I have a really stupid question about World of Darkness.
What exactly prevents the werewovles from breaking down Pentex's gate and slaughter everyone? I got the impression werewolves were among the toughest creatures in World of Darkness, but they're allowing desk jockeys and pencil pushers to push them around?

>>96035977 (OP)
Ask the general.

>>96036276
There are no generals, this isn't /vg/.

>>96035977 (OP)
Lets ask that question seriously
>My country cannonically has 500 werewolves living in it right now
>about a quarter are combat specialists
>the rest are leaders and spiritualists, skill monkeys, support, ect
>of that 25% are basically teenagers with next to no experience or gifts
>maybe 20 total are over 100 years old

Meanwhile
>pentex uses shell companies and their HQ is offshore, and they own shares in subsidiaries, so where do you hit?
>say you hit the water company, it actually employs 3.5k people. How many of them are you going to kill? And how many are at home that day?
>even worse, the people who actually need killing either are or employ fomori, so you'd better hope your wolves stayed grouped up and dont get jumped
>some of those top tier fomori are absolute monsters, so i hope they arent going around playing whack-a-mole with your amateur packs
>on top of that pentex employs multiple kill teams with silver bullets and at least two fomori as anchors, so i hope you get out before they arrive

And through all that you need to not
A) die
B) lose the wolf from depression
C) lose yourself to bloodlust and forget your goal and humanity
D) get your sacred site paved over while you were off fucking around
E) have strand spiders or worm agents intervene directly because you're wrecking their shit
F) have the entire vampire population descend on you like a swarm of flies to use your blood for alchemy

In short, its unviable. And they do it anyway, and its why they're dying out. In the current edition they've actually already lost.

Sure, an average werewolf can obliterate a private security team, but half of all werewolves are below average, and they have to wipe that hit squad out a few hundred times over. If only one in ten thousand people are fomori then there's as many of them in this city as there are garou in the country. Not to mention vampires are often conservatively put at 1% - thats 100 vampires per woof.

>>96035977 (OP)
>>96038146

>>96035977 (OP)
>We have the WoD general
>We have a "questions that don't require a thread" thread
>OP be like "i'm gonna poooooost!"
>Then bumps his retarded thread from the bottom of the catalog

>>96038161
...oh.
Well I did say it was a stupid question, but I never realized how strong Pentex was. I keep remembering that scene in that movie where two fallen angels just walk in a board of directors, tell everyone why they suck, and then execute them.

>>96038146
There are plenty of generals you fuckstick.

>96038197
>namecalling
Wow, we have an internet tough guy here...

>>96038190
>"why dont we use our best advantage to directly, immediately and permenantly solve one of our worst problems"
its actually a good question, and one most werewolves have to ask themselves almost every day. The trick is mostly just in scale, picking a target and following through.

most werewolves are disconnected from human society and tech by their natures, but suppose a human associate passes on a leak that a pentex board member will be coming in to the regional office this weekend. well, great! you and your pack are combat focused and ready to go, but just in case you call in with your neighbours - one hates you because of some ancestral grudge and thinks you're laying a trap. the other empathises and wants to help, but their pack is mostly adolescents who arent physically or psychologically ready to storm a compound. that leaves you and your four dudes against the local and visiting security forces and multiple fomori, and best case scenario you have a boss fight at the end. worst case its a trap and the whole building gets demolished with you inside.

do you roll those dice? maybe. and if you do, do you take out the boardmember? also maybe. you MIGHT even all make it out alive. then you'll need a couple of weeks to recover, and a few months to years winning back spiritual favors, and maybe even longer if you lost or spent magical weapons or had informants die

meanwhile pentex appoints another regional manager to the board and their work keeps going under its own corporate and financial inertia.

plenty of packs DO take the shot, all the time. its just not enough. oh and most werewolves dont have stable jobs. if they werent such angry bums all the time they might have more gear

>>96038283
I understand. Thank you for explaining, I understand the issue now.
Werewolves are strong but not unbeatable, and they're rare.
I also remember that most of Pentex's workers don't know they work for Pentex, and are more apathetic and depressed than evil, so a "good" party won't just raid Pentex's office somewhere.

I'm also starting to understand how to portray Pentex in a game: they're essentially like the bad guys in a political thriller or Utopia, they're everywhere, know everything, and it's not a matter of ripping the local Pentex manager to shred but identifying him, and making sure you're out of range when the retaliation comes.
The werewolves might be able to kill the local manager after a hard boss, but then all the informants and everyone close to the werewolves will get assassinated, arrested or will disappear in the night, forced in a car by people in body armor.

I know very little of WoD deep lore, but if the werewolves are such shitters then how is the setting still going?

>>96038325
That's the thing: the setting's going to shit.

>>96038322
nah, no worries. i have to admit i havent played werewolf, only read most of the book, so i might be wrong about some of it. there is a three-part sample adventure in it that is actually a "kill the boardmember" scenario if you want to see how it would be intended to play out. pentex isnt quite THAT good, some corporate apathy and kafkaesque incompetence helps characterize them a lot as an organization (and their fomori arent always team players), but also as the book says - "its not just pentex". sometimes its loggers or poachers, or a new industrial estate or some random factory has a chemical spill. sometimes its sanctifying a new sanctuary, or some spirit going out of control. Or count fucking orlock showing up where he doesnt belong, or a mage needing some extra muscle, or a fey who wont leave until you play the sound of changing seasons for them. sometimes its a ghost mad about some shit that happened 200 years ago. sometimes its an idiot hunter showing up with a crucifix and garlic-buckshot because he thinks you're a gangrel. WOD is a busy busy world

>>96038378
No, I get you. I just, whenever I'm told the villain is some multinational business, I just imagine some hilarious incompetent Big Motors or something like that, where engineers will report issues and the director will go "I don't like what you're telling me so you're fired and that uneducated worker will do your work now".
I get it's not how Pentex works, but it's just how I imagine it. Kinda like I cannot help but imagine cavalry as extremely fragile.

Pentex is also funnily the most interesting one because I already knew they had their hands in a lot of different business, and I love the idea of werewolves slowly understanding that buying weapons from Nastrum and burgers from O'Tolley's while drinking King beer is just feeding Pendex MORE money.

>>96038325
People love to exaggerate just how shit the werewolves are. It tends to go like this:
A novice approaches Werewolf the Apocalypse thinking that werewolves are cool and loves the idea of a pack of werewolves just hulking out and wrecking a legion of mooks or taking on a truly monstrous kaiju or something.
A layman walks away from Werewolf the Apocalypse having learned of the mistakes that werewolves have made and all of the flaws in their society and proceeds to tell everyone about how shitty werewolves are.
The people who stick around long enough to become experts realise that for everything that werewolves have done wrong, they've also done some things right. They are still a necessary and important part of the World of Darkness and if it wasn't for them, the Apocalypse would have happened centuries ago.

The issue is that with every passing century, humanity becomes exponentially more powerful and so do the servants of the Wyrm that hide amongst humanity. Their systems of corrupting and killing Gaia become too large and elaborate for werewolves to eliminate using their traditional method of violence, not without inflicting massive amounts of collateral damage and ruining lots of innocent lives, which might just accelerate the Apocalypse instead of slowing it. So not only do werewolves have to fight the servants of the Wyrm, but they also have to fight more regressive werewolves, sometimes literally, to keep them making things worse with the "shoot first" approach to all problems. One theme of the game is about breaking out of the cycle of generational trauma and playing a fresh batch of werewolves who have to learn to be better than the elders who came before them.

>>96038406
Funny how it works like vampires do.
Novices will think vampires are cool, because strength, invisibility, mindwashing, and all that.
A layman walks away having realized that vampires are insanely weak and overblown.
An experty understands that vampires are situationally unstoppable, but are fucked over by the upper echelons' rigid and outdated thinking while mankind is progressing so insanely fast that pretty much anyone can kill a vampire lord.

>>96038325
>how is the setting still going?
well
>10kbc - angels rebel and become demons
>5000 bc- cain is cursed
>4000bc - atlantis is destroyed in the wizard v god proxy war, and reality itself is fundamentally altered
>3500 bc - vampires rule the earth from the city of enoch
>3250bc - humans upset the balance of creation driving the worm (or maybe weaver) insane, and calamity ensues. gaia makes woofs to "kill the problem"
3000 bc- global flood resets the progress of the werewolves' first (and only successful) anti-human genocide attempt
>100 ad- roman advance into ireland drives the werewolf clan there to madness- they fall and become black spiral dancers
>500 ad - the prince of my city is turned and tremere diablerizes saulot (probably voluntarily!), beginning the collapse of the salubri clan
>1000 ad - the gangrel and tsimice antideluvians are both flesh-masses underground. tremere's boyfriend dies around here too
>1500 - growing scientific inquiry continues to strengthen the weaver and the evil wizard technocracy. werewolf genocide campaigns against humans have failed about three times now, its well and truly hopeless.
>1800ad australia is colonized (25% of the first fleet are vampires somehow). all the native werewolves are genocided by other werewolves because management was out of the office that day and "you can never be too sure"
>19xx tremere wakes up and saulot's blood wears him like a meat suit. time and space break slightly and noone lkes to think about it. i dont know who won the fight.
>20xx someone wrote a pamphlet lureing people to the castle the tsimice antideluvian is under (they are currently a flesh tree). chaos ensues
>2020 - the entire world is being suffocated by the weaver's webbing. vampires are forced to accept thin bloods into their ranks to prevent societal collapse. airport security includes EMF readers and heartrate sensors. wolves can no longer hear the earth screaming

who's going to bail us out at this point? god?

>>96038423
There's a lot of this that is incorrect, but I'll focus on this one:
>werewolf genocide campaigns against humans have failed about three times now
There was only one war against humanity, known as the Impergium, that happened at some prehistorical point. It was less of a war of extermination more of a culling and quarantining of humanity, to keep them growing too large or influential. Despite this, werewolves were responsible for a great deal of cruelty during this period and that regret is one of the things that led to the end of the Impergium. The majority of modern werewolves who know of the Impergium think of it as a great mistake and one of the worst sins of their people, with only one tribe and a few regressive camps considering it a good thing.
So, three genocide campaigns against humanity is woefully incorrect, as is a lot of other information there.

>>96038146
/tg/ stands for traditional generals desu

>>96038446
No, it's traditional games.

>>96038394
>I don't like what you're telling me so you're fired and that uneducated worker will do your work now".
>I get it's not how Pentex works,
Pentex does some of that. Especially if it causes pollution, misery and want. It's just that they do other things that make them hard targets for murderfurballs.

>>96036276
Fuck your cancerous stagnant generals and fuck your autistic thread patrolling

>>96038453
Yeah, but Pentex isn't stupid. They know what they do, and it's what caused me problems to take them seriously, I kept imagining a cartoon villain like the bitch in Captain Planet.

>>96038456
Nogames mad.

>>96038444
checked
i know a huge ammount of it is factually wrong, but im trying to reconcile contradictory timelines into something vaguely coherent. i probably should put werewolves showing up somewhere more antideluvian now that i think about it. atlantis first, wolves fill the void, then the flood of enoch. That said, im not suggesting multiple impergiums, just that they probably made at least two smaller attempts afterwards

>>96038458
It's just accelerationism, which is something that plenty of actual billionaires living right now are aiming for. They seek to destabilise the world through the rapid intensification of resource extraction, the production of goods, the advancement of technology and societal change, in the hope that they will be the ones to rule over the new world built on the ruins of the old world as pharaohs.
There's a whole lot of rich people banking on societal collapse so that they'll be the ones on top when it all goes to shit. In that way, there's nothing particularly special about Pentex.

>>96038475
What a bunch of bozos lol.

>>96038462
All of the werewolf tribes at the time convened and devised the Concord for the primary purpose of preventing another Impergium from ever happening again. There was factually no attempt by the werewolves as a whole to war against humanity as a whole ever again after that point.

There are instances of some werewolf tribes helping their human kinfolk enact genocide on other humans, but absolutely nothing to indicate that the entire Garou Nation ever went to war against humanity at large ever again, especially since they made an oath to keep to the shadows and not directly influence humanity from then on.

>>96038488
Don't garous need humans to breed, anyway?

>>96038488
stop getting digits
yeah they never attempted another global one as a nation, but their nation collapsed and im betting at least a few individual tribes were willing to take another swing at it, right?

>>96036276
>>96038174
Shut the fuck up.

>>96038475
The silly thing about reading Werewolf for me is that irl companies and billionaires are usually more insane and evil than Pentex ever is. My only remaining hope is that their dreams of living in space succeed and it'll be that much easier to starve them out.

>>96038498
Not technically. They could survive by just fucking wolves. The thing is that there are significantly more humans than wolves around.

>>96038536
>They could survive by just fucking wolves
Huh. I missed that part.

>>96038498
It's implied that if wolves or humans go extinct then so too do the Garou, even though you have tribes on the opposite ends of extreme in the Red Talons and Bone Gnawers (it's implied even the Red Talons still end up getting humans mixed up in their bloodline through members of the Talons themselves or through lupus joining up from other tribes). I mean, you never hear of the were-dodo.

>>96038498
Yes, which is one of the reasons why the Impergium wasn't a full-on extermination of humanity but just the quarantining of mankind, isolating them in scattered villages across the world, culling their population when necessary, killing anyone who stepped out of line and using them as breeding stock to pump out more Garou. It's pretty grim.
>>96038501
Yes, the Red Talons tribe is in favour of a second Impergium, if not the outright extermination of mankind. There are some minor camps in other tribes that share this belief, but anyone who broke the Concord by slaughtering humans indiscriminately or breaking the Veil was always punished severely by the rest of the Garou Nation.
Even then, we've moved the goal posts from:
>werewolf genocide campaigns against humans have failed about three times now
to
>werewolves genocided humans once and never again but a few small groups of werewolves still want to genocide humans but can't because the other werewolves won't let them
It's a pretty big jump.
>>96038536
One controversial plot element of Werewolf is that in order for a tribe to remain stable, it needs to have a reasonable balance of human and wolf kinfolk.
The lack of human kinfolk is causing the Red Talons tribe to produce less werewolves with every generation, and the lack of wolf kinfolk is causing the Glass Walkers tribe to produce less werewolves with each generation.
This is one of the stupider and weirder parts of the setting, because it basically boils down to:
>Werewolves have got to do more bestiality to keep their population stable!

>>96038547
I always sucked at ARK because you have to kill dodos to level up, and I was always unable to do so. They're too cute.

>>96038553
>This is one of the stupider and weirder parts of the setting
Honestly some of the stuff in the old World of Darkness is pretty dumb.

>>96038553
The Red Talons have the right of it. We wouldn't need anymore werewolves if there weren't any more humans left to fuck the world up.

>>96038584
But what if some other apex species goes down the same path as humanity after that? Who will maintain the balance to stop that from happening?

>>96038599
Balance will be restored. Stop questioning dogma, ape.

>>96038553
fair enough then, my mistake

>>96038146
Pretending to be retarded is also shitposting

>>96038475
That's why they fear less births and are obsessed with reproduction since they have less people to rule over.

>>96038531
>pentex bad because it's not as evil as real world corporations
>>96038458
>pentex bad because it's too cartoonish evil for me to take seriously
Which is it?

>>96038325
>if the werewolves are such shitters then how is the setting still going?
Which part of "world of darkness" did you not understand?

>>96038161
>Not to mention vampires are often conservatively put at 1% - thats 100 vampires per woof.
Lolwut? The numbers I've seen for vampires are in the order of 1 in 100 000 (mostly concentrated in cities).

>>96038531
>My only remaining hope is that their dreams of living in space succeed and it'll be that much easier to starve them out.
Anon, if megabillionaires go to space, it'll only become that much harder for the average Joes to do anything against them. Think private islands, except in international waters and with their own private space forces, basically East India Company except you need space-tier weaponry to even touch them.
And of course they'll employ any and all means to prolong their life and safety, cloning, mind transfers/upload, digital personality, you name it, ethics are for plebs.

>>96038146
>>96038174
I wish you anons would use even 1% of this energy trying to kill the endless D&D threads. They have 4 generals and Still insist on making asinine individual threads that barely even bother trying to hide it's a D&D question.

>>96039201
>hallucinates a binary scenario
Victim complex.

>>96039214
>binary
As a shadowrun player I fucking agree with him. You D-tards need to fucking Go.
Your 5e goblin-people actively make the hobby more shit just be existing and you stink up this board with inane bullshit.

>>96039271
>doubles down on the retardation
Daring today, aren't we?

>>96039271
>You D-tards need to fucking Go.
As a warhammer player, I approve this message. We were here first and didn't agree with the mods letting the board devolve into "5e and pals".

>>96039214
>>96039281
>>96039214
>>96039281
>Narcissist's Prayer
It always comes down to this with you people. Face the fucking truth anon: You Are A Problem and everyone else hates you.

>>96039293
>agreeing with yourself
Talk about desperate.

One advantage of this being a separate thread is that the numerous Werewolf haters in the general haven't noticed this thread's existence.

>>96039326
>recieve criticism
>throw hissy fit
Speaking of patterns.

>>96039342
Yeah, because ignoring haters would require basic self-control.

>>96039271
>>96039293
>>96039326
You autists don't even realize he's a troll do you?

>>96039142
Plus anyone smart is going to work for them. No one who has a choice plays for the losing team.

>>96039358
Now this is advanced stupidity.

>>96038933
More than that, Money only has value is there are people to buy from and earn wages. The population collapse of the black plague is what created the middle class, because the reduction in workers increased their worth while devaluing the money and holdings of the rich.
On top of that, death-robots are still shit and easily bypassed by a consumer drone with a bomb. They need to pay guards for any kind of enforcement and those guards can still get sick of their shit.
Without people at the bottom, their entire pyramid scheme fucking Collapses under them and they get to look down the barrel of a gun. Population decline is their biggest nightmare.

>>96036276
Thanks, I'll keep this bumped to spite you.

>>96039646
>i'll shit my diaper
Might as well announce that water is wet.

>>96039401
>Without people at the bottom, their entire pyramid scheme fucking Collapses under them
That said, this scenario has been one repeated in every large society you care to name.
Egypt, Grecian, Rome, China, Feudal Europe, Aztecs, each has fallen to the bottom classes rising up. Each also did it's best to pacify the masses when times got hard, via various means.

>>96035977 (OP)
there's very few werewolves and they're not so much stronger than a dude with a gun to solve for that.
especially since werewolves also aren't very smart.
also even if you do nail Pentex HQ, there's a million subsidiaries and branch offices that'll just keep doing their thing.
also not accounted for: werewolves are so angry they'll even kick the shit out of other werewolves at the drop of a hat, even despite the fact there's already so few werewolves that Pentex's hired guns are a legitimate existential threat.

>>96038450
Games?

>>96042831
>werewolves also aren't very smart
Lorewise, they're smarter than humans because of their spirit eugenics.

>>96035977 (OP)

>>96039657
bump ;^)

>>96043943
>Lorewise, they're smarter than humans

>>96045830
Have you ever seen a human commute with spirits?
Checkmate. Now sit, kiddo.

So is Pentex like Veridian Dynamics?

>>96045839
Anon, being able to see spirits doesn't make you intelligent. I'd say it's the opposite, given how the garou have a habit of shooting themselves in the foot, destroying their own allies, and are currently suffering population collapse despite having multiple tools to easily save themselves.
The garou are retarded, more so than even the average normie.

>>96038174
Tg has been rendered reddit-tier slop ever since the poltards chased off the grognards. Just consume and stop worrying

>>96045970
Basically. A generic evil corporation trying to make loads of money and accelerate environmental and/or societal collapse so that they'll be the ones to rule over the ashes, as their dark god has supposedly promised them.
On the tamer side of things, they invest heavily in high pollution industries and addictive, exploitative products and marketing practices.
On the wackier side of things, they summon demonic spirits from the spirit world to grind up them up and incorporate their minced-up flesh into their burgers to mildly increase the likelihood that the kids who eat them shoot up their schools.
Precisely how wacky Pentex is depends on how you want to play them in your group.

>>96046493
You're not as smart as you think, senpai.

>>96035977 (OP)
Pentex is more powerful, better informed, and better prepared in the aggregate.

>>96046668
Anon, I know I'm retarded. Thing is, I don't need to know how fly a plane to know a professional pilot fucked up when he crashes one.
Like understands like, and let me tell you, the garou are more retarded than I am. That's an achievement honestly.

>>96046856
You've made your point, senpai, have a nice day now.

>>96046493
But can YOU talk to spirit, clever boy?
No? Thought so.

>>96038423

Mummies or Prometheans maybe?

>>96038423
>they are currently a flesh tree
That's fucked up.

>>96046493
All of those complaints are about prehistory. Gonna cry about humans pushing Neanderthal to extinction too?

>>96039201
>that barely even bother trying to hide it's a D&D question.
The truth behind those threads is that they aren't even D&D questions, they're just substancless posts trying to churn the catalog.

>>96048563
>All of those complaints are about prehistory.
>>96046493
>and are currently suffering population collapse despite having multiple tools to easily save themselves
Did you only read the first sentence and stop there?

Is this the guy who insists that because some spirits are able to procreate with some Garou, that the entire Garou Nation could effortlessly set up spirit rape camps in the Umbra and pump out a fresh generation of werewolves in a blink of an eye?

>>96048903
>spirit rape camps
I'm suddenly very onboard with that anons ideas.

>>96038995
Not the anon, but personally my issue is that Pentex does a lot of the really obvious and destructive evil for sake of doing evil and spreading Banes as opposed to the modern corporations which care primarily about profits and influence. Pentex is a strange flavoure of evil since it's essentially a cult using a network of megacorps instead of a magically corrupt megacorp. This means that they ironically skip a lot of the real life megacorp evil in favour of more fantastic and unbussiness. A good example of it would be their video games meant to corrupt kids into hating the wildlife and nature. Is it evil? Yes. Does it look silly compared to the real life scummy developers turning their games into addiction engines and gambling machines meant to get the kids hooked up so they can siphon cash from their parents for lootboxes? Yes, it does look silly compared to that.

>>96049444
>Pentex does a lot of the really obvious and destructive evil for sake of doing evil and spreading Banes as opposed to the modern corporations which care primarily about profits and influence.
It does it for both. It's two birds with one stone, they can bring about the Apocalypse and becoming filthy rich at the same time.
>Does it look silly compared to the real life scummy developers turning their games into addiction engines and gambling machines meant to get the kids hooked up so they can siphon cash from their parents for lootboxes?
Werewolf the Apocalypse was written ages before the skinner box tactic was adopted by video game companies. This is absolutely something that a Pentex subsidiary written in 2025 would do, on top of being stuffed full of propaganda.

>>96049444
spreading banes is their profit and influence though

>>96049503
>>96049580
Still, my point is that by giving their evil an explicit higher purpose you are taking away quite a bit from what makes the real life megacorps such as shitshows.

>>96049633
the pursuit of money beyond all reason is already abstract enough that i don't see a difference

>>96049633
I think you underestimate the evil of the modern billionaire. There's plenty of rich fuckers who don't just want to stop at the banality of making more money for money's stake, they want to live forever, they want to scar history with their name, they want to be the god-kings who reign over it all when the collapse comes about. Worshipping a death god to help make that last one a reality isn't much of an immersion breaker for me.

>>96048712
>despite having multiple tools to easily save themselves
They don't. What, they can create Metis? Those are sterile. They have rites to make more kinfolk? You think the spirits are going to keep doing it if you make an assembly line out of it?

>>96049958
>You think the spirits are going to keep doing it if you make an assembly line out of it?
*the assembly line spirits stop and look at you in confusion*

>>96035977 (OP)
What even is Pentex? I watched a youtube video about werewolves, and the way the comments got so alarmed when Nastrum was namedropped and linked to Pentex was really eerie.

>>96050249
Pentex is a corporation in the World of Darkness setting is worth hundreds of billions of dollars and secretly run by a cabal that serves the animistic spirit that embodies death and destruction. Their goal is to enrich themselves while bringing about the apocalypse, in the hope that their master will allow them to rule over the world that rises from the ashes of this one.
Pentex has its fingers in every pie, from the military industrial complex, to petrochemicals, to pharmaceuticals, to groceries and entertainment. There's probably not a single city in the USA where a subsidiary of Pentex does not operate, with the dual goals of making money and damaging the world and/or society.
Meanwhile, werewolves serve the animistic spirit of the planet itself and seek to prevent this potential apocalypse. However, there's only so much they can do against the borderline unlimited wealth and resources of Pentex, even with their supernatural abilities. It doesn't help that the vast majority of people who work for Pentex are innocent. By sabotaging a factory owned by a Pentex subsidiary, a pack of werewolves is putting hundreds of ordinary people out of work and putting a target on their back for the werewolf extermination squads that work for Pentex. The worst part is that within a week, an identical factory will probably have started up somewhere else in the country.

Pentex can be terrifyingly banal and unfathomably powerful, or it can be absurdly evil and ridiculously cartoony, depending on how you want to look at it.

>>96050452
Oh shit. That sounds awful. Like, Warhammer 40k's level of grim. Is it even possible to win, or are the werewolves fucked?

>>96050249
Pentex is... imagine Samsung in South Korea. Or imagine these coal mining towns in the Appalaches, where you're pretty much a slave but in name: everything you consoom is produced by the company, and just by existing, you owe them money.
Now, imagine this, but over the entire world. Pentex doesn't exists openly, but it has companies and subsidiaries everywhere. Every "bad" business or corporation belongs to Pentex.
That supermarket that sells really affordable premade snacks that taste bland, make you feel ill, but are so cheap and don't requite you to cook for when you're stuck at work? That's Pentex.
That golfing club that has insane costs upon costs and conditions for membership but that you're required to be a member of for your reputation? Pentex.
That building business that seem to only make noise and force you to take another route to get to work? Pentex.
That video game that your kid/cousin is playing where you can buy a DLC to rape your opponent after stabbing him to death? Pentex!
That dungeon and dragon game that's so addictive that it pushes kids to suicide when their character dies? Pentex.
That beer that taste like soda but is like 40°, so that youngs get drunk and do crimes that ruin their lives? Pentex.
That weird envelop in your mailbox containing photos of your entire extended family along with empty cartridges after you tried to contact that journalist? Pentex.
These really trigger-happy security guards in full body armor that are unable to communicate without shouting incoherently, and are always twitchy? Pentex.
All the cats in the neighbourhood disappearing? Pentex.
My girlfriend dumping me after pegging me so hard I couldn't sit for two days? Pentex.

>>96050249
And I forgot, just as >>96050452 said, Pentex also use every kind of propaganda to convince people that werewolves are extremely scary and monsters, in order to discourage cooperation with them. A normal person in world of darkness will believe that a werewolf is a irredeemable piece of shit. Kinda like... a goblin, a zombie or a nazi. Basically video games' most popular enemies.

>>96050249
Simple answer: Look up a pair of companies called blackrock+blackstone and look up which companies they own from 10% to 25% of the stock.
Blackrock/blackstone are our universe's pentex.

>>96051276
At this point, a lot of werewolves have accepted that the apocalypse is inevitable and believe that their only chance lies in defeating the death god that Pentex serves, when they summon him into the physical world. Despite this, they still fight against Pentex whenever possible to try and limit humanity and the planet's suffering, but they just don't have the tools necessary.
Plus, as lots of posters love to point out, werewolves tend to be very flawed. Their legends teach that they were made by the spirit of the planet to enforce balance and serve as its soldiers, so they tend to see every problem as a nail for them to hammer into submission. The worst werewolves try to solve everything with death and destruction, without realising that all of the damage they're doing and people that they're butchering just helps the death god and not the world spirit they're trying to save.
So, playing a game of Werewolf the Apocalypse is usually a balance between fighting against the death god's endless minions (Pentex included) and trying to convince other werewolves to be better people and find smarter solutions to the problems that they face. Some people enjoy this struggle to find a better way to save the world and fight against the regressive elements of society, but some people (such as /wodg/) believe that all werewolves are retarded and that the players are just retard wranglers. It's not for everyone.

>>96053199
I see. I did wonder how the setting would be so grim as to fit World of Darkness if you're so strong that you can give even vampires pause.

>>96053467
>you can give even vampires pause.
Vampires are not, nor ever were, the mightiest supernatural beings in the setting, just the most popular game line.
The actual heavy hitters that vampires have that can toe off against other serious players is around 20 total, and most of those are either incapacitated or so mired in their 'game' as to be relatively nonthreatening.

>>96053537
>Vampires are not, nor ever were, the mightiest supernatural beings
Are we still talking about Vampire the Masquerade? For the few I remember of the book, vampires are pretty much unstoppable against humans. If you try to fight a vampire in a 1vs1, you'll get taken down pretty much instantly, and only another supernatural being or a very careful hunter can oppose a vampire, and with how obsessive vampires are, probabilities are that any wannabe hunter will have an accident the moment they're caught snopping as usual.

>>96038161
>>96038283
>>96038378
Wise woof sage, I've been kicking around an idea for a campaign set in a future where werewolves have, somehow, won. In all ways they wanted. The Wyrm free but sane, the Weaver put back into it's natural role, Pentex functionally defeated, cairns restored and purified, even the tribes that wanted humanity's population culled have gotten most of what they wanted, and only a single city remains, where the Union bends all of it's remaining power to keep things the way there were, at least within the walls. I'd like to hear what you think.

>>96053552
I think he's talking about the supernatural beings of the World of Darkness. When compared to werewolves and mages, vampires are mechanically rather insignificant and are typically get smacked around according to the lore as well. This only stops when dealing with vampire elders, methuselahs and antediluvians.

>>96053638
Wait, mages too? I thought mages were only situationally strong, like only in their lair with all their wands and what else.
But I know nothing about amges, except that everything wrong in the world is their fault because they feel the need to shove their thumb up monsters' asses.

>>96053650
Mage is another rather controversial game, as it makes almost every other game in the World of Darkness feel small in comparison.
The premise of Mage the Ascension is that reality is built on human consensus, that all of existence is designed by the perceptions and beliefs of humanity. However, it doesn't have to be this way, for every human possesses an avatar that allows them to warp reality according to their personal desires, instead of just being a part of the consensus. Mages are people who have awakened their avatars and can warp reality, though they are punished by the consensus if they do things that defy the beliefs of humanity, in the presence of humanity.
>But how do werewolves and vampires exist then if the majority of humanity doesn't consider them real?
Somehow, they exist outside of the consensus and are unaffected by consensus. Mage is very bad at crossing over with the other games of the World of Darkness.
The point is that mages are reality warpers, with the most potent ones being capable of all sorts of crazy shit.

>>96053854
Aren't all of them controversial anyway, I remember the Changeling one getting criticized on 1d4chan for being "otherkin" fantasy. Whatever that means.
And then there's the Nightmare where you're a monster that feeds off suffering but the Heroes are objectively better.

But I do like the idea that reality is what it is because we imagine it that way. It feels really trippy, like a mix of some really weird Fate manga, and Matrix.
Shame it doesn't mix well with the rest, I'd love to see human reality trying to cope with the planet being alive.

>>96053914
It's established that Type-Moon subtly plagiarises Mage the Ascension.

>>96035977 (OP)
In addition to what others said, Pentex had their own shapechangers. Both traitor woofs and artificially made wereapes, wererhinos and werecockroaches

>>96054602
>Pentex had their own shapechangers
wat

>>96054609
It's called Mockery Breeds. They're all insane or hard to control to various degrees, but they exist

>>96035977 (OP)
Werewolves are 1. fighty and 2. quarrelsome. You gather Werewolves eager to attack Pentex, drunk Fianna says to Shadow Lord "you know you mutt your black fur first appeared in dogs and then was transferred to wolves" and instead of attack on Pentex you get a Second War of Rage.

>>96054624
I see. I imagined some Captain Planet villain, but yeah, I got it completely wrong.
They ARE dangerous.

>>96054626
Divided we fall, united we stand.

>>96054059
How the fuck is he still getting away with it anyway? Every time he makes an update or retcons, he steals even more shit from WoD or Chronicles.

>>96054609
One of the subsidiaries of Pentex is Magadon, a big pharma corporation. They produce all sorts of pills and medical treatments that solve one problem only to cause another further down the line, with lots of bribes to prevent adequate testing and studying of their products.
On top of these money-making and body-wrecking products, they have a lot of secret divisions devoted to devising methods of combating werewolves. Drugs that make normal people immune to the delirium that werewolves cause, drugs that make normal people seem spiritually tainted to encourage werewolves to kill innocent people, medical procedures that infuse the bodies of their "security personnel" with evil spirits and more.
One of the divisions does what >>96054624 and focuses on creating artificial types of shapeshifters. They've made five so far, with two successes, two failures and one mixed bag. They boil down to:
>Cannibalistic wolves that can hulk out like werewolves can, used as attack dogs and for sniffing out werewolves.
>Runaway frog shapeshifters that wallow in highly polluted waterways, think deep ones from the Cthulhu mythos.
>Rhino shapeshifters dedicated to slaughtering native rhino populations and African shapeshifters and encouraging rhino poaching in Africa.
>Insane cockroach shapeshifters that are terrified of everything and psychically project their terror onto everyone around them.
>Ape shapeshifters dedicated to fighting urban werewolves who are so cunning and ruthless that some have ended up in Pentex upper management.

>>96054822
...so, any game where we can play as Pentex? They sound more interesting than the werewolves.

>>96054901
There have been books published that provide rules for making and playing Pentex characters, from mortal operatives to mutants who have been infused with evil spirits to the mockery breeds that have been mentioned.

But I'd argue that Pentex only seems cooler because the entire thread has been dedicated to answering questions about Pentex, with werewolves only being mentioned in the context of Pentex.

>>96054942
I meant more like a strategy/city-building video game about Pentex.

Can a normal human get a werewolf GF?

>>96055005
That's how kinfolk is made

>>96055005
Yes, but his GF would be ruining her reputation with her tribe by doing so. Werewolves have an obligation to make more werewolves, and a normal human's inferior non-kinfolk genes aren't capable of doing that.

>>96055103
But I thought werewolves fucking other werewolves made retarded kids?

>>96055005
It's possible but there's a few obstacles.
>Werewolves are highly encouraged to breed exclusively with kinfolk, humans and wolves with werewolf heritage. This maximises the likelihood of any offspring being a werewolf, typically a one-in-ten chance. If a werewolf breeds with a non-kinfolk human, the chance of the offspring being a werewolf is more like one-in-a-hundred. For this reason, any werewolf who wastes time fucking around with non-kinfolk gets stigmatised, as they are knowingly reducing their likelihood of producing werewolf offspring who will fight the Apocalypse in Gaia's name.
>Werewolves harbour rage. Even if they don't know that someone is a werewolf, a normal human can still feel this rage on an instinctual level, a sense that a person is dangerous and that they should stay away from them. Even if a human can overcome this aura of scariness, werewolves are prone to explosive fits of rage and violence, during which they can ruin and/or the lives of anyone who isn't a werewolf. Lots of werewolves end up accidentally mauling their families or destroying family homes during these outbursts.
In short, it can happen, but the werewolf GF risks being stigmatised and the human has to live with a constant sense of fear and unease, as well as the risk of being butchered whenever the werewolf GF throws a tantrum.

>>96055130
>as well as the risk of being butchered whenever the werewolf GF throws a tantrum

>>96055115
I love explaining werewolf breeding. So it is goes something like this:
>A werewolf and a non-kinfolk breed. The child has a 99% chance of being kinfolk and a 1% chance of being a werewolf.
>A werewolf and a kinfolk breed. The child has a 90% chance of being kinfolk and a 10% chance of being a werewolf.
>A werewolf and a werewolf breed. The child has a 100% chance of being a werewolf but the child will be Metis - sterile, deformed or insane, and stigmatised.
>A kinfolk and a kinfolk breed. The child has a 99% chance of being kinfolk and a 1% chance of being a werewolf.
>A kinfolk and a non-kinfolk breed. The child has a 50% chance of being kinfolk and a 50% chance of being non-kinfolk. The chance of being non-kinfolk rises with every generation of this.
>A non-kinfolk and a non-kinfolk breed. The child has a 100% chance of being non-kinfolk, in case that wasn't obvious.
>Additionally, the chance of a werewolf being born diminishes if the bloodline does not have enough human blood and wolf blood in it. A bloodline that breeds exclusively with humans or exclusively with wolves will eventually be incapable of producing werewolves after enough generations of this exclusive breeding.
This is the bit of the setting that weirds a lot of people out and gets people hooked on werewolf eugenics theories.

>>96055253
...oh, shit. So yeah, werewolves are a dying breed, on top of fighting fucking Pentex.
Also, funny that a werewolf retarded kid is named a métis, it means just a halfbreed in French.

>>96055130
>werewolves need kinfolks to reproduce
>but breeding kinfolks is considered disgraceful
This is pretty stupid. Are werewolves retarded?

>>96054901
Pentex pushes woke and DIE for the exact reasons Alex Jones would put forwards

>>96055444
>DIE
You mean DEI?

>>96055412
You'd think they'd want to breed with as many non kinfolk as possible to up the chances of more werewolves.

>>96055460
Exactly. I mean, if they breed a lot of kinfolks, odds are that they'll end up with fellow kinfolks and non-kinfolks, but yeah.
Imagine the entire family mocking Uncle Ted for sleeping with a non-kinfolks, and after 20 years, they all come with their tail between their legs asking if they can marry some of his kinfolks kids.

>>96055451
it's very clearly DIE
Diversity, Inclusion and Equity

>>96055130
>>96055499
>ywn have a werewolf GF who could kill you instantly at any moment and is slightly ashamed to be with you but also wants a minimum of 7 kids for maximum breeding potential.
Why even live?

>>96055561
I mean, my fetish is getting pegged, so not a big loss for me. A GF that wants to have kids isn't fit for me.

>>96055348
Only two tribes suffer from the "they don't fuck enough humans" and "they don't fuck enough dogs" problem, most of the werewolf tribes have a good enough balance that they're not suffering from the issue.
But even then, the human population is growing faster than ever, the kinfolk populations aren't growing fast enough to keep up and the risk of kinfolk escaping and breeding outside of the kinfolk pool is higher than ever.
So while werewolves aren't dying out just yet, the proportions have been skewing more and more in the favour of humanity with every generation.
>>96055412
But they produce kinfolk anyway by fucking kinfolk, with a higher chance of producing a werewolf. Meanwhile, producing kinfolk by fucking non-kinfolk has a lower chance of producing a werewolf.
So if a werewolf is monogamous, they're knowingly damaging the next generation's werewolf population by breeding with non-kinfolk over kinfolk, which means less soldiers fighting for Gaia to stop the Apocalypse, hence the stigma.
>>96055460
>>96055499
Another issue is that werewolves need to keep a close eye on their kinfolk, to prevent instances where a pair of kinfolk breed without their knowledge and produce a child that turns out to be a werewolf. The werewolf child goes on to transform, cause havoc and potentially get found by Pentex, the Black Spiral Dancers or something worse, bolstering the ranks of the enemy.
Werewolves are only able to keep track of so many kinfolk at once and every loose kinfolk that they lose track of is a potential liability, that can produce these rogue werewolves. Hell, they can be caught and used as breeding stock by the Black Spiral Dancers. So just pumping and dumping normies to mass-produce kinfolk has a good chance of backfiring spectacularly.

>>96055253
Don't forget that there's actually a mechanic that encourages incest to top this off.
>Werewolves and kin has a stat called "Purebreed", which measures how closely related a person is too the heroes of that tribe.
>Werewolves with high purebreed are more respected and loved than werewolves of lower purebreed. Kinfolk with higher purebreed have a higher chance of producing garou
>The purebreed of a child is the average of their parents, so is a kinfolk with high purebreed has a kids with a person of low/no purebreed, the kid will have low purebreed.
The dying out of most of the garou race means there's only a handful of purebred bloodlines and purebreed can't translate across tribes. To keep a high purebreed and a high chance of making garou, marrying your first cousin is a must.

>>96053622
First question; how'd they achive that?
Second question; what would the campaign be exactly? Do the players just play as warden, making sure things never go back to the way they were before?

Also talking about the future I remembered that comic that showed the woofs prophecy of the future and the apocalyse, anyone tried running that?

>>96055610
>they don't fuck enough dogs
Beg your pardon?

>>96056140
>First question; how'd they achive that?
NTA, but this is a scenario in WtA: Apocalypse in the time of judgement series.
The ananasi free the balance wyrm from the weaver's net and it destroys the hydra wyrm as well as the entirety of all weaver constructs in the penumbra, gauntlet, and material world(as well as all modern technology).
Technically doesn't kill any humans, so the knowledge of how to remake the modern world is still there, but good luck sustaining billions of humans while trying to re-invent modern tech.

>>96056394
Look up coywolves. The garou and nuwisha are getting desperate.

>>96056427
>coywolves have x4 the population of full wolves
Holy shit these guys were successful.
Bone knawers fucking WIN.

>>96056394
Glass Walkers, the tribe that is the most human-centric and breeds with wolves the least, has a worsening kinfolk-to-werewolves ratio due to the fact that they almost exclusively breed with humans and not enough of them breed with wolves. They need more wolf blood in the tribe in order to increase the rate at which werewolves are born back to acceptable levels. Werewolves are supposed to be human and wolf at the same time, but they lean far too heavily towards their human aspect and are being punished for it by Gaia.

Hence, Glass Walkers need to fuck more wolves.

>>96056604
>werewolves struggle to keep their numbers constant, let alone grow
>their enemies are now insanely strong
>Gaia still punish them for trying to infiltrate human society, when humans are like 90% of the werewolves' enemies by now
This isn't World of Darkness, this is World of Stupidity.

>>96056604
>The entirety of werewolf genetic heal depends on the fact that, at some point, homids are going to half to fuck dogs.
God I hate brucato

>>96056697
It also works the other way around, with the Red Talons who refuse to accept anyone who isn't wolf-born struggling with the lack of human blood in their tribe, meaning that there's plenty of she-wolves out there who need to fuck more human men. Werewolves were made to serve as guardians of the balance, so it makes sense when that they fail to maintain that balance.

But yes, all of the breeding shit is one of the weirder aspects of Werewolf the Apocalypse, don't blame anyone who takes one look at this stuff and never wants to touch the game ever again.

>>96056503
To paraphrase old wisdom - if you can't beat them, fuck them.

>>96056802
I mean, it's just a weird way to show that the werewolves are declining. It's an odd reason, but I'd take TMI about werewolves mating over Tolkien's vague "elves/dwarves are declining and fading".

>>96056697
Well, gaia also isn't in the best state to make decisions right now thanks to the woofy boys fucking her over.
The Reason: The Mokole, the big fuck-off were-dragons, are the thoughts and memories of gaia made manifest in the real world. The garou genocided the vast majority of them in the war of rage, war of rage 2, war of shame, and war of tears. Gaia is quite literally halfway brain-dead and struggling to do Anything.

>>96038536
Well, sort of. If humans died they would lose the capacity to change into Homid and Glabro, much like how the Mokole lost Drachid after the Reptile Kings died. It was only when humans came about and Mokole used a Gift to gain a human form that they were able to turn into another tool-user shape, i.e. Homid.

Losing the other side, however, causes the breed to cease to exist unless it can jump ship to a similar enough animal, again, much like how the Mokole managed to go through the ages.

>>96056914
>The Mokole
The Mokele-Mbembe???? They're in the werewolf story????

>>96055412
>Are werewolves retarded?
Yes. That's part of the problem for the planet

>>96055610
>Meanwhile, producing kinfolk by fucking non-kinfolk has a lower chance of producing a werewolf.
But it also reduces the amount of future non-kinfolk. Which worked well enough for the rats

>>96056994
>Mokele-Mbembe
Yes and No. Mokole are a fera breed of were-lizards that have a build-your-own-dragon crinos form. The myth you mention is one thing they pulled inspiration from.
The were-dragon's entire thing is menesis, the ability to preserve the memories of others through their family lines and chanelling the thoughts of gaia, which is really fucking important when the age of legends had all the most powerful gifts and it's about to be the apocalypse. A shame the garou killed most of them and the rest are too pissed-off to ever work with the garou again.

>>96057081
>A shame the garou killed most of them and the rest are too pissed-off to ever work with the garou again.
Warhammer 40000 is still the absolute worst setting I can think of, but honestly, World of Darkness has that "five seconds before the apocalypse" vibe to it. And it's too late to do anything about it.
I'm glad I didn't get into World of Darkness as a teen, given how prone to anxiety I was then, I'd have got in a really depression if I read that.

>>96056994
He's racing ahead and talking shit, as the Mokolé don't directly serve as Gaia's memories, they can just access their genetic memory and recall any event that their ancestors experienced, making them ideal historians. Yes, the world would suffer if they were all wiped out, but he exaggerates their importance. Also, three of the four wars he cites didn't involve the Mokolé at all, and three of the four wars he cites were started by the bad guys manipulating the werewolves.

>>96057146
Woofs spend their entire lives in the state of being pissed off and mad about it. They don't need much manipulation to start a war

>>96057108
This is why the WoD threads default to "the Garou are fucking retarded". Their past ancestors are retarded, their current leaders are retarded, the elders of every caern are retarded, and even if you personally aren't retarded, it's an uphill battle to have any kind of sense taken seriously.
The current king of the garou nation, who's hailed as a reformist and genius beyond any seen in centuries, is intelligence 2(the human average in WoD).

>>96057146
>Mokolé don't directly serve as Gaia's memories
Breedbook: Mokole directly contradicts this and comes out to say that the elders sense gaia is effectively brain-dead with so many of them slaughtered.

The retardposter has arrived. Good thread, everyone, see you next time.

>>96057294
>the retardposter
damn, did he post you?

>>96057234
I mean, Vampires seem similar, there are lot of notes about how vampires can't adapt to modern life.

>>96057544
Unfortunately, the vampires get a lot of author favoritism and chances to show off characters being cool or smart. Some clans definitely get the retard hammer, like the tremere, but there are also plenty of stand-outs that ended up becoming fan favorites even outside the splat.
At least until V5 anyway.

>>96057108
>And it's too late to do anything about it

Eighth Sign of the Phoenix. I didn't hear no bell.

>>96057598
You're right. I mean, I only really know the vampires and hunters blurb, with some of the later Changelings (I love the Lost), but the Vampires really got most of the attention.

>>96056409
So wait what exactly happens? I get the spiritual side of it but what the hell does the actual material plane look like? Does our system crash and we need to do some real hasty patch-ups or else all of civilization collapses?

>>96057953
Up to the ST, but How the timescale on this works is unknown, it could be a meteor hits earth and kills 99% of everything and nature slowly reclaims the land while humanity is busy surviving, or it means you're sitting at you computer one moment and the next your house is gone and you're now holding a rock instead of a computer.
The general effect is the same though: technology doesn't just stop working. It's gone, destroyed, powdered. All human cities are wiped from the earth nuclear-blast style. In the same motion, nature rapidly takes up the vacuum.

>>96056052
>Gaia has entrusted her protection to a bunch of dog-mounting cousinfuckers
we're reaching levels of magical realm that shouldn't even be possible

>>96036276
no u.

>>96058136
Until seeing this thread I didn't realize why women have such strong preference for WoD

>>96058136
Welcome to the world of phil brucato. One of the three big lolcow authors infamous in the WoD community.

>>96058287
>phil brucato
He justin achili and travis williams are the unholy trinity responsible for crashing WoD from being popular enough it almost dethroned D&D to a burned and broken company bought out by paradox.

>>96035977 (OP)
>Werewolves are not a united front
Werewolves are divided into many different tribes spread out around the world with differing philosophies that don't agree with one another on much. Even within tribes or within a single werewolf pack they often fight with each other. Garou being angry fuckers who fight about everything has always been their downfall
>Werewolves are on the defensive
In WoD the Wyrm is winning, Garou are using their limited resources to try to protect their caerns and survive, they're not prepared for a frontal assault
>Pentex is full of civilians
Most of the people who work at Pentex are just regular humans who don't know anything about the supernatural. If werewolves attacked Pentex head on they would end up slaughtering tons of civilians in the process, which only the most extreme among them would be okay with. This type of massacre would probably also strengthen all types of evil wyrm magic within Pentex.
>Pentex is well defended
Pentex has tons of security, both natural and supernatural, and much of it is geared towards fighting werewolves. The ranks of pentex include: Black Spiral Dancers, vampires, Nephandi, various fomori, mockery breeds, bane spirits, hypertech weapons, and lots of silver bullets. Good luck fighting that.

>>96058166
i've always wondered where to meet a woman to wife up, guess i'll start learning WoD. maybe i'll get her to dress up like that big titty white bitch from that cannibal VN game that was making the rounds awhile ago, so she knows I'm down with incest.

>>96058287
>>96058320
like, i get they have to come up with a novel method of producing new werewolves in order to trademark it as part of their IP but holy fucking Christ, I can't wrap my head around going full tilt turbo-Cletus about it. knocking up spirits isn't half as fucking bizarre.

>>96058320
What did the two others did?

>>96058727
Achili is the root of modern WoD's obsession with street-level-only gameplay and "personal horror". That meme that goes something like: "No you can't play a competent and important character! You Must play a shitpyre starbucks employee!", is about him
Travis Williams is the one that demanded WW put special snowflake minorities into everything for "representation", despite not knowing anything about said minorities and turning them into one-note stereotypes. He's also a fucking idiot that can't manage anything for shit and loses his mind over the smallest things. He managed to make WW go bankrupt on the planned werewolf videogame of the early 2000's.

>>96058727
They're basically living avatars of the 3 ugly heads of modern libtard culture
>Brucato
Uncontrolled degeneracy worn as a badge of pride
>Achili
Purposefully tearing down any semblance of competence and heroism
>Williams
Holding up identity as the one virtue to hide you incompetence.

>>96058701
Don't forget the game was written in the nineties, when being cynical was in vogue. All of the factions in WoD are shit, it's just that their enemies are even worse.
Also, woofs often are hicks. They're either some tribesmen, hillbillies, city trash (Glass Walkers) or actual fucking wolves.

>>96058701
>like, i get they have to come up with a novel method of producing new werewolves in order to trademark it as part of their IP but holy fucking Christ, I can't wrap my head around going full tilt turbo-Cletus about it. knocking up spirits isn't half as fucking bizarre.
You can easily play Werewolf for ages without the breeding shit ever coming up, it's just one of the main aspects of Werewolf that people like to talk about because of how weird it is. Online WtA discourse always boils down to:
>haha look at all of this weird eugenics shit
>haha look at how retarded these werewolves are
>haha look at this dumb captain planet hippy shit

>>96058876
>Achili is the root of modern WoD's obsession with street-level-only gameplay and "personal horror". That meme that goes something like: "No you can't play a competent and important character! You Must play a shitpyre starbucks employee!", is about him
I mean, the emphasis on personal roleplay is what drew me to World of Darkness, the idea that it's more about your character than stopping Vecna/Orcus/Slaanesh/Emet Selch from destroying the world.

>>96059141
There's such a thing as going too far in the other direction. Somewhere between the extremes of "edgy gothic superhero out to save the world and look cool while doing it" and "wretched junkie doomed to get stomped by a hunter after struggling and failing to survive," there's a balance that can be found.

>>96059141
Anon, that would be fine if they weren'y hacking off every other part of the setting because they hate the idea of any player having fun with them.
Imagine if warhammer said "space marines are popular, so we will Only have space marines in it", then deleted every other faction and retconned all their lore so the setting only had space marines. Even space marine players would be pissed.

>>96059310
>>96059318
Ha, I see. Yeah, it does sound annoying when said like that. I mean, for a long game, you want to start by getting your character's affairs in order, then trying to carve yourself a spot in the world, but if you're stuck at being constantly the underdog, it can get frustrating.

>>96058876
>>96058895
It seems it's not really Achilli himself and more of his vision of the line. He also was a designer or a writer on multiple Trinity and Aberrant books, I'm both of which the PCs are supposed to have plenty of competence and importance. Heroism maybe not so much but that's a WW trademark.
Also apparently he was one of the designers of Exalted but fell off the project after the original rulebook. And that's a game where you literally play the most important people in the world.

>>96059349
Not to mention the game had multi-layered plots. Talk wraith for example. On the surface it's the most ground-level game by far, being about the character's personal struggles to let go of their past and move on.
However, it's also a game about being part of the only thing keeping the world from ending because wraiths are the only thing between oblivion and the skinlands, with godlike ghosts at the top of wraith society capable of shaking the world.
On top of that it's also a game about exploring the unkown, because the vast majority of the shadowlands, tempest, and layrinth are completely unexplored save the tiny dark kingdoms that float like bubbles in an endless ocean. There are literally angels, demons, genies, and wilder shit roaming distant lands, just waiting for you to find them.
Every wod game is like this. Personal stories are one option sure, but so were fantasy adventures, epic power struggles, global political battles, etc. Reducing it to Just personal horror is a fucking tragedy enacted by hack writers too far up their own asses to see their failures.

>>96059383
WoD, and vampire in particular, were achili's personal darlings. he's a competent writer, but he's an egotistical asshole that'd fit right in with the order of hermes.

>>96059470
I literally know nothing about Wraith, so I'm missing some bits of your explanation, but I get the general idea. It's the same to all World of Darkness books, even Princess The Hopeful: there's an enemy outside, Pentex, the Antideluvian, the Camarilla, and then there are other "players" that disagree with you, like the Queen of Tears, the Fae, other werewolves, your backstabbing coworker...

>>96059105
>just don't include it
part of the allure of a pregenerated setting like this is in having a self-contained world. you gotta have a way for werewolves to make more werewolves, because that kind of shit forms a pretty big part of the background drama that drives interactions with NPCs and the world at large.

while it's not a deal-breaker, it's definitely an eye-blistering decision and a bit hard to swallow. yeah, sure, my werewolf PC is probably not going to have to worry about whether he has any cousins with higher purebred than the one he's currently fucking, but his pack probably will. And if not, then someone in a higher position might.

idk anon, it's just pretty fucking weird, to borrow a nebulous phrase meaning "unpalatable to me personally".

>>96059569
You should also remember that homid werewolves are going to be more culturally human than their lupus and metis counterparts. The average homid isn't gonna be a big fan of the cousin-fucking and is probably going to be a normal person, but lupus/metis aren't going to see an issue with it because that's how things have been for their entire time with sentience.
This is one of those natural division within clan that's an easy source of conflict.

what the fuck are humid werewolves

>>96059653
Homid. Human born werewolves(ww + human parents).
Lupus. Wolf born werewolves(ww + wolf parents).
Metis. Werewolf born werewolves(ww + ww parents).

>>96059653
Weighed down by about a hundred extra pounds of water if they're in Crinos or Hispo.

>>96059653
Rokea

>>96035977 (OP)
Simply? They'd loose...badly. There are not enough werewolves to take on Pentex. Even if you take out of consideration all the wyrm tainted resources Pentex has at it's disposal, there is the exposure factor. A base concept behind all WoD games is don't get exposed to the norms.

>>96056140
>how'd they achive that?
Well, this guy said it first: >>96056409
>what would the campaign be exactly?
For the first time out, it depends on the players. Do they want to do survival horror against rampant Red Talons and the Get in a mostly medieval world, or would they prefer the vampire-infested Dredd style urban hellscape of the City? They could try to restore the old ways, they might think the way the world is now is better. I plan on allowing options for both that they can discover.

>>96059569
It's not a case of "just don't include it," it's a case of "the core gameplay loop and narratives of Werewolf the Apocalypse typically don't mention eugenics or breeding whatsoever."
The focus of a typical session is discovering how the agents of the Wyrm are infiltrating a particular aspect of society and using it to harm Gaia, figuring out a sane and sensible way of eliminating them without causing too much collateral damage, dealing with any werewolves who threaten to sabotage your efforts using either diplomacy or combat, and finally going through with your plan and killing the agents of the Wyrm while hopefully ruining as few innocent lives as possible.
Notice how the breeding shit doesn't come up. Yes, it's a part of the setting and can be a part of the background drama, but the game doesn't fixate on it half as much as this thread has. There's also the fact that werewolf society is intentionally designed to be flawed so that the player-characters can strive to fix it, complete with suggestions like:
>Hey, maybe all of this inbreeding to preserve the bloodlines of ancient heroes is fucked up and maybe we shouldn't choose our leaders based on how tangled their family trees are.
It's going to be a struggle against stodgy regressive elders who cling to backwards traditions and crazed spirits who genuinely mistake these purebred individuals for their ancestors, but there's nothing forcing your character to support or advocate for all of this weird shit.

>>96062473
>It's going to be a struggle against stodgy regressive elders
oh so like real life

>>96062824
it's almost like a lot of the conflicts in the world of darkness are an exaggerated reflection of real life struggles

>>96062848
Struggling against regressive elders doesn't feel exagerated though. Do you know how often I begged, on my knees, for American to use the sebsible day/month/year format, only to be opposed some "b-b-b-but we always used month/day/year" NPC line?
Same with the Americans mistaking ground floor for the first floor.

>>96062861
It is exaggerated when the elder is a grizzled old wolf monster who will personally beat you into a bloody pulp over and over again, if you refuse to murder everyone inside of that homeless shelter because they smell like the devil.

>>96062894
...fair. I have yet to meet an American that can turn into a furry. But I'm quite lucky, I know these exists.

>>96038475
>the ones to rule over the new world built on the ruins of the old world as pharaohs.

>>96039401
>Without people at the bottom, their entire pyramid scheme fucking Collapses under them

>For Ancient Egypt, souls had 5 to 9 parts
>Khat was the body that became a link to the afterlife after it perished. If the khat was damaged, paintings and statues could assume its role.
>Ka was life, vital essence, personality.
>Ba was the part which traveled between the Khat and the Ka every night.
>Akh was Ka + Ba, the immortal soul which belongs to Heaven as the Khat belongs to Earth.

>Walter Elias Disney's Khat was cremated, but his Akh is sustained through countless offerings channeled through the Ba, known to us as the "Walt Disney Company"

Did all those "Ancient Egypt but cyberpunk" threads got it wrong?

>>96035977 (OP)
They're too busy killing each over over minor slights.

>>96046691
Also they don't kill each other over stupid shit. As much.

>>96065117
They absolutely do. They're a corporation. It's just that at the level of management where this happens, there are plenty of replacements for a dead executive's boots. And when you get a dangerously sane and efficient one, they can stick around for a bit before getting torn apart as "okay, this one is actually dangerous" target number one.

>>96065819
Don't take the bait.

>>96065819
Junior executives are a dime a dozen, they come and go. But Mr. Kikers is eternal.

>>96058701
>knocking up spirits
W-what?

>>96058701
>i've always wondered where to meet a woman to wife up, guess i'll start learning WoD
I used to go to WoD (mostly vampire) larps in the 90's and the amount of post game orgy blowjobs I received from obese goth chicks is uncountable. <spoiler> okay like two dozen but still </spoiler>

>>96066191
There are rare cases of werewolves being born of a union between a werewolf and an animistic spirit of the Umbra, the spiritual embodiment of something. This isn't a common thing at all.
However, because some rare examples of this do exist, there are some people on /tg/ who insist that werewolves are idiots for not implementing some sort of mass spirit rape conveyor belt to pump out endless armies of werewolf-spirit babies to fight the Wyrm for them.

>>96066191
There was a merit for having a spirit as a parent in the 2e Younger Brother tribebook, and the iconic character for the tribe in Revised is John North Wind's Son, because he is literally the son of a spirit of the north wind.

>>96066226
Anon, there's an entire background for having a spirit parent or ancestor in both revised and 20th. It's literally called "spirit heritage".

>>96066217
Why would it's rarity be relevant? Isn't the anon's argument that they should to it more?
That's kind of like saying "people rarely make their own food" as an argument against people cooking for themselves.

>>96066292
Just because something is possible, that doesn't mean it can be done on an industrial mass-production scale. If something is rare and unusual, it's usually for reasons that prevent it from being more common. It's rarely as simple as "just do more of it."

>>96066307
>it's usually for reasons that prevent it from being more common
I can point out a lot of examples where the reason is "nothing actually valid, just Retardation and/or Laziness" in real life.

>>96066307
I'd bet you money the black spirals do this. It'd explain why they have the most tribe members despite having 40k levels of casualties at a constant rate.

>>96066322
Yeah, werewolves are just lazy and retarded, that's why they haven't turned the Umbra into their personal rape camp and increased their population tenfold. There couldn't possibly be any practical or ethical reason for why that isn't possible.

>>96066464
>ethical reason
Werewolves aren't very good at the ethics thing anon. The ethics argument doesn't really have any weight. There are no practical arguments to make, because there's none the books make.
You're essentially demanding people assume there's a good reason in absence of any evidence.

>>96035977 (OP)
>What exactly prevents the werewovles from breaking down Pentex's gate and slaughter everyone?

Infighting, relatively low numbers, and a fuckton of guns and power on Pentex's part, including collusion with the Technocracy in some very fringe cases; as well as mostly everything else also wanting to fuck werewolves up because they're assholes, including other werewolves.

>>96050249
>What even is Pentex?
>Think Koch Industries + Berkshire Hathaway + Black Rock but as Captain Planet bad guys.

>>96054901
>.so, any game where we can play as Pentex?
Yes.

>>96066579
So, Koch Industries + Berkshire Hathaway + Black Rock as they are IRL?

>>96066533
>There are no practical arguments to make, because there's none the books make.
The book says almost nothing on the subject at all, but that didn't stop a certain anon from running away with it and claiming that the werewolves are stupid for not starting up spirit rape camps. Just because a thing is possible, that does not mean that the thing taken an absurd and absolute extreme is possible.
Some basic knowledge about the setting would make you realise why this is impossible on any large scale. Most spirits are fundamentally inhuman and incompatible with how most werewolves think. A spirit and a werewolf entering a relationship that produces a child is going to be extremely unlikely for that reason. As for non-consensual methods, the various incarnae are bound to be very unhappy with werewolves that bind their progeny for the purpose of raping them, and upsetting the sources of most of their supernatural abilities would be an extremely bad idea. There's also the fact that they're supposed to maintain balance in the Umbra and the balance would be completely fucked by the process of turning the spirit world into a werewolf baby factory, something that would likely throw the entire Garou Nation straight into the lap of the Weaver. All of these metaphysical implications are extremely obvious to people who actually know about the setting.

>>96066770
>There's also the fact that they're supposed to maintain balance in the Umbra and the balance would be completely fucked by the process of turning the spirit world into a werewolf baby factory
NTA, but aren't there literally spirits who's whole job is being a baby factory and they align with those forces the werewolves are trying to protect/make more of because the weaver and/or wyrm are killing them off? The "Rapecamp" anons kinda have a point.

>>96066838
Can you cite which spirits these are, that they are sexually compatible with werewolves, and that they would consent to be used in this way by werewolves?

>>96066882
An example are the literal wyld spirits of birth. If they possess something they become a neied, who's literal only job is breeding with anything they can find, garou in particular.
They're not breeding-camp material as neieds, because anything they give birth to is turned into a gorgon that works for the wyld(which means their 100% garou true-breeding makes super-soldiers for the wyld), but literal spirits of birth in their pure form would have 0 issues fulfilling their wyld-given purpose.

>>96066949
When breeding with werewolves, nereids give birth to something between shapeshifters and gorgons, due to the offspring being a union of the energies of Gaia in the werewolf and the energies of the Wyld in the nereid. Considering this logic, I have no reason to assume that a union between a passion (that becomes a nereid when it possesses a human woman) and a werewolf would lack that Wyld energy that produces that peculiar offspring, as a passion is a spirit of the Wyld.
In fact, this serves as an indicator that the Triatic allegiance of a spirit is likely to have a significant impact on the child produced by the union, meaning that the werewolves would need to focus on raping primarily Gaian spirits, in order to avoid their offspring being corrupted by any of the Triat.

>>96067124
>have no reason to assume that a union between a passion (that becomes a nereid when it possesses a human woman) and a werewolf would lack that Wyld energy that produces that peculiar offspring, as a passion is a spirit of the Wyld.
I can point out why that happens, it's because it's not wyld energy. You need to be possessed by a spirit to become any kind of triatic possessed. Neieds have a variation of the "Procreation" power detailed in Freak Legion, which is a possessed only power. Spirits can't use possessed powers on their own.
>(that becomes a nereid when it possesses a human woman)
Humans can't be gorgons(writers beg you ignore that the story for gorgons has a human possessed).

>>96067267
Werewolf the Apocalypse constantly disagrees with itself over whether Wyld spirits can possess humans and produce gorgons or not. Contradictions are present in both of the primary books that talk about gorgons.
Anyway, you're going need to point out the source that specifically give nereids the power that you've mentioned, as the source which I'm referencing directly states that the child is a hybrid between gorgon and shapeshifter because it is a union of Gaian and Wyld energy, and I have no reason to believe that this Wyld energy would be absent when the Wyld spirit is not possessing a fleshy host.

>>96067335
Anon, I have the book open right now "energies" are not why the nereid's offspring becomes a gorgon. The book says:
> The resulting progeny is quite literally the offspring of the union between Gaia and the Wyld — a hybrid of shapeshifter and gorgon
They aren't saying "wyld energies" are why they become a gorgon, you need to get possessed by an actual spirit to become possessed anon.

>>96067267
Why didn't they port the "procreate" power in the possessed book, Nereids and fomori families literally rely on it to function.

>>96067394
Now that you have the page open and see that the power that mentioned doesn't exist, can you explain why the child of a Wyld spirit and a werewolf is not "the offspring of the union between Gaia and the Wyld" while the child of a gorgon (flesh possessed by a Wyld spirit) and a werewolf is "the offspring of the union between Gaia and the Wyld?"

>>96066949
>They're not breeding-camp material as neieds
Honestly, this isn't an issue. Gorgons are allowed to become a normal member of their race any time they want and the wyld need the help. Building nereid breeding cearns would be a boons for the war on the wyrm.

>>96067429
>power that mentioned doesn't exist
Anon, the nereid in the possessed book don't have stats. They have suggested powers for the st and the powers section in possessed literally tells you to use the Freak Legion abilities as necessary as well.

>>96067455
>tells you to use the Freak Legion abilities as necessary as well
Fucking lazy ass writers. Why didn't they just port the rest of the powers and stat out the possessed like they did the kami section?

>>96067455
If it's not a suggested power, then I have no reason to believe that it's a power that nereids are canonically supposed to have. I could use that same logic to say that nereids should have Phoenix Fire and Mind Blast.
You can't claim that nereids canonically operate according to the rules of Procreation because you think it would be cool if they did. It's fine if you want to handle it that way at your table, but it's not what White Wolf presents to us in the book.
I'll stop here because this conversation is going nowhere, but I think it's ridiculous that people make arguments like "werewolves are retarded for not running spirit rape camps to bolster their population" when the argument is founded on misinterpreting niche rules scraped together from half a dozen different books from across multiple different editions, while refusing to acknowledge basic logic applied to basic knowledge of the setting.
It strikes me as a pretty silly way to approach playing games in general.

>>96067587
>You can't claim that nereids canonically operate according to the rules of Procreation because you think it would be cool if they did.
But you can claim passions operate exactly as nereids just because you think it'd be cool if they did?
Both of you are arguing baseless headcanon and arguing that it's canon.

>>96047794
Wtf is a flesh tree? Is it like in that Lovecraft story?

>>96067612
An inherently pointless argument too as anon: >>96067443 pointed out.

>>96058320
Story?
>t. WoDlet

>>96067682
The Tzimisce antediluvian is basically an amorphous slime of ever-changing flesh that turns into various plants, fungi, and animals on a whim. It has been known to manifest as a giant tree made of living flesh which gives an impression of divine power.

>>96067947
I get it. Tzimisce antediluvian is grey goo. Freaky.

>>96038406
Isn't another factor that the problems caused by the other Changing Breeds not being around to do their jobs (because the garou fucking murdered most of them) gets compounded over time too?

>>96068147
The War of Rage is one of the two worst crimes ever committed by the Garou, yes, even if it was triggered by the Wyrm's manipulation and pre-existing animosity between the Changing Breeds. Prehistoric werewolves fucked up and that has contributed to the contemporary state of the World of Darkness. Contemporary werewolves are left with three choices:
>Defend the actions of their ancestors and fight back against those who insult the Garou.
>See the Garou as nothing but monsters responsible for everything bad ever and surrender to despair.
>Do better and strive for a better future.

>>96068202
And their entire social structure centers on them doing the first option, because that's the only sure-fire way to gain social and spiritual power.

>>96068299
Except for the entire tribes and camps that don't do that and the spirits that cater to those who don't follow the norm and the growing liberalism in the latest generations of the Garou, causing increasing tension and change within Garou society.

>>96068339
All of which has only gained a leg to stand on in recent years with the crowning of albreich, and are still on the back foot fighting and uphill battle. For centuries before then it was color in the lines or never rank up, period.

>>96068367
Yeah, and democracy and liberalism have only existed for a couple of centuries. It turns out that people were historically ignorant and intolerant, and this applies to werewolves as well.

What's the point that you're getting at?

>>96068385
>Yeah, and democracy and liberalism have only existed for a couple of centuries.
Anon, democracy is thousands of years old. The reason it was historically uncommon is because they had a tendency to collapse spectacularly very quickly.
America is currently the longest living republic in history(at 250 yo) and is second oldest historically after the roman republic(which only lasted 450 years before going full empire).
Empires and monarchies tech to last much, much longer.

>>96068424
Alright, democracy and liberalism have only become widespread for a couple of centuries. Sorry, my error with the wording there.

What's the point that you're getting at?

>>96068428
Your saying this like they're guarenteed to actually shit anything in wider ww culture before collapsing in on themselves.
America only accepted liberalism for a couple decades and it's already on the edge of collapse. Moral societies don't tend to win vs "ignorant and intolerant" societies in the long term.

>>96068442
>guarenteed to actually shit anything
*shift anything

>the garou are so dumb for the war of rage!!11!
>the genocides committed by my ancestors make me so happy and also they didn't happen
Choose one.

>>96068442
Alright, and what's the ultimate point that you're making here?

>>96068465
That garou culture is still largely centered around ancestor worship and elders refusing admit fault for actually destroying the setting?

>>96068462
Why?
The War of Rage was a terrible mistake, that Garou traditionalists refuse to acknowledge because it contradicts their ancestor worship.
I don't see any contradiction there.
>>96068485
>actually destroying the setting
Except for that, we can agree on that and I never disagreed with that, as that doesn't contradict the point that there are still entire tribes and camps that go against the refusing to admit fault narrative.
But there's absolutely no guarantee that preventing the War of Rage would have prevented an Apocalypse from ever occurring. Garou made things worse with the War of Rage and the Impergium, but let's not pretend that they are the sole reason for the Apocalypse, or that they are the sole factor that made it inevitable.

>>96068462
if your ancestors were genocided, how are you still around to whine about it?

checkmate, librul.

>>96050452
>Pentex can be terrifyingly banal and unfathomably powerful, or it can be absurdly evil and ridiculously cartoony, depending on how you want to look at it.

It can be both.

>>96053467
Some things are beyond strength, anon.

>>96069043
Thank you, you can stop quoting the lich now.

>>96066266
That's another approach. It post-dates the merit from the tribebook by several years.

>>96066533
Better than one might think, because they decided not to let the Impergium continue and in spite of a number of times where they could have, continued to not bring it back. Over about nine millennia. Human civilization as a whole has yet to last anywhere near as long IRL, and we've continually had wholesale extermination attempts of one ethnic group by another going on.

>>96066673
Yep.

>>96067335
No, it's clear that they can't be. Any gorgons that look human still aren't. In fact, some might be mistaken for Garou or Fera in the same way that a fomor that turns into a wolf, goes into frenzies, and doesn't like silver would.

>>96068147
The murder by Garou was only the start of the problem. Human actions frequently made their lot worse, with very few exceptions, like Corax finding a lot of human dwellings more accessible or the Ratkin having a huge, forgotten area in most major cities to call their own without most the wiser for it.

>>96068786
Genocide can mean the destruction of culture as well as living members, anon. Like how the Ratkin lost an entire Aspect, roughly comparable to the Galliard, which compounded the issue by having a breakdown of their culture's transmission over its entire breadth.

But there are definitely still Ratkin around. More than there are Garou.

Incidentally, Ratkin are also an example of what happens if you start breeding way too much with spirits. That's part of why they have several additional Freak Aspects, some of whom come mostly from spirit-kin who became flesh after infection by the Birthing Plague... and are utterly delusional on account of not being grounded in reality.

>>96068299
It's a faster way. It's definitely not the only way. The chart tells you what kind of hit you're taking to your esteem in society, but if you can find a number of other ways to compensate for it, you can still reform on the way up.

>>96057258
Sounds like niglizard self-aggrandizement and victim point farming.

>>96068202
No, I mean like, every fera had a job, an spiritual ecological niche. Werewolves killed shit, for example, and the wereboars . . . purified things by eating it or something? The mokole do some shit with memory, and so on.

So you've got all of this spiritual garbage the wereboars aren't dealing with, the mokole aren't remembering shit and that's made Gaia half retarded if other anons are to be believed, and maybe the wererats are fucking out of control and they're overdoing their thing, and over centuries it's just helped fuck the world just as much as Pentex sticking its literal and figurative dick in everything.

>>96069057
Okay, you're the one who thought you could just punch the evils of capitalism in the face and make it go away, forever, and I'm the idiot for quoting a children's cartoon.

>>96045839
>Have you ever seen a human commute with spirits?
Drinking and driving is bad enough, but day drinking and driving? Downright gauche.

>>96053650
At one point, due to RAW, a beginner mage could transform a given vampire into a regular wooden chair with no save. I'm pretty sure they've since nipped that little rules interaction in the bud, but vampires are still relatively low on the totem pole when compared to other supernaturals.

>>96057108
>Warhammer 40000 is still the absolute worst setting I can think of
Look into Xeelee

>>96038415
A guy I've wanted to play for a while is an ancient vampire lord who's recently re-awakened and misses the trappings of the old, including vampire hunters.
He'll get very excited when some show up, then very upset when they don't take any of the crucifixes or swords on his wall and instead shoot him with some kind of rapid fire hand cannon

>>96070142
I didn't say you're an idiot. I just saw what you were referring to, and I made a reference to it because I got it.
Stop thinking everyone hates you, sometimes a jape is just a jape and not a stab in the gonads with a rusty barb.

>>96070685
No. Warhammer 40000 gavem e anxiety as a kid, I'm not reading anything worse.

>>96055253
wait if kinfolk can make werewolves, why would you EVER have a werewolf fuck a kinfolk?
Werewolves should be fucking as many people as far spread as they can, which will increase the natural incidence of werewolves in a literally exponential fashion.

Roving packs of rape werewolves is somehow the OPTIMAL way.

>>96070808
Because the Garou Nation needs every werewolf that it can get in order to fight the Wyrm, and needs to do everything that it can to stop werewolves from falling into the enemy's hands.
A generation that goes about raping humans to make more kinfolk is a generation that not only threatens to disrupt the Veil and alert humanity to the existence of werewolves, but it's a generation that doesn't create enough werewolves to replace them as they die out, leading to a much weaker Garou Nation two decades later, which could lead to the Wyrm's victory.
Also, the Garou Nation doesn't have enough eyes and enough presence to watch over all of their kinfolk rape babies in this scenario, so they wouldn't know when kinfolk are fucking and when a potential werewolf is born, so they wouldn't be around to pick up these werewolves after their First Changes. Best case scenario, these fresh werewolves do a lot of damage and disrupt the Veil a lot before the Nation gets its hands on them. Worst case scenario, these fresh werewolves get picked up by Pentex (which has much better surveillance than the Nation) and handed over to the Black Spiral Dancers to become twisted, insane servants of the Wyrm.
Finally, this sort of evil shit is exactly why the Nation held the Concord in the first place and established the Veil, seeking to turn all of humanity into their breeding stock is Impergium shit and the sort of foulness that they've all vowed to never do again.

So no, not as optimal as you think.

>>96070808
>Werewolves should be fucking as many people as far spread as they can
Pretty much. BUT they also look down on non-werewolves people.

Just replace "werewolf" with "white people", "kinfolks" with "half-breed", and "non-kinfolks" with some random racial slur and you'll understand the prejudice these furry fucks have against their betters.

>>96070116
Yes, prehistoric werewolves fucked up and yes, that fuck-up contributed to the current state of the World of Darkness, even if it's not the only factor responsible for the current state of the world and even if it was instigated by the Wyrm, who would have likely found some other way to fuck things up if that failed.
No one's going to argue against the fact that prehistoric werewolves did some monstrous shit that's partially responsible for the World of Darkness being as bad as it is.

>>96071069
>"Instead of explaining me why is it my fault the world is screwed, why don't you work harder to fix the problem?" - Elder werewolf

>>96071076
The elder's got a valid point.
Knowledge of how prehistoric werewolves fucked up provides an important lesson about how being over-zealous about fighting the enemy can cause almost as much damage as the enemy itself.
Other than that, kvetching about the Impergium and the War of Rage isn't useful whatsoever and younger werewolves are better off learning the lessons that need to learned from these events, doing better, and hopefully teaching their elders how to do better as well. No one gains anything from young werewolves throwing a pity party and flagellating themselves over crimes that their ancestors committed ten thousand years ago.

>>96071101
>"The elder's got a valid point." - Elder.

>>96071012
Wait, Pentex knows about the werewolves?

>>96071317
Yes, though they're also encouraged to maintain the Veil rather than directly revealing the existence of werewolves, as that would likely lead to them revealing themselves as a death cult trying to bring about the Apocalypse.
99% of the company is wage-workers and middle-managers who don't know shit and just do their ordinary, mundane jobs.
Of the 1% who know about werewolves, 90% of them are fed propaganda. Lycanthropes are real, they are a genetic disease that plagues humanity, their physiological properties make them extremely dangerous and their psychological illnesses makes them prone to destructive outbursts. For the good of civilisation, they must be terminated. Now here, sign this NDA.
The remaining 0.1% are actually aware of the existence of the Wyrm, of Gaia, of what the Garou really are and of the damage that Pentex is causing.

>>96071398
>middle-managers who don't know shit and just do their ordinary, mundane jobs
Wait, the managers aren't on to the death cult?
So they're just assholes because...?

>Of the 1% who know about werewolves, 90% of them are fed propaganda
Yeah, I saw a list of video games that Pentex indirectly did, they all present werewolves as monsters to kill.

>>96036276
Noob here: world of darkness has a general? What's their name? Are they actually in the military?

>>96071413
General in this context means a reoccuring thread that is intended to be constantly available, getting reposted whenever it falls off.
Generals tend to be looked down upon for their tendencies to form circlejerks.

>>96071405
>So they're just assholes because...?
Because they're paid to be, because of the company perks and because if they rock the boat, they're fired and easily replaced with someone else desperate for the job.
So when an O'Tolley's employees ask their branch manager why they have to mix this foul-smelling goo into the beef mince for their burgers, rather than go "good question, I'll get an answer for you from head office," they go "shut the fuck up if you want to keep your job."

>>96071456
I mean, they don't even have the excuse of being death cultists to explain why they're assholes.

>>96071464
Pentex is invested in the destruction of the world and the destruction of society, this includes making the lives of its low-level employees (wagies and middle-managers) absolutely miserable and awful, and miserable people tend to be assholes.

>>96071480
>miserable people tend to be assholes
True. I had a customer like that the other day, because he was a customer and I was a clerk, he thought I was his slave.
He got pretty pissed when I told him I wasn't a robot and that if he kept screaming, I was going to call the cops on him and have him removed.

>>96071489
Now imagine what sort of awful fucking life and what sort of shitty job that guy must have, to make him treat other people like such shit.

>>96071501
I mean, he was bald. If I was bald, I'd be a miserable loser too.

>>96071069
>>96071101
I'm not trying to play the blame game or kvetch about the war of rage.

>the Wyrm, who would have likely found some other way to fuck things up if that failed.

This seems to indicate that it really doesn't matter that the other fera aren't around to their Gaia appointed task, or that the ones who are around are as diminished and misguided as modern garou.

So my takeaway from your posts is - apart from saying that werewolves shouldn't feel werewolf guilt over the sins of old dead werewolves - that even if the war of rage never happened and the other fera were around in numbers and not corrupted/misguided/fucked up, the world would still be shit anyway.

>>96071317
Son, you have a Black Spiral Dancer in the board of directors

>>96072790
>and the other fera were around in numbers and not corrupted/misguided/fucked up
Considering that even before the War of Rage, the Wyrm was malevolent and seeking to bring about an apocalypse, and it was his manipulation that kickstarted the War of Rage in the first place, I have reason to believe that he would have likely found another weak link to start an event similar to the War of Rage, if his attempt to start the War of Rage failed.
The Triat was already imbalanced at the time and I believe that this imbalance would have inevitably led to the Fera being slaughtered, corrupted, misguided, fucked up or anything else in some shape or form.
It could even be argued that the Fera in their totality failed at their Gaia-appointed tasks long before the War of Rage, by allowing the Triatic imbalance to get to the point where the Wyrm was trying to corrupt them and turn them against each other.
But I think that sort of blame game was pointless. The point is that even back then, cosmic forces were conspiring to ruin the world and I don't think the Garou, or even all of the Fera at the time, were in a position to fight back against that. The fall of the Changing Breeds was inevitable, as they were one of the primary barriers preventing the ruination of the world. If the War of Rage wasn't a viable option, the Wyrm (or perhaps the Weaver) would have found a way to remove these obstacles.
It's a bunch of stone age shapeshifters with their own petty tribal politics dividing them, against the spirit-gods of order and destruction. Betting that the Fera would have come out on top if it wasn't for those darn werewolves strikes me as a bit foolish.

>>96073006
>It could even be argued that the Fera in their totality failed at their Gaia-appointed tasks long before the War of Rage
The imbalance of the triat happened before the first mokole was ever spawned. It was never the fera's job to prevent the imbalance of the triat, it's their job to try to fix it.

>>96073045
Again, I'd rather not play the blame game, but if they failed to fix it and the Wyrm had so much influence that he has able to engineer the War of Rage, then I'd argue that the inaction of the Fera in their entirety is as much to blame for the state of the contemporary World of Darkness as the werewolves are for starting the War of Rage.

I'd rather focus on the point that all of the Fera were helpless and doomed to get fucked up one way or another, considering that they were going up against the literal gods of death and order.

>>96073006
>Betting that the Fera would have come out on top if it wasn't for those darn werewolves strikes me as a bit foolish.

Would the be less shitty if the Fera were around doing their job?

Your answer: a resounding no. The Fera ain't shit now, weren't shit then, and never will be shit. They were an entirely pointless and useless creation that never served any purpose in setting, ever, and no Fera has ever accomplished anything of note or worth, nor ever will.

It seems like Gaia being half retarded in modern day is a step up from being full retard in prehistory.

>>96046509
Many of the grognards are leftoid slop worshippers

>>96073116
You're taking things to absurd extremes again. The Fera helped and prevented the balance from tipping too heavily towards the Weaver and the Wyrm for a very long time, but I maintain that the War of Rage or an equivalent event was inevitable. Even if the werewolves weren't coaxed into it by the Wyrm, perhaps a few millennia later, maybe the ratkin would have bred out of control in secret and maybe the Wyrm could have convinced them to eat all of the other Fera, or some other alternate event.
In the grand cosmic sense, sure, Fera just delayed the inevitable. To be more generous however, they kept the Apocalypse at bay and ensured that Gaia was stable enough to harbour life for millennia, if not millions of years, and if it wasn't for those darn werewolves fooling for the Wyrm's tricks, maybe they could have kept the world in check for another two or three thousand years. That matters, to a degree.

>>96073388
>You're taking things to absurd extremes again.

No more than you. You're the one who took "less shitty" to mean "come out on top."

>>96073434
How is being in a constant struggle to keep the maddened fragments of a third of universal forces coming out on top? You still had shit like the Talons of the Wyrm breaking through from Malfeas back in the Really Old Days, but There were heroes ready to fight and die so that they could be defeated and bound. And in the latter case, that meant eternal vigilance or else.

Turns out it wasn't just for what they had bound, though. It also would have helped against what was over the horizon.

>>96072983
...the whole game is rigged from the start, isn't it?

>>96071405
>So they're just assholes because...?
Because they just think it's a regular, mundane job for a regular, mundane company.