Future Darkness Edition
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>Thread Question:
>Have you ever run a gothic-cyberpunk story for a WoD/CofD campaign like world of future darkness?

Not really, I have enough Cyborgs in normal WoD.

>>96080231 (OP)
fuck yeah Blame! op

to answer i always wanted to run gothapocalypse instead (earth was nuked and it turned into wod meets fallout) but i never got around to it

if someone get's ghouled again after a long time back as mortal do they regain their old disciplines?

like let's assume a ghoul knew auspex, but then lost or got abandoned by their master and then gets ghouled again 5-10 years later do they regain that dot in auspex?

>>96080373
Depends on the version, IIRC the first book on ghouls said that ghouls lost 1 dot every 5 years without Vitae or something along those lines.

>>96080231 (OP)
>Have you ever run a gothic-cyberpunk story for a WoD/CofD campaign like world of future darkness?
I don't run games but it would be fun to play

>>96080373
>if someone get's ghouled again after a long time back as mortal do they regain their old disciplines?
That's how my ST would rule it, I think

How do I run antagonists my players will really hate without resorting to grimderp? They always think the bad guys are cool, even if they're fighting them, so how do I make them hate their enemies?

>>96080231 (OP)
I haven't used a gothic punk world but I have played on the space opera mirror. It was pretty neat but I believe it would have worked better with a longer chronicle.

>>96080930
As in any other game, make them steal from PCs.

>>96080930
>How do I run antagonists my players will really hate without resorting to grimderp?
Make them care about something or someone else and have the antagonist hurt them. Either that or make him a prick fucking over the PCs.
Good luck either way.

>>96080930
The power of smug. Make them belittle the players (and also the characters), steal from them, repeatedly screw them over "not out of spite, but because I'm just better than you." That sort of thing.

>Besides the Gargoyles Virstania created a rat with the filmy wings of a dragonfly, a maggot - thing bigger than a cat, propelling itself on several pairs of human tongues, a mourning dove whose breast suppurated with the slow pulsing of what could only be a woman's privates[1].
I blame Goratrix for this.

>>96080976
Also she's a fat bitch. Thank you for reminding me this cunt exists, I needed a fun villain for my mages.

>>96080976
Virstania made hybrids before her embrace so that would be unfair

guy already has to shoulder the blame on the failed tremere ritual and gargoyles so don't also make him shoulder the blame for Virstania being such a white women

>>96080930
Figure out what your player characters value and have the villain attack it. Worked too well for my most recent villain, they have a heavily distorted view of what he's actually about.

I painted how I imaged the giant figure of Caine, as of the First City. The two heads on each shoulder are his Beast, THE first Beast. And on the other, the pale and withered corpse-aspect of vampires, immortal and static. And in the darkness in between is the predatory intelligence of Caine. And around his shoulders is a cloak of deepest darkness, stolen from the Abyss.
The howling shades in his belly is more symbolic than literal, they are all of his victims throughout time and space, crying out in lamentation.

>>96081247
This is cool as fuck, you're massively talented

>>96080976
She was crazy before Goratrix ever met her

>>96081260
Thanks man! I always liked to imagine Caine like a living god, dark and terrible, even moreso than the Antedeluvians.

>>96081247
This is good shit, anon. Do you have any more WoD inspired art?

>>96081219
>born 1060
>makes mage 1080
>gap staying in her chambers stress-eating and sewing fish heads onto rats for company
>sired 1111
Nothing made of vulva or drooling acid before Goratrix brought her onto his gargoyle project, he can go on her pyre with her.

>>96081300
Yeah I made a Salubri a few threads ago, and some homebrew were-ants, and a bloodworm fomori, and a few attempts at a ferectoi and her two Pentex minders, and I'm working on a Shadow Lord garou right now.

>>96081247
I like it a lot, the only thing I'm not a fan of is the crown, it looks a bit off compared to the rest of the piece. Couldn't say why.

>>96080930
Pettiness and cruelty
>Local Ventrue elder tells your pc to stand on one leg, pushes them over, then tells them to get up and stand on one leg again
>Local Brujah agitator surrounded by his gang asks for a sigarette, grabs the whole packet and stuffs it in his pocket, giving you a look that says 'what are you gonna do about it?'
That sort of shit will make your players utterly despise your antagonists way more than having them burn down an orphanage full of people they didn't know.

>>96080231 (OP)
Is Blame! a good example of WtO’s Labyrinth?

>>96081325
Going through 4plebs. Thank you for the great art, friend

>>96080976
>>96081219
She's just angry she was embraced before Goratrix ate a Salubri and lowered his generation.

>>96081726
I mean. he wasn't the one who embraced her in the first place. He had someone else do it.

>>96081758
That's even worse.

>>96081758
Given what we know about her, do you really blame him for not wanting to put his fangs anywhere near that landwhale?

>>96081897
My headcannon is that he actually tried but his fangs just couldn't penetrate her fat neck, so he just gave up on doing it personally.

>>96081897
>Virstania
>fat
>ugly
Probably has depression, some anxiety disorder and even fibromyalgia
Yup, Goratrix was right (again).

>>96081897
Tremere have auspex in clan. Given how bad fat NEET BO gets in real life, I imagine being near her is like being a bloodhound in a magic the gathering tournament with broken plumbing(and are thus they have porta-potties indoors)

I miss Mithras so bad, bros...

>>96081923
It was probably stress related overeating as the other anon implied. But she was definitely ''cracked'' in some way. Also considering how proactive she is in tending to her experiments and gargoyles, based on what the House Tremere dark age book mentions, she's the complete opposite of depressed. Probably some level of autism, self-delusion (she considered Goratrix her only friend, the above mentioned book however implies that was one sided) and/or psychopathy.

Another thing worth mentioning is the Goratrix, Malgorzata and Epistatia eventually completely lose interest in hybridization experiments and the actual nitty gritty of creating the gargoyles, due to how gruesome it is (Cainite or not that shit takes a toll on your psyche). She, however, likes doing it.

>>96082021
>completely lose interest in hybridization experiments
Which is pretty stupid, they hadn't even begun to explore the full potential. Gargoyles proved the process can be applied to vampires, so why not other nightfolk. Imagine if they started making frankensteins of multiple supernaturals together as servant abominations that one-up tzimisce vozhd completely.

>>96081962
kek

>>96081247
neat art

>>96082077
>t. populate night's gardens-anon

>>96082077
Theoretically, the level 3 ritual should be enough to work on humans, demi-splats, and possibly lupines given how much of the difficulty with gargoyles was how to grow and "birth" undead beings. Spirits, fae, and demons should be beyond either ritual though.

>>96081325
Ay yo, you made some were-ants? Still got it?

>>96082078
>Req Nosferatu

>>96080231 (OP)
>TQ

Out of curiosity, would this be from the perspective of a typical cyberpunk mercenary/gun for hire or a civilian caught up in shit?

>>96082021
How did she manage to lose weight for her boss fight in VTM: Redemption anyway?

>>96082316
Either. As long as it's gothicpunk meets cyberpunk, it fits.

How do you even run gothic cyberpunk besides in MtA and probably Orpheus?

>>96080976
Proof that tremere are a tzimisce bloodline

>>96082364
I should think it's all in the vibe of the setting, especially if you're not using any chronicle related stuff.

Although I'm curious what specific themes are being associated with gothicpunk when it gets mentioned.

>>96082384

>>96082371
As they should be, the sick fucks

>>96082364
World of future darkness is dedicated to this for VtM. Book of the weaver is a great supplement for this kind of game in WtA. Nothing would really change for wraiths, other than having stronger bodies to possess in the skinlands.
Changelings would be even more fucked than usual though.

>>96082316
Thauzempic

>>96081498
No problem! I got plenty more planned. Let me know if you want to see anything in particular!
>>96082167
Sure, here you go! I can give you some lore if you like, but this picture shows all of their forms, from their tiny "homid-like" form to their full war-ant form.

>>96082659
Got me fucked up, Nice Anon. While I'd like to know more, It saddens me all the incest breeds are fucking dead in the actual 'lore'

>>96082659
There's a lot you could do with were-ants. Hymenoptera, the genus of ants, also shares bees, wasps, and sawflies, all of who are close enough to hybridize.
You could make them into one mix-and-match species like the mokole. Ants, bees, etc. have some of the most evolved biological worfare weapons in nature(venom, acid, domesticated viruses, glue polymers, silk, natural grenades, pheremone-mimicry, etc.)

>>96082762
I agree, it's a shame. But my workaround here was that the Ants put a small number of eggs into stasis deep underground, before the Spiders overwhelmed and destroyed them.
But as far as official lore goes, my schizo theory is that the Padrone Ananasi actually are non-Ananasi werespiders, who rejected her dominion and ever since then have been creeping around down the ages preying on the other Spiders in secret.
>>96082799
I actually considered that Pentex might've "resurrected" the were-wasps by experimenting on a group of captured Ants, creating a Mockery Breed of Wasps. The creation of them was considered a useful project because Wasps being colonial creatures naturally would be able to be directed more than the other Mockeries.

>>96082799
While that could work I think making them a variant of the Ananasi would work best for most tables.

>>96082762
>incest breeds
Uhhh... We know what thorn anon's shadow invested in.

>>96082921
>my schizo theory is that the Padrone Ananasi actually are non-Ananasi werespiders, who [...] have been creeping around down the ages preying on the other Spiders in secret.
>Pentex might've "resurrected" the were-wasps by experimenting on a group of captured Ants, creating a Mockery Breed of Wasps
Stolen for my table, thank you for your service

>>96082960
>variant of the Ananasi
Anon, spiders and insects have less in common that you and a frog. The the arachnid arthrapod split is OLD.

>>96082981
I was talking about what would be the easiest way to write their template, not what would make the most taxonomical sense.

>>96082963
If you want even more to steal, the Padrone's war-form looks like the "pelican spiders". The sourcebook describes them as having "two long arms that keep their prey at a distance" and describes them as "blindingly fast". Both traits describe Pelican Spiders, but in particular the mysterious "long arms" are literally the super long fangs the Pelican spiders use to attack their spider prey.
My rationale for why the Padrone don't seem to have any culture is that they are extremely solitary, and have little or no interest in anything but eating Ananasi, partly because they get really high from it/its their only form of sustenance and partly as a form of vengeance for Queen Ananasa trying to extend her dominion over their ancient forebears. Use any of this that you like!

>>96082799
>>96082960
Why not both? Make them a middle ground with a mokole-lik design-your-own pithus/lilian equivalent forms. I also wouldn't give them a blood pool like the ananasi, that's a quirk from their incarnae, who was themselves slightly wyrm and wyld tainted compared to the other weaver-changer incarnae.

>>96082921
Ya sadly I don't think my GM will roll with that. I do hope to one day get to be in a changing breed one or something with them still existing many moons ago.

>>96082961
While yes, I'm also just retarded anon.

>>96083066
Well, it's a homebrew that really requires inserting a lot of homebrew lore to make it make sense, and it was designed with my own personal schizophrenic headcanon in mind, so it doesn't surprise me that your GM won't allow it

>>96080231 (OP)
Anyone got the wojak chart with werewolf tribes?

Awakeningfags:
I'm convinced I hallucinated a merit that gave mages extra Reach. Now, how would you rate such merit?
I was thinking 3 dots for one extra Reach for a single Arcanum; 5 dots for 2 extra Reaches and maybe 6 dots for one extra Reach for all magic.
Thoughts?

>>96081247
You mind if I use this as an actual art piece in some noddist elder's haven?

>>96081466
Not really. The Labyrinth has way more psychodrama, while the superstructure of Blame is more coldly hazardous. About the only similarities they share are the occasional bits of vast size and scope that take ages to pass through (in Wraith, they'll sometimes have hints of alien civilization having passed in to the void, while in Blame! most everything is a result of a human-created system gone out of control).

>>96083206
If you like! My artstation is here, if you'd like to see some more of my stuff! I post my WoD stuff there when its done. https://www.artstation.com/andrewdavenport

>>96083164
>Thoughts?
3 dots for +1 Reach and can only be bought once.

>>96083262
+1 Reach for a single Arcanum, I assume?

>>96080231 (OP)
What edition of werewolf and vampire have the best "lore" so to speak or best writing?
That actual mechanics don't matter much as I plan to use the 20th edition but I have heard that it is very plain in regards to style compared to previous editions.

>>96083082
Oh i mean ANY type of homebrew stuff for other then whats in the main book.

>>96080930
One word
Taxes
Had the hardest of Cammie cocksuckers go full Sabot when they had to give 20% of their payday to the Prince

>>96083323
Yeah, otherwise it just becomes too much of a "must pick".

>>96083349
>Had the hardest of Cammie cocksuckers go full Sabot when they had to give 20% of their payday to the Prince
Who and how the hell is going to track the vampire net worth of a whole city?

>>96083349
>Taxes
That's just low, man.

>>96083380
>net worth
NTA, but the prince could make the tax based on how big/important your Domain is.

>>96083382
There are only 2 certanties and vampires already overcame the first.

>>96083380
Noz get 25% cut of everything they report
There's a sewer child drinking blue blood in a storm drain right now

>>96083402
So it's just rent or property taxes?

>>96083342
1st Edition usually is the purest expression of the concept. Especially VtM.
VtR is either 1 or 2e depending on how much you what to emphasise torpor and the Strix respectively.

>>96083426
>1st Edition
Pure kino.

>>96083412
Depends on how much a piece of shit the prince is.

>>96083412
Sure. It's still part of Prince's greater domain that he's letting you manage, if he never called for tribute I'd be more worried about being product.

>>96083342
Revised for W:tA. There are also some early oddities in 1e that are of interest, like no Thrall of the Wyrm frenzies as such (intense frenzies just caused cannibalism instead), mirrors being required to step sideways instead of helping the process, or the Red Talons being the Garou Nation's most dedicated vampire-hunters.

>>96083505
>or the Red Talons being the Garou Nation's most dedicated vampire-hunters
Thats just what they say after mauling a daycare.

>>96083445
It also depends how many people he can murder before he is killed.

>>96083752
You will pay taxes and be happy

>>96083526
Well, they don't live near daycares and don't have homes, so it's much greater odds that if one is experimenting with Homid that they'll end up bumping into a vampire preying on transients. Which is what V:tM I believe calls "botching the hunt roll".

So I can see how the beef would start.

>>96083770
>Avarage use of Dominate
>>96083771
Fair, I just have a hard time picturing a Talon being a good enough urban tracker to not end up killing a bunch of civilians in 90% of their city hunts.

>>96083771
>>96083818
It's not that Talons are good trackers, although they are, it's that they need the flimsiest excuse to murder someone.

Doesn't need to be a vampire caught in flagrante delicto, a whiff of the Wyrm, a moving body without heat and heartbeat, that reeks of decay and stale blood even if it masks the scent of the Wyrm somehow, well, it's an open invitation.

Does the Camarilla crack down on Noddists as a matter of policy or is it up to the individual Prince?

>>96080930
Our ST noticed our "heart" character's main grudge against an early antag was him being a woman beater.
So the next one was a mind (and body) rapist.
Guy almost got himself killed just to go after him.

>>96083947
The policy is that it all hogwash, but it's not an actionable offence in most cases, and is treated as a retarded, but entrenched and permeating superstition much like Abrahamic religions in our world.
Although Princes inclined otherwise find excuses to rake obnoxiously proselytising noddists over coals readily enough.

>>96083947
>Does the Camarilla crack down on Noddists as a matter of policy or is it up to the individual Prince?
Everything is up to the Prince because the cam almost never enforces shit.

>>96083947
>mind rapist.
Dominatebros, the trash is getting angry.

>>96083996
Granted, the Camarilla is rather lax, but flagrant diablerie, major offences against Camarilla and severe breaches of the Masquerade are still grounds for even Prince's execution.

>>96083947
Officially, the only Camarilla "laws" are the Traditions. Of course there is quite a lot of precedent that has built up around interpretations of these traditions and how far the larger Camarilla will go to enforce them, but generally most discretionary power lies with the Prince. Autonomy of local rulers is one of the big draws for the Camarilla and why it has supporters, it asks relatively little of the ruler while providing much protection and legitimacy for them. Many Camarilla Elders are closet Noddists themselves. One can more or less believe the Book of Nod while disagreeing with the conclusions the Sabbat draws from it. Perhaps you consider the Sabbat's method of preventing Gehenna to be ineffective or worse, hastening its arrival. Or perhaps you agree there must be "Antediluvians" (ancient vampires who were the progenitors of the clans) but do not believe that they are all so shortsighted as to drink all their childer for shits and giggles. The demonization of Noddism in the Camarilla is more of a consequence of how the Sabbat has adopted the most radical version of it as dogma. So if some dipshit lick starts tossing around "Antediluvian" or "Gehenna" in public, it legitimizes the Sabbat or indicates the vampire may be sympathetic to them. Ergo they are socially ostracized or killed.

I played in a game where our Camarilla city kept around a Lasombra Antitribu defector who was preaching a "Camarilla-safe" version of Noddism that downplayed the apocalyptics and emphasized how much of what Caine actually says lines up with the Traditions. How he hated diablerie and was obsessed with honoring thy elder. Results were mixed. On one hand it did actually reduce the rates of sabbat defection to zero, on the other it created a moral authority that undermined the Prince. The Lasombra in question got ashed by his childe crashing out so we didn't get to determine if it could be brought to heel and integrated or not.

>>96084050
Almost never enforces There are still 7 federal agents.

>>96084092
There's seven justicars, who are closer to agency heads than agencies themselves. Each of them has quite a few Archons that work directly under them. Not to mention specialist archons like Alastors, Josians, and E-Division. Idk if there's any information about how many archons there actually are.

>>96084092
>federal agents
Governments have back-door deals with the technocracy and cam to help keep the masquerade. Vampire-levels of old money is very welcome in lobbying circles.

>>96083933
When you're always scrutinizing the world with a wolf's senses, walking corpses that drink blood will be fairly obvious.

>>96084253
The smell alone would be a dead give away but most people don't give the garou credit for that type of stuff, mostly because people forget that sense.

>>96084414
A point to remember is that vampires will smell like Vitae rather than any kind of natural blood. That alone means there's a unique-sure-fire identifier for vampires any garou will immediately pick up, even if they're a cub that doesn't know vampires even exist!

Do you use any site like world anvil for your chronicles?
If so, which one?

>>96084520
>Do you use any site like world anvil for your chronicles?
I just vomit ideas in a doc before stapeling them toguether into something to run.

>>96080231 (OP)

So am I just dumb, or is the mega missing the weaver book? Or did W20 not get one?

>>96084635
Both megas have a copy of the book of the weaver.

>>96084675
Did the Weaver never get updated to a 20th?

>>96084635
>Or did W20 not get one?
Nope, there is only the 1999 book from 26 years ago.

>>96084765
>>96084675
Fuck, Thanks guys. Guess I'm just gonna have to fight to death with the old ass book.

Is there a limit to how many Totems I can have?

>>96084892
No, but you should share with your frens, your greedy motherfucker.

>>96084892
As much as you can afford with your funny genoises stuff and words. Magic man

>>96084892
In pre-W5? One pack or personal (and not a pack and personal). Also, while the player chooses them, diegetically, the character does not.

>>96084969
>>96084983
>>96085019
Should've clarified: for a Dreamspeaker/Verbena mage.

>>96085035
>Mage

Do you have a Node nearby to help fuel your autism? If so, not really. If you do, by how much you wanna burn quint/tass on those fucking soul bastards.

Might I instead interest you in a far more comfy office job, under the Union where Totems aren't real?

>>96085035
I think there's no limit. In practice, you may have a hard time fuelling too many fetishes.

>>96084892
I wouldn't allow more than one, unless in exceptional circumstances and with both Totems' blessing.

If you still try to two-time you would lose your first Totem's benefits and gain a second ban.

What are your thoughts on "alternate" versions of a given supernatural creature? For example, the many things similar to but not quite vampires that exist in both versions of Vampire. Do you like it conceptually? Which executions do you like? If you don't like any of them but think it's a neat idea, how would you go about working them in?

I think that conceptually it can create a good sense of unease, as well as give something for the occult dorks to chew on. I think it works best as a minor thing on the fringe of your society. Small, "minor", but dangerous due to how poorly understood by you they are. Requiem's pseudo-vampires are my favorite take on this. They cover everything from folklore accurate creatures to weirdo out there concepts. I'd love to incorporate them into my table's weird oWoD-nWoD mash-up setting.

Where I think the concept can fail is if it turns into a dick-measuring contest or becomes a creature mutually exclusive to the main splat. Because then you're actively limiting what can be done with the concept, rather than enhancing the experience. "I'm you but better" is just boring, having different strengths and weaknesses is far more engaging.

>>96085127
There's always the Pheonix who's whole gimmick is being a mediocre totem you can add as a second totem. No idea why she is the one Gaian spirit who consistently manages to establish a thruple tho.

>>96085325
One of those exceptional cases, yeah. The Phoenix's deal is that it patronises the designated protagonist pack with all appropriate rites and accolades. Something you give your players so they feel less schmucks and more story-book heroes once they rack up enough renown.

Mind you, you can let a player have more than one Totem without any printed excuse sometimes; but their Totem is their identity, if they don't have a good story leading up to it, if they don't embody two Totems' agendas to their own detriment and story's improvement and just want to the benefits, they aren't worthy of such favour.

>>96083947
nobody is gonna be made at you for knowing who caine is, but sharing a gehenna prophesy can lead to hardestadt sending his own childe with 7 archons and flamethrowers

this was actually jan's main job before the clan novels force him to focus more on the sect war

in general they don't seem to like anything that claims that there is something about the princes and the inner circle and that their beloved status quo is damned to end someday

Your Chronicle now has an obligatory beach episode.
What happens?

>>96085266
Wan Kuei are more interesting and more flexible, in story terms, than Cainites or Risen, but suffer from being shoehorned in the East Asian Cainite slot and saddled with limitations thereof when they needed to be a full fledged global line. Setites can be replaced with pre-Revised mummies (in their Egyptian role) and infernalists (in their corrupter and purveyor role).

Gargoyles work better as an elemental altogether distinct from vampires, if still territorial and fiercely protective of their favourite piece of architectural art or sorcerous master. Elementals in general need not work on the Umbrood or Inanimae conventions, but whatever you want at a given moment.

Fallen and Imbued belong to a dumpster when you aren't running them (and normies make better PC than Imbued anyway), even if you borrow some material now and then.

>>96085462
One crackpot will use it as an excuse to deploy his Colossal Kraken again, get in a shooting argument with another (who also has a kraken, but smaller and made of metal) about acceptable methods and practices, and they proceed to fail to murder each other for forty minutes straight while two others ERP and the last player films both events so she can sell recordings later.

>>96085462
>Whole coterie gets dusted
Great.

>>96085041
>under the Union where Totems aren't real?
can't believe that those RDs let EDEs control them, anyways the Computer just told me that I need to build a new server farm in the middle of the woods so I gotta go

>fat bastard
>stripper (female)
>suicidal cop who only recently started showering again
>brain in a jar in a robot powered by ghosts

I don’t see it going well but damn would it be fun.

>>96085462
>>96086069
Meant for

>>96083412
Its a feudal/organised crime system already.
You hold territory on behalf of your boss in return for loyalty and servi e. Youre just adding an explicit kickback to the corvee.
Quite frankly its odd that taxes arent assumed a basic part of the camarilla structure.

>>96086276
Maybe some Camarilla chapters extract corvée-esque boon-based dues rather than monetary taxes?

>>96086276
If anything, we're reaching here a point where the comparison between the Camarilla and organized crime shows its limits. The camarilla isn't interested in accruing capital in anf off itself - at best it's a mean.
Ultimately, the point is /control/, and the local, say, nosferatu, that makes no money but has a steady hand on local workers institutions is a lot more valuable than the rich toreador fop that can't do anything but spend.

>>96084520
My ST uses a wiki that one of my fellow players knocked together for him.

>>96085462
The chronicle I played in took place in a coastal city, so we had beach episodes all the time. The incident that sticks out in my mind most was seeing a young boy (who turned out to be bane possessed) playing on the rotting carcass of a beached whale.

>>96086366
All princes do. That's you getting summoned to elysium to fix whatever issue he has. Any chronicle with a prince "quest giver" is essentially corvee.

>>96086069
What game? I have to know

Does anyone actually use path of technomancy?

>>96085609
And then the garou nation wonders why the Weaver loves the spastic anxiety monkeys so much.

>>96087349
Sporadically.
The problem, like it is with many other paths, is that it's too niche, overpriced and underpowered unless you're running a cyberpunk chronicle (in which it becomes pretty good, if still not exceptional).

Your party wakes up in a 10 foot tall cylindrical and completely featureless room with no windows and a large metallic door. You hear Vristania's voice echo through the door's peep hole ''Finally, the main courses have awakened. He hates it when they're not feisty.'' She audibly presses a button with her chubby oedematous finger. A small compartment hidden in the wall behind the party opens and a large disgusting slop of flesh starts slowly gliding towards the party. It's a iecur (stats in pic related).

How would your party survive?

>>96087572
>The problem, like it is with many other paths, is that it's too niche
Which is why it's so funny when STs sperg out about how "overpowered" thaumaturgy is, completely oblivious to the fact you need to spend Methusela levels of XP to get to the level they imagine every thaumaturge at.

>>96087349
>Does anyone actually use path of technomancy?
No one gives a shit about cyber security in vampire because that kind of shit is better off hand waved. No one wants to actually go to realistic lengths to maintain the masquerade.

>>96087678
>that kind of shit is better off hand waved
Depends on the story and ST.
I like to enforce the hell out of technology and camera tech.

>>96087664
Weirdly enough my group had a similar encounter last session. Yeah that thing is going down with a Molotov cocktail and and few rifle shots for good measure.

>>96087706
It can be fun but in my experience it only adds a detour where they go to the local computer responsible for the security footage and brick it if they missed any cameras beforehand.

>>96087664
Walk through wall. Set Virstania on fire if in a bad mood, tell her to learn to read the note on the iceroom next time otherwise.

Etherstone Larloch before he can run and tattle to Etrius and shut down gardening department for good so his necrophilia department gets more room and funding.

>>96087168
Demon

>>96087664
>Embraces mortals to make food
Why doesn't she just feed it animals? I seriously doubt these things All have the curse of methusela's thirst.

>>96088131
A portion of meat it eats has to be cainite flesh or else it can't survive.

>>96088144
>or else it can't survive
As in it goes into torpor or it actually full-on dies? IF it's the latter, what's the point of trying to keep these things alive? Seems like more of a hassle than it's worth for what's effectively a walking pig-pen.

>>96088177
Unclear what happens it if doesn't eat vampires for prolonged periods. Probably torpor.
>what's the point of trying to keep these things alive?
No real reason imo. Regular gargoyles would be far more effective at any task really.

>>96088177
They're made from left-overs, and serve no real purpose other than garbage disposal traps (they're ravenously hungry for flesh of their source material clans). Virstania is just too attached to let them die.

>>96088245
>Don't even need to eat the vampire, they just need vitae
Virstania is definitely an idiot. She could literally just feed them normal meat laced with some of her own vitae to get the same results.

>>96088245
It seems they only need meat in general and react to non-cainite meat the way cainites react to animal blood, by becoming lethargic and prone to frenzy.
The fact the full-on final-die without raw meat is a serious design flaw though.

>>96088358
>>96088384
It's fundamentally suboptimal for everything because it's made from cast off garbage, and it also fundamentally needs to eat a lot because it's made out of digestive organs.

WoDg - Virstania edition
I don't mind actually since the lore is interesting, but my God, she really is a Tzimisce in all but name. Don't teach her Viccissitude.

>>96088426
>I don't mind actually since the lore is interesting, but my God, she really is a Tzimisce in all but name. Don't teach her Viccissitude
She made her own Vicissitude LMAO. Genuinely more versatile aside from inability to use it on herself, and waaay more fucked up.

>>96085609
>>96087512

Hey man it boosts our 6G towers to a whole another level out there for field op's against the RD's. Lets throw up an extra 3 more every 5 miles.

>>96088426
The Tremere are Tzimisce through-and-through. Do you think it was just a coincidence that the Tremere made themselves so that one of their Clan Disciplines is the most fluid form of Blood Sorcery in existence? They took the concept of Vicissitude and applied it to Hedge Magic

>>96088426
Imagine what she would be up to if she had been embraced by a Voivode... By the way, how come the Tzimisce don't have Vicissitude anymore in V5?

>>96088476
When they condensed the Disciplines Vicissitude got shoved into Protean

>>96088463
>They took the concept of Vicissitude
*koldunism
They adapted vampiric blood magic to replicate mortal magic when making thaumaturgy, vicissitude had nothing to do with it.

>>96088476
>how come the Tzimisce don't have Vicissitude anymore in V5?
They do, as an "amalgam" of protean, but really it's because the writers didn't want to make variant powers for all 20 bloodline disciplines. Not sure how they didn't realize that making disciplines function like arcanoi was stupid and unnecessary along the way, but here we are.

>>96088497
>Koldunism
Wrong. Koldunism is based entirely around chiminage with spirits, Thaumaturgy is about utilizing the potency of the blood in combination with occult symbolism. They're fundamentally different forms of Blood Sorcery.

>>96088497
>>96088463
They adapted hermetic philosophy to vampiric disciplines.

>>96088426
Kek. I accidentally started it because I wanted to shitpost about Goratrix being a sick fuck.

>>96088619
More like Gurotrix.

>>96088525
>20 bloodline disciplines
That exclusive magic negro shit was dumb to begin with. Why the fuck gypsies can make illusions but Malkavians, the hallucinating nutcase clan can't do that? Why balkan refugees can make themselves and others horribly monstrous, but Nosferatu, THE monster clan, can't to that? Why main clans don't get sorceries unique to them, but every shitty snowflake clan that already had an unique discipline does get them in Revised? Why there needed to be clans that are literally (main clan) but (ethnicity x) (exclusive superpower y)?

>>96088314
She's a raid boss of a cat lady. She overfeeds her pets because she can't get their attention otherwise.

>>96088738
I love how Vampire is the complete opposite of Mage in this regard
>Tradition but ethnicity x, can't use 1/3 of the Spheres, because they just can't ... okay
>ethnicity exclusive group, but their paradigm is utter dogshit and almost always vulgar, horrendously awful rotes
>Hermetic House in Ex Misc from Revised. Specialty: Underwater Basketweaving. Total amount of mages: 4

>>96088821
Yeah, ethnic = more limited makes more sense.

You get to feel more special, but you ought not gain a mechanical advantage over normal players with it.

Is the Riding the Wave fighting style worth buying up in full?

https://whitewolf.fandom.com/wiki/Valenko_Dmiritav
For me it's this guy.

>>96088918
>Tzimisce, get Vis 4
>Turn into Zulo
>Get Potence, Celerity
>Ride the wave
>Destroy Garou, Gargoyles and anything in your path
What's stopping you from becoming a death machine?

>>96089254
Requiem, not Masquerade.

We need to answer the really important questions Did Goratrix's dick grow back?

>>96089163
>trusted not just a leech, but tzimiskes
retard
>got the leech killed immediately after betrayal
but a based one

>>96089321
Yes, but Etrius cursed him to remain impotent.

>>96089361
The Fat Swede strikes again!

So what spheres would a Mage need to undo ghouling?

>>96089461
If you ignore BT/M20 idiocy healing/purging is Life 2 for yourself and Life 3 for others.
I call four or five successes needed.

>>96089461
closest thing I could find in Blood Treachery is breaking the blood bond. Btw yes this is on the same page as the infamous Revenant meltdown.

>>96089568
You'd probably need Prime too, since vitae is magic metaphysical meme blood and is just another form of quint.

>>96089568
>>96089589
>Make an OP splat
>Get mad when the OP splat can theoretically handwave the mechanics of your beloved personal horror splat
>Try to restrain the OP splat out of spite

>>96089461
>>96089622
Ghoul book, which is the primary authority on ghouls, says this.

Hey I'm just wrapping up Diablerie Mexico, and it seems like the Camarilla Coterie is going to go ahead, and do it. Are there any good Sabbat, Anarch, or modules set in a remote location that anyone could recommend?

>>96089785
Have you checked Storyteller's Handbook to the Sabbat and the rest of Diablerie series?
There's an adventure template in every remote sourcebook like Hong Kong usually as well.

>>96085462
Well right now my players are in the middle of medieval scotland, so I doubt there'd be much fun in the sun. As a player, we're in a landlocked state in 1816, so even if we were magically teleported to a beach I doubt we'd be able to engage in typical beach shenanigans. Too many cultural differences between now and then.

To not be a total killjoy, we did have a kinda beach episode in VtM way back when. An Archon we didn't know was an Archon at the time roped us into helping him deal with a masquerade breach. Sabbat dickheads in Maryland had somehow embraced a wereshark and now it was in the Chesapeake Bay in a perma-frenzy. It sunk the boat we were in and almost final death'd the Lasombra Antitribu but we took it out. Got to spend a bit of time on the beach, though that was mostly the Lasombra and Nosferatu arguing while the Ventrue dramatically stood in the surf.

>>96089785
>>96089871
>Hong Kong
If you plan to head west, Los Angeles by Night and Anarch Free states in general might be a decent stop as well.

>>96088918
I'd say yes, you already need high will to get it and the fourth dot means you can spend will like a madman at no cost. At that point the fifth dot is just further oomph.

If you want to be a real shithead, also pick up kino mutai 1 from hurt locker, it improves your bite's damage mod.

>>96088525
>Not sure how they didn't realize...

Anon you know damn well that V5 and its ilk are obsessed with narrowing down everything to a single play experience without any variation. With the other games crushed and mutilated to fit Vampire's play style.

>>96089461
the based answer is using time to fast forward until all the vitae is gone and life to keep them alive during the process. just straight up make that bitch live through a month or 4 in the blink of an eye!

>>96088918
It's only worthwhile if you go up to the fourth dot or higher. Otherwise it's way too expensive considering what you get out of it.

>>96089946
>>96090205
What about combining it with Kindred Fighting? Too ambitious? Actually, any other complimentary styles for a Melee (now Brawl) build?

>>96090191
If mage had Time good enough to fast forward 4 months why was he ghouled in the first place?

>>96090469
I don't think the mage is the one ghouled in this scenario

>>96090454
When you say combine it with Kindred fighting, do you mean using the hurt locker rules for converting melee styles to brawl and vice versa? Or just having a weapon ready for when you ride the wave?

>>96090557
The latter, but I'm interested in hearing about the former now that you've mentioned it.

>>96085462
The workaholics would bring their servants along for some R&R to keep morale up, but would be working blades or papers throughout the trip

>>96085462
Considering we are all baby we-wolves. I think alot of Meits and sex? Maybe some rape, Nah def some rape.

WtA question, the whole 3W imballance situation, is that an entirely earth centric thing? Or is it cosmic like?

>>96090726
pretty sure its cosmic. Considering it fucks up you know, the umbra/ect

>>96088527
>Koldunism is based entirely around chiminage with spirits
There are 2 flavors of koldunism anon. Spiritual and Demonic.
The spiritual koldunism was re-written as the Kraina in DAV20 to better differentiate it, but demonic koldunism was the precursor to thaumaturgy.

>>96088738
>That exclusive magic negro shit was dumb to begin with
I disagree, because it gives you a good reason to go out an conquer magic negros to take their stuff. It rewards players for exploring the game and finding secrets.

>>96090576
Hurt Locker in general has a lot of interesting styles, it's in the MEGA, Chronicles of Darkness. TL;DR you have to spend double exp but with ST approval can cross over fighting styles.

Brawl suggestions
>Body as Weapon is decent and cheap, might work well depending on how your ST interprets it (does a bite count as an "unarmed strike")
>Martial Arts and Street Fighting are always decent.
>Iron Skin is broken on a vampire since it gives you armor against bashing damage and vampires take bashing from most things.
>Anything grappling gets silly quickly and when in frenzy you can bite and grapple in a single action
>Unarmed Defense 1 is a great investment if you want to go full brawl and expect to be fighting brawlers
>Boxing has no synergy with your biting approach at all, but is just all around an amazing brawling style

Weaonry suggestions (if you're looking at Kindred Dueling, I'll assume you're planning on using a sword or similar bladed weapon, so I'll stick to styles that work with that)
>Armed Defense is very specific but busted in that context. Can disarm multiple attackers while inflicting damage to them in a dodge.
>Heavy Weapons is great for high strength, low defense characters.
>Light Weapons has a great interaction with celerity (feint on your turn, then attack with the bonus as a celerity react)
>Disabling Tactics is amazing and easy to get. First dot basically negates called shot penalties for legs and arms. If you knock someone down you can blow will to keep their ass down for the rest of the fight and conditionally multi-attack. (this one is hidden away in Dark Eras)

>>96090726
No one knows, except maybe the void engineers. They're the only ones who've seen life on other planets and how magic works there.

>>96090726
Wyrm-Weaver-Wyld are mostly just a middle umbra thing like most spirits and can sometimes be in the deep* umbra. the low umbra has it's own thing (Oblivion) and the high umbra has... something, probably demons*? now while these might be wyrmish they are not actually related to the Wyrm in any way beyond wanting destruction and death, kinda like how dumping crude oil in a lake is wyrmish but doesn't mean the guy doing it is literally a servant of the wyrm and not just some cunt that is dumping crude oil in the lake.


*parts of the deep umbra connected to the middle umbra (Malfeas for example)
*demon in this case means a high umbral entity that takes the form of what people imagine demons are. they have no relation at all with the Fallen

>>96090851
Bearing in mind that VEs would describe most spirit realms that way.

>>96090851
yeah but space works different in mage then in werewolf so their answer might not make sense for each other

most people don't know this but like actual physical non-umbral planets exists outside the solar system, it's just that the gauntlet is at 0 so there is no barrier between the umbra and the material world anymore

>>96091116
>the high umbra has... something
The dreaming, especially nightmare realms. Evil and horror are as much a source of glamour as wonder, it's just about inspiring people's imaginations.

>>96091185
in werewolf books yes, in mage book no

>>96091341
The mage books do agree in the convention books... and then disagree in the tradition and umbra books.
Mage should never be taken seriously when it comes to cosmology, it disagrees with ITSELF(and that's a core theme)

>>96090726
Earth-centric Middle Umbra spirits that are tangentially related to the Metaphysical Trinity but are nothing more than extremely powerful spirits if you are playing Mage the Ascension.
Cosmic deities of transcendent importance who govern every aspect of existence on every level of existence if you are playing Werewolf the Apocalypse.

If you are playing Mage the Ascension, the Wyrm is nothing more than one of the many potential cosmic evils that a Nephandi madman might worship. If you are playing Werewolf the Apocalypse, the Wyrm is the one true evil.

>>96091411
makes sense when you think about that if you are on an planet at the other side of the galaxy then the entire consensus consists of only you so it would immediately start warping reality to fit your paradigm

>>96091411
Mage books generally agree on that outlook though? From Masters of the Arts to ToJ to the very first Umbral book, Book of Worlds.
Hell, Mages knew where to find The Triat for decades and there is literally a Tradition Mage describing a star while talking about the Cop.

>>96091808
>Hell, Mages knew where to find The Triat
Shenti or the Triatic Realms are incredibly large and inhospitable, "finding the Triat" in them is very difficult and almost guaranteed to end in death based on descriptions of these realms, even in Mage the Ascension where the Triat are just particularly powerful spirits rather than the three governing forces of existence.

>>96091895
Nta but Malfeas is literally an hell kingdom with named territories. Fucking hell they even offer services to the visitors and the Central Duchy is obvious.

>>96091955
What kind of services?

>>96091985
Go home, Aliara, you're slumming too hard here. The fruit is too low to pick. It is already rotting on the ground.

>>96091985
Yikes, this agent needs to set up an appointment with the Progenitors ASAP.

Post your face when there are people IN THIS THREAD who play ugly vampires (other than nosferatu).

>>96082921
>I actually considered that Pentex might've "resurrected" the were-wasps by experimenting on a group of captured Ants
My first thought would be recreating the ellen ripley experience with these things as the base: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhO5zDcJ1B0

>>96092194
But I'm Apperance 2 irl

>>96092238
The Blood makes everybody better looking.
Except those who are unworthy.

Do metis have any restrictions on how high their Appearance stat can go?

>>96090828
Dealing with demons is still spirit chiminage, they're just corruptive spirits

>>96092285
I don't think so, Just you know... need to take deformnations

>>96092462
Internal counts, load up on derangements!

>>96092290
Anon, Demonic kolduns deal with actual demons, as in Fallen and Earthbound, not high-umbra spirits in edgy roleplay.

>>96092540
That's still spirit chiminage

>>96092158
-10 goodboy points for (you)

>>96092545
Demons don't do chinimage, they do Pacts. Both Spirits and Demons would kill you for getting them confused.

>>96092231
WTF is Wrong with Australia?!?

>>96092568
Anon my point is that Koldunism is fundamentally a Blood Sorcery based on dealing with ephemera to receive magical effect. It is a fundamentally different kind of Blood Magic from Thaumaturgy

>>96090828
>but demonic koldunism was the precursor to thaumaturgy.
Lies and slander.

>>96092581
There's like a dozen kinds of tarantula hawk native to New Mexico and they aren't much different from eachother except they target different spiders, they all have stings compared to getting shot. It's not a big deal.

Can Nagaraja get Viscus from animals, just like normal vampires don't strictly need to get their Vitae from humans?

>>96092587
Anon, tremere's own book talks about them calling on thor to make path of levinbolt work. They still engage in all the spiritual aspects of magic, they just do it scientifically.

>Be Wraith
>Some Bloodsucker is leeching onto your fetter (unrequited crush)
>Follow him back to his haven
>Skinride him while he’s daysleeping and walk him into the sunlight
gg ez

What's a good place for finding unified oWoD lore? For clearing up Apep and Wyrm, Pentex and Pentad and Earthbound, red stars, what groups know about the same thing...?

>>96093081
lol. lmao even

>>96093050

How difficult do you think siccing the Ventrue on Pentex would be?

Between the search for Secret Masters, the fact that everyone hates those who bargain with demonic spirits, the clan unity and their control over so many businesses... it feels like an interesting conflict.

But it also feels like getting the Ventrue to act would be far easier said than done.

>>96093081
Lmao, Lol even.

Those aren't real.

>>96093081
That's not how oWoD works. You need to decide which game is your principal cosmology, and then work from there. If it's Mage, all the answers would be very different than if it were Werewolf or Vampire.

Mage might be your best shot at a unified cosmos, but getting there via that lore set makes everything feel less intense and more generic. Too many gods/demons/ultimate evils. The Wyrm is just another huge cosmic horror among many, even if it is a corrupted middle-umbral manifestation of the entropic end of the metaphysic trinity, etc.

>>96093050
Fucking cuck being jelly even after death.

Were vampires a thing when the Fallen still walked the earth or did that only happen after Babel fell?

>>96093081
I have bad news and good news, anon. The bad news is that what you're looking for doesn't exist. The good news is that you can just DIY it and ignore everything you don't like about any given system and splat

>>96093153
There's Ventrue on the Pentex board of directors. I think their desire for capital and all it entails overrides anything else, regarding Pentex

>>96093171
>You need to decide which game is your principal cosmology
This is not how this works. The splats make it clear that even when you're only doing a one splat game, Every splat is wrong about the wider cosmology. There is no dominant cosmology, only different schizos with walls covered in newspaper clippings and string trying to figure out wtf is going on.
This is on purpose. The wider cosmology doesn't matter in most games and it gives you enough lies, red herrings, secrets, and mindfucks to let players come to their own conclusions. The players characters should sound like schizophrenics by the end of the campaign.

>>96093171
>That's not how oWoD works. You need to decide which game is your principal cosmology, and then work from there.
I knew there was flexibility of interpretation, but maybe I was treating it too much like a puzzle then.

So then there's no answer about, say, if the Wyrm has any connection to the other corruptive snake of Apep or if either have anything to do with the other force of annihilation that is Oblivion, then? It's just whatever ST decides on their own?

Probably overthought it then, maybe due to setites and mummies and fera, or Giovanni and wraiths, or something.

>>96093226
Not that anon, but more or less ya. Thats how it goes.

>>96093206
>There's Ventrue on the Pentex board of directors.
There is? I had heard of a Malkavian antitribu and a Giovanni that was meant to take over for the family but got corrupted by the Wyrm right after joining, but I hadn't heard anything about Camarilla influence.

>>96093171
I like to think every splat is true but nothing they say is correct. Not in full. It’s like the Technocracy realizing reality is fundamentally malleable, and almost almost getting it right, but falling back on Science and not realizing that no it’s actually magic and the fundamental power of God or a God-like being which created humanity and gave them the Divine Spark. That it is their own belief in science which is making them kind of miss the forest for the trees. Or how Caine is probably real but nobody knows who or what he actually is (except maybe the Fallen, but then, what if they’re just a victim of Human Consensus too? What if their entire backstory is entirely because of humans creating a tulpa the same way the deep umbra has demon-like entities that are fae-related)

And also to a certain extent it almost doesn’t matter, because regardless of how people understand it, being right or wrong, the fundamental forces by which the world exists and interacts works. It just works. And peeling back the layer to see how or why it works doesn’t actually fix anything, either. Simultaneously you can have evolution and 6 days to create. Simultaneously you can have a world with an absent God or a Dead God, or a Deus Ex Machina of an endless repeating Cycle. The Nephandi could be right, or they could just be a boogeyman that doesn’t really exist, and they can be both things at the same time. How the sausage is made is almost irrelevant, pretty much unless you’re doing a Mage game and a high level one at that

>>96093251
His a Ventrue, His not so much Camarilla.

>>96091955
Most forms of entering Malfeas deposit the visitor at the Central Duchy, for the same reason as the offering of services, to better enable the corruption of the poor idiot who just arrived at Malfeas. That doesn't change the fact that the vast majority of the realm is described as an ever-growing and ever-changing hyper-dimensional labyrinth that is impossible to map. These named landmarks are only so easy to find because they are centres of conversion and torture that exist to either warp the visitor into a Malfean minion or trap them in an endless nightmare of suffering.

>>96093251
Took my copy of Monkeywrench off the shelf, and I believe you're right. I got confused because of a handout I got once

>>96093206
>There's Ventrue on the Pentex board of directors.

Post proof, because I have never heard of this.

>>96086419
You can spend the rich Toreador fop's money on the Nosferatu to give him better control. Micro management isn't beyond most princes.

>>96093333
Don't know about venture, but there are a malk and was a giovanni on it.(Harold Zettler and Enzo Giovanni)

>>96093251
!Malk in question

>>96093153
This actually happened at my table. Basically, we stumbled upon them while investigating a rumor the Gangrel primogen heard from an unusually alone and cordial werewolf. Pentex, a BSD Pack, and some over Wyrm worshipping Setites were creating living bane factories called gardens, designed to produce a new strain of bane that spreads like a disease. Vampires couldn't be infected but we could become asymptomatic carriers. My character, a Ventrue ended up investigating a minor Pentex subsidiary called Cronus Biotech. They figured her out pretty quickly but hit the CEO with a reverse uno dominate and stole a shitload of Pentex data, having to jump out a skycraper window to avoid being captured or final death'd by a very Resident Evil Tyrant Fomorarch.

Things escalated from there, she kicked all the information up the chain of command and now the Ephorate knows what Pentex is. Both sides have too many other enemies and benefit from many of the same things to engage in open conflict, but the peerage has been chipping away at them ever since.

>>96093360
>Harold Zettler
Don't forget his childe Persephone Tar-Anis

>>96093369
Based

>>96092194
>mfw there are people that don't start with a Tzimisce in the coterie so he can give them appearance 5 later in the chronicle at 0XP cost

>>96093380
>Tzimisce in the coterie

>>96093393

>>96093393
Whats wrong anon? Scared of healers?

>>96093380
>Tzimisce

>>96093398
>healers
Viss isn't good at healing, you want a Salubri for that anon.

>>96093398
>MFW my Tzimisce buddy turns me into a living art piece after a century of friendship

>>96093423
Mended flesh is mended flesh. Arm sliced off? Just put it back on, good as new.

>>96093430
You're already a living art piece

>>96083349
>actually keeping track of players income taxes
This anon is a ventrue irl.

>>96093211
>>96093256
But on a practical level as readers learning about the setting, there is no unified source of information and it needs to be understood that the smoothest way of learning about the game and playing it, is to choose a particular splat and go with that splat's interpretation of the setting, even if you're playing a crossover game. Trying to put together a unified version of the World of Darkness that gives every splat fair and equal consideration is an exercise in futility.

>>96093226
SPECIFICALLY Apep might be Gorool, who is one of the Neverborn, and is an incarnation of the hunger of Oblivion, which happens to take the form of an incomprehensibly large sea-serpent/dragon monster thing. So it might be an ASPECT of the Wyrm... Or the Wyrm might be an aspect of it. It depends on which sort of game you're running. Unless it's Werewolf, the ultimate answer is probably irrelevant.

The giant cross-over game tends to favor some really wierd answers. But I do prefer the response of shrugging and just saying "Well, your character can believe whatever they want, absent of an ability to get a true answer."

If you're using the Earthbound at all, for example, your answer is already set in stone.

So it does sort of come down to what story you want to tell, and there's not a real puzzle, just a bunch of winking-and-nodding happening.

There ARE some parallels in the eastern setting books, but largely those should be avoided.

>>96093454
>Trying to put together a unified version of the World of Darkness that gives every splat fair and equal consideration is an exercise in futility.
This is just wrong, because it's easy as hell. Just do this: They are all very, Very wrong.
You don't need a "right" answer, because the players will independently come up with their own wild theories if you give them just enough info to run with.

>>96093454
This is the way. As someone who has been running oWoD for decades over multiple editions and many different cross-overs.

Werewolf and Vampire are, shockingly, largely compatible with a few tweaks because vampires generally have nothing to do with animistic spirits.

I said generally, people. Stop staring at me with your Kolduns and your Arihmanes.

The Abyss Mystics can keep staring, they're cool.

>>96093454
In my experience, you don't need a dominant splat at all, with one exception: Mage.
Every other splat can work together in crossover just fine, thematic elements even hold up, but Mage can't do that. Mage has to either dominate or be dominated, no exceptions.

>>96093484
God I wish I got to fuck around with the Abyss Mystics more often.

>>96093468
>your answer is already set in stone.
Why do people keep ignoring the big cntribution of DtF: the multilayered reality thing. Demons can literally exist seamlessly in the same setting as creatures that disprove the existence of Big G, because you can just say they came from different reality layers before the universe went to Crap and collapsed into one thing. All origins can absolutely be true at the same time in Demon cosmology.

>>96093480
Okay then, what source can a player go to to learn about this unified setting where everyone is very wrong, in order to best put together a campaign using all of the setting's material from every source within the World of Darkness?
>You fool, you madman! No one is right, everyone is wrong! You should feel schizophrenic playing this game! There is no objective truth, nothing is real, but everything is real! Up is down, except when you want it to be! There is no spoon, except for when there is! Learning the setting should be like putting together a jigsaw puzzle that spits in your mouth, punches your balls and explodes apart when you're half-way through completing it!
Sorry, that might be fun to play when exploring the setting through the eyes of a character, but when people are trying to learn about the setting, perhaps for the purpose of running their own game, this Brucato-style topsy-turvy schizophrenia way of handling the setting makes it even harder to actually learn about the World of Darkness than it already is.

>>96093484
Just as long as you toss out Noddism. Then, though, it wasn't doing V:tM any favors as a de facto canonical fact in the first place.

>>96093081
>Clearing up Apep and the Wyrm

That one's probably the most straight-forward. If Apep is personable and understandable, it's cosmologically smaller than the Wyrm. The Wyrm is a third of reality. Its crises of identity and inner doubts are vast beings unto themselves.

>Pentex and Pentad
That one's also pretty easy, sort of. The Pentad of Demon are probably unrelated. Like, completely and totally. Demon had no overlap with Werewolf. Elohim don't even treat the Umbra as if it exists.

>Red Stars
You only need one. It can be a sign universally recognized by even the least acute that something serious and big is going on.

>What groups know the same thing
Not many. The Egyptian splats across various games have a history of shared notes, but still disagree. Asia has something somewhat similar going on, but it breaks up around India. After that, everyone starts getting really distant from each other. This was done to concentrate on specific flavors of game, so that vampires don't need to deal with werewolves bringing along a genre shift into splatter horror when they show up (and resulting in a lot of vampires torn apart like plasticine SFX puppets, with much wailing and gnashing of pointy teeth).

>>96093535
>Okay then, what source can a player go to to learn about this unified setting where everyone is very wrong
There is no "unified setting" that's what I'm trying to say. The setting isn't unified or consistent even when sticking to one splat. The "right" answer is always just whatever the ST made up for that specific campaign and will change from story-to-story.
WoD is literally a multiple choice "build-a-setting" kit.

>>96093530
You're right that I should have addressed this in the post mentioning this.

It's sort of an annoying meta answer, though. Because big G is still big G. He's still the supreme truth that existed before any of the other things. They might ALSO exist (which is actually how Werewolf and Vampire cross over well, just the other way around), but they're pale nothing compared to the supreme deity. Who is definitively absent and not taking calls. Heaven is missing, Angels most certainly DO NOT walk among us.

Demon is about a false polytheism where the real God has fucked off. That doesn't mesh very well with any of the other lines except the one its literally tailor made to cross over with. Hunter: the Reckoning.

Yes, you CAN have your cross overs with all your character types explained, but you're still doing that thing where you're just saying "G-d did it" and it's vampire but bleaker.

>>96093557
>Demon had no overlap with Werewolf.
The never-before-seen "malakim" that jumped them out of nowhere during the war of rage were implied to be the fera. How the got into the DtF universe is an open question.

>>96093559
>Trying to put together a unified version of the World of Darkness that gives every splat fair and equal consideration is an exercise in futility.
>This is just wrong, because it's easy as hell.
>Okay then, what source can a player go to to learn about this unified setting where everyone is very wrong?
>There is no "unified setting" that's what I'm trying to say.
So it's easy as hell to unify the World of Darkness, but at the same time, the setting isn't unified or consistent even when sticking to one splat, which seems to be a statement that agrees with the original statement that putting together a unified setting is an exercise in futility.
Again, "the right answer is whatever the ST wants it to be," is not helpful to people looking to learn about the World of Darkness and its setting. The whole "characters should sound schizophrenic by the end of a game" shtick sounds cool and flavourful, but it's shit at telling actual people and prospective STs how to explore and understand the setting.

>>96093570
>Because big G is still big G.
Even in the DtF corebook this isn't consistent. Religions other than the abrahamic faiths were able to take the powers of true faith that took down the original 666 and earthbound would steal the names of already existing gods in most cases.

>>96093572

Malakim
>Garou and Fera

But are they really? Do we have much that's solid to go on, there? Because it seems to be opening the door to "Actually the demons don't know what's up after all".

In which case they would be in good company.

>>96093581
>So it's easy as hell to unify the World of Darkness
No, it's easy as hell to play a game where no one splat has complete dominance in the cosmology.

>>96093581
I think anon is trying to say unifying the gamelines is completely unnecessary to play the actual game. I think its an exercise in futility in the first place.

I have decided, after much deliberation, that the easist game to make a unified cosmology is Changeling: the Dreaming.

I'm sorry, that was low, even for me.

>>96093585
Yes, but the game goes out of the way to say "The Jewish mythos is largely correct on basic narrative in a general sense"

>>96093591
It's easy to play, yes. It is not easy to put one together for actual people to learn about so they can understand how all of the different splats intersect.
>>96093601
He's looking at this exclusively from the perspective of an ST talking to his players about his own chronicle, when >>96093081 is a human looking for more information about the setting, not a player in his chronicle. He is looking for unified lore and when people try to explain that there is no unified lore, this guy comes along waxing lyrical about how the game should be played and how crazy characters should sound, when we're talking about learning the lore as real people, not playing characters in the game.

>>96093629
At least until Devil's due, then the story changed to say the catholic christian version was more right. Crazy how they happen to align with the majority opinion of infernalists at the time...

>>96093635
>for actual people to learn about so they can understand how all of the different splats intersect.
Anon, nobody knows the full extent of how they intersect. No even the writers. The only thing you'll be sharing is headcanon.

>>96093642
Which is the point that was being made in the first place and what people were trying to explain to the guy, hence the poetic "nothing is real, but everything is real" blustering of >>96093211 and >>96093256 is pointless and doesn't contribute anything to the conversation.

>>96093642
And as long as our friend and his players enjoy that headcannon for that chronicle, all things are as they should be.

Making the pieces fit your universe is much more fun than trying to figure out how to make your universe fit the pieces.

>>96093642
The writers intentionally swerved around in different directions to make it as difficult as possible. Source: Podcasts from back when WW was a part of CCP,roughly a decade and a half ago.

>>96093747
>Why yes, we launched a game series called World of Darkness
>No, of course we didn't try to make it fit together or be remotely functional as an actual WORLD of Darkness
>In fact, we went out of our way to make it work together less

>>96093615
No, no, you're right

>>96093756
Well, I mean, it was low of me because it's just part of my plan to get people to learn about Changeling, the darkest game in WoD aside from people actually playing Wraith as written.

>>96092194
>Post your face when there are people IN THIS THREAD who play ugly vampires (other than nosferatu).
I have never seen a ST or player give a shit about the Apperance stat.

>>96093615
>I have decided, after much deliberation, that the easist game to make a unified cosmology is Changeling: the Dreaming.
At that point just let it burn.

>>96093768
Did you know you can actually sue for emotional damages if someone makes you play Wraith as intended

>>96093784
My GM said I can't play in Wraith when the table gets too it, I'd ruin too many friendships.

>>96093010
Nope, their curse is strictly about having to eat human meat

>>96093864
>>96093010
You reckon Nagaraja could eat the flesh of living supernaturals? Regenerating shapeshifter jerky maybe?

>>96093863
I'm also not allowed to Shadowguide. It's for the best.

>>96089871
I wasn't aware there was a series. The sample stories from that book are more like a short story than a proper module. I was looking for something with y'know, maps, branching paths. "If they burn down the wax museum this happens, if they bribe Waxy Willy he knows this" ect.

>>96089934
When I say remote, I mean a adventure taking place outside of a urban center where someone could easily go "Hm they just ate someone, better kill them."

>>96093769
I mean, I've had it rolled for first impressions, getting into a club, rushing past the police pretending you didn't just cause the disaster. Any social roll where it's a look instead of what they're saying.

>>96093355
Opening several cans of worms here. For the sake of conversation:
First, I'd say there's very little trust between vampires playing the game at any level above nose-on-the-ground-floor. Your turf is your turf and you generally don't want others to exert any form of influence over it. And the less they know about how you operate the better.
Add to that, the prince can more-or-less order/bribe/cajole you to use your influence for the good of the sect, but unless the situation is very dire (whether danger to the sect or Prince in full, undisputed autocratic mode) he generally has a much harder time in ordering you on how to use your own resources to do that.
Another thing to take into account, the boon economy can suffer if the prince starts moving around boon-worthy services with no payback. Court with strong harpies can become hell fast.

>>96093969
Bro, not the fucking Yakult machine!

>>96080231 (OP)
How would you mechanically roll for spitting power? The Archerfish rapidly opens and closes its gills to generate pressure through a narrow tunnel it makes with its tongue. Is that Strength? Athletics? Stamina? Dexterity?

>>96094130
Strength + Athletics.

>>96094171
Wrong webm.

>>96085462
I lament that Ra's light does extra aggravated damage to me, ruining my chance to entice impressionable beach kids into joining my cult. Not to mention the money wasted on that bikini.

>>96094203
Just corrupt the dumb kids who come at night.

>>96093251
the giovanni is a bit more, more. Guy was meant to lead the familly into the service of the wyrm and help pentex with the fact that wraiths are a bad matchup for most of their stuff, but was killed or something* this has caused pentex to go panic mode because now you have two unalligned evil rich factions that know more about each other than they want outsiders to know and the giovanni are more united than pentex (book of the wyrm) and again wraiths are a bad match up for most of their stuff

*then a harbringer of the skulls or risen shows up and claims to be the very same giovanni

>>96093361
Reminder this dude has been around since the medieval period and invented the Tyranny of the Wyrm Thaumaturgy Path.

>>96085462
Eight girls in swimsuits. One wants to show off but is too busy taking care of the youngest ones. One spends the whole day looking for crabs and other marine life. The rest are somewhat normal except for one fearing sunburns of the non-aggravated kind.
One giganerd is trying to build a sand castle with functional defenses.
One old man spends the day reading somewhere nearby.
Two religious prudes refused to go.
Three slightly less puritan but equally zealous religious guys actually enjoy the day like normal people and force the nerd to play beach volleyball with them.
They fight a mutated possessed giant lobster, maybe.

>>96094264
to try and help slaubri! that didn't worked out, but hey

>>96094171
>>96094187
Many thanks.

>>96094287
I don't think I buy that, his order started at Dark Thaumaturgy and they learned it from a three-headed dragon. Maybe that was what they said to attract sacrifices.

>>96094329
Zmey bogatyr are a thing, maybe that dragon was just a charitable soul trying to bring more good in this World of Darkness

>>96094329
the claim is that he learned dark thaum to try and defang the tremere a bit as to give the salubri some breathing room and personally i could see a low gen malkavian being mad enough to see that as a good idea and i could see wyrm corruption making him forget/not care anymore about that at all too

>>96094264
>>96094329
>Zettler
>Petaniqua

Any other Malkavian Wyrmfags I should know about?

>>96094422
To hear it from Libellus Sanguinus, the Dark Ages clan was 1/3 infernalists.

>>96094422
malkavians had a entire infernalist ordo during the dark age, but there is not much info about what kind of infernalism these guys did however depending how you square the abyss with the wyrm louhi could also count

>>96094469
Sounds about right.

>>96080930
Have him be right but in a way that the PCs hate. Classic example is a Prince who cracks down strictly on even the slightest masquerade breaches making the players hate him and view him as a tyrant, only for their own breaches to come back to bite them in the form of hunters.
If its an external bad guy like a Sabbat leader, have their plans fuck with the remnants of your players mortal lives or their positions in their clan. My own Habringer of Skulls has been pushing Pigment as part of her infiltration and my Brujah player ended up having t try and save her ghouled former best friend from ODing after she tried to escape being a ghoul via the black ice highway.

>>96094651
What would cappadocius think, a childer of his necromancer monks acting like a filthy Setite. Guess that is why he had you locked up in the dungeon

>>96093889
IIRC this came up some time back, similar to how Venture's refined taste don't apply while feeding on other vamps/supernaturals, Nagaraja's don't apply either, they have to eat humans
I don't remember what was the source for this though, don't take my word for it

>>96080930
Give them obfuscate and auspex so they can be spooky. Have them show up out of the blue to haunt and taunt the players

>>96094685
>would cappadocius think
He doesn't think, he was so busy drooling at the idea of diablerising a god that he was usurped by a coach potato.

>>96094702
Nagaraja's curse always has been "must eat HUMAN flesh", never ever a suggestion that they could substitute any other animal, but I see no reason why they wouldn't be able to eat demons or vampires, werecreatures in homid, and mages that are unchanged humans (those that didn't mess with their physiology to turn into animated element, borg or nanite swarm).

>>96094469
They also had the first case of cainite wyrm worshipers

>>96094702
>>96094850
See I was thinking of the Ventrue curse when I pondered that. Ventrue will throw up any mortal blood that doesn't match their type, but they can still drink vampire and other supernatural blood presumably for game balance or else the Ventrue curse would make them immune to being blood bound except in serious edge cases . Ergo, could the Nagaraja eat other supernaturals? Obviously fast healing shapeshifter meat is an exploit (though difficult to execute), but it does make me wonder what edge cases could exist. Especially since the Nagaraja curse is very crippling and excludes them from a lot of games as player characters.

>>96094851
Depends on if you consider Setites to be Wyrm worshipers or not. I'm convinced they are, even if they think they're the opposite.

>>96094850
>nanite swarm
NT makes pretty sweet chassis: shapeshifting with Int+Mimic diff 6, an extra health level, no wound penalties unless you're at your last one (mere -1), regen one health level per turn, potential to ignore bullets and blades, built in diff 6 7 damage blade attack and 4 dice taser, all of that for mere 1 permadox as long as you don't spaz out in front of sleepers.

>>96094888
No, I'm talking explicit wyrm

>>96093654
Bitch you didn’t even read my post don’t come at me like you know what you’re talking about

>>96093755
You’re making a bad faith arguement. The world of darkness is a weird, contradictory, confusing place. By design. The point is to give you things that are real (how it works), facts that are wrong (how a lot of splats explain things or justify them in character that are obviously incorrect, facts that are true but maybe don’t get it completely right (true faith and how various groups interpret it, magic, demons and how most of them probably aren’t demons but you should treat them like one regardless), and big gaping holes that other splats kind of explain but also don’t so you can make each world of dakrness yours. The world of darkness is unified by the fact you get to decide what’s real based on the truths each group believes. Facts can be true (human understanding of magic) without being real (traditions being limited by their paradigms is true, but that’s because they don’t understand reality and what’s real, yet to understand they’re wrong would shatter their ability to do magic in the first place, so isn’t it real even though it’s not? Up to you!)

>>96093755
the be fair back when they actually released owod books titled "world of darkness" most of those problems did not exist yet

>>96095000
No, I'm making a shitpost.

>>96095070
I blow my nose at you and fart in your general direction.

>>96094685
Hanging out in the Sabbat does funny things to someone, plus its all in the good cause of making the Giovanni miserable so I'm sure he won't mind.

>>96091985
How many points for a rimjob?

>>96093969
>I've had it rolled for first impressions, getting into a club, rushing past the police pretending you didn't just cause the disaster. Any social roll where it's a look instead of what they're saying.
You can actually use the stat, I just don't really believe fleshed out enough to be an attribute given how reasonable using Wits or Charisma over it seems in the vast majority of cases.

>>96093769
It's the cap on social dice and there are a shit ton of optional and variant rules attached to it. Depending on how the ST runs it, it's either useless or the single most important social stat in the game(the latter is more accurate to IRL if we're honest).

>>96097005
Wits is a completely irrelevant trait in this. Charisma needs people to be willing to entertain you to begin with.
Even if he isn't disfigured, most people would have nothing but disgust for someone looking like your average CCG player, morbid obesity, dozen of SaVD evident on the skin, stench and grease and all, and those of any influence would order their security to throw him out. That's Appearance 1.

>>96097208
And vice versa, someone naturally being 10/10 would would find persuading people much easier a task.

Exceptions happen, but for the most part your natural Appearance trait should set the difficulty of your social rolls, and whether you get, or need to make them at all.

>>96085462
My vamp shows up in a full-body wetsuit thanks to her crippling anxiety over others seeing her skin; freaking out not only any kine present, but also every other kindred present.
>>96094203
Oh shit it’s been months since I last saw a character from Shrecktnet

>>96097183
You're kidding yourself. Resources guys trade those people as just another currency.

Aside from the Penumbra, the Shadowlands, and the Near Dreaming; are there any other 'tangential planes' which are some kind of reflection of the material world?

>>96097372
Just wear a burqa baka

>>96097394
Resources isn't a social attribute, it's a background.
Backgrounds are arguably more important than any of the supernatural shit.

>>96097494
I actually forgot that those kinds of swimsuits existed, would probably be a better choice

>>96097394
Yeah but they are already established.

>>96097580
Those can't be real

>>96097542
Yeah, but I'm responding to a jokey aside about real life pretty privilege. On its own, it tops out at free doses of Ambien.

>>96097580
>can see a tiny sliver of her feet
WHORE

>>96097622
Welcome to Europe

>>96097622
They are, that one’s on sale for $65. Baggage aside I find it pretty aesthetically pleasing

>>96097648
>it tops out at free doses of Ambien
What does being hot have to do with sleep meds?

>>96097687
No thanks, I hate assasmites and other low clans.

>>96097700
Checked, And 65 dollars for fucking what is a non-water proof looking rain coat? Christ. It really is for the dumbasses

>>96097687
Is it even possible to save western europe at this point? I honestly wonder if letting russia have western europe would be the better option. Eastern europe is based enough to keep their independence though.

Death Battle fag here. How strong is Caine?

>>96097753
He can kill or mind control everyone short of God.

>>96080930
The way I tried is that to establish the antagonist of the Chronicle, I created a neutral NPC (either Vamp or Human if required) and make an excuse that the NPC (which is very liked in the circle of the players) is killed by just interacting to the players. My excuse was that the NPC was a supplier of bagged blood from local bloodbanks and he can feed a lot of people if asked nicely. The Antagonist was the Prince and was looking at the NPC as a weakness and a liability.

>>96081247
This is actually a cool concept! Prett good art!

>>96093970
If we're on the level of a prince collecting taxes, then said friction is a foregone conclusion.
But even then, some princes consider the fact they keep the domain secure and prosperous as sufficient reason to receive a tithe whenever they feel like it, considering the generation system (past gen 7) tends to make for a might makes right society. By nature of the power dynamics involved, anyone who disagrees either doesn't come to the domain or accepts it as a matter of unlife.
You'll obviously get some princes that try that and fail, but the subject is ultimately about the ones powerful/cunning enough to succeed.

>>96097772
Is that Jehovah or IATIA

>>96097753
>Death Battle fag here.
Kill yourself.

>>96097861
Goku Solos

>>96097831
The WoD version who has like 4 different versions.

>>96097831
That's IATIA, in WoD variously called: Adonai, Allah, August Personage of Jade, Jehovah, Yahweh, YHWH, and misc. other names I forgot off the top of my head. However, I disagree with the previous anon that Caine can "kill or mind control everyone short of God", there's probably a mage or enlightened scientist who could best Caine

>>96097929
My dad could beat him up.

>>96085462
The Hunters have to investigate the recent drowings in the Beach of a close coastal Town.
They found out after a day or two that the ones drowning are people that go to swim aprox. 3 meters past the safeline.
Found out thar the responsibles are the spirits of lifesavers that drowned saving people that went swiming past the save line.
The Hunters do the Hunter things yadayada, all done and good.
After the day was saved by the Hunters, its a rainy day and the Hunters cant go swiming but still enjoy the view.

>>96097929
I mean isn't it implied Lilith or w.e. could and shes just one of the old Pure humans mages from pre-flood times like Caine?

>>96098011
Oh yeah, Lilith could take him, just like >>96097989's dad could

>>96097989
Oh yeah!? Well, my dad can beat up your dad!

>>96094285
What splat?

>>96093434
unless you are some accursed thinblood then your arm should just grow back by itself

>>96097466
the Digital Web? but I guess in this case it's the internet in our world that is the reflection of the Digital Web and not the other way around

>>96097753
Stronger than any cainite, fallen and dumbest mages. Not interested in a fight. Disappointed in his progeny that keeps bringing him up in "my dad beats your dad" arguments. Disappointed in his progeny period. Thinks that Verbena are all lying whores. Suicidal, but since Yahweh kept disrupting attempts early on stopped trying long ago.

>>96098090
Mage.

>>96097753
Caine's strongest ability is hands down his "any attack is returned 7 fold" which means that you must be able to survive your own attacks and not just Caine's

if you cloned Caine and then the two of them hit each other would they just enter an eternal cycle of increasingly more hits until they are both pulverized from the impacts?

>>96098200
Also reminder, there are exactly 7 health levels. Doing Any damage to caine does exactly enough damage back to instantly down you. Killing Caine is all or nothing.

>>96097753
Yes, Caine is very strong, but he's strong in a way that's not suited to something like death battle. Caine is so strong because what he's capable of is so vaguely defined and he has no established limits, you can't have a power level discussion around Caine because by design he refuses to take part.

>>96098222
Why do people keep bringing this sheet up, it was an april fools joke.

>>96098200
>strongest ability is hands down his "any attack is returned 7 fold"
Incidentally, that's the most common vulgar defensive rote among choirboy players. Yeah, they aren't very smart.

>>96098230
Because it illustrates the point that you can't pin a power level on Caine because the game refuses to quantify Caine

>>96098230
Worse than that, it was a joke to "own the chuds", when people wanted caine's stats so that they had an idea of how to use him in a chronicle. WoD writers did not comprehend that their higher level NPCs had the same problem 5e has right now, the GM has to make up powers and limits on the fly. That takes way more work than necessary when he could be spending that brainpower on running the actual chronicle.

>>96098269
Not quantifying an npc makes them largely useless for most games.
Stats exist so that the ST doesn't have to improvise constantly and has more time to flesh out the world and campaign.

Since all antes can have 10 dots in disciplines, that means that Caine has 12 dots in all disciplines.

>>96098230
Vampire wanker's gonna wank.

I would never bother statting Caine and would just assume he has any power or skill he needs to have for the plot to work

>>96098291
Apparently generation is a curse from caine according to book of nod and gehenna, so the Ante's and cain are literally the same strength. The only difference is Caine's "No U" curse.

>>96098272
... what does releasing a joke sheet for Caine have to do with "owning the chuds"?

>>96098331
Problem with that is that it removes all weaknesses and limitations. Even if you establish Players can't kill an NPC, they still should have the opportunity to create ways outmaneuver, trick, or escape them. Without that, then the NPC becomes a walking asspull that only serves to take away their ability to Play the Game for the entire time they're on screen.

>>96098362
People had been hounding the authors on the whitewolf forums to stat caine for years at this point.
The authors assumed they wanted this so they could kill him in whiteroom, completely ignoring it was main STs who were asking about how the fuck they were supposed to run him.
The joke didn't really go over well and resulted in at least one author having a melty.

>>96098393
Why would you need stats to know how to run him? If players try to act against him, they fail. If he wants to do something to a player, he succeeds. That's it. He's not a character to run, he's a plot device.

>>96098380
>>96098393
>NPC becomes a walking asspull that only serves to take away their ability to Play the Game for the entire time they're on screen
I mean. Some Vampire authors weren't ever intending for you to play the game or enjoy the experience, they wanted to furiously masturbate to their Mary Sue and for players to wallow in helplessness and misery.

More than one author had an ugly, hysterical meltdown whenever a mere suggestion that their precious, godlike absolutely invincible donut steel had been killed in some DM's story.

>>96098453
...had been brought up at some con.

From lore researching seems like Caine is a jobber, and he doesn't beat mages. I thought he was designed to kill mages (like sphere 10 ones) that inside death battle discussions basically rape most fictional characters by feats. His wank just coming from a statement that "you lose" rather than having solid feats.

Most of WoD wankery comes from it's bullshit cosmology, supposedly eclipsing even Lovecraft, Xianxia and other truly bullshit retarded settings. Some people say it's approaching the strongest in fiction.

Thanks for the input.

>>96098288
Maybe so, but the conversation was about death battle and I'm just explaining why Caine isn't a good fit for it

>>96098469
He tends to fail a lot (if not at pretty much everything he tries, to some extent). Demons and mages may mock or pity him.

But he's still the mythical ancestor of all vampires in Vampire, so he's hardly a pushover.
No vampire can really 'beat' him. But screw him over, while not necessarily even intending to? Oh, in so many ways!

>>96098393
>>96098453
They were wanking about this and having meltdowns over it? Please, please tell me there's archives of this stuff it sounds hilarious

>>96098380
Caine shouldn't be an NPC, he's the "rocks fall, everyone dies" of VtM. He shouldn't be on the screen in the first place unless the campaign has severely derailed to the point where it needs to end. Hell, the antediluvians two gens below him are already pretty much that, they don't have or need stat sheets either. If you need some stupidly powerful NPC to interact with for some reason, use some 4th gen, there's plenty to pick from.

>>96098447
That type of plot device is called "an asspull", and is most commonly seen as a sign of a bad ST.

>>96098548
Not sure if the old forums were archived. A while ago I tried to dig something up, but their resident obsessive janny denied existence of a backup.

>>96098630
>the antediluvians two gens below him are already pretty much that
Not until revised they weren't. We had their fucking stats and the exact details of what a 10 dot does in 2e, and it wasn't much more impressive than the methusela. Vampire-Blood-God antes was a late revised decision.

>>96098222
>Bloodline based abilities
>More than 13 "children"
>Impossible to quantify, basically stronger than anything short of God(s)
>"Weakness: Horrible parenting skills"
Is Caine the Emprah?

>>96098469
Canonically, an angel is fully capable of one-shotting Caine and all the Antes in one evocation. We have the stats for angel's, and they're weaker than Earthbound demons in DtF.

>>96098648
If you consider it an asspull, just don't include him in the campaign then. I don't understand why people feel the need to do so. Would you give God a stat block and throw him into the story? No, because that would be retarded. Caine is in the same boat.

>>96098716
Unfortunately, there are actual publish materials that have him as an NPC that the players have to interact with to progress.

>>96098696
Also could you briefly explain to me what the "Umbra" and "spheres" are.

Are they physically (or non physically) actual places or do they just coincide and overlap with shit in the Tapestry as like higher places?

>>96098655
Best I could find is this
https://web.archive.org/web/20110325103150/http://forums.white-wolf.com/default.aspx?g=topics&f=29

>>96098793
You think I didn't look there first? 2011's like a decade too late and while earlier captures exist it's only main pages, most treads weren't preserved.

>Just found out what Jupiter's poles look like
Damn, I wonder how the pack's going to survive that when I randomly have the techies kidnap them and put them on a rocket ship to "see what would happen".
Oh well, not my problem.

>>96098745
Yeah and that's dumb too

>>96098766
Everything in the spirit world is the "umbra", which is the series of spiritual dimensions running parallel to the material world.
Spheres are the 9 fundamental metaphysical forces that govern all physical and metaphysical processes. Think of them like the cosmological constants of magic. There are realms in the umbra that these force concentrate in called "Shard Realms".

>>96098156
I appreciate the feedback.

>>96098974
If the kidnapping succeeds, they'd probably rupture the hull in a fit of tard frenzy. Not much interesting going on there

>>96098469
Ugh, VS battles are retarded mate, I would stop reading into it.
But to clarify.
Caine isn't designed at all, he is a plot device and the only thing he has is scaling to Antes at best and dubious stuff from ToJ.
>>96098696
We don't have stats, we basically have some suggestions for STs that may want Angels in their apocalypse that totals to half a page, in a general ToJ book where only one part is devoted to DTF and as dubius as any other ToJ info. Like how...Nightingale ToJ invented a separate Lucifer because Lilith doesn't even exists in DTF and Lucifer didn't fuck her.
>>96098745
Just because he is a NPC doesn't mean he needs stats.
>>96098766
Umbra is the spiritual side of the Creation, usually divided into sections but merge into one outside of planets. There are Dark Umbra, also known as Lower Umbra or the Underworld. The Middle Umbra, some call it the Nature's Umbra and The High Umbra also known as The Astral Umbra.

The Low Umbra has Wraiths, usually souls who for some reason didn't go to their proper places.

The Middle Umbra are mostly Nature Spirits and the spirits of the stuff in the real world like the spirit of your car or the spirit of the mountain.

The High Umbra is basically the realm of Gods, Demons and Concepts. You can find everything from mathematical concepts to Zeus to Santa Claus. Hells, Heavens and other realms exists here.

There are other significant realms inside or around these, like the Elemental Courts(The Realm of Fire, Water etc), The Dreaming (which is basically every dream), the Flux (literal random chaos realm) etc.

They exist, and yes they are physical if you can enter them

Spheres are...complicated.
Spheres exists because they are basically what you can find common across the Creation, even if some places might not have them. Time, Space, Matter, Life, Entropy etc.
Spheres don't exists because a Mage can just don't use them as a concept. Technocracy has a Data Sphere even though most Tradition Mages don't.

Never really cared for the umbra myself. It was basically where the authors threw anything and everything they felt like they couldn't put on earth. By the end it encompassed so many places and things the term "umbra" feels meaningless.

>>96100231
I like supernatural locations but they feel very detached from the material and what makes this Urban Fantasy.

>>96100231
I'm okay with that, but I think Umbras are the shadow of the material world originating from the perception and thoughts of material beings, so it feels natural every wild idea anybody had on Earth would be in there and fighting for their lives.

>>96100301
Don't get me wrong having an "unreality" is fine, my issue is with the execution.

>>96100350
I think the issue is twofold. The first issue is in-setting, I believe the umbra being basically everything makes things messy. Some can dick around with it freely, others can only access a single part of it, some can't access it at all. You can tell it was cobbled together over time as a half-assed attempt to actually tie things together, but in truth it just compartmentalizes things further.

Second issue is out of setting. I think the umbra gives you a very easy excuse to sidestep the logistical issues with an urban fantasy setting in which the majority of people are unaware of the supernatural. Rather than find creative ways to hide things, you have a handy little kitchen sink reality to throw whatever you want. I don't like it.

>>96100231
Much like Sam Haight, its inclusion in games other than W:tA worked against it.

>>96100480
Are you saying Sam Haight would've worked if he stayed in WtA?

>browse Hurt Locker
>notice Thrown Weapons style
>spot a reference to "Impaled Tilt"
>no such Tilt in Hurt Locker
>no such Tilt in any other book
>Codex of Darkness is no help
I feel stupid. Am I missing something here?

>>96100827
Apparently, it should have been "pinned" tilt (page 143).
I really dislike tilts.

>>96100885
Really? I think tilts are fine in principle, the issue is that (and this goes for conditions too) they're never placed in an easy to find place or AS A PART OF THE POWER/ABILITY'S DESCRIPTION IN THE FIRST PLACE.

>>96101168
They're intended to be printed and issued as cards. Just do that, or screencap 'em and keep them aside in an image file if you're playing online.

>>96100680
As an example of something specific from Werewolf - poor treatment of kin creating endlessly vengeful enemies - yes, absolutely. He could have remained in the shadows as another form of boogieman instead of being the poster-child of shitty crossover.

>>96097753
He loses to Sailor Moon in one of her musicals if that helps your scaling.
She did bring Abel along to help, though, so it might not count.

New thread, neonates?

>>96101378
Any ideas for the TQ?

>>96101399
Something about particularly stand out player characters, the kind that surprised you in a good way.

Shame that anon never delivered on waking up to finding his players engaged in ERP while he was asleep

>>96101399
>Any waifus from your past chronicles?

>>96101414
I chickened out but actually got the clear from my players. Maybe I'll drop them on the next thread after I get home.