>scares fantasy to the fucking bones

but yeah ig it's ok to have wizards bascily be demi gods (or just become gods lol)

it make armor junk

>>96131114 (OP)
the only reason why that'd be for wizards only would be if wizards are NPCs rather than playable.
If they're just a character class, then really any player character could become a demi god or an actual god if it makes sense for the campaign.

>>96131114 (OP)
Keep your forked tongue behind your shit colored teeth you spanning cuckold pig.

>>96131114 (OP)
>Guns
>Again

For fucks sake, how many times does this need to be explained?
Guns don't work in fantasy settings because gun fags are the biggest autists on Earth who demand a pepper box, pocket pistol fire a cannonball sized hole through a dragon's skull from 300 yards away and have infinite ammo or other dumb shit.

If you just say it deals around the same damage as a bow and is noisy, they sperg the fuck out hard. Fuck em.

>>96131114 (OP)
Same with Warriors who can just fucking end things in his way without magic just the human spirit and rage.

>>96131293
Guns do more damage than bows.
Go hunting and find out.

>>96131293
Guns don't break fantasy at all. Even modern guns can struggle to kill some real world big game. They also shared the battlefield with armor for hundreds of years. The problem is when someone tries to apply too much engineering and chemical knowledge. That gets tedious, and suddenly you have a player making world changing discoveries, just because they want to kill something faster. I think that players shouldn't get to invent technology that doesn't exist in the setting.

>>96131365
You do a lot of hunting with your unrifled black powder flintlock musket?

>>96131114 (OP)
>this shit again
Get raped and die

>>96131114 (OP)
It doesn't.

As far as table top goes it's a failure to get over the mental hurdle of abstracting guns as another weapon one can use because it's either a weak as shit weapon that takes 5 billion years to reload or its an instant kill engine of death that leads to the extinction of the setting.

Otherwise, it's a matter of the presence of guns breaking the emersion of those who think their particular idea of what fantasy is and should be should be the only interpretation and have autistic prolapses when they see anything else.

>>96131114 (OP)
Firearms have been in the 5e DMG since the game was released.

>>96131378
You say unrifled like it adds a damage modifier.
(It's an accuracy modifier)

>>96131293
>how many times does this need to be explained?
>proceeds to give the wrongest explanation anyone has ever given about the guns and fantasy issue
The issue is that D&D doesn't prominently feature guns and keeps them hidden away as an optional rule in the one book no one ever fucking reads, so D&D players wrongly assume and then later convince themselves that guns don't exist in D&D (and thus all fantasy, because they don't actually engage with the genre at all) because of genre reasons, balance reasons, or because of historical accuracy.

>>96131126
YES MAGIC DOES THIS!!!

>>96131305
orc spirit and rage*

humans are weak default fags

>>96131293
You guys decided t hat you wanted /tg/ to be a nonstop repetition of these threads when the Jannies banned everything else.

Enjoy the doomed world you helped to create. It will just be this over and over forever.

>>96131365
Until around 1900 a bow with a 60 pound draw weight would indeed cause more damage than typical muskets.

Bows take time to train to use properly, musket training to get someone proficient with them takes around a week. That's having them learn servicing, powder care, everything. The biggest draw to firearms was extreme ease of use.

>>96131475
Rifelings main reason is to increase accuracy by imparting spin. Rifeling also, as an unforseen byproduct, also slightly increases velocity imparting more speed. More speed and same mass equals more force, hence more damage. Not by a lot, mind you, however, it is indeed there.

Perfect way to solve firearms.

Any projectile weapon that doesn't rely on your actual physical strength to launch it does set damage.

Bows have str rating to use them so having extra strength doesn't make you shoot the bow farther or do more damage.

Dex will never be a damage stat and is primarily used for accuracy or actions that require delicate/careful movements.

Physical speed is tied to STR as all body related things should.

>>96131568
No, this board is just shit.
I can't count how many times someone has started a thread to discuss a new game or topic in general and it just marched to page 10 with no interaction while kobold and skaven thirst threads get a shitload of replies or one of the thirteen different 40k threads just keeps raking in autists.

>>96131114 (OP)
>now the lich has a gun
What now smart guy?

>>96131590
Spinning bullets also yaw and sometimes fragment once they hit something, which further increases the damage. Musket balls don't do any of that. One of the reasons the next gen assault rifle for the US military is going to be .277 instead of 5.56 NATO is because 5.56 doesn't reliably generate enough velocity to do all that extra business.

>>96131595
That doesn't solve anything because the issue has never been about guns, it's been about gunfags shitting up the topic every time.

>>96131523
magic rare

>>96131126
>laughs in 2nd level spell Heat Metal, 1 action, range 60 ft, Concentration, up to 1 Minute, a manufactured metal object, such as a metal weapon or a suit of heavy or medium metal armor, that I can see within range, I cause the object to glow red-hot, causing any creature in physical contact with that object to take 2d8 fire damage, and as a bonus action, I can cause the damage again as a bonus action, and if the creature holding or wearing the objection, they must succeed a Con save or drop the object, if they can, but if they don't drop the object, they have disadvantage on all attack rolls and ability checks until the start of my next turn
>also I can cast it in a higher slot to increase the damage by 1d8 for each slot level

>>96131611
Literally not the issue, retard.

>>96131611
The only bitching I see in this thread is from anti-gunfags that don't know how firearms work.

>>96131673
>drinks fire resistance potion
nothing personal kiddo

>>96131568
You and I both know the jannies are fucking faggots of the highest order and don't align to the interests of the plebs they overlook, don't go insinuating anyone wanted this beyond gook moot

>>96131570
>Until around 1900 a bow with a 60 pound draw weight would indeed cause more damage than typical muskets.
lmao

>>96131698
Enjoy wasting your uncommon item to only take half damage, while still needing to make saves and suffering disadvantage. Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm just going to move out of range and cast magic missile at you from a safe distance for the rest of the fight, while sustaining Heat Metal on your armor.

>>96131590
>Rifeling also, as an unforseen byproduct, also slightly increases velocity
lol no
Where did you hear that nonsense?

>>96131726
There's no safe distance, I have a gun

>>96131590
>philosophically adds science pathologically
Rifiling does two things.

One, it allows gasses to escape around the bullet projectile to allow HIGHER pressure loads to pass around before the bullet reaches a velocity that won't breach the barrel.

Two, rifling like old arrows of yore, causes a spin which is a impartial force of stability. Bullet drop will have the bullet aiming forward, thus striking at an angle not that of the facing of the projectile.

Your reasoning sharing none of this is just another video gamer pretending.

There are rounds that do not require rifling to remain stable, shotgun slug "lady hips" and tank sabot rounds have this technology.

>>96131114 (OP)
Do you have any idea how many big and popular fantasy setting have guns?

>Guns don't work in fantasy settings
Warhammer Fantasy
Age of Sigmar
Warcraft
Ebberon
Runeterra
Exandria
Golarion

and those just come to mind without even bothering to think about it

>>96131114 (OP)
What the fuck are you talking about?

>>96131762
>One, it allows gasses to escape around the bullet projectile
Rifled muskets would actually have a tighter gas seal, because unrifled muskets were like ~.03" under bore and used paper wadding

>>96131114 (OP)
What the fuck are you talking about?

>BUT MUH TESTS OF STRENGTH MUH ROMANTICISM!!!!!!!!!!!!
Time moves on, the orcs will be crushed by the might of innovation, the dragons will be driven to extinction as they're shot out of the sky. tyrannical warrior kings will and so called heroes will be brought low, and mages will answer for their oppression of non-magic users by the might of gunpowder.

>>96131607
Undead army with guns is basically unbeatable.

>>96131754
Now you're getting it.

>>96131770
>Tranny settings have guns

>>96131293
For my homebrew I did the following with guns
>Same base damage as bows but higher armor penetration
>Takes a turn to reload
One of my players actually switches between a rifle and a bow mid combat depending on what the armor of an enemy is :)

>>96131114 (OP)
I let my players have guns, because I own both a blackpowder rifle and pistol. If you want to spend five rounds reloading your rifle, who am I to stop you?

>>96131114 (OP)
>This shit for the billionth time

>>96131378
Black powder guns have insane muzzle energy and stopping power due to their large caliber, it wouldn't be equalled by cartridge firearms for like 50 years.

Educational:
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7kVjpVNgq8

>>96131114 (OP)
>fantasy
>wizards become gods
yeah, it's called fantasy. If you want gun go learn to shoot.

Have you tried not playing DnD?

>>96132374
D&D had guns since at least 2e.

>>96131114 (OP)
ok anon you can have your gun. good luck adventuring in the wilderness and technological backwaters where you will never be able to resupply on ammo and powder

>>96131770
warcraft isn't true fantasy IMO because it fluctuates between having literal helicarriers and spaceships and being standard medieval fantasy depending on the story being told

>>96132402
OD&D had sci-fi laser guns.

>>96131595
PF2e does exactly this

Pillars of Eternity did a nice job of working firearms into a fantasy setting, I thought. Shame the latest game was kind of a disappointment.

>>96131126
armor and guns co existed for over 200 years. In DnD this argument holds even less water because a gun is just a damage roll after a sucessful attack roll like any other weapon and not in fact any better at defeating armor than a sword.

>>96132538
Yeah, if you count stuff from Expedition to the Barrier Peaks but OP is talking about gunpowder guns.

>>96131126
Not until you exit High Medieval/Renaissance and properly enter Early Modern, and even that's more about cost-effectiveness and weight constraints than technical ability, both of which vanish into common abstractions of game systems.

>>96131293
I personally would adore the typical backup-crossbow to be replaced at higher levels by an alchemical device that allows more intense and reliable burst-damage by increasing cost and reload time proportionately.

>>96131372
>I think that players shouldn't get to invent technology that doesn't exist in the setting.
Or you can shove it in a shared design space with the fantastical counterparts like magical banners improving entire companies.

>>96131570
Think it's more like 100 pound that outdid impact energy, unless you mean the crazy-efficient composite recurves, and even then there's a whole mess of comparative effect versus armor by type, wound channels, and extraction.

>>96131595
I could see a scale of thrown-bow-crossbow-gun for Strength to cost, where you can put arbitrary Strength into thrown-type weapons (including slings and stuff like atlatls), bows cost more with a range of required to maximum applicable Strength, crossbows let you reach a higher effective Strength at the yet-further cost of the furnishings to store it and time spent winding, then guns are pure complex expense.

Required skill usually trends as a corollary to potential Strength input, but the design space of it being a second axis through funkier weapons and exotic abilities is nice. And the manufacturing complexity also trends inversely, in a fashion highly analogous to scaling through ever-better magic items.

>>96131611
I see vastly more bitching against than any sign of their presence.

>>96132514
File it with the Wizard's spellbook and reagents.

>>96131770
>Warhammer Fantasy
>Age of Sigmar
>Warcraft
same thing
>Ebberon
not popular
>Runeterra
nobody cares about the setting
>Exandria
>Golarion
what?

>>96132531
people still think fantasy when they see it. You can have a bunch of human footmen protecting dwarven riflemen and mortar teams gunning down undead in Lordaeron with no airship or space stuff in sight and it still works perfectly fine

>>96131126
Anon it's not like armor went out the moment guns were invented, they co-existed for centuries, cannons were used ALONGSIDE trebuchets and other artillery, in fact we still pretty much do the same shit the earlier gunpowder era were doing with metal helmets and metal chest protectors.

Also assuming it's a higher tier of fantasy, just.. oh i dont know enchant it so it does jack shit.

>>96132713
>Also assuming it's a higher tier of fantasy, just.. oh i dont know enchant it so it does jack shit.
Thicker armor shouldered through wondrous strength and fantastical but not technically magical materials are also fine.

>>96132679
>Exandria
Setting of the largest actual play on youtube and the largest Twitch channel, popular enough to gave birth to a publishing firm with novels, setting books, comic runs and 2 animated tv series

>Golarion
Setting of the largest DnD rival on the market

>>96132104
>it wouldn't be equalled by cartridge firearms for like 50 years.
first of all that's made up
second of all first cartridge firearms were black powder as well, retard
>educate yourself mutherfucker

>>96132104
>Black powder guns have insane muzzle energy and stopping power due to their large caliber,
oh yeah and they also bleed insane energy during flight because of their large caliber and round shape

>>96131453
balancing black powder muzzle loaded firearms is ezpz in fact that's how it was IRL
firearms didn't make melee weapons obsolete until repeating selfloading and fully-automatic firearms became a thing

>>96131114 (OP)
>it's ok to have wizards bascily be demi gods
Blame DMs who treat spellcasting as superhero powers and dont enforce components and casting time requirements

>>96132963
Firearms made melee weapons obsolete once the bayonet was invented.
Except for cavalry. It's way too difficult to reload a musket from horseback, and muskets are too heavy for a 1 handed spear/lance anyway.

>>96132963
And to a small degree bayonets advancing to replace the pike.

>>96131114 (OP)
Ah, I was wondering what happened to the faggot who spams the 'guns in fantasy' thread over and over. To be honest I was hoping you were dying of a flesh-eating disease.

how about gun mages?

>>96133540
What about them? The gun, in that case, is just another wand.

>>96133045
>bayonet
is a melee weapon you dingus >_<

>>96131114 (OP)
>scares fantasy to the fucking bones
>D&D has had everything from arquebus to literal alien laser guns since the fucking 1980s.

>>96133540
I for one support it

>>96133900
Somehow, Snake Plissken spectating this is the least weird part about it.

>>96133540
Baste and bakshipilled

>>96131114 (OP)
Why are you so fucking obsessed with
>Muh guns
>Muh wizardgods
Fuck off

>>96131114 (OP)
Now listen here, buddy. Round these here parts we like our women two ways
>tight and toned ninja girl in a skintight silk bodysuit that honorably serves her master she may or may not be crushing on, depending on whether she's crushing on her target or not
>tight and toned assassin girl in a skintight leather bikesuit with a nice deep zipper at the front who doesn't care what side she's on as long as she's getting paid and seems like a callous killer at first but actually operates on her personal code of conduct that boils down to "don't kill anyone who didn't have it coming"

The first requires no guns, the second requires modern guns, capisce? I don't want my ninja waifu getting shot by some Jules Brunet wannabe going
>'ow you say... don't bring an épée to a bataille des fusils...non?
After pulling an Indiana Jones. Either she brings a knife to a knife fight, or a gun to a gun fight.

THAT is why I don't want guns in my fantasy - and neither should you.

>>96131114 (OP)
So how does this effect bows? Your answer WILL impact my conclusion as a GM.

>>96131114 (OP)
Quite a lot of fantasy settings have guns.

>>96131114 (OP)
I miss times when those threads were merely flavour of the summer shitposting. Summer 2017 was truly the final, dying breath of /tg/. We've got local lord shitposts, Lindysperg shitposts, guns in fantasy shitposts and human townguard shitpost. All while builders got booted to /qst/ and /pol/ filled the void.

>>96131293
>Guns don't work in fantasy settings because gun fags are the biggest autists on Earth who demand a pepper box, pocket pistol fire a cannonball sized hole through a dragon's skull from 300 yards away and have infinite ammo or other dumb shit.
This isn't different from casterfags

>>96133682
It's an accessory that turns a ranged weapon into a melee weapon.

>>96134348
I kinda miss local lord shitposts. Atleast they took effort and were sometimes funny

>>96132565
D&D already has a mechanic it assigns to historical anti-armor weapons - an increased crit multiplier.

>>96131457
They were already in the 3.0 and 3.5 DMGs, but they were basically worse crossbows with even less support (when crossbows themselves had barely any use outside of a backup weapon for low-level spellcasters).

IIRC 3.x also started D&D confusing slings with slingshots and making them very weak but very easy to use, the opposite of how they worked historically (what guns were to bows, bows were to slings). Something to do with them mixing up the 2e stats for a war sling with the ones for a toy sling.

>>96131114 (OP)
Traditional games?

>>96132564
Honestly it was one of the better implementations. Just have the full party open with a salvo at the start of a fight for big damage and then put that shit away because you'll be in melee long before you reload and even as backline you have better things to do.

Problem with that is D&D and D&D-adjacent systems tie too much PC power to specific gearing options so if you're good at anything but shooting then you're probably not good enough at shooting to make turn 1 musket alpha strikes worth the opportunity cost.

>>96134013
that looks like the OG nick fury.

>>96131114 (OP)
I just saw yet another thread about how guns would totally pwn harry potter I'm sick of this shit. Will a glock return to you after expeliarmus? Will a colt help you see through invisibility? Will a sig-sauer negate horcruxes or cause 100% guaranteed insurmountable death like avada kedavra? Gun wankers have an undying hatred of all whimsy

>>96132672
>File it with the Wizard's spellbook and reagents.
The majority of wizard spells can be cast through an arcane focus, little nogames.
The only time you actually need reagants are for the ones that are consumed/cost gold.

>>96139248
>The majority of wizard spells can be cast through an arcane focus, little nogames.
Not before 4e, baby.

>>96132402
>>96132538

Also, there were conversions for Boot Hill, a western game with very similar rules to AD&D 1e, in the AD&D 1e DMG.

>>96131673
>60 feet
that's like 20 meters, right? That's like a lot compared to pistol range, right?