Thread 96088293

Makes sense to have the current western moral system in setting with a genocide, galactic-scale war every 5 minutes?
Why writers don't embrace the Primordial Truth (Fire, Blood, Steel) as we see in Conan and similars?

>>96088293 (OP)
They do, nowadays they just call it Violence, Speed, and Momentum.

>>96088455
>Violence, Speed, and Momentum.
Futurism 2.0?
The Spirit of Filippo Tommaso Marinetti lives and marches on!

Do you know any futuristic (Marinetti's way) RPG, anon?

>>96088483
I hear Battletoads is a pretty cool RPG.

Moral systems creates culture and invention. In the case of fiction it helps tell different kinds of stories and characters with strong values and morals are more interesting than murder hobos unless the point of your fiction is to just have as much gore and sex as possible.

>>96088293 (OP)
The current western moral system was made in response to a history of endless wars and genocides and has reduced them.

>>96088983
Pre / Old Republic lore is just Primordial Truth and is way cooler than current trilogies' one.

Also, from where is picrel?

>>96088955
>Battletoads
What has to do with Futurism or Primordial Truth?

>>96088293 (OP)
>current western moral system
which one?

>>96088988
>OP talks about morality in warmongering settings and why no more pro-violence in them
>anon talks about reducing violence: and has reduced them
Anon, you missed the point.

>>96088293 (OP)
Conan is anti-authoritarian

>>96089110
OP is complaining about moral systems in settings that have lots of conflict, framing it as unrealistic. I hit the point exactly

>>96089058
>Also, from where is picrel?
Watchmen.

>>96089117
Conan is anti-authoritarian if he has to serve, he's authoritarian when he becomes king. CHAD.

>>96089207
Thanks, anon. Which character, comic?

>>96089583
Original series run, can't remember which book number. Rorschach made that comment, everyone's favorite schizo.

>>96089574
Much like 80% of all people. Crying about tyranny only to support it if its their team in charge only to grow confused and dissatisfied when their team betrays them only to learn nothing for the event and do it all over again once they are overthrown.

>>96089927
Thanks, anon.

Cool 'King of the Hill' reference.

>>96088293 (OP)
>empire kills 1000s of hostile combatants
>oh no tragedy!!! so evil!!!
>rebels kill 1000s of hostile combatants
>the heccin heroeinos!!! get rekt chuds!!!
Retard Wars

>>96091006
i dont see whats wrong with this. Just dont get a job at the opressive regime army

>>96089927
Conan does not cry about tyranny or grow confused at betrayal, he simply acts in his own interests 100% of the time and expects others to do the same.

>>96091169
Best way not to get killed by Imperials is to be an Imperial. Alderaan by itself was more deaths than the entire Imperial Navy and Stormtrooper corps suffered in the entire civil war.

>>96088293 (OP)
Thats battletech

>>96091269
Did you adjust per capita? Alderan was one civvie panet of 1024 with senate seats. 0.1% mortality rate.

The two death stars took pretty much every promising or capable officer with them, so probably 60% or more

Thats the same odds of being just from a high risk world like alderan, kyasheek or from mon-cala

>>96091169
>sign up and die for the insurgency wanting to bring back a corrupt government everyone hated so much they democratically voted it out of existence

>>96088293 (OP)
>Why writers don't embrace the Primordial Truth (Fire, Blood, Steel) as we see in Conan and similars?
Because it's only a facade.
Also, borring and uncreative.

>>96091006
Did you miss when they blew up the planet of civilians

>>96092053
I didn’t know the empire was woke, lmao

>>96092053
>voted it out of existence
Yeah by corrupted intergalactic nobility, who are prospering under new regime,, which was working together with the future Emperor

>>96088293 (OP)
Traditional games? Ever played them?

It's always lame when people bring up shit like the yuuzhang vong as justification. It's like buying out bram stokers dracula and writing a sequel that says that dracula was the only one stopping the mole people from invading 100 years later so who's the good guy now?

>>96093204
People love to bring them up because they can be used to justify the death stars as an idea. Of course, this justification ignores the fact that the both dead stars were also barely mobile compared to other ships, which would make actually using them against the mobile targets a nightmare.

>>96088293 (OP)
>current western moral system
you need to go outside.

>>96088293 (OP)
Morality comes from cultural accretion of an evolutionary adaptation. It may be informed by empathy and reason but in the end it is just that societies adopted codes of conduct that helped them survive over time.

>>96092028
>Did you adjust per capita?
Why would you do that though? The only reason seem to be to present the numbers in a way you find favorable, but on it's own it had no merit.

>>96092053
>they democratically voted it out of existence
Nnnnnope. The man in charge just declared it, after a war he controlled both sides of, deciding every battle, controlling every atrocity, to get just the outrage he wanted.

>Genocide war once every 5 minutes
Western morals are born largely from european ideals. They make perfect sense in the star wars galaxy

>>96089574
>Conan is authoritarian when he becomes a king
>is actually a just king willing to part with tradition to please the will of the people
Doesn’t sound very authoritarian to me by feudal standards.

>>96092053
>sign up and die for the insurgency
The insurgency won tho
>bring back a corrupt government everyone hated so much they democratically voted it out of existence
You must accept the tyrannical regime because... uhm.... the evil space wizard infiltrated the system

what kind of argument is this

>>96091269
The best way to not get killed by imperials is to remove imperial as a category from reality.

>>96088293 (OP)
>side A is responsible for mass murder of its own citizens

>side B wants to reestablish a state which greatest flaw was regular government corruption (side A is even worse in that regard)

Hmmm.....

>>96092053
>the corrupt government
>he says when the main supporters of the empire were the giga corrupt senators that benefited even more from a system that removed the few checks to their power
>but now under the control of a man who word of god is just pure evil

>>96088293 (OP)
If you like the dumbass EU bullshit you should be raped.

>>96092053
>>sign up and die for the insurgency
And here is the difference.
Most of the Imperial are far from "le hecking family man" at best they are conformists, at worse opportunists with complete lack of moral compass (and Empire ruling body openly supports them).
Rebels, meanwhile, are 90% idealists.
And idealists always prevails over conformists, even if it means "we fight to win and that means we lose untill we ready"

>>96094772
This is retarded and childish thinking, but I guess it's Star Wars so that might actually be appropriate here. Generally speaking idealists always lose. This is why basically every revolution for the last 200 years has resuletd in the idealists being tortured to death in labor camps while pragmatic criminals seize control of the State and order their deaths.

>>96094868
>Generally speaking idealists always lose.
I think you are mistaking idealists for infantile romanticists (basically conformists).
>This is why basically every revolution for the last 200 years has resuletd in the idealists being tortured to death in labor camps while pragmatic criminals seize control of the State and order their deaths.
Frankly, but idealists deaths never stops their cause from moving forward. French revolution wasn't stopped by Bonaparte, by Bourbon restsoration, by Bonaparte restoration.
Stalin reversing Soviet Union didn't stop struggle for the civic rights.

>>96094868
To be fair, it took the entire Jewish-led world and a massive war to force that scenario onto Europe.

>>96094381
Authoritarianism is not a feudal standard.
>a just [leader]
Nothing in authoritarianism prevents this.
>willing to part with tradition
Nothing in authoritarianism prevents this.
>please the will of the people
Arguably central to authoritarianism.

Are you perhaps conflating "authoritarian" with some kind of despotic conservatardism?

>>96092132
Yes, so, democracy.

People ignoring the fact that the Republic was both democratic and intensely corrupt would be fucking laughable if it wasn't for the fact that people in real life try to pull "not true democracy!" 9 days a week.

>>96095108
>Yes, so, democracy.
So oligarchy

>>96095136
same thing.

>>96095169
>same thing.
Any chances of you being an american?

>>96088293 (OP)
>the empire were le good guys
The deaths of the Jawas, and Owen and Beru Lars. Neither group was presented as hostile to the empire (except in the sense of not wanting Luke to go off adventuring and get himself killed), and they certainly weren't a threat to the Empire. There was no reason to kill them, particularly not as brutally as Owen and Beru are depicted as being killed.

>>96095108
Every instance of corruption seen in the Republic can be directly traced back to Palpatine's machinations. It is never depicted as having been corrupt in its own right, at least not in the actual films. Additionally, its sheer longevity points to the idea that it fundamentally functioned. The Empire by contrast was so awful that it was constantly dealing with rebellions and uprisings to the point where it didn't even make it to a half-century before being decisively overthrown, no matter if you're using the old EU or Disney canon.

>Bad guys: "In a thousand years of peace, what have you accomplished?!"
>Normal people: "...a thousand years of peace? Isn't that enough?"

>>96095303
The average empire fanboy can't seem to grasp that the empire was, in an almost every way possible, more corrupt than the republic ever was. And that this included very specifically doubling down on the overcentralisation and exploitation of worlds outside the core, aka the biggest source of the political discontent at the end of the republic.

>>96094906
Stalin was not the reversall of the Soviet Union, but its logical outcome. Much in the same way, Bonaparte was not some disruption of the French Revolution, but a totally predictable inevitability of it. With rare exceptions revolutions aren't actually real, they are power seizures. They exist to change the names of roads and justify exterminations. The people who fall for this are Idealists--and there are no idealists who are not infantile romanticists.

>>96095520
Not the anon, but both Stalin and Bonaparte were major shakedowns in process, just the different kinds. Stalin was a case of a bureaucrat managing to wrestle power from the clique of the ideologues and military revolutionaries (Lenin and Trotsky). Bonaparte was a military upstart who managed to start a new dynasty who actively chose to keep some of the postulates started by the revolution, mostly deciding to keep the pragmatic reforms to things like the legal code and the metric system. Point is, neither of them were inevitable nor all that predictable outcomes.

>>96095303
>Every instance of corruption seen in the Republic can be directly traced back to Palpatine's machinations
Ah yes, a state that lasted a thousand years absolutely never had any trace of corruption or problems until the last 20 years of its existence. In those 20 years an entire galaxy decided they hated it, but 980 years before that it was all love, sunshine and rainbows.

>>96095285
>There was no reason to kill them, particularly not as brutally as Owen and Beru are depicted as being killed.
Presumably they fought back, since we see the stormtroopers questioning other people and leaving them alone. It also doesn't look like they "died brutally", they got shot and then their homestead was burned.

>>96094772
>Rebels, meanwhile, are 90% idealists.
Once again, yeah, I'm sure that 90% of an ENTIRE GALAXY were altruistic moral good guys and barely a single one of them was corrupt, violent, or otherwise evil. Because RL revolutions always tend to be full of moral paragons.

>>96094548
>the giga corrupt senators
You mean the ones running the rebellion?
>who word of god is just pure evil
Irrelevant. Word of ""god"" also says jar jar binks is a hilarious and great character.

>>96095520
>With rare exceptions revolutions aren't actually real, they are power seizures. They exist to change the names of roads and justify exterminations.
Everyone likes to forget that the dudes who organized the American Revolution were some of the most corrupt, self-serving nepotists in the world at the time. I say that as an American. 9 times out of 10, maybe more, revolutions and rebellions are only meant to benefit their own leaders.

>>96095303
>>96095453
>I have never played KOTR in my life

republic was already at the bloat point of corruption before Palpatine was even born you fucking Disney tourists.

>>96088293 (OP)
god I hate empire apologists so fucking much. The entire appeal is that they're sneering pompous assholes.
>a-actually they were looking out for everyone in the end. I-it's in this book written 30 years after star wars
fuck no!

>>96095628
I've probably played KOTOR and KOTOR II more often then you've had hot dinners, kid. I have a save file in KOTOR II specifically so that whenever I feel like it, I can argue with Atris about the Mandalorian Wars and the Jedi's role in it, because I love that argument you can have with her about it early in KOTOR II.

But given that the KOTOR games are set some 3,700 years before the Battle of Yavin, and given that the Republic lasted intact for those entire 3,700 years, I'm willing to venture a guess that whatever problems the Republic had, they were not insurmountable.

I mean, ultimately it's a government made up of people. People are imperfect and so any government run by them is going to be imperfect. But that doesn't change that for over thousand generations the Republic was a basically good place to live for its citizens, and that in particular between Ruusan and Palpatine's machinations you have a thousand years of peace and prosperity.

So the Republic was imperfect; so what? The Empire was even less perfect in all the ways that matter, so if your argument is "the Republic was bad" then intellectual honesty requires you to follow up with "but it was still preferable to the Empire, which was worse".

>>96095865
You act like the empire's situation wasn't caused by extremely convoluted writing and anti-plot armor.
>republic good because.... it just is!
>empire bad because.... it just is!

>>96095919
>The Empire is good if you headcanon it!
Kek

>>96095919
>>empire bad because.... it just is!
The Empire is bad because we're shown unambiguously that the Jawas and Owen and Beru Lars know absolutely nothing about the Death Star plans or the Rebellion, and the Empire kills them anyway simply for having the vaguest, unknowing association with it. Burns them to death in the case of Owen and Beru.

I mean, you can make whatever argument you want for Alderaan secretly being a massive Rebel garrison or something, if you like, but we know for a FACT that Luke's uncle and aunt don't have a clue what's going on. And they're still killed.

>>96095578
>It also doesn't look like they "died brutally", they got shot and then their homestead was burned

They're outside the homestead, Anon. They were burned separately from their homestead.

>>96095919
>>empire bad because....
Because it's runned by amoral opportunist led by sociopathic maniac and evil space wizard

>>96088293 (OP)
everything is irrelevant fan fiction outside of the context of the six movies

>>96095975
>but we know for a FACT that Luke's uncle and aunt don't have a clue what's going on. And they're still killed.
How many people have the rebels killed in similar situations? Do you think any side in a war is blameless or has clean hands? Because that isn't true of any war ever fought in the history of mankind.

>>96096048
>How many people have the rebels killed in similar situations?
On screen in the trilogy? None. Not a one.

>Do you think any side in a war is blameless or has clean hands?
I think the on-screen evidence is that the Rebellion's hands are much cleaner than the Empire's.

>Because that isn't true of any war ever fought in the history of mankind
Well this war wasn't fought in the history of mankind. It was fought a long time ago, in a galaxy far far away....

>>96096062
>in one scene in one area on one planet in one instance in this galaxy the empire killed two people who may or may not have deserved/provoked it
>this means they did this everywhere, all the time, without exception
>the rebels don't do this in any specific scene in the movie
>this means they never did it, not once, without exception

>>96096048
>>96096062
>>96096069
They killed that Stormtrooper who surrendered peacefully on Endor. That's literally a warcrime.

>>96096074
And also played drums on their helmets.

>>96096078
I personally find nothing wrong with a little post-war looting and celebrating, but yeah they totally looked the other way while ewoks roasted and ate those imperials. Even if we assume the ewoks only ate the already dead ones and didn't cook alive any prisoners of war, that's still pretty fucked up.

>>96088955
They ruined Battletoads too.

>>96095919
The empire is bad because it is led by an evil space wizard following a evil religion based on a malevolent cosmic force

>>96096242
Also, it's worse than the republic because it was specifically built by some of the most corrupt bastards of the late republic and has explicitly not only continued the most disliked policies of the republic but actively made many of them worse.

i like good guys vs bad guys, simple as.
convoluted plots and morally grey bullshit can stay in real life.

>>96092080
>Primordial truth is a facade
Holy retard
It's far more creative and fun than whatever slave morality bullshit you like

>>96096074
there is nothing wrong with killing stormtroopers, ever.

>>96096290
Yeah, whenever the
>Rebellion is run by corrupt senators
Thing comes up I get confused since the vast majority of the corrupt senate was pro-Empire, it was the few non-corrupt ones that ran the rebellion

>>96096069
Anon, the movies should give us a general overview of what both sides are like because that's kind of their point. We can't possibly see every aspect of the Galactic Civil War, but the movies do show us enough to get a sense of what the Empire is like and what the Alliance is like, and it paints a pretty unambiguous picture. The idea that the Empire is anything other than evil, is pure cope.

>republic vs empire
>not talking the CISpill

Soi Wars is for faggots (true)

>>96096655
Republic vs CIS makes for kino wargaming material
Empire vs Rebels makes for kino TTRPG material

>>96088293 (OP)
>does it make sense to have a moral system in a setting where bad things happen
you live in one, fucking retard

>>96096679
CIS holdouts vs Empire is kino for both wargaming and TTRPGs

>>96091006
if you worked in the Planet Space Laser, especially after it exploded a planet, I dont think you were an innocent

>>96092053
acting like Palpatine's Empire was any better than the Old Republic is fucking absurd. it absolutely wasn't, in any way.
>corrupt senators were replaced by corrupt, cartoonishly evil Moffs
>rumored baby stealing Jedi were replaced by actually baby stealing Inquisitors
>money blown on vanity projects was replaced by money blown on vanity projects and ineffectual superweapons
>ineffectual Republic policies that allowed crime to go unchecked were replaced by overbearing but also ineffectual Imperial policies that allowed crime and corruption to go unchecked and also stomped the shit out of innocent people
So on and so forth. Now, Thrawn's Empire and the Imperial Remnant under Pellaeon, you could make arguments for. Fel's Galactic Empire, you could make arguments for. Palpatine's Empire was a shithole, and it was designed to be a shithole, because Sith get off on that sadistic crap.

>>96092028
How many promising officers got killed by Vader or Palpatine?

>>96096937
i mean, the average imperial PoV story goes about this

>OC imperial guy
>either tries to usurp power from Palp or replace Vader and gets killed
>or is a actually decent and competent guy and gets killed for some bullshit reason reason by Vader anyways

>>96091169
they are drafted

>>96096565
It isn't anyone's fault but George's that the writing is so dogshit though. In a better-written story the sides would be far more even, if not reversed. But Star Wars has never been written well. Its morality stems from George's utterly broken personal worldview that anyone who opposed communism was an evil tyrant thug and anyone who endorsed communism was a saintly superhero.

>>96097319
>In a better-written story the sides would be far more even
Why? Why does that make it a better story?

>>96096538
We never know what the Rebellion's political goals were in-movie besides, "beat the Empire, restore freedom." The EU made it into restoring the Republic, but for all anyone knows, the Rebels could have wanted pic related.

>>96096877
>An entire series about the one guy who went 'Holy shit, this thing blows up entire planets?!' and spends the entire thing trying to sabotage it
>He's about to make the ultimate sacrifice at the end of the series, only for it to blow the fuck up regardless as the rebels stop the Death Star
A perfect comedy.

>>96097647
The Death Star book had that arc with the main gunner. Him saying, "Stand-by," over and over was stalling.

>>96097515
There's nothing in the movies to even suggest they're good at all. They just happen to fight the bad guys. They could be psycho terrorists for all we know.

Given they're explicitly based on the Vietcong there were probably mass graves of civilians in Coruscant after it got """liberated"""

>>96097447
Because no actual rebellion or revolution has ever been flawlessly good and most have been outright evil.

>>96098364
>headcanon
>>96098383
>it isn’t good because it isn’t realistic
Why are empire fans almost always midwits?

>>96096937
Not that many, Palpatine was reportedly decent to the people under his direct command and rewarded those that performed their duties admirably. However, if you fucked up pretty bad and didn't have any use to the Empire, Sheev would make his displeasure known- personally. Vader on the other hand was an asthmatic bogeyman

>>96098493
It's not just unrealistic, it makes the setting so boring and small. In a galaxy of trillions of people every single rebel is a saint who'd rather an hero than ever even think of collateral damage, while every single imperial is required to eat babies and kick puppies just to sign up. Unrealistic isn't its biggest crime, it's being boring and it's why 9/10 eu/nu stories are so predictable.
>ex-imperial builds a new weapon/ship to be evil for no reason
>republic squad suspiciously always involving a movie character confront him
>effortlessly defeat the imperial and he flees to do more evil
>republic squad chases him and kills him for good
>the end
If it's an eu story insert a drama subplot in the middle about leia and han breaking up for the 197th time.

>>96098990
This, stuff like The Last Jedi is much more mature. The Jedi are evil, I love grey jedi

>>96098990
>The movies and expanded universe suck, the only thing that I enjoy is my headcanon
Alright anon

>>96088293 (OP)
>>96088293 (OP)
>Claims to love western morality
>ESL

>>96099142
There are a number of ESL Empirefags on this board

>>96098383
Okay, but that’s for nothing to do with how good or bad a story about a fictional rebellion in a fictional setting would be.

>>96098990
> while every single imperial is required to eat babies and kick puppies just to sign up

This isn’t true even in the original trilogy, as Lorth Needa proves during his brief time onscreen. However we’re not talking about Rebels or Imperials on an individual basis, we’re talking about the Rebellion and the Empire as institutions. Even if the Empire has some good people, the institution they are supporting is unambiguously evil to the viewer. Even if the Rebellion has some heartless bastards in it, the cause they’re supporting is fundamentally a good one, even if their sole goal is to return to the Republic, because the Republic was better than the Empire.

>>96088293 (OP)
lol imagine how spiritually cucked you gotta be to be like "I want to be the losers that can't land a single shot and get killed constantly by rebels"

>>96098493
>Why are empire fans almost always midwits?
Because people with functional brains don't simp for a fascist empire ruled by space nazi wizards.

>>96099494
Because they cant accept that "i like this faction, its cool" and "yeah, they are the bad guys" can be true at the same time

>"I'm on the right side of history! My favorite million-dollar mainstream propaganda piece says so!"
-t. least mentally deficient Turd Wars fan.

>>96099768
I am in the right side of history. Any side that I'm in is the right side of history. Glad we cleared that up.

>>96099576
>i like this faction, its cool
>now let me tell you why they're really the good guys and the Rebellion is really evil
I like G1 Starscream. G1 Starscream is cool. I could sing his praises all day.

But I don't go around saying that he's actually misunderstood and really a decent guy and if only Megatron gave him a chance and blah blah blah. He's a frickin' Decepticon, he's out for personal power and glory, and he'd feed every single Cybertronian, Autobot or Decepticon, into a blast furnace if he thought it would benefit him.

>>96099477
>imperialism is le bad because......because it just is!!!
>republics are good because.......because they just are!!!
The irony here too is that George and his pals were hippies who wanked to Che Guevera. The Republic fetishism only came during the EU. Since word of god is the Rebellion = Space Vietcong it's entirely likely the intended outcome of the Rebellion is communist revolution, therefore implementing what has objectively been the cruelest, bloodiest political system in human history. At leaat the Empire blew its enemies up quick and painlessly, the Rebellion would be starving planets to death while working Imperial POW and their families to death in camps on Hoth.

>>96099494
>>96099576
Because if you understand the batshit moral standard by which the movies were written you would understand that the Nazi Empire is bad but the Commie Rebels would be immeasurably worse.

>>96099995
>Because if you understand the batshit moral standard by which the movies were written you would understand that the Nazi Empire is bad but the Commie Rebels would be immeasurably worse.
WW2 was literally about this, and the world was okay to make alliances with the Commies to fight the Nazis. Even if we weren't friends with them after and knew that was going to be the post-war state going in, the rest of the world wasn't needing to fight existential wars against Communist Russia and Communism in general the same way that it was willing and forced to fight that way against the Nazis.
And a lot of the Commie uprisings were explicitly anti-Imperialist, and so even though the West fought them, it was more about keeping old (or new in the case of the US and Central America) colonial empires intact than it was about stopping actual communism.
So even though we hate Commies, we hate Nazis more.

>>96099576
Then why did OP post that he thinks they’re cool and they’re also the morally correct guys?

>>96088293 (OP)
>disney
Kek
Star wars is gay

>>96099995
>the movies never explicitly state they are restoring a republic, so I headcanon them as insane Soviets
Very interesting

>>96096297
The delivery company beats the warriors 9/10 times in war.
Fire, blood, and steel sound catchy, but to get any of those in any way that matters requires you to have serious civilization going on.

Cushy republics have a habit of becoming fucking huge and destroying all the more militarist neighbors.

>>96101169
Band of Brothers moment:
https://youtu.be/LyZK8k4gzyg
Logistics win wars. It's why the US DoD is the world's biggest logistics company that just so happens to have a very shiny and pointy spear that it can deliver anywhere on the planet in record time and numbers.

>>96088293 (OP)
The material conditions that make it possible for violence to decline is, broadly speaking, the escape from the Malthusian trap; it is better to focus on developing than go into massive wars of all against all, like WW1 and WW2.

While modern industrial civilization can't be assumed to exist outside the Malthusian trap indefinitely (even our upcoming population decline won't let us do that), the Galactic Republic/Empire is a single, galactic polity, far bigger and stronger than any of its rivals, and thus can use social mechanisms other than warfare to safely and indefinitely maintain population well below the carrying capacity of the land. For example, delayed marriage, widespread access to birth control, reduced preference for children, etc, can maintain births=deaths far below the Malthusian limit, allowing people to still live wealthy "western" lives with wealthy "western" values.

In Star Wars, are there even any characters with canonical siblings that weren't multiple births?

>>96094868
Liberal democracy was started by idealists, and only idealists are willing to instantiate it once it gains power. It has moved from strength to strength, crushing every opponent it's ever had, whether the decaying monarchies of Europe in the fires of WW1, the fascists in WW2, or the Soviets in the Cold War.

You can only torture people to death in labor camps if your side wins, anyway.

>>96098383
Velvet Revolution.

>>96099995
>>imperialism is le bad because......because it just is!!!
>>republics are good because.......because they just are!!!
Empires suck and almost every time that people have gotten the chance to leave them, they have. I guess the French have French Guyana and a handful of random islands.

Republics are good and based and have continuously outperformed everything else because it turns out that when you have ultimate power rest in the general public, the leadership mostly acts in the general public's interest.

>>96101408
>Liberal democracy was started by idealists, and only idealists are willing to instantiate it once it gains power.
Bait used to be believable.

>>96101419
Velvet Revolution let one generation of criminals go unpunished and opened fertile ground for another. The price for peaceful hand-over of power was turning blind eye to all wrongdoing of past decades. And subsequent privatization was grift of the century the country still hasn't fully recovered from. Havel was incompetent puppet and that's why everyone wanted him in charge as a figurehead.
How is that not evil?

>>96101477
Sorry, should be a "they achieve power." If I just took over a country, why let the people there vote on me? The Bolsheviks did it in the 1917 November Constituent Assembly elections, but they didn't like the results so they immediately threw it out.

>>96101509
lmfao yes, Czechia and Slovakia are both much worse off and grifted and recovering from the terror of the 90s. Don't bother looking at any objective metrics to inform this decision, piggy. Just worship authoritarians who will gladly throw you into the wood chipper to move around some pretty lines on the map.

>>96101419
On that topic, Euromaidan, Orange Revolution, Rose Revolution, basically all the color Revolutions in Eastern Europe that threw off the shackles of Russia-aligned oligarchs.

>>96101582
>On that topic, Euromaidan, Orange Revolution, Rose Revolution, basically all the color Revolutions in Eastern Europe that threw off the shackles of Russia-aligned oligarchs.
Nice to know. By the way, how's the weather over at Langley?

>>96101940
Better than the weather in Moscow, comrade.

>>96096937
>>96097046
>>96098957
I'm reminded of that once commander from the Empire Strikes back that did the competent and noble decision to as commanding officer assume full responsibility doe his subordinates mistakes because otherwise Vader would of done a costly and time consuming inquisition of those under his command.
And got by killed by Vader for it.
In a competent army your reprimand and perhaps demote or add a direct supervisor to a leader who fails on account of his men, but by applying kill policy in those circumstances your just filtering for those who are willing to throw their subordinates under the bus to save themselves as much as your filtering for exceptionally competent (and much rarer) talent.

>>96102003
But then you lose all the free dark side mana from having your entire military he perpetually terrified

>>96102066
Yep, same reason the Death Star was even made.
Palpatine only saw The Empire as a means to an end to accrue the resources and knowledge needed to become immortal. To that end despite his skill in being a politician he didn't want to have to deal with actually ruling.
To that end the Death Star was meant to be the ultimate suppression device made under the assumption that not only would its existence cause a ton of fear across the galaxy but would also prevent any large scale rebellion from happening by the sheer potential for destruction is provided.
And so he dumped a mass amount of resources and production time, and placed a large chunk of his military leadership onto the station only to have it fucking explode after one use.
All because he couldn't be bothered to stop being a evil wizards for 10 minutes a day.

>>96102003
At the end with practices like that you get some shit tier military where every officer has a big incentive to tell higher ups "Everything fine, enemy on the run" despite being stuck in the mud. No wonder why the rebels could score so many victories over the empire. Vader and Palp totally butchered the entire competency system the clone army had going and went full middle east/ russia military.

>>96102178
The Clones are an interesting topic because the shift away from them makes sense but the purge of them from the ranks was an idiot move.
By that I mean that the clones were an effective standing military but not a stable peacekeeping force due to their cost which is what the Empire Needed as it was stabilizing.
However the major purge of the clone forces in a few short years was a massive mistake as it just wasted a incredibly competent cadre of veterans with the only real concerns being ones of optics in establishing a "regular human" culture in military service.

>>96102203
While yes, at the same time there was no one to actually fight against. The CIS was a Palp puppet on the way out, the remnants and holdout are being purged and after that... there really is just the criminal underworld. So it makes sense to switch so regular people in the armed forces, instead of clones

>>96102204
Correct, but moving away from them as your primary force doesn't mean you sideline them from active service while you still have them even if you build up a conscription and/or volunteer army having élite forces that you don't have to deal with paying a salary for in the mix is still an asset.

>>96088293 (OP)
Current western moral systems won't ever make sense.
>>96088988
The average number of wars in the world has steadily increased for decades now. The spread of liberal democracy globally has actually correlated with the rise in wars, not caused a reduction.

>>96102203
I always ignore the "actively purged" bit, whether it's from Lucas or Disney I don't care. In my mind Journal of the 501st is the best take on clones and their decline from the empire
>Kaminoan revolt led to a decrease in clone popularity, on top of their already premium cost
>A bulk majority of clone vets were stationed on the Death Star since it the Empire wanted it as secure as possible
Combine these two with general attrition amd potential warly retirements due to accelerated aging and it males perfect sense that you've only got a handful of em left come Endor.

>>96088293 (OP)
That's a giant stormtrooper.

>>96102712
>The average number of wars in the world has steadily increased for decades now.
Factually wrong. The frequency of war and war related deaths have decreased since the 1900s and the recent bump in those numbers are caused by the Ukraine war and the Israel-Palestine genocide which isn’t exactly the result of “liberal democracies” but rather good old fashioned expansionist imperialism.

>>96095303
>Every instance of corruption seen in the Republic can be directly traced back to Palpatine's machinations.
The films focus specifically on his silly mastermind plot, but the Republic is clearly corrupt before Palpatine takes office. His predecessor is controlled by the banks.
>Additionally, its sheer longevity points to the idea that it fundamentally functioned.
The republic went through so many different phases, it's disingenuous to treat it as a single continuous state. Remember when the Republic went full 40k for a while, and had church ships wiping out aliens?
>The Empire by contrast was so awful that it was constantly dealing with rebellions and uprisings
George Lucas' films tell us nothing about the level of unrest in the Republic throughout its history. In legends, there is nearly constant unrest, civil wars, clan conflict, the occasional race war, etc.

>>96102712
>The average number of wars in the world has steadily increased for decades now. The spread of liberal democracy globally has actually correlated with the rise in wars, not caused a reduction.
No. War frequency is driven by the polarity of systems of international politics, thus they had a local nadir from 1815-1848 (Metternich system) and 1991-2022 (unipolar moment). They also were much rarer 1945-1991 (bipolar US/USSR conflict) compared to 1871-1945 (highly multipolar, too many actors to list).

Liberal democracy thus causes a decline in violence because liberal democracies basically always all wind up on the same side, which reduces polarity.

>>96101408
>Liberal democracy was started by idealists,
Do you mean the psychopaths in France who led the Reign of Terror, or do you mean the Americans who devised the American system specifically because they were cynics who didn't trust anyone?
>and only idealists are willing to instantiate it once it gains power.
That is possibly the dumbest thing I've ever read. You think all our politicians are idealists?
Democracy is a tool of legitimacy that makes people docile. It is a useful trick in the oligarch's toolbox. Few if any shifts in the Overton window were organic. Most sociocultural changes of the past century were generated by either the government or corporations.
>It has moved from strength to strength,
The liberal world order has lasted less than a century, and it's already falling apart.
By comparison, monarchy, theocracy, and aristocracy all lasted thousands of years.
>crushing every opponent it's ever had, whether the decaying monarchies of Europe in the fires of WW1,
The destroyed each other
>the fascists in WW2,
destroyed by communists. If the war had been solely on the Western Front, liberal democracy would have fallen
>or the Soviets in the Cold War.
liberal democracy simply outlasted another daft opponent. The Americans were more technologically advanced, better connected to the old money of Western Europe, and weren't forcing their people through the industrial revolution in a period of decades. Liberal democracy wasn't responsible for any of that.

>>96102740
>but the Republic is clearly corrupt before Palpatine takes office. His predecessor is controlled by the banks.
Its still regular government corruption vs evil space wizard empire willing to commit mass murder on its own Citizens in places like Alderaan

>>96102722
Plus, liberal democracies have been in decline for 20 years

>>96102789
>Do you mean the psychopaths in France who led the Reign of Terror, or do you mean the Americans who devised the American system specifically because they were cynics who didn't trust anyone?
lol somebody only has read the Federalist Papers as a meme. They literally looked at the dominant political system of their era, which had by this point dominated for millennia, and said "Let's try something completely different." The fact that their brains functioned so they carefully and thoroughly took their time designing that system doesn't change anything, it just makes them smarter than Marx.

>You think all our politicians are idealists?
No, politicians in mature liberal democracies are often cynics; such cynics in immature liberal democracies have a tendency to disassemble all its mechanisms in order to accrete power to themselves (e.g.: Putin, Orban, Napoleon, Hitler).

>Nuh, monarchism, fascism, and communism all died without liberal democracy lifting a finger!!!
Crazy how all of liberal democracy's opponents are retarded and kill themselves. Me, personally, I think that your system is stronger when you are not retarded and do not kill yourself.

>>96101437
>Empires suck and almost every time that people have gotten the chance to leave them, they have. I guess the French have French Guyana and a handful of random islands.
Empires last, on average, 300-350 years. The quality of life in the West is owed entirely to the wealth and global systems established by empires.
The age of liberal republics is collapsing after less than a century.
>Republics are good and based and have continuously outperformed everything else
They only succeeded in the West, where ideologues capitalized on wealth produced by empires. Then those ideologues strongarmed the whole world into following their ideology during the Cold War and using UN conditional handouts.
>when you have ultimate power rest in the general public,
In a representative democracy, ultimate power rests with the representatives, and the system of rules and laws they invent, not with the general public. There are topics that have held popular support for decades on which the people have been simply ignored.
>the leadership mostly acts in the general public's interest.
lol lmao

>>96102722
Fact: the number of wars globally has steadily increased due to continuous intrastate conflict.

>>96088293 (OP)
pretty sure there's a bunch of settings that have different moralities. Maybe just stop playing generic PG settings? Or maybe talk to your gaming group about playing in a different more mature setting?

>>96102792
comparing a real life system to satirical evil isn't a legitimate way to justify it, irl or in the setting.
The Republic is a very real evil, whereas the Empire is silly make-believe evil.

>>96102815
>Empires last, on average, 300-350 years. The quality of life in the West is owed entirely to the wealth and global systems established by empires.
If you only count the metropole then empires are benign-to-beneficial. However if you take into account the fact that for France to slurp wealth out of the colonies, they had to steal money from lots of people, then they are very obviously a net negative for the world. Again, every empire is maintained at the end of the barrel of a gun. All the colonized subjects want to leave, and will the moment they get the chance.

>The age of liberal republics is collapsing after less than a century.
Yeah, it's totally dying, just look at how shit the liberal democracy of Israel (population: 10 million) performed against the Islamic Republic of Iran (population: 92 million), or the liberal democracy of Ukraine (population: 32 million) performed against the dictatorship of Russia (population: 148 million).

>They only succeeded in the West, where ideologues capitalized on wealth produced by empires. Then those ideologues strongarmed the whole world into following their ideology during the Cold War and using UN conditional handouts.
Pure copium. How did South Korea get rich? Poland? These nations were thoroughly, brutally colonized. Wizard magic?

>In a representative democracy, ultimate power rests with the representatives, and the system of rules and laws they invent, not with the general public. There are topics that have held popular support for decades on which the people have been simply ignored.
Dumb contrarian retardation, because you are a stupid antiliberal moron. The reason that the public can say "I want to be able to buy a new car directly from the manufacturer" and representatives can keep laws that prevent them from buying a car directly from the manufacturer, is because the public does not care very much, but the car salesmen care a lot.

>>96102813
>Crazy how all of liberal democracy's opponents are retarded and kill themselves. Me, personally, I think that your system is stronger when you are not retarded and do not kill yourself.
Liberalism is literally killing itself before your very eyes. It is happening in real time.
Liberalism only became the Western norm in the early 20th century, and the global norm in the mid 80s, and it's already falling apart.
Being slower to destroy itself than communism or fascism doesn't make it a strong or sustainable system.

>>96102844
Antiliberal retards and coping that liberalism is totally about to die this time, name a more iconic duo.

>>96102841
> they had to steal money from lots of people, then they are very obviously a net negative for the world
they were a net positive for the liberal societies that inherited their wealth. that's my point.
>Again, every empire is maintained at the end of the barrel of a gun.
That's true of all states, including liberal democracies.
>All the colonized subjects want to leave, and will the moment they get the chance.
you're moving the goalpost. colonized subjects are different than "every time people have gotten the chance"
>Yeah, it's totally dying
Yes. Those wars are indicative of its dying.
>How did South Korea get rich?
ingratiating itself to the liberal inheritors of imperial power/wealth, during the cold war
>Poland?
fell into the liberal paradigm after the communist experiment failed
In the rest of the world, africa, south america, etc., the cold war and liberal conditions on international aid were the factors that made them liberal, not some grand enlightenment.
>The reason that the public can say "I want to be able to buy a new car directly from the manufacturer" and representatives can keep laws that prevent them from buying a car directly from the manufacturer, is because the public does not care very much, but the car salesmen care a lot.
We're talking about existential concerns like mass migration, climate policy (both pollution and reckless damage to citizens), public morals, etc.

>>96102847
>liberals and simpleminded presentism, name amore iconic duo
your world is coming apart at the seams, because of the hubris and delusions of liberalism and its failure to maintain what it inherited.

>>96102869
>We're talking about existential concerns like mass migration, climate policy (both pollution and reckless damage to citizens), public morals, etc.
Immigration has been sharply curtailed due to voters turning against parties that don't turn against it, it's one of the most iconic political shifts of the modern era. Voters don't care about climate policy or public morals.

>>96102872
I'm sure people like you thought exactly the same thing in 1804, 1861, 1917, and 1933. They were wrong then, and they're even more wrong now. Trump and Putin put together are not the threat to global liberalism that Hitler alone was. Continue to eat shit while coping that your hour has finally come.

>>96088293 (OP)
It's a shame that conversations like these are impossible to have because both sides are occupied by three completely different general camps.
On the pro-Empire/Villain side you've got
>Camp A: people who just like the faction and want play a moustache twirling villain/just like the aesthetics
>Camp B: people who want to introduce a little moral complexity and play a true believer of that faction
>people who see it as a stand-in for their IRL ideological beliefs and wants to spread that belief through that faction
Then on the pro-Rebels/Heroes side you've got
>Camp A: people who just want to be an objective good guy or like the aesthetics
>Camp B: people who want to introduce a little moral complexity by playing an antihero, cutthroat merc, or out an out villainous extremist that still believes in the same ideals as the heroes
>Camp C: people whose entire ideological moral framework consists of Star Wars and Harry Potter who think even liking stormtrooper armor is tantamout to holding neonazi beliefs IRL

Camps A and B on each side can already chafe against one another depending on what people want to get out of a game, e.g. whether you want to deal with moral complexity or just have a simple "heroes vs villains" romp, but typically they can find some sort of common ground amd room for everyone (Andor is a great example of people who exist all across the moral spectrum on both sides of the conflict), but it's Camp C that really poisons the well for all involved. And it's especially bad on the internet where you've got people using Star Wars (or 40K, or DnD, etc) as a proxy war in their culture crusade, trolls pretending to be culture warriors to rile other posters, and people LARPing as in-universe believers because having these sorts of in-universe, in-character ideological debates can actually be a lot of fun in the right context.

tl;dr: kill all self-inserters unable to differentiate reality from fiction and everyone could have more fun.

>>96100970
>rebel fags: you arent allowed to support the empire, george lucas said its evil and his word is god!!!

>george lucas: the rebels are space vietcong, the empire is space america

>also rebel fags: cl-clearly the rebellion just wants a happy constitutional republic no matter what george says

Very interesting indeed

>>96101940
Surely it's better than weather in trenches or any of the russian cities
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yHHy-RuKfw

>>96099995
>thIss is y you- uhh Hurr durr! HAH showed them.

yes you absolute chud
they just are
you are the most un based gay ass wanna be intellectual fucktard there is.
also a rebel group has way less oversight which means i can employ justice as i see fit. i have guns and answer to no one. get fucked in the ass by yer esoteric furrerdaddy. i have villains to bomb planets to save ladies to love.

>>96098364
kinda doubt the monarchists intend to recreate the republic in anything but name for the sake of propaganda

>>96102722
does this account for spinning things through proxies?
it state based after all
so if the author says that one side doesnt count as a state and any collateral doesnt count either because one side is illegitimate
then you will get exactly this no matter how bad it really is. so what does the article you got this form have to say about it?

>>96103299
>what is civil war with foreign intervention

>>96102740
>His predecessor is controlled by the banks
Who are shown as being controlled by Palpatine, so...

>>96102833
Not in the context of the story being told, however.

>>96092117
Alderaan was a supplier of the Rebellion, it wasn't an uninvolved party.

>>96103534
>the galactic megabanks only started influencing the republic in the last 30-40 years before the movies start
>literally no one was ever corrupt before palpatine was born

>>96103277
enjoy fucking your sister retard

>>96103360
for real

>>96103697
im more of a space cowboy than a southern magician
but ill impregnate the evil generals daughter still rebellious in her mid 20s when she runs my way

>>96103697
>>literally no one was ever corrupt before palpatine was born
I mean, maybe. The movies don't show us one way or another, they just show that in their present, the banks are under Palpatine's control.

Even if the banks were corrupt prior to Palpatine, they were at least corrupt towards their own ends (making a profit, which is not an innately evil goal) rather than his (creating a deliberately awful Hellhole state where suffering abounds, which is).

Again, I feel like your argument essentially boils down to,

>The Republic was imperfect, therefore the genuinely awful Empire should replace it

And that just isn't logical. Surely if the Republic is flawed, the goal should be fixing the flaws or, if they are unfixable, at least not making them worse or replacing the Republic with something worse? But that's exactly what the Empire is to the Republic, an objectively worse version of it.

>>96088293 (OP)
Because most writers are left-leaning

>>96103692
Every single person was?

>>96103227
>I am based, that's why I support the empire run by a satantic cult based off of post-ww2 globalist american
kek, empirefags continue to be midwits

>>96105657
Ironically enough, I think a left-leaning Empire could work.

https://youtu.be/T_DroaGggbc?feature=shared

The problem is not most writers are leftists but retards, shame shit would happen if writers were rightists but also retards.

I'm apolitical, I'm just here for the galactic-scale violence (Star WARS) and this days action and battles scenes from Hollywood are shit.

>>96105657
This, right wingers have no inherent creativity.

>>96102873
>Immigration has been sharply curtailed due to voters turning against parties that don't turn against it
In Sweden, perhaps, where the state had to call in the military to suppress an immigrant crime wave.
In Britain the natives have always opposed increases to immigration, but it got pushed through anyway. There isn't even a party willing to deport illegal immigrants, despite the majority of each party's voters supporting it.
In the Netherlands and Italy, right wing governments came to power because of the immigrant problem, and proceeded to do nothing because of institutional opposition and/or their own self interest as the state.
In Germany and France, most people oppose mass migration, but their political parties refuse to work with the anti-immigration parties over the immigration issue.
The situation is essentially the same in Spain, Ireland, etc.
If the current governments turn on immigration, it's not because the will of the people changed (it's been consistent for decades), but because the government now sees immigration is a problem.
>Voters don't care about climate policy or public morals.
Many do care.
but the point is that what people think is downstream from elite institutes likes government and corporations. In America, most democrat voters opposed gay marriage until a couple decades ago when opinions flipped, not because of a grassroots revelation but because the elite institutes decided to make it so.

>>96088293 (OP)
>Why writers don't embrace the Primordial Truth (Fire, Blood, Steel) as we see in Conan and similars?
Conan, the character and the stories idepdently, have a pretty progressive vision of things. It could just be a masturbatory power fantasy but Conan regularly has to deal with the woes of slavery, rejects racism, mocks class distinction and works with women in power. People see a couple covers and convince themselves they know what happens inside.

>>96106178
Most US writers aren't leftists, they got 50 years of propaganda about how unionizing and asking for better work conditions was an evil scheme to hurt the ultra rich.They can't imagine the idea of killing a king for the greater good, much less changing society as a whole. US leftists are just pro-corporation pro-free market at all cost colonialists with a coat of moral paint.
>It's really bad that we need slave labor to support our living standards, but the mexican inmigrants and prisoners probably enjoy slavery more than the alternaitve so we must protect the system

>>96106178
>The problem is not most writers are leftists but retards
Those two tend to go hand in hand. Leftists have no concept of cool so everything they make is just the lamest tepid dogwater.

>>96102877
>Rome could never fall! People were saying that for centuries!
>t. pleb in 470 AD
That's a very small window of success for liberal democracy, compared to all the other powerful civilizations that ultimately failed too.
>Trump and Putin put together are not the threat to global liberalism that Hitler alone was
Who said anything about Trump and Putin? Trump is a liberal, Russia is a regional power.
Liberalism is collapsing because of economic stagnation, racial/ethnic conflict eroding trust and social stability, widening political divisions (many created and stoked by democracy), and the loss of monopolized force/wealth.

>>96106422
>rejects racism
Eh...sort of. He'll work with Black people but he definitely holds himself apart from them; likewise even though Picts are racially pretty much cut from the same cloth as Cimmerians, Howard made it a point that no Cimmerian considers a Pict to be White like them.

>>96106454
Rome actually lost a lot of territory before 470, and was clearly a weaker state after the Crisis of the Third Century.

>Liberalism is collapsing
>can't cite any actual collapses of liberalism, just vague "it's collapsing" rhetoric

>>96106454
What's interesting is liberal democracy has a much longer history in star wars, it's a wonder they aren't even more western moral wise

>>96106448
Anything popular always falls into the hands of the (retarded) normie majority, no matter if it's an ideology (philosophy, religion), hobby, custom, etc.

>>96106422
>pro-free market at all cost
>free market
lmao no, they LOVE controlling the market through either backchannels like debanking and payment processors or through soft power like social pressure campaigns.

>>96106448
Right wingers idea of “western culture” is like Star Wars and wojaks so I don’t think they’re like the champions of “cool” either.

>>96088293 (OP)
This whole thread consists of the empire fanboys trying to prove that the rebels are comically evil and that the republic was also comically evil, without actually giving any reason as to why the empire was good. Zero, zilch, nada.

It's the same inane shit people do on twitter, where they think that if they smear enough shit on the opposed side it automatically means that their own side is good. Which is how we end up with the people saying that the rebellion not being 100% about clean heroic figures with zero collateral damage means that somehow the empire was justified. The same empire that was so shit that it started to implode under the internal dissent from not only periphery but also regions that would be seen as heartlands or at least close to being heartlands.

>>96110068
Its because the people who make these types of arguments think that the faction their advocating for is something they actually want IRL in some regard.
They just know that it will make them seem like idiots or psychopaths to admit that and so couch it in "lesser of two evils" talk.
See>>96102968

>>96088293 (OP)

woah Leia is just like Daenarys

>>96091269
>Best way not to get killed by Imperials is to be an Imperial
Have you watched Andor? Do "Teamkilled by a sniper to cause an insurrection" and "Sent to a concentration camp for being at the wrong place at the wrong time/doing a bad job/having a subordinate do a bad job" ring a bell?

The point of the Empire is that its own ultra-autocratic ideology (secretly fueled by Palpatine's Sith ideology) is so insane that it ends up being counterproductive and wasteful towards its own people. The only reason the teamkilling didn't skyrocket even more is that the alienated population successfully rebelled before that (which is a civil war, so it still counts as "killing their own" in a sense: many of those rebels would have been Imperials if the Empire hadn't betrayed them first).

>>96108006
Funny, seeing as leftoids cite Star Wars and Harry Potter they're actual historical text and the bible all at once

>>96110985
> many of those rebels would have been Imperials if the Empire hadn't betrayed them fjrst
Luke Skywalker himself being sort of an example of this. He wanted to join the Imperial Academy.

>>96102722
This chart is quite nonsensical in the context you apply it. Dataset collection and its quality aside, it covers less than third of time frame since ascendancy of liberalism, and only fraction of time frame during which liberal democracy has dominated international politics (it is debatable whether to set the start of that at events of 1840s, or WW1 and Bolshevik Revolution). Plus death ratio is also tremendously predicated on technology.
Also while many of the countries bombed (or couped) back to stone age over the course of decades over flimsiest of reasons by the dominating world order might not have suffered slaughter, I would say it is still kind of bad, amirite?

Mostly unrelated, saw this Phantom Menace concept art the other day and I swear I have seen this costume used on a different character in something but can't for the life of me remember what. Anyone have ideas?

>>96111496
Right-wingers would never do such a thing.

>>96111496
Never.

>>96111793
>Gave him a red lightsaber
>Calls others Sith

“How do you do, fellow kids?”

>>96111496
Never ever.

>>96111805
Looks orange to me, but probably because piss filter

>>96111793
>>96111804
>>96111808
The fuck is that?

>>96088293 (OP)
The fuck is "current western moral system"?

>>96088293 (OP)
You know, I think the only series I've read that really embraces the whole "Fuck it, it's all bullshit anyway" is The Second Apocalypse. Nearly everyone is a moral nihilist in that one.

>>96112118
nigga are you retarded, the vast majority of characters in that series are religious zealots.

>>96111793
>>96111804
>>96111808
>can only cite fossilized neocon boomers
Nigga these people are probably further left than you

>>96112082
See, back in the old days, everybody loved getting beat up and raped by the king. That's why the Epic of Gilgamesh starts with everybody getting pissed Gilgamesh is (?)ing their sons and fucking their daughters so they pray to the gods to make him stop it.

>He walks around in the enclosure of Uruk,
>Like a wild bull he makes himself mighty, head raised (over others).
>There is no rival who can raise his weapon against him.
>His fellows stand (at the alert), attentive to his (orders ?),
>and the men of Uruk become anxious in ...
Gilgamesh does not leave a son to his father,
day and night he arrogant[y(?) ...
>
>[The following lines are interpreted as rhetorical, perhaps spoken by the oppressed citizens of Uruk.]
>
>Is Gilgamesh the shepherd of Uruk-Haven,
>is he the shepherd. ...
>bold, eminent, knowing, and wise!
>Gilgamesh does not leave a girl to her mother(?)
>The daughter of the warrior, the bride of the young man,
>the gods kept hearing their complaints, so
>the gods of the heavens implored the Lord of Uruk [Anu]

>>96112082
OP is likely commenting some heavily processed and bastardized version of Niche's Master/Slave Morality.

>>96088455
Baby, baby, baby.

>>96117021
Damn, that's crazy. Good thing we're past that now that we've progressed into more enlightened era of rule of law, equality and power accountable to the people. Vive la révolution!
How are those Epstein files coming along btw?

>>96106592
>can't cite any actual collapses of liberalism, just vague "it's collapsing" rhetoric
>economic stagnation
>racial/ethnic conflict eroding trust and social stability
>widening political divisions
>loss of monopolized force/wealth
>>96106597
kek that's an understatement.
Galactic liberal democracy existed in SW for almost 25,000 years.
The entirety of recorded human history is 5,000-10,000 years.
The oldest liberal state is under 250 years old, and for most of its history wouldn't be considered a liberal democracy by modern standards.
Global democracy has only been the norm since the 1980s.
>it's a wonder they aren't even more western moral wise
irl they'd have become something totally unfamiliar to Westerners, but the Republic is a safe fantasy for 20th C liberal ideas.

>>96124773
The Republic actually broke down multiple times and had to be reformed.
The trick is that the Jedi and The Republic exist in this symbiotic position where when one falters the other is meant to support its repair.
This is a consequence of the Force's inherent urge towards symbiosis being translated into the Jedi being armed galactic negotiators whos purpose is to resolve situations before the break out into large scale conflict. So a giant Galactic Democracy where hypothetically everyone is brought to the table and conflicts are resolved via words and votes is ideal to cultivating peace that the Jedi view as the goal.
The however breaks when the Jedi get to close or pull away from The Republic, as without the Jedi upholding certain cultural values and driving away certain dark influences the Republic collapses from without and if The Jedi get dragged to far into The Republic's control they get dragged down into the political bullshit.

TLDR The Republic only lasts because the Jedi are ostensibly Ideological Commissars that serve as a separate but supported Watchman Organization that keeps itself in line via Zealous Dogma.
It just turns out that when the Dogma is being done right its what Space God wants.

>>96124773
>>can't cite any actual collapses of liberalism, just vague "it's collapsing" rhetoric
>>economic stagnation
>>racial/ethnic conflict eroding trust and social stability
>>widening political divisions
>>loss of monopolized force/wealth
Yes, you did it again, I saw last time too.

Where did liberalism collapse? If it is collapsing, with dozens of liberal democracies across the globe, surely you can point to some actual place it has actually failed and been replaced - in whole or in part - with some other system? In the 1930s, you could point to Nazi Germany; in the 1910s, to the failure of the Russian Provisional Government; in the 1860s, the nation divided against itself unable to stand.

Instead, it's just "trust me bro".

>>96125544
It also just helps that Palpatine's plan was attacking the Republic and the Jedi at the same time, rather than just one or the other.

>>96088293 (OP)
>the primordial truth
>looks inside
>it's what a midwit thinks the bronze age was
>no spiritual insight into human nature whatsoever
>they think they would've been a chad murderhobo rapist instead of a buckbroken slave

>>96126300
>liberalism isn't collapsing because infinity immigrants, babysitting education systems, hollow industries and faggot governments are built to last

>>96088293 (OP)
Star Wars is one government with one rebellion. It is not some whole other universe in moral terms.

Blowing up Alderaan is bad, but its not the same as killing that many people in our world because its just one of thousands of inhabited worlds. It probably killed a lower percentage of "the population" than 9/11

And similarly the empire doing something bad doesn't bring the whole galaxy's moral framework down to their level when their right to rule is objectively in question by virtue of the fact that there's enough opposition for serious major rebellion.

>>96132085
>liberalism is collapsing
>no I can't post to any actual liberal countries actually collapsing
>it's just collapsing, okay?
Yes. When your brain is a tiny little walnut it's hard to understand that when, say, the Roman Empire was collapsing, it lost territory for decades prior to the actual collapse; when communism was rising, there were revolutions in Russia, Hungary, Alsace-Lorraine, and Germany (failed, in the latter three cases, obviously); when fascism was rising, it took over Italy, Japan, Germany, and Spain.

But somehow, liberalism is collapsing, and you can't even point to a single liberal country that's failed. You can't show Sweden deciding to embrace an authoritarian dictator, you can't show Japan's LDP shutting down opposition parties, you can't even point to unfair elections in the United States (where there was an election in Wisconsin that got national attention and went to the Ds).

>>96134780
What they mean by liberalism collapsing is "The quality of life in the (Soft Power) imperial Core is degrading at a slow but steady pace regardless of how is in the driver set, I sure hope some other ideology saves me".
So yeah its not a collapse but liberalism is in a period of material decline that could be the early stages of collapse if not addressed properly, and everyone has lost hope in things bouncing back.

>>96088293 (OP)
>Primordial Truth
Because it's neither

>>96134882
??

>>96132072
>>96106178
>I'm apolitical, I'm just here for the galactic-scale violence (Star WARS) and this days action and battles scenes from Hollywood are shit.

>>96088293 (OP)
Good is good. Bad is bad.