Ancient Secrets Edition
>Previous Thread
>>96101481
>Pastebin
https://pastebin.com/WiCHizn0
>Mediafire
https://mediafire.com/folder/s9esc6u7ke8k5/CofD
>Mega I
https://mega.nz/folder/ePQ1BKhJ#RCosRCh59Ki2Mpb1M9H3Uw
>Mega II (also containing fanmade games)
https://mega.nz/folder/ZbQ2zLJA#DOT-3df6rS2lLet4_RmqJQ
>WoD5 Mega
https://mega.nz/folder/7rQQ1LbQ#16_AiXVGo0P3_rVOJuoZyA
>STV content folders
https://pastebin.com/9i9zhydQ
>General Creation Kit
https://mega.nz/#F!FWJgBTbb!f7d5rARWHYzuI8-8aI-Bxw
>Ideas: BJ Zanzibar's WoD
http://167.99.155.149/
>Anders Mage Page
http://mage.gearsonline.net/anders/
>White Wolf Wiki:
https://whitewolf.fandom.com/wiki/Main_Page

>Thread Question:
Have you ever used time travel/travel to alternate timelines in your games? How did it go?

>>96118229 (OP)
Posting for new thread, my little tzimisce design

>>96118245
The bright yellow is really nice.

>>96118229 (OP)
Which splat is most guilty of we wuzzing?
>>96118245
Lovely tzim

>>96118229 (OP)
Closest we got was implied use of time-whammies to recover extinct plant (Silphium). Although more plausible explanation was keeping the seeds stashed away through the ages.

>>96118260
>Which splat is most guilty of we wuzzing?

>>96118286
Kek wtf

>>96118286
>Silphium
I see my brother is not using the traditional method of coitus interruptus

>>96118186
>Do you really think poor marketing is the only and/or primary reason why the New World of Darkness failed to keep the World of Darkness audience?
No. Big reason? Yes.

>>96118229 (OP)
>TQ

Not really, I like having a single timeline/universe for our games. We did have to retcon a couple-shot once because it did things contradictory to the plot of another more important game, but that didn't involve time travel or anything like that.

Oh we did once find a mirror in a Chantry that showed us alternate, mortal versions of ourselves but there was no confirmation of if it was alternate timeline or hypothetical future or desires or what.

>>96118245
Such a foul fella :) love his szlachta too

>>96118245
Finally, a freaky Tzimisce and not a benign plastic surgeon that looks like an anime girl.

How much variety is there in the ugliness of (OWoD) Nosferatu? Do they all look like zombie Count Orloks or if there room for something freakier?

>>96118644
Orloks are just the most common look, there are plenty of others.

>>96118644
there's some variety, but it's "random" (up to ST), Nos don't get to decide how exactly their clan curse manifests - can look like shriveled apple, can look like leprosy, can look like E.T.

>>96118229 (OP)
I'm looking into running a WoD game. Is it feasible to play a game where the players are a mix of vampires and werewolves? I'm planning to have 3 players, and I'll let the minrority player know that they'll be either a werewolf in a vampire story or a vampire in a werewolf story. Anybody tried it?

>>96118808
Vampires and Werewolves are in totally different weightclasses, they're also strictly opposed to one another in the lore with no goals in common. You may be better off waiting for Curseborne if you want to run a game like that.

>>96118808
oWoD or CofD? One is more feasible than the others.

>>96118808
Short-term it can work, but mechanically there's one major snag you have to overcome, and there's no easy or fair way to do it.
Vampires burn in daylight, werewolves don't. You basically have to give the vampire players a lot of privilege in order for the story to work. Like NOTHING happens during the day. You could allow vampire players to play as their ghouls during the day, but that introduces balance issues that are effectively unsolvable.

If you want a werewolf/vampire mixed game, have your group play Abominations instead.

>>96118808
Seconding >>96118863, which WoD?

oWoD is a fuck no. They did almost everything possible to make them incompatible lorewise and mechanically. Werewolf is about blending things and having weird grab bag spirit powers, whereas Vampire's powerset and weaknesses skew them more towards intrigue and keikaku. In combat the vampire players should probably just pull out their phones. In the official lore they're supposed to hate each other and rarely communicate, let alone work together, because Werewolves got their start in WoD as a way to railroad your players into staying in the city. Not to mention, oWoD is bad at crossover balance.

nWoD/CofD... actually you could swing that. There still isn't much of a lore precedent for them working together, but Werewolves and Vampires there actually compliment each other's weaknesses fairly well. Vampires can provide the mind-fuckery and intrigue-focused powers Werewolves have little of, and Werewolves can even give Vamps fringe benefits for joining the pack. The combat power gap is lesser, but still present. And CofD has smoother and more universal rules for supernatural powers of different splats interacting. The main issue is they're geared towards very different things. Werewolves are all about teamwork and killing big crazy things with said teamwork. Vampires are all about controlling, manipulating, and outlasting their foe. It's much more viable here but only relatively, expect lots of jank and imbalance trying to run even a two types of supernatural story.

>>96118808
Suggestion:
every player gets a vampire AND a werewolf to play at different times. You may be loosely allied because reasons, but each group usually does its own thing.

There are Vampires capable of taking on Werewolves in combat 1v1. It's called Zulo form.
There have been some flimsy alliances between Vamps and Wolves... but they usually dislike each other. The latter hate anything that is "unnatural" (which sometimes includes natural things but let's not get into that right now).

>>96118954
>It's called Zulo form.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Bro stop taking wiki articles seriously.

>>96118604
Are Gigeresque tzimisce acceptable? I always imagined H R was a tzimisce or at the very least a few really admired his aesthetic.

>>96118980
I'm fine with it. Tzimisce produce a good amount of sexual deviants as is, incorporating sexual imagery to something otherwise fucked up and freaky is on-brand to them. I simply have a personal axe to grind against the kind of person who wants to play a Tzimisce that treats Vicissitude as wish-fulfillment biomancy.

I'm not even conceptually opposed to Tzimisce who can walk around town without violating the Masquerade, as long as there's something freaky and alien about them on the inside, or that they only let out when there are no unwanted witnesses. A Tzimisce that looks normal but still has that alien mindset is a-okay by me.

>>96118260
I would say mages, every mage tradition and convention book seems to start with how in the ancient days, their predecessors were the first inventors, wise men, explorers, etc.

>>96119049
Comes with the territory of every mage thinking they and their own are the most important person in the world, I suppose.

>>96118954

Anon, Zulo on its own grants no aggravated soak. You're still stuck at your Fortitude rating. And if you don't have any dots in Fortitude, you're basically made of wet tissue paper as far as werewolves are concerned. Also, don't pretend to be able to summarize the actual reason behind the vampire v. werewolf beef if you don't actually know it.

(Not even vampires like vampires. For them, it's a cutthroat rivalry thing that they assume that everyone is like. That Garou are not and view them as abhorrent for holding that view is still just scratching the surface of those issues.)

>>96118954
>this is what tzitrash actually believes

>>96118954
No anon it’s called being a 6th gen Brujah with Fortitude. The lore does a pretty bad job of explaining how werewolves don’t just fuck the shit out of vampires past and present but it largely comes down to vampires staying the fuck away from wolves and letting their armies of mortals and ghouls they're hiding behind actually fight wolves with flaming torches and sheer numbers. Anyone with the right Blood Magic and plenty of powers can also really fuck with a wolf, for instance Dementation could be used to get a pack to destroy each other, while Obfuscate and Obtenebration could let you at least escape. But realistically unless you’re fucking old and low gen and geared towards being a combat blender it’s fairly unlikely any competition between a werewolf and a vampire on who can hit each other more until they die goes in the vampire’s favor. Vampires beat wolves because they’re smart and largely don’t fight wolves themselves.

>>96118808
Use Gangrel as your token werewolf in a vampire game, and Shadow Lord (for their aesthetics and mentality) as your token vampire in a werewolf game. Trying to run a crossover as your first game is a terrible idea.
>>96118882
>You could allow vampire players to play as their ghouls during the day, but that introduces balance issues that are effectively unsolvable.
Having vampires play their ghouls during the day is the common solution to all crossovers.
They're supposed to be the replaceable patsy splat, not frontliner of walking toolbox, that's werewolf and mage specifically.
And power imbalance is inherent to any crossover period.
No supernatural can match a werewolf if combat using just basic template without powers. No supernatural can offer as many different solutions as a mage on as short a timespan.
Vampire's strength is the ease of procreation/minion creation and to an entirely reasonable limit being easily replaceable as PC by their offspring and thralls when they get killed/are unavailable for daytime events.

>>96118980
Gigeresque Nosferatu are better. The Tzim are only poseurs.
>You only adoptend the ugliness. I was born in it, molded by it.

>>96119252
The self-aggrandizing explains so much about the clan.

>>96119304
Why not both?
In our games main seven clans get four clan disciplines.

For Nosferatu it's Vicissitude.

>>96119252
>>96119324
I'm gonna be honest I don't think Zulo even lets Tzimisce go toe to toe with other combat focused vampires.

Tzimisce are minion masters primarily, and weird ones since they can buff their minions significantly but also have no in-clans that help them directly keep them in line, meaning they have to lean more heavily into the blood bond than say a Ventrue would. Which is a fun dynamic honestly, if a bit unwieldy for player characters since a lot of your power is in having a fuckload of creepy guys that do your dirty work for you, and that can slow things to a crawl. Granted they can also pull support duty in a Sabbat pack deep enough in the vinculum to trust the tzi to essentially buff them.

>>96118305
Weirdly enough, there were enough loose threads and lore details in that book that I'm sad it got shitcanned. There was some genuinely interesting stuff in there.

>>96118644
There's a lot of variety too it. Anything from orlock, to looking like a burn victim, to being a fucking a fucking shark-man is possible.
>>96118660
>but it's "random" (up to ST), Nos don't get to decide how exactly their clan curse manifests
*Unless they're player characters. Players get full control of their Nos's appearance and can buy merits for various nos-exclusive advantages(like having all the teeth in their mouth be fangs, armored hide instead of skin, etc,)

>>96118336
I think 2e could have had a new audience if they tried to sell it as Dark Souls style vague lore instead of "toolbox". It would also be more accurate, I think they were clearly trying to build up deliberate mysteries rather than just leaving things open, with stuff like what happened to the Underworld, what are the Strix, the Seventh Dragon, shit like that.

>>96118659
You just know this is some leperous dude using obfuscate to bait info out of someone.

The road trip begins

>>96119844
>First thing the book hits you when you open it

>>96119849
i'm imagining a 6'6 trucker wearing a shirt with this on it and it's killing me

>>96117708
That's something my ST is considering; IF I can convince him to give WoD another try.

>>96118429
>So recreating Fnaf isnt that crazy?
Not at all.

Post waifus from your past campaigns.

I’m looking at werewolves fetishes and I stumbled upon this:

>Sanctuary Chimes

>Gnosis 6
>When activated, this miniature tubular bell emits chimes into the wind. No spirit may materialize within 100 feet unless invited to do so. This fetish usually protects caerns or the homes of pregnant Kinfolk. One activation lasts for a full day. To create sanctuary chimes, one must bind a spirit of protection or a turtle-spirit into the tubular bell.

Why do spirits go after pregnant kinfolk?

In the context of woof-leech relationship discourse >>96118808, I feel it's as good time as any to make a public reminder that anarchs used to be fun, not just retarded.

>>96120414
Not every spirit is benign or harmless.

>>96120414
Because a good chunk of spirits are banes

>>96120515
BANES???

>>96120499
>>96120515
It’s obvious, but I was just wondering what they have against pregnant kinfolk in particular

>>96120674
I suspect that protecting the pregnant kin isn't the goal so much as protecting the fetus. You wouldn't want to get changeling'd or damien omen'd.

>>96120674
It's less something specific (although nascent spirit affinite is a delightful treat for some Banes, I'm sure) and more protecting the unborn(s).

Every kid is a prospective warrior for the apocalypse war, and procreating with humans is a lot more time, effort and resource-consuming than seeding wolf packs, so werewolves that can try and ward off anything that could cause taint or miscarriage.

>>96120774
>protecting the unborn(s)
from general problems and complications that can be caused by spirits.

>>96118808
It is feasible and common interest of STs. They even said, to quote the books "The White Wolf Stormtroopers won't knock down your door and take away your dice."

>>96120798
>"The White Wolf Stormtroopers won't knock down your door and take away your dice."
Boy, that sentence sure is funny to read in hindsight.

Have you ever included a false version of a setting-important character in your game? False Caines, false Perfect Metis, that kind of thing. And did your players fall for it?

>>96120984
>It's the Satanic Panic
>Black Dog studios are actually making games that turn you into infernalists by making contracts with banes in the cards or whatever
>Silver Fangs decide that Garou should intervene where needed
>Be random nerd
]>Playing the new edition of Werebat: The Genocide with your mates
>About to roll the dice
>Actual fucking white-furred werewolves barge in and steal your game muttering about spiritual purity or some shit and "this is why we should bring back the impergium, look at these people."
>Can't remember much next morning (Thanks to the delirium), then it hits you
"DUDE SOME WHITE WOLF STOOMTROOPERS STOLE OUR FUCKING GAME"

>>96120798
Lore nazis roasted by the lore creators. Perfect.

>>96121043
kek

>>96118604
Thanks! I like to think that all Tzimisce (besides Old Clan of course) are on the same trajectory as the Eldest, though may never reach its heights. So they inevitably transform into nightmares, beyond even other vampires. I feel that treating vicissitude like plastic surgery is a mistake, since it's something far, far beyond that.
>>96118481
Glad you like him! That little critter is probably the closest thing to a "friend" he has(or as close an utterly enslaved ghoul can be called a friend), having been a companion of his from even before his Embrace, as back in the circus they both were performing freaks.

>>96119433
A brujah fightard can kick the shit out of anything

So the talk at the end of the last thread about Mannikens and fleshlights reminded me of the single squickiest thing that ever happened in the campaign I used to play in.

So we PCs were a detective agency, and we got hired by this woman whose autistic young adult son had recently died on the job as a night watchman in a department store. The police were being very vague with details, and she wanted to know what happened.

So we talked to the people in the store, and they said that the guy was found dead on the floor with his pants down; and they'd overheard police saying that he appeared to have been strangled. Furthermore, one of the mannequins was missing from the display that he was found next to. So we're thinking "Ok; he was groping and jacking off to a mannequin, she came to life for some reason and took issue with it and killed him. Hardly the strangest thing we've ever seen, but we should probably find her."

So we start asking around in the neighborhood to see if anyone saw her, and it turned out there had been a late night incident in a coffee shop right across the street. Some hysterical woman had run in, locked herself in a bathroom stall sobbing, and then ran back out. When the stall was checked, a severed penis was found in the bowl.

(Cont).

>>96121417
So we're like "wait... was the autistic guy missing his penis? No? Then where the hell did it come from?"

So we go to a changeling contact and ask her to look into stories about mannequins turning into living women. Then we go to our police contact to see if they know anything.

Turns out, the DNA matched a man who'd bled to death years ago out on the east coast after getting his penis severed. Some other guy had apparently come home early and found this guy in this state and had called 911. His wife had also gone missing and was never found.

Finally our changeling friend gets back to us with a story about some dorky window dresser on the east coast who'd fallen in love with a mannequin who came to life and would remain so as long as he continued to love her.

And that's when it finally sank through our thick skulls. This guy had come home early and caught his wife cheating; and in that moment of betrayal, he stopped loving her and reverted... while the other guy was still balls-deep inside her.

>>96121219
>though may never reach its heights
Not with that attitude, fledgeling.
The Eldest is irrelevant! They who swaddle themselves in denial and supplication before him - they are those will be overtaken and consumed by him, but there's truth: Vicssitude doesn't come from the Eldest, nor Caine, Vicissitude embraces all willing, all yearning for change, to evolve, to transcend!

A caress is enough for evolution to flourish, given a curious mind that casts off the fear and revulsion. It's more than a discipline, more than a power. It is beyond the thralldom of generations and vampirism itself. Elder or fledgeling, vampire or mortal, man or beast, empt your mind of denials, distractions, superstitions and fears, embrace evolution with all your existence, and you shall surpass the Eldest!

>>96121521
Well, I say they won't reach its heights because for every bit of progress the Tzimisce make in the fleshcraft, the Eldest advances a little bit further itself. Not to mention, Kupala is always crouching just out of sight, waiting to take it all.

>>96121521
You would think that Metamorphosis-endorsing Tzimisce licks would be more munchkiny in terms of personality rather than being a Hellraiser Cenobite exhibitionist

Getting some conversation about Inanimae last thread got me thinking and I want to go over a few ideas
>>Mannikins
>...Honestly, why are these guys meant to do?
If you go by the book, be vaguely mysterious and scheme ambiguously about something non-descript. But if you want to actually use them in a chronicle you can only use "nobody knows" as an answer so many times, so here's my idea. The Mannikins are defined by their deep fascination with human beings, they are schemers but their plots and intrigues center on making the world a safer, more comfortable place for humans and to this end they champion Krofting, seeking to bring the Inanimae into forms more compatible with humanity. The darker side of this is that some Mannikins take their fascination with humans too far, and try to keep them as ornaments and playthings as a sort of twisted role-reversal.

Another thing I want to bring up. If the guy I talked about the Paroseme's Frailty is still around, how does this sound as an alternate idea:
>Claustrophobia: Parosemes are never truly comfortable indoors, while they can tolerate spacious chambers and rooms with many windows, they must perform a willpower check to willingly enter an enclosed space (Difficulty varies depending on the nature of the area, some examples might be 6 for an ordinary basement, 8 for an abandoned crypt, and 10 for a narrow crawlspace) In addition, if a Paroseme is imprisoned in a claustrophobic location they lose one point of glamour per day until they are able to free themselves.
Not being able to enter at all on a failed willpower check might be a bit gamebreaking in its own right, so alternatively, maybe when they fail the willpower check they instead recieve a malus to their dice pools until they're able to get back out in the open?
>>96121417
>>96121461
That's fucked up, I love it. Really good way to use Mannikins in a way that's fucked up and twisted enough for the World of Darkness.

>get embraced by a Ventrue
>have to suffer this for your entire unlife

>>96121695
>That's fucked up, I love it.
And I miss it. I love the other stuff he runs now, but none of them get quite as dark as that campaign did.

Any oldheads? What was it like to play this in the 90s? I'm too timid and embarrassed of getting recorded on a Discord or whatever people use for tabletop rpgs use today. What was it like to be free to be cringe with people you knew in real life without fear of going viral on social media?

>>96121959
>Move to the middle east like every other elder
>Claim it's because of some beckoning to cover my tracks
Not! Any! More!

imagine what Technocratic street racing is like
cars going through time to win the race before it even began
cyborgs just fucking bolting down the street with no car
weird ass meat-car

>>96122146
>What was it like to be free to be cringe with people you knew in real life without fear of going viral on social media?
I do that every Friday and I'm in my 20s. Lots of people still play face-to-face.

>>96121695
>Claustrophobia: Parosemes are never truly comfortable indoors, while they can tolerate spacious chambers and rooms with many windows, they must perform a willpower check to willingly enter an enclosed space (Difficulty varies depending on the nature of the area, some examples might be 6 for an ordinary basement, 8 for an abandoned crypt, and 10 for a narrow crawlspace) In addition, if a Paroseme is imprisoned in a claustrophobic location they lose one point of glamour per day until they are able to free themselves.
Very appropriate suggestion! I always roleplay some claustrophobia and strong reluctance for entering windowless, shuttered and underground locations when I play wind, flight and storm-aspected characters anyway.
>Not being able to enter at all on a failed willpower check might be a bit gamebreaking in its own right, so alternatively, maybe when they fail the willpower check they instead recieve a malus to their dice pools until they're able to get back out in the open?
Not being able to enter a random place at all on a failed check seems fair to me, but if you're running a game and really need everyone present, reduced dice pools would be an agreeable alternative (with the Paroseme in question being very unhappy about the arrangement and trying to hurry things along and vacate the place at the earliest opportunity). More important thing is to ensure that krofted Paroseme are allowed to interact with their Anchor that might be located inside of such an enclosed space.

>>96122428
Not compliant with the consensus nor with Control's orders.
What you're describing sounds like reality deviant hooliganism, particularly of the (may Computer forgive me for uttering this word) Etherite variety.

>>96122428
Imagine the shit you could pull off as a Verbena
>*hits blunt*
>"What if I turned my blood into time
>What
>Like, my blood WAS time, and I could supercharge my regeneration to give me more time compared to everyone else
>...what if you get stabbed
>lol dunno, but I bet I could fuck up a techie by splashing my time-blood on him

>>96122146
More or less the same as today, just without smartphones and with way more paperwork and effort needed if you wanted suitable music and props. And without super thin-skinned political/tranny people, just normal sadists, schizophrenics, paranoiacs and conspiracy theorists.

>>96121642
Given how IRL transhumanism got co-opted by a bunch of autogynophile fetishists, the tzimisce are unfortunately realistic.

>>96122615
>jorge wants to be an ecstatic

>>96122428
>imagine what Technocratic street racing is like
>cars going through time to win the race before it even began
>cyborgs just fucking bolting down the street with no car
>weird ass meat-car
In practice it would be the racing of triathlon cyborg, a space fighter, a many limbed, many eyed, vaguely lovecraftian biorocket dinosaur thing, an irate suit in a normal fed car keeping up with them and shouting at them through a loudspeaker to stop behaving like bloody deviants, and another suit cheerfully running a HD feed and a betting hustle.

>>96121959
That breaks so many rules of Ventrue decorum you don't need to worry about it infecting the actual clan culture.

>>96122428
In the campaign I played in there was a street gang with really high-end electric vehicles. We verified that they were all college students in STEM fields. We suspected that they might be fledgling Technocrats but we never verified it.

Which splat should I, someone whose only significant experience with WoD was the vidya, run?

>>96118808
Fluffwise, you're going to want to use a lost cub, or possibly a ronin, to get along with Vampires. Not just because they won't be indoctrinated to murder them on sight, but because the goals of a garou not affiliated with the nation are going to be more about survival instead of saving the world (and fucking it up more in the process). You can find rules for them in the Outcasts book, which also gives them a humanity track of their own.

>>96123588
Vampire given it has more to draw on. Granted, we have almost every oWoD and nWoD book in the two Megas, so you really don't need to take our word for it. You can check out every version of the tabletop for free right now and draw your own conclusions.

What would you recommend for a vampire interested in spiritualism?
(As in actually being spiritual and dealing fairly with spirits instead of enslaving them with Voice of Command - maybe they are former kinfolk or from some other highly spiritual background, idk)

Are Dur-An-Ki and Old Clan Krainas unrelated to Kupala good, or are they also corruptive due to the nature of vitae?

And are there any canon ways in which a vampire could travel to the Umbra and back?
The only one that comes to mind right now is from Storytellers Vault..

>>96123856
>Are Dur-An-Ki and Old Clan Krainas unrelated to Kupala good
Yes. It's the modern koldunic "way of X" that're kupala corrupted. The irony is that the Kraina of the Well is less infernal than the modern ways, because well kraina puts the user in the driver seat vs demons while ways make you the servant of kupala.

>krainas
Do we have any more krainas other than Enoch and Well?

I stumbled upon them in the talmahera book but I don't know if there are more elsewhere.

>>96123856
Spirit thaum, don't try to be a flaky lil shit for no reason, just treat spirits well. Since you can get stuck in the spirit realm on Duality botches I see no reason why you can't make a ritual that purposefully transfers you between places, overlaying is just more convenient cause you have spirits already to act as your spies. Telyavs physically travel by default, but they're religion restricted.

Kolduns are in with the whole mentality, you aren't a vampire who interacts with spirits, you are a Slavic shaman that very inconsequentially happens to be a vampire.

And DAK is more or less restricted to Middle Easterners and some Africans.

>>96122551
it's a training exercise for the NWO to see if they can keep the masses from noticing the race

>>96121461
>>96121417
Gave me a fucking chuckle.

MAN the Coil of Zirnitra is so much fun at first blush, but then I tried to crunch the numbers and I felt seriously depressed.

>>96123588
Vampire

>>96124977
>Gave me a fucking chuckle.
That was not the reaction at the table (well, not from the male players anyway).

>>96125010
Fair a wince justifies it, but otherwise Its a good chuckle. I wish my GM would hit us with some weird shit like that.

The only thing we've recently had to deal with was one of the PC's getting his characters family raped to death for 'defying the rightful rulers of the city' so now we gotta find out what rightful rulers of the city did the raping.

>>96121417
>single squickiest thing that ever happened
How coddled are you? I mean, it's WoD, murder, rape, torture and gruesome dismemberment can happen practically every session if you play the right group, and like once a month for everyone else.

Cool story though.

>>96124996
It's a neat idea, but most supernatural merits just aren't worth the investment as a vampire. You need to have something very specific in mind.

What is the Lasombra's Abyss?

>>96125222
Whatever you want it to be, Anon.

>>96124805
That sounds... compliant enough.
Carry on then. Hopefully I get a chance to use the neural deletion matrix on a sleeper. I've been wanting to flashbang mindwipe someone since I joined.

>>96123588
which vidya?

>VTM Redemption
>VTM Bloodlines

>VTM New york, . A VN.
>VTM night road, ect. Like 4 text adventures.
>VTM Heartless lullaby. Not a full sized game.
>VTM Bloodhunt Free to play battle royalle.
>VTM Swansong. a heavily social skill single player RPG.
>VTM Justice: VR game.

>Hunter the Recconing series. 3 games. Gamecube era 4 player action game.

>Werewolf: The Apocalypse Heart of the forest. Tabletop style text heavy RPG.
>WTA: Earthblood. Janky action RPG AA budget.
>WTA Book of hungry names. Text adventure.
>WTA Purgatory. Text adventure.

>Wraith: The Oblivion Afterlife
>Wraith: The Oblivion - The Orpheus Device

>Mage the Ascention: Refuge. Text adventures.
>Vampire: The Masquerade - We Eat Blood

>>96125247
You've seen enough tentacle hentai, you know where this would be going...

Are there any autistic kindred in canon?

>>96125302
Every one of them is, Anon.

>>96125264
>>VTM New york, . A VN.
>>VTM night road, ect. Like 4 text adventures.
>>VTM Heartless lullaby. Not a full sized game.
>>VTM Bloodhunt Free to play battle royalle.
>>VTM Swansong. a heavily social skill single player RPG.
>>VTM Justice: VR game.
>>Werewolf: The Apocalypse Heart of the forest. Tabletop style text heavy RPG.
>>WTA: Earthblood. Janky action RPG AA budget.
>>WTA Book of hungry names. Text adventure.
>>WTA Purgatory. Text adventure.
>>Wraith: The Oblivion Afterlife
>>Wraith: The Oblivion - The Orpheus Device
>>Mage the Ascention: Refuge. Text adventures.
>>Vampire: The Masquerade - We Eat Blood
Any of these not dogshit? Tried a few VN and gladly forgot the names.

>>96125302
Sergei Voshkov
Clan Nosferatu
Sire Baba Yaga
Nature Fanatic
Demeanor Autist
Generation 5th
Embrace 1991 CE
...
Humanity 1
Willpower 10

>>96125349
Justice and Wraith Afterlife might be a good way to try VR

>>96125392
Don't have a headset, but thanks for recommendation.

>>96125302
>>96125374
One of the very first Ventrue characters had been an overgrown child that played with trains since 1800s.

Int 2, Wits 1, Conscience 0, Self-Control 0, Courage 0, Humanity 0, Engineering (Train) 5, you get the idea.

Ventrue fans SEEETHED at mere mention.

>>96118808
Self-replying here. Thanks for the advice, everyone. I'll do some more reading and see what, if anything, would justify such a crossover in the lore. Otherwise, I'll make something else up. I'm not too worried about mechanics, my players are very good roleplayers and wouldn't mind being either a werewolf with limited social options, or a vampire being mogged in combat by a werewolf. I think I'll run a shorter game, maybe Hunter: the Reckoning, to see how my group enjoys the system and modern-day horror genre.

>>96125151
>How coddled are you?
It was more the way that it unfolded. It's hard to explain.

>>96125587
Anon, fucks sake, save yourself a headache and just have one of the players play a Gangrel, they're vampire werewolves in all ways that matter.

Crossover only when both you and your players got used to Vampire and Werewolf.

>>96125617
>play a Gangrel, they're vampire werewolves
>[angry Abomination noises]

>>96125587
>I think I'll run a shorter game, maybe Hunter: the Reckoning, to see how my group enjoys the system and modern-day horror genre.
Check out Alien Hunger and the rest of 1e adventures, they do the intro job way better.

Reckoning is a thing in itself, and IMO not very good at introducing people, nor very good at starting at the ground level cause of that whole being given superpowers from shady overlords stuff and schlock movie action hero vibe.

>>96125587
>what, if anything, would justify such a crossover in the lore.
I mean, everyone hates the demonic so it could maybe work?

Or maybe something like Ventrue neonate stumbles upon the beginning Pentex rabbit hole when trying to expand their businesses post-Agoge, ends up meeting the only surviving garou from the conflict between that local Pentex front and a nearby caern, or something?
Toreador investigating the death of a talented environmentalist artist?

Sex with Lasombra women

Did some more work on this Tzimisce

>>96125587
>what, if anything, would justify such a crossover in the lore.

Existential threat that effects both parties, as well as unusually moderate leadership on both sides. That's the only time I managed to get Werewolves to take a chill pill and listen in VtM, and my character still almost got mauled to final death when a bunch of Brujah fuckheads spotted a Werewolf and started shit with them.

>>96125587
>>96126118
Or, here me out here. Malfean Infernalist vampires and Black Spiral Dancers. There's an actual lore precedent for them amicably working together.

>>96124733
Most of the Kraina are in Dark Ages: Vampire 20th & Book of Secrets 20th.
There "rituals"(rites) for kraina are in book of secrets as well(which are more like garou gifts and rites than kindred blood rituals)

>>96126192
Thank you

>>96124747
>just treat spirits well.
Your a vampire anon. Being "nice" isn't going to stop the curse of caine auto-corrupting any spirit you command into a bane.
Vampires need specific help from deities and ancient contracts to keep the blood curse at bay, or they'll end up fucking over the spiritual ecosystem long-term(Source:WtA's info on what happens when vampire interact with the umbra)

>>96125946
>This tzimisce hasn't figured out how to balance symmetry and dissonance yet.
That's actually a releif for any experienced vamp in-game. It means he hasn't perfected his craft yet.
It's the tzimisce that've become equally alien and Beautiful that're the most terrifying. They're the ones that've had enough time to perfect their craft.

>>96126219
And vamps should care, why, again, exactly? Being wyrm-tainted themselves they get along with tainted spirits pretty well, and badly with spirits of sunshine.

The take away from it all is that you should strive for a situation in which the spirits are predisposed to you, or at least don't hold a great grudge against you specifically. So they don't go out of their way to screw you over or wiggle out of their assignment.

>>96126244
While true in principle, the reason I chose to depict him this way is because I feel it shows, instead of tells, how absolutely depraved and inhuman Tzimisce are.
And I feel that not all Tzimisce probably care enough TO look beautiful, at least by human standards.
And of course, my own private belief that as vampires drift away from their humanity, even if they're still fully in control and nowhere near wassail, their Beast still starts to disturb their features. Or, at least, that's how I show their distance from humanity when I draw them.
This is, of course, just my personal approach.

>>96125496
Interesting, what’s his name?

>>96126403
Edgar Drummond

>>96126219
>Vampires need specific help from deities and ancient contracts to keep the blood curse at bay, or they'll end up fucking over the spiritual ecosystem long-term(Source:WtA's info on what happens when vampire interact with the umbra)
Please tell me more

>>96126244

>>96126331
>And I feel that not all Tzimisce probably care enough TO look beautiful, at least by human standards.

Bang on the money. I think many people underestimate the inhumanity of the average Tzimisce. They are beautiful, of course a tiny mortal mind couldn't comprehend it. If they want you they don't need to attract you, they'll just take it. Even an "attractive" Tzimisce should be a little uncanny. Either beautiful in an abstract way (and that's just a coincidence, rather than them trying to look good for the food), or hot in a "I really shouldn't stick my dick in that, however" kind of way. If you can't tell a Tzimisce is a Tzimisce (assuming you know what one is) by looking at them, that's probably a form they're only taking to go incognito.

>>96126331
>>96126800
Why did anons assume when I said "alien and beautiful", I meant it in "conventionally attractive"???
I'm pretty sure "Alien" is the exact opposite of "conventionally attractive".

>>96126470
Vampires that use blood magic to commands spirits cover everything they interact with in wyrm-taint and slowly convert All local spirits into banes. Trying to find the book as we speak, but it was a crossover centered on the tzimisce.

>>96126834
Because most of the time when people say "Alien and beautiful" they're talking fap material that's slightly weird. Shit, sometimes elves are described as alien and beautiful and they're just supermodels with pointy ears half of the time.

Post your idea of an alien and beautiful Tzimisce. Not trying to be incendiary, just so we understand what you're talking about.

>>96126855
Yeah but that's not how Tzimisce work at all and that ought to be obvious imo. They're closer to a dragonfly or something where you "appreciate its purity" but you don't necessarily want to even be near it, much less allow it to touch you.

>>96126887
Pure is not how I would describe any Tzimisce.

>>96126800
I've also considered the fact, now that you bring it up, that a Tzimisce easily can simply "wear" faces made from living tissues to cover it's horrific visage. Then, rip the pretty face off to display the baring fangs and thin, necrotic skin and warped skull of a true fiend. All for a laugh.
>>96126834
What I meant to say was that they may not bother to look beautiful at all. The Eldest is the greatest master of vicissitude, and it doesn't look beautiful at all, at least not as an expression of skill. Precisely because it has left everything like that behind. To the Tzimisce, evolution is wondrous, and a face that is idiosyncratically nightmarish is probably of more value than a dozen of the most beautifully symmetrical faces and bodies.
Not that they would NEVER choose to mold their face into something as pretty as a freshly polished knife, but I just don't feel like that's the highest measure of skill.
And besides, on a meta-note, there is already a clan that is beautiful: the Toreador.
>>96126887
Look at what Ash was describing as beautiful, though.

>>96126921
Really? They seem to maintain their ideology and purpose in a way that most other vamps don't. It's not bodily purity obviously, other than the purity of a goal pursued without compromise. The petty backstabbing and darkalley dealing is secondary to their true calling. It's horrible because it's Grade A Humanity 0 meat, but they are following their own higher calling.

>>96126855
>Post your idea of an alien and beautiful Tzimisce
This is what I mean anon.

>>96127063
I think those are okay, but it doesn't really communicate that the Tzimisce are also undead, and vampires to boot.

>>96126928
>on a meta-note, there is already a clan that is beautiful: the Toreador
There are different kinds of beauty anon. It'd also do a disservice to the toreador to boil them down to "the pretty clan".

>>96126968
See that presumes there's anything of spiritual substance in their philosophy of metamorphosis, when I'd argue it's the complete opposite. The Tzimisce are obsessed with flesh. Enraptured by the material, they're bound to the earth, never to reach the heavens. Look at their final form. A massive, pseudo-fungal abomination that feeds on the detritus of a massive city. They perfect their bodies while their souls wither away into parodies of themselves. Even if we entirely discard the disease angle of Vicissitude, the Tzimisce obsess over it and become transfixed by it. Not only that, they seek to drag others down with it, creating twisted monstrosities to serve their needs that can't function without them.

They're not pure, they're corrupted and twisted.

>>96127063
I'd say it seems almost a little too clean/sterile. The guy in the wall should be aware and screaming, rather than a statue. I could definitely see the candle in some Tzimisce's haven though.

>>96127115
They're trying their hardest to not be vampires through the path of metamorphosis anon. It wouldn't be surprising at all that old and skilled tzimisce are barely even recognizable as undead.

I drew two tzimisce recently. both are pretty inhuman

>Tome of Secrets DAV20
>Yet, something infernal exists in the kraina. Koldunism is the raw power of the earth, but also contains the spite and discord of demons — the most infamous being Kupala. Cursed blood should not mix with nature, yet this is the fundament of the koldun. Demons bound to the elements utilize this curse to find a hold on the Cainite practitioners of the Discipline. The demons adore chaos, and compel koldun to strive for supremacy in their Discipline, principally by warring with other vampires attempting the same thing.
Weren't the Kraina supposed to be the spiritual Koldunism that WASN'T demonic, in contrast to the demonic Koldunism? Am I misreading?

>>96127137
Well, yes, but if you consider the Tzimisce design I'm making "ugly", then "beautiful" probably means something comprehensible AS attractive. And that's the domain of the Toreador, visually anyways.
>>96127152
Maybe, but it IS what they are. They have dead bodies, dead flesh. Fangs, frigid skin, and bodies withered of all life, that is part of the nature of Tzimisce.
If that isn't communicated, then the Tzimisce end up looking like fomori, or like their own szlatcha. That's why I gave the szlatcha here fairly warm skin tones with areas containing blood vessels nad so on. Because they ARE alive, unlike the Tzimisce, who is still a moving corpse, albeit a mutated and mutilated one.
>>96127170
Very nice!

>>96127140
>I'd say it seems almost a little too clean/sterile.
I'd say that's a mark of a more skilled viss user. Having everything be bloody, dirty, and grungy is a good way to be constantly dealing with sickness and infection in your living furniture. Younger tzimisce is going to be bloodier and leaking puss everywhere because they haven't fully mastered the art of exposing muscle and bone without leaving gaping wounds. A master knows exactly how to get transparent membranes and hiding blood vessels so things can function without sacrificing from their visions of genious.

>>96127220
The problem is showing, instead of telling. Vicissitude is all about twisting flesh into ways it SHOULDN'T be. Hence, it will always look pained and hideous and suffering. Never really attractive.
Otherwise, if it looks too clean and "healthy", you will have to simply TELL your audience what it is. Instead of communicating it instantly by sight.

>>96126855
>Post your idea of an alien and beautiful Tzimisce.
emphereal, fairy-like, like something out of Voynich Manuscript

>>96127241
Fairies already exist, and they have their own deal. Vampires are supposed to be undead monsters, not fairies.

Were humans and non-fera splats capable of gaining Gifts, with the right chiminage?

>>96127220
Vitae tends to beat diseases fairly well. Not to mention, most canon depictions of Tzimisce run contrary to your thoughts on the matter. Byelobog, 4th generation Methuselah, his main flex was weaponized dandruff. No, I'm not joking he would shed skin flakes and spread them across his domain on the winds, "marking" the territory and being able to observe and influence all within it. Yorak's Cathedral of Flesh, filled with twisted, disgusting bodies. Kartarirya, looks like a hindu deity with a crippling meth addiction. Demdemeh may have turned himself into a virus. Honestly, of the Tzimisce Methuselah line-up, only Triglav really fits your vision of what they should look like.

That and the idea of caring less and less for mortal concerns the further you go down the vic rabbit hole is something I like, because it reinforces my view of Vicissitude and Metamorphosis. Which to briefly restate is that it's a false enlightenment, it is embracing the flesh at the cost of the health of the soul.

>>96127262
Kiasyd would disagree.
And self-made fae-like visage certainly can be one of the "alien and beautiful (in non-sexual way)" goals of Tzim metamorphosis.
Another could be leaning into VIC+AUS and pursuit of new perceptions through new and improved organs to catch them.

>>96127241
>Voynich Manuscript
Eh, most of the drawings aren't that special. Unknown plants and nude women.

>>96126855.
A flower or an animal can be aesthetically beautiful, but that doesn't mean such beauty will fit on a person. And that's before we get weirder.

A Tzimisce might make sure his exoeskeleton gleams like a jewel, that his twelve eyes are spread in a geometrically pleasing shape, and make sure that the scales in his additional reptilian arms form a crest alongside where his spine used to be and match well with the rest of his colors and their secondary mouths just look like markings when closed.

But there's a difference between a beautiful drawing of a cryptid and a beautiful person, and that's not going to look like a person to you.

>>96127175
V20's writers' utmost retardation aside, if you need a logical answer, consider that Krainas contain demonic practices and muddled rip-offs of Way's powers, while Ways are pure and elemental, it's clear which one is demonic and which is pure. Insofar as vampiric sorcery from the dark and evil slav land can be pure, anyway.

>>96127353
>Kiasyd would disagree.
Kiasyd are weird edgecase, and not really relevant to my point. Which was that Tzimisce are STILL inhuman vampires, and should look it. Horrific, and moving corpses. If a Tzimisce looks just like a fairy, then its left to you to TELL that "it's actually a super horrific fleshcrafting vampire I swear", instead of simply showing it without a single word.
>And self-made fae-like visage certainly can be one of the "alien and beautiful (in non-sexual way)" goals of Tzim metamorphosis
Sure, sometimes. But my point is that it's neither the height of skill nor is it indicative of vicissitative power. The Eldest is the supreme master of Vicissitude, and it sure as hell doesn't look like a fairy. It's basically a huge mass of undead tissue (a design decision I personally disagree with, but that's besides the point). A Tzimisce might well wear a fae face for a certain occasion, or have one as a whim for a little while. But eventually, they just stop caring about looking beautiful at all.
>>96127393
But Tzimisce AREN'T cryptids. They're vampires. The dominant design theme should still be "undead, withered horror" regardless of what secondary themes there are.

>>96127393
See I think this attitude wraps back into the "vicissitude as biomancy" thing. It doesn't really work with the overwhelming majority of official material on what Vicissitude users look like and to me just comes off as "I want my OC to look like this", rather than any expression of the deranged, esoteric beliefs of the Tzimisce.

>>96126852
>Trying to find the book as we speak, but it was a crossover centered on the tzimisce.
Nta but I'd like to know as well, please tell us if you find it

>>96125349

Book of Hungry Names is pretty good.

>>96127465
I agree, even the official art, especially the old art, of the Tzimisce and vicissitude never indicates anything about an obsession with symmetry and making furry OCs. Vicissitude is most often a form of TORTURE, after all. And Tzimisce even enjoy torturing themselves.
It's black magic, not cyberpunk designer surgery.

>>96126852
Pretty interesting… though what intrigued me was the part about deities

>>96127415
Weren't the Ways the ones touched by Kupala?

I think I remember something like that in a previous thread.

Is it just a matter of the typical uncertainties/lack of knowledge/misinformation/biased conflicting accounts/etc in WoD lore?

>>96118229 (OP)
Guy with the Dragon: The Legend idea here continuing with the idea
Today will be the magic of the dragons, the supernatural thing they can do, their power.

What I wanted to do is do some pthing more akin the the werewolves gifts. Augmentation rather than straight spells(kinda).

They'll be called straight up Powers, and each power will do one thing. Some can have multiple dots in them as a way to increase their scale but at most the dots will be 3 at most(with maybe an exception or two)

What I'm going to do to make them different is that the Powers belong to one of 5 groupings that affect a dragon: Body, Presence, Power, World, and Lair

Body are power that related the a Dragons physicality. Larger claws, dexterous tails, or assuming a different form

Presence is how others feel when they see the dragon. Be it fear, Awe, or anger. One can even project their presence to far away places, or even make it so that people forget about them

Power is localized force. Dragon's breath that burns, roars that break, flight that's faster than wings should produce. Even being able to punch while not in any dragon form.

World is that standard magic, using your draconic spark to shape the world around you. Alter weather, shake the ground, create treasure etc. More natural than Conceptual tho

And finally Lair is Powers releating to your base, your home. Making it bigger in the inside, having easy access to it, opening portals in inconspicuous places. Maybe even dropping it on a dude.

A bit different form my initial idea for Tale but I think it work for a CoD setting.

>>96125924
Hope you love sensory deprivation

>>96125349
>>VTM night road
+ parliament of knives
>>WTA Book of hungry names.
Those are good.

>>Mage the Ascention: Refuge. Text adventures.
>>Vampire: The Masquerade - We Eat Blood
kek, no.

>>96127553
Good luck with the project.

>>96127681
Any questions?

Would help me flesh it out more.

Are there tzimisce antitribus that are trying to stop the more monstrous and sadistic members of their clan?

>>96124000
Doesn't the Kraina of the well require a fairly substantial amount of regular human sacrifice?

Great perks though

>>96128177
No, there are no Tzimisce antitribu like with many other Clans. Some of them will work with the Camarilla, but it's only a transient arrangement, and they're otherwise identical with the Sabbat Tzimisce.
The closest to Tzimisce antitribu you'll find are the Old Clan, but they're sadistic monsters too, and hate the "regular" Tzimisce due to them viewing vicissitude as a corrupt degeneracy of Kupala.

>>96128177
>Are there tzimisce antitribu
no, there's small number (in V5 large number) of Anarchs, and rare few Independent / Inconnu

>>96127550
Yes that's part of the irony. The krainas tend to also be useful for dealing with baali and getting rid of demons

>>96123856
>And are there any canon ways in which a vampire could travel to the Umbra and back?
Aside from the paths there's Umbral Walk ritual. Rank 5, clan Tremere, can bring as many people as you want, but each traveller including you requires sacrifice of a sentient being, preferably supernatural for yourself to ensure safest travel possible, and you can't bring any non-magical items with you (so if you don't have anything enchanted on, you appear butt-naked). No other limitations.

>>96128177
Yes, kinda sorta not really. The Old Clan Tzimisce (bloodline, not the other old clan) were introduced as a Tzimisce bloodline that rejected Vicissitude (having dominate instead) and views the rest of the clan with hatred and contempt. That being said, they're hardly good people themselves, as they're a part of the True Black Hand they engage in child kidnapping as some of the lessermost of their offenses.

Of course the book they were introduced in and the sect it's about (true black hand) is one of the most controversial and hated VtM books of all time

>>96128081
>Any questions?
Sure, what stories would you cite as inspiration for this splat?
What canon creature would you say this iteration of the game is closest to?

>No upbeat and optimistic Etherite gf to explore the Umbra with
:(

Maybe I'm just really dumb, but I can't for the life of me figure out what the fuck this contract actually does.

>>96118659
Sauce me big man

>>96118324
Parthian chicken just doesn't taste the same without the sylphium. It's hard enough to find asafoetida as is. Damned debauched Romans

>>96128642
It's a jank form of divination where the characters spouts game metaphors that vaguely fit whatever else the ST deems a conflict.
For example, a Changeling playing chest against himself might discover that the Fae his thinking about has lost one of his lieutenants(the loss of a knight) or has gone into hiding (castling).
https://youtu.be/uMVtpCPx8ow?si=tkD17zagIDfeu59j

>>96118229 (OP)
>This is a setting where a Roman Senator can get his ass kicked in by a Cyberpunk trying to save his feminist werewolf girlfriend, who was ambushed and kidnapped while investigating a supposed haunting by Lizzie Borden
>And somewhere else, a Changeling was doing something, probably, maybe. Most likely just tweaking over the fact people doom scroll all day idk
Do you really need alternate timelines?

>>96128728
Sorry, I got it here.

>>96118659
>The “Oh no, I’m so hideous, don’t look at me :(“
>Is conventionally pretty
That shit ticks me off.

>>96129358
It's not her fault you are uglier than the average nosferat.

>>96129366
The whole point of being a Nosferatu is being ugly as sin. Not TV sitcom “ugly”. I usually like Crom’s art, but he fell off with that pic. I feel like Magneto in that one meme. I want some REAL Nosferussy. Now, Bloodline’s Imalia? That’s how the Clan curse should go. And you want to know something else? I WANT to fuck her. Post-Embrace.

>>96129396
>I usually like Crom’s art, but he fell off with that pic.

The character isn't a VtM Nosferatu anyway.

>>96129442
>The character isn't a VtM Nosferatu anyway
Then what in the good god damn is it of? American comedian Jerry Lewis???

>>96129524
Close, but I think it's actually of American singer Jerry LEE Lewis.

>Etherite builds a fist mounted pilebunker

>>96129537
Oh my great balls of fire!

>>96129543
How is this more effective or practical than just using a gun?

>>96129524
Different setting vampire OC.

>>96129548
Rule of cool. Maybe does more damage to compensate for the effort it takes, unsoakable?
I guess it's also a way to aggressively use Forces and Matter effects.
But it's mostly rule of cool.

Does anybody here have any long-term (>1yr long) games going? Specifically ones that are done over VC or even better done in person. The games I'm in keep falling apart.

>>96128081
What's the core source of tension for PCs the game?

>>96129396
Well aren't you a speshul snowflake. You want to know the sad part?
Even she would probably not want to fuck YOU.

>>96129358
The artstyle is doing a lot of the heavy lifting there. I feel like if I saw those features on a real person I would still be unsettled by them, no matter how moé they were deep down.

>>96127470
>>96127578
Will check them out, thanks!

>>96129921
What's so unsettling about trau otherkin?
Seen a few in my time, if lot less pretty.

>>96129596
I've had a few, not just in WoD either. The trick is we all know each other IRL and only moved to VC due to people moving away.

>>96129396
>I WANT to fuck her.
Subversion of the local forum users is proceeding as planned.

>>96129596
You need some friends and non-conflicting weekly schedule.

There are also large messenger groups, but their admin is more often than not is an insufferable shitstain with colossal ego, so players and even storytellers get evicted left and right.

>>96121959
Well you see, there is this thing called diablerie

>>96121959
>>96130188
unspoken ventrue etiquette states that you're allowed to diablerize your sire if they're too cringe

>>96130352
I'm pretty sure Lasombra believe the same thing

>>96129596
Sorry to hear that; finding a stable group can be really frustrating. I hope things take a better turn for you.

>>96129895
Honestly, other Dragons. Dragons "Hunt" for quests or cool shit to do in order to grow their power, but in thenmodern age there only so many of them since every supernatural is hiding, and since they need to hide as well. They can figut eachother for the right to slay a vampire, or find a lost treasure.
Some particularly asshole dragon may even fight another dragon, cause him to go full form, and kill and take the others Dragon Heart, stealing his power for himself.
There also obviously the need to stay hidden as if they get too loud other will start to hunt them for breaking the hiding. The Order of St, George - a cousin org of the inquisition that hunt dragons. The High Order - the dragons that keep other dragons in check
Maybe even a type of monster that hunts dragons for their power as well loke stalking parasites, don't know what specifically to make them tho


>>96128510
Okay funny story; My original iteration of this idea - Dragon: The Tale(for WoD while Legend is CoD) - was based on the scp story "Here Were Dragons". The idea of dragons leaving, but the world they went to dying out seemed to me to fit best with the idea of dragons returning, coming back to stay alive a little longer.

But for Legend I don't think there's a set inspiration for them. Closest I can say is Shadowrun with the dragons there being these big bosses. I guess the closet thing to these dragons would just be the pop culture idea of dragons. Powerful, conniving, and dangerous. There's also Scion, but that only a pinch and mostly just incidental

>>96118245
>>96118252
Ya, I like the yellow, too. The "flame of knowledge" over his brow as a nod to Baphomet is also nice.

>>96130512
for the lasombra it's not unspoken "Libellus Sanguinis 1 Masters of the State" has a lasombra literally be sentenced to be Amaranth because he was too cringe about his clan weakness

>>96130913
>was too cringe about his clan weakness
DESU all Lasombra are too cringe about their clan weakness.

>>96130999
yes that's exactly why they have a actual court system so that they can systematically kill each other in a orderly fashion

also nice trips of truth

What are the best WoD youtubers? I need content to fall asleep to

>>96131309
There's "The Count"
Lies of Clan Tzimiche is a video that most easily leads you to him

Did a drawing of one of the Slashers from my upcoming game. His name is the Bodybagger, an Undesirable/Freak who lives in the town dump. He can't remember his own name. He goes through peoples bins to find what they discard and see if it will fix his life, because he's always been envious of others. He breaks into the persons house, pulls them apart with his bare hands and stuffs them in bin bags before taking whatever he likes from the place and wearing it.

When it doesn't fix him as a person, he discards it at the site of his next killing. When he evolves into a Scourge, he'll find that he can't discard the trappings and they become a part of him. Maybe the remnants in the binbags do also, I've not decided yet.

>>96131613
Cool concept, especially the Jason Voorhees look coupled with the reptilian eye. The trashbag strips on his face also remind me a little of this horror movie I can't quite remember that featured a gimp

What Spheres would Harry Dresden use in MtA? My personal guess is that it'd be a combo of Forces and Correspondence.

Holy shit, new audio for Norfolk Wizard Game. Nice.

>>96131946
Sounds like a fun film. Can you post it here if you ever remember it, I do love trashy slasher films.

>>96125496
>Wight
>still capable of acting just like he did before becoming one
>likely impossible to tell he even is one
so this is the power of autism....

>>96132045
and judging by what they wrote it seems like the visual episode will probably be out next week once their program stops crashing

>>96125496
>>96132096
we have several humanity zero npcs and one of the corebooks mentioned that well feed wights can still resemble the person they used to be and have hobbies
going by chaining the beast these guys could even rule wise function normally (as far as low humanity vampires can be called normal) but would become mindless monsters the moment any frenzy trigger hits (remember that perceived insults count) them or they go below half their bloodpool and they might attack people who are a hindrance for them (optional rule in the book is that low humanity characters need to roll NOT to kill people, but a wright would have zero dice for it) without hesistation

which would still make them a danger to everyone around them and the masquarade

>>96132096
Power of railroad autism specifically.

Have you ever met a guy obsessed with trains?

I sketched some Nosferatu!

>>96132741
Samedi blending in, I see.

>>96132741
I like it, too many people just assume it's Orlock or nothing, especially with Requiem where it can be absolutely anything.

>be Hermetic apprentice
>wake up at 6 am
>spend 3 hours doing grunt work such cleaning floors, stocking ingredients and the like
>spend the next four hours studying esoteric bullshit that I will only find out years later was completely pointless and intentionally made to waste my time
>spend a few hours being tutored by my pater in Order history
>he keeps skipping what we were up to in Eastern Europe doing the Middle Ages
>not gonna ask him again, cause I don't want him to set me on fire again
>spend the afternoon practicing my magic
>accidentally lose control of the demon i summoned again
>spend the evening pretending that I can read Enochian to flex on the other apprentices in the chantry
>go to bed at 1 am with the smug satisfaction that at least I'm not a sorcerer

>>96132865
>These seem to sketches of Sewer Rat's various manifestations of their Clan Curse, let me bring up and remind people of Requiem for no reason
VtR Nosferatu aren't necessarily deformed, they can just be creepy and unnerving while looking normal oooohhhh!!! Look how subversive Requiem is!!! Requiem is the mature player who hates camp and fun and getting laid.

>>96133067
>accidentally lose control of the demon i summoned again
This dude is practicing infernalism!! Janissaries, gilgul his ass IMMEDIATELY!!!!

>>96133149
I'd argue that "has to be a walking Masquerade violation" is fundamentally worse than "has something that makes them unsettling."

So my Hunter players (the old HtR) have just conducted a high profile terrorist attack with multiple civilian casualities last session. Believe me or not, somehow this was actually a fairly sensible, even if extreme plan on their behalf.

Anyway, they got away from the scene of crime relatively easily, but obviously the authorities are going to get their asses soon, especially since they're not skipping town. I'm wondering in what way to determine how soon though.
My current idea is to allow the players to make a couple of tests representing the various ways in which they are trying to hide and cover their tracks (probably skills like stealth, streetwise, subterfuge etc. depending on their specific plan), count the successes they scored and then make the authorities make an extended investigation test with that many successes as their goal and each attempt representing, say, 12 hours of investigation
Does that sound sensible?

NWG's turning out fun
>Hermetic in training, Samson, enters an abandoned building
>There's a kitchen inside with large tanks with glowing fish eggs inside growing on human skulls
>Wants to investigate (Definitely nephandi shit)
>Decides that the best way to do that is USING THE KITCHEN COOKWARE TO MIX HIS SPORTS DRINK AND THE SLIME FROM THE DEFINITLY MONSTER EGGS TO MAKE A POTION FISH ESSENCE
>Fucking DRINKS it
>eeeyup that's an eldritch fish demon these eggs belong to

Marvolo's going to be PISSED

>>96132865
Thank you! But like >>96133149 said, it's some displays of their Curse. My problem with VtR, is that it misunderstands the Clan curse. The Curse is not merely that you become a walking Masquerade violation or inspire terror in onlookers. The Curse is as such because it makes your own daily existence suffering. Your deformities actually hinder you, and make previously simple activities an arduous labor.
Imagine if your head doubled in size and your teeth tripled from there. Now you'll have to spend lots of time just holding your grotesque cranium up and tottering around somewhat comically, and struggling to feed with your horrific maw, leaving aside completely coherent speech. Forever.

>>96133381
>a high profile terrorist attack with multiple civilian casualities
The least violent Imbued response.

>>96132741
>>96132865
>Get Embraced by Nosferatu
>End up like that guy at the end of The Fly 2
I’d rather risk an Embrace by a Br*jah.

>>96133602
It's a different curse to Nosferatu in Masquerade to be fair, the Requiem Nosferatu are all about Fear and Horror, it's their thing 100% of the time.
>>96133149
I'm just happy to see some different Nosferatu anon.
>>96133633
Hard to know who'd have a shorter life expectancy desu.

I just can’t wait for my werewolf game tomorrow. The only thing that sour my mood right now is that I am sick and currently dry coughing. Which sucks a lot.

I was thinking of requesting art of my character on the drawthread but it looks kinda dead… or deader than it was years ago…

>>96132865
The Nosferatu/Gangrel hybrid that I rped on the schreck thread (as well as the joker to my hobo batman vampire in my current chronicle), kinda looks like if a comedy theatre mask was modeled a spooky shark

>>96133067
>spend 3 hours doing grunt work such cleaning floors, stocking ingredients and the like
You lot forgot how to animate tools to do it for you, again?

>>96125946
>>96132741
It's always fun to see other folks posting their stuff!

>>96133711
Speaking of the Schreck thread, I figure I'd add on to the drawfaggotry of this thread by posting this little sketch I did a while back of my Samedi ally (one of my friends' character) passing off some instructions to his right hand man, Mr. Wu. Never found a reason to post it in character.

>>96118245
Did you ever finish this one?

>>96133788
Pretty neat. Sometimes I miss the og threads, with Crimson-Pinstripe-Suit, Andoval, Lady Blue-Blood
and mine, Red-Errand-Girl

>>96133392
it was really funny tho

>>96133381
Seems sensible to me. That's probably more or less how I would do it if I were the ST.

>>96133849
Reading the old threads was fun. I wish I had gotten involved sooner. Your use of Seras for REG's appearance reminded me of the Sabbot game we played when V20 was first released in 2011, since it started up after I showed our ST Hellsing and we started discussing the various characters as VTM clans.

>>96133189
>!! Janissaries
Wild that hermetics were so willing to not only accept the most blatantly suspicious newfounded gaggle of "mages" appearing out of nowhere with most flimsy backstory, but allow them to assume the self-appointed role of judge, jury and the executioner.

How do you miss that they're an unholy blend of assamites and nephandi with a dash of Reason's catspaw under benign facade? Did hermetic leadership WANT to get assassinated and cause as much damage as possible to other traditions while aiding and abetting the worst of the fallen?

>>96131613
Neat.

>>96133935
they just wanted someone else to do all the work so they could spend more time gooning in their horizon realm

>>96133934
Yeah, it was a good time. Shame that I was among the few who liked having the stories converged into a single point… though I think it’s natural in my case since most of it revolved around Red.

Seras was one of my first anime waifus (I exclude Naruto and the likes since when I was a kid I had no idea there was a distinction between anime and cartoons). Red was also dressed like Mavis from hotel Transylvania because she too was one of my earliest waifus
not long after the first movie came out I saw a YouTube video of the end song but with Mavis in panties as background image. I tried looking up the source and discovered r34… so while I had other waifus before her, she’s the first one I ended up looking up for porn

>>96134074
>Shame that I was among the few who liked having the stories converged into a single point…

They're good in theory but the longer they go on for the more OOC communication is required to keep the story straight. Otherwise it turns into two people calling each other liars ad infinitum.

>>96133788
>mr. Wu

>>96134007
But holy hell, at this point I don't know who'd be worse to trust with internal affairs.

And cherry on the top janissaries got away with all their bullshit and maintained a righteous reputation right until the point when their head honcho died trying to assassinate Porthos (who died because he prioritised containing the destruction they engineered) amid a cataclysm-causing conflict they engineered, and afterwards janissaries were allowed to exist instead of being eliminated for good. Somehow. Even after, aside from their other crimes their collaboration with world-ending nutjobs came to light.
Houses faced total extermination for much less.

>>96133709
>It's a different curse to Nosferatu in Masquerade to be fair, the Requiem Nosferatu are all about Fear and Horror, it's their thing 100% of the time.
This, like how their in-clan Disciplines are Vigor, Obfuscate, and Nightmare. They're the human-shaped monster that can be anywhere, create terror at will, and rip you limb from limb if they think you deserve it. Versus the Mekhet, the other clan with Obfuscate, who are all about simply being there without you knowing at all. A Nosferatu's lair is a place where you can't trust any of your senses and something is both hunting you and controlling your path. A Mehket's is someone's home who doesn't know they have a roommate.

>>96134193
>They're the human-shaped monster that can be anywhere, create terror at will, and rip you limb from limb if they think you deserve it
Anon....that's literally what Nosferatu are. All VtR did was remove or at least muddle the most defining and interesting aspect of the Nosferatu: their terrifying and idiosyncratic deformities.
>>96133830
Oh no I'm still working on it.

>>96134331
>All VtR did was remove or at least muddle the most defining and interesting aspect of the Nosferatu: their terrifying and idiosyncratic deformities.
You mean removed the debilitating aspect it had in VtM, which made actually playing one to be "hardcore mode." They can still have weird deformities, but it's not the only option, and it's not one that turns you into a walking masquerade breach.

>>96133602
>My problem with VtR, is that it misunderstands the Clan curse.
You know that they're different things right? VtR nossies aren't just VtM nossies in a different setting. They're not the same game and they're not universally doing the same thing.

>>96134569
>You mean removed the debilitating aspect it had in VtM
It's a curse, yes. Without that aspect, then it's basically just not a Nosferatu.
>>96134587
Yes, I know VtR isn't VtM, but then why call them Nosferatu at all if there isn't supposed to be thematic continuity

>>96134331
My meme-level understanding is that VtM Nosferatu are "woobies" who you're supposed to feel sorry for, while VtR Nosferatu are like the Mystery Man in Lost Highway. The latter sounds way cooler to me.

>>96134612
I'm not sure you do to be honest. Otherwise you wouldn't have said the thing about how one game doesn't understand the other because it's not the same. They're drawing upon similar inspirations and do have some thematic continuity, they're just not identical things.

>>96134615
>My meme-level understanding is that VtM Nosferatu are "woobies" who you're supposed to feel sorry for
Meme-level misunderstanding then. Nosferatu are every bit as monstrous as all other vampires, and moreso given that they literally have a sub-culture in their ranks where causing terror and torturing humans is the main thing they do. You're supposed to be disgusted by Nosferatu, and feeling sorry for them is usually transient.
>>96134623
Then why even bother calling them Nosferatu? Just call them something else. Nosferatu are called that because Count Orlok looks fucking horrific, and brings misery and disease with him.

>>96134638
Because they often look horrific and are directly tied to that sort of fear and repulsion? Like, genuinely, how little do you know about VtR?

>>96134645
See what I said earlier about muddling. The whole point is that it's not a PLAYER choice if they look deformed or not. They always will. It's involuntary. That's the whole deal. If you welch on that, then it compromises their entire theme.
If their thing is instead simply radiating fear, there's plenty of other Clans that already do that in VtM.
Man, nWoD really blows chunks.

>>96134655
Okay

>>96134655
It ain't complicated, you're just stupid maybe?

>>96134674
Muddling the Bland

>>96134655
>The whole point is that it's not a PLAYER choice if you can't walk on the street, join the rest of the party most of the time, or be seen by anyone outside of Elysium
It's a design choice that was made without even thinking if it's be a playable option.

The fact you think "they updated a clan to actually be a playable choice is bad" is a you problem.

>>96134638
I think Paradox is clearly trying to make them sexy, because that's what the fans want. And not just the women, I see people in these threads often jerking to "Nosferatu vtuber gf" or whatever.

>>96118286
Funny story
Had this book back in the day and had it stolen by a Gypsy
He stole just about everything even all the manga our library had
Nobody would sit near him since he'd grab food of your plate

>>96134785
What the actual fuck. Was that in highschool?

>>96134796
I think around 2014? So around high-school, Had bought the book at my local game store on discount with WTA 2nd and VTM 1st

>>96134741
> "they updated a clan to actually be a playable choice is bad"
It sounds like you never liked the Nosferatu in the first place, and are happy that Paracucks watered them down.
>>96134754
Truke. Makes me sick, frankly. Because thanks to VtR, there's a good chance people will think that's what the actual Nosferatu are like.

>>96134929
>It sounds like you never liked the Nosferatu in the first place, and are happy that Paracucks watered them down.
Or VtM Nosferatu were just bad game design that VtR fixed, but you're too much of an "old is better" grognard to admit it.

>>96134785
You lost a great opportunity to join his family.

>>96134959
Exactly my point. You didn't like them. And you like that Pair-of-Cocks watered them down and made them easier to LARP as. Go home.

>>96134929
No, I think VtR Nosferatu are "pure", they're just about being scary, no room for fetishizing.
Also, stop seething about Requiem, it's 20 years old at this point. VtM won, and you got V5 as a reward, be happy about it.

>>96134993
>No, I think VtR Nosferatu are "pure"
Yeah, removing the ugliness from a Clan named after a movie about a vampire whose most defining characteristic is being ugly. What a great choice for themetic purity! Remove anything involuntarily ugly, and make everything up to player choice, even when it ends up compromising the theme of said Clan!
>VtM won, and you got V5 as a reward
Reward?

>>96134929
>the actual Nosferatu
WTF?

>>96135011
>compromising the theme of said Clan
NTA but that's kinda retarded. Giving you more ways to explore the theme doesn't compromised the theme, you just like something narrower. They're meant to be revolting and horrific in ways that makes them unpleasant to be around. They're still revolting if they're covered in slime, they're still horrific if cockroaches live under their skin. You just like them being ugly only in the other game that's doing different things and it really sounds like you've got a major gap in your basic understanding that there are two different games.

This some sort of Delta Green apocalyptic ttrpg?

>>96134986
I never even said anything about what Paradox did, but your stupidity is shining bright.

What exactly is the difference between VtM and VtR Nosferatu? How did VtR change them? I don't really see how VtM Nosferatu are bad game design, just put on a trenchcoat and a fedora

>>96135050
The big one was making it so that being seen by non-Kindred isn't automatically a masquerade breach. They still all have some kind of deformity or supernatural effect about them that makes them unsettling, but they're not automatically "Hard Mode, can't be in public" like in VtM.

>>96135050
They can have any kind of strange unsettling features, not just monstrous face and body. So you can have one that looks like a doll, their voice seems to be coming from somewhere else, or has some kind of strange environmental effect, like lights dim near them, etc.

>>96135035
>Giving you more ways to explore the theme
VtR does not explore the theme, it jumps around it and avoids it. Almost all vampires are unnerving, and the ones that aren't are either rare, or actively using a discipline to not be so. They're WALKING CORPSES that parasitically feed on human blood, fresh from the living body.
What set Nosferatu apart was their Curse. It was tied deeply into their lore, and their theme. They make the horror of the vampire impossible to hide.

>>96135086
The one I played was a cat burglar, and his shadow would look like it was stealing things.

>>96135050
VtR Clans are more archetypal than VtM Clans and the Nossies of VtR are playing towards the pop culture and mythological themes of fear, revulsion, and disease. They get a unique Clan Discipline called Nightmare that's all about manipulating perceptions and causing people to see, and experience, their worst fears. Their Clan Bane is also different in that they're not universally ugly but universally repulsive and frightening. A lot of them are ugly but it can manifest in ways beyond physical appearance. They might leave a trail of mold behind them and on whatever they touch, their shadow might move independently, when they talk it might always sound like they're whispering in your ear regardless of where they are, maybe rats live in their clothes, etc. etc. They maintain the outcast nature of their VtM counterparts but they're not going about it in the same way.

>>96135090
Fuck off with this already, you're just a liar at this point.

>>96135096
Reminds me of picture related.

>>96135090
If you say so. Just sounds like you're talking out of your ass and confusing two games for the same thing to me.

>>96135070
trenchcoat and fedora

>>96135127
>Weird dude wandering around at night, avoiding being looked at directly, and stalking people

>>96135106
I'm not lying at all. You literally said that one of the good things about VtR Nosferatu is that they DON'T look nightmarish and horrific. I'm sorry if that's too big of a downside for you.....but that's the point. It's a CURSE. VtR just has absolutely no good lore, so of course they do away with the Curse, but if you do that, I'll ask again....what's even the point?

If you want to play a doll-like unnerving vampire....just play a Toreador you fucking fruitloop.

>>96135127
Two words to cause the VtRetards' brains to melt.

>>96135137
Bait used to be believable

>>96135137
And you're mistaking your personal preference for something being "objectively better."

Toreador/Daeva are about being the inhumanly beautiful and seductive vamp, not the unsettling type.

>>96135070
>they're not automatically "Hard Mode, can't be in public" like in VtM
MAN if only there was a Discipline that the Nosferatu know that explicitly exists to get around this! Ah shoot, it sucks there ISN'T one of those. Dang......oh well, guess we better bin em!

>>96135150

>>96135157
>not the unsettling type
Every single vampire except the highest Humanity ones are unsettling. The lowest Humanity vampires look like monsters and cannot move around without being noticed as such. Nosferatus' deformities are what sets them apart.
Again, you cannot address this point, because it blows the hell out of VtR.

>>96135166
>Nosferatus' deformities are what sets them apart.
In different ways in the two different games, and you are absolutely buttblasted that they chose to make them different in Requiem to fit that game's design and world better.

>>96130737
Any idea kn what a Dragon Splat should have.

Suggestions and ideas, let's have a bit of fun with this.

>>96135176
My point, which you cannot address because again, it explodes your anus, is that why call them NOSFERATU at all, if you're gonna chicken out with the body horror and just make them vaguely spooky (remember SHOWING instead of TELLING)?
If VtR Nosferatu aren't supposed to be the same clan as the actual Nosferatu in VtM.....then why even use the name?
As I said, it's because you cannot handle body horror and the exploration of deformity and were happy to see it done away with, in exchange for "trust me bro, he's such a scary vampire everyone who sees him is so scared even though he basically looks like a Toreador".
You never liked the Nosferatu, go home.

What happens if a Redcap eats a vampire?

>>96135112
That's cool; what book was that in?

>>96118659
>>96128728 (Me)
>>96129340
Do not fret my nossie lover friend. For i have found our source in a not so normal manner
https://judgeanon.tumblr.com/post/185827545305/cromwaits-a-character-design-that-got-a-little
The artist in question is cromsferatu, he's done some pretty great vampire artwork but it appears he really likes to nuke his works every so often so the only original version of that post is on a Tumblr repost.

>>96135227
Book of Seemings (Lost)

>>96135220
They'd get ghoul normally but if they can digest it fast enough they should be bale to bypass that side effect.

Like Ozzy Ousborn and drugs

>>96135220
According to Kithbook: Redcap, nothing out of the ordinary, but Vampires also taste like shit so they don't bother

>>96135208
If VtR kindred aren't supposed to be the same vampires as the actual kindred in VtM.....then why even use the name?

>>96135316
>then why even use the name?
Brand recognition and loyalty. This was a reboot before splitting into its own thing.

>>96135282
>Book of Seemings (Lost)
Ah, it was 2nd ed. Explains why I couldn't find it.

>>96135316
You're quite right, because VtR has the "lore" and writing of a wet macaroni fart, and the vampire breeds arent really related, there is no reason to really use the term "kindred" and its only used because of what >>96135348 said

How far do you go with tzimeze flesh shapery? Or body horror in general?

>>96135277
>no porn

Speaking of Kiths, apparently Wraiths can’t skinride their mortal seemings. If they try to, they experience something similar to a bad acid trip and afterwards, recurring nightmares, on top of failing to skinride the fae at all.

>>96135208
Or you refuse to listen to anything anybody says because you're so fucked in the head about this.

>>96135437
Oh interesting, where'd you read that?

>>96135507
Either the WtO Renegades book or the Shadow Player’s Guide.

>>96135396
I still have this illustration which (among others) our ST showed when we stumbled into a sort of 'nest' of discarded Tzimisce 'projects'.

>>96135397
He does some pretty kino smut you just have to look for it.
https://danbooru.donmai.us/posts?tags=cromwaits&z=1

>>96135541
And some fuckers still complain when the Tremere create a simple gargoyle.

There are rituals that can remove tattoos from a kindred's body I remember but are there that can add or change them post embrace? This is very important to the fetish materials I'm writing

>>96135642
>but are there that can add
Yes.
Brand, lvl 1 ritual

>or change them
I can't remember any, but some bored Tremere, somewhere, probably made something like that.

>>96134615
The counter to their weakness is that they're the "Anonymous" clan, ruling the Internet and sub-communities they form.

>>96134331
>Oh no I'm still working on it.
Cool. Do you have a place where you post your /tg/ related stuff because i can't find it where your other stuff is.

>>96118229 (OP)
Whats the best version of vampire i can get to play with my friends if they've never played a ttrpg before.

>>96135977
Yeah, sure, I post some of my stuff on my instagram: tsailerol_friend3000

>>96135642
guy already mentioned brand, but look up combination disciplines there is one that let's you store disciplines in tattoos

>>96129033
I guess the thing i’m hung up on is that I’m not sure how to make it useful in a game.

Another update!
>>96135396
I like the victims of vicissitude to look very distorted and twisted up, nothing can look "healthy" when it comes to the fleshcraft.
The Tzimisce themselves, as you can see here, I imagine as incredibly distorted themselves. Not simply by the touch of their own vicissitude, but also because their distance from Humanity allows the Beast to "shine" through, even given that the Tzimisce are not generally in danger of wassail. So they look dead, withered, dry, and emaciated on TOP of being warped by the fleshcraft.

Late to the argument but I think the Requiem v Masquerade Nosferatu curse thing isn't that deep. All of the Requiem clan curses are toned down from Masquerade equivalents when applicable.

You guys make me want to draw my characters.
It's a shame I suck at drawing.

>>96136113
Beast shining through is the Gangrel curse. Curses (and their natural consequences) are the only universal thing about a clan. Rest is just headcanons.
You can argue some of them can exude certain traits more extremely than others, but such generalizations don't persist outside homebrew and specific characters afaik

>>96136227
>Beast shining through is the Gangrel curse
Let me put it another way: I like to depict the Tzimisce as being altered by their lack of humanity, on top of vicissitude.
As far as it being headcanon, yeah, that's why I said "I like to imagine". It's just my personal preference for how they become distorted by their powers and their lack of human spirit.

>>96136227
And, also, strictly speaking the curse of the Gangrel is that they take on traits of animals after they frenzy. Bristling fur, razor talons, etc.
What I'm talking about is something like the changes that ocurr as humanity bleeds away from a vampire. Eyes become assymetrical, skin becomes grey and dead, lips thin and teeth constantly bare. The vampire comes to look more like the monster within. That's what I'm doing.
Gangrel have their own thing, and low-humanity Gangrel would take on the same traits I described here too. Of course, it's just my personal thing. But I feel it adds to the horror of the vampire.

>>96136275
>>96136302
Fair enough, guess I got irked by all the insistence on Tzimisce having obligatory alien tastes when that's more likely just the elders (elders going freaky is a vampire issue not a Tzimisce one)

>>96136343
While I don't think every scrub neonate Tzimisce (if you can call any Tzmisice a scrub) is going to be as balls-out nightmare fleshcrafting horror mode as an Elder, I think that vicissitude naturally pulls one down that path. Theres just no such thing as a "humane" vicissitude user.

>>96136343
I think my tendency is that young Tzis would be in competition, so they'd do like finches and hyperspecialize one feature of their anatomy, and then their elders would be cumulative piles of projects like that they've half-reabsorbed and forgot about.

>>96136366
Almost all vicissitude users are humanitarians
[spoilers]in the same way some people are vegetarians[/spoilers]

>>96136113
Aww yeah the big boy is leaking undigested bile and the little buddy is still smoking a fat one, let's fucking go (also the pops of red and yellow naturally draw the eye around the piece in a lovely way, but this isn't /ic/ so I'll shut up now)

>>96136366
NTA and slightly off topic, but I feel like part of the reason the elders are so fucked up (vampire elders in general but also Tzimisce ones in particular) is because the "good" either don't stay "good" or are just about guaranteed to die before reaching elder status

Not worth making a thread in /v/ or /vrpg/ for this, the wrong pronunciation of LaCroix in Bloodlines annoys me a lot

>>96136645
If it helps, most of the Kindred and people who pronounce it that way are mostly American.

>Ventrue who can only feed from those he’s beaten in physical combat
Cringe or based?

Based Gachimuchi Ventrue

>>96136433
>is because the "good" either don't stay "good" or are just about guaranteed to die before reaching elder status

I'd say that's mostly true, but there's another angle I think goes unexplored in a lot of official material because it runs contrary to the "elder bad" narrative. The good ones don't make it through the ages, but neither do the shortsightedly cruel ones. If you're being a wanton, vile fuck you won't last. You'll either go feral or piss off the wrong person and get dusted. You need to be cutthroat, but not so cutthroat you are incapable of cultivating allies, because no amount of generation or guile can allow you to solo unlife.

>>96136769
I'd say that's a very good one for a martially inclined, blood knight sort of Ventrue. There's a canon Ventrue with a similar one to boot. It's also so specific I'd let you take the flaw for a very narrow Ventrue curse, enjoy the freebies.

>>96136769
Could be worse. Enjoy eating babies.

>>96136769
Make it beaten in mental combat

>>96136645
How is LaCroix supposed to be pronounced if not like Lah-Kroy?

Lah-Kh<guttural>ua?

>>96136769
What about
>Ventrue who can only feed on people who have defeated HIM in combat?

>>96136769
Savor the ones skilled enough to mark you. Cultivate a crop of students like Pai Mei, graduates leave with your techniques and the knowledge that you start hunting them in 10 years.

>>96136803
Still applies to this concept >>96136772

>>96136645
I don't know that I'm bothered, but I do have a hard time picturing a vampire that has the history he claims to have who accepts his name being misprononced, especially by his own underlings.
Always made me feel like he's lying through his teeth.

>>96136799
Phonetically: krwa

>>96136799
l'kwah

>>96136973
He's Napoleonic-old, yeah? Is that enough time to consider his birth nation dead and forsaken in all but name?

>>96136973
It's also funny even Bach pronounces it the Anglo way when he's supposed to be a German that comes from a family that haunted LaCroix for more than a century
And even funnier Bach's first name, Grünfeld is Ashkenazi more than German so he also should be an extremist Jew holding a Star of David instead of a Christian with a cross

>>96135607
>And some fuckers still complain when the Tremere create a simple gargoyle
The problem with gargoyles is that that V20's Tremere-hating writers found and took the worst ritual from obscure dark age book for their creation, made it way worse (it's the only ritual that causes deterioration no matter how monstrous your mentality is, even though it's hardly even in top ten abominable things non-cam clans do), then made up a whole load of bullshit about Tremere being forbidden to make any kind of creatures, a law that didn't exist in the first, the second and the revised edition.

While back Revised you needed merely blood from a monstrous clan (Tzimisce, Nosferatu and Gangrel being the most common), and there was absolutely NO restriction whatsoever on what Tremere could create.

>>96136343
>going freaky is a vampire issue not a Tzimisce one
Going freaky is explicitly Vicissitude issue. Don't need to be a Tzimisce.

>>96137088
At least Blood Brothers are still cool. And 2 hives have Intelect 2+. Like that mafioso who is hiding his brothers inside his body and bulking out.

>>96137113
Blood Brothers were always kinda cool, if a bit niche. As any Tzimisce-Tremere collab ought to be.

Fun fact - Caitiff/Thinblood Blood Brothers can exist.

>>96137015
Maybe he was a Converso?

>>96137142
Yes they can. Its easier than playing a normal Blood Brothers Hive too, though far less schizophrenic, which goes directly against the Blood Brother coolness factor. But yeah, 5 12th Gens linked in a second-hand Vinculum to practice Sangunious and act like a biopunk version of an elite swat team is really cool and I would like to see it in practice some time. Really, you could make a video game out of it, Doorkickers+Cruelty Squad

>>96137088
>>96135607
Important thing to add for the
>some fuckers still complain when the Tremere create a simple gargoyle
context is that that specific shit ritual requires death and dismemberment of three+ Tzimisce (or Nosferatu/Gangrel), and the resulting Gargoyles hate the donor clans more than anything in the world and seek their death at all costs (even when their Tremere asks them to kindly take that Tzimisce alive, they have to roll to not kill the poor lick anyway, and then make degeneration check if they fail to resist the urge).

>>96137190
>context is that that specific shit ritual requires death and dismemberment of three+ Tzimisce (
I still can't see anything wrong with that.

>>96137202
Yeah, but the clans in question do, even if they killed each other more often than they got nabbed to make Gargoyles back in those early years of Tremere before they got the stable population going/came up with a better ritual.

What would be a good canon Elder to make a major antagonist for a high level Hunter game? I wanna shoot one of WW's OCs in the face.

>>96137221
I’m sorry if fuckers feel offended, but every time the ritual is performed, the world gets better.

>>96137302
Realistically, signature characters like Sascha Vykos and maybe pseudomeths like Ambrogino Giovanni or Oliver Thrace caught with their pants down.

If you're thinking success against all odds go with Vasilisa, Kartariya, Goratrix, Ur-Shulgi and Thing Under New York.

>>96137302
Smiling Jack. He's got a canon voice, it's an easy impression, and somebody might even be surprised he's a cannibal rapist serial killer outside the context of polite vampire society.

>>96137302
Why does it have to be a WW OC?

>>96137337
Yeah Vykos could work, honestly it has a fairly weak statline for how important the dick thrower is supposed to be. I think Meths and Pseudomeths are probably a bit beyond hunters unless they have so many allies it turns into a wargame, and WoD isn't suited for that. Also, who the fuck is Oliver Thrace?

I did have an idea for a one shot about playing fedboi hunters having to survive having stumbled into The Eldest beneath NYC. No hope of really defeating it, but just surviving and escaping so you can warn your boss.

>>96137402
Honestly Jack could work. He's cunning and strong, but can't throw around fuck you dice and city level powers. Part of me wants to save him for a Camarilla game though.

>>96137444
Having Epstein even be someone's ghoul is giving the guy too much credit. As for why it has to be a WW OC, that's the prompt. I usually make up most if not all of the characters for my games. There are some canon characters I do like, so I'm not against using them on occasion, but most characters are invented. This is a deliberate change of pace, and honestly more of a thought exercise I doubt anyone's gonna run something like this at my table any time soon.

>>96137489
>Yeah Vykos could work, honestly it has a fairly weak statline for how important the dick thrower is supposed to be.
Sascha Vykos, Hesha Ruhadze, Fatima al-Faqadi, Theo Bell, Jan Pieterzoon, Lucita de Aragón, most sigs can work and have something to readily cause conflict with hunters.
>Also, who the fuck is Oliver Thrace?
A shit-strirrer that summarily evicted Asian refugees back to the hell they came from. Which may or may not have worked depending on if you'd rather have Kuei Jin in your setting or not. Pretty good major warlock antagonist that doesn't come with the usual 'now you're an enemy of an entire clan' baggage and a way to work Yama Kings (who he works with, until he can usurp them, of course) into your adventure.
Himmler (yes, that Himmler) is another very good baggage-less rogue shit-stirring warlock antag, especially if you want to also fight the Nazi, or crack jokes at how he needed Vicissitude to stop looking like an untermensch loser. OTOH of course there's Totentantz, but she/it doesn't come with a statblock.

>>96136799
La-crow-ix

>>96136799
La kuro is

>>96136799
lay-crow-eeks

>>96136799
El Ay Ka-Ro-Ics
It's like LA
Cause he's in LA
Bravo Troika

>>96135127
man I just realized how lucky asian nosferatu must be with how common it is to wear face masks there

>>96135208
because they are still the spooky vampires like Nosferatu and not sexy vampires like Dracula?

>>96139110
>how lucky asian nosferatu must be
Not very lucky. Asian supernaturals hate western vampires, and have their own 'vampires' who also hate western vampires.

>>96136433
>the little buddy is still smoking a fat one
I'm glad people like this detail. It felt very....alive. Especially considering that cigarettes are burning. Ironically, being addicted to nicotine shows that the szlatcha is still living, unlike his master. But my intention was to also show that he is intelligent, unlike the other szlatcha in the picture, which is an imbecilic beast of leaking acidic bile and calloused flesh.
>pops of red and yellow naturally draw the eye around
Glad you noticed! That's exactly my intention. I felt that vivid crimson is best for communicating the viscerality of vicissitude, and the golden yellow calls to mind ancient burial cloths of gold thread.
>because the "good" either don't stay "good" or are just about guaranteed to die before reaching elder status
I agree, but I would add that as time goes on, the humanity tends to "wear away", like erosion. Leaving only the iron will that keeps an Elder from being totally devoured by their grotesquely swollen Beast.

>>96139126
>because they are still the spooky vampires
I don't want to necro the argument, but this is true of basically all vampires. They're ALL spooky. What makes Nosferatu, well, nosferatu-like, is that they LOOK horrific at even a glance.

>>96139110
Anon, vampires in china stick out like a fucking strobe light in the deep sea. Every time a vamp uses Any disciplines, it tells every asian supernatural in a 1 mile radius their exact location and that they're not supposed to be there.

>>96137302
my player really really hated(in a good way) Nicolai as antagonist as i went all in on the forced "family" aspect of him and even had him dominate and embrace a pc's sister

>>96139168
>>96139110
And picrelated is the fate of an average cainite elder trying to set shop in Asia.

>>96139193
Japan does have Tremere Chantries and Camarilla Princedoms tho so they have managed to establish themselves there

>>96139223
Tremere have countless tricks and better understanding of feng shui, that whole qi thing, than any other cainite. A chantry with a competent regent can stand up to ages of sieges.

But vampires do come to Asia. Few of them survive, usually those that managed to broker some deal with locals and/or serve as a honeypot to lure more victims for wan kuei to practice their arts.

Suffice to say, Asia isn't a p[lace where cainites feel lucky ...for long, anyway.

>>96139267
well the most notable prince is a tzimisce and futa did come from Japan...

>>96139223
to be fair the tremere get extra treatment from the kuei jin because they (supposedly) killed saulot

in fact Celestyn (former head librarian of ceoris) was even wondering if they been fucking with him because they been so nice and helpful when he went there to study Feng Shui to help re-seal Kupala(they weren't) and in the end they choose the Tremere over the Della Passaglia (giovanni family) as t the one kind of cainite allowed to be guest in their courts even though that bites them in one time of judgment scenario because you know: Tremere

which disciplines would be the best for a cainite obsessed with aura farming?

>>96139419
Presence, hands down. Distant second and third are Thaumaturgy and Obtenebration.

>>96139419
Presence followed by Chimerstry

>sleeping on fortitude

>>96139419
Fortitude, Presence and Obfuscate.
Presence is the natural for it, Majesty is basically a weaponized aura. Add King of the Hill and Flesh Wound you basically pose, seemingly take no damage and make everyone cower before you.
And this is all not even including Elders creating their own BS discipline powers for it.

after playing games like MGR Revengeance and Cyberpunk I am afraid I must admit that Iteration X is the coolest mage faction

>>96134615
>while VtR Nosferatu are like the Mystery Man in Lost Highway
This sentence has no meaning for me.

>>96135033
Uh oh, Masquerade breach! Someone get the Archon here.

>>96139622
Progenitors and Void Engineers are also pretty cool, but there's no faction that embodies becoming a killing machine as well as Iteration X, true.

>>96139860
I know that the NWO has the MiBs, but what other conventions (if any) have 'field agents' who actively go out and hunt down Reality Deviants?

>>96139622
My Nano bot infused near full borg colleague!

>>96139873
Void Engineers have teams of ghosts and spirit hunters who also sometimes deal with garou and iteration X has all that powerarmor gear that they sometimes use to wipe out sabbat nests and such, but i don't remember if the units have a actual name

and then there are of course hitmarks

>>96139897
So the Progenators are mostly in their labs and the Syndicate is mostly counting money?

>>96139873
MiBs are the second weakest kind of enforcers, for all that they're probably the most common.

Progenitors have infiltrators, cleaners and, then the problem gets really big, genetically engineered monstrosities.

Void Engineers have ghost busters and doomguy-esque space marines, but the latter are deployed offworld.

What would Tier 4 Vampire (Requiem) look like?

>>96139907
it's more stereotypical for them, but there are also short stories where they are doing field works like one of the Progenators convention books i think i was starts with the pov character meeting up with a syndicate member before having a shoot out with Verbana mages who tried to mess with medicine in the area

>>96139907
>So the Progenators are mostly in their labs and the Syndicate is mostly counting money?
Yes, but also not really. Progs usually keep to their betterment of humanity/crimes against humanity projects, but will react with the fury of a kicked hive at mere hint of nephandic fuckery and pseudo-medicine killing people or getting too much traction in the consensus.

And the only substantial difference between Men in Black and Hollow Men (Syndicate's enforcers) is that the latter doesn't care that much about law, and he WILL get the money owed.

>>96139907
Progenitors are all about biological monsters they do have action scientists, which are basically the third most combative groups after Iteration X Cyborgs and Space Marines of Void Engineers.

>>96139925
>>96139932
>>96139998
>>96140023
Good stuff; thank you all.

Completely unrelated...
Are kidnapped Enchanted in CtD ever metaphysically altered (deliberately or just by their exposure to the Dreaming) in the same way that Changelings in CtL are?

>>96139907
>>96140023
Progenitors also do clones and face snatchers. And kept psionic paradigm on life support so their infiltrators in traditions are borderline impossible to detect - while they are also the only faction in the whole WoD that can reliably breach nephandic concealment now.

>>96140073
>Are kidnapped Enchanted in CtD ever metaphysically altered (deliberately or just by their exposure to the Dreaming) in the same way that Changelings in CtL are?
To a point. A kidnapped mortal's experience can be very close to that of CtL (or not at all!), but Enchantment by its nature is a transient agreeability with the Dreaming and Glamour, not a fundamentally new existence.

heya boys

>>96139932
>with Verbana mages who tried to mess with medicine in the area
The Verbena should be dissolved as a tradition. Even the cult of ecstasy are more respectable than them.

>>96140413
The ERP thread is titled /Schreknet/ this is the thread for talking about games

>>96140452
t. seething Progenitor.

>>96140377
Interesting; thank you. I'm trying to talk my ST into giving OWoD another try, but one splat he liked WAY more in New was Changeling.

>>96140508
Old changeling is about bringing hope and wonder back in the world, despite the ever direr struggle against banality it's more noblebright, happy, whimsical and all that; new one is more in line with overarching crapsack narratives and specific theme of shitty people getting traumatised then taking it out on everyone including the hapless simulacrum that's been left in their place when they were kidnapped.

>>96140462
One, /schreck/ is dead. Two, nobody ever ERP'd there.

>>96140452
>>96140476
Many people don't like Verbena.
Personally, I do quite like naturism, but can't stand their "menstrual blood is the strongest focus" shit, and their Lilithism, because FFS, keep your Judaism in the Chorus where it belongs.

>>96137573
No Kuei-Jin, but I do appreciate a "nah, I'd win" tier Tremere. I haven't used Himmler yet, though I did allude to him back in a weird war game. I'll pay that off if we ever return to a time period after WW2. Right now my group is big into older time period games.

Thanks for all the suggestions, anon.

>>96140546
>nobody ever ERP'd there
>anon never posted on /schreknet/

>>96136113
>I like the victims of vicissitude to look very distorted and twisted up, nothing can look "healthy" when it comes to the fleshcraft.

I actually have the opposite view. When I draw tzimisce, I like to have them be elegant and effective designs for whatever purpose they were fleshcrafted for. My personal tzimisce opts to look more innocent and human, so her more monstrous parts can fold inside of her and she remains a wolf in sheep's clothing.
I think viss designs within the game are mostly intentional, and if you were fleshcrafting yourself, you would likely take the time to make the work perfect and smooth. more messy viss is for like. fusing a man's legs together so he can't run away.
attached image of my tzimisce, although I've shown her off on the board before. the more alien tzimisce designs I've done are also quite sleek though

>>96140533
>Old changeling is about bringing hope and wonder back in the world, despite the ever direr struggle against banality it's more noblebright, happy, whimsical and all that
Anon, you've outted that you didn't read the entire book.
The 1e CtD book was split into sections based on the seemings(childling, wilder, and grump). The start is whimsical because it's exclusively through the viewpoint of childlings, but if you keep reading, the viewpoint changes section-by-section until at the end it becomes depressed and the idea that the world could ever be saved is seen as an impossible dream.

>>96140575
The Lilithism aligns with pre-hebrew night goddess cults, many of which come from proto-indo-european beliefs and later had parallels in pagan Europe.
Not only menstruation has this funny and weird alignment with astrology, but I think it sort of makes sense since the Verbena are the guardians of the Life Sphere. Menstrual blood is both literally and symbolically a representation of the natural cycles of life. Not to mention that, since they're pretty much "left hand path" types, it's just normal for them to dive into all kinds of uncomfortable practices to find divinity in darkness. Whether it's bloodletting, scarification or touching icky dead fluids.

>>96140613
No, I posted there. Nobody was having their characters fuck each other.

>>96140616
>I like to have them be elegant and effective designs for whatever purpose they were fleshcrafted for.
I wqon't call your vision WRONG, because it's not. But what I think "clean and elegant" designs miss is the fact that vicissitude HURTS. And it's most often used for torture. It's also not just unnatural, but the black magic that fuels it is specifically a revolt against nature and natural symmetry.
So, to me, no matter how much time one spends on the fleshcraft, you will never end up with anything that looks healthy.
Adding to that, Tzimisce recruit from already pretty sick fucks, and Vicissitude itself tends to further disturb the mind.

That's why I chose to draw my Tzimisce the way I did. It's to show that vicissitude is not biomancy or gene-editing, it's black magic.

>>96140697
>is the fact that vicissitude HURTS
Not necessarily though. Viss use doesn't have to hurt, but you can use it to hurt people. Tzimisce are known just as much for using Viss for pleasure-practices as to inflict pain. They call themselves ecstatic scholars for a reason anon.

>>96140653
Of course there's some defeatism and eschatological tones because it's mandatory in the WoD, you fool, but Dreaming is way more vibrant and less crap than most other lines and CtL specifically. For all that the CtD world is threatened by ever growing Banality and CtL just wallows in its misery.

>>96136113
>>96140616
>>96140697
>>96140711
>tfw the koldunes argue how a proper tzimisce should look and act.
Glad to see the "no true tzimisce" fallacy is still going strong.

>>96140711
But vicissitude when used plainly DOES hurt. You're physically twisting and distorting flesh with evil magic. The pleasure is only because A) vampires are very resistant to most physical pain and B) Tzimisce might decide to put in the effort to make it feel good.
But having your eyes dissolved and your forehead turned into a flap of unfeeling calloused tissue and your legs folded up into stabbing blades is probably not going to feel good.
I think it's a matter of theme. Do you want Tzimisce to be like cyberpunk body modders, or vampiric horrors?
Tzimisce being unpleasant and vicissitude being unpleasant are because they are evil, that's basically how I feel.
Vicissitude is like rape at the cellular-level.

>>96140733
Endless circular arguments are a /tg/ classic.

>>96140746
>But vicissitude when used plainly DOES hurt.
Again, not necessarily. The are plenty of ways IRL to twist flesh into unnatural forms and make the entire experience pleasurable. Dark magic is also known for causing unnatural pleasure.
Vicissitude doesn't need to hurt unless the user wants it to.

>>96140746
>that's basically how I feel.
So you're trying to psh your headcanon as something all tzimisce needs to conform to?

>>96140533
I think Lost is more positive, it's about reclaiming your life and stuff like that. Dreaming is just Gen X bullshit about how modernity is bad because the normies are oppressing the true special snowflakes, much like Ascension.

>>96140729
Can dreamingfags just appreciate their own game without trying to put Lost down? Especially with such falsehoods. Lost is not misery porn, there is a court all about joy and pleasure. In fact, one of the reasons I like Lost so much is it isn't a monofocus game. You were taken, changed, and escaped (or in some cases discarded). What will you do now? The default is "oh shit gotta avoid my keeper" but that needn't be the structure of your chronicle. The Faerie is beautiful and wondrous, but it's also dangerous and amoral. It's a fun game, you are encouraged to play a balancing act between the mortal world (clarity) and the hedge (wyrd). It's a good, versatile game and calling it banal is about as reductive as calling CtD a game where taxes are metaphysically evil and will kill your precious otherkin ass.

>>96140795
>Dreaming is just Gen X bullshit about how modernity is bad because the normies are oppressing the true special snowflakes, much like Ascension.
Looking at the world as it is right now? They might have had a point.

>>96140697
> Tzimisce recruit from already pretty sick fucks
ahhh fair enough. I prefer older or cam tzimisce to sabbat sadists myself, but that branch of the clan... fucked in the head isn't the wrong way to describe them.
but also, viss isn't always painful
>>96140711
for a lot of tzimisce, fleshcrafting themselves is an attempt to become better- it's uplifting to them. is it good for torturing mortals? absolutely, but that isn't the only thing the discipline does.

on a personal level, i really enjoy taking features from weird animals in nature and putting them on a Tzimisce, or puzzling out how they could have changed themselves.
I have a tzimisce who needs to fit in extremely tight spaces, and squeeze themselves through cracks, so they don't have any bones at all, and instead have cartilage or just flesh to make compressing easier.

>>96140670
>The Lilithism aligns with pre-hebrew night goddess cults, many of which come from proto-indo-european beliefs and later had parallels in pagan Europe.
See, it's precisely the writers trying to conflate Judaism rubbish that is already extremely over-represented in WoD with OLD faith that gets to me. FFS, there's too way too much Abrachamic religion clubs already, yet Egyptian, Celtic or Fennoscandian magical traditions are barely a footnote!
And there's nothing particularly wrong with blood, but to claim that excremental blood is strongest substance possible is retarded. Hell no it ain't, it's nothing compared to heart's blood and old growth.

Page 10, we need new thread.

>>96140772
If someone bends your leg over your shoulder, shoves your foot in your belly button, and then melds your toes with your diaphragm, it's gonna hurt. Unless they also move your nerves around, which will also probably hurt too until the nerves are reknit just right. Just consider it logically.
>Dark magic is also known for causing unnatural pleasure.
Usually for the practitioner. But I'd pose a counter question: why do you WANT vicissitude to feel good and be a desirable fate? The Tzimisce are some of the worst vampires, basically as a rule, so why try to soften them up?
>>96140778
Well, I DID say this is just how I (strongly) feel. And while I feel that my vision is more thematically consistent with how the Tzimisce are written, it's not like the other anon is explicitly WRONG.

>>96140733
i don't think there's a proper way, i just love the tzimisce and I'm happy to discuss their designs
i think designing a form to fit a specific purpose and make them more effective hunters is the way to go, but I'm fond of fucked up flesh blob horrors as well

>>96140803
>I prefer older or cam tzimisce to sabbat sadists myself
Old Clan is weird, but aren't any nicer than vicissitude Tzimisce. Camarilla Tzimisce are exactly the same as Sabbat Tzimisce, they just are temporarily working with the Camarilla.
>>96140828
>i think designing a form to fit a specific purpose
I don't see how this translates to: "It feels good and the resulting creation looks attractive or healthy by human standards.

>>96140802
nta, you can identify a problem and not propose very good solutions. I have a lot of problems with modernity, and not just surface level wealth inequality but I actually would agree with the idea that, despite all the good scientific advancement has done, materialism as a cultural philosophy leaves us spiritually deficient. Which is a charitable interpretation of the politics of Mage, a game I can't stand.

I IRL agree with a lot of the anti-modernity stuff that frankly dominates most of the oWoD games, but I think the way they go about it is fairly juvenile and lacks nuance.

>>96140820
Let us get the arguments out of our system so nobody brings the baggage cross-thread.

>>96140843
>Let us get the arguments out of our system so nobody brings the baggage cross-thread.
Not that guy, but you know damn well its following.

>>96140821
>If someone bends your leg over your shoulder, shoves your foot in your belly button, and then melds your toes with your diaphragm
Minus the obvious magic, there's literally people paid thousand of dollars to do that shit to people, because doing it right is extremely pleasurable. Moving nerves also wouldn't be painful, it wouldn't "feel" like anything, because those nerves are the thing feeling pain/pleasure. It's the same reason third degree burns often don't hurt, because the nerves that would feel pain are just Gone.

>>96140842
>It feels good and the resulting creation looks attractive or healthy by human standards.
Because the specific purpose obviously can't include blending into human society or manipulating people right?

>>96140853
> there's literally people paid thousand of dollars to do that shit to people
Can you give a single example of something like what I said happening irl. And without anesthetic.

Why do you WANT, again for the purposes of thematics, vicissitude to feel good and end up looking healthy?
>>96140864
>can't include blending into human society or manipulating people right
Yep. That's for Obfuscate and Dominate and so on. Vicissitude is for making horrors and spreading fear, misery, and pain. For defiling flesh and making a mockery out of life itself.
It's an expression of Evil, not a fun thing for clubbers to do, after all.

>>96140853
Isn't moving nerves pretty high level vicissitude?

Vic as a whole has a problem where it's perceived as being able to do more than what it can mechanically. The lower levels are very brute force save dot 1. The twisted creations make a hell of a lot more sense when you remember how direct dots 2 and 3 are, which is going to be the bread and butter of the vast majority of Tzimisce.

>>96140873
>Yep. That's for Obfuscate and Dominate and so on.
This has to be bait. I refuse to believe you're unironically this retarded.

>>96140873
>Can you give a single example of something like what I said happening irl.
Yoga.

>>96140842
> resulting creation looks attractive or healthy by human standards
i don't think any tzimisce would look appealing by human standards unless they specialized in social and made themselves unusually attractive. that's not really what I'm talking about, so much as that i think most tzimisce would design themselves to be efficient in some way, or that they would have purpose in the changes they make to themselves
>. Camarilla Tzimisce are exactly the same as Sabbat Tzimisce,
no, the big difference is that instead of making individual people suffer you can abuse systems of power to maximize suffering of the lower class.

>>96140873
>Why do you WANT, again for the purposes of thematics, vicissitude to feel good and end up looking healthy?
Because boiling down an entire clan into a single, one-note theme is a sign of a bad ST with no imagination.

I'm making my next tzimisce an ecstatic yogi that uses vissitude to unlock the highest levels of enlightenment through inducing joy.

>>96140892
I'm sorry, but it's just how it is. If what you want is to manipulate people and control them with your beauty and blend in with humans, you don't want vicissitude.
>>96140897
>most tzimisce would design themselves to be efficient in some way
What do you mean by "efficient"? Because a Tzimisce might think that a szlatcha that can kill its enemies and also was "fun" to make (i.e. the poor thing is constantly howling in pain and can no longer speak but only bubble and gurgle), is plenty efficient. If by efficient, you mean, "looks pretty", then I'd still ask "why"?
>you can abuse systems of power to maximize suffering of the lower class
Tzimisce working with the Camarilla don't care about abstract stuff like that. They're purely there for their own purposes.
>>96140901
And I would say that thematically muddying the waters and watering down horror of the Tzimisce is the sign of a bad ST who cannot handle body horror and running truly despicable characters (whom all Tzimisce are).

>>96140653
The problem some people have with the old version of Changeling is how they felt rather superfluous in some regards while suffering from the "it was all a dream" problem. Tangetial as hell but did anyone found their lore interesting? I can't recal any of their stuff.

>>96140916
Might as well!

>>96140934
>And I would say that thematically muddying the waters and watering down horror of the Tzimisce is the sign of a bad ST who cannot handle body horror and running truly despicable characters (whom all Tzimisce are)
Because being part of a clan is what defines everything about a character right? Absolutely not who they were before and after the embrace, with the clan just adding a new dimension to them. There definitely wouldn't be any complex character dynamics in the game about complex character dynamics.

>>96140960
Tzimisce Embrace from sick bastards, and vampires are not nice creatures. Tzimisce are THAT Clan where pretty much all of them are degenerate scum who really, really like being as evil as possible.
Its like the Baali. If you want to play a character who isnt an abusive monster, then dont play Tzimisce.
Its like wanting to play a sexy Nosferatu. It just doesn't gel.

Gonna weigh in on this vicissitude debate.

On one hand, it can feel very limiting to require that the overwhelming majority of tzimisce look like twisted, masquerade violating monstrosities. At the same time, when people use it to make themselves look hot (especially as an obtainable goal rather than a disguise) or "cool" rather than horrifying (monstrousness can look aesthetic) it can feel like a shallow attempt at wish fulfillment rather than anything more substantive. The Path of Metamorphosis, which is the default path for Tzimisce, encourages constant change (physically) anyway, so I would say a good litmus test for if a player is cooking or just being indulgent is if they regularly make new changes or discard previous shapes altogether.

In terms of canon examples and mechanics, the monstrous freak angle is especially supported for Elders, which is interesting since they would theoretically have the most ability to make something not freakish. Mechanically it doesn't state if Vicissitude is painful but I would argue since the alternate fifth dot Inner Mastery specifies nerves, you'd need to administer a mundane anesthetic until you have that power or a similar one, moving people's muscle and bone around would hurt like a motherfucker. The seemed mandatory twistedness as one advances in their use of the discipline is why the infamous Space AIDs plot happened.

Personally, I'm not so strict that I think all Tzimisce must look freaky, but I also think people who use vicissitude as garden variety biomancy are missing the point a little bit. Tzimisce don't embrace good doctors, they embrace Dr. Mengele. Whether or not you could is honestly the secondary concern, much of a clan's stereotypical behavior is a self-selecting culture, which you need to factor in unless you're playing a pseudo-caitiff.

>>96140960
Also consider, as vampires age, they lose their humanity, generally speaking. So an Elder Tzimisce will simply lose the ability to CARE about other people's pleasure.
They become cold, hard, dead. Black hearts and black souls.

>>96141003
>Its like the Baali.
The baali explicitly ambrace good people for the lulz, the same way a noz will embrace supermodels. The books also openly calls the ST a pseud if they try to handwave the embrace as the reason someone becomes a monster, a running theme in vampire is that becoming a monster is always A Choice.

>>96140801
Chill, don't take it too personally anon. It's fine to like Lost, it's fine to like the Dreaming. They're different games. Different focus, different things they do better.

As for issues with Lost that aren't issues in Dreaming, firstly it's the whole abuse victim bit. Secondly it's the whining all over the place, and although not all of it's bad often-bland art direction doesn't really help, especially with retrospective to vibrant Dreaming. Thirdly it's True Fae wank, all of it. Lastly and most importantly is the darker mindset it cultivates in GMs, Lost can be jailbroken, but most people running ain't going to bother. Not to say Lost isn't good at what it focuses on.

Playing Lost themes straight Fetches are more interesting than Changelings to me, both in first steps of their existence, discovering that all their life is a lie/there's a murderous fairy doppelganger after them, and in the context of answering what are we going to do now question?
>calling CtD a game where taxes are metaphysically evil and will kill your precious otherkin ass.
You can take everything personally and be miserable while putting a smile on, or you can laugh at the joke... some would say that's the difference between Lost and Dreaming, but that would also be reductive.

>>96141035
Careful, the amount of seething that admitting "a good baali" is both a possible and likely situation according to canon is known to cause an amazing amount of seething from VtM fans.

>>96141069
If you think I'm fuming or anything, you're off the mark. I'd agree that Lost and Dreaming are different games, which is why I dislike when Lost is insulted, inaccurately at that, in an attempt to put up Dreaming. That's all.

>>96141035
My point was that the Tzimisce are moral monsters.
I also never said the Embrace makes them monsters. Just that they Embrace evil people, and the vampiric condition makes the degeneration easier.

>>96141107
>all people of this group do [thing] exactly the same and without exceptions or exceptions are so rare they're practically unknown
Anyone that knows anything about how real people act knows this is an unrealistic take.

ERP anon still hasn't delivered.

>>96141102
It is pretty easy to insult Lost, plus it is also probably the gameline most different from it's counterpart in WoD, even more than DTD in my opinion. Which was one of the reasons it got a bad rep when WoD ended and CTD audience was given Lost as a replacement.

>>96141221
No, I'm pretty sure Lost has been more popular than Dreaming ever since it was created. Frankly, I think the "haters" came out of the woodwork because it became cool to hate "personal horror" since WoD5.

>>96141221
>Which was one of the reasons it got a bad rep when WoD
Nah, as much as Dreaming fans didn't like it, everyone who wanted grimderp and didn't get it with Dreaming did.
It's consistently fourth. Sometimes as high as second, as OPP leadership traditionally shits themselves with both mages, not everyone wants to play a raging furfag, and vampire player base gets leeched by old setting.

>>96141101
I feel like what you're really asking is for it to make any difference when a humane Baali still owes their blood to a coven, which is assuredly nearby because that twerp couldn't survive alone.

>>96141335
Lost was much more popular (and generally praised) when I first started posting on WoD general back in like 2014. Actually most discussion was NuMage and VtM. The surge of oWoD discussion besides VtM has been relatively recent.

If I had to guess as to why, I'd guess it's similar to the boost in popularity the EU got after Disney came in. Prior to that the EU was at best considered a mixed bag, now you have people swearing it was peak. WoD5 skinsuits oWoD and suddenly people rally behind oWoD. That and as discussed early the anti-modernity aspects of many oWoD games aged well, even if I think their analysis was off the mark, they can be right that an issue exists.

I really enjoyed Lost, but was never crazy about NWoD in general.

>>96141393
Requiem has some stuff in it I really like, but it's in an unfortunate middle ground where it's too close to Masquerade for people that want something different, and not close enough to Masquerade for the people that wanted metaplot free, looser setting Masquerade. I never gave Forsaken much attention but once I actually gave it a good look I've warmed up to it. It changed most of the things I disliked about Apocalypse. Ran Geist once. Was pretty fun. Obviously I like Lost. Hunter the Vigil though is hands down my favorite WoD game.

I also think much of nWoD's best stuff is hidden away in splat-neutral books. Inferno, Immortal, and Skinchangers are all quite solid.

>>96141393
It's not bad. Hunter is pretty good.

CoD suffers from blandification of everything, questionable development choices, and publisher's neglect.

There's also the problem that its systems aren't inherently intuitive like old WoD's, so getting players into it is always as much of a chore as getting them to learn GURPS, for all that the latter is more complex.

>>96141482
>There's also the problem that its systems aren't inherently intuitive like old WoD's, so getting players into it is always as much of a chore as getting them to learn GURPS, for all that the latter is more complex.
Ok, I will bite. How the is CofD more complicated to teach? If anything, it leaves the bullshit as optional stuff that's easily hand-waved by the ST rather than part of the core rules.
As for the lore, they didn't find a good substitute for the metaplot that killed the WoD, so there's no connective tissue between the interesting points because everything is supposed to stand on its own.

>>96141124
>Anyone that knows anything about how real people act knows this is an unrealistic take.
When you make a character, you are bound by the restrictions and the nature of the Clan they're Embraced into.
One of the Clan themes of the Tzimisce? They are MONSTERS on the inside and outside. Before the Embrace they're sickos, and after the Embrace they're sickos. And you gain respect and esteem in the Clan by BEING ever increasing levels of evil, in the way of vicissitude and ever more horrific creations and acts with it.

So I'll ask again: if you don't like the aspect of the Tzimisce that has them as undead torture-surgeons, then why play them? That's basically their entire shtick (and not furry OC body-modding, go play Cyberpunk or whatever for that).
I'm sorry, but Tzimisce are not good people, and most of the time they weren't good BEFORE they were Embraced.

>>96140934
>What do you mean by "efficient"?
they can fulfill the task with minimum resources for the maximum benefit. so a tzimisce without bones would be able to fit into tight spaces, a tzimisce with bone plate armor might be able to soak damage more easily etc
>>96141003
>Tzimisce Embrace from sick bastards,
not always? i mean, yeah that's common in the sabbat, but if you're playing a sabbat chronicle all of your characters are going to be evil bastards
>>96141020
> At the same time, when people use it to make themselves look hot
yeah i don't really care for plastic surgery style tzimisce. when i say elegant, i mean it in the same sense of bats large ears enabling echolocation. when i design tzimisce i like to steal traits or ideas from different animals, particularly the weird ones. Like goblin sharks can dislocate their jaw to grab food out of the water in front of them, that would make for a banger tzimisce morph. same with a tzimisce having color-changing skin for camouflage or whatnot. i think vampires are predators, and Tzimisce would make changes that allow them to hunt better.

>>96141584
>When you make a character, you are bound by the restrictions and the nature of the Clan they're Embraced into.
No you are not and the game goes out of its way to emphasise this. For fucks sake, one of the first ventrue character was an autistic train kids with no social or background dots. Anon, this isn't an opinion, you're objectively and provably wrong.

>>96141101
Have you read the black hand books anon? "Good Baali" have been canon for a while now.

>>96141616
>VtM autist has shit headcanon
Many such cases.

>>96141610
> so a tzimisce without bones would be able to fit into tight spaces...
Well in that case, you won't find disagreement from me!
>not always?
Almost always, yes. And even the ones that aren't sick bastards, are still pretty freaky people and being Embraqced isn't exactly good for your soul.
>when i design tzimisce i like to steal traits or ideas from different animals, particularly the weird ones.
If you mean that literally, that's just Gangrel. Tzimisce do something else. The giant ears will literally be humungous human ears, or abstract cones of swiveling flesh.
>>96141616
> one of the first ventrue character was an autistic train kids with no social or background dots
That's not in contravention to the Clan, and also, wasn't that the character with ZERO Humanity? If so, then there's no way that's canon anymore because that's just a wight. Aka literally not a person anymore.

>>96141584
>One of the Clan themes of the Tzimisce? They are MONSTERS on the inside and outside
no?
that's just kinda blatantly false. The tzimisce are often performative in their monsterhood, but one of the points of the clan is that every vampire is a monster; the tzimisce just choose to look the part. And in spite of them claiming to embrace monsterhood, they are the most tied to humanity out of every clan due to their bane: they will literally die if they don't carry a piece of their mortal life with them.
writers do simplify them down into irredeemable gross monsters, but that's a really boring take on the clan since every vtm clan is terrible, and i much prefer the books in which they're about ceasing to be human and what makes somebody a monster.

>>96141655
>wasn't that the character with ZERO Humanity?
Humanity 1 actually.

>>96141655
>That's not in contravention to the Clan
Anon, having high social and background dots absolutely is a convention in the clan. We're talking about the clan with both social disciplines and the literal "default prince" clan..

>>96141708
>>96141708
>>96141708
Premature thread

>>96141655
autismo train guy and several other of Chicago 1e's NPCs were Humanity 0 but it was an extremely early book. later on the ones that were still around were shunted to Humanity 1/2 or put on a Path.

>>96141691
No he was posted earlier, and has Humanity 0. Some very early sheets did this, I don't think Drummond is a good example to bring up in general. He was created very early on before they set up clan culture for the Ventrue and because Chicago is important they can't retcon him.

https://whitewolf.fandom.com/wiki/Edgar_Drummond?so=search

>>96141712
Guys don't crossthread the debate. Keep it here.

>>96141676
Firstly
>bane
V5 detected, into the trash compactor it goes.
Secondly, even with their classic weakness, that does not tie them to Humanity. They are probably the FURTHEST from Humanity than any other Clan, and you even agree with me later in your very same post. They ARE monsters who depart from their humanity.
Guess what? That makes them evil bastards.
>>96141691
Ah nvm then.
>>96141704
Being an autistic structure freak does not go against the fundamental theme of their clan though. But also what >>96141728 said, I didn't know he was from that early in the game's history. So it makes sense why he is a weird exception.

>>96141393
>Ran Geist once. Was pretty fun.
First time I hear about someone running Geist. What was your game about?

>>96141728
Oh wait a second its THIS guy. Yeah, he's not a gurgling, drooling retard. He fits fine as a Ventrue. He runs a train network, the model train shit is a hobby of his.

>>96141582
>they didn't find a good substitute for the metaplot that killed the WoD, so there's no connective tissue between the interesting points because everything is supposed to stand on its own.
The metaplot isn't the reason why old WoD was so beloved, many if not most players hated every change and turn imposed by it. What made the old WoD compelling and popular was the pitch, the style and the writing, the design of Mark Rein-Hagen and Stewart Wieck, and the setting, the world-building that followed. Hell, many a splat got shitty bits inserted and many a subfaction were shitty ideas at their conception courtesy of the absolute imbecile Travis Williams, but even they were salvaged into something that found devoted fans by their first clanbooks and setting supplements.

>>96141610
>when i design tzimisce i like to steal traits or ideas from different animals, particularly the weird ones.

Personally I think just aping animals steps on the Gangrel's toes a little too much, and dilutes the esoteric angle to Tzimisce clan culture. I'm not against it as a single character or lone brood, but as a baseline it's not my jam.

Actually I think that's a good note to end on. There's nothing wrong with having a character that runs contrary to conventional clan culture. Where problems can emerge is when these contrary characters become more common than the baseline, or worse do not suffer socially for running directly contrary to their lineage's expectations and traditions. It's like how Ventrue are supposed to make up the majority of Princes, but many tables will go out of their way to avoid having a Ventrue Prince because it's the default, and often, they don't actually do anything particularly interesting with the atypical setup.

By all means, run whatever you like, I can't badwrongfun you and my own table is quite far from the setting default. I merely want to express in a measured way why orthodoxy, and a prevalence of characters that reinforce it matters. If they do not exist, unorthodox characters are far less interesting.

>>96141655
>If you mean that literally, that's just Gangrel. Tzimisce do something else. The giant ears will literally be humungous human ears, or abstract cones of swiveling flesh.
One of the powers of vicissitude literally turns you into man-bat.

>>96141829
It's described and depicted inconsistently. Sometimes it just gives the Zulo wings, other times its a perverse man-bat, sometimes its literally just a giant bat.

>>96141858
I mean, that suits the Tzimisce. No two fiends are going to be different even if it kills them.

>>96141879
Fair. Frankly I never liked the Marauder form because it felt TOO Gangrel derivative, and kinda stupid to me. It's literally just vampires = bats. Kinda dull.

>>96141890
It's flight. Flying is cool. And doesn't need to be a bat, could be zulo with wings to your tastes, even a mockery of an angel.

I'd rather be a Gargoyle with Tremere tagged as an ally or mentor, though. Don't need to convince the DM to play an elder, and fire-breathing flying rock monster is cooler than anything fleshy.

>>96141913
I think it woild be neat if a Zulo gained MASSIVE lungs, and tubes on its back, that when breath was exhaled, the cold wind of the vampires unliving respiration would send the creature rocketing into the sky. And then gliding membranes would takr care of the rest.

>>96142046
Will be appropriate for Tzimisce with Aerodynamics Science speciality. Great thing about Tzimisce is that you can fluff the appearance and workings however you want as long as you more or less play by the book where rolls are involved.

>>96142200
Can't Tzimisce control wind with koldunism? That opens up a lot of opportunities.

>>96141797
ah I'm not actually taking animal features so much as stealing inspiration for the biology of the Tzimisces design. They are still gross and fleshy because i like that a lot more than actual animal features. Additionally, I have only played evil tzimisce myself, I just don't think any clan is more evil than the others, other than, like the Tremere.
>>96141740
I don't even play v5, i just like the word bane. rest assured I am talking about the depiction of them in revised and 20th.
I think it's a fundamental philosophical disagreement here, because I don't think humanity is naturally good or something to aspire to, humans are capable of evil too. being inhuman doesn't automatically make you evil I think

>>96142213
Yeah. They can fly with Koldunism, though, so Marauder form is kind of redundant.

I'm not a fan of mixing Koldunism with Vicissitude personally, if I play a Koldun I play Old Clan, and if I don't I learn Thaumaturgy.

>>96142222
> I don't think humanity is naturally good or something to aspire to
Then you literally don't get VtM and it's central theme. Hell, the Humanity scale literally has the highest level of Humanity being "SAINTLY" and the lowest level as "HORRIFIC". In VtM, humanity is good, and the more human you are, the better. Most humans aren't even Humanity 10.
The basic philosophy of VtM is that the further you drift from humanity, the more evil you are. You even physically change with lower humanity. You start to LOOK like a monster, and more and more corpse-like, regardless of Clan.

>>96142222
>I don't think humanity is naturally good or something to aspire to, humans are capable of evil too.
>>96142264
>In VtM, humanity is good, and the more human you are, the better. Most humans aren't even Humanity 10.

This is an understandable conflict. VtM's worst aged aspect is how it makes such a fuss about retaining that which makes you human, but in practice Humanity is just the contemporary morals of the time, applied rather strictly and without much mechanical consideration for circumstance and nuance.

I would agree conceptually that the idea of needing to hold on to that which makes you human should be a major factor in VtM, the issue lies in the execution. It's never going to be easy to quantify mechanically what makes someone human, granted, but you'd have less disconnects like this if one tried a little harder.

>>96140413

Don't mistake Humanity and humanity.

>>96142674
>Call something Humanity
>It doesn't measure your humanity

sasuga, white wolf

>>96142699
That or there's a similar relationship between Humanity and humanity as there is between History and history.

>>96142778
nah man that's cope. Humanity is so poorly designed they had to invent paths and roads as an ugly patch job to its many issues.

>>96142835
Nah, they had to invent roads and path to allow power gamers to be rewarded for abusing their powers in the most sociopathic ways instead of risking dice malus during the day and character decomission to the Beast.
That said, yeah, Humanity was never a good system.