoat death and how horrible it is but the hope of something being kind of "okay" or there being some kind of vague nice surprise afterwards is a near universal, very emotionally honest and touching idea. Not dishonest, just hopeful.

Red Flags: All the tumblrbait. Uwu I'm just a perfectly non threathening, whimsical, soft and ever so sensitive 55 year old man here to show you how wonderful life is, especially if you're a girl many decades younger than me.

>>96016192
Yeah I was pissed to find out how full of horseshit he is. That all his moralizing was just covering for the fact that he's actually a worthless fucking asshole.

>>96008543
Gayman is worth millions

>>96009794
I really enjoy the Hobbit and I like LOTR, my experience of both predates the films. The films felt like a compromise the whole way through

>>96012001
Mieville also wrote why Tolkien was great which was posted then duly ignored here lol

>>96016192
Generally speaking those pseudo bdsm open relationships are a red flah. Of course outliers can sometimes navigate different modes of being without too much upset but it's very rare. For better or worse some exclusive arrangement where you met on roughly equal terms to not belt them black and blue seems less complicated.

>>96016211
A lot of people see rough sex with dubious consent and the instrumentalisation of people as wank socks as their artistic privelege. Ultimately their emotions are fairly limited and their exchanges are reduced to "scenes" nd contrivances. Kind of glad to be away from a lot of the women I knew who were really into the fetish thing. It's a lot of people not communicating very well hurting one another in unintended less obvious ways.

>>96007493
>?
>Or how about a complicated knot of political intrigues? Or a treasure hunt? Or getting lost and facing an ancient abomination in some god forsaken tomb?
Dungeons and Dragons?

>>96007799
It is, Dungeon and Dragons took from it, and Japanese fantasy took from D&D

>>96016609
I mean, no? Regardless of what Gary or Appendix N would have you believe, D&D has been !LotR since at least Dragonlance came out. Sword and Sorcery fiction might be in its DNA, but the Lord of the Rings is still far and away the main fantasy touchstone in the western world.

>>96017298
I mean if you completely ignore tone, setting, and themes yeah D&D is aesthetically more similar to Lord of the Rings than most pulp.
But that's pretty much where the similarities end.

Now whether that influence has lasted up till now is a bit of a different argument.
But even now I'd still have a hard time calling D&D aesthetically similar to Lord of the Rings.

>>96017354
D&D has no tone, setting, aesthetics, or themes. It's a wargame.

>>96017369
D&D was originally a supplement for the Chainmail wargame released in 1974 that focused on character development and individual combat.
It helped define what an RPG is and despite its roots in wargaming has become its own fully fledged genre.

The first two settings designed for use with D&D were Greyhawk and Blackmoor. With Greyhawk in particular defining the expectations laid out in the later books in the AD&D line. Over time many more would be created or adapted for use using those two as the blueprint. So D&D doesn't have A setting it has many.

D&D's primary milieu is exploration, treasure hunting, combat, and usually general do-gooding. Whilst these aren't true themes they do heavily influence the themes that are produced through the storytelling of games or the stories set in the worlds.

And of course D&D has aesthetics. Does all the art and descriptions just retroactively not exist to you or something?

You shouldn't want to be a reductive philistine, but if you're going to be one you should at least try to aim for more correct than not.

>>96005836 (OP)
Hey, some people have fun with cliché stuff. Games are for entertainment, not for pseud masturbation.
Anyway I do fucking hate most if the bootleg Tolkien settings and races, which means I won't play in those, but if other people want to play with that it's up to them.

>>96017354
You speaking sideways to the point. I didn't say "I wish the touchstone for d&d was lord of the rings." I said, "I wish the touchstone for western fantasy was Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser. Nevermind the fact that I guarantee there is more LotR in modern d&d than Sword and Sorcery, between the books and the movies Lord of the Rings is far and away the lingua franca of western fantasy. Everyone knows what LotR is. If you asked 100 random people on the street to name a fantasy book, I bet a large majority would name Lord of the Rings, and the next up would be GoT, which has waaaaaaay more in common with, and I'd argue is in direct conversation with, LotR

>>96005836 (OP)
It's like asking what's the point of a cheeseburger. You can have a bad one and it sucks, but then you can have a good one and it's so good and satisfying.

>>96008543
>Smashing stank alt girl pussy is basically the most realistic perk to being a fantasy author
God. I wish that was all it was.

>>96017498
I didn't present any sort of argument towards your wish that FatGM was more influential. I wish it was too, not because I've read it, I haven't yet, but because fantasy on the whole tends to be a bit incestuous.
Part of that is due to the influence of Tolkien, to be sure, but that's just it. It's Tolkien's influence and not his actual work itself.
There's actually not a lot of Tolkien-isms in D&D sincerely. There are Elves, Dwarves, and Hobbits and their associated tropes which D&D cribbed and helped codify obviously. But other than that what else is there?

Sincerely, because I don't see it.
Classes are either so generic that it's beyond stupid to say they originated from Tolkien or specifically ripped off from elsewhere. With the exception of the ranger I suppose. (Wizards - Vance, Sorcerers - Merlin/Demigods, Warlocks - Faustus, Monks - Wuxia/Xianxia, Barbarians - Conan, Paladins - Matter of France/Britain etc.)

The setting is rooted in vague notions of Polytheism, taking a bit from both Greek and Norse mythologies, with a few nods and winks to various Christian figures (Various demons and prophets mostly). Drastically unlike Tolkien's setting with obvious overarching Christian themes with Eru Ilu'vatar and Morgoth.

LotR and The Hobbit are also both about the common man, the horrors of war, and the importance of goodness triumphing over evil. D&D is about heroes of the mythic variety with elements of American self-made man mentality. (hence why the heroes are not explicitly demigods). Heroes tend to good out of circumstance or for personal gain. Hell D&D is rooted in wargaming which is explicitly about idolizing how cool war and combat can be.

I could go on but I'm out of characters.

I hear this whole "D&D is just Tolkien" take all the time and it's frustrating because D&D is absolutely not just Tolkien with the serial numbers filed off. It took a few things from him and ran with them in a completely different direction.

>>96005836 (OP)
This hasn't been the default since forever.

Why do tolkiendrones get so defensive over criticism of tolkien?

>>96007250
Good tropes can be done poorly, in a vacuum those can all be good.

>>96017853
>text text text text text
The left can't meme.

>>96017767
>I did not actually read the thread, I replied to your post with some nonsense, and I am continuing to post a bunch of a nonsense, seemingly for no reason.

K

Just a reminder to everyone that currently we have a /LoTR/ thread on the catalog >>95988052. You don't need to engage with the usual suspects to talk about Tolkien. They're seething retards forever crying they live in his shadow, resentful creatures that make Golum look like a noble and beautiful individual.

>>96005836 (OP)
>retarded thread
>China image
It's like pottery, it rhymes

I dont know who this chinaman is, but he talks like a fucking nutter more upset tolkein didnt follow his personal politics.

>>96006819
>China
>Mediocre
He wishes to be that good

>>96019084
>salty nutter
That's literally China. Guy so salty, it's a wonder he didn't have sodium-induced heart attack

>>96019021
>The left can't meme.
Tolkien hated fascism and nazism
His grandson is a literal left wing pro refugee jew
Stop pretending he was some BAYSED uber nazi

>>96019084
>I don't read
Opinion discarded.

>>96019184
Good. Nazism and fascism were revolutionary ideologies, and Tolkien was a traditional Catholic man. Catholics in Germany didn't vote the nazi party for the exact same reason. Now: keep seething.

>>96005836 (OP)
Because while those tropes may have been "Done to death" YOU have not necessarily experienced them to their fullest or done everything that's worth doing with them.
Oh, you watched lord of the rings a couple times and played in a D&D campaign that fizzled out after 4 sessions and now you've seen and experienced everything there is to offer in medieval fantasy? No. You haven't...
You're bored because you're boring.

>>96019253
dont engage with the cunt, just alter the jannies and hope they do their job.

>>96019184
Tolkien also strongly disliked Dune because of its open depiction of religion as a tool of social engineering.

But he was picky even with explicitly Christian-themed works.

>It is sad that 'Narnia' and all that part of C.S.L.'s work should remain outside the range of my sympathy, as much of my work was outside his. Also, I personally found Letters to Malcolm a distressing and in parts horrifying work. I began a commentary on it, but if finished it would not be publishable.

>>96017298
>D&D has been !LotR since at least Dragonlance came out.
You can count in your fingers the number of things D&D took from Tolkien, and half of the examples or act completely different or existed before Tolkien.

>>96017498
>Everyone knows what LotR is. If you asked 100 random people on the street to name a fantasy book, I bet a large majority would name Lord of the Rings, and the next up would be GoT
This isn't Tolkien being the touchstone of fantasy, this is the common man calling a "penguin" a penguin.

>>96019253
Tolkien was a tradcuck
The epitome of his tradcuck papist ideology is his grandson being a jewish open borders atheist
>>96019256
Read some actual literature
The actual epics tolkien ripped from are tens times better than the lord of the rings
But you don't like reading them because they filter your peanut brain

>>96005836 (OP)
I come back from a 3 day ban for telling someone Mudcore is shit (it is) to find this thread. Raped. This board is full of fucking shit.
>oh moi soience is that tolkein in a ttrpg discussion
>but muh morals are absolute
>but muh God isn't real
>but muh dick up my ass
Ban me again you useless faggots. None of you care about storytelling, you can't even get past the bare basics.

>>96016522
>Gayman is worth millions
He was basically on the last chopper out of Nam in terms of writers making money. And he was probably doing it for the clout to smash stank art hoe pussy when he was broke.

>>96019754
*morals aren't

>>96007172
>ttrpgs could exist without fantasy also I suck dick for a living

>>96006922
You get the effort you deserve. If you want to come into a subculture built around the history of modern fantasy storytelling and "erm akshually" your way out of Tolkein being a huge and largely positive influence on it you have to have an actual argument. You people are not worth the effort so why would you see effort in the replies? Calling it "bland" already makes a concession to OP's argument that has no foundation because OP is wrong and you're both faggots. If you cannot grapple with ideas that have been done before your attempts at originality do not matter, they are a performance for people who are scared of having fun playing a game because someone on the internet groomed them into thinking that happiness and creativity are worse than being a boring psuedointellectual wigger with no friends. Ban me again and prove me right, you have nothing.

>>96005836 (OP)
China meville is a communist little shit that accidentally wrote ONE decent book and all the other ones were shite

Eveeyone who has ever tried to make a """unique""" fantasy has only ever created trite dogshit. This is an indisputable fact. Tolkien perfected it. Orcs are evil, elves are good, following a group of heroes as they adventure in the wilderness is based and kino. Deal with it

>>96005836 (OP)
>China Mieville
Who the fuck names their kid "China" lmao
Didn't read the rest of your post sorry

>>96019601
>Erhm, actually
You're a contrarian retard.
>>96019669
How does this disprove the point?

>>96017298
>>96019045
>Regardless of what Gary or Appendix N would have you believe, D&D has been !LotR since at least Dragonlance came out.

This is the claim I had a problem with.
This is the claim I said I had a problem with.

I didn't have a problem with anything else you said. You don't have to argue with me if you're not interested.
But don't frame me as an idiot just because you're unwilling to engage with my points.

>>96019754
cry more

>>96019904
What, exactly, are your fucking points, then? You seem to be very bad at conveying them.

>>96019926

D&D is not just LotR with the serial numbers filed off. It took a few mostly surface level things from LotR and borrowed them.

Read this post for a more detailed breakdown of just a handful of things that make D&D not just LotR.

>>96017767

>>96019904
Original statement:
>I wish we lived in a world where something other than LotR was the touchstone for western fantasy
Your reply:
>But actually, other thing *is* that, because d&d

This original statement is wrong, regardless of how you feel about d&d. Everything else you've posted is incomprehensible nonsense.

>>96019952
I'm not saying that d&d is just "Tolkien with the serial numbers filed off," you fucking moron. You're having a conversation in your head with an imaginary opponent. I'm saying that Lord of the rings is what most people assume is the baseline of fantasy, and that modern d&d is more about going on big quests to save the land than it is about plucky rogues doing odd jobs to get wine and bitches. I'm not talking about themes, I'm talking about scope. There is inherently more LotR in everything past early 1st edition d&d's DNA than sword and Sorcery.

>>96019981
To add on to this, regardless of the intent of the ganes creators, most D&D campaigns from the beginning to the present have more inspiration from Tolkien than anything else. The game designers intention matters little to the application, that has always been true.

>>96019893
>You're a contrarian retard.
Not an argument.

>How does this disprove the point?
Actual penguins are extinct, the birds current called penguins aren't related to them.
It is similar to Tolkien and fantasy; they saw fantasy and called it Tolkien, even when it isn't related.

>>96020010
They aren't, they don't focus more in non-combat than combat.

>>96019965

None of what I've written is particularly incomprehensible.

Furthermore LotR arguably isn't THE touchstone for western fantasy anyway. Because that downplays the influence of like Greek Mythology, Norse Mythology, Faustus, Divine Comedy, Abrahamic Mythology, Gothic Horror, etc.

>>96019981
>Regardless of what Gary or Appendix N would have you believe, D&D has been !LotR since at least Dragonlance came out.

Someone posted this, I don't know who it was specifically.

>There is inherently more LotR in everything past early 1st edition d&d's DNA than sword and Sorcery.

Honestly I wish literally anyone would validate this statement.

>I'm not talking about themes, I'm talking about scope

OK this is at least something.

>modern d&d is more about going on big quests to save the land than it is about plucky rogues doing odd jobs to get wine and bitches.

Maybe this is true, I don't think so it's a bit setting dependent. Scope is a bad thing to rest your laurels on though because Sword and Sorcery scope is all over the place, not all of it is dude mcguy does a quest.

>>96020010

This is completely fair, but I'm focused more on published material because it's the only common point of reference.

>>96020012
>It is similar to Tolkien and fantasy; they saw fantasy and called it Tolkien, even when it isn't related.
That's because Tolkien is the common touchstone for western fantasy! You're literally proving my point.

>>96020051
>That's because Tolkien is the common touchstone for western fantasy! You're literally proving my point
What does touchstone mean?

>>96019915
He'll grow up and become an orthobro one day.

>>96020027
>they don't focus on this one specific aso
aspect, that means they have taken no influence whatsoever
Your brain is tiny and smooth, like a pea.

>>96005836 (OP)
Once you realize that this guy's definition of "bad" is Doesn't Subvert and Undermine the Heteronormative Patriarchal Capitalist Status Quo And Therefore Delays The Worker's Revolution, you can kinda ignore everything he says.

I like Perdido Street Station, but he himself is an ass who missed the cultural boat on being a popular commie.

>>96005836 (OP)
This fag sounds upset.

>>96020054
>a standard or criterion by which something is judged or recognized

>>96020037
>Greek Mythology, Norse Mythology, Faustus, Divine Comedy, Abrahamic Mythology, Gothic Horror, etc.
I guarantee than more people who read fantasy are familiar with Tolkien than any of this.

>>96020051
This kind of reads like recursive logic though.
If someone calls something that isn't a Tolkien-ism, Tolkien; That's just being wrong.
I'm not saying Tolkien isn't influential either obviously, but saying he's the only or even the main touchstone of modern fantasy is reductive to the point of absurdity.

>>96020131
Okay, then what is your alternative?

>>96007250
Classic fantasy is just better than anime. It has better tropes

>>96019021
it's a rightoid meme, complaining that Tolkien 'isn't Catholic enough'.

>>96020120
The problem is that it is the opposite, they don't judge based on Tolkien, they only know his name.
It is similar to the penguins, or the seeker film being a vaguely adaptation of "the dark is rising" books.

>>96020128
Really you think more people are familiar with Tolkien than:

>Greek Myth
Satyrs, Centaurs, Harpies, Minotaur, Medusa, Demigods, (not the inventor but certainly the popularizer) Sirens, Nymphs (Dryads), Gigantes (Giants) etc.

>Norse Myth
Valkyries, Jottun (Giants again), (Admittedly Elf and Dwarf would be here but they're obviously Tolkien), Dragons (Beowulf killed one and Fafnir is the archetypal dragon guarding a horde/Tolkien used this but certainly didn't invent it.) etc.

>Divine Comedy
Purgatory, Circles of Hell, a handful of other things I'm sure

>Abrahamic Mythology
Literally heaven and hell, Angels, Demons, Golems, Nephilim, If you throw in Arabic stuff referenced in the Quran although not originated from it you can add in things like Jinn (Genies) and Ghouls

>Gothic Horror/Monster Movie Renaissance (They overlap quite a bit honestly)
Really vampires, werewolves, zombies, mummies, flesh golems (Frankenstein), a handful of others probably.

>>96020168
Modern fantasy is eclectic as shit and has influences from all fucking over the place. Dismissing it as all Tolkien is wild.

I legitimately challenge you to find a work that's got that alleged Tolkien sauce on it that doesn't include at least some of these.

>>96007250
>filename
come on
>generic lookng MC with OP abilities
for a ttrpg it doesn't matter what your fag looks like and they're the game's protagonists so pretty much will end up OP, even if not to the level of anime trash
>demi-human slave and AG receptionist
cringe magical realm
>AG and ranking system
utter shit
>herb gathering
eh decent enough alternative to "kill goblins" or "go to creepy place and fight skeletons or cultists".
>pedophilia
stop being japanese
>generic wild monster
boring but works
>douchebag who picks fight with
douchebag npcs are fun

>>96020244
>Admittedly Elf and Dwarf would be here but they're obviously Tolkien),
The only the dwarves should be, the modern elves have a lot of elements from Moorcock.

>>96020244
I am pretty sure Smaugh and the Dwarves from Tolkien are directly based on the legend of Fafnir and Sigfreid.

>>96020274
Yeah that's my understanding of it.

Tolkien borrowed a lot obviously, but most of the stuff he borrowed has been buried into the popular consciousness by other stuff either before or since. I mean shit Beowulf is taught in schools and probably has been for as long as we've had it translated.

>>96005836 (OP)
Tropes become tropes for good reason. They are usually the narrative devices that most people either relate to or find the most interesting.

>>96019695
Tolkien is probably closer to the hippies right wingers whined about than most trad tard who are shitting up the internet.
>The actual epics tolkien ripped from are tens times better than the lord of the rings
Like what? Can you name any of these stories you probably never read yourself?

>>96020244
You. Are. Completely. Missing. The. Point. You're being a pedant and thinking that makes you smart. Again, if you asked 100, fuck, a thousand people on the street "name a work of fantasy" a greater majority would name LotR. It is one of the most read book series on the planet, and the biggest fantasy film franchise on the planet. I'm not saying "everything is just lord of the rings." I'm saying that Lord of the Rings has massive influence compared to anything else. It's like comparing D&d to other ttrpgs. Its usually the patient zero, even if at a remove. I know people who haven't read other books, not just fantasy but BOOKS, but have read LotR.

>>96020387
Tolkien was just the boomer's boomer. Even in his lifetime his fans were generations apart and thus he was baffled about stuff like a fan sending him goblet with the One Ring's black speech inscription since he had made the language genuinely horrible in his own esteem.

>>96006121
Who and what?

>>96020404
Being known isn't the same as being influential.
See Wonder Woman for example

>>96020387
>Like what? Can you name any of these stories you probably never read yourself?
The Song of Roland, the Nibelungenlied, Beowulf, the Kalevala
It's really not that difficult

>>96020425
So now you're going to argue that Lord of the Rings hasn't been influential on western fantasy? You're a fucking moron.

>>96020404
How old are you? Sincere question because I feel like there's a generational gap here perhaps.

Tolkien is influential and the Peter Jackson films are hugely famous, but like really 1000 people nowadays are going to say LotR and not Harry Potter, Game of Thrones, Thor (The entire MCU arguably but definitely the Thor films), etc.

I'll agree that to a degree Tolkien is synonymous with the word fantasy, but there's an absolute laundry list of things that are just as influential as he is to the genre itself.

That's my point.

Tolkien may be Fantasy the word, but Tolkien is not Fantasy the genre.

>>96020497
>I am very pedantic, therefore I am very smart. I am a very smart boy, please give me updoots!

Just fuck off, dude. Holy shit.

>>96020497
>>96020497
>Harry Potter
Not as influential in the world of fantasy as LotR, and I'd argue a different kind of fantasy than we're talking about
>Thor
Fuckin' scifi, also no way is Thor more influential in fantasy than LotR
>GoT
You mean the book series that was directly inspired by LotR?

Again, I am not saying that everything is a 1 for 1 copy of Lord of the Rings. You're arguing past the point, over and over again.

>>96020094
>he himself is an ass who missed the cultural boat on being a popular commie.
It's worse. He is missing being on that boat, and that was almost 25 fucking years ago, so the more time have passed, the more bitter he is about it
Not even old man Moorcock is this salty over past fame and popularity. And at least Moorcock can sincerely claim he had an impact on the genre and the hobby.

>>96020100
You would be upset yourself if you self-created a bogus literary movement solely for the sake of marketing, the gig works out for like 3-4 years, you become kinda-famous and almost-noteworthy, and then people figure out you are an absolute ass and double-salty nigger, while your literary output can be summed up with "Dunno, subvert the expectation", so your almost-fame goes down the drain before people properly learn to spell your surname.
And because this particular specimen is incredibly vain, all he's been doing for the past two fucking decades is seething. It would be almost pitiable if he wasn't a tankie hardliner, too.

>>96020532
>Fuckin' scifi, also no way is Thor more influential in fantasy than LotR
It is surprising how much Warhammer took from marvel comics.

>>96020513
It's not pedantic or controversial to say that fantasy is more than just Tolkien. Yes he's famous, yes he's influential.

But unless vampire fiction, mythic heroes and their superheroic counterparts, and the entirety of Christianity, Judaism, and Islam disappeared since I last checked; Saying Tolkien is the only Fantasy anyone knows is ridiculous.

And no I don't think that makes me smart at all to point this out. I think it's quite obvious.
If anything, I think it makes me not a complete idiot inventing my own boogieman to get mad at.

>>96020532
>Again, I am not saying that everything is a 1 for 1 copy of Lord of the Rings. You're arguing past the point, over and over again.

I never said this nor put those words in your mouth.

Your point is that Tolkien is the blueprint of modern fantasy correct?

I'm saying that's simply not true there's way too much other shit that's virtually omnipresent in fantasy to simply say that Tolkien ALONE is the blueprint.
Tolkien's largest donation is the standard race lineup, Humans, Dwarves, Elves, Hobbits, Orcs (Goblins). Outside of that Tolkien is virtually irrelevant, unless you attribute things that he used, but didn't even popularize in the first place like vaguely medieval setting or broad notions of good rising up to fight evil.

Also brief aside Thor is absolutely Science Fantasy. Sure he's an alien with future tech, but he's also a warrior that fights with a magical hammer and can summon lightning.

>>96020448
>song of roland
>Superior to Lord of the Rings
lol. Song of Roland us pure slop. It's basically proto shonenshit
>Roland and the Z Fighters are so epic, they totally cut 10,000 guys in half before anyone fell
>Spends 2 pages hyping up some mudslime badass who gets instantly gibbed by the Krillin of Roland's crew
It's historically important, but it's pure slop. You're retarded, dumb fuck.

Every time you mention Tolkien, the cuck patrol from discord has a massive meltdown. Is just delicious.

>>96020609
So Stephen King stayed true to the source with how easily Walter and the Crimson King were dispatched.

>>96020626
Are the discord boogeymen in this context supposed to be pro or anti tolkien?

>>96020626
It is weird.

>Tolkien invented cliched wizards and magic!!!
>Actually wizardry is older, and magic is from Dying Earth.
>Shut up retarded.

>>96020628
I've never read much King, I find other horror authors to be better. But I'm actually under-exaggerating that part. There's like 10 pages dedicated to describing one of these badass guys who all get one shotted immediately after their backstory by one of Roland's sidekicks. And all of this is happening because Roland is too proud/retarded to blow his horn like the Z Fighters ask him to until everyone of his friends dies. It's honestly hilarious, but I wouldn't call it good fantasy. Certainly not as good as The Lord of the Rings. Its more in the "enjoyable like Eragon" camp.

>>96020630
They are the antis, China and friends are big over Discord and Tumblr.

wait what books should I be reading?

>>96020655
It is like Beowulf, people are incapable of reading a straight forward epic.

>>96020675
Gods of Pegāna and the Worm Ouroboros.

>>96020679
It's perfectly readable- it's just not that good.

>>96020691
It is more "how dare those ancient tales be about larger than life bros?

1) Nobody will ever remember a bitter miserable cretin like this.
2) Tolkien has brought more happiness, excitement, enjoyment and benefits to the world than this literally who, same as the others who try and tear him down
3) It is the behavior of small and petty faggots to try and tear down the giants they stand in the shadows of instead of show respect and appreciation.
4) Fantasy as 'consolation' has done far more good in the world than every hack who thinks their wit will somehow change the world for the better. Life is suffering, and ameliorating that suffering does come about from actionable change in real life but also escapism is necessary for the human condition
5) Behead those who insult Tolkien, I'd translate saweel al Sawarim into Quenya but that nasheed is too militant for my tastes.

>>96020609
>Song of Roland is about him beating up Saracens
>Actual roland got ambushed by Basques

That's a reason why the Iliad in itself was a bit disappointing. It's not self-aggrandizing shonen crap like Vedic Tales, but it is endless mindless violence interrupted by much more poignant and interesting sections. It actually shows you as much fun as fictional violence is for us boys that there is a fine limit to how much just becomes droning on and on. I've found of the old epics that Shahnameh has been the best written for me in terms of balancing action and story.

>>96020549
The tragedy (or comedy if you aren't big on moorcock like I am) is that he's going to be one of those regurgitated/reincarnated spiritual inspirations. That's a word salad, but by that I mean those who are familiar with him and his original works are vanishingly rare now and aged out relative to those who identify with the patisches based on his work: Warhammer overall with order/chaos, cursed sword, ect. Like you bring up
>white wolf
And people think the publishing company rather than what inspired the publishing company.

>>96020652
Don't forget.
>Akshually, Tolkien didn't had any influence OVER ANYTHING EVER!
>But I need to attack him because he has too MUCH INFLUENCE OVER EVERYTHING AND I HATE THAT!
Pathetic little worms. They both envy him and hate him at the same time.

>>96020603
Nowhere did a say Tolkien is the "blueprint." Nor did I say that Tolkien is the only fantasy. You're making up strawmen to argue against, fucking again.

>It doesn't matter that Tolkien is insanely influential in the sphere of fantasy, fantasy has stuff that Tolkien didn't write about, therefore you are wrong!

Still completely missing the point.

>>96020603
You tipped your fedora so hard it fell off your head, reddit faggot

>>96020417
Ww1 veterans are not boomers, you've worn that term out.

>>96020750
China is both a very celebrated author and wrote about Tolkien's greatness as well. Which again has been posted here

>>96020785
Tbf how much of this is specofically Tolkien and not the tropes he inadvertantly fed into?

>>96006058
So you ripped off Tolkien by basing your fantasy worldbuilding off of linguistics?

kek.
>>96007250
Basically all of these tropes are principally good. The fact that a ton of schlock gets made in imitation of the good stories that use these tropes does not actually speak badly of their source.

>>96007383
Have you read the Phil Phoglio comic adaptation of that? It's really good.

>>96020448
Beside the last one I have heard of those stories. What makes you think they are better than LotR?

>>96020448
The Ring saga is 100% not as goo as LOTR.

Beowulf is nearly perfect but is an entirely different format.

The Song of Roland isn't even the best part of the matter of France.

Haven't read the Kalevala in full, so I'll leave off discussion on that and just say I doubt it's as good as LOTR in practice.

>>96020794
Alright if I'm comically missing the point please explain in your own words what your point is.
I have tried to be forthcoming and honestly argue, but you seem to be oddly resistant to even acknowledging anything I actually say.
I'm not trying to construct a strawman to attack or misrepresent you, but you seem to be more interested in saying I've missed the point than actually saying what your point is or laying out arguments.

>>96020805
Party on dude.

>>96017411
No.

>>96017853
Everything in the image is obviously good, thanks for embarrassing yourself.

>>96020832
Tolkien wasn’t a linguist. He was a philologist. He’s not studied at all in modern linguistics nor literary studies for that matter.

>>96020785
Now you are making a strawman

>>96020892
My original statement was >>96007799

You're argument seems to be
>But there is fantasy that Tolkien didn't specifically write, and also myths and legends predate Tolkien!

That doesn't change the fact that, for most fucking people, LotR is *the* generic fantasy, that Tolkien has has an outsized influence on modern fantasy, and that, whether they are doing it well or not, a great deal of modern fantasy is either aping Tolkien, or aping people who were aping Tolkien. There is a definite shape of fantasy before LotR and after LotR. I'm not arguing that Tolkien is all fantasy. I never said that. But he has effecting the shape of all fantasy in an all encompassing way, in a way that Fritz fucking Leiber did not, and I think it would be good if it was the other way around.

Holy fucking shit, I didn't think "Tolkien was influential" was a fucking hot take.

>>96005836 (OP)
Because I want to live in the generic fantasy setting and be the generic fantasy hero who gets to fuck the generic fantasy wenches.

>>96020955
>That doesn't change the fact that, for most fucking people, LotR is *the* generic fantasy
It isn't Tolkien, it is a skinwalker using his name

>>96020811
The actual term is "boomer's boomer". "Boomer's boomer's boomers" would be the Zulu war vets.

>>96020883
LoTR is definitely a better story than Kalevala, because it is a novel. Kalevala is more a collection of traditional poems about folkloric heroes of old, which were then knit together, edited and even invented by the book's author to form a somewhat coherent story (Joukahainen didn't originally have a sister, that was Lönnroot's invention). It's definitely an emotional legend and a world classic, but it's a poetic tale first and a coherent story second, not a fantasy novel. Many characters come and go with little relation to one another, there are multiple side-stories outside the main plot about Sampo, and a lot of things happen that make very little sense in modern sense. Even the book itself just kinda ends due to characters only introduced for the ending, not because of what happened in the main plot. But that is the point of the book, because it's a collection of myths forged into an epic.

>>96020955
>But he has effecting the shape of all fantasy in an all encompassing way, in a way that Fritz fucking Leiber did not, and I think it would be good if it was the other way around.
He didn't, he is misblamed for the cliché fantasy.
I say it as a Tolkienfag.

>Holy fucking shit, I didn't think "Tolkien was influential" was a fucking hot take.
A lot of hacks attack Tolkien, claiming that he ruined fantasy, because of this, there's the counter arguments in these threads.
Pointing out how he didn't.

>>96020955
Right I never said Tolkien wasn't influential.

I argued that many of the tropes of modern fantasy are derived from sources other than Tolkien and that he's not the ONLY figure with an outsized influence. (Maybe the only singular figure as the others are generally canons or mythologies)

I didn't think that "Tolkien isn't the only significantly influential source for fantasy" was a hot take either but here we are.

>>96020962
Again, you're backing up my argument. The fact that the people copying him are doing a bad job doesn't change the fact that they are copying him.
>>96021045
He absolutely did, and no amount of "no he didn't lalalalala I can't hear you." is going to change that. I'm not making a statement about the quality of Tolkien, I don't like it but it's fine. But to try and deny his reach is just plain stupid.

>>96021059
>Tolkien isn't the only significantly influential source for fantasy

So we're back to "you're arguing against a straw man you made up to get mad at." Cool story, bro, keep charging at fucking windmills.

>>96021066
Right back at you, illiterate retard.

>>96021066
So you've never disagreed you just didn't want to say I'm right OK I guess I understand you now.
Although I don't really get what your end goal was.

>>96021063
>The fact that the people copying him are doing a bad job doesn't change the fact that they are copying him.
They aren't copying him, they are copying a vague idea of what fantasies is, if Lieber was in Tolkien's place, nothing would change, since they aren't copying Tolkien.
It is similar to Dracula, Frankenstein or Tarzan.

>He absolutely did, and no amount of "no he didn't lalalalala I can't hear you." is going to change that. I'm not making a statement about the quality of Tolkien, I don't like it but it's fine. But to try and deny his reach is just plain stupid.
What did he actually invent? Fantasy elves and orcs act nothing like his.

>>96021071
>No, I'm not arguing with you, you're arguing with me!

Stunning logic, impeccable.
>>96021077
>They aren't copying him, they are copying a vague idea of what fantasies is

But that vague idea is coming from him! Holy shit!

>What did he actually invent? Fantasy elves and orcs act nothing like his.

Do you not understand that there is a line of inspiration from a Tolkien elf to a generic fantasy elf? How much are you willing to lie, here?

>>96020811
>China is both a very celebrated author
Masturbaring to your mirror image doesn't make you celebrated, China. It means you are just a narcissistic twat

>>96021127
>But that vague idea is coming from him! Holy shit!
Not in its entirely, it is a skinwalker/Frankenstein's monster, there bits of Tolkien but a lot of other authors.
Tolkien just get the heat for being famous.

>Do you not understand that there is a line of inspiration from a Tolkien elf to a generic fantasy elf? How much are you willing to lie, here?
The line is Moorcock/D&D, D&D reinvented elves in the shape of melniboneans.

>>96005836 (OP)
What's the point of whining on the internet about other people liking what you don't like when you can just play what you like?

>>96021166
Attention, China admitted it.

>>96021077
So, in your mind, J.R.R. Tolkien wrote a book series with dwarves who live in mountains and love gold, elves who are immortal and live in the woods, and they hate each other, humanity on the rise, monsters like dragons and goblins and trolls running around, and now in the year of our Lord 2013+12, most people's idea of a generic fantasy land includes dwarves who live in mountains and love gold, elves who are immortal and live in the woods ,and they hate each other, humanity on the rise, monsters like dragons and goblins and trolls running around and that's what a coincidence?

>>96021155
Generic fantasy elves have a lot more in common with LotR elves than Melniboneans.

>>96021199
>So, in your mind, J.R.R. Tolkien wrote a book series with dwarves who live in mountains and love gold, elves who are immortal and live in the woods, and they hate each other, humanity on the rise, monsters like dragons and goblins and trolls running around
This is from Norse mythology, and other fantasy writers had multiple human-like races running around before Tolkien.

>most people's idea of a generic fantasy land includes dwarves who live in mountains and love gold, elves who are immortal and live in the woods ,and they hate each other, humanity on the rise, monsters like dragons and goblins and trolls running around and that's what a coincidence?
Most of cliché fantasy doesn't involve these elements or as Tolkien used them or at all, when they appear it is closer to chivalry/Arthurian.

>>96021204
Only in name, their role in story and way of acting are closer to Melbonians than humans without the first sin.

>>96021235
Tolkien also wrote Arthurian legend translations. And some of his oeuvre is definitely Arthurian in inspiration. Tolkien has his fingerprints all over fantasy tropes.

>>96021251
>Le Morte d'Arthur (originally written as le morte Darthur; Anglo-Norman French for "The Death of Arthur")[1] is a 15th-century Middle English prose compilation and reworking by Sir Thomas Malory of tales about the legendary King Arthur, Guinevere, Lancelot, Merlin and the Knights of the Round Table, along with their respective folklore, including the quest for the Holy Grail and the legend of Tristan and Iseult. In order to tell a "complete" story of Arthur from his conception to his death, Malory put together, rearranged, interpreted and modified material from various French and English sources. Today, this is one of the best-known works of Arthurian literature. Many authors since the 19th-century revival of the Arthurian legend have used Malory as their principal source.

>>96021301
>doesn't actually refute anything
I'm not even involved in this conversation, but it is very clear that you are the biggest retard in the thread. You can't be older than 20, only young fags like you are so unwilling to admit error that they are willing to make themselves look like complete buffoons.

>>96021325
I cannot find anything about Tolkien translating the death of Arthur, the book the writers cited as their inspiration

>>96021350
Count. In fact, the Arthurian revival began before he was born

>>96021350
>>96021372
You are checking Wikipedia for a citation. You must be underage. Learn to think without the internet.
Here, a quick Google search might convince you:
>J.R.R. Tolkien's engagement with Arthurian legend is significant, encompassing translation, original poetry, and thematic influence on his own works. He translated the 14th-century poem "Sir Gawain and the Green Knight" into modern English. He also began an unfinished alliterative poem, "The Fall of Arthur," exploring the legends. Furthermore, Arthurian motifs and themes subtly appear in The Lord of the Rings, with connections drawn between characters like Gandalf and Merlin, Aragorn and Arthur.

>>96021155
>The line is Moorcock/D&D
>>96021246
Its actually Poul Anderson's Three Harts & Three Lions elves. Which is in the Appendix N as one of the inspirations for D&D.
Tolkeins elves have surprisingly little to do with D&D elves despite lots of Tolkeinfags desperate whinings.

Honestly, Tolkeinfags love to hype up how much of fantasy is totally based on Tolkien's works or how everyone is just imitating Tolkien or how he's the base of D&D and it owes everything to Tolkien (despite Gygaxs own words disavowing this). They really need to spit out his rotted cock from their mouths.

>>96021376
>The Arthurian Revival
>In 1839 the Scottish painter Ronald McIan exhibited"Mark, King of Cornwalland his retinue", a subject from Walter Scott's 1802 edition of “Sir Tristrem”, the first use of a medieval Arthurian text as a source. In 1847, another Scottish painter, William Bell Scott, exhibited the first oil painting at the Royal Academy in which Malory'sLe Morte Darthurwas named as the source. Bell's “King Arthur Carried to the Land of Enchantment” quoted from Malory Book XXI, chapter vii, attached to the title in the catalogue;“Some men say in many parts of England, that Arthur is not dead; but by the will of our Lord Jesu, carried into another place, that he will come again and win the Holy Cross. And men say it is written on the tomb, 'Arthurus, Rex quondam, Rex furturus' – Romance of Arthur.”

>(1847)The republication of Malory'sLe Morte Darthurin the early 19th century stirred public interest in the Arthurian legend but it wasn't until Tennyson's reworking in a series of Arthurian poems rekindled popular interest in the legend. Tennyson was known to own a copy of the early 19th century reprint of Malory which provided the source material for his first published works “The Lady of Shalott” (1832) “Sir Galahad” and “Morte d'Arthur” (1842) Tennyson's early poems had whet the appetite but it wasn't until the first publication of “Idylls of the King” in 1859, covering the career of Arthur from birth to death, that the Victorian public's hunger for all matters Arthurian became insatiable;Idyllssold 10,000 copies within the first week. Following centuries of obscurity the Arthurian legend was about to make a spectacular return to British art.
Tolkien is so influential that he influenced retroactively.

>>96021386
Whether you love or loathe him, Tolkien has more influence on the cultural milieu than Lord Tennyson and his Arthurian poetic cycle. Tolkien's translations of Arthurian legends are still published to this day, yet I haven't met a single other person who has read Idylls of the King. I only read that stuff because I'm a poet.

>>96021397
The sword in the Stone books and Excalibur aren't based on Tolkien, they are based on older translation of the death of Arthur.

>>96021166
Masturbation-tier vanity.

>>96021407
And I can guarantee that Tolkien lives larger in the fantasy zeitgeist than either of those two works.

>>96021377
The weird thing is that the anti Tolkienfag who is doing it, despite the proofs of the contrary, he claims that Tolkien created the cliché fantasy

>>96021423
The only Tolkienesque work that I know, is Eragon.

>>96021407
>Sword in the Stone books and Excalibur
Literally who wrote those?
>>96021424
Big fat fantasy writers always claim that "Papa Tolkien" invented their genre.
>>96021429
Patrick Rothfuss, George RR Martin, R Scott Bakker, Brandon Sanderson, Robert Jordan... All these authors aped Tolkien's formula.

>>96021397
Unfortunately for you, most uses of the modern Gawain story come from someone who published in 1967 and Tolkein was merely one of the translators.

>>96021127
I countered a single assertion someone made.
You deflected.
I made claims.
You deflected.
I attempted to further substantiate them.
You deflected.

I don't get you here. I made a claim you could've agreed or disagreed at any point.
Instead you deflected and belittled me at every point and then acted baffled that I never understood what you were trying to get at, despite never being straightforward or cooperative.

I've said on multiple occasions that you are right Tolkien is influential, provably and definitively.
And at every turn you've acted high-handed and smugly sure of your own superiority.
Without even attempting to offer an olive branch.

I just don't get it.

>>96021434
>Big fat fantasy writers alw
Lieber claims that his sources of inspiration were Conan and the Worm Ouroboros.

>>96021445
Nta, but I'll give you a clue:
You BOTH need to touch fucking brass, for it's too late for grass.
How fucked up one must be to go on for such idiotic argument with full fucking sincerity? Do you fags even heard about such concepts like job or responsibilities?

>>96021441
Most of LOTR is inspired either by Norse mythology or Arthurian legend. Gandalf is obviously a stand-in for Merlin. We're just so used to stock character wizards that it's not as obvious.
>>96021456
That's one exception. The mainstream Big Fat Fantasy writers all talk about Tolkien. Even though GRRM criticized Tolkien for not having a tax scheme in his works, he is inspired by Tolkien's scope and tropes. Tolkiendrones began to spit the dummy that GRRM made that one small criticism though.

>>96021478
Other authors also do it, like Moorcock, or Tanith Lee.

>>96021487
>Moorcock
Famously hated Tolkien and his samey influence. He was even quoted as saying that The Broken Sword by Poul Anderson (written in the same year as Fellowship of the Ring) btfo Tolkien.
>Tanith Lee
She is stylistically and thematically subversive, something that should be lauded by China Mieville. You have good taste for knowing these authors, but they are outside the mainstream of fantasy readers. Most people read garbage, which maybe I shouldn't get hung up on, but it does influence TTRPGs and vidya games and movies.

>>96021129
>>96020985
Guys, give me some quality ffs. China is amusingly, no longer with it, but both very successful and has argued for and against Tolkien... which is fairly honest albeit coloured by his Trot leanings and desperate need for drum and bass wizards. It's ok to admit you don't read when it's this obvious. Tolkien (the House) wins because it's doubtful there will be the same amount of discourse about China, but it is it really so bad to challenge our assumptions from time to time? As a creative exercise?

>>96021045
I think of Tolkien being more like the Sisters of Mercy. The Sisters of Mercy have some good songs and are genre defining but became cringe because of a million Cleopatra Records clones. Now we live in an age where activewear is considered goth.

>>96021504
Why are in tg, Moorcock is something you read after going through Warhammer threads.
Tanith Lee was influenced by thousands and one nights.

>Moorcock.
He is surprisingly mainstream, thanks for derivative works, Kayn from league of Legends is based on Elric.

>>96021445
You've been arguing with a straw man you made up in your own head.

>>96021530
Look up #fantasy on TikTok or Instagram. It's going to be Tolkien or derivative works. Not Michael Moorcock.
>He is surprisingly mainstream, thanks for derivative works, Kayn from league of Legends is based on Elric.
I didn't know that but Moorcock isn't as mainstream as Tolkien.

>>96021538
Like an anon mentioned before, Moorcock's derivative works are more famous than he is.
For example Warhammer, Warcraft, the Witcher, Kayn from lol, etc...

>>96021547
>the Witcher
Now you're just spamming rumours and hearsay. Michael Moorcock believed the hype that Geralt of Rivia was based on Elric then pulled back any lawsuit because he realised Geralt was OC. It was found that Sapkowski hadn't broken copyright nor stolen anything.

>>96020063
>>96020063
Assuming the orthobro in the meme came to Russia, he would, in fact, see people praying for Putin to destroy the West.

>>96021534
Well apparently I wasn't arguing at all because you never disagreed with me in the first place.
You were just too autistic to say "Yes I agree with you other sources have had as significant an impact as Tolkien on modern fantasy"

>>96021547
Moorcock is relatively famous if less famous in 2025 than 1985. It's a weird sticking point between you guys. I would argue Moorcock is a big deal because he is a postmodern distillation of the Tolkienesque.

People even have weird impressions of Tolkien though. The big overarching qualifier is that he wrote for the lulz - ie he had a career. The other thing is, I don't really know if Tolkien needs much deconstruction. There are plenty of characters who are imperfect and there are strong insinuations that for all their perfection or craft, the demi human races made some big mistakes in the past in the pursuit of power. Even the Hobbits are not pure but I like how in same ways Tolkien argues for them in spite of them, as to say even a petty life form of great appetite and unremarkable form is part of creation and while they have to mature and live in a world that has changed, they are good enough to experience life.

>>96021558
>Me and fantasy, it was love at first sight. I remember reading Tolkien for the first time, in the sixties – Tolkien was published in Poland in the early sixties, practically at the same time as in the United States.

>I was utterly enchanted. Then Ursula Le Guin with Earthsea, Roger Zelazny with Amber, Michael Moorcock with Elric of Melniboné, Jack Vance with Lyonesse, Stephen R. Donaldson with Thomas Covenant, Marion Zimmer Bradley with The Mists of Avalon. In 1985, when “Fantastyka”, then the only Polish SF magazine, announced a literary competition, I decided – till today I don’t know why – to take part and write a short story. A fantasy short story, of course. And so it started.
It isn't plagiarized, but he took inspiration.

>>96021592
>Marion Zimmer Bradley with The Mists of Avalon

One of the most evil people in fiction. The one that broke my heart was David Eddings

>>96021592
>Ursula Le Guin

The left wing libertarian female author even chuds will concede is pretty good

The nuclear-hot truthpill that the sophists in this thread aren't ready for, is that Christopher Paolini BTFOs 99% of the authors mentioned here, like Moorcock and Le Guin.

>>96021563
Oh so now it's double down on the straw manning? Cool, good job, you're really killing it

>>96021563
As significant? Absolutely not. Not in the same way Tolkien did.

>tolkienfags are now unironically claiming that tolkien made king arthur popular

>>96020832
>imitation of the good stories that use these tropes
There are no good stories that use these tropes except for parodies that mock the said schlock. So no, these tropes aren't "principally good".

>>96021674
>Christopher Paolini
Literally who.

>>96023112
Eragon swill.

>>96022771
It was anti Tolkienfag who did it.

Walter Scott invented modern fantasy, I won't elaborate.

>>96024067
Tolkienfags don't even know who walter scott is
Even if they did they would get filtered by his prose and verse and go back to their childrens stories rather than reading one of the greatest writers of the 19th

>>96021514
I'll give you a clue:
Nobody, and I mean NOBODY gives a fuck about China Miéville, except people who try to (and always fail) to bait /tg/. The guy is so fucking ridiculous, it is impossible to take the endless spam of those threads for past half a year (and well over two decades after China's bout of "fame") seriously, so you get told to fuck off.
Which you read as "my arguments weren't refutted" and think you had an epic win against /tg/.
Kill yourself, you useless waste of limited resources

>>96005836 (OP)
>"his boys-own-adventure glorying in war"
Always funny when people who have lived in peace and comfort their entire lives forget that Tolkein spent months fighting on the frontlines of the Somme.

>>96025213
Ah, yes, /tg/, the place of epic satire knowing and highbrow with, such as pic related

>Adventurers with the cliche party make up in a generic fantasy
Kino
>Wierd alien fantasy with muh heckin original OC races with authors subtle fetish insert
Cringe...

>>96011955
All of the Commie faggots who knew how to write are geriatric now, the new ones are fucking retarded and talentless.

We're entering an era of restoration.