Thread 96180109

Are social skills the most prevalent trap option in all of TTRPGs? I mean is there anything more cucked than wasting precious chargen resources on the ability to bargain and compromise with useless ass NPCs? How about putting all those points into the ability to achieve whatever the fuck it is that you actually wanted the NPC to do for you? What could an NPC possibly offer you that you can't do yourself? And you will obviously do it better because NPCs are incompetent, retarded, and unreliable.

It's just such a fucking blatant scam and yet it's present in every single system.

>precious chargen resources
bruh

>>96180109 (OP)
>Born to shit
>Forced to live in a society
woah...

>>96180109 (OP)
Why are you playing in bad games with useless characters?

>>96180109 (OP)
I play uncucked games where Social skills have game mechanical benefits outside of having permission to talk to NPCs. Git gude.

>>96180109 (OP)
So this is that superior Japanese art style I've heard so much about...

>>96180109 (OP)
>kill monsters to get loot.
>Optimising social skills to get best price for loot so I can afford better gear to kill monsters.
It's the circle of life friend.

>>96181445
>>96181836
Doesn't change how much of a scam it is.

>>96180109 (OP)
If you had social skills you might be less of a faggot. Or not, it's a tough challenge in your case, but don't lose hope. Maybe run with what you do best and spec into blowjobs?

>>96181436
Name 5 games without social skills.

>>96182604
If you don't like what the NPCs are charging, why not use intimidation, or just steal what you need? A shop at night is just another dungeon and a crusty shopkeeper and his retarded assistants should be easier to burgle than the Dark Overlord's Fortress of Eternal Rape. If the DM insists every shopkeeper is tougher than your character, tell the DM to fuck his preplanned campaign and suggest he send a few of his superpowered shopkeepers at the Dark Lord's forces instead.

>>96183296
That's exactly what I'm saying. Get real skills instead of learning how to beg and grovel better.

>>96182604
If social skills do what they're supposed to do and what they're supposed to do is worthwhile, then obviously they're not a scam.

>>96183331
Circular logic.

>>96181482
OPM original webcomic vs. published manga is probably the ultimate sovl vs. sovlless example honestly. Webcomic looks like shit, is funny and full of heart. Manga (used to) looks amazing, is complete dogshit in every other way.

Oyvind Thorsby might be another good example. Comics look so fucking bad you feel you might get eye cancer just from reading them, makes incredibly high concept fantasy worlds that inevitably devolve into extremely funny farces.

>>96183343
No, it's not.

>>96183296
If you're at the point where you can't think of a better way to deal with a cheap salesman than falling back on petty thuggery, the problem might not be the social skills in the game

The uselessness of social skills is directly predicated on the fact most groups don't like doing stuff like >>96183296 since that risks becoming town pariahs and "consequences for [party member] is consequences for all of us, and consequences I didn't ask for are unfun". The DM, being in charge of the world and not directly a player, can only help you so much and you're fucked if he's a retard too. You might just have to talk to your group and be open about your feelings of uselessness - and if that fails, either accept that nogames is better than bad games or accept that your guys just don't have interest in social nuances and adjust.

>>96180109 (OP)
>What could an NPC possibly offer you that you can't do yourself?
Most games don't have item crafting rules at all. Even then, you're probably not going to stop the game for a few months to prospect for ore, mine the ore (manually, otherwise you'd involve NPCs), commit a bit of deforestation to acquire charcoal, and then finally smith a completely mundane sword that must then be enchanted. That's also at least 3 different specialized skills that are totally useless for whiteroom murderhoboing.

>>96180109 (OP)
Interesting image choice given that diplomancing Saitama is the most overpowered thing a character in that setting could do.

>>96183587
Because Saitama himself is such a socialite, right?

>>96183816
He is not, but he would be much better of if he were. Even if he spent some of his 'levels' on social stuff, he could still easily win in any combat encounter anyway. Transfer some 'stat points' in his weaknesses and he does not have to be a loser in his normal life.

>>96183847
No, he'd just be weaker.

>>96180109 (OP)
Why isn't making strong allies a valuable resource?

>>96183930
In the context of the OP post, it's the assumption that most NPC's AREN'T a valuable resource, that they're miles behind in competence compared to what a PC blessed with protagonist power and level ups can achieve by investing EXP. Or, in the case of actual powerful and competent NPCs, that their own initiative and agendas make them unreliable compared to just investing on your own PC who you fully control. This whole argument ultimately relies on bad GMing. or in the PC having uncontrollable murderhobo impulses and antisocial behavior that makes them find compromise and social conflict boring.

In the context of the OP pic, Dr. Bofoi is pretty much single-handedly carrying the hero association on his back. They rely on his technology and military might for everything, and in return give essentially nothing worth having except for endless red tape and blatant spying. Their only worthwhile asset, the top heroes, are infamous for completely ignoring orders at a whim, so spending half his awake hours spinning plates to please the paper pushers and the top brass wins him nothing and is just a waste of time. After that page he confesses that literally the only reason he helps them in the first place is philanthropy, and doesn't give a shit if everyone finds him shady and a villain in disguise for it.

Also something about time being his most precious resource at his age so fuck waiting for approval and whatever.

>>96183930
Only if it comes at the expense of your own strength.

>>96180109 (OP)
They exist so spergs like you can approximate the feeling of having a normal conversation with another person. Truly fantastical.

>>96180109 (OP)
Depends on the game. Face characters tend to be more useful in investigation games like CoC, intrigue games like Vampire, and to a lesser extent heist games like Cyberpunk or Shadowrun.

>>96182950
How about five games with social skills that don't suck?
>exalted 3e
>starforged
>dracorouge
>pendragon
>monsterhearts

>>96184851
>>96182950
...I read that wrong and am retarded, plz excuse

>>96183930
>>96184295
The funny thing is his complete lack of interest in social skills backfired horrifically in the most recent chapter since he wound up getting gutted by another character who was easily convinced that he was evil because of his suspiciousness

>>96184719
>Face characters tend to be more useful in investigation games like CoC, intrigue games like Vampire, and to a lesser extent heist games like Cyberpunk or Shadowrun.
They really don't though. Nobody ever says anything useful in these games, you have to go breaking and entering to get information worth getting.

>>96184987
That sounds like a you problem, frankly

>>96185041
Only nogames think otherwise.

>>96185534
I dunno, I find that not acting like an autistic antisocial loser kind of makes social skills function properly.

>>96185598
You should find some games instead.

>>96185603
Already did. I found that not playing D&D helps a lot in coming to appreciate how useful social skills are in a game. You should try it sometime.

>>96185698
No, you didn't. And it's obvious to anyone who's played.

>>96185708
Can you prove your assertion?

>>96180109 (OP)
Actually combat skills are the true trap option.

There is nothing you can do if 2 niggas as skilled as you decide to kill you. Your demise is basically inevitable if you tread this path.

>>96180109 (OP)
>Precious Charagen resources
Wot? Almost every game has you putting combat and non-combat skills in separately. If I'm a sorcerer in DnD I have high Charisma because that's my casting stat, it literally costs me nothing to put points in talking skills. I'm not taking away from any combat capability to do so.

>>96187533
L5R, where it's designed to prevent munchkin builds and promote group interdependence but in practice means everyone plays either a violent, retarded autist or a hemophiliac diplomancer with brittle bones, and praying encounters involve the correct characters.

>>96185715
Can you prove yours?

>>96188415
I accept your concession

So what are the game design options?
Freeform. Your social skills are your PCs social skills.
Character creation. Choose positive and maybe negative social traits at character creation or choose a personality Pack of traits.
Feats. A variety of Feats are available that grant a static bonus of sorts, signifying a specialization in that social skills. Can be purchased over time.
Skills. Talking becomes skill checks.
Skills plus feats. Not only is talking a series of skill checks, very spefific uses are consideree off limits without a special feats.

Did I miss anything?
Levels.

>>96188540
There’s the classic ‘you can make a check to get info that may or may not help you convince the NPC but the convincing has to happen as roleplayed conversation’.

>>96184987
>Nobody ever says anything useful in these games
Horseshit.

>>96187533
>Almost every game
>names only DnD
retard

>>96187859

God, I have so many memories of awkward L5R campaigns.

You'd always have a few people who were really into the setting and politics. But at least one guy who'd prefer playing DnD and they would always beeline for the same shit(Tsuruchi archer, Mirumoto bushi, etc) and load up on social disadvantages thinking that would steer the campaign towards more battles. And if they were really retarded they'd make a ronin thinking that would get them out of politics entirely and they'd be an anime badass when in fact they were really gimped in combat and treated like the homeless mercenaries they were.

>>96187510
Very wise.

>>96180109 (OP)
>they called it useless, but talk-no-jutsu is actually overpowered in another world

I know this is bait, but oh man, you just need a DM who appreciates rp.

The gnome in our party disguised themselves as a contract devil and schmoozed, lied and sweet talked their way through a horde of devils and convinced them to just leave the dungeon. We opened the gate, informed them of their superiors wrong doing (keeping them their last the expiration of their contract date with the bbeg to hunt down a soul he was tasked with claiming)

It was brilliant, totally bypassed like, seven or eight encounters with a two sessions of rp and everyone had a blast supporting her gambit.

>>96193741
I don't need to waste my character's shit on social skills to RP.

>>96189690
Okay you want non DnD examples?
>VtM - Even if you pick Specialist there's not enough combat only skills and disciplines can often make up the difference where you're weak
>Traveller - No combat specific skills that would take away from your ability to fight. You could be an Agent or Army character with decent social skills and still be effective
>CoC - You get plenty of skills from your Occupation and extras from Int to round your character out. It's also CoC, the game that probably gets the absolute most out of non combat skills.
There's plenty of non-DnD examples. Hell the only one that sticks out in my mind as objectively true for OP would be L5R.

>>96193843
all of those use the same experience pool for combat and non-combat skills

are you fucking retarded?

>>96180109 (OP)
>How about putting all those points into the ability to achieve whatever the fuck it is that you actually wanted the NPC to do for you
I actually already have a guy I convince to go in to danger for me, his name is (you).

>>96194056
You didn't convince me of anything, I just wanted to play the game.

>>96180109 (OP)
>>96194385
It's weird that you are so obviously nogames, then.

If you actually played like this (kill every shopkeeper, etc, until you get what you want), the GM would stop running for you because you're making the game unfun for him. It's literally murderhobo behavior.

>>96196855
>if you actually played like this ([shit no one said])

>>96196867
>shit no one said

What's this, anon?
>>96183296
>If you don't like what the NPCs are charging, why not use intimidation, or just steal what you need? A shop at night is just another dungeon and a crusty shopkeeper and his retarded assistants should be easier to burgle than the Dark Overlord's Fortress of Eternal Rape. If the DM insists every shopkeeper is tougher than your character, tell the DM to fuck his preplanned campaign and suggest he send a few of his superpowered shopkeepers at the Dark Lord's forces instead.

>>96196879
>confirms it was in fact shit no one has ever said
>still acts confused

>>96196892
Okay, so you are just a troll trying to use autism to keep his bait fresh. Glad you are nogames too. I hope you seethe that all your DMs kick you out for being a disrputive retard.

>>96196896
cease your hysterics, faggot

>>96196896
Helps that his proclamations emulate a lot of That Guys who only play D&D and treat social skills are either a "get out of jail free" card or useless because it doesn't let them brainwash people.

>>96196896
But no one said anything about killing in your quote?

>>96180109 (OP)
The most powerful people in our world don't have any skills at all.

>>96188540
Combat-related skills and abilities completely separated from non-combat skills and abilities.

>>96204235
>he thinks Xi Jinping never had to manage anyone or organise anything or make snap decisions or weigh risks or discern intent
You've probably never been in charge of anything bigger than a ten-year-old's lemonade stand.

>>96204783
Yeah, he didn't. Don't even try to cope.

>>96180109 (OP)
Anon, social skills are the most powerful abilities in most games.
Sure you can be the top scientist, fighter, or superhuman in the world, but the richest or most politically connected guy in the world has 12 of those fuckers on his payroll.

>>96205103
Most politicians are boring as fuck. They don't have social skills.

>>96205120
Who do you think writes their speeches, anon?

>>96180109 (OP)
>make powerful combat character
>but since you have weak social skills everyone treats you like a ridiculous sissy bitch
>unarmed npcs with high charisma just initiate social combat every time you get uppity and tell you to get lost, and you comply, running away whimpering every time
>social-maxxed party member is essentially the only player at the table, constantly ordering everyone around

>>96205129
Their staff and/or professional speechwriters. Duh.

>>96205687
And if said staff were roleplaying game characters, what kind of skills do you think they would have specialized in?

>>96205702
Did you already forget the post you made like an hour ago?

>>96205702
But you were talking about the politicians and moguls themselves, many if not most of whom gain their power through connections and pre-existing wealth rather than direct social skills.

>>96205734
>>96205965
I was talking about the speechwriters said uncharismatic boorish politicians hire, I got no clue who you think I am

>>96206208
Are you retarded?

>>96206220
That seems incredibly rude to say

>>96184934
Fighting skills would have served him better here.

>>96209702
They really wouldn't have

>>96183296
Because what's going to happen is that the robbed shopkeep is going to use his connections to someone else to someone else, until someone more powerful than you comes up and kills you.

>inb4 y r they not fighting the dark lord
Because they were busy dealing with another threat on the other side of the world, but because it's a favor to a friend, they can find the time to stomp your ass flat.

Your character is dead. Hand in your character sheet and I think you should leave my house, since you are no longer welcome to interact with us.

>>96210036
>but because it's a favor to a friend
Why isn't offing the Dark Lord a favor to a friend?

>>96209983
Yes, they would.

>>96210036
They didn't use social skills to kill me so you continue to prove just how useless those things are.

>>96194385
>I was going to do that anyway
Too easy.

>>96211617
>guy is breathing
>tell him he should keep breathing
>tells me he was going to do that anyways
>"A-HA!"
Turns out OP really hit the nail on the head.

>>96180109 (OP)
Why do you want this to be true?

>>96212284
It's true whether I want it or not.

>>96213891
Can you prove it?

>>96180109 (OP)
Some people get really sassy when you point out that their character is a useless leech.

>>96187510
>social skills are bad
>combat skills are bad
so what the fuck do I get then

>>96180109 (OP)
>mean is there anything more cucked than wasting precious chargen resources on the ability to bargain and compromise with useless ass NPCs?
How useful social skills are depends on how serious the fail states are and how likely they are to matter vs other fail states (combat being the other big one, but also other stuff like preparation or avoiding bad RNG or exploration etc)

in a game like VTM, the fail state of a social situation can literally be a straight up TPK, and while combat is deadly it's also common to go weeks at a time without any major battles, against regular mortals powers like dominate simply work and the difficulty is in cleaning up after yourself and not breaching the masquerade, not the actual violence and feeding itself. So investing in social skills is important and non-combat resources like a pimped out Haven and plenty of money and connections matter.

In a game like Pathfinder 2e everyone in the party can be a dullard with no charisma because the only thing that matters is Encounter Mode and non-combat situations are basically just a JRPG world map, diplomacy and intimidate are buttons you press in combat to inflict a minor debuff and occasionally might get you a slightly more favorable outcome in interactions with NPCs between encounters, but they won't ever be the reason you TPK the same way dumping combat capabilities or your saving throws will be

>>96182604
>Doesn't change how much of a scam it is
Literally some of the best Power Points you can ever spend in Mutants and Masterminds is in buying social advantages.
>Wealth 5: five points to be a billionaire with all that entails. You're Bruce Wayne or Tony Stark, you've got employees and subsidiaries you don't even know about, a problem that can be solved with money isn't a problem.
>Well-Informed: one point so that upon first learning of a person or group you can immediately make a persuasion check to see if you've already heard about them and what their deal is
>Very Attractive: 2 points for a +5 circumstance bonus (meaning it stacks with other stuff and allows you to punch above your normal level limits) on deception and persuasion checks against anyone who find your looks appealing (this includes even people not literally sexually attracted to you, since even women like Wonder Woman and even guys look up to Superman)
>Inspire, five points to be able to use your turn giving an inspirational hero speech that buffs everyone around you by a ridiculous amount until the start of your next turn)

>>96228296
>Wealth
Not social skills.
>Well-Informed
Use knowledge skills or just discover the information manually with other, more useful skills.
>Very Attractive: 2 points for a +5 circumstance bonus on useless shit
Incredible.
>Inspire
Not social skills.

>>96228316
Sorry anon, wealth and inspiration buffs do count as social in context to ttrpgs

>>96228340
No, they don't. But it is funny to see you try to drag unrelated shit under that umbrella because you really have nothing else.

>>96228194
Get the "not believing everything you hear on 4chan" and realize that both spcial skills and combat skills can be very useful, and how useful they are depends on the game and campaign.

>>96183930
>Why isn't making strong allies a valuable resource?
In a game that is Combat As War it IS a strong resource and being able to call on other people to do your fighting for you is extremely valuable.
If the game is Combat As Sport and the GM is obsessed with "encounter balance" and "fair" fighting then it's useless because no matter how much effort you put in getting allies, or how reasonable it is that X/Y/Z should help you, it won't actually matter in combat because it would be "unbalanced" or "unfair" to call in the cavalry and trivialize the planned encounters or big boss fight. At best they might give you a token benefit while the fuck machine you enlisted the help of is fighting """"off-screen"""" or even worse the GM simply rubber-band-difficulty's you and adds in extra enemies whose sole job is to nullify the addition of the allies you added.


Personally, I can't fucking stand combat as sport shit and if we work our asses off to call in the cavalry or make it unfair for the enemies I WANT to see them get curb stomped like Aragorn summoning the Dead Men of Dunharrow or John Constantine calling in a debt with Lucifer to curb stomp a rogue Gabriel trying to birth the antichrist. Or manipulating events to drop fucking Adam Smasher onto your enemies in a Cyberpunk game. If the logical outcome of a scenario the PCs have worked to achieve is that the bad guys get fucking demolished like a toddler struck by a semi-truck, then let it happen instead of bitching and moaning about how it "killed the hype" or "ruined the adventure". Calling in an AC-130 to blow up Somalian pirates with hand me down Soviet AK-47's is also unfair, that's life.

>>96228354
Affluence leads to influence if used correctly, especially when it comes to having more bodies on the ground. And the ability to not sound like a mumbling basement dweller is pretty important when getting people to commit to doing their best. But I guess you'd know that if you actually played games instead of saying stupid shit online.

>>96228384
Wealth has nothing to do with social skills.

>>96228426
Whatever you say, nogaems

>>96228316
Saying that Batman's Bruce Wayne billionaire persona doesn't count as a social benefit is kind of silly and is clearly splitting hairs about definitions, especially in the context of roleplaying game situations which are largely defined as being either combat vs noncombat, and noncombat being largely social situations or overcoming obstacles of some kind (whether that be literal exploration and pathfinding, or flying a space ship through a dangerous area, or just crossing a big river depending on how extreme)

Having employees and being an employer is inherently social as well. Bribes are social interactions. Paying to clean up the damage caused by your superhero battles and avoid public outrage is a social benefit. Recruiting former villains to switch sides because you have better health insurance is a social situation. Sitting on a giant pile of gold like scrooge mcduck buying everything you could ever want off Amazon isn't social, but that's hardly the only thing that you can do with Wealth 5 especially in a superhero game where the entire point is that being a billionaire is tied to your identity the same way Tony Stark, Bruce Wayne, or Danny Rand being wealthy is.

>>96228456
It doesn't count because a person with no social skills, or any skills at all, can be wealthy, and still get full benefits from it.
>Having employees and being an employer is inherently social as well. Bribes are social interactions. Paying to clean up the damage caused by your superhero battles and avoid public outrage is a social benefit. Recruiting former villains to switch sides because you have better health insurance is a social situation.
Nope. It's just money.

You're struggling to give that category anything useful and it's really showing.

>>96228570
>It doesn't count because a person with no social skills, or any skills at all, can be wealthy, and still get full benefits from it.
Not what a benefit like Wealthy is about. It's about the ability to have wealth as well as the mental and social acumen to retain it on a day-to-day basis. Anyone can win the lottery, but most people will have so little self-control they immediately spend it all on useless shit or be so socially inept they get conned out of it. That and most games that give such a benefit will point out that it can be revoked if you act like a dumbass or alienate enough people with social incompetence that your source of income dries up.

>You're struggling to give that category anything useful and it's really showing.
He gave several useful points. You rejecting them doesn't make them invalid, it just means you're too stubborn and unwilling to admit you're limited in scope.

>>96228661
One last time: wealth has nothing to do with social skills.
>He
Don't pretend to be other people.

It's especially funny that you tried to use "employment" as an example of social skills when most people would punch their bosses in the mouth if it weren't for the fact that they were paying them. You're stupid.

>>96228675
It does in tabletop games, anon. That's the key. Considering how much focus is usually given to games on their combat, affluence is lumped into the influence aspect, which makes it an aspect of social skills.

>but what about [insert rich fuck's name]
Good thing that ain't what we're talking about, loser.

>>96228691
It doesn't in tabletop games either. You pay money, you get service. You have money, rich people hang out with you. This works both ways, PC to NPC and vice versa.

>>96228712
Only if someone doesn't know how to actually leverage their wealth in useful ways like you, maybe

>>96228358
Social skills aren't useful though, and this doesn't depend on campaign.

>Social skills aren't useful though
This statement right here should be proof enough for everyone that this is a shitpost thread, likely a content farming thread to boot, and you lot need to stop posting in it.
Imagine putting forward such absolutes in a hobby based on creativity.

>>96234878
Paranoid schizophrenic post.

>>96234958
>moid buzzwords

Skill and ability tier list
>Movement
>Perception
>Stealth & miscellaneous breaking and entering
>Durability & Evasion
>Healing
>Crafting
>Offense
>Lore
>[POWER GAP]
>Social

>>96241106
D&D player mindset

>>96180109 (OP)
The usefulness of character options is 100% dependent on the GM. Play with GMs interested in using social mechanics, and they're useful.

>>96241144
The D&D player's tier list looks something like this
>Offense
>...
>All the other shit that isn't offense, who cares, I'm just here to kill the monster

>>96184934
In a TTRPG context he would have to sacrifice most of his science skills for social skills to get around this. He would be useless.

>>96241394
No. Basketweaving won't be useful no matter the context. Even in a campaign dedicated to the basket weaving business other skills will be more important.

>They keep feeding the troll.
/tg/ deserves what's happened to this board.

>>96255949
>this guy is still having his schizo melty in the background

>>96180109 (OP)
If a skill can't get you lots of money then it's a trap option.

>>96255567
imagine living in a primitive world with not many advanced crafts where "basket weaving" can be used for baskets (doh), boats (coracles), house wands (wattle and daub) and doors, and the bigger version, fortifications (earthwork rampart stabilized with wicker works or baskets filled with earth, still used in the middle ages), furniture, bed bases, beehives, fish traps, wicker shields, and so on. If you include straw instead of just wicker you could do even more.
>I'll just buy the things that I need
Okay, one basket is one rabbit, or something that you can BARTER of equal value.

>>96264781
that's not how basketweaving works in any game

Social skills have always been incredibly strong in any game I play. If you can sneak, you can get yourself in somewhere without notice, but if you can use social skills, suddenly you can get your whole team in. Having social skills just produces money on the side as you give people dubious goods and services. From cyberpunk to D&D, just being good at talking bypasses and solves so many issues that I feel bad about using it.

Especially if you start getting such a heavy bonus that you can get people to start believing ridiculous lies.

>>96180109 (OP)
I love seeing wanpanCHADS around the chan.
I also think Charisma is important for the storytelling aspect. Every group has their "face" et cetera.

I was also thinking about how players take certain skills like investigation, athletics etc even though we wouldn't want a GM to lock us out of the adventure because we missed a clue or couldn't climb up to the cave in the mountain. Social skills are the same way, it seems unreasonable to make the whole session contingent upon getting an uncooperative NPC to talk.

I suppose you could argue the same thing about combat. Even as you get stronger weapons and abilities the GM will throw in harder encounters to make sure there's enough of a challenge that the players barely skate by. It's all going to be tailored to the party because it's about putting on a performance and telling a story together.

It's annoying when everyone wants to make a combat monster but it's also annoying to have a player who thinks social skills are mind control or who wants to slow down a game to befriend some chaff combat encounter instead of letting the rest of group roast them and move on.

>>96277777
Just because, theoretically, the GM will "tailor" challenges to the players, that still does not make all skills and abilities equal. Certain capabilities are much more challenging to "challenge" in a reasonable fashion, especially when spontaneity is required, which it almost always is due to the way the medium works.