Thread 96259058

>What is Exalted?
An epic high-flying role-playing game about reborn god-heroes in a world that turned on them.
Start here:http://theonyxpath.com/category/worlds/exalted/

>That sounds cool, how can I get into it?
Read the 3e core book (link below). For mechanics of the old edition, play this tutorial:http://mengtzu.github.io/exalted/sakuya.html
It’ll get you familiar with most of the mechanics.

>Gosh that was fun. How do I find a group?
Roll20 and the Game Finder General here on /tg/. good luck

>Resources for Third Edition
>3E Core and Splats
https://www.mediafire.com/folder/b54o6teut3fx6/Exalted_3e

>Errata for Third Edition
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1n3ooTmopm3CBxW5jwPp1761xsaIccea-5XIhVM_PQEc/edit

>Other Ex3 Resources
https://pastebin.com/fG1mLMdu (embed)

>Resources for Older Editions
https://pastebin.com/BXSGuFdQ (embed)

>Current Quixalted Extended QE Version (Fanmade Supplement)
https://files.catbox.moe/rjgmo5.pdf

>Optional Quixalted Exalts
https://www.mediafire.com/file/jg86yrewnhx2ov3/QE_Reject3eExaltHomebrew.pdf/file

>Exalted Demake/Black Vault (Now with updates):
https://pastebin.com/Tt1PjuYt (embed)
https://pastebin.com/qHRW9N51 (embed)

>collection of Exalted Hacks
https://pastebin.com/gtZnycJs (embed)

>stuff that might be interesting
https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/the-exalted-thread-with-no-original-ideas.317216/

Last thread: >>96228572

TQ: How prominently do manses feature in your campaigns? How often do your characters seek out and use hearthstones?

Talking about about manses, can somebody explain to me about "ninja interior decoration" to me? I saw this term thrown around a few times.

T. Newfag.

>>96259058 (OP)
Completely forgot about them. Along with Invocations and at one point Sorcery. By that latter point I mean no player was interested in Sorcery; Knew it existed and that the City was using it, but didn't want to touch it. If they couldn't strongarm or sweettalk it they didn't want to know about it.

>>96259058 (OP)
Okay. Now. In my Creation Sidereals and Lunars don't exist. Only Solars who ran amok and raped and went insane after they deposed the True Gods. And Infernals who arose after the Yozi gathered enough of themselves together to consider bucking against their oaths. Dragonblooded are simply Mortal Heros who can respire Essence into one of the five elements. Corrective breeding a la Bene Gesserit has created genetic lines AKA Families, that can channel Essence stronger and learned techniques that they hide from outsiders.

So it's
>Solars: Divinely ordained super-heroes condemned to ruin whatever great works they wrought.
>Infernals: Mortal vessels into which the hopes and Essence of crippled Gods are poured.
>Dragonbloods: Strong Men who are brought from birth to understand that mortals only let them rule because they cannot, or do not, oppose them.

>>96259314
Since Infernals are made of corrupted Solar Exaltations, could a current Solar find an Infernal that was made from the Spark of her wife in the First Age?

A couple of Martial Arts previews are out for Agents of Heaven, the upcoming Sidereals companion book. The previews are here https://theonyxpath.com/agents-of-heaven-preview-1-the-even-blade/ and here https://theonyxpath.com/agents-of-heaven-preview-2-the-flying-guillotine-and-cerulean-lute-of-harmony-style/. Just thought to point those out in case someone here cares.

>>96259491
...yeah? And Lunar mates work for them as well. Same with Abyssal's.

>>96259314
why not just make your own thing at this point. All your doing is reusing names for no reason.

>>96259772
I am making Exalted
>B E T E ER
Like everyone else thinks they are doing rewriting Exalted Core from scratch.

https://theonyxpath.com/agents-of-heaven-preview-2-the-flying-guillotine-and-cerulean-lute-of-harmony-style/

New Martial Arts Techniques

>>96260375
>Artifact umbrellas are called razor parasols, and deal Lethal damage.
Ahhhh. I'll accept this. Time to stat up the 5-page long Invocation tree for my Artifact Parasol; Sol's Orichalcum Downpour.

>>96259314
Eh you do you. I just think using this angle would probably be a net negative.

>>96260388
Didn't we already have a razor parasol in Arms of the Chosen called Rainwalker?

>>96260335
>Like everyone else thinks they are doing rewriting Exalted Core from scratch.
KeK, just use the version you actually find playable. Hell use GURPS if you must.

>>96259314
>Okay. Now. In my Creation Sidereals and Lunars don't exist
Why Sidereals in particular? Because of the power/scry creep?

He gets dropped into the First Age. What happens next?

>>96260552
Immediately returned to his station in the Bureau of Destiny.

>>96260512
Imagine if the Games of Divinity didn't exist and the Sun and the rest of the Gods were undistracted and free to walk amongst Creation. Every single plot-line you make would have to answer
>But why can't [GODNAMEHERE] do something about it?
and you can't say they're shut up in their collective gamer-den as an end-all answer; Which itself is deeply unsatisfying.
Everytime something comes up tangentially touching Sid-shit there's always the question of "Why doesn't the all-perfect, all-knowing Sidereals do something about it?" And unless you want to spend the time and energy answering that you'll use the lowest-energy answer,
>All according to keikaku
I'll carve out their bones and use them as one-off Antagonists distorting Creation itself to fuck over the players, but fuck these things and the answers their existence demands.


It's my preference for why I like the Yozi so much. All-encompassing power without (near-)restraint. They have power to play with but a non-bullshit answer baked in for why they can't be the answer to all questions.

>>96260503
I probably need to step back at this point and rethink what the hell I actually want. Might also be confusing homebrew w/ canon again. I'll hold off on this entirely until I've got a firm grasp on my Infernal-as-Core-Exalted concept.

>>96260620
Understandable take on the Sids.

>>96260620
I think you can just rewind their lore and charmset to 1e, and remove SMAs.

>>96260830
My main gripe with the Sids will always be how they were the invisible hand behind the end of the First Age and the creation of the current Age. I'd either have to overcome by hatred of the very concept of an invisible hand behind the history of the world, unlikely, or expand the two factions into balkanized truces, oaths, counter-oaths, and convolouted plans that keep them out of the story.
Sids should never have been statted or allowed to be playable.

And fuck the Great Prophecy. Takes the choice out of their hands and throws it into a "But it was the best of all possible worlds. We had no choice!"

I think I'm intractable in my hatred for the Sidereals and end up coming back round to the same hatreds. But you can keep trying to convince me if you need a wall to throw things at.

You do know that sidereals are massively overworked and often make plenty of mistakes and have spies in their midst, right? And that the Bronze faction is heavily, heavily suggested as being in the wrong? I suppose their could be more rules for how to handle them as antagonists but I don't there is a list you can point to that tells you where all that sort of information is.

SMA's are broken though but that's been known for, what, 12 years now? Longer? Although for the life of me I don't think I've ever seen anyone explain how besides "Obsidian mirror is le broken."

>>96260949
Ah, so your head canon for what sidereals are differs so much from what they actually are in the lore that nothing can really make you like the splat. That's certainly a take. In 2e they are stretched thin af and the Bronze Faction is heavily implied to have done irreversible damage what with locking up the Solars.

Also pretty sure the Great Contagion wouldn't have happened if the Solars were still around, but that might be head canon.

>>96260978
>>96260957
>Different mental models of Sids
I think thats the basis of our differences, yeah. If I re-read the Sid splats after, I think, 10+ years I'd probably be kinder to them. Still hate them on the basis that as PCs they can fuck with the future for their personal benefits. Too much power for players that I think should be reserved for NPCs.

>>96260949
>"But it was the best of all possible worlds. We had no choice!"
They had, they let the situation get to that point.

>>96260978
>Also pretty sure the Great Contagion wouldn't have happened if the Solars were still around, but that might be head canon.
They have charms to hard counter it but I doubt that would get that if they didn't got stuck in the shadow realm until it was irrelevant.
On top of that The Great Contagion and Balloran Crusades wouldn't happen with the Solars around because their dead caused those events in the first place.

>>96261010
It's not like they couldn't set up an internation a few centuries earlier but they didn't do shit until they thought they were in the blast radius.

>>96261018
Yes, they didn't try to stop it when the cracks started appearing, only when they themselves were on the line that they did something

People in power would never let horrible travesty after horrible travesty happen just because stopping it would be hard work. Imagine not helping people just because it might put you in the crossfire. God damn fantasy games.

>>96261028
To be fair it took a while for them to understand that you should stop your boss/buddy from ripping holes into reality causing billions of deaths in the process to redecorate. At that point I don't think the Solars who did that kind of shit would have given enough of a shit to back down.

>>96261040
It's not that it is unrealistic by any means, it's just that some people expected more from the people who are most likely to have 5 in every virtue.

>>96260957

Honestly the 3e SMAs are pretty reasonable high essence combat suites, albeit good ones. The Visions of Gold/Bronze don't actually exist in 3e, there was no capital G Great Prophecy. The almost universally applicable reason for why Sids aren't bothering your E1 Solar party is "there are less than a hundred Sids, they are all very busy with both their work and their politics and they don't have a panopticon". Even if they did have one, they don't have the ability to look through the fourth wall and detect that your party, as distinct from the hundreds or thousands of other powerful beings fucking around, are the Important PCs who they need to dispatch the memetic teacup ninjas to deal with immediately.

The 2e SMAs besides Sapphire Veil are horrifically badly written, though - scenelong perfect defences, attacks that either stunlock the enemy or break perfects, various things that are literally unplayable as written for various reasons, a button that literally makes you untargetable for however long you like, an automatic win fight button and a selection of cool, expensive and totally useless effects because Shaping in 2e does nothing to any target who matters. Even if they weren't overpowered, they would not be playable as written or fun to play if fixed.

>>96259058 (OP)
>some self-effacing guy moved all these links back out of the collection of hacks
post on a forum somewhere, hacks

Talking about hacks/homebrew, any update from Holden?

>>96261235
Guy died in a car crash a couple months ago.

>>96260375
Already posted >>96259504

Reharding the discussion both in the last thread and this one, I think it's bizarre how many suggestions for 'fixing' either Exalted as a whole or some specific splat seem to start from "I hate the very core concept of this thing, fuck the people who like it, fuck focusing on something I like, let's change it completely". I'm talking about things like someone last thread suggesting that Solar's fairly straightforwards themes of excellence are a problem to be fixed, or >>96259314, or a good chunk of Lunars-related discussion. Is it too much to ask that a grown-up should be able to understand that things other people seem to like but he doesn't might just not be to his taste rather than being bad, wrong and in need of fixing? Aren't there enough examples from a variety of different media for us to know that changing things in way that pisses off fans in an attempt to appeal to people who definitely aren't fans is a bad idea?

>>96261747
I don't get where this idea that solars are only "excellent". With sorcery you can shoot laser beams and summon lava tentacles, you have light sabers and lasers, you have giant robots and the ability to copy charms from other splats, you can throw a single spear and have it turn into 1000 spears to hit a whole army. You can literally find food where none exists.

People just make stuff up. Solars are incredibly magical. Hell, with the right charms you can even get access to the permanent charms that the Yozi have. There are so many options, not even counting what you can pull off with homebrew solar charms.

>>96261804
Probably because sorcery is a bunch of stand-alone spells each with their own theme but Solar Charms aren't and don't tap into sorcery for them, even considering that Solars are typically the only Exalted with Adamant Sorcery.

(At least until the Infernals round the bend again)

I've not seen this argument from sorcery for a while, but it was really tiresome back in the day and digging it back up doesn't make it suddenly fresh. Fortuitous, though, given what drops tomorrow on DTRPG.

>>96259115
I haven't heard it used recently but if I recall correctly it's mostly referring to the several ways in 2e people can disguise themselves as furniture. This includes things like Fivefold Shadowhand Style's The Cat Disguise (notable for being in the lowest rung of martial arts and thus available to everybody, even mortal assassins), the resplendency power Everywhere and Nowhere Technique (notable because it requires almost zero investment from a Sidereal to access, which is also where 'seventy Sidereals hiding in a teacup' comes from), the terrestrial circle spell Mirror of Bending Light (lowest rung, again theoretically available to anyone), or the Sidereal default penalty reduction on disguise actions letting them disguise themselves as interior decoration as easily as they can people (and Sidereals are typically also considered ninja by default).

>>96261167
>post on a forum somewhere, hacks
It's not all the links, it's only the ones people were using. They aren't moved out, they're just in the threadhead too. Don't pretend there isn't space.

>>96261747
>I think it's bizarre how many suggestions for 'fixing' either Exalted as a whole or some specific splat seem to start from "I hate the very core concept of this thing, fuck the people who like it, fuck focusing on something I like,
Even the devs did this, for example see what happened to magitec or thaumaturgy in 3e.

>Solar themes.
They were never just the "super X" splat, but the existence of this soft rule screwed them.

>Lunars.
1e Lunars were rotten to their core, the devs never admitted it, they always give out excuses.

>>96261804
The "solars are not outright supernatural" rule is like a Schrodinger cat, but it seems to exist to shut the fans.

For example, one 3e backer, used his fan slot to ask for a sorcery booster, Morke hated the idea, and made a general occult boost instead.

>>96261747
>Is it too much to ask that a grown-up should be able to understand that things other people seem to like but he doesn't might just not be to his taste rather than being bad, wrong and in need of fixing?
Yes it is too high of a bar for 4chan. I am very much guilty of this type of shit.
I have a hard time "buying" a lot of ideas necessary for something to work mostly because I don't like the attached lore enough to let it be, let alone trying to have a reasonable answer for a "How would you improve this?" kind of question.

>>96263162
>Yes it is too high of a bar for 4chan. I am very much guilty of this type of shit.
At least we didn't remove the wyld and rubber man charms from Lunars...

>>96263156
>They were never just the "super X" splat, but the existence of this soft rule screwed them.
The thing is that they mostly come across as the super splat that almost everyone else had to one up within a smaller theme.

>>96263208
Actually it was the other way around, since the other splats could also do superhuman feats, which led to the "Solars are overpowered and boring" sentiment.

>>96263277
Odds are the writers ran out of ideas on how to make skill based powers without overlapping with other splats. It doesn't help that two of the canon Exalts are just corrupted Solars with a different coat of paint.

>>96262320
space that might eventually be useful for not detailing one of the 10 fan attempts at reinventing the wheel. they should be in the hack collection and remain there because that's what they are

>>96263180
As always, things could be worse.

>>96263455
The writers are self inflicting problems.

There is a finite amount of "super human things", so the Charm set ends up bloated with redundancy boosts, and once they run out, they do outright supernatural charms that feel random because of the lack of vision of what an outright supernatural Solar charm is.

The other splats also have superhuman charms plus they inhuman stuff, so the Solars look worse by comparison.

>doesn't help that two of the canon Exalts are just corrupted Solars with a different coat of paint.
2e!Infernals didn't have this problem, but the devs decided to turn them into Solar carbon copies, and introduced Exigents that are effectively new varieties of Solars.

>Abyssals.
They form a vicious circle, since they are defined as more supernatural Solars and as Solars but evil/black.
Making Solars in turn be less supernatural versions of themselves.

>>96263570
Considering that it's literally only Demake there, which is a full system rewrite and thus definitionally not a hack, I think you're just wrong. It's also written by Holden, so 'fan attempt' is a bit of a misdescription too. Beyond that, what does their status as non-canon or homebrew have to do with anything? The thread header is just supposed to have stuff that'd be helpful, especially for people getting into the fandom. Demake is the newest full system rewrite. I should honestly have put QE there too but I don't play it so I hadn't realised you were enough of an asshat to remove it until just now.

You are the one asshole, just so that you're aware.

>>96263609
>Charm set ends up bloated with redundancy boosts
That's mainly because one of the main way to balance Charms is to make 3 or 4, mostly useless prerequisite charms instead of compacting them into something you upgrade.
In my opinion, the tree approach to power design is one of the bigger problems with this game.

Anons, a question:
The devs keep making hearteaters out to be an NPC splat because it's too evil. A bunch of the discussion about them online seems to mirror this.
I've skimmed their writeup, and it has a whole bit about how hearteaters can try and pretend they aren't evil monsters, that's just a lie they're telling themselves.
Yet, it doesn't seem like that's actually supported by the rules? They have their whole faggy "need to be loved and paid attention to" thing, and they have some charms that reward them for harming their pawns, but overall it seems pretty optional to actually do harm, and like you absolutely could run a hearteater that just accumulates followers and empowers them as a group to accomplish things, and while there's a more mind-controlly flavor to it it doesn't really seem all that different from a zenith doing the same thing through high attractiveness and presence.
Am I missing something, or is "hearteaters are inherently horrible" a meme because the devs are worried about someone calling them problematic?

>>96263609
>There is a finite amount of "super human things"
While you're technically correct, they have never found the limit to the number of super human things that could be available. There is an absurd, ridiculous well of still untapped potential within that space. The real limit is on the developer's creativity and the writer's ability, not on the theoretical space within the field of activities humans can get up to.

You built your argument on this premise, but it's a bad premise, so reconsider the argument.

>>96264040
>Am I missing something, or is "hearteaters are inherently horrible" a meme because the devs are worried about someone calling them problematic?
Yes, and if you read closely, Hearteaters committed the two biggest sins in the devs eyes.

Their powers take away agency from npcs and put it firmly in the hands on the PC, which is a no-no in a White Wolf game.

Two: they and their players are too sincere about themselves, as seen with the Baali, in a White Wolf game you may rape, commit all kinds of natural and supernatural mental abuse, eat babies, sell the soul of innocents to demons, etc... as long that you are doing it ironically or a weird form of dark enlightenment; but in the moment that the "it is unjustifiable" thought comes up, White Wolf and certain fan will act like a Sidereal using "end debate".
An exalted related example are the nature of Getimians gaslighting, their fans wanted the devs to put more sidebars enforcing the views that what they do is complete justified.

>>96264225
Morality meters as a game mechanic were a mistake.

>>96264300
Yes, my high school friend laughed at the idea of masquerade vampires having it.

>Why would vampires have it?

And white wolf itself had to introduce fixes to it.

>>96264335
I mean, in Vampire's case it's pretty obvious why vampires have it, and it's pretty central to the game's theme.

>>96264335
>Why would vampires have it?
It measured how much you were channeling the Beast, rather than your fading human mentality.

>>96264040
>Am I missing something, or is "hearteaters are inherently horrible" a meme because the devs are worried about someone calling them problematic?
The one and only fundamental reason they don't want to try making hearteaters viable is because of the lair mechanic being made central to their concept, and the lair mechanic pins any hearteater character down to one place. This ruins them for any mixed game immediately and people WILL try to put anything in mixed games including hearteaters if they have even the slightest justification ("we have a cool manse to home base at anyway, so we're never going to move anyway!") and the developers know this phenomena happens and will blow back on them when it causes friction in games. It also makes a full hearteater game much less fun than heateaters are supposed to be, because it's not like hearteaters are fucking dungeon cores or whatever, all of their lairs being built in the same place means all of their lairs are going to be too fucking similar. There's no variety in the kind of game you can play.

Basically it's not because their powers are too evil, it's because they don't mesh well in groups and the developers realised that making that not the case without significantly detracting from hearteaters-as-antagonists isn't something they're good enough to do. They're aiming for a worthwhile antagonist instead of an awful half-and-half trying to play both the protagonist and antagonist sides.

Realise that this is a 3e/Essence concept and any protagonist in the current design space has to have unlimited freedom of concept and unlimited power to go out into the world and smash aside all obstacles with trivial opposition. They're aiming at feelgood fantasy. That's the product they want to sell these days and keeping that design objective going is more important than making hearteaters viable.

>>96264502
What are you talking about, there's no mention of a lair mechanic for them. Some puppeteer example exigent has a few charms referencing lairs, but that's not hearteaters.

>>96264369
>>96264396
It was dogshit garbage then, it remains dogshit garbage now, and you know it.

>>96264574
I guess you think that if you never played the game.

>>96264561
That anon mistook 3e's for Holdeneaters

>>96264574
In terms of execution, maybe, but it was a solid idea and thematically a good fit for the game.

>>96264599
It was a shit idea too.

>>96264706
While all those well-considered and logically sound arguments for your position you're making are convincing, nah.

>>96264502
Holden seems to be aware about his Heart-Eaters problems, so he gave them some QoL options

>>96264714
It's just an extension of White Wolf's irritating obsession with quantifying things that don't need to be quantified. A vampire's moral degeneration from (on average) a normal person into a sociopathic parasite that sees other people as food, tools or threats is something that is perfectly fine simply being conveyed through roleplaying. Any halfway decent player can do that, there's no need to shoehorn in a mechanic that has never been good or added anything enjoyable to the game even with decades of extensive houseruling whose only purpose is getting in the way of playing the actual game, punishing players for arbitrary reasons and making it less fun to prove a point that was idiotic in the first place because bad players will always be bad players. It's the same thing that happened with Limit in this very game, but retards like you will continue to cope and defend this rancid garbage.

>>96264772
>It's the same thing that happened with Limit in this very game, but retards like you will continue to cope and defend this rancid garbage.
This was just Grabowski going "my ball, my rules", since white wolf is incapable of not railroading.

>>96264772
The problem is that they expect shitty players and have some mechanics centered around how immoral characters are affected specifically.
Revamping that would require a new edition with that in mind, with intimacy like character creation questions along the lines of "what's the worst thing you have done for blood?" Or "Who have you hurt and why?".
It would be a big change and I don't know if the writers would prefer that general direction.

>>96264958
>The problem is that they expect players and have some mechanics centered around how player characters should act specifically.
FTFY, the Great Curse exists because Grabowski players weren't shitheads.

>>96265051
The game should just have mechanics that reward you for being extra as an exalt. Rather than "the great curse" and "limit breaks," just like you get extra dice for adding unnecessary flair to your actions, make your powers stronger if you're doing more ambitious things with them and if you're going beyond the rational stopping point. Make it actually easier for the solar doctor to completely replace your body with living wood that breeds true than it is for him to just do a normal surgery, and easier to round up and brainwash into permanent legalistic compliance everyone who was aware of a crime before you than to just identify the criminal, and easier to cleave a mountain in half and sink part of it into the sea than to dig a normal tunnel through it, so that often players have to choose between failure and going way overboard. Being walking disasters will then take care of itself.

>>96259058 (OP)
Weekly Update
>FIRST DRAFTS
Essence Player’s Guide novellas
These stretch goal novellas are in the hands of our capable writers!
>Art Direction
Alchemicals – Sketches being revised
>Layout
Miracles of the Divine Flame – To Travis to wrap up
>Press
Exigents – Quoting
Exigents Screen – At Studio 2
Sidereals – Quoting
Essence Novella Omnibus – Prepping PoD
Abyssals – PDF and PoD versions on sale today on DTRPG!
it seems abyssals is finally out. the hardcover shipping will probably have the same delays exigents and sidereals are. the omnibus will likely be out in the next two weeks, and the exigent companion may enter proofing by month's end

>>96265101
MMOs figured that shit out decades ago but Exalted had already calcified that shit take into its identity.

>>96265101
That's... what the great curse and limit breaks are. It's not a mechanic for punishing the players, it's a tool to facilitate different stories. Without a mechanic that goes "Hey you can freak out and do crazy stuff now." people tend to play boring mary sues who do nothing cool and are never flawed.

>>96265623
That and "Hey, now your good superhero can do bad shit and its actually in character."

>>96265280
>These stretch goal novellas are in the hands of our capable writers!
I... have severe distrust and outright amazement at this. Has there ever been Exalted fiction (fan or otherwise) that stood on its own legs as a good story without requiring buyin from someone who was already a fan?

>>96265623
I've tinkered throughout the years on reworking Limit to be more of a carrot/stick approach than just you hit 10, now you go crazy as forced by the ST. Limit Breaks work fine if the player buys into it and the specific Limit Break works with their character but it's very easy for the player to not buy into it because it's externally imposed.

Reward players for doing bullshit stuff like the anon you're replying to said, give the player the control of when they act like assholes but have some sort of penalty enabled if they don't. So if they do want to play Mr. Goody Two-Shoes they are playing with a handicap. Ultimately you want the system to not FORCE the player to act like an asshole, but gleefully do it themselves.

>>96265701
the comic series from 1e is pretty good
i personally enjoyed the silence of our ancestors and think it would be decent divorced from it's greater context

>>96265753
I see what you're saying and for this I actually don't think you're wrong. For the sake of clarity though: Limit Breaks do reward you. They refresh your willpower from what I remember.

There is a big push for players to roleplay their limit break as "cleanly" as possible, which defeats the whole purpose. If you have the berserk limit break you should go berserk, not just attacking the enemies you were going to attack anyways.

>>96264502
Once again an anon is struck by a little bit of dementia.

>>96265838
Of course they do, however that reward can be more or less valuable. If you're already at full WP, the reward is nothing. Plus there's a very big difference between me pushing a player off a ledge and then giving them a cookie for it versus offering them a cookie if they jump off the ledge. The agency is a lot more empowering. Then they can sit on the ledge for as long as they want but all the other players jumping off the ledge have like 20 cookies. If they're willing to play a cookieless game, cool, but the other players are having a tastier time.

Trying to make a Limit Break clean is mostly a result of it being externally imposed. If the player agrees with the ST that's it's a really cool scene then they'll go hog wild. But if the player is in the middle of something they don't want to fuck up they're gonna try and get around it because they don't want to do it. You gotta make it appealing so they choose it themselves.

>>96263609
>2e! Infernals didn't have this problem

But in fixing that problem the writers created another one in the perpetual need to keep adding Yozi Charms to the mix, bloating the set beyond belief just to achieve some kind of barebones competence in an area of expertise.

>>96265623
>people tend to play boring mary sues who do nothing cool and are never flawed
Ironically enough limit leads to Mary Sue like writing, and we are talking about WW, they are publishing villain/"flawed" Mary Sues for decades at this point.

And see Korra to see how "flawed characters ≠ good characters".

>>96265623
Players are fully capable of playing all kinds of flawed characters without mechanics forcing them to, though. Even if mechanics are needed to help subpar players out, however, canon Great Curse is an extremely clumsy way of doing things.

>>96265901
Starting to think all the Yozi homebrew was less an expression of great enthusiasm towards the Inferals and more an attempt to get basic abilities the Solars already had into the set.

>>96265901
Anon, Infernals have the fewest charms of any solaroid.
>>96265905
Honestly, I'm guilty of that too. I'm in the middle of roleplaying something, having to "drop all that" and think about how to handle the limit break instead is just disruptive.

I do think people are exaggerating how bad it is however. Ultimately it's nice to have a reason to have your super cool character spend all day crying or going berserk in the middle of an enemy city. It just tends to be "This isn't fun to do right now, it's just disruptive and boring." as well.

It's nice when people talk about actual issues with the game though instead of made up shit that applies only to the games they run.

>>96265927
>Starting to think all the Yozi homebrew was less an expression of great enthusiasm towards the Inferals and more an attempt to get basic abilities the Solars already had into the set.
It was more of a "free real state" kind of thing, the main six lacked some of their aspects represented, while there other popular yozis that the fans wanted charms of.

For example a hegra hombrew used Malfeas' charms as an skeleton.

>>96265927
Honestly the Infernal Charm set had most of the tools necessary for paranoia combat in a much better framework than Solars did since they came out after paranoia combat was already setup. Infernals were the best positioned in the base 2e combat paradigm than any other splat. It's why they took such a beating when 2.5 came out because they were so deliberately designed under the 2e understanding of the rules. They might not have had the breadth of bullshit that Solars had randomly scattered across 10 splat books but the actual way of surviving and playing the game were there. Not to say the Infernal charm set was 100/100 accuracy. There were a couple of perfect defenses that were considered useless because of their Flaw of Invulnerability but the Charm set as a whole was far more solid than Solars, Lunars, Sidereals (lmao), DBs, and Abyssals.

>>96265961
>Ultimately it's nice to have a reason to have your super cool character spend all day crying or going berserk in the middle of an enemy city. It just tends to be "This isn't fun to do right now, it's just disruptive and boring." as well.
Yeah, this is why having let's call it "essence fever" built into the rules, where the power wants to be used in more extreme ways and rewards you for doing so, would be better.
Hell, the 2e infernals had a decent idea by having the ability to vent limit on purpose by being only slightly crazy. The "cartoon villain" setup you can take or leave, but having a mechanic like that where the players incentivized to choose to be unstable of their own volition is better. It could take many forms, like instead of making spatulas for craft XP you can get boosts and discounts by spending all day crying or going berserk in a city and having it actually cause problems. Like it's just easier to do stuff that directly opposes whoever you upset doing that than to just do the stuff.

>>96265789
I'll take your word for it, Anon.

>>96266211
Another reason Infernals are the better Exalt. /semi-jk
Also where their schizophrenia shows the clearest with how their Infernal Limit is described vis-a-vis Yozi interference.

But it only works for Infernal because it's supposed to be an external way to keep them on track with their Urge (read: Mission Objective). A punitive measure against the player character inflicted at the ST's direction.

For Solars it would have to reworked to something internal. Like you said, "Essence Fever". A natural increase in excitability that the Solar can "vent" by... doing something in-character/-game. As their Fever rises their automatic successes increases, but the minimum amount of... something they have to invest also increases. Until they've been suppressing this for long enough or (more likely) be unable to invest enough... something due to being tapped out that they crack open. An utterly cathartic scene-long release of no longer being tied down by anything or anyone. Go wild. Forget the past, the future. Forget yourself. Only the present exists and you are obligated to Stunt and purple-prose every action you make.

It'll need work and actual player to figure it out. But there is the seed of an idea there.

>>96260552
Lǐn Xuě Yā in the first few seasons? Probably gets up to an awful amount of hijinks that the Bureau of Destiny strangely struggle to predict and counter, but it's largely harmless save some people's prides and maybe a few people dying that likely deserved it in some way.

Lǐn Xuě Yā in the last season? Probably does a jail-break of Malfeas and busts the Yozi out.

>>96265789
Actually, this review I found
>I liked that as it shows a more grounded setting where not everybody is familiar with what the Exalted are or how the greater world works, while still showing off some of the capabilities of Exalts as compared to the mortals around them.
Is slowly edging me to dropping a few bob on it.

>>96259314
Three replies and already anon is posting about rape and his magical realm. This is a new record

>>96267886
It is my Creation and I decide who gets raped and what wherewhenthenthey get raped at.

>>96263156
1e Lunars deserved better.

>>96265280
Thank you very much.

>>96267886
>In my magical realm Infernals kidnap children for use as concubines in their hell-home. In my essay, I will explain how a freemarket will create ethical child slaves-

>>96268119
What you described is just 1e!Guild but more hellish

>>96268185
That's just how the Fae operate.

>>96265909
True, odds are the Intimacy rules did more to help people flesh out their characters in an interesting way than the Great Curse did.

>>96268185
Wasn't all of creation on that level?

>>96268119
Miko-Chan - Exalted Edition. Learn to raise lillun to be the best incubator possible. Cute ~and~ funny.

>>96267932
You'll never be Johannes Krauser III. Or Johannes Krauser I.

>>96267933
Would have been a huge leg up if they had hit off the example Alchemical Charms in Time of Tumult instead of trying to stuff Dragon-Blooded effects in at almost every corner. Because while there were some lessons learned in Lunars about Attribute Charms, apparently Zach Bush didn't need to make the mistakes to realize them; the sketched outline of Alchemicals stuff was already far, far ahead of whatever thoughts were circulating about how to handle Lunars being based on shapeshifting.

>>96267886
I guess that one anon last thread who kept going on about rape when other people were trying to talk about Lilith set the mood for this thread's start.

>>96261011
>The Great Contagion and Balloran Crusades wouldn't happen with the Solars around because their dead caused those events in the first place.
Cite your source for this, because the alternative timeline still would have had dead Solars. Solars died in the First Age, after all, and the gear shift that would've been necessary to save the First Age even without a Usurpation would've seen at least a few of the worst Solars dead.

>>96268682
A bitter tasting medicine, is that 1e!Lunars is the perfect answer to the "Bureaucracy ≈ rule well?" Dilemma, they are as exactly as Grabowski envisioned them

>>96268744
>"A few"

If the Bronze Faction didn't do its thing and the Gold Faction had all the power then more then a few Solars would be dying. It would have been a civil war so vast that Creation might have been torn apart. Remember none of this was guaranteed and the Bronze Faction themselves had a solid chance of losing.

Everything just came together, not perfectly but still together, and it took some huge sacrifices.

>>96269104
We have no idea what the solars continuing unchallenged would have been like other than bad. Solars were fighting amongst themselves and fighting each other over nothing before the usurpation.

>>96269126
I would have sworn it was said that if the solars just kept on doing their thing all corrupt and like that Creation wasn't going to hold up. So if the bronze faction didn't do their thing then the Gold Faction would have to. Because no one doing nothing just meant everyone dies and creation being ruled by the most vile of tyrants.

The first age had the highest of highs and the lowest of lows and those lows could be low. How the Gold Faction could "save" the solars from themselves I have no idea. Would be pretty metal though.

>>96259504
Man I'm still waiting for a Bow-based Martial Art.

>>96269154
There were basically 3 outcomes. Vision of Gold, Vision of Bronze, and the Vision of Darkness.

Doing nothing = Vision of Darkness

Talk to the Solars = Uncertain, low outcome, great if it works, Vision of Darkness if it doesn't.

Usurp the Solars = More certain, things suck but not as bad as the Vision of Darkness, could still fail and lead to the Vision of Darkness but lower chance of that happening than the Vision of Gold.

>>96267762
you could also just read it here

>>96269680
Storytime link?

>>96269432
Wait, there's none?!

>>96269432
>>96270991
Wood Dragon. Next.

>>96270912
read the op brudda

>>96269432

Crimson Panoply of Victory apparently uses bows, as well as shields/khatars/probably a whole bunch of other stuff. Design brief was apparently "Omnitactical Battle Hydra Style" so I expect a lot of weapon swapping.

>>96271090
I mean the comic.

>>96268744
>Cite your source for this
The fact that their ghosts were responsible for causing both of those events isn't enough my guy?

What is the best way to portray the Wyld and the Raksha?

>>96271244
https://youtube.com/watch?v=Lrle0x_DHBM&pp=ygUfZmlyZSBlYXJ0aCB3aW5kIGFuZCBmaXJlIGJvb2dpZQ%3D%3D

>>96271379
This does not answer my question.

>>96271160
use the
rebrand
redirect to
/owlnons_paths
or
MEGA II
in the
WoD/CoD general
search folders from there

>>96271244
As furries.

>>96271182
>The fact that their ghosts were responsible for causing both of those events isn't enough my guy?
Yes? There would be a bunch of Solar ghosts in the timeline where they purge the worst of the Solar excess, and there would be a bunch of Solar ghosts in the timeline where they do nothing and the Solars go completely mad too. The Deathlords come about down every path.

>>96271618
This does not answer my question.

>>96271741
In either timeline the death lords wouldn't form the same way they did in canon, meaning the contagion wouldn't be developed and if it did there would be many more people who could have developed a cure.

>>96272040
>the death lords wouldn't form the same way they did in canon, meaning the contagion wouldn't be developed
This doesn't follow. This isn't a world where butterfly theory works, we run on fate and convergence here. In semi-canon Exalted AUs it is the case that things tend to go roughly the same, so I put forward that if the alternate outcomes of the First Age were ever written, even with events not going down the same way, so long as enough bitter Solar ghosts formed and the Neverborn had the opportunity to elevate them into Deathlords they would have done so, and with this having been done a Great Contagion would eventually have sprung out upon the world.

>>96272125
Stop making things up. There are plenty of shards where things go in a total different direction. If the Gold Faction did their thing instead of the Bronze faction and won, things in creation would be totally different then what they are now.

Same with if the Bronze Faction did it's thing and lost. Totally different setting then what we have now. Remember that the sidereals and such were never totally sure that their plan was going to work and what the long term consequences would be.

>>96272384
Based in 1e lore; to make the Deathlords, you only need a bunch of spiteful Solar ghosts + the Neverborn being awakened, the latter was already done by the FAS themselves.

And the Deathlords weren't made at the same time, their total numbers grew up over the centuries, so it is possible for one to have been spooking around the times of the Solar deliberative.

>>96272426
According to Lords of Creation the neverborn aren't even the ones who discovered being an abyssal was possible - it was solar research that was stolen and then used against them. I don't know if that's technically canon but "Here is an abyssal before there are abyssals" is a thing.

Same goes with Green Sun Princes. It was never an original Yozi idea. Solars in the first age could take Yozi charms if they had a high enough essence. Shit was incredibly stupid and one of the shining examples of 2.5 solar wank.

>>96272455
Solarwank is so tiresome.

>>96259058 (OP)
What’s your favorite canon manse and/or hearthstone and why?

>>96272682
Canon: N/A, they're all bland and boring.
Fanmade: Mew-Cai, for reasons obvious to anyone who's read the comic.

>>96271084
>literally says on the tin it's for using a bow as a staff in melee
>doesn't apply to ranged attacks
That ain't what anybody means by "Bow MA" nigga.

>>96273027
The Chad 1st edition Bow-using Wood Dragon Style vs the virgin 3rd edition clubbing people with a bow wood dragon style.

>>96273349
>virgin 3rd edition clubbing people with a bow wood dragon style.
Strange how common this is in fiction, for bowmen to use their bows as melee weapons, be as staffs or dividing them into dual swords.

>>96273524
>not single Artifact along those lines in Exalted
The wasted potential is downright painful.

>>96273524
It makes perfect sense for an archer to have ways to fight in close quarters.

>>96273608
Historically they defended themselves with knives, shortswords, etc.
Plus, Wood Dragon stylists have a built-in way to fight in close-quarters, the style works just fine barehanded as well.

>>96273575
This is an artifact of the way the mechanics make multiple-combat-ability builds very inefficient. Which is why 1st ed Wood Dragon was special, you used the same stats to parry, punch people, and shoot them with magic soul-killing arrows.
3rd edition has something similar with Righteous Devil style, where you can both shoot fire at people and parry/beat/stab them with your firewand using the same point investment.

https://theonyxpath.com/ages-of-heaven-preview-3-devil-stars-and-divergent-emperor-vaidurya/
we got horrors beyond your comprehension now

>>96273670
Strange, from the way that they were talked about, I thought they were natives of the firmament, doing some vital cosmic function; instead of just parasites that the Exalted host just decided to not exterminate.

>>96273670
>we got horrors beyond your comprehension now
that's what the yozi are supposed to be

>>96273838
Yes, and the devil stars are somehow less esoteric than their IRL source of inspiration, the Aztec's Tzitzimitl

>>96273670
>From just the right angle, they appear almost feminine
Confirmed to be a valid target for Celestial Bliss Trick

>>96273670

Finally, a warstrider that doesn't have a bunch of evocations relying on being EVA-01 or using Devastation Actions. Time to learn those five with Four Magical Materials Form and blow up reality sans warstrider.

>>96273945
I don't know if you can use those moves without the warstrider. It'd be ST call.

>>96273997

Four Magical Materials Form lets you use most artifact evocations while fighting unarmed, no artifact needed, with the exception being stuff that requires the actual physical artifact or its attunement bonus to make sense. None of that holds here, if you can't use these then that bullet point in F.M.M.F does quite literally nothing.

>>96274174
I could see the rule that certain moves require the warstrider. Not the first charm but the capstone doesn't seem like it wouldn't be possible without it.

>>96274182

It's a big fancy fate AOE, I don't think it makes any less sense than using a flaming sword's big explosive slash or Sun's Brush's influence roll capstone with your bare hands. It doesn't require any mechanical things that warstriders have and normal characters don't, like Devastating Actions, and it doesn't require specific anatomy or do anything with the physical warstrider, so I think that one's actually one of the most clear-cut.

>>96274211
Wait it's not a devastating action, that's insane.

>>96274224

Nope, just an AOE demolition button. It also has no I.F.F, so use with care around friendlies. With at least 5 flat autosux on the damage roll I think I actually prefer this to The Moment That Is Murder as a pure nova strike, since that requires a fair amount of setup to get anything more out of it than this does.

>>96273918
What they don't tell you is that Malfeas is a valid target for CBT. All you gotta do is walk in and ground pound.

>>96276553
Malfeas? No. Ligier becoming infatuated with you in inflicting Final Vrididiscience every round as he pounds you into the ground? Yes.

>>96273670
We've got Stars out of space, now all we need is their Colors too and we can start get eldritch in this biz again.

>>96276726
There's nothing stopping you just putting Cthulhu Mythos stuff in Exalted. I've definitely done it for some of the less immediately recognizable things, or with small reflavorings of the more famous ones. You've just got to avoid powerscaling it out the wazoo.

>>96276798
Even in a best case scenario Exalted just doesn't really have a lot to bounce off from Lovecraft, at least if you want the horror aspect to work.

>>96273909
Are you talking about the thousands of decapitated heads that seek to eat the sun or am I mixing myths again?

>>96277204
Well, Conan, and the other Howard's stories too, took place in the same verse as Lovecraft.
Solomon Kane fought Tsathoggua, for example

>>96277342
These gals.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tzitzimitl

>>96277517
>, Conan, and the other Howard's stories too, took place in the same verse as Lovecraft.
Yeah but I don't recall those focusing on the horror all that much.

>>96273670
we had it before, they just didn't like what the horrors were

>>96277548
Solomon is more action horror, he and the Exalted host have too much "power/agency" for straight forward horror.

>>96277621
True.

>>96277621
It'd have to be body horror. Or in the Exalted's case, their Exaltations turning against them.

>>96277644
That's just how infernals are.

Any advice on Lunar character creation in Essence? I want to build something along the lines of pic related with a focus on poison charms.

>>96277651
I want to argue with you, but I don't remember enough about Infernal's Exaltations to do so. Is it a 3E thing?

>>96277668
I was just talking about the body horror and how much bullshit they have to deal with demons as their main patrons. To be honest I don't know all that much about them because they rarely catch my eye.

>>96277642
Certain tropes/narratives just don't for Exalted without coming as dickhead move.
Like the immortal monster vs Ghost Eating Technique, issue the devs have.

>>96277661
Go casteless, I heard it is one of the best castes.

>>96277701
>Like the immortal monster vs Ghost Eating Technique, issue the devs have.
Why didn't they copy the Clash of Wills mechanics again?

>>96277775
It is less an issue of "unstoppable rock vs immovable object" and more that the devs don't want you to to engage with them in the wrong way.

The devs wanted to preserve the "find mistletoe" narrative, so they stopped GET from cutting the chase down.

>>96277802
I think I'm misremembering things again, what did immortal monster did mechanically?

>>96277992
Both the Deathlords and Gaja-un are immune to permakiller charms.

>>96277701
>Like the immortal monster vs Ghost Eating Technique, issue the devs have.
GET only ever worked consistently on spirits and special cases. Immortals need to have it specifically written in as a flaw that they can be killed by GET for it to work on them if they weren't a spirit or fae. There have been behemoths and strange creatures and artifact abuses immune to it all the way through 1e and 2e.

>>96278049
... That sounds pretty lame.

>>96278093
You're pretty lame.

Sorcery + Keel Cleaves the Clouds (Control) + Mistweaver attunement + Fog-Raising Gesture + Tempered by the Elements (Fog and Mist) = ???

>>96278367
I know right!

>>96278049
That sounds fake. Ghost Eating Technique is meant to kill stuff that's immortal. The whole point is that Solars don't need to find 'The mistletoe' or deal with all the jank that can make shit immortal.

They had a problem with a fantasy world where everything could potentially revive because "You need X to kill it." they fixed it with Ghost Eating Technique. Now you're telling me they reintroduced that shit? wtf.

If I ever play a game where Ghost Eating Technique doesn't kill the immortal monster I'm just leaving the game. Flat out making charms that are traps now, god damn.

>>96279894
>Ghost Eating Technique is meant to kill stuff that's immortal.
Its meant to kill spirits. That's literally all its ever done. How the fuck did you invent this idea that's never been a mechanic in any edition?

>>96280133
You say that, but you already know this shit is going to used to make some shitty character that can't be killed with ghost eating. Again, people should leave your table if you pull that retard shit.

"The heroes of the First Age used Ghost-Eating Technique to slay the Neverborn and the demon hordes." literally the first line. no one cares that you made a god that can't be killed because mistletoe, quit fucking with shit that works.

>>96280246
Can you please actually post the page because you can't slay the neverborn. You can slay primordials and they can turn into neverborn which cannot ever die.

>>96280331
Page 221 of the core PDF or the various copy/pastes that you see hosted on the various wikis.

http://ninjasensei.wikidot.com/sc:solar-occult-charms#toc6

If I'm trying not to be an asshole then immortal stuff does matter. Exalts can't be killed with Ghost-Eating if they have a revive. Mortals with a revive won't be killed but how the fuck would one even get that. Dragonblooded and Sidereals have to deal with that.

It being able to kill neverborn makes no sense to me, I'm just copying stuff. If I'm wrong I'm wrong, but what the fuck. I'm quoting the damn charms. Maybe they meant killing the primordials that became the Neverborn? It's a core charm, core charms are always the most broken.

>>96280382
Ah. So it's a case of less-than-stellar wording, and players wanting to be the biggest dicks they can use their penis pumps (read: hands) for.

>>96280382

I presume that means "slay the beings that are now the Neverborn", which would be correct, rather than "slay the Neverborn again, killing them properly" which evidently has not been done because there are still Neverborn.

It works on spirits, it doesn't work on anything that isn't a spirit. I think 3e Sids have a charm to extend Terminal Sanction to un-Exalted enemies of fate (read: Raksha, undead with bodies and the occasional oddity) but I don't think anyone has a generic permakilling charm that works on any kind of being.

>>96280418
In 3e Ghost Eating works on everything. Terminal sanction doesn't need to work on non-spirits because in most cases they don't have unique kill clauses. They have medicine to permanently kill spirits.
>>96280382
That looks like an imperfect translation of 2e charms. I would look at the original for better wording but neverborn's immortality and deathlords being immune to permanent death from ghost eating technique are specific notations in their section. Currently they only apply to the neverborn which are dead but cannot fully die and want the death of all things and their servants the deathlords.

>>96280409
Maybe? I guess? Every core book ever has this issue.
>>96280418
...Technically the Neverborn could just be so hard to kill that no one was able to deal enough damage to it that Ghost-Eating would matter. Anyways, what is a spirit is pretty much everything that's not a mortal or exalt. Demons, Neverborn, Primordials, gods, the fuck is missing? Raksha and Behemoths are spirits as well from what I understand of exalted.

Zombies? Because it clearly works on ghost undead, its in the name. I feel like we're thinking about this too autisticly. It's supposed to kill immortal stuff, because that's what the charm was built to do. I really doubt it was built with "It perma kills spirits but not this other type of immortal thing that's going to be made in a book not yet released."

Honestly I'm not even sure about the exalted and mortal thing. Those also have spirits so who knows.

>>96280246
I'm not sure what the problem is in regards to the characters that can't be killed with GET. Are you upset that you and your friends will have to undertake a fun adventure to find their weakness?

In any case, Primordials are beings composed of multiple spirits that can be permanently slain with the Ghost-Eating Technique. need the charm in order to permanently remove their Third Circle Souls as part of the process of killing them. It has never worked on creatures like the Juggernaut or Arad the Hunter as they are aren't spirits.

>>96280459
Permanently kill ghosts I mean.

>>96280409
The the most notorious case of GET immunity are the Deathlords, who are a class of spirits/ghosts

>>96280466
You're more then welcome to make up whatever you want in your game with your friends. If I was running a game and someone took Ghost-Eating I'd try to make sure they felt like the charm was actually worth it though by being able to kill immortal shit. Ffs it literally says the Neverborn in the charm. The Neverborn are spirits but undead behemoths aren't? what the hell is the point. It works on demons but not gods? what.

It's going to feel like shit for that player who uses Ghost-Eating on a thing the charm says it works on only for said thing to revive anyways though. Like really bad. I would try to avoid shit like that. And again, this stuff does matter. For Dragon-Blooded. Solars were built to ignore stuff like that.

>>96280478
I mean the kind of player that sees a E3, Occult 4 Charm that upgrades a spirit-fighting Charm and immediately starts masturbating like they've found nirvana and are going to invade Hell and kill the Yozi, because they are the only ones smart enough to discover this loophole in reality; Is not one that is sane enough to consider that other people exist.
Seriously, remove
>If the spirit loses its last health level to this attack and dissipates, this Charm consumes the spirit utterly. Its Essence dissolves, and it will never be remade.
and what do you get with GET? A way to refill motes during combat that scales with damage output. Great sustain for when you're in the thick of it against the hordes of ghosts the Neverborn command, but nothing more than that.

>>96280510
The charm literally says it can permanently kill demons and the neverborn. What the fuck are you on? This isn't even hard, this is literally in the core book. The whole of exalted 2e is built around this.

I'm starting to think you people have actual brain damage.

>>96280510
>I mean the kind of player that sees a E3, Occult 4 Charm that upgrades a spirit-fighting Charm and immediately starts masturbating like they've found nirvana and are going to invade Hell and kill the Yozi, because they are the only ones smart enough to discover this loophole in reality; Is not one that is sane enough to consider that other people exist.
I read the 1e!Deathlord immortality sidebar, the ones who masturbated about their kewl characters, were the devs themselves.
It outright mocked STs who wanted the Deathlords having some flaw in their immortality.

>>96280462

The fae are definitely not spirits, they're not in the "spirits" section of either the 2e or 3e corebooks that I can see, and the listed spirits are gods, demons, elementals and ghosts. Can throw in the un-Surrender Oathed souls of Autobot too, I suppose.

>>96280459

3e Ghost-Eating Technique very much does not work on everything, it specifies "If a spirit is slain by this attack, itis destroyed permanently.....". If you somehow have the ability to reform after your body is destroyed and you are not a spirit, GET does not permakill you, the behemoth with a respawn condition gets back up, etc. The whole point of the Neverborn is that they were killed and the system of death and reincarnation attempted to divide by zero and broke in half, because they weren't meant to be able to die, so they are clearly not "just extremely heavily damaged".
Also, notably, there are still Neverborn, so the charm was not used to "kill Neverborn", it was used to kill the Primordials that then became the Neverborn.

>>96280478
>If I was running a game and someone took Ghost-Eating I'd try to make sure they felt like the charm was actually worth it though by being able to kill immortal shit.
Your players will take the charm to kill spirits, which is what the charm is for. There are only 8 of them that are explicitly immune to GET, but all other spirits will be permanently slain permanently. I am uncertain as to why your players would take a charm to do something the charm does not do. It would be like expecting Monkey Leap Technique to make you a better socialite or taking Harmonious Academic Methodology with the expectation that it would make you invisible.

>>96280537
The only one who has incurred brain damage is the person I am talking with who acts like Core is inviolable gospel and no-one is allowed to houserule that part out. You and you alone cannot detach your hand from your genitals out of the fear that changing this single charm will somehow render you dickless.

>>96280510
In 3e, Essence 3 is already elderhood

>>96280555
The problem is that, if a player is in position to GET a Deathlord, the Deathlord in question is pretty much narratively done for.
You need a high Essence circle Solar circle to do it.

>>96280537
Go ask the devs whether they meant that you could use GET to kill the Neverborn and tell me the diplomatic way they told you to fuck off back to the SPED class you escaped from. Do it.

>>96280547
Yeah, looking around I also don't see fae being listed as spirits. Which is weird because fae seem as spirity as you can get. I actually don't see anything that even defines what a spirit is - it's like the devs didn't think the fandom would be autistic enough to argue shit like this when the intent of the charm is so clear. Ffs, it says it can kill the Neverborn. If a thing dissipates at death and tries to revive this is the charm to deal with it.

what's this fascination with thinking you found the rock to this scissors. all you're doing to making the game worse for new players. gotcha moments are not good for a game.

>>96280555
i don't really care how you run games you weirdo.

>>96280579
...It's literally in the charm text. Are the PDF and the wiki I linked incorrect in the text? Is this some sort of editing mistake?

If there is some massive troll going around editing this stuff and altering the PDF so it says shit it doesn't actually say in the real books I would like to know. I did check the errata, this element was not changed in the charm text.

>>96280616
>Yeah, looking around I also don't see fae being listed as spirits. Which is weird because fae seem as spirity as you can get
In early 1e, it was a catch all term for gods, elementals, ghosts and random creatures that I am not sure what they were supposed to be.

>>96280629
Yeah, if it dematerializes on death and revives it's a target to this charm. That's what spirit do. By definition. At least that's what 2e core implies. I don't know how else people run the charm but my god. It's like they can't read. I imagine either no one has had the chance to hit a Neverborn with it or they have and doing so just wipes out all memory of it. Which would be pretty fitting.

Or - I'm being massively trolled and the charm I'm reading was somehow edited in both the PDF and on the wiki to say something they don't actually say in the books. People seem to think that's the case so I don't know.

>>96280625
>>96280653
Again. Engage your brain. Think. Think what a single (technically three) Charm would mean if Solars could use that to kill the Neverborn. It negates the importance of them. It reduces them from something of narrative import to something stattable. Accep the devs are fallible and change the rules of the book.
Just because there has been no official ruling from the devs does not mean you are disallowed from changing it yourself.

Please don't tell me you spend your time reading rules just to GOTCHA some obscure loophole.

>>96280657
this is some of the most incredibly projection I have ever seen. I'm not even arguing this point, I'm literally just quoting the text and saying you're wrong.

>Accep the devs are fallible and change the rules of the book.

That... that means that I'm right. What the fuck is going on.

>>96280657
having an aneurysm but i just
>obscure loophole
You mean the text of the charm we're talking about in the core book. that's the obscure loophole you're talking about. holy shit.

>>96280657
>Accep the devs are fallible and change the rules of the book.
It was more of a "devs wanked to their villain sues".

I once spent an hour teaching a non-verbal autistic adult how to wipe their own ass. It was a more productive use of my time than trying to explain to you why when running an actual game with actual people you should rule that Ghost-Eating-Technique should only affect Spirits, not Gods, not Neverborns, just Spirits. But you must be a special kind of stupid to consider how things work when having to deal with living people and not words on a screen.

Just accept that people have different interpretation and reason for said interpreations, and that some people will never be able to look each other in the eye.

>>96280705
>Gods aren't spirits now.
I just can't get over how much you people butcher this game. You're right though, taking care of non-verbal autistic people is exhausting. You're doing good work though, someone has to clean up all that shit. I never had to deal with the violent ones though, so apparently I'm very lucky.

>>96280721
>though though though
i got emotional excuse me. i miss my retards. even if i don't miss them barging into the restroom.

Reminder that this autist above me likes to argue with the strawman in his head instead of you. It makes him feel like a big boy. Just ingore him and let him wander off into another thread.

>Raksha and spirits.
1e didn't treat them as spirits, for example, the Raksha always had their how sections in the aspect/caste books, 3e made them more spirit like.

>>96280705
>rule that Ghost-Eating-Technique should only affect Spirits, not Gods, not Neverborns, just Spirits
So it only works on ghosts and demons?
And gods were listed as spirits in 1e.

>>96280705
I don't know where this really stupid shitpost came from but Spirits encompass, demons gods and ghosts. I think elementals too.

>>96280743
>. I think elementals too.
I am pretty they do count as spirits, they appeared in the "spirits" sections of the 1e books.

>>96280743
Elementals are 100% spirits, don't let the autistic trolls fuck with you. Gods too. I'm pretty sure fae are as well, seeing as how when they die they dematerialize and pop back up some place. Fairly confident at least.

Hell it can kill the Neverborn, why that hasn't been done or what happens when it does happen is up to you. Remember, a full group of essence 5 solars are supposed to be able to take on the sun itself.

Spirits are gods, demons, ghosts, elementals, daevas (in 2nd edition) and not much else. If it can learn dematerialize or materialize (or the crappy ghost version) naturally, it's a spirit. If it uses the spirit essence calculation (or the crappy ghost version), it's a spirit.
Fair Folk are not spirits.
Behemoths are not spirits.
I don't think the yozi/primordials even are spirits, they are naturally material, don't use spirit charms, don't use the spirit essence pool calculation, etc. They were killed by ghost-eating-techniqueing their fetich 3rd circle demon, which kept it from creating a new identity because it's identity was now "dead," which caused the primordial's core nature to be defined around being dead.

"Spirit" is a mechanics term, not a "whatever you think is spirit-y" term. D&D 3.5 stuff that affects "outsiders" don't automatically affect anyone living on the outer planes, or standing outside your house.

GET has never been a catch-all "kill anything unkillable" charm.

>>96280794
You're trying to convince the children who should have been left behind to use rhetoric. May I recc trying to break bricks with your head if you're this masochistic?

>>96280794
>"Spirit" is a mechanics term, not a "whatever you think is spirit-y" term.

It's cute that you think that. We've already had people say it doesn't work on gods. The charm of the text says it works on the Neverborn, doubling down on the whole kill the unkillable theme.

Someone else said it doesn't work on Deathlords and those are ghosts and further down the ladder then the Neverborn. I don't know what Gaja-un are but apparently those also don't count. Heck, some people were wondering if it worked on elementals.

I do find the idea that this charm works against demon hordes but not hordes of fae. That's just so stupid that I find it charming. In a bad way. Especially because I'm pretty sure they dematerialize as well.

>>96280813
The projection is insane. Are you the one that thought gods weren't spirits and that the text of the charm was mistranslated? Or was that a different Anon?

You idiots have totally ran a game where someone tried to use Ghost-Eating to kill your special god NPC and you got mad when they said it was lame that you didn't let that shit work. Stop doubling down on shit that makes the game worse, god damn.

>>96280868
>You idiots have totally ran a game where someone tried to use Ghost-Eating to kill your special god NPC and you got mad when they said it was lame that you didn't let that shit work.
I am pretty sure this is how the Deathlord's complete immortality began.

>>96280616
>Ffs, it says it can kill the Neverborn.
It did kill the Neverborn, in the sense that it killed them when they were Primordials. Let's break down the sentence you're referring to from 2e.
>The heroes of the First Age used Ghost Eating Technique to slay the Neverborn and the demon hordes.
The Neverborn do not have demon hordes and are still "alive" in RY 768; the Deathlords would not logically exist if they were no more and there is no mention in books such as MoEP: Abyssals or Compass: The Underworld of Solars going down to the Underworld to kill them again. The only rational way to read that sentence is thus: the Solars used it on the Primordials that would become the Neverborn.

>"gods aren't spirits"...
Now I wonder what else is passed around, I know that some lie about the Dragon-Blooded always were meant to be personally chosen by the dragons.

>>96280940
....Or it can kill the Neverborn, a much easier and simpler interpretation. The "and the" clearly implying that they are a separate thing from the Neverborn. If it was suggesting they were the same thing then A: English would have to work different and B: It would would say "and their".

We don't need to make a mess to explain something that has a very simple explanation. This charm can kill the Neverborn, as it can kill things that normally can't die. Like hordes of normally immortal demons. Why this hasn't happened to the Neverborn yet is something you have to make up for your game.

Maybe, just maybe, the solars never had the chance/opportunity/whatever to deal with the Neverborn problem. Or they are just really hard to kill. Or a thousand other reasons. Who knows. Maybe killing a Neverborn with it wipes them from memory. Again, who knows. Maybe killing them is a bad thing to do.

this really isn't all that hard to understand. why you think the Neverborn would be trivial to kill even with this charm being able to do it is weird as fuck though. You realize you still have to kill the fucking thing right? Just because you people run Autism Shards doesn't mean that shit applies to all of Exalted.

>>96280847
>It's cute that you think that. We've already had people say it doesn't work on gods.
I don't really GAF what you think is cute, and I don't think the fact that there's opposing retards in this thread makes your take any less retarded.
Actually, you know what else I don't give a fuck about? The reinterpretations of the pile of hack writers who came along for 2nd and 3rd edition.
Here's the actual text from a pdf of the 1st edition core, where ghost-eating technique and it's history in the setting were established.
Though I shouldn't bother, you're probably going to go "it says it killed the enemies of the gods, so it works on everything that the gods have ever been opposed by!"

>>96280997
Maybe, using your own retarded logic, the solars used GET to slay the neverborn. And yet the neverborn are still here. And you can go use it to slay them again! And they'll still be here. Gee, wonder what that means.

>>96280999
nah man, I'm more proud of you for doubling down on 1e being the best version of Exalted lore and rule wise. I don't see that often. It's pretty a rad autism.

>>96281015
Most of the time, it is 3efags pretending to be 1efags to throw shit at 2e.

>>96281013
You're more then welcome to post whatever you want about how you'd deal with the "Neverborn problem" as it were. I am literally just quoting the charm.

Ya'll have i don't know how many years of inbred homerules that have confused you on what the game actually says. god damn. It's actually impressive. I honestly feel a bit of envy.

Now that I think about it, in 2e, wasn't "get vs Neverborn" a mystery box? That the First Age Solars didn't want to open?

>>96281022
I'm a 1e fag who uses 1e lore with 3's ruleset.

>>96281034
I like to imagine that removing the plug to the drain that is oblivion would be a horrible, terrible thing. I imagine it's been done though and the results were bad.

GET says it works on Neverborn which implies it's been tested. The lack of information of Neverborn that have been "dealt with" doesn't exist, so maybe killing a Neverborn just destroys all record of them. Rather odd that we don't seem to have a single instance of someone trying to use GET on a Neverborn but it failing to work. Almost as if doing so would have some terrible ramifications.

Hell, GET clearly works on the Yozi and one of those hasn't been killed and turned into a Neverborn. Not even during the height of solar decadence. Probably because doing so would be terrible for the environment. Or maybe doing so destroys information of said Yozi. Lost names, ectect, so even if they do it you don't have records.

>>96259058 (OP)
What does the change in 3E Infernal Castes portend? I've seen them on the wiki but nothing more. How far from publishing is 3E Infernal?

>>96280997
I am uncertain why my explanation of "GET killed the Primordials that then became the Neverborn" is less simple than "Ok so the Solars killed the Neverborn but forgot about it and also there's some still left, and the writers of 2e, famous for sometimes overexplaining everything, never thought to mention this mysterious phenomenon."

>>96281150
A recent Monday meeting post announced that the Infernal Kickstarter for this Nov-Dec. We know that Infernals will be ability based Exalted in Ex3 and the devs have stated that their caste abilities will be completely different from what Solars or Abyssal have.

>>96281031
>Ya'll have i don't know how many years of inbred homerules that have confused you on what the game actually says
Such projection.

>>96281177
>Could have just made them attribute based to be weird
infernals are going to blow so many chunks.

>>96281177
I'm glad they're ability-based. Makes everything simpler to find.

>>96281185
Honestly, my biggest reservation about them is how Devil Bodies will turn out. Even if the entire splat is complete dogshit, we'll still be getting the first Solar circle spells since the core book dropped about ten years ago.

>>96281177
>ability based
Can't wait for Malfeas Performance.

>>96281168
I'm literally just quoting the charm and explaining how english works. That's it. You are more then welcome to larp whatever it is you want to larp. I was just giving you what I felt was a fun example, if you don't like it or want to engage in a fun way with it that's up to you.

I'm not even against the explanation that it's a shitily worded charm. Or that it's been changed. Or that it never meant what it says. I am just quoting the charm. It seem pretty clear that the "Killing the Neverborn" line was meant to imply that it can kill the unkillable. The "and the" implies that it was also used effectively against hordes of immortal demons.

I did check the errata and saw no change to the line about it being able to kill the Neverborn. If we do a deep dive on google we can maybe find people who were having this exact same conversation, if you'd like. I'm sure it exists somewhere.

For me this charm just feels like a way to make immortality matter for deeb games and such, while making it so solars can always be a threat to shit that can normally just revive. Immortals being in fear of the solars feels like a theme but who really knows.

>>96281177
>the devs have stated that their caste abilities will be completely different from what Solars or Abyssal have.
They said the same about the Abyssal's castes being completely different from Solar's, and we know from Essence that they are mostly the same.

>>96281150
For good and ill it's going to make them feel less edge lord. Slayer was always a pretty silly name for a caste imo. Where are you finding information about them? I haven't really seen all that much posted and I'm very curious.

>>96281195
>Can't wait for Malfeas Performance
Considering green nimbus flare, it is just reflavored Solar performance but rerolling 10s instead of 1

>>96281200
I'm not sure that the mechanics support that. It is, after all, fairly clear that it doesn't work on anything that isn't a spirit. The subsequent text following the natural language is fairly clear. You would not be able to permanently kill the very physical Arad the Hunter with it, as he is not a spirit.

I feel like you should bring this interesting claim to Sword of Creation. I would be interested in seeing a broader selection of Exalted fans discuss your interpretation of the charm.

>>96281208
They said that Abyssal castes would have their 2e abilities plus three new ones, which they do. ExEss was developed by a different team.

>>96281240
I mean shit, if you want to admit you lost then go for it. I accept your defeat, here's hoping you don't brick your next game with the stupid shit you seem to want to pull. I just hope you understand that all I'm doing is quoting the charm and that this is something that's going to keep coming up for you.

>>96281209
Pulling this info out my ass
>https://whitewolf.fandom.com/wiki/Infernal_Exalted

>>96281266
Without a broader audience to participate in this debate and measure the worth of our points, there is no real winner. We shall end upon a stalemate.

Also I don't play 2e, so this would not matter in any of my games.

>>96281209
Not really, since caste is derived from you social function.
Leaders/priests, warriors/military, worker, merchant and untouchable.

>>96281209
Not really, since caste is derived from your social function.
Leaders/priests, warriors/military, worker, merchant and untouchable.

>>96281316
I'll give you that, but the actual names feel like the Yozis were in their angtsy edgelord phase when they named their Princes.

I've also got the mindworm of a "kind" Green Sun Princess. Collecting orphans she made and raising them in her house-cum-orphanage. Can't decide whether I want to play it straight or subvert it.

>>96281391
>I'll give you that, but the actual names feel like the Yozis were in their angtsy edgelord phase when they named their Princes.
Well it is WW after all, and they are from demon the fallen (paradise lost fanfic), it couldn't be helped.

>>96281418
I hope Kimbery is included in the main splat and not relegated to whatever the fuck Broken-Winged Crane was trying to be. Do approve of the intention of making Yozi more esoteric since I disapproved of how human they made a god sewn into his own flesh and suffering the death of one of his souls while labouring under the Treaty of Mega-Verseilles.

The fact that the Infernal Exalted are not intended by the Yozi to be the ones this time around to lead the Reclamation is... not something I expect to survive to the final release, or if it does it'll have a forgotten aside thrown into a single paragraph about Cecylene or something.

>>96281532
I would be shocked and amazed if they went with ability exalted and didn't use the opportunity to use charms from other Yozi. We might finally see some canon Oramus charms. This might be the biggest advantage of it and that's coming from someone who really likes essence based exalts.

>>96281707
Biggest trap would be tying Abilities to Yozi. Inadvertently or otherwise. Let Malfeas and SHLIN dance!

>>96281716
What awaits the Infernals once they enter that room?

>>96281716
when the jade prison shit posts.

>>96281716
But I'm not a Liminal. How will I ever enter?!

>>96281721
A meeting room with Getimians and Exigents.

>>96281728
Their problem is that the are exalts

>>96281736
Liminals are Exalt-presenting and excluding them from Exalt-only spaces is discriminatory.

>>96281713
We're not going to get that because they explicitly said no yozi charms. So just expect a generic charmset with yozi flavor.

>>96281707
If we use Exalted Essence as a preview of what 3e Infernals might look like, it seems to be taking from a broader selection of Yozi than the big five. There's charms inspired by Isidoros, Kimbery, Szoreny, Hegra, Sacheverell, and Metagaos sprinkled throughout the three books with charms for them. They also tend to mix Yozis in the abilities; Infernal War has charms from Malfeas, TED, SWLIHN, and even a mode for one charm inspired by one of Adorjan's daughters.

>>96281785
So a lot freer to invoke the concept of more Yozi and even their souls, but at the loss of conceptually mantling the Yozai in question; Given that they also tied to the Castes themselves I can understand how it could stifle to have the Slayers be designed around Malfeas and Malfeas alone. I'll probably end up homebrewing the charms back into their Concepts.

Hey. What canon info do we have for what could happen after a succesful Yozi Reclamation?

>>96281843
>Hey. What canon info do we have for what could happen after a succesful Yozi Reclamation?
3e? It is impossible, 2e? Something about Ma-Ha-Suchi being raped to death.

>>96281843
First of all, their surrender Oaths means that they are exiled from Creation in such a way that as long as Creation is distinct from Hell, they can't enter it. Thus, once Hell is on Earth, the Yozi can travel the last 5 days into Creation and start fucking Incarnae again. TA HAVE!

It's on the same level of 'what-if' as Autochton returning to Creation. Nice though excercise and someone will make a campaign out of it. But on a practical level it's not worthing spending canon dev-time on it. Just remember Malfeas will now have Vitriolic Dragon Lines and that the Infernals will be betrayed.

>>96281843
Well. Return of the Scarlet Empress talks about what happens with the Ebon Dragon when he escapes. It sucks. All the others I imagine would be much the same.

How would Oramus or Szoreny fuck up creation if they were set free?

>>96282274
>Szoreny
Going to the north-east and making Halta into his own personal kingdom was his plan for if he could negotiate parole by selling out the other Yozi from Return of the Scarlet Empress.

>Oramus
Captured in his wings or no? He's not actually bound in Malfeas, he's bound up in himself, and if he was released from his binds he could escape Malfeas back to Creation trivially. If he was pulled out of Malfeas by way of, I don't know, Neighbourhood Relocation Scheme or something, it probably wouldn't be that bad. His ball is pretty inactive. You'd get a lot more cultists and madmen but it'd be relatively localized to the area. The real issue would be that his second and third circle demons would be free in Creation, able to spawn new races of first circle demons, and that's a serious power bloc easily on par with the Sidereal-backed Realm or fully activated River Province.

>>96280625
Nothing about the Neverborn in any edition is written with the assumption that they could be killed by GET in mind.

>>96282566
Even the most casual google shows people talking about using GET to kill Neverborn and various other things that people in this thread have said it doesn't work on.

Why are people so obsessed with making immortal mary sues who can't be killed even by the solars? You do understand that doing shit like that is going to make it so the only NPC's that matter are the only with "le epic immortality" right? GET being able to perma kill shit keeps the game good. You don't need to fuck with this.

I am 100% sure now that you people have run an NPC that is immortal even when hit by GET and that it came up in game. If anyone called you out on how lame that is I hope you understand that they were right. It is very, very lame.

>"you can be a totally super awesome demigod in this game dude!!!"
>setting intro is said demigods all getting killed by a bunch of shitters

>>96281716
Oh no, as a superior Cosmic Exalt I'm surely barred entrance!

>>96282644
Neverborn are about the furthest possible thing from Mary Sues. Their whole point is that they want their suffering to end but can't properly die, and all their dramatic plans for destroying Creation in order to be able to move on or end would make no sense if GET could deal with them.

Also the original 1E Charm text for GET says nothing about killing the Neverborn, and in fact it specifically says that it works on dematerialized spirits, and that "spirits that have materialized are no longer vulnerable to the Ghost-Eating Technique". Now, granted, what with natural language not being a 3E-exclusive problem, I'm not 100% sure whether that part's supposed to just mean that materialized spirits don't take aggravated damage from GET and don't have their motes drained by it, though the most straightforward an obvious reading of the text is just that materialized spirits aren't affected by the Charm. I think that's kinda dumb but it's there.

>>96282813
By "shitters" you mean other, weaker but still pretty strong and a whole lot more numerous demigods, right?

>>96282930
Nta but I think he's talking about the fact that they're able to levy punishments against the Deathlords and Abyssal Exalted that neither of the two have any way of defending against. Not that I like 3e's solution any better. The Neverborn in 3e exist in a state of quantum superposition where they are nominally totally incoherent and unable to do anything, except whenever they need to uphold a sacred cow like the reason for the Lion's strapped on armor, at which point all of a sudden the 3e writers totally cave and admit that YEAH also the Neverborn are exactly as awake as the plot needs them to be.

I hate 3e so much on every level.

>>96282930
>By "shitters" you mean other, weaker but still pretty strong and a whole lot more numerous demigods, right?
wow that's so different from being a normal guy!

>>96282813
Half the point of the game is that the only difference between a shitter and a demigod is how much power they have relative to others. Fresh Solars are in fact shitters when the Wyld Hunt is in town.

>>96282946
Yes, demigods and normal guys are pretty different.

>>96281785
>If we use Exalted Essence as a preview of what 3e Infernals might look like
Then I'm going to vomit and never stop as my eyes bleed at the devs attempting to reinvent the Yozis as the sponsors of "misguided revolutionaries". The Infernal Exalted are supposed to be a product of spite and malice. Writing them as an attempt by the Yozis to EMPHASISE with humans is as absurd as writing a Malfeas who is actually very happy to be Hell.

>>96282956
apparently not in any way that matters

>>96282930
In 2e there was a bunch of stuff going around about how to deal with the Neverborn. One of the books talks about turning them into a wall. You also don't see any Neverborn working towards that. Or any of the other countless fixes that an ST could make up.

Also, I'm not even sure if the Neverborn have had the chance to ask the solars to fix them. Why would they even expect them to help. GET does seem like it'd be a nice thing to do to the Neverborn after all.

>>96281843
>What canon info do we have for what could happen after a succesful Yozi Reclamation?
Based on the Malefactor and Defiler caste page info in Manual: Infernals, a successful Reclaimation amounts to making Creation sufficiently identical to Hell enough for the Yozis to just walk out. So...looney towers with weird geometries, silent winds, acid seas, shit being noisy and dangerous. Malfeas in particular wants to raze Creation into a cycle of creation and destruction as revenge for his mutilation but the others have different priorities. SWLIHN legitimately wants An-Teng to be an organised and efficient theocracy (under her) for example; it's brought up in RotSE as a potential way to tur her against Ebby. Cecelyne seemingly just wants to expand for expansion's sake. A successful Adorjan campaign apparently looks like her claiming the artificial Elemental Pole in the north, killing everything there, and then just kind of enjoying the silence. The Ebon Dragon is an edgelord because for all of Exalted's pretences at nuanced writing, writing a craven sadistic edgelord is the approach that comes the most naturally to WW-trained writers.

>>96282945
>the Neverborn are exactly as awake as the plot needs them to be.
That's not inherently bad, though. Like, the Neverborn being mostly incoherent but something sufficiently important occasionally activating enough of their eternally decaying neurons, or a spookier and less physical alternative to neurons, for them to momentarily pull themselves together and pay attention is fine. Personally, I kind of like the idea that the Usurpation was a big enough deal and impacted the Underworld enough for the Neverborn to wake up from their dying nightmares long enough to make a deal with the Deathlords, that they mostly fell back to an incoherent state of torment after that, but that the Deathlords now serve as anchors to whatever awareness the Neverborn have left, meaning that the actions of the Deathlords are the one thing aside from their own suffering the Neverborn are aware of, mostly in a dim and unclear fashion, but with great triumphs, great failures and great betrayals alike being enough to elicit a moment of clearer and more purposeful scrutiny.

>>96282962
I mean, demigods rule the world, an when Solars were overthrown it was other demigods rather than normal dudes who did so. Those seem like pretty meaningful differences to me.

>>96282972
The plan for Abyssals isn't to wait until one of them learns the GET-equivalent and just releases the Neverborn from their misery, either. Instead they're supposed to work towards the world's destruction.

The whole point of the Neverborn is that they exist because GET was used on Primordials and it didn't work properly because they're too big to die properly. Why would GET then work on the Neverborn? Plus, it explicitly doesn't kill deathlords correctly, and one would think that the deathlords, who had "all Abyssal and Solar charms" in 2e could just be ordered to use GET on their masters if that was the case, or have an Abyssal do it. There is an infinite amount of evidence that the writers did not intend for GET to kill Neverborn.

>>96282813
>the few getting oppressed by the many (normal), :I
>the few getting oppressed by the many (demigod), :O

>>96282952
Fresh lone Solars.
The moment they form a circle, you get a bull of the north situation and a whole DB house eats shit.
DB have also fallen from the power and numbers they had during the usurpation.

>>96282972
>One of the books talks about turning them into a wall.
Ink Monkeys, specifically. And on the one hand the writer was a very egomaniacal First Age Solar. On the other hand, based on dev commentary he was also an extremely successful one. That's all besides the point because it's not a plan the Neverborn would ever pursue because helping them is a TERTIARY CONSIDERATION compared to the actual goal of the proposed project, which was to barricade Creation against the Raksha. Think about it logically. The Neverborn hate the Solar Exalted. Why in the ever-loving fuck would they approve of any plan contingent on having Solar Exalted demolish and reconstruct them?

>>96282981
>That's not inherently bad, though.
As it's implemented in 3e, it's awful because I don't get what you're describing from 3e AS WRITTEN at all. It's all well and good to throw around statements like "Oh, it would be nice if X was Y, and Z happened because of the Devil-Stars (who are still well-described in any published material)" but in practice it doesn't come across like that to me. It comes across like what I said, that the writers open by claiming the Neverborn are inert and then slowly and reluctantly backtrack on that claim ot make the setting happen.

And because of that bad implementation, I'm more pessimistic towards the concept in general.

>>96282991
>There is an infinite amount of evidence that the writers did not intend for GET to kill Neverborn.
To be fair, it is in part the writers' fault for not actually specifying what happens if you do beat up a Neverborn sufficiently for something interesting to happen. Which they did provide rules for. Leaving us all in the dark about what happens next.

Imagine some retard strength Solar and Lunar couple physically bulldozing a Neverborn just to find out that actually, an already mutilated and tormented titan just fucking dies and that's it, no GET needed. No twist. It's that simple. The other Neverborn immediately start begging for them to repeat the process, promising everything from the riches of the Underworld to slightly less eternal torment than usual with their dying gasp.

>>96282991
How many interactions do we even have with the Neverborn? Was attacking them even an option? I'm not going to argue author intent, I'm just saying what the charm says and saying there are plenty of examples of people running their game with GET being able to kill Neverborn and using it as a general kill all charm.

Maybe they couldn't hit them hard enough, who knows. Or maybe Neverborn have infinite HP and GET requires you to do HP damage. I don't know how the mechanics would have to work to land a 'killing blow' on the Neverborn or what the out come would be. I also don't know how you'd turn them into a wall.

>>96283000
>The moment they form a circle, you get a bull of the north situation and a whole DB house eats shit.
While you're not wrong that Solars getting together is multiplicatively bad, the Bull of the North's circle is exceptionally stacked. Potentially to a ridiculous extent, if it's a continuity where the Bull is an elder Solar back from the Wyld after an extended sojourn post-Contagion. Even without that it's still six Solars with at minimum a solar circle sorcerer and a bunch of powerful artifacts.

>>96283020
>I'm just saying what the charm says
You're saying what the Charm says in one edition while ignoring the other two, including the original Charm text that doesn't mention the Neverborn and says that materialized spirits aren't vulnerable to GET.

>>96283020
>Was attacking them even an option
We have a big black page in Manual: Abyssals 2e that I know of explaining how many health levels it takes to crack their tomb-worlds. What happens after that is left up to ST fiat, and therefore entirely unhelpful. For what it's worth, GET is never specified as being required for the brute force needed to crack said tomb-worlds which is apparently possible.

>How many interactions
And in every other interaction with the Neverborn across all of published Exalted, they are tormented and hateful plot devices who consistently desire the end of everything, can torture or empower dead things freely (in one end to RotSE, they decide the Heron has fucked up one too many times so they rip her to scraps and use those scraps to turn the Scarlet Empress into the newest Deathlord), and have a more limited ability to curse Creation (Resonance targeted at Abyssals cursing Creation is specifically singled out as working as intended by making the world at large worse in Manual: Abyssals 2e, also some high level necromancy spells are fluffed as the Neverborn's direct intervention in accord with the caster's will)

Oh yeah, and in 3e they spontaneously generated an expy of fucking Grand Maw from Orpheus through their nightmares. Lmao. Lol, even.

>>96283045
>You're saying what the Charm says in one edition

Yes, exactly, thank you. Don't need to read past that.

>>96283047
Where does it talk about cracking open the tomb bodies and is it explained why that hasn't been done before? 2e implies pretty hard that making new Neverborn would have been a bad thing and that's another reason why the surrender was accepted. At least from what I remember, could be wrong on that. I'd have to double check desu.

>>96283064
Here you go. Manual of Exalted Power: Abyssals 2e, p. 46. No idea if 1e has anything similar.

>>96283064
>Yes, exactly, thank you. Don't need to read past that.
You really should. You're not referring to either the original nor the latest version of the Charm, and therefore aren't saying anything about how it was intended to work in the original vision for the game. If referring to any one edition is enough of an argument, however, you should still accept that saying that the Charm only works on dematerialized spirits and doesn't say anything about the Neverborn is a true statement - that's what it says in the 1E Core, after all.

>>96283064
>and is it explained why that hasn't been done before?
Also hell no. The reason you gave, 2e implying that making more Neverborn=bad, is why the Exalted didn't kill all the Primordials. Otherwise there is no given reason why they didn't double-kill the Neverborn.

...okay there may be an implied one but I'm uncomfortable with it because it's an inference from an already exceptional circumstance. In the First Age, the demon Amalion married a Solar Exalt and the marriage apparently worked so well that Amalion still thinks fondly of that Solar, and the Deliberative got together to throw their wedding. Inexplicable as this sounds, the implication seems to be that at least some writers intended there to be more nuance to the Surrender Oaths than "you are the prison bitches of the Solar Exalted from now until eternity, forever and always, and we can do whatever the fuck we want when we call up your souls and make them dance for our entertainment or choke down our cocks". Which, hypothetically, could include a ban against mutilating corpses.

I'm uncomfortable with this theory because not only does it require reading between the lines and second-guessing separate writer teams working at cross purposes with nobody explicitly identifying themselves as responsible for certain fuckups, but it also requires assuming the First Age Solars were responsible enough to adhere to that. For the most part. Discovery of necromancy aside.

>>96283081
Very, very interesting. So really you don't even need GET to kill the Neverborn. It's amazing how canon differs from the stuff that gets posted here all the time - it's as if people don't read the books they play.

You ever see a game where someone ticks off that last health level from a Neverborn? Just wondering how it's been played off in other games.

>>96283081
I hate when they're like 'oh they've got INFINITE soak and a HUNDRED HEALTH LEVELS' but nothing to mitigate minimum damage and no way to meaningfully attack you. The Neverborn and Mount Mostath both did this and both times it was fucking silly. Some fucking peasant miner with a pickaxe and the Ring of Being could kill them.

>>96283174
The section anon posted doesn't say tgat the Neverborn die when they're killed, though, it says that what happens is up to the ST. Sometimes it feels like at least half the anons here have some kind of a legitimate impairment of reading comprehension.

>>96283174
>So really you don't even need GET to kill the Neverborn.
Tbqh like I said, it's not really helpful as a source since the writer just leave what actually happens as a mystery box. For all we know the Neverborn just gets back up again like nothing happened. Or it really is that simple to kill one and every character in the setting is stupid for not obliging the death-yearning titans' desire. There is literally not enough compelling evidence to call it either way, from what I know.

>it's as if people don't read the books they play
While I read 2e because I enjoyed it, warts and all, I make a point of reading 3e specifically because I hate it so I want to be able to argue against it coherently and consistently.

>You ever see a game where someone ticks off that last health level from a Neverborn?
I know a friend who claimed his group ended up fighting an avatar of Malfeas (and before you ask he didn't say how the fuck that worked; based on his comments I think they basically just took one of the super heavy duty Behemoths, slapped on the Kukla's attack rules and called it Malfeas), but no. I've never heard of one doing so.

>>96283219
>Mount Mostath
Reminder that going by RAW, Mount Mostath can jump very, very high.

>>96283231
>Reminder that going by RAW, Mount Mostath can jump very, very high.
Okay look yes rationally the peasant miner can't actually beat Mount Mostath because Mount Mostath can jump away, reaching the other side of Creation in a single second, or pick up a nearby mountain and drop it on him (...or would that be a Dexterity + Thrown attack? Hm.) and rationally the Neverborn will summon a sea of hungry ghosts to physically beat the shit out of the miner, but the general idea is still there.

>>96283231
>>96283225
Oh I'm just messing around. Point is the Neverborn have had stats and can even be attacked. It even says that you can tick off the dying level and that what happens is up to you. That's a far cry from them being immortal or whatever.

>>96283219
I mean, if the peasant could avoid all the stuff the Neverborn can send after it while being bombarded by mental effects, then sure? Seems like a very odd hypothetical.

>>96283251
>I mean, if the peasant could avoid all the stuff the Neverborn can send after it while being bombarded by mental effects, then sure? Seems like a very odd hypothetical.
It's why I mentioned the Ring of Being, which makes you immune to the Neverborn's mental effects and powerful magical effects. That said, the take was pretty bad because according to that pic the Neverborn actually have Abilities and Attributes all rated 10, so they can just dodge his pickaxe swings, reach out and Brawl the shit out of him.

>>96283081
>treat the Neverborn as having values of 10 in every relevant trait: Abilities, Willpower, Essence, Virtues, figured static values, the works
The Neverborn are the most virtuous characters in Exalted. They have Compassion, Conviction, Temperance, and Valor all rated 10. The Neverborn are the most true antithesis to the Ebon Dragon.

>>96283265
It's a fun idea. It does say Neverborn can't take physical actions so... no brawl and all that. I get the vibe though, it could have been made more interesting/better then what it was. If that's close enough to what you're saying.

I'm charmed by the simplicity of it desu.

>>96283274
The Ebon Dragon is treated as having a rating of 10 in pretty much everything, doesn't mean he actually has that. It's just the person he's mirroring, Sol himself, also has 10's in everything.

Or something like that.

>>96281716
Hearteaters because they are the worst and adamant is so snowflakey as a material that it should be retconned.

Even if Essence sucks, I'm very glad that Neall Raimon Price made them antagonists only.

>>96283284
>The Ebon Dragon is treated as having a rating of 10 in pretty much everything
Only on his Abilities and Attributes, and only when they're checked by an external effect, which is an important distinction vs the Neverborn ones. The Ebon Dragon's Virtues also drop to 1 from Hollow Heart Transcendence.

The Neverborn on the other hand are treated as having high Virtues all the time. This would imply that they have to spend a point of willpower to suppress their Compassion every time they want to do something horrifically evil to decent people, which is a fun image for me considering how much of that they get up to.

>>96283274
The Neverborn are compassionately trying to erase each other's pain as well as grant Creation mercy from the atrocity of being alive, absolute in their convictions that they MUST die, and valorously raging towards the dying of the light. Also they're obviously very temperate since they didn't take kindly to the Lion going off-mission.

>>96283284
>Or something like that
The Sun has 5s in every Virtue, however so long as he does not suppress Conviction then Perfection Beyond Imagining ensures when he spends 1wp, he automatically succeeds with a threshold of 10 over any difficulty rating or any direct or indirection opposition. Explicitly, "No penalty, target number manipulation or other detrimental effect can lessen this success in any way" and "in the case of comparing static traits, he is assumed to have a rating 10 higher than any opponent". This leads to an odd situation where the Sun can't change his Virtue ratings, but if the Sun were to get into an argument with another hypothetical being with 5s in everything (probably She Who Lives In her Name) reality itself acts as if the Sun has 15 in every Virtue for the purposes of conflict resolution and other forms of winning, despite that not actually being the case. Unless he suppresses Conviction. At which point his Virtues droop back down to a measly 5.

>>96283276
Part of the Neverborn's torment is weeping for all the lost puppies and orphans out there in Creation, and consequentially thinking of creative ways to grant them the peace of death as a mercy.

>>96283379
>the Sun has 15 in every Virtue for the purposes of conflict resolution and other forms of winning, despite that not actually being the case. Unless he suppresses Conviction. At which point his Virtues droop back down to a measly 5.
>The Neverborn are compassionately trying to erase each other's pain as well as grant Creation mercy from the atrocity of being alive, absolute in their convictions that they MUST die, and valorously raging towards the dying of the light. Also they're obviously very temperate since they didn't take kindly to the Lion going off-mission.
Top 5 Most Virtuous Characters in Exalted
1: The Unconquered Sun
2: Unnamed Neverborn
3: Unnamed Neverborn
4: He Who Holds in Thrall
5: Unnamed Neverborn

>>96282274
Still find it hilarious what SWLIHN did to the West.

>>96282957
>Yozis as the sponsors of "misguided revolutionaries". The Infernal Exalted are supposed to be a product of spite and malice
Historically speaking, these two are closely linked, but it would require the writers to be far better writers than they actually are

>>96283292
>adamant is so snowflakey as a material that it should be retconned.
They could have made the Alchemicals or the Infernals Resonant with it

>>96283753
What's this from?

Surprised by the lack of a Lunar shitstorm

>>96284504
I guess there isn't guy who just read about them around. I you want to talk about them just narrow it down a bit and odds are people will get the ball rolling.

>>96284023
Alchemicals are not real exalts since they are just prototypes and how they are made.

>>96284504
You can only be annoyed by trash so much before you just don't care anymore.

>>96284903
Lunar posting is going strong, even after 20 years

>>96284903
The problem is how easy it is to move the bar in this particular medium. If you dislike something you just put a note in your house rules and done.
For example, people who like the Lunars make them more important while others delete them. Personally I like them as the wandering hegemons of the borderlands but I understand how that may annoy people.

>>96284865
>. I you want to talk about them just narrow it down a bit and odds are people will get the ball rolling.
Let's try.

Considering that the moons were meant to be shamans, they should have had Charisma as a caste attribute, changing moons can take Wits in turn.

>>96285002
I only bitch when I think about the full rewrite I want to do but won't because it's too much work. Same with DBs. DBs have objectively the worst charmset in the game and have for all 3 editions and no one cares because they're weak but they aren't just weak but also boring.

>>96285003
That would mostly just fuck with the changing moons for very little gain.

>>96285003
>>96285194
Understandable, but given the fact that creation's magic doesn't depend on third parties, like WtA, it would come off as kinda pointless.

>>96285194
The changing moons were fucked since day 0, they were never meant to be a social caste, see red jaws.

They are a rogue/ranger caste, analogous to the Night caste, giving them the social attributes screwed up Lunars.

>>96285210
>they were never meant to be a social caste
Despite having all social Attributes, god white wolf is retarded.

>>96282644
Retard, any exalt attuned to a gem of incomparable wellness is going to survive being killed with GET, GET is for spirits. You're a faggot who is making up rules out of flavor text.

>>96285466
>making up rules out of flavor text
I don't really care that you're retarded, but thank you for saying that the flavor text says exactly what I'm saying. This stuff is so obvious that even you can't deny what the text says.

Look a few posts above to see how to kill the Neverborn btw. Although you need to also understand that when you put them into the dying state it's up to the ST what happens next.

>>96285419
Yes, reading 1e you will notice it.
Despite being their favored spread being (mental, social and physical) their castes were actually (fighter/berserk/full.m, mage/shaman/no.m and thief/ranger/changing.m), because of this the lack of social charms under changing moons, they received shapeshifting instead.

2e and 3e devs accidentally broke Lunar's castes dynamics while fixing them.

>>96285556
Yeah it's weird how little they have to shape minds an perceptions despite what define Charisma, Manipulation and Appearance cover.

>>96282957
The Yozi are limited in their empathy, what with being malformed Primordials and their inherent madness, so they choose the thing that resonates the most with the Exalted-to-be. The sense of being cheated, of denied by others, of trying your best and failing anyway.

>The world has turned against you, so we offer you the chance to turn against the world.

>>96284118
Near the end of Return of the Scarlet Whore. I would need to re-read it to find out where it says exactly that the island of the west get sorted by square mile.

>>96283915
Each splat really needs its own dedicated omnibus collecting short stories regarding certain themes of the splat. And no, the blurbs at the beginings of chapters don't count.

>>96259058 (OP)
Anyone played Exalted Essence? Would you tell a newbie to Exalted to play Essence over any other Edition?

>>96286630
Yeah, it's not my favorite thing but it's alright, and I probably would tell a newbie to Exalted to play Essence over any other Edition.

>>96286851
Thanks. I'll make my campaign in that instead of the abomination I was thinking. It definitely seems easier to spoonfeed than 2E's 10-steps of combat or whatever 3E has got going on.

>>96286866
Essence has roughly the same 10 steps as in 2e, with the caveat that you can only ever use one charm per step (bar a scarce number of exceptions).

>>96286883
Hmm. Anyone found a good way to cut it down or is it up to me to do so? I don't think these guys have the will to stick around for learning this stuff, even if I print flashcards for them. I'm trying to pull my wargaming group into Exalted and I'm certain as soon it hits a bump we're going back to bastardized battletech.

>>96286901
My bad, its 8 steps. I suppose you could tellthem that you really only focus on half the steps depending on whether you are the attacker or the defender.

>>96286932
I'll have a read of Essence. I've still got time before I run them through char-gen next week. Hopefully its quick enough I can get it done in the time we set up the table. Definitely going to be playing loose with the rules so I don't turn them off so quickly.

>>96286866
The 10 steps aren't really a big deal. It's like Offense/Defense passing back and forth between declare, roll, reroll for 6 of those steps.

>>96286488
I am pretty sure you can do better by just pointing to wikisource, a lot entered the public domain in these 20 years since 1e's publication. everything you need is there, once I even found a translation of an ancient Roman book about infrastructure.

>>96287056
>>96286488
For example, here a random tale from weird tales, it can be used as a source of inspirations for games set in the south or the scavenger lands.

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Weird_Tales/Volume_8/Issue_2/The_Monster-God_of_Mamurth#