>alright Caine, you murdered your brother and for this I shall punish you by turning you into an immortal demigod with superpowers
VtM lore doesn't make sense

>>96018471 (OP)
VtM's lore is God gave Caine all the weaknesses (hatred of sunlight, etc.), plus immortality. It was Lilith who taught Caine how to use blood for magic powers.

>>96018471 (OP)
If you're cursed by God to never enter paradise that's a bad thing.

>>96018471 (OP)
Imagine you're a wretched monster, marked for everyone as a vile murderer abandoned by God. You must walk the Earth in solitude, forever denied paradise. In your desperation, you spread your curse to others, in order to have companions who are also immortal. Except God isn't an idiot, and this, too, is part of your punishment: with only each other as equals, your children will forever be paranoid of one another, and covet power.

Doesn't sound that great to me. Being superhuman isn't worth that.

>>96018471 (OP)
>wondering why a setting written by literally militant atheists has dumb and inconsistent writing on religion

>>96018506
>implying a religion famous for its inconsistencies is somewhat consistent and it's the atheists painting it in a bad light

In Christian mythology God does mark Cain to protect him. The real lesson and punishment for the VtM Cain is that he will endlessly witness his childe abuse and kill each other. Cain gets to see the sin he first introduced to the world play over and over again, powerless to stop it. His mistake laid bare. It doesn't matter how much dominion or superpowers he possesses, because what he really wants is forever out of his reach.

>>96018471 (OP)
>you will suffer eternally
>in place of a home, you must wander
>in place of life in the sun, only the dark of night
>in place of love, only charmed sycophants
>in place of loyalty, dominated thralls
>In place of children, backstabbing rivals
>in place of a legacy, doomed dilution and extinction
>in place of human connection, only hunger
>and strength, speed and power enough that nothing on earth will ever be able to get you out of it

its not exactly a walk in the park. also this is more headcannon, but you shouldnt take cain to be an actual vampire. he's a living antideluvian guy who's cursed, not a thrall or corpse reanimated by blood, and he took so long to raise his first childer that he was at least originally not very interested in making more of himself or evil for evil's sake. wherever he is these nights if he's awake and still on "earth" hes clearly not out drinking cities for fun. i like the cab driver in new york interpretation, where he could have redemption at any time but continues to suffer because he's unwilling to repent / doesnt believe he deserves it

Most incels would see vampirism as an immediate upgrade over their current situation imo

>>96018566
in what world being an immortal supermage who can hurl mack trucks like ping pong balls is considered a downgrade?

All God did was make Caine immortal and forced to wander forever and marked him so any harm done was returned sevenfold so he could survive until he repented.
Most of the vampire powers and curse were the result of the Archangels later visiting him and him doubling/tripling down on refusing to seek forgiveness, so they cursed him to never walk in the light of day and to be forced to feed on his children (Caine, and all extremely old and powerful vampires, literally cannot survive on mere human blood anymore, once you get that poweia vampire you need to be draining Vitae from other vampires to get any benefits.
Then, the actual "vampire superpowers" like Disciplines were taught to Caine by Lilith, who was kicked out of the Garden of Eden by God and who has eaten from both the tree of life and knowledge making her a demigod. Of course, Lilith's curse is even nastier than Caine's, making it so that she can NEVER know the love of another, and that anyone SHE loves will never return her affection or loyalty. So of course Caine immediately dumped Lilith the moment he was done learning superpowers from her and she's held a millenia long grudge against him since

>>96018594
I guess it sounds kinda cool for about a day. How often does that need actually come up in your life? Even the Finnish go crazy when they don't see the sun for a few months, now imagine forever.

>>96018566
Also most incels an hero eventually so I doubt immortality would appeal to them that much.

>>96018566
imagine it though
>autistic /fit/cel
>who cares that you're probably a thinblood, 3 str/ 3 melee and a bat is all you need to mog most childer or neonates
>humanity 8 because of your feeding restriction (lesser bitchmade blanks)
>no job, no license, last known residence is mom's house, feds and SI dont even know you exist
>cammies and sherrif have no hope
>go out once a week to hunt and spend the rest of your time training potence and celerity to hunt harder
if you make it through the first few years and roll a hunter for their flaming sword you're pretty much set for anything under 400 years old

>>96018471 (OP)
> You are immortal
> Aka locked out of Heaven forever
It's a terrible curse

>>96018471 (OP)
>completely ignoring the sheer spiritual costs of what in the grand scheme of things are unimportant powers
niggercattle take

>>96018626
>>96018668
rule in hell, or serve in paradise?

>>96018702
>Implying that you would actually rule or have any power in hell
lol lmao It's even funnier when you consider that the whole point of that novel was to show off Satan's charisma/lying powerlevel by getting readers sympathize with him despite y'know being Satan Using that quote without a hint of irony essentially shows that you're the exact kind of rube that is easily manipulated by Satan while thinking that you're actually the smart one

>>96018607
>she's held a millenia long grudge against him since
That's retarded. She knows she was cursed by God, and holds a grudge against Cain for something out of his control?

>>96018732
i bet you felt really smart typing that

>>96018732
It has been literal centuries and writers have still not realized that all portraying villains as sympathetic for any reason results to is that typical readers will think they are based gigachads who never did anything wrong.

>>96018779
>John Milton was actually just a ancient form of Sandrovich
That would be pretty funny
>>96018771
It was very euphoric

>>96018702
Obviously serve in paradise. What the fuck Is the point of ruling in hell? Oh gee, wow, more screaming damned souls to torture or some shit in this bleak, barren or frozen or molten landscape. Meanwhile, you can just be a regular guy in heaven and enjoy otherworldly peace and happiness.

Being a vampire on earth would become boring. Humans are just the same old humans, you still steamroll them, but not hard enough to be able to reveal your presence. And if you are that powerful, humans are useless because you need to feed on other vampires. You got superhuman attributes but nothing to use them on that aren't your own kind or other superhuman creatures, defeating the point of being superhuman

>>96018791
Basically the way to save vampire society is if aliens invaded and kindred could all become superheroes or some shit.

>>96018791
>What the fuck Is the point of ruling in hell
Ego tripping obviously

>>96018819
If you want it to be about neverending combat, at which point just play the 40k RPGs. The point of vampires in WoD isn't being combat monsters, is the struggle between wanting to return to being a regular human and coping with the curse and other vampires.

>>96018702
Better to be a living peasant than a king in the land of the dead

>>96018858
>If you want it to be about neverending combat, play werewolf
ftfy senpai

>>96018594
In the same setting where you can become an objectively more powerful mage or sorcerer without needing to become the bottom bitch for an inhuman monster.

>>96018594
In what world does being able to throw things well compare to the downside of being reduced to a crawling damned parasite incapable of living without inflicting suffering who will never know true love or happiness or fulfillment

>>96018626
You're basically either a lobotomized no-nothing or ultra-cruel bastard in heaven who can't decide to go against god, so maybe it's not actually a bad thing. At any rate, god might not even be god, since the canon welding of various Canaanite religions made Yahweh into a child of El and then fused them together (just as Jesus was eventually fused together in Christian tradition), so taking a Christian literalist interpretation of the bible as true might not be the best approach here.

>>96019166
>god might not even be god
I refuse to disagree with Juno Reactor.
https://youtu.be/KU-AzCXbLG8?si=W5EtxVO8xXMcKx7H

>>96019166
World of darkness leans very hard on the gnostic view of things.

>>96018500
>marked for everyone
Cain keeps fucking sneaking about the place though. If he had a big fucking sign on his head saying "hey I'm that nigga what killed his brother" then this shit might make a little sense.
>>96019070
>being reduced to a crawling damned parasite incapable of living without inflicting suffering who will never know true love or happiness or fulfillment
Okay but we're talking about immediate upgrades vs being an incel. Same difference.

>>96019309
>Okay but we're talking about immediate upgrades vs being an incel. Same difference.
It really isn't because most incels could be fine if they stopped making excuses and actually put in the effort to improve themselves but a vampire is actually completely and utterly fucked for the rest of their life.

>>96019323
No they're not. Just stop sucking off hobos and find some emo chicks that consent. ezpz moral dilemma solved. Incels face a far harsher burden than any vampire.
Imagine whining that you've become an immortal super powerful goth just because you have to convince someone to let you you suck them off sometimes.

>>96019339
You know what thinking about it I don't actually have much interest in listening to your pity party since it's all the same shit anyways.

>>96018702
Rule in Hell was a cope you mook.

>>96019339
Anon, VtM vampires aren't screwed because of direct vampire weaknesses, they're screwed because they're kidnapped into a permanent internship with no pay and no advancement opportunities. Vampire society is made of 90% immortal boomers that get their kicks from making the new-bloods miserable and are too powerful for you to oppose.
Add onto that the fact most vamps in charge have seven different ways to mind control you into Wanting to be their personal wagecuck

>>96018594
>oh n-

>>96018566
Okay, but vampires probably aren't turning neets. Got to be a little cool at the goth club to attract a vampire's attention

>>96018506
I might not like fedora tippers but Bible thumpers aren't much better, you're both annoying.

>>96019368
Isn't the Lasombra and Nosferatu status quo "let's ruin our childe's life lol" even

>>96018506
>>96018514
You are both faggots

>>96018471 (OP)
>t. didn't read the actual lore
Way to expose yourself, nigger faggot

>>96018471 (OP)
Correct. That is why Vampire the Requiem has the superior lore and vampires.

>>96018471 (OP)
>alright Lucifer, you rebelled against me and for this I shall punish you by letting you rule over your own domain and fuck with my favorite creation for thousands of years
Paradise Lost lore doesn't make sense

>>96021550
So superior it died and the company went back to Masquerade...

>>96019349
Because I'm right and it confounds you. Incels are bigger victims than vampires.
>>96019368
Then the real problem with being a vampire is vampire culture because vampires are just fucking assholes. That's even less sympathetic, they're just cunts then that ruin it for themselves. What a "curse".

>>96021884
It didn't die as such. Paradox cut it up and sewed it into Masquerade.

>>96021874
It does if you see L as controlled opposition/bogeyman.
>You get the shittier parts of the astral plane to lord over and in return help us cow the masses into obedience to the church so we can fleece the flock more easily. You can even use us as a threat to keep your own goons in line, too :^)

>>96018506
>>96018471 (OP)

It's borrowing on the anti-semitic trope of "the eternal jew" or "the wandering jew."

>>96018500
>You must walk the Earth in solitude, forever denied paradise
Cain literally just needs to apologize to God (and his brother). All God wanted from him was his best and the truth.

>>96020179
I am also an atheist and atheists are much much more annoying.

>>96021550
>VtR replaced all of the lore of VtM with spooky shadow owls and that's why it's the better game.
lmao

>>96018767
>This curse... is detrimental?

>>96018471 (OP)
Bible lesson. God cursed Cain to wander the earth forever but marked him so those that would harm him would be harmed seven-times in return (from which we have the phrase 'avenged seven-fold' and the accompanying band).

The punishment was to be forever immortally forced to witness a world that he would have no part in; to wander without rest forever and never be accepted into paradise. To wit, he would be forever the witness to his most grievous error.

Cain's attitude in VtM lore tracks with this in that he gets to watch his cursed progeny bicker, degrade and fight eternally, forever absent the love of his creator. If you didn't catch on, the awesome superpowers you get being a vampire are a consolation prize for being eternally damned and you will use them to scrape and scrabble by as your fellow vampires hunt you for political clout, sport or the very blood in your veins.

>>96018767
She's a woman

>>96018541
>because what he really wants is forever out of his reach.
He literally, figuratively and actually just had to apologize to God.

>>96023281
you are wrong fyi

>>96019339
>waah waah incels have it hard
You faggots wouldn't last a day as a GAMER

>>96018500
>In your desperation, you spread your curse to others
How? Caine and Abel were the first two sons of Adam and Eve, WHAT OTHERS could they spread it to?

>>96019070
I mean its a straight upgrade for permanently online /pol/ posters?

>>96018791
>Meanwhile, you can just be a regular guy in heaven and enjoy otherworldly peace and happiness.
I feel like you're missing out of the God of oWoD being a bit of an asshole.

>>96019510
>Okay, but vampires probably aren't turning neets
I dunno, I'm sure some sabbat mass embrace has turned a few for shits and giggles.

>>96018471 (OP)
Like it's been already said other than immortality and seven times thing Caine only got negative things from god, vampirism stuff comes from Lilith
As for the reason why god didn't intervene after Caine got his superpowers, it's implied god stopped caring about Earth and humans pretty quickly after creating them

>>96019302
Chronicles does that, I wouldn't call WoD Gnostic at all, especially with DtF

>>96018471 (OP)
God didn't just "give" Caine "superpowers" and turn him into an "immortal demigod", you should read the Land of Nod for yourself but >>96018607 is an accurate rundown

>>96021874
He may have created his own kingdom is his place of exile, but Hell is still a shitty place.
Consider if some criminals got exiled on some barely habitable island with nobody else living there. Their leader could declare himself king of the island, but he'd be better off being an ordinary dude living on the mainland than ruling over a square mile of wave-beaten rock and some shrubbery.

>>96023745
>Consider if some criminals got exiled on some barely habitable island with nobody else living there.
Like, Australia?

>>96023836
>nobody else living there

No. Not at all like Australia.

>>96023877
the joke, your head, etc.

>>96023271
Cassandra was cursed to always predict the future but with no one ever believing her, and she didn't take it on the others like it was their fault they didn't believe her

>>96018479
>If you're cursed by God to never enter paradise that's a bad thing.
Like I'd want to entertain the presence of that narcissistic tyrant.

>>96023493
Which also means that entering heaven is no longer guaranteed. Which means the only reason why one would not become a vampire has become moot. Good to know.

>>96024811
Cassandra died too quickly to really nurse that grudge.

>>96018767
Because curse or not he still treated her like shit? The curse is applied on HER, it makes so she will only ever fall in love with shitheads. It doesn't make people shitheads, Cain was already one.

>>96022231
>What a "curse"
Vampires being assholes is part of the curse from god. Every vampires have a secondary animal consciousness designed to erode the host's consciousness and free will grafted onto their brain.
Caine's curse isn't the vampirism, it's that anything he tries to build will be destroyed by his children killing each other. He was given all the power in the world so that he could know what it felt like to be God when he killed abel, seemlingly all-powerful yet still unable to do anything.

>>96025140
>It doesn't make people shitheads
It explicitely does. If lilith falls in love with you, you instantly become a callous asshole. VtM goes by Old-Testament rules, AKA: the version of God that's absolutely willing to violate free will to make a point.

>>96025302
>to make a point
Or, y'know, just 'cause.

>>96018479
>never enter paradise
Caine can though. Lucifer even bitched about that and everything. The deal is that God would accept Caine back anytime Caine wanted, but God also knows at the same time that Caine's gigantic ego won't allow him to accept that ending. So it's a never ending game of waiting for the good of free will to triumph over pride

>>96023262
tell me the spooky shadow owl lore

>>96023393
Elaborate on that. You know. Using words.

>>96025326
>Lucifer even bitched about that and everything.
Gets even funnier when you know the backstory of DtF. Lucifer's rebellion was originally part of god's plan as something he worked out with God, and was essentially a metaphysical chess game meant too speed up the enlightenment of the mortal watching rather than an actual war. It was Caine's dumbass that destroyed everything with his murder stunt, because it wasn't Just murder, he literally poisoned the universe itself to such an extent that the rebellion turned into a bloody Genocidal Conflict. God and Lucy then had a falling out because God blamed Lucy for the entire thing and demands he "Repent" before he can let back into heaven and Lucifer is understandably pissed big G blamed Caine's tantrum on him.

>>96025375
>God and Lucy then had a falling out because God blamed Lucy for the entire thing and demands he "Repent" before he can let back into heaven and Lucifer is understandably pissed big G blamed Caine's tantrum on him
The funniest thing is that there is a paragraph literally stating that God doesn't care about all of that and found it funny. As in it literally stated he laughed. Even when the entire OWOD cosmology got destroyed, he preserved Caine specifically and laughed at him while waiting for his apology. Let me see if I can find it

>VtM lore doesn't make sense
Of fucking course it doesn't.
The setting of World of Darkness expanded to a retarded degree to the point they had to rewrite the whole thing, remember?

>>96025413

>>96018551
*antediluvian, but otherwise a solid post

>>96025336
the origin of vampirism and the beast that dwells in the heart of vampires may be spooky shadow owls that are the apex predator of vampires and that manipulate vampire society from the shadows and strike fear and paranoia in the hearts of the few vampires that know them
they are to vampires what vampires are to humans and they are spooky shadow owls
this is the superior lore of vampire the requiem that makes it a better game than vampire the masquerade

>>96023745
>“Me miserable! which way shall I fly
Infinite wrath and infinite despair?
Which way I fly is hell; myself am hell.”
Hell isn't just a shitty place, Lucifer leaves the physical confines of his domain only to realize he's the problem.

>>96025811
fucked up the greentext, but you get the point

>>96025140
The curse makes people she loves reject her. So yeah, it does turn people into shitheads

>>96025764
But isn't the point of Requiem also that the lore is looser and the storyteller has a lot more freedom in molding it into his ideal vampire tale than Masquerade? At least that's how I remember it being in the first edition.

>>96026289
>the storyteller has a lot more freedom in molding it into his ideal vampire tale than Masquerade?
No, this is basically cope from chronicles fans. The old world of darkness games didn't force you to subscribe to the metaplot and actually had a long list of ways to ignore it and change things up entirely in the storytellers handbooks for each splat. You could have werewolves fighting Space Aliens unrelated to the wyrm, vampires combating a zombie apocalypse, etc.

>>96026289
"you can ignore it if you want to" is not a good defence of any TTRPG's problems
you can ignore the bad shit of any game but that doesn't change the fact that the game was poorly written

>>96018541
>The real lesson and punishment for the VtM Cain is that he will endlessly witness his childe abuse and kill each other.
And I guess all the misery they inflict on completely innocent people and the world at large is perfectly fine with big G because..... uh......

>>96027095
Same reason as all the kids starving in africa, people's misery is100% part of the plan.

>>96027095
God in WoD is in complete observer mode. He fucked about at the start then just sat back to watch. He's wholly uninterested in intervening at all

>>96027095
Because you can pick between either free will or happiness, you can't have both.

>>96027095
There's a lot of the Bible dedicated to getting square with Him by killing the innocent and shedding their blood while their bodies burn, anon. Christianity goes even further with it; He's so hard about it that He spilled His own son's blood. And He desires it yet still, according to Revelations.

>>96027095
You'd think by now most people would know that the god of abrahamic mythology is just an evil cunt but I guess some people are late to the party.

>>96018771
Anon thats not even a naval gazy ivory tower interpretation. That is literally Milton's intention. Look up the sequel.

>>96018791
>Obviously serve in paradise. What the fuck Is the point of ruling in hell?
the quotes basically a self own for the reason you stated. The only person who would want to rule a place of eternal torment is someone who gains pleasure from the mere concept of ruling. All they want is power over others.
The fact that its still quoted by pseuds to this day is proof that there is a god and he is laughing.

>>96028589
"But he loves you!"

>>96028637
>naval gaze

I, too, get really enthusiastic looking at sleek ships, anon.

>>96028650
Heaven lobotomizes you - the you that chose to serve in heaven will be reduced to a thought-limited emanation that cannot conceive of sinning, yet also takes pleasure from the Abominable Fancy of watching sinners punished in hell, or else is otherwise unaware of hell or untroubled by it as it is out of sight.

>>96029412
>Heaven lobotomizes you
How's it worse than being the lord of hell? Yah, it fucking sucks knowing that (in wod lore) heaven means losing free will and becoming retarded, by all means, but at least you you become lobotomized you will be unaware of your condition and be happy. Free hell in hell is, at the very best, just as miserable. You aren't a drooling shade, but you have nothing. Just a place of endless torment where you can only exercise your power on wretched souls. Why would Lucifer (again, in setting) seethe against God otherwise? It fucking sucks, there's nothing to do except try to gotcha! mortals and that has to get boring quickly, which could be hundreds of years but since you're a god, that's nothing in the entire span of eternity

>>96018473
fpbp

OP is a dumb fag no gamer

>>96018500
>just curse innocent people bro

>>96019510
Counterpoint: Tremere are fucking nerds

Honestly I prefer the animist/spirit/ancestor orientated lore of Werewolf over the rigid Christian lore of Vampire. It feels more natural to me that it's just natural forces that are out of balance and far from perfect and that's why the WoD setting it's so screwy, over "no, it's just God's masterplan, maybe, not really and that's why there's like vampires and shit around lol".

>>96032045
Abrahamic mythology is just not interesting. Even the cool parts were ripped off from better religions.

>>96032064
This just tells us you don't know anything about abrahamic lore. Shit is fucking lovecraftian. The "All Good and Loving God" is also a heretical myth, Big G straight-up tells us he's a "Cruel and Jealous God". Dude isn't in charge because he loves us, he's in charge because he's the strongest and has zero issues laying out anyone who challenges his rule.

>>96032106
muh heresy
muh lovecraftian God
tradcaths are pathetic

>>96025080
*tips fedora*

The entire WoD franchise is retarded and doesn't make sense. There's a truckload of money just waiting to be collected for someone to make a traditional dark fantasy RPG set in pre modern days centered around vampires/werewolves and the like without any ridiculous "unique" tacked on bullshit.

>>96032106
>Abrahamic God
>Lovecraftian
>gets mogged by iron chariots
lol

>>96032155
He's not wrong tho.

>>96032155
Nah

>>96018473
This. VtM lore doesn't make any sense and it's still the least retarded oWoD setting but this is not a good example of it.

>>96032198
Tbqh most lovecraft monsters get fucked by things made from iron, at least temporarily.

>>96032198
>>96032217
>monsters get fucked by things made from iron
Aren't those fairies?

>>96032217
>Cthulhu gets low-diffed by a steamboat
>YHWH gets low-diffed by iron chariots
There's something about divine beings falling to blunt-force trauma from speeding vehicles that needs to be investigated further.

>>96030154
Identity death, anon. Again, you're not you in heaven. It's someone else.

>>96032277
With Cthulhu, it's because the stars weren't right.

With YHWH, it's because all of the omni-stuff is a pretty recent addition after numerous centuries of apocalyptic cults and eventual spread outside of the region where they originated and admittance of anyone they came across with a mandate to proselytize.

tl;dr make God a being of the Dreaming. If the WoD says that God ist tot anyway, it kind of fits.

>>96032106
The main issue is wanting your God to be al knowing, all powerful, and all encompassing while at the same time going "so why does he allows bad and stupid shit to happen?"

>>96032319
>classic "stars weren't right" eldritch cope

>>96032326
That argument has never made one bit of sense. It hinges entirely on an extremely basic view of the purpose of existence which is entirely not the way Christians or indeed most religions view the purpose of life here on Earth. God giving free will is not a bad thing.

>>96023464
You know that's a funny premise for a character.

>>96032433
>uuuuh no you're wrong!
>doesn't actually say why
>doesn't refute the argument
Typical.

>>96032433
The argument most religions have for it is flimsy at best, stupid at worst but we would flood this thread if we start debating about it.
True to be told, many bad things happen to people that unrelated to free will.

>>96032433
>God giving free will is not a bad thing
God didn't give free will, the serpent did.

>>96032480
>The argument most religions have for it is flimsy at best
Do you even know most religions or are you assuming every religion is some offshoot of modern christianity?

>>96032493
Also the serpent wasn't Satan, but a talking snake that was apparently fairly standard for whatever was going on in the Garden of Eden (cue Iron Butterfly).

>>96032500
I'm talking about monotheistic religions that give their deity the
>omniscient
>omnipotent
>omnipresent
>omnibenevolent
treatment, mostly

>>96018479
It's nice to see level headed theologians to counter reddit atheists

>>96025469
>screams about dying
>laughs because dumb motherfucker STILL can't say' hey, maybe I messed up. I'm sorry'

>>96026460
>The old world of darkness games didn't force you to subscribe to the metaplot
The metaplot is all it really had going for it. The idea that people 'could change it up' when that never functionally happened doesn't work irl.

>>96033465
I cannot recall any monotheistic faith that is like that other than the Abrahamic ones.
Even Zoroastrianism says outright that man comprises light and darkness, and can choose which to embody. It's closer to the African Bush belief.

>>96033611
>other than the Abrahamic ones
The two abrahamic ones, specifically modernised post-protestant christianity and modernist islam.
Even old christianity didn't believe in the "omnibenevolent" shit. The benevolent guy was jesus, who was defending them from Old Testament God's wrath(or believed they were trapped in a universe with an evil god if gnostic)

>>96033591
>Proudly declaring to everyone he's a nogame.
The vast majority of actual players ignored the metaplot anon. Hell, even skimming the old whitewolf forums would have told you this, but I guess you wouldn't know about those as a nogame.

>>96018471 (OP)
>Ends up unable to make anything lasting with those powers and his children nonstop killing each other.

Sounds like trolling to me.

>>96032205
>LARPagan

Now that's embarrassing. Consider the merits of fedora atheism at least. "Your" myths wouldn't even exist but for the Christian chroniclers who recorded them.

>>96033591
Maybe if you weren't a W:tA player. The metaplot in that was so light as to be nearly invisible and intangible; even if something happened like the Stargazers leaving the Garou Nation, there was generally acknowledgment that people could still play them.

>>96032198
>literally choosing to misinterpret a verse because funny haha
They literally beseeched God because THEY, the israelites, the people were beaten, not God
You beg God for help and put on your level IV plates but OOPS you got droned
Who was defeated by drones, you or God?
The actual willful brain damage of so-called people when something makes the rounds is sickening, just read the words, they're in front of your face

>>96033951
>wouldn't even exist but for the Christian chroniclers who recorded them
And editorialized them. Then there's the 19th century nationalists/linguists/anthropologists who dug this stuff back up after centuries of irrelevance, and finally the 20th century hippies who basically rewrote and headcanon'd all that shit, paying lip service to being "reconstructionist" while completely throwing out any kind of rigorous academic historiography, archeology, and anthropology. Wicca is le heccin valid...

>>96034683
It wasn't the Israelites, it was Judah. Different kingdom. (Judges 1:19)

>>96020260
You didn’t prove them wrong tho.

Why do we still pretend vampirism is bad when there are plenty of examples of good vampires?

>>96034683
>You beg God for help and put on your level IV plates but OOPS you got droned
So he couldn't help you, or he couldn't be arsed.

>>96027095
Do you want free will or do you want to be an ambulatory pile of meat that just lies there and jacks off all day because it feels good?

>>96035089
Right, they've been heavily Christianized too.

>>96032277
The boat didn't really do anything to Cthulhu. He was just cranky at getting up early, the boat woke him up enough to look at the time, and he fucked off back to sleep.

>>96023407
Adam and eve kept fucking

>>96038067
I mean she can only pop one out every 11 months or so at a maximum, there can have been that many people about, like 40 or so max?

>>96038563
dont forget the first few humans were mages in WoD. Hell, Caine is technically not even a vampire

Magefag wank is so exhausting.

>>96039404
Don't you have better things to do than try to bait autists anon?

>>96036226
Is your barometer for being good children's programming?

>>96039468
>anyone who's tired of the endless magewank is baiting
Case in point. So tired.

>>96018500
>God allows other innocents to be cursed to just further punish a guy he made an immortal
That's stupid.

>>96040101
>God allows sinners to sin
Welcome to the very basics of religion.

>>96040109
>it's your fault you were turned into a bloodsucking undead monster against your will (be honest, NOBODY is Embraced with their informed consent) doomed to prey on living people and thrust into an environment where you have to be a sociopathic manipulator just to survive
Christian compassion on full display right there.

>>96018471 (OP)
In the Deamon lore they explain the concept of violence wasn't truly formed before the First Murder. Even if the Rebellion had already started, up until then, loyalists and angels fought art battles, essentially, nobody got hurt. The moment Caine killed Abel, everyone started fighting for real. God didn't throw the curse, its just the metaphysical effect of violence first being iterated.

>>96018471 (OP)
Cain is a cursed immortal who can never feel real pleasure or joy again, and who is trapped in a perpetual state of half-life. All Vampires are. The reason Vampires are all so fucking miserable and depressed and sociopathic is because they're anhedonic predators. The closest thing they can ever feel to joy is animal pleasure, and it's devoid of all emotional content.

So imagine being clinically depressed, except there's no ending to it. Like crushing, grinding, constant depression, a black void of exhaustion and misery, you can't even enjoy the little things anymore, not really. You also can't die, you can't ask for help, you can't find any relief except by sleeping--and even that is a tortured, restless hibernation.

Wow sucks right, but at least you'll die someday. Oh wait! You're immortal, and even if you are destroyed, you're fucking Cain, guess what you know is real?
HELL. So the only thing that you have to look forward to is some immeasurable period of crushing pitch black misery, and then an eternity of screaming fire.

Yeah, it's a fucking curse dude, the only thing shittier than being a Vampire in WoD is being a Ghost from the old games. Being a Vampire is like being stuck in an eternal suicidal mafia. It fucking blows.

>>96040645
Protestants are fucked, Catholics will be fine just go find a priest, 100% they've got some Diocese-based Vampire aid program to keep you on donated blood while they try and figure out if it's possible to save you. Same guys whose answer to aliens is that they can probably be baptized.

>>96040101
There are no innocents. One of the basics of Christianity is that there are no good people, only sinners of varying degrees.

There was one (1) good person, once. He was crucified. The power gap of virtue between a regular person and God is so vast that the distinction between a regular person and Joseph Stalin is trivial in comparison, in the same way that two photons impacting Earth are measurelessly trivial in luminosity compared to the sun. Ergo, human beings are only, and can only be saved from their own cruel nature by divine grace.

Vampires aren't even human anymore. The human soul left upon them dying and becoming a vampire, what is left is a reanimated corpse with the memories and experienced qualia of the person, minus the immortal soul. It's totally understandable that God wouldn't be interested in saving something that is essentially a Chinese Room mockery of a human.

>>96044733
mary had immaculate conception though, so there were two. so it's possible for people to be good, god just chooses to not allow it

>>96044752
Mary received divine grace. God is not preventing you from being good, it just isn't possible because you're human. The most you can do is be less bad, the entire point of this is that pride on one's own righteousness is always hypocritical, because nobody is ever righteous. By acknowledging this, and seeking salvation from the divine, you may be forgiven for your faults, and it is easier if your faults are not too egregious.

For a Vampire this seems pretty open shut. Your most egregious fault as a Vampire is that you exist. You're not alive, so eliminating yourself isn't suicide. A Christian Vampire has no excuse not to destroy himself immediately.

>>96023281
T. never read Time of Judgement
Immortality wasn't his punishment, retard. It was God's way of giving him infinite time to repent. Caine can at any time say he's sorry and he'll be instantly saved.

>>96044733
>There are no innocents. One of the basics of Christianity is that there are no good people, only sinners of varying degrees.
This is also stupid.

>>96044846
Being entirely fair, Time of Judgement was pretty shit though.

>>96039404
>>96039829
I blame whoever repopularized crossover oWoD recently. It doesn't work no matter how you try to swing it and motherfuckers will tie themselves into knots trying to make it make sense.

>>96040645
>>it's your fault you were turned into a bloodsucking undead monster against your will (be honest, NOBODY is Embraced with their informed consent)
Not what was said, idiot.
The vampire is the sinner. The act of Embrace is a sin. It's nothing more than an elaborate rape, and God doesn't stop any OTHER rapist, so why stop this one?

>>96044871
Why? Canonizing the fact that people are all flawed and that moral perfection is not possible or required for salvation is one of the most reasonable and measured approaches to a religious moral system possible.

>>96044827
>A Christian Vampire has no excuse not to destroy himself immediately.
Does a vampire know for certain that it has no soul? The player knows they don't (I don't know why we know) but as far as I can tell there is no objective evidence in-game that proves the vampires have no soul, which I find to be rather poetic because humans similarly have no proof they have a soul. Like the vampires are not even certain about their genesis - like why the fuck should they believe the stories about Caine especially when any vampire smart enough to survive knows they are being fucked around with by every other vampire.

A point I'm getting at is that Christians are asked to do very little to get into heaven. Protestants require faith in Jesus dying for their sins and Catholics require that plus good deeds and ritual practices. A vampire who has no certainty about the status of their soul could remain convinced that the rules for entry to heaven have not changed despite their transformation from human to vampire.

Vampires can project into the astral realm, and if they lose their way there the body stays immobile, almost as if something like a soul is missing.
They can also bargain their souls with demons directly. How do you explain that if they don't have them?

>>96045214
>I designed people badly on purpose

>>96045508
This is actually brought up in the bible and God responds with the infamous "shut the fuck up, jug" line. Some vessels are made for honor, others for dishonor, nobody complains when a potter does it and it does no good to complain when God does it.

It's a bit like complaining that the author put conflict in the story.

>>96045577
>the author put conflict in the story
like for entertainment? So we suffer to amuse him or his angels?

>>96045610
I'm not really equipped to give you a teleological justifcation for art, Anon, that's much harder than explaining Christian soteriology.

>>96018471 (OP)
this was probably already said before but wth God only gave him the vampiric weaknesses (sunlight, needing to drink blood, undeath, being surrounded by assholes all his days, probably the Beast I guess), not powers. The immorality portion was meant to extend his suffering indefinitely. It wasn't until he met Lilith that she gave him powers (or rather taught him to use the divinity of God's curse for powers or something, IIRC).

>>96044827
I think this is a poisonous interpretation of the bible and actively encourages people to sin. It ignore everything that talks about "Do onto Others" in favor of saying that "loving God" is the only rule that matters.
I don't think the people subscribed to this mindset are going to be as set as they think they are when they need to report to the cosmic principles office.

>>96018473
>>96018471 (OP)

Also by this time Caine is so powerful in his blood that he cant not see his dependents constantly. So he is trapped un able to die watching a bunch of edge lords run around being cringe.

>"Hey chaos exists in the galaxy and is gonna try to manipulate you into hating me, so don't succumb to it"
>...is what I'm not gonna tell to my sons
40k lore doesn't make sense

>>96046594
This only makes sense if you are a secondary that heard a statement online, but didn't read the material yourself.
This was directly addressed in universe about why this would not work.

>>96046625
>This was directly addressed in universe
And it was disproven in the same book.
Try as they might, the writers aren't squaring this circle anon, and That's the Fucking Point. You Aren't Supposed to look up to the emperor in the first place.
The real secondaries are the imperium and chaos fanboys shitting up the fucking hobby.

>>96045222
Checked. Good question, I'm curious as well.
Hypothetical Christian to vampire should find out their first contact with Holy Ground or Corpus Christi in Cross, Communion wafer Sacramental wine and/or Holy Water right? If we're using Christian Theology/Folklore.
I know that has no bearing on Vampire themed games. If Vampirism is a curse wouldn't the subject of it know immediately, 'cause curses are never fun?

>>96045222
>The player knows they don't
He's wrong. Souls are the entire reason diablerie works and why vampires can become wraiths. The inconnu even have a ritual to summon diablerie victims out of their diablerist just so they can talk with them.
Vampires are just overdramatic and like to wax on about how evil and edgy they are in the books. Pretending they don't have souls is one of those things.

>>96044878
It has some fun ideas, but I have to agree with you. The Lilith scenario was written by a Jewish Lilith worshipper and is basically just him sucking her off and talking about how great she is.

>>96018471 (OP)
Its a setting where noone knows about the 20 different secret supernatural organization that secretly control the world. Obviously its not going to make full sense.

>>96027095
The entire WoD universe is literally a science experiment that God can and WILL reset all the way back to the first chapter the second Caine decides to stop being a cunt. That's literally it. Caine ruined everything forever. He didn't just murder his brother he invented the very concept of murder and poisoned all reality with that madness, ruining the entire plan in one arrogant action and God would instantly undo that mistake for Caine and let the world flourish like it should if Caine could actually accept that he fucked up.

>>96025080
I can feel the resentment of your parents, possibly even your pastor and entire community, from here.

Have you ever wondered what you're doing with your life?

>>96052291
oWoD cross-splat is an unworkable mess and this has been well known since the 90s.

>>96025326
>god creates a man whose ego means he'll never do X
>god says "Go on, do X, I'll forgive everything you ever did if you do it"
What a bastard.

>>96040645
Anon. vampires aren't real. What are you talking about? Making up moral dilemmas to then blame on Christians is your pastime or something?

>>96044871
Find a man alive who has not sinned. We'll wait. Why get mad over something simply true?

>>96045860
God simply spoke the truth to us, Anon. Go find someone who has not sinned. We can't wait, but you already know you won't find one, don't you. Even if you had 1000 lifetimes to look. It would never happen. At best you will find men who have convinced themselves they are righteous by ignoring their own crimes.. or convinced their crimes are fine because their deeds are greater than their crimes. Which are far more dangerous mindsets than what you accuse free grace of causing. Which isn't true anyway.

>>96045508
>>96045577
>>96045610
>>96045664
I'm not convinced people actually want the answer, but here we go.

First, understand the ship has already sailed. We're in love with sin by nature. I'm not sure 'original sin' is the correct take to perpetuate, but our love of sin is so as to always pick it eventually. No one found righteous. No not one. At that point, the condemned don't really have the right to complain about being condemned, do they? We ARE guilty. We are. That is a simple fact. It's not contestable. If you go to the gallows afterward, you can wail all you like. It won't change that you did the crime. Mercy is.. a selective value. Not an owed one. Being 'owed' mercy would be the same as having never committed the crime at all. Put another way, mercy is mercy precisely because you NEED it but are not OWED it.

But God has seen fit to declare that ALL will be saved if they believe on Jesus Christ. Confess Christ with your lips and believe in you are saved. Faith is counted as righteousness by God. It's THAT simple. Don't like your fate as rotten crockery doomed for the burning trash heap? Turn to Christ. Not sinning or understanding of theology aren't even listed requirements for salvation. Though you'd be shocked how shit life can be if you continue in it. Still, it's that easy.

Some men are, as such, picked out for mercy. Which they were not owed. It's the selective will of God. Some are, as such, left to their own hearts. Which are far from God. You won't hear those men complain. Pharoh was VERY HAPPY to hate God with all his might every moment he did it. Do you think God is wrong here? You'll find the equation doesn't add up if you insist on that. Man sins happily. Greedily. If you are sad in your lot, you could have faith in God instead. Be saved despite how wretched you are. So why don't you?

Because you love sin more. Your deeds are dark because you love the darkness. If you insist you feel differently, scorn the dark and love Christ.

>>96052705
Love without free will is meaningless
Caine can choose to be a cunt for all eternity, if he doesn't have that choice then his eventual repentance will have meant nothing.

>>96032205
Your "god" is destined to be eaten by a snake.
My God crushes the snake's head with his foot.
And he never wore a dress to pretend to be a woman.
Thor, more like Trannor.

>>96052963
Your god was a childless jew that was nailed to cross by Romans

>>96053017
And burried. And resurrected on the third day. According to the scriptures. Having overcome sin AND death. Amen.

>>96018551
Just wanted to add (thought pertinent to the discussion): In Biblical canon, he also could not grow crops of any kind, all earth before him laid infertile by his mark, adding further fuel to his plight: An existence without roots, no home, no food, just ash and sand.

>>96018551
In WoD he sits in a cave forever, feeling all the bullshit his children pull on each other and experiencing their suffering. If he ever tries to use his incredible powers to intervene in something in any way God will immediately make the Sodom and Gomorrah look like a fucking joke so he can personally view what he cares about getting ripped away from him.
Him being a cab driver is arguable because of that. It is intervention but it is a purely natural, minor form of help that they could theoretically get from anyone and also that God hates the Kuei-jin a fucking lot so is willing to turn a blind eye to Caine's minor intervention since he's still mostly an observer.

>>96048734
Just because BLsloppers turned him into a vessel for their daddy/religion issues doesn't mean GEoM was always a cringe redditor. He used to be a genuinely heroic but broken and tragic figure. As usual you can blame this faggy version of warhammer on HHtroons

>>96052930
But I think the philosophical problem is if God knows Caine won't do it did Caine ever really have a choice?

>>96018471 (OP)
>an immortal demigod with superpowers
The Superpowers came from Lilith
3 Angels then gave him the cures that Vampire have like drinking blood,burn in sun,fear fire
So it he only didn't fuck a demon he'd just be a Mummy in the setting