Magic isn't nearly as OP as it should be in any system.

So you're telling me there is this esoteric art in your world that bends the rules of reality, and no one really knows how it works or where those powers come from, +90% of the population will never have any sort of contact with these powers, yet some have a natural knack for it, and DON'T use it to live as kings?

Even worse, you're telling me some races have innate control of these reality-altering powers, and AREN'T the dominant race of their own world? Assuming they need food, water, shelter, security and other resources like any other living being, you cannot tell me with a straight face they share this world with ooga-boogas and the muggles aren't getting the short end of the stick.

In any magical setting where the world is old and full of history, there should exist an elite that lives as gods among mortals, and said elite also prevents muggles from ever learning how to use magic before it gets out of hand, thus preventing any chance of being overthrown. You can come up with any bullshit reason why that isn't the case, but this is the only logical conclusion of magic.

>This bullshit again
How about we just dont?

>>96117450 (OP)
>His setting isn't a cycle of apocalypse caused by the gods among mortals fighting for power
>His setting doesn't have cultural taboos ingrained in all levels of society to prevent gods among mortals from rising up
>His setting doesn't have the actual gods slapping anyone who thinks they are more than the biggest ant in the hive down
>His setting has magic as something besides the single most precious thing, hoarded to the point of vanishing into the sands of time
>His setting's magic isn't so incredibly unpredictable that only the most desperate use it when more mundane means exist
>He uses the term muggles
>He wants to apply logic to magic
Git Gud

>>96117450 (OP)
Magicfag my fren, is this you?

>>96117450 (OP)
Whoops, the would-be god-king forgot to turn on his anti-arrow defense this morning, look at him gurgle there with that sticking out of his neck. Better luck next time.

>>96117553
>>His setting isn't a cycle of apocalypse caused by the gods among mortals fighting for power
>>His setting doesn't have the actual gods slapping anyone who thinks they are more than the biggest ant in the hive down
Gods are a cop-out. Having the world bend over every whim of an omnipotent entity makes for a boring story. It wouldn't even make sense for powerful beings to interfere with such small, mortal affairs anyways. Specially considering everyone has to pick on someone their own size to survive.

>>His setting doesn't have cultural taboos ingrained in all levels of society to prevent gods among mortals from rising up
Would you care about their opinion if you had all that power?

>>His setting's magic isn't so incredibly unpredictable that only the most desperate use it when more mundane means exist
It does look like that to the magically impaired races.

>>He uses the term muggles
It's a good term. Everyone knows what it means.
>>He wants to apply logic to magic
It's called internal consistency.

>>96117532
>>96117592
This is my first post on this board and I have no clue who you're talking about.

>>96117629
Which is the main difference between gods and delusional yet powerful mortals. It's a great point, to be quite fair.

>>96117703
>The formatting
MAGICFAG MY FREN IT IS YOU HAHAHAHAHA

>>96117703
>This is my first post on this board
This isnt even the first time you've made this thread since friday. Sincerely kys

Most magic is wielded with wisdom. When you don't do that you get mad wizards instead of wise sages (Like pic rel). Usually mastering magic comes with moral and philosophical implications.

Liches, some of the greatest evils in the world (In most settings) are evil wizards driven mad with power (and immortality)

What's with this weird autism dndfags have regarding magic? They're always insisting their magic should be high fantasy, but then get pissy when you give martials fantastical abilities that match such a setting because it's "not realistic". It feels like some deep seated trauma regarding high school jocks bubbling to the surface.

>>96117450 (OP)

>>96117450 (OP)
>So you're telling me there is this esoteric art in your world that bends the rules of reality, and no one really knows how it works or where those powers come from, +90% of the population will never have any sort of contact with these powers, yet some have a natural knack for it, and DON'T use it to live as kings?
Yes, that tends to be a consequence of something being sufficiently esoteric. By the time you actually reach it, you're rendered such a weirdo too few people will want to deal with you to be worth calling a "king". This is exacerbated by the fact that it's an incredibly fine line between "magic good enough to take over a kingdom" and "magic good enough to not need society", meaning a whole lot of wizard-kings are honestly just wasting their time ruling nobodies instead of becoming even better wizards.

>Even worse, you're telling me some races have innate control of these reality-altering powers, and AREN'T the dominant race of their own world?
It honestly depends on how you look at it? The titular Dragons of D&D are pretty unambiguously apex hyperpreditors to such a degree that they can single-handedly render rather sizable areas nearly immune to human habitation, for example. But for many of the same reasons they can no-sell medievalesque societies, it's a pain in the ass for little reward for them to participate in such, and so their varied degrees of regional "dominance" doesn't follow through to a pattern of rulership.

>Assuming they need food, water, shelter, security and other resources like any other living being
Again, the point at which magic is good enough to take over isn't far from not needing to.

>you cannot tell me with a straight face they share this world with ooga-boogas and the muggles aren't getting the short end of the stick.
They usually do, it's just that "the short end of the stick" actually includes "living in society".

>>96117703
>Gods are a cop-out.
Not any more than Wizards at this scale are to begin with.

>Having the world bend over every whim of an omnipotent entity makes for a boring story.
Don't have to be omnipotent, just mildly hyperbolizing the very same power disparity OP is about.

>It wouldn't even make sense for powerful beings to interfere with such small, mortal affairs anyways.
Behold, the reason the gigawizards don't bother with lording over muggles.

>Specially considering everyone has to pick on someone their own size to survive.
Not really? You can in fact opt out of the rat-race at a certain point of "Random Bullshit Go". Sure, you'll be at risk of a would-be crab-bucketer fucking over you and everyone you know who didn't, but the dynamics are such that that doesn't HAVE to happen.

>Would you care about their opinion if you had all that power?
Same reason a tiny-ass chain you can break by hand can restrain an elephant. Learned helplessness is a hell of a thing.

>It does look like that to the magically impaired races.
In YOUR setting.

>It's called internal consistency.
To a rather narrow band of properties for magic.

>>96118116
More a very sad take on verisimilitude. Back when Domain play was part of the system, the balancing factor was that these fantastical personal power-sets cut you out of large-scale leadership, and with its removal the game lost its caveats to "Magic-Users get the power ceiling".

>>96117450 (OP)
>Magic isn't nearly as OP as it should be in any system.
How would you know, nogames?

>>96117450 (OP)
No one actually wants to play in the tippyverse.

>yet some have a natural knack for it, and DON'T use it to live as kings?

Some certainly try. Sorcerer lords aren't uncommon, but aptitude with magic doesn't necessarily translate to being a good ruler. The clergy works closely with the king, keeping him in good standing with The Gods, advising him on things magical and mundane, and doing the bookkeeping for the kingdom. So there's often a clash between them and sorcerers.

Wizards are generally not interested in ruling, since it interferes with their studies. But some that have achieved immortality will, as a side project.

>Even worse, you're telling me some races have innate control of these reality-altering powers, and AREN'T the dominant race of their own world?

They often are, but it's complicated. If your magic powers are strong enough, you can just use magic to satisfy your needs, and it's less effort than conquest. In my setting, the high elves did a ton of conquering early on, but their empire grew too big to keep track of.

>there should exist an elite that lives as gods among mortals, and said elite also prevents muggles from ever learning how to use magic before it gets out of hand,

Depends on where in the setting you are. They do try, but you can't keep track of everything and everyone, and the elites don't always agree with each other.

>>96117450 (OP)
Wizards and the people who play them have bloated enough egos as it is, often wasting all that arcane power power on frivolous shit for self-satisfaction. They don't need MORE power, they need more CREATIVITY.

>Magic isn't nearly as OP as it should be in any system.
You misunderstand magic as special in the first place.

It isn't. Nor is it particularly impossible to learn. What keeps the common person from doing it is literal conspiracy and bog standard keeping of trade secrets in a manner no different to your local blacksmith. It's really not in the tradesman's interest for the few key secrets of his trade to land in the hands of every Tom, Dick, or Harry. Most of what happens is very simple to ape with the core moving part being kept secret. Like how the real secret of making a good sword is 99% in the tempering step. Beating, folding, and mixing metal are all fairly mundane by comparison.

For wizards, it's gaining the ability to store arcane spells in the first place. "Mana" exists as a term to obfuscate things for the common man. You hear it and think of a quantity of exotic water the wizard can pour out and shape. No, it's more like flexing an arm. Once this additional moving machinery is 'installed' into your person, you are a wizard! The more you use it, the more the muscle improves and the more spells it can store per day in it's network. All you need is access to the runes to read to form this new thing in you a step at a time. That's the part they would rather die than confess. The part they will kill apprentices over stealing. That is the one true moving part that cannot simply be aped for seeing it performed. It's what enables all the rest to work, and all you need to do is read it enough times.

Anything told to you by anyone else is a cover, or their own master obfuscated the process to them so they couldn't share it. The potential of the latter is very great, mind you. You can include a lot of junk text among the runes and arcane language needed to secretly initiate your apprentice without them being aware. It reads like an awkward book.

The particularly canny ones may realize. So be warry in selecting apprentices.

>>96117450 (OP)
>Magic isn't nearly as OP as it should be in any system.
>should be
The power of magic is entirely arbitrary. There's as much reason for magic to be the most powerful force in the universe as there is for it to be effectively useless — none, because magic is made up and its definition is setting/system dependent.

Your whole rant means nothing if the absolute limits of magic ends at minor charms that're so subtle as for their effectiveness to be indistinguishable from placebos.

>>96119350
Lame as fuck.

>>96119350
This is literally just witch hat atelier.
>>96117703
>This is my first post on this board and I have no clue who you're talking about.
Isn't it way more embarrassing to have turned out to be a really stereotypical kind of person where everyone goes "ugh, it's one of these guys again"?

>>96119654
>This is literally just witch hat atelier.
magic in that setting is just writing

>>96117532
If we don't, OP just samefags a fake argument until he gets a real one. The only thing to do is this:
>>96117450 (OP)
*rips a greasy pepperoni fart directly in your mouth*

>>96117450 (OP)
No Carl I'm not letting you instantly delete the boss because your character is a 200+ IQ gigamage and superior to what you call the plebs, you are a level 3 wizard who almost died to the boss' handaxe. I'll have to check your sheet to make sure you didn't fudge your stats.

>>96117450 (OP)
>So you're telling me there is this esoteric art in your world that bends the rules of reality,
Multiple, in fact.
>and no one really knows how it works or where those powers come from,
Plenty know how it works and where it comes from.
>+90% of the population will never have any sort of contact with these powers,
lol no. Something like 40% of the populous knows how to cast a cantrip or has some minor magical power. Most everyone has seen some form of magic done, even if its just the local priest blessing people or the yearly crop rituals.
>yet some have a natural knack for it, and DON'T use it to live as kings?
Its not as grand and powerful as you think it is, and getting to the point of altering reality on a "wide" scale takes many years of struggle and study. Power is rare, kingly power rarer still.

What strange assumptions you've made.

>>96117450 (OP)
>In any magical setting where the world is old and full of history, there should exist an elite that lives as gods among mortals, and said elite also prevents muggles from ever learning how to use magic before it gets out of hand, thus preventing any chance of being overthrown.
>isekais you to a world where you lose all your magic

>>96117450 (OP)
idk idc ask the worldbuilding general.

>>96117450 (OP)
What about my fantasy setting where the only thing magic does is let you blow confetti out of your ass?

Physics is lethal and brutal as all hell.

In plenty of fantasy fiction you have the author making lightning move slower or the martials are fast enough to dodge or even block bullets, and only under very specific circumstances.

Magic/physics is always crippled in these stories. Give someone the power to shoot lethally explosive kinetic force from their index finger (and never mind how such a thing makes any sense whatsoever - this is just making them all the more horrific if you bother to consider the alien/inhuman implications ) and you have made a true fucking monster.

We can at least take away peoples guns. We at least know guns are all the same.

Also, it’s just a fact that sufficient cunning is the superior form of fighting. You try to prevent or stop the fight altogether, either before or during the fight.

>>96117450 (OP)
Magic-users should be able to simply declare they've won the game and the GM is obligated to agree with them.

>>96138390
There’s a good book that treats wizards with the respect they deserve, but are still limited to their human reaction times and shit. I recommend it,

“The Warrior Heir”

The first three in the trilogy are bomb, the last two are fan fiction.

>>96139188
>The first three in the trilogy are bomb, the last two are fan fiction.
What’s the difference between the first three and the last two?

>>96119253
Reminds me of the obsession with Quirks in MHA, to be honest. Anyone else see it?

>>96138390
All of this, honestly. A single well placed decision, or move, is enough to win. The gun wins because it ends shit. So should magic. Wizards deal in ending the fight, not fighting.

>>96138390
Well, a lot of fiction struggles with this concept. It's one of the most common issues.

Life is basically a cover shooter, but if you want maximum heroics you have to have projectile weapons handled. Any superhero, or battle manga protag, that can simply be shot dead by the first thug to come along isn't much of a superhero. Typical sword fantasy still kind of has the same issue. If your glorious hero can simply be shot dead by one stray crossbow bolt, you've really shifted the needs and tone of the story around that. Similarly, yes, this adversely effects all ranged archetypes. Since it's the same issue. You see this a lot in video games too where being any ranged archetype is functionally useless because you can't kill before the enemy reaches you. If you reversed the equation, every melee player will suddenly scream blood. And a lot of people like the dream of melee heroics. Be it with sword, fist, baseball bat, or whatever. To enable that dream, you have to make other compromises. Part of this is also narrative concern. Consider this. If you made armor as effective in a story as it can be in life, things lose stakes pretty fast.

We're kind of hemmed in on the issue from multiple angles. That said, I wonder if the solution isn't simpler than people make it. Consider the following. An old multiplayer shooter called GUNZ The Duel handled this issue pretty well because there were no such things as discreet melee vs ranged archetypes. Your character is loaded for both at all times, and you are expected to be an expert at both. What you use really depended on the advantage of the present situation. Being forced to choose either range or melee specialty in a game is dreadfully common, and typically the unchosen path is utterly feeble to attempt without specializing.

Mortal terror of people being swordmages might be why everything sucks, honestly.

>>96152947
makes me think of a post I saw a while back from a player who played Burning Wheel, a game with a fairly realistic combat system, for the first time and had his character die when he rushed a bandit and got shot with a crossbow bolt. And the replies were just people going "yeah, you ran straight at a guy with a loaded lethal weapon, what did you expect to happen?"

>>96152996
> Player plays a well-designed game for the first time in their life and is absolutely shattered by it.
Sounds about right.

Don't know about Burning Wheel's design, but my ideal would be characters allowed to exceed at multiple things at once. The objection to it only makes sense in this forced situation where knowing literally any one thing precludes knowing anything else through all perpetuity. Because, yes, someone being extranormal breaks design, but the limits on competency are forced in the first place. God forbid I know how to read a book AND defend myself. Clearly, I just want to play a Mary Sue.

>>96117450 (OP)
>and DON'T use it to live as kings?
I imagine they try, and then fail spectacularly, because skill at magic doesn't translate into skill at rulership. They end up dealing with constant little rebellions and annoyances, along with shitty revenue streams from inefficient tax collecting. They insult foreign diplomats and nobles without realizing it, and of course running a kingdom cuts into time that they'd ordinarily be using to become better wizards, pondering their orbs or practicing their spells or whatever.

They get obsessive about things that benefit themselves but not the kingdom, like hiring adventurers to go after some artifact that the wizard wants for a spell but ends up beggaring the kingdom's coffers in pursing it.

And of course, it's not like there aren't OTHER powerful wizards in the world, ones who don't devote themselves to trying to run a kingdom and so have more time to devote to magical study and thus end up eclipsing them in power.

Eventually a combination of internal and external factors ensures that they're poisoned, backstabbed, or otherwise assassinated; or else a band of adventurers seek to free the kingdom from their inept rule; or else a foreign land goes to war with them and roflstops them thanks to understanding things like "logistics" and broadly being able to think in terms beyond the power of one individual person.

>>96151581
Funny you mention it, that one mango outright takes it into a eugenicist route where a wizard reveals they outright tried to execute every single non-wizard due to their "inferiority".

If you made magic as brutally effective as physics then wizards would be playing endless rocket tag and hiding behind wards and bunkers.

>>96153787
so 3.5e?

>>96153804
Only vaguely, since dee en dee has playdough physics.

I also hate when nature moves slow enough for warriors to dodge fucking lightning. Shouldn't they be constantly moving at impossible, invisible speeds, then? Why only when they're about to die? "Nuh uhh i deflect it". Jesus Christ.

>>96153828
it's a thing you get in some myths and legends, which is where it makes its way into fantasy. Tachibana Dōsetsu is the first example that comes to mind.

>>96153828
When did you realize that fiction holds the hands of martials way more than it holds the hands of casters?

This level of artificially enforced balance is just gross in the majority of cases if you have a big boner for realism.

>but it's a gaaaaaame
Real life is also a game. Survival is a game. It's not meant to be fair. Fuck you. Even RELIGION is a game.

>>96153870
>Artificially enforced balance
>Made up fairy tale shit
Pick one

>but muh real life is a gaem
Lol

>>96153870
>When did you realize that fiction holds the hands of martials way more than it holds the hands of casters?
everything fiction lets casters do is holding their hand from the perspective of realism though. How is letting one person dodge lightning more artificial then letting another person shoot lightning out of their hands?

>>96153902
In what sense? Which angle? Exploding fire that doubles as a wave of kinetic energy that somehow doesn't kill the martial in a one hit? Or said exploding fire coming from the caster's hands? One is realistic the other isn't.

>>96153882
If it's made to be fair, then it can be reverted back to being unfair, sorry. Faeries aren't always fair.

>>96153944
So what's unfair about some sword swinging dick being fast enough to dodge lightning then?

>>96153934
what's realistic about being able to wave your hands and conjure lightning?

>>96153902
>How is letting one person dodge lightning more artificial then letting another person shoot lightning out of their hands?
Well, for one, the martial's body/muscles are stuck in three dimensions, and it's hard to justify it moving faster than 300,000km per second, which is how fast lightning moves... ...while in the case of the wizard the lightning isn't truly coming from his hands, but higher dimensions enforced by silly willy alien beings who think it's funny if people see it coming from peoples' hands. This is more likely than energy within three dimensions somehow not ripping the caster apart.

The martial defying physics in three dimensions is a lot more absurd than spontaneous energy coming from another, unseen point in space, not truly tethered to the caster. It would also explain working around conservations of mass, like with shapeshifting spells.

Yes I'm thinking too much, but it's often ignored that a caster is just... some human person.

>>96153934
It's the former. The fighter miraculously surviving. It's realistic because, although rare, it does in fact happen in real life.

Like folk who have survived falling tens of thousands of feet after bailing out of a plane. Is it likely? No. But it happens, so it's not impossible.

>>96153952
Because that's not how lightning works, and you've suddenly declared yourself the Flash by assuming you can dodge it. But you're only the Flash when you want to dodge it... How is that fair? It's overwhelmingly, childishly circumstantial. It only happens when it happens.

>>96153988
But it's not unfair that some dink pretends he has power over lightning when and if he decides, without any backlash to him for standing so damn close to a massive electric discharge. That's what your assertion is?

>>96153986
>It's realistic because, although rare, it does in fact happen in real life.
Okay but now you're cherry picking. It's not the norm. People have been struck by lightning and have survived, yes, but no one has moved fast enough to get out of the way unless they somehow predicted it before it happened, which isn't actually dodging anything.

>>96153980
>and it's hard to justify it moving faster than 300,000km per second, which is how fast lightning moves

No it's not. 300,000 km/sec would be the speed of light (more or less). Lightning moves much slower than that.

You are confusing the FLASH of lightning with the actual bolt of electricity, which travels at a considerably more modest 120 m/s

>>96153999
>It's not the norm
True, but it's considerably more normal than someone shooting lightning from their fingertips through nothing more than willpower.

>>96153995
>But it's not unfair that some dink pretends he has power over lightning when and if he decides
See >>96153980 it might just be an illusion.

>>96154001
Oh joy, you've now made things even worse for yourself.

>>96154001
>120 m/s
*meant to say km/s. Mea culpa. Still much, much slower than light.

>>96154015
See >>96153980, it doesn't actually come from their hands. That makes no sense. It would rip their hands apart. Shapeshifting spells would double as explosions, without some sort of mass-dimensional storage.

>>96154020
So you agree it's equally arbitrary then and down more to personal preference. Thank you.

>>96154001
>>96154024
A lightning bolt's speed varies, but it generally travels at about 220,000 miles per hour (approximately 354,000 kilometers per hour or 98,400 meters per second). This is considerably slower than the speed of light, which is around 186,282 miles per second.

But this is pointless since it's still not possible to dodge without some sort of prescience.

>>96154030
>it doesn't actually come from their hands
No, it actually does. It may originate from some other dimension or whatever, but the actual bolt of electricity does in fact channel through the caster's body.

>>96154043
>But this is pointless since it's still not possible to dodge without some sort of prescience.

Skill issue.

>>96154049
Okay but it's not the caster's body, it's just an arbitrarily decided exit point. A spontaneous combustion on a random spot makes more sense than a fireball from the hands. The sheer arbitrariness of where magic comes from in 99.99% of fiction points to it being arbitrarily made, or enforced. It's not evolutional.

He's right. The overall effectiveness of application matters. Why throw around firestorms when you can just... mind control people? If you can telekinetically throw rocks, why not telekinetically sever an enemy's optical nerves? Even a small spell can have better reach or efficiency than some big obnoxious spell.

>>96154061
>A spontaneous combustion on a random spot makes more sense than a fireball from the hands
The sense is makes is frankly irrelevant, that's not how it's depicted in most settings.

>It's not evolutional.
I mean this is a nonstarter too, many settings have humans not having evolutionary origins either. They were sculpted from clay by the gods or something. If their origins aren't natural, then their innate abilities don't have to be either.

If it's possible to learn how to conjure lightning even though it should by rights rip your body apart, why should it not be possible to learn how to dodge it even though doing so should rip your body apart?

>>96154093
>mind control people?
Usually requires constant reinforcement, hence why it's better to just get people to agree to what you want.

>>96154093
Magic as it was reputed to work in our histories were often chalked up to weaponized coincidence or circumstance. Suddenly dropping dead from a heart attack, getting hit on the head by a rock accidentally, etc. The ability to kill someone from the safety of your basement, a thousand miles away, in total anonymity, is significantly more terrifying than any sniper could ever hope to be. That's a war ending, or war starting, type of power. Even the implications of just how you're causing such things to happen should scare the magician (if they're actually aware), and it could be likened to paying an unseen assassin. Sorcery was synonymous with assassination for millennia.

>>96118070
>>96118067
Oh it's just puckee looking for an excuse to spam again.

>>96154097
>I mean this is a nonstarter too
Well, it's one or the other. Something either comes about unintelligently, or intelligently.
>many settings have humans not having evolutionary origins either. They were sculpted from clay by the gods or something. If their origins aren't natural, then their innate abilities don't have to be either.
That's acceptable. The gods, or whatever powers that be, are intelligences. If a mermaid evolved to look like the Little Mermaid, then you know something intelligent made it that way. Otherwise they'd look fat and hairless and blubbery to account for the cold depths of the oceans, because evolution is an overly sophisticated blind idiot (a la Azathoth) who doesn't actually care if you evolve into a shithole bottleneck, or end up like giraffes.
>If it's possible to learn how to conjure lightning even though it should by rights rip your body apart, why should it not be possible to learn how to dodge it even though doing so should rip your body apart?
Presumably because moving muscles =/= plasma being plasma. Lightning bolts can be five times as hot as the sun...

>>96117703
>This is my first post on this board
Well do you think you're fooling?

>>96154103
In some fictions mind control is like a stamp. Once you're stamped you are fucked.

Superpowers, and this includes superpowered notions of magic, make no sense without some architect. This is why "the gods" are necessary.

In real life mind control is mental willingness. Once you're sucked into a cult you are fucked.

>>96154115
Even a roided ass bodybuilder isn't safe from a bad trip and fall. The people who make the accidents happen... win.

>>96154161
Sure, but broadly, that's not the case.

>>96154206
Like I said, arbitrary limitations, or lack thereof. It's as fair or as unfair as the powers decide.

>>96117450 (OP)
... ok?

>>96117450 (OP)
Monty Cook, get the fuck out of my life, please.
I'm still not over what you did to 3e, you cunt (not like 2e was Shakespeare, but still-).
Having to share the same planet with Cypher should be taken as a personal insult.

>>96117450 (OP)
If magic exists in the setting then it IS part of the rules of reality. There isn't anything being bent.

>>96117553
second post best post

>>96138390
I only want magic that is "OP" enough for obnoxious tacticool gun faggots to take an L.

>>96154845
I mean, what you just said has sent countless threads into autistic shit flinging contests.

“Fiction is real within itself, therefore it has fictional reality, or physics, within itself.”
“Noooo- it’s fiction- it doesn’t have to be physics- noooo-“
“But all stories are stories because of physics, or more accurately, causality!”
“Noooooo- causality doesn’t exist in my world because I said so- noo-“

People still don’t understand that fiction isn’t omnipotent or limitless.

>>96154030
Does it come from their meatbrain? Why is their physical brain capable of manipulating higher forces less bull than the other guys physical muscles doing it? The wizard is not a spirit or angel or ghost. He's a meatman.

>>96154886
By one autist who thinks saying "fiction is physics" makes him sound profound instead of sounding like a retard, yes

>>96155112
I think that’s more of a you issue.

>>96155237
Considering he can't help but spam this shit for years, I don't think the one having the issue is me since I can accept magic is just a tool when it comes to ttrpgs

>>96155283
Idk I’ve been seeing a fag screech “omg stooop wonderfag stooooooooop” for years too. Maybe you both deserve each other.

>he still thinks wonder and mystery have nothing to do with magic
NGMI

>>96117450 (OP)
40k solved that issue

>>96155305
Think that might be you, since you seem to assume everyone who finds him an annoying retard is the same person hounding him for years. I just saw him melting down in several separate threads the past few weeks now, so I'm just here shitposting abut how silly casterfags are. Though honestly, I'd like to try a game that has a magic system that actually feels robust instead of slapdash someday, like maybe Ars Magica.

>>96155369
I think you’re both mutually mentally ill, yes. You’re both unhealthily obsessive.

>>96155369
>I just saw him melting down in several separate threads the past few weeks now
You mean the threads where we kept trying to explain to the epistemology fag what science/physics is? Is that the same person? The guy who rages against science? He’s a Christian or something.

>>96155376
Might want to look into the mirror there, pal

>>96155386
Shit if I know. I just know some dumbass opened like three threads asking a vague question about magic, and then starts calling people idiots because they don't believe that magic is wonder, or physics, or psychology, or whatever else hippie crap he goes on about. And in at least two of those threads some autist shows up to respond to like a baker's dozen posts at a time, and that the former is convinced he's at war with the latter in some kind of retarded 4chan feud.

I just find I fucking weird that anyone can pretend to care about "magic" this much to the effect of having people nickname him whenever they think he's showing up. Like, magic is literally whatever you make up for the story or the game, right? Why get in a tizzy over it?

>>96155422
Listen. It’s clearly you, buddy.

>>96155426
Who? Who am I clearly, friend?

>>96155430
You’re calling me him so I’m calling you you. There is no lack of mental illness here.

>>96155432
You who? Me you? Or you him?

>>96155422
>Like, magic is literally whatever you make up for the story or the game, right? Why get in a tizzy over it?
That was actually his original argument. “Magic is whatever the fuck”, and then someone went “no, magic isn’t whatever the fuck, it can be others things too!”, and OP is like “…yes?”. You underestimate the ability to argue for the sake of arguing.

>>96155451
I do feel there's a strong difference between saying "magic can encompass our understanding of physics in the setting" and making a rather strong declarative "magic IS physics", but you're right, most of this stuff looks like it's been arguing over semantics and misapplications of words. It's really confusing as fuck trying to read any of it.

>>96154845
Only if you insist upon Monism and invariance being applied to settings specifically designed to adhere to other understandings of the world.

>>96154886
And people also still refuse to understand that you don't need to be limitless to adhere to models of reality other than physicalist monism. Declaring the counter-arguments from the days it was in contention true is but the bluntest.

>>96155316
The point actually argued is that they are not REQUIRED and thus particular meanings of the word "magic" that are objective properties are valid.

>>96155305
>Idk I’ve been seeing a fag screech “omg stooop wonderfag stooooooooop” for years too
The posting styles diverge far more than the outright pasta-spamming of Wonderfaggot.

>>96155386
>You mean the threads where we kept trying to explain to the epistemology fag what science/physics is?
According to your retarded prescriptive definitions that intentionally dismiss the etymology, which is funny given that using said etymology in the exact same manner is the basis of arguing "magic" must be a fuzzy non-thing.

>>96155422
>And in at least two of those threads some autist shows up to respond to like a baker's dozen posts at a time
Well, I'm a NEET with nothing better to do, so I may as well try to be thorough in providing counter-arguments.

>>96155451
"Magic MUST BE whatever the fuck" and "magic is a very wide range of particular things" are not the same position, as well demonstrated by insisting on the synonymy with "wonder" inside the context of the fiction to the active refusal that one arguing against a particular definition used by it can simply be wrong.

>>96155451
>That was actually his original argument. “Magic is whatever the fuck”
No, it is not. His argument is literally that it doesn't exist and that all forms of it are just a viewpoint of ignorance about an aspect of real world physics, thus the whole magic is psychology spiel he'll go on. He literally doesn't consider it to be something that can exist in any fashion anywhere ever, not even spellcraft is magic despite it being one of the few concrete definitions of the word (incantations and rituals).

He also confuses and conflates multiple definitions of physics, science, and other words into totalizing idiosyncratic definitions that make it seem like he's a nonEnglish speaking autist who fell down an /x/ style rabbit hole except its "science" and not woowoo.

Youre sanitizing his arguments to be more normal than they actually are, dropping all the weird parts that reveal him to be a fuckwit.

>>96153870
>When did you realize that fiction holds the hands of martials way more than it holds the hands of casters?
Play a game call NOITA and come back and say that again.

>>96155451
>>96155478
Magic being "magic", not Magic™, is what was pissing people off. Even though magic has always been a personal marketing ("well, in MY setting, magic is...") war, or opinion. "It's not magic, it's Magick!", "no it's a miracle!", etc. Magic is in the quotation marks, magic-by-any-other-name, etc.

What happens when the Magic™ confronts something that is even more magical ("magical") than it? It's kind of like that.

>>96157975
Say magic again

>What happens when the Magic™ confronts something that is even more magical ("magical") than it? It's kind of like that.
Apologies, I don't get what you're talking about there, but it feels like rage bait.

>>96158062
I'm confused. Are you goading me into a fist fight?

>>96158085
Are you interpreting it as such?

>>96155991
You give me a headache.

>>96157975
>Magic being "magic", not Magic™, is what was pissing people off.
To be specific, "magic" being synonymous with "wonder" pushed to the exclusion of any other meaning of the word is what's pissing us off. It's not "Magic™", it's "Magic (noun)". Ignoring the other meanings in common use to prescribe your etymological autism is simply wrong.

>Even though magic has always been a personal marketing ("well, in MY setting, magic is...") war, or opinion.
You keep steadfastly refusing to accept any notion that "in my setting" establishes a particular meaning for the context that disagreement with is simply wrong.

>"It's not magic, it's Magick!", "no it's a miracle!", etc.
And in Elfgame, we are allowed to declare the "hair-splitting" or whatever else you wish to demean this as objectively correct.

>What happens when the Magic™ confronts something that is even more magical ("magical") than it?
What happens is that totalizing midwits like you are simply wrong within the context, because the adverb meaning you insist upon does not apply. And that's assuming the "more magical" thing even appears in the first place!

>>96160284
>"magic" being synonymous with "wonder"
Hard to avoid when mystery/wonder is what birthed religion, and religion is quite indistinguishable from magic, especially stage magic logic. All religion contains essences of mysticism, so too. It's unavoidable, really. If wonder and mystery make magic, and religion, then ignorance is surely the greatest magic of all. Faith does not require truth. It's a form of art.

>>96161640
Hi wonderfag

>>96161768
Hi,

>>96161768
>>96161772

>>96161640
>Hard to avoid when mystery/wonder is what birthed religion, and religion is quite indistinguishable from magic, especially stage magic logic.
Trivial to avoid in the counterfactual where the religion, or whatever other model of superstition-in-real-history one wishes to use, is just objectively correct.

>If wonder and mystery make magic
Not in the vast, VAST majority of the fantasy settings. They tend to consider "magic" to be things relating to qualitatively-different-from-normal-life supernatural forces.

>>96155327
>40k solved that issue
Why, because psyker powers open you up to potentially getting your mind and soul munched by a daemon?

>>96161914
>Trivial to avoid in the counterfactual where the religion, or whatever other model of superstition-in-real-history one wishes to use, is just objectively correct.
And it's trivial to do a counter example to your "counterfactual" such as with the Dwemer in the Elder Scrolls or the elves in Tolkien's works.

>>96166582
Which is refusing to engage with the counterfactual, and thus Not Even Wrong.

>>96166589
"There isn't even a word to describe the Dwarven view on divinity. They were atheists on a world where gods exist. They are Tamriel's biggest mystery and there should be no end to their enigma…" - Kirkbride

You still fail to understand that what is a god is just a matter of perception. The Judeo-Christian God could be real in our world, and it would still just be "some sufficiently advanced or powerful extra dimensional being" to the physicist. To the Christian, it is He, Yahweh, Jehovah, God, the Father, the All, etc.

Different ways of looking at, and different words used to describe, the same thing... How is that so hard to understand? This extends to fiction.

>>96166642
You're continuing to not address the counterfactual on its own terms.

>You still fail to understand that what is a god is just a matter of perception.
According to your insistance on IRL physicalist monism, the history of which is precluded by common elements of fantasy fiction.

>This extends to fiction.
No it does not. Addressing scenarios where specific observable-in-the-context properties of "the divine" are pinned down as the only meaning in use and by which the deities self-identify is highly meaningful and a source of much entertainment.

>>96166642
>what is a god is just a matter of perception
Except when it comes to traditional games. Which is one of those things that does matter when it comes to say a game where you're borrowing a deity's power like D&D, or one where you are a self-proclaimed god like Godbound. Helps a lot to have a clear, concise declaration up front so the game doesn't get bogged down by the one guy deciding to go fedoratheist to be annoying.

>>96166684
>>96166707
Listen, all I'm saying is that there's -always- going to be some cringe (hypothetical) "um ackchyually the gods are just AI and those 'demons' are clearly just interdimensional aliens.." nerd-ish type explanation. "The wizard's shapeshifting isn't defying the conservation of mass, idiot, the spell is swapping mass it in and out seamlessly using five dimensional storage spaces... the wizard just doesn't KNOW this... since it's fucking MAGIC and it's a fucking FANTASY game you FUCKhead.". See how this works?

>>96166784
You're not really saying anything that people don't already know, bro. Some people are capable of just accepting something unnatural is happening for a bullshit excuse like "magic", some people are autists that need to have some sort of explanation that makes sense to THEM no matter how much convoluted bullshit they need to invent to get there in the first place. And that happens both irl and with their fantasy games.

So what? People already know this.

>>96166784
They. Are. Wrong. In. The. Context. That is what it MEANS to be a "counterfactual", the foundations of that reasoning true to us being contradicted has NO BEARING on the internals of the fiction, only contradiction with itself and the far looser requirements of general logic.

>>96166802
I think you're autistic. He's saying there might be some viewpoint in a fiction that doesn't see the gods as the gods, or magic as magic. They might use different words for them.

>>96117450 (OP)
>as it should be
Loooooot of assumption wrapped up in these few words.

>>96166845
He cited a DIFFERENT context from a DIFFERENT fiction. He keeps inserting the reasoning into specific conditions specifically constructed to make it inapplicable.

He is in fact trying to exclude any usage of "magic" or "divine" or sundry other common in fantasy fiction terms with narrow enough definitions to WRITE A FUCKING GAME with.

>>96166172
And because of that psykers are routinely killed before they can become powerful or put into programs where they are brainwashed into compliance or made to forcefully comply through various devices or labotomies and an entire galaxy wide organisation where weeding out and killing potentially dangerous or noncompliant psykers is one of their main duties

>>96117450 (OP)
Wicked image btw

>>96166886
>No its NOT it IS NOT he is FUCKING
I think you're having a mental breakdown

>>96168581
"Might be" remains quite a different sentiment from responding to "Which is refusing to engage with the counterfactual, and thus Not Even Wrong." with >>96166642. Again, he is in fact trying to exclude narrow enough to write a game with definitions, because that's what insisting upon ambiguity in intentionally non-ambiguous constructed scenarios does.

Mod thread.

>>96117450 (OP)
In these systems I just assume everyone is affected by the magic in the air. When a fighter jumps 30 feet and swing his giant sword through your skull 3 times before you can even open your mouth I assume he's not just a normal human.

I Can't Believe It's Not Magic