Thread 96261987

awakened animal Edition
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>>96239816
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>Anders Mage Page
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>White Wolf Wiki:
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>Thread Question:
how much horror is there actually at your table?

Does anyone have the new Curseborne manuscript for the revised vampires? Or at least can someone let me know how much changed?

>>96261987 (OP)
>how much horror is there actually at your table?
depends on splat. Humans and Vampires often go through the ringer, but a werewolf pack is going to eat the face of anything trying to give them a fright.

I would like to try that vampire the masquerade game but for werewolves, I read somewhere that a specific type of werewolf can randomly go crazy if they abuse one specific ability on higher levels and it sounded cool.

>>96262087
What?

had a dream where I desperately tried to explain how everything is simply information and how this let's me teleport by simply transferring myself or downloading myself at another location and man was it frustrating having to constantly explain this people while they gave me this dumb look like they thought I was just spouting bullshit despite this just being science.
anyways I think I understand the pain of being a mage now, like the normies will deny it works even when you do it in front of them!

>>96262087
>I would like to try that vampire the masquerade game but for werewolves

it's called werewolf: the apocalypse

>I read somewhere that a specific type of werewolf can randomly go crazy if they abuse one specific ability on higher levels and it sounded cool.

You are confused, the Garou can be born deformed and demented i they are the spring of purebreed. Maybe you misheard that.

>>96262110
>dumdept predictably unsuccessfully trying to use blatancy

>>96262120
the Harry Potter woof is actually scary and makes you want to run away in terror while the van helsing one is just hot and makes you want to get knotted

so objectively the potter woof is better from a horror perspective

>>96262110
You are not wrong but also you do not understand it well, otherwise you would explain it so even a dumb person would understand.

>>96262120
>e4cb13270f873f3404.jpg
fag metis vs chadow lord

>>96262129
I got an erection from reading that, I hate you

>>96262120
The guy becoming the werewolf is also probably a factor. Virgin-wolf was a scrawny wizard teacher and thus became a scrawny woof.

>>96262130
Doesn't work for "Enlightened Genius", because mages don't actually understand anything. Mages force reality to comply with their schizo delusions rather than work with it.

>>96262012
>Does anyone have the new Curseborne manuscript for the revised vampires?
I'll send it to NewVola for you

>Or at least can someone let me know how much changed?
I can give you a run down of this though so you know what to look at

>General fluff changes
The willing prey thing has been entirely excised, Hungry can feed from corpses now, each Family gets different types of fangs, they cut that whole section about Lazarus and added in some that's more relevant

>Lineage mechanic changes
Feeding got a big overhaul. There are now explicit penalties for what happens if you don't feed and more mechanics around the act, and it gets harder to do the more Entanglement you have. There is also a unique option per Major Path so all the Families get their own mechanics for their methods

Nocturnal Predator is a little more punishing. You're always Exposed in the day but still only start taking damage if you're uncovered

Undead Strength is basically the same, still +1 Enhancement in physical/social/mental or regen 1 for 1 bane but the banes are now categories. It's still the same breadth of banes they're just now in elements, folklore, or faith and have examples of how the status they can apply. You can also choose to make an existing bane affect you from further away

Boundless Hunger was changed so that you have to feed twice now, and they have a third Torment that makes social interactions with mortals harder

>Family changes
Ascetics don't feed on animals anymore and are more clear. Black Hearts are much clearer about what their whole deal really is. Gaki got that bit about eating other Hungry removed and replaced with a section about how they hunt ghosts, and their Inheritance is different. The Heirs are about the same but Carmilla has the right name now. Vorare got a lot more refinement to pitch their thing. They all got some extra lines of flavour too and the text tightened

All Attributes, Skills, and Motifs have been altered too so that's worth looking into

>>96262110
Adept moment

How does the Baali re-embrace work actually? Do you fully become Baali or do you just stay whatever clan you were but you get Daimonion.

>>96262606
You replace one of your in-clan disciplines with Daimonion.
The Presence+Obfuscate+Daimonion spread is for 'mainline' Baali directly descended from their founders.

>New player for a short Mage: the Ascension chronicle
>This is how we recruit new players. We invite them for a one-shot or three session max chronicle and see if we vibe
>Says she's in the mood to fight nazis
>Okay cool
>Draft up a story about mages getting recruited by an Etherite adventurer to go down the Hollow Earth and prevent nazis from using mcguffin to go back to the surface
>Session one, player crosses her arms in an "X" sign
>"This is very triggering for me. Can we have a different adventure?"
>Remind her that she was the one who said she wanted to fight nazis
>"No I meant like modern nazis like trump and elon musk and the KKK"
>Also goes on a rant about how it's "icky" and "suspicious" that I portray nazis as being successful enough to have their own underground cities
>Politely ask her to leave and tell her my group is not the right one for her
I know that "le mage is le political game" but holy shit political brainrot is through the fucking roof.

>>96262708
Thankfully I've never encountered a player so extreme and blatant in their "I want to indulge a fantasy of beating up pathetic strawmen of my irl political opponents", but I can understand and sympathize with the negative experience. I certainly have seen those types of people but I'd never invite them to the table. How well did she hide her power level before she revealed her true colors? It's sad to say but I'd probably take a new player requesting that we "fight nazis" as a red flag.

My own group is composed of IRL friends and we only really recruit from IRL friends, but even we've had to back off of modern games somewhat. I noticed a tendency to skirt around contemporary issues a lot for fear of starting an actual political argument. Which depending on the story can be fine, but not all and I do sometimes have a (somewhat unfounded) fear it'll explode and break the group up. I like historical games don't get me wrong, but I lament the growing inability to have frank and honest discussion about contemporary events.

>>96262618
>Daimonion
Meh discipline is meh.

>>96262708
At first I was thinking about like "Well, that's not exactly a real plot hole. The underground nazis are obviously stealing underground minerals and resources from overground non-nazi peoples to fund their own cities and of course trading some with the technocracy who are the modern nazis.

But then I was thinking on how someone like that would react to Atrocity Realm, and the Shadowlands, and the Technocracy in general. Nah, good on you for kicking her out.

>>96262708
Tell them I said they were a faggot

>>96262012
thanks anon i wouldn't have checked my backerkit if not for your post

also nice a list on how these guys all feed, how often hungry need to feed and rolls for all different family meals, but i am not sure i like how some of the rolls become harder the higher your entanglement is

>>96263273
Basically every CofD monster gets more punishment with more potency to be fair.

>>96263379
fair, but i am it's still not a fan because i feel like the higher punishment would be better in the banes they get from undead strenght or something and not in the feeding because they also already bleed more cursedice the higher their entanglement is if they fail to feed that session

which can end up with your character going all the way to zero and damnation then one of the damnations then can force you to do nothing till your feed both on blood and your family meal and if you roll bad there too... well it's thematic i guess and i feel like i might be blowing it out of proportions especially right now where entanglement does not go that high, but i feel like this could lead to some awkwardness ingame especially if they keep that up for the tier 2 and 3 books

>>96263432
This is 1-2 extra difficulty across an entire chronicle as it stands. Further punishments and twists in the template at the higher tiers will likely happen and be more significant than a few extra needed hits here and there. I'm generally for ways to lose Curse Dice though as they're really easy to accrue in the first place.

>>96263460
i like it for the hungry because they feel like they should be in flux a lot and their spells are more often about spending instead of holding

i feel like for other families it might be more annoying. but while it's weird and out of place for this general given the state of wod and cofd books i kinda trust these writers that they won't screw up too much because while i didn't liked the original manuscript all that much the two families' revised write up improved much in the way i wanted

I haven't seen this posted here in some time so I'll post it

>>96263511
I don't think the other Lineages get something like this from what we've seen of them.

>>96261987 (OP)
Bill Morgan's Monkey?!

>>96262130
Describe a color to me.

There was a bait thread on the catalog that actually got me thinking a bit: how much do you you guys use Social stuff like Charisma or Subterfuge versus just roleplaying it out?

>>96263629
i try to use the rollplay as a major factor to decide the difficulty of the roll

but sometimes you don't want to roleplay out every single conversation (especially when it's like 5 hours into the session) and sometimes a argument is so good and mutually beneficial that i don't think you need roll anything

>>96263629
>how much do you you guys use Social stuff like Charisma or Subterfuge versus just roleplaying it out?
It's inconsistent, sometimes people can't come up with a decent argument irl so they just roll. Sometimes people who have good irl arguments decide to roll anyway because their character has the sociability of a door and they feel it's fair they play the downsides of their builds.

>looking at campaign notes
>100 cammies
>200 anarchs
>80 true Sabbat
>60 wolves
>several hundred kinfolk
>3 changelings
>1 unbound demon
>The Church
>government glowies involved
>also the Technocracy is here

I am worried maybe I’m biting off more than I can chew but I’ve already made major characters for all these groups some of which are established from a previous campaign. Either way I think this might get a bit crazy.

>>96263738
What could possibly go wrong?

>>96262708
None of this happened

>>96262708
When you typed this story, you probably thought of yourself as witty and powerful, a cunning mind hiding in a thin veil your support for orange hitler and the felon muskrat.

I pity you, I say this to every nazi supporter but I specially mean it to you.

You legit worship those two piece of shit, small time, powerless monsters.

>>96264192
>worship
you can't be putting words in people's mouth mang

>>96262708
you can't be thinly veiled defending nazis like that mang

>>96263738
Just drop an antidiluvian in the middle to make everybody shit their pants and then you don't have to worry about faction consistency that much. Worked for White Wolf.

>>96262708
fake (didn't happen) and gay (playing Mage)

>>96264192
>Anon bitter they got kicked out
Get off the internet anon. You're ruining your life sitting on a political bandwagon full of people that hate you and each other.

>>96264192
Trump is a democrat using the republican party for votes. Obama deported more people and killed more children in the middle east.

How many Vigor dots do I need to kill people by spitting ball bearings and throwing coins?

>>96264719
Enough to kill them with a raw strength + vigor roll that does bashing damage.
So however much you need for 14 successes.

>>96264719
I think throwing might always use Dexterity for attack rolls and Strength would only increase damage by making heavier objects available.

>>96262052
Try eating an Assamite sometime. They curse themselves so anyone that eats them generally suffers.

>>96262133
You got an erection from reading "zoophilebait fucks you in the ass"?

>>96263629
RP is a prerequisite of even attempting a social roll. The roll is a measure of the other party's reaction to the rp. Just because it's rock-solid, doesn't mean it always works, particularly with the stubborn or stupid.

Are there any vampires that can walk in daylight?

>>96265390
SHUT UP ABOUT GLOCUNDA

So I'm playing v5 and I'm thinking about making a hecata, I'm trying to come up with a touchstone. I was thinking about possibly having my mother be a touchstone, she's been kept alive by necromancy, my character chooses to believe she's still the same woman from years ago but obviously that's not the case.

Would you allow that in a campaign or should I go a different route

>>96265390
VTM: I think maybe some thinbloods can? Also possibly one of the eight billion "maybe" effects of Golconda. Also I'm pretty sure there was some thaumaturgy 10 ritual tucked away in the annals of 1e that let you walk in the sun. Probably a few other obscure elder/methuselah powers.

VTR: Sunlight does way less damage if you've got low blood potency and decent humanity. To the point you could offset the damage with some blood, the issue would be frenzy more than anything. Mitigating factors like overcast days and indirect sunlight reduce effective blood potency by 1, and if you hit 0 you take no damage at all. So under the right circumstances you could pull off a no damage, no frenzy day walk.

>>96265390
Yes, Tremere had a ritual that made vampire immune to sunlight("Temporary", but lasts for decades).
>>96265419
You don't know what golconda does do you?
Hint: it doesn't make you immune to sunlight.

>>96265485
>in the annals of 1e
Not even. The level 10 disciplines were revealed in 2e in multiple books. It wasn't until revised that antes suddenly became unknowable gods with infinite power.

>>96265390
Mytherceria 8

>>96265499
>Hint: it doesn't make you immune to sunlight.
Nta and I haven't looked into Golconda in any great detail, but from what I once glanced in Illumination and am now looking up again...

>Halfway down the hall, Eliza stopped. She didn’t have the courage to continue and asked - Are you going to the light? What are you going to do?
>Well, some of us have to test. I need the answer. I’ve been trying for centuries and this is my chance. - Ulfgar said. - If I destroy myself, it was good to meet you, my friend.
>Ulfgar took his last steps into the light and closed his eyes. Eliza glimpsed the light touching her friend’s body for a few seconds without even a burn. Smoke does not come out of your body, nor fire. Gangrel held out his hand to her and they both felt the light and warm touch of the sun. The sensation was unique, pleasant and indescribable.
>It was true. Golconda was achieved and they were both free from their curse.
...I think it does?

>>96265540
Anon, the novels are the absolute Worst place to read about anything related to the actual games.
Golconda does 3 things:
>Quiets the beast
No frenzy or rotschrekt, ever.
>Lower blood requirements
You only need to spend a blood point to wake up every week rather than every night.
>Uncapped Potential
No more generation limits on traits. You can buy everything up to 10, but blood pool/spending doesn't change

A vampire in golconda does not become immune to sunlight/fire/true-faith, return to life, or stop requiring blood altogether.

>>96265574
>Anon, the novels are the absolute Worst place to read about anything related to the actual games.
It wasn't an outright novel, just the small story at the start of "Illumiation: Guide to Golconda" (should have probably spelled out the whole name). Still very useful to know fhough, thank you.

Assuming that the Guide is reliable (which might be too much of an assumption, idk), and doing a Ctrl+F of sunlight...


>Benefits: There are possible benefits that vampires can receive by reaching Golconda through Humanity. It is up to the Storyteller what benefits the characters must receive.

>Possibility to walk in the sunlight;
>Consumption of only one blood point per week;
>The loss of the limits imposed by the Generation;
>The loss of clan weakness;
>The possibility to choose to return to be a human;

What source would you recommend for looking up Golconda?

>>96265620
The latest(V20) version is in "The Black Hand: Guide to the TalMaHeRa"(not to be confuse with Dirty secrets of the Black Hand, a god-offal supplement for early editions).

>>96265620
>"Illumiation: Guide to Golconda"
That's an STV book anon. It's a 3rd party book that has no bearing on vtm canon.

>>96262736
>How well did she hide her power level before she revealed her true colors?
I'd say fairly well. She did wear rainbow flag bracelets but we genuinely didn't think anything of it.
Members of the group met her while playing MtG.
>>96262764
I don't think she was worried about the premise being a plot hole. She simply disliked the idea of nazis being competent.
>>96264192
But none of those things are true. I'm not even american.

>>96265485
In older editions it looks like thinbloods still have to deal with sunlight but i know in v5 there is a merit that just makes it so you just temporarily lose half your health and cant use any vampiric abilities in sunlight.

>>96265645
>The latest(V20) version is in "The Black Hand: Guide to the TalMaHeRa"(not to be confuse with Dirty secrets of the Black Hand, a god-offal supplement for early editions).
He says, while proffering the ultimate shit-'offal' supplement that doubled down on every perceived fault of DSBH and added more.

>>96265645
>That's an STV book anon
...Again? I keep mixing them up.

Thank you, anon. I'd have completely missed that otherwise.

STV was a mistake

>>96265472
I wouldn't allow a ghost or ghoul to be a touchstone unless you add some complications tied to their condition. Like the mother having a terminal disease and is only kept alive by Vitae or a Necromancer rival who could reasonably be expected to fuck with your ghost buddy.
Also how are you keeping someone alive via necromancy?

>>96265732
Eh, it's got a lot of crap on it but that's par for the course with fan content. There's some really good books on STV honestly.

>>96265662
>She simply disliked the idea of nazis being competent.
Did she not understand that the nazi's were fucking Winning WW2, in effectively a 1 VS everyone else, for the first half of the war? The fact the nazi's were highly competent is Why they were able to be as monstrous as they were.
This player is fucking retarded.

>>96265390
>Are there any vampires that can walk in daylight?
What are Thin Bloods, Revenants, Dhampirs, Kuei-Jin and Necromancers?

>>96264754
Would I need a Devotion to inflict Lethal damage with small thrown objects?

>>96265390
Tremere.
My favourite way is not quite direct, though. I often play pagans following Veles (the book calls him Telyavel, but that's just Vampire writers being ignorant idiots as always, from the description it's clearly Veles/Velas/Velinas/Velnias, Balto-Slavic ancient overgod of nature and death, prosperity and magic), so Touch the Protector's Mind is the the natural ritual to pick, and it gets you day-walking and immunity to all but most direct, unobstructed sunlight. Needless to say that Tremere have ways to ensure cloudy weather.

It's strictly for the faithful, though, since you get a boon from the god, and ritual merely opens up the connection. Anyone believing in Voodoo or Abrahamic crap will likely get their soul burned out.

>>96265830
Most people would probably says a Vigour 2 or 3 devotion. Hell, I'm pretty sure it could be a Combat Style because everything and their mum is a Combat Style.

>>96265759
Good question I just realized there's no real book on necromancy for v5, unless I'm mistaken...

>>96262114
>V:tM but for werewolves
>W:tA

But not actually. W:tA doesn't revolve around concepts of slow degeneration, but quick and dirty consequences of violence, from injury and perpetuation of vengeance cycles to people just dying even though they were hyped up to be champions. Direct conflict is nonetheless encouraged in spite of the consequences, making it highly likely that your characters will die, but will also likely take down an awful lot of the opposition.

There is no immortality other than being an ancestor-spirit. You are not going to opine about some tragic, endless hunt. It is not even remotely the same game, for a different monster.

>if they are the spring of pure breed

No, it's when two Garou have a kid. This occurs even among Bone Gnawers.

Honestly I've never understood the immense hate the Black Hand Books get. Don't get me wrong, I don't love them, but honestly there's worse books out there. I think there's actually a lot of interesting ideas in them, the issue lies in the execution.

For example, the idea of older, more exclusive conspiracies within the extant Sects is an interesting one. Secret societies within secret societies, it's fun stuff conceptually. The issue is that both the True Black Hand and the Inconnu don't quite pass the vibe check. Another is in the weird bloodlines. Nagaraja are just fun, I enjoy an example of someone else pulling a Tremere and magically usurping vampirism. That they screwed it up horribly and got an incredibly rough curse as a result is great. Trujah are an interesting concept, a lineage usurped in the earliest nights is a cool idea. Their issues are more the result of the reputation they garner for their unique and out there discipline not to mention the kind of player that attracts.

I'd even go so far as to say that there is some merit to Vicissitude as a disease. The glaring issue there is that Tzimisce were already playable, so this retroactively takes agency away from any Tzimisce someone had played. I'd argue the plotline was somewhat repurposed in Vicissitude being a vector for The Eldest to control its childer. I also like the idea of an anti-vic Tzimisce bloodline, even if they're a tiny minority that's coping like mad.

>>96264719
>>96265910
>baby wants to be akashic

>>96265931
There is the player's guide and hecata books.

>>96265783
Revenants arent vampires, theyre hereditary ghouls
Kuei jin rot in the sun
Thinbloods burn in the sunlight for the most part

>>96265674
To be fair, the only coherent diablerie and golconda rules are in that books, so it's pretty split between good shit and utter garbage. In WoD, that's a high bar unfortunately.

>>96265960
Original BH book is decent if you ban Age Background, Mage Companion Merit and Temporis Discipline. New one is so inexcusably dogshit it belongs to a dumpster fire.

>>96265645
The latest Golconda rules are in the V20 corebook, that book only have the rules on how to get to golconda(why the writers separated them, I have no fucking clue).

Could a Mage use a spell to allow a Vampire to walk in the sun?
I'm thinking Correspondence + Forces to essentially make a force field that displaces sunlight away from the Vampire's pattern.

>>96266067
Cease spreading misinformation, there were coherent diablerie and golconda guidelines since the first edition.

>>96266094
that would probably work but I guess you could always pull out the matter+entropy+prime spell and just heal them faster than they burn :)

A fairly cool section from DAV20: France by Night about the Followers of Lilith doing Lilith shit

>>96265574
>You can buy everything up to 10
Was it for everything including Disciplines, or just for stuff like Strength, Wits, etc?

>>96266001
More like "baby wants to be Bullseye", I guess I'll just combine Vigor and Celerity to kill people with paperclips from around a corner.

Does the Embrace destroy the Avatar or does it just send it back to the reincarnation cycle?
Because if it's the former, shouldn't a group of Nephandi-hunters have a friendly vampire in their ranks to embrace and then immediately kill any nephasickfuck they capture? It'd be way easier than gilgul.

>>96266340
Potence/Vigor is valid. I spat small rocks as a gargoyle, like hard fruit pits, but spat at mach fuck. It's inferior to just slinging normal stones (nice helmet there, squish-misce noght wannabe), but cool.

>>96266372
Destroy, and the technique is valid. Mind you that their sphere proficiency translates to potentially nasty disciplines, so do be extra careful even with fully immobilised one.

>>96266372
>>96266422
Also certain mages frown on vampire liaisons, like fireball to the face no questions asked frown. And vampires tend to be backstabbing cunts, ESPECIALLY those pretending higher moral ground, so choose well and still secure their allegiance with oath and blood contract. For their own good as well.

>>96266220
>Was it for everything including Disciplines
Yes. You could have level 10 disciplines as a thinblood if you achieve golconda

>>96265499
actually it does make you immune to light

V5 has a golconda loresheet and the 5 dot power lets you walk in the sun for a day

What is a better time to do a vampire chronicle in the US: at the start of WW1 or at the end of WW2?

>>96266891
>V5
So it's not mentioned anywhere important then?

>>96266928
Depends if you want the running theme to be the overwhelming depression and nihilism that punctuated the war, the following roaring 20's, Prohibition, the great depression, etc, or the spark of hope that preceded the red-invasion and following media, entertainment, and education capture of america by enemy nations.

>>96266891
>>96266988
1e Golconda had an option where you turn human, but keep disciplines you had. And you have to activate them with willpower points, and you can't use blood anymore.

The point is very moot anyway since Golconda by design and intention is opposite to powergaming, and you're supposed to retire character upon reaching it, not try to outwank antediluvians.

>>96262708
Could be worse, she could have been the girlfriend of one of your best players and cause a very bad breakup right in the middle of a session....ugh

>>96266150
Your daily reminder that Lilith deserved everything happened to her.

>>96262708
Sucks for her, that chronicle sounds like a ton of fun. Good strategy for screening out the weirdos Anon.
>>96263738
My multi-year long chronicle is hitting that point, the players decided to throw their hands in the air and call in the big guns because with this much chaos going on in the city the prince has to be held accountable for masquerade problems.
Hence, there's now a Justicar about to put her heeled foot down and start the decapitations.

>>96262708
Normally I'd call you an attention seeking faggot but I have recently had a cocksucker do that because we were fighting a communist Tzimisce that's idea of communism was everyone being equal in government slavery
>YOU VOTED FOR BERNIE WHY BREAK YOUR MORALES TO OUR PEOPLE
Actually came from his mouth
Fuck me
Shit like this makes me want to curl up and die when I remember campaigning and taking donations for Beanies presidential race
8k
8 fucking k stolen for a 2nd vacation house and a private jet
If a Saturday morning cartoon vampire is to much for you to handle don't play Wod

>>96267451
Sorry for the poor quality post, I'm genuinely upset only remembering the situation.

>>96267079
>you're supposed to retire character upon reaching it
The fuck you aren't. The game has rules for characters in golconda for a reason, take your miserywank somewhere else.

>>96267079
>powergaming
I keep seeing people use this word in a derogatory fashion, do you anons not know the difference between powergamers, min/maxers, and munchkins?
>Powergamers
are just players who want to player a powerful or important character. They aren't "That Guy", they just have zero interest playing a 7-11 employee.
>Min/maxers
are were problems begin to start. They're the players that stick to the letter of the rules rather than the spirit and ignore most roleplay in order to become as powerful as possible.
They tend get really annoying with rule-lawyer nonsense, but are still rational enough that you can talk them down or work them into the game with effort.
>Munchkin
These are the irredeemable "That Guys". They blatently break the rules and disrupt the game in order to be the most powerful thing in the universe. Their ego can't allow them to have anything less than any power every written, 100% of the good loot, and to be able to kill God Allmighty. Kick these players, they aren't worth the time.

Labelling all of the above under the same category and calling them "Vampions" is one of the things that caused original WoD to crash and burn during revised

>>96264615
Yes anon you finally get it!
many people ruin their lives by joining the maga cult
I am glad you came to your senses

>>96267573
>Still not understanding the majority of people aren't part of a two-cult binary
I would have thought you people would have an easier time understanding there are more than two options. Seems I was wrong.

So I played old revised vtm a few years ago, but someone in my group expressed interest in a v5 (I think that's the term for the new stuff) game recently and I've just started to dig in a bit but don't have any books. So far the things that have most thrown me for a loop is that the Sabbat seem totally defanged, and what remains are just meant to 100% an antagonist npc faction, and it seems like the anarchs are way more important, and the little I've read makes me suspicious that they're almost being portrayed as "vampire good guys" - am I wrong? What does anon think?

>>96267759
>am I wrong?
Nope. The writers tried to "Return to their roots" with V5, so it's set in the early-1e paradigm of NPC-only sabbat, Anarchs are the designated good-guy faction, and the camarilla are just elitist assholes.
Problem is, none of that shit is what made 1e good and not only did they keep everything that made WoD fail during revised, they doubled-down and made it worse. Shitpire misery-wank is the only available playstyle in V5 core and they nuked most of the cool parts of the setting.
>someone in my group expressed interest in a v5
Just tell him straight up, it's not worth his or your time. It takes a lot of house-rules and metaplot changes to make V5 fun. You can't port-forward anything cool from previous editions into V5, while the few interesting parts of it are easily back-ported to any previous edition.
>TL;DR:
It's complete shit

>>96267548
OWoD forces minmaxing, you aren't obligated to perfect efficiency, but you'll screw yourself of more than a hundred xp and hopelessly fall behind more savvy players and become a dead weight if you don't keep grievous chargen-progression disparity and don't keep at least a couple of useful skills in mind. Especially when you're playing high stakes, high pressure, high mortality Werewolf or Mage campaign where every player has an important role, both mechanical and roleplaying, to deliver on.

Likewise, players might have preference for different power levels and game themes, but 'powergamer' is what thatguys, munchkins and WAAC cunts call themselves because they want to be the overwhelmingly powerful, the most important guys, they disrupt the game and misinterpret the rules to their advantage and they can't stomach a loss or setback, even temporary.

>>96267856
>powergamer' is what thatguys, munchkins and WAAC cunts call themselves
They started to call themselves that to obfuscate the fact that they're that-guys, and ended up poisoning the word. Now a large portion of the ttrpg community is lumped in with the type of person to throw tantrums at 30 because the ST won't let them take infernal pacts and true faith at the same time.

>>96267822
Ah interesting, thanks. Turning the Sabbat into a bunch of ooga-booga MMO monsters to kill is such a waste - basically making what other vampires see them as into the reality is too simple; I really liked them back when we were playing revised. And any 'good guy' vampire group is just cringe.

>>96267856
>Especially when you're playing high stakes, high pressure, high mortality Werewolf or Mage campaign
Anon, saying you need to optimize more for a high-power campaign is just stating the obvious. Complaining about that is like going into a High-PO elder-evils 3.5 campaign and complaining that your truenamer is useless, it's self-inflicted.
Neither Woof or Mage require you to play a high-powered campaign, there are plenty of options for lighter or slower adventures. If you want to play a lower power campaign with more room for roleplay, just play one.

>>96266059
But they can all of them can* walk in the sun.

>>96266059
>Kuei jin rot in the sun
Not if they're yang-cycled. Unfortunately, doing that makes every metal object(including bullets) act as stakes to them, makes them magnets for diseases, and lowers their inhibitions.

Wasn't there a fansplat for playing as magical girls? Anyone ever play it? Was it good?

>>96268224
Princess the Hopeful is a very jank game, iirc Crystal edition was the most playable out of the bunch but I don't know all that much about it.

>>96267925
>a large portion of the ttrpg community
Very few players care much for optimization and making sure they play someone "powerful".

>>96268338
>Very few players care much for optimization
True
>and making sure they play someone "powerful"
Objectively False.
Most players in ttrpgs play chosen-one style main characters that sit at the center of the plot. D&D is the world's most popular RPG for a reason anon, and this was also true of WoD when it was the second most popular ttrpg in the world.
Powergaming=/=Optimization. The people who care about optimization are min/maxers, it's literally in the name.

>>96268392
>The people who care about optimization are min/maxers
Granted, it's pretty well established that oldbeard terminology is irrecoverably poisoned. Most STs/GMs/etc hear "powergamer" and immediately think of munchkins rather than a player that just wants to be a respectable, emotionally-mature ancillae rather than an angsty neonate.

>>96268392
>Objectively False.
Go ahead and prove it then.

>>96268392
>Most players in ttrpgs play chosen-one style main characters that sit at the center of the plot.
All games center around the players. This does not make them "Chosen-one style main characters" or anything close to it, most systems don't even have any mechanics for such a thing.
>D&D is the world's most popular RPG for a reason anon,
...And it does the opposite of what you're claiming? The most popular class in D&D is and has always been one of the objectively weakest classes. And the most popular subclasses are also some of the weakest possible options.
D&D is also a game where you're almost always fighting something stronger than your own character and that you can only bring down through teamwork.
It's fact that most people just don't care about being powerful. They just have an idea they want to execute.

>Powergaming=/=Optimization. The people who care about optimization are min/maxers
Frankly these all mean the same thing just to different degrees of seriousness and antisocial behavior. A munchkin who will break rules and badger the ST for shit is trying to play as powerful a character as he can, just like the powergamer. The difference is that a powergamer (per your definition, I just call them optimizers) stay within the bounds of the game rules and are socially aware enough to, usually, understand when something will cause problems for the table. Though they often end up causing problems anyways.

>>96268532
>This does not make them
I'll take "What is an inclusive statement" for $500
Anon, I was saying player prefer to be both those things, not that one required the other.
If I said most people prefer brownies fresh out of the oven with icecream on the side, does that mean all brownies come out of the oven covered in icecream? Fuck No.
>And it does the opposite of what you're claiming?
Anon, the majority of NPCs are level 1 peasants(a class so weak players can't take it) with an all-10's stat spread. D&D goes out of its way to make players into once in a generation heroes. Did you not read the DMG?
>Frankly these all mean the same thing just to different degrees of seriousness and antisocial behavior.
Not really, no. If think that, then I can only assume you can't perceive breakfast or visualize the apple.

>>96268532
>I just call them optimizers
I think this is the fundamental difference that isn't getting across. The old-beard definition of powergamer has absolutely nothing to do with optimization.
Optimizers are min-maxers, full-stop
Powergamers are just people that want to feel powerful and important in the story, which is what most people play D&D for. They want to kill the dragon in a world where most people can't do that. That is a powerful character.
That's the part where communication is breaking down, one is saying powergamer, and you're immediately jumping to "Person who does mechanical optimization" even though it's been said multiple times that isn't what is meant.

>>96268702
>Anon, I was saying player prefer to be both those things
They don't though.
>not that one required the other.
That's cool, I wasn't arguing it did.
>If I said [nonsequitur and false equivalency]
That's some neat irrationales there schizoanon, but this has no bearing on the discussion at hand.
>Anon, the majority of NPCs are level 1 peasants
This isn't true either, unless you consider "NPCs" to be population demographics instead of, y'know, actual characters. But such demographics also don't exist in the current edition, so your point is founded on... Well, nothing at all but your vague feelings.
>D&D goes out of its way to make players into once in a generation heroes.
It really doesn't. Your comparison here is like saying that a game where the party are all playing americans working middle class jobs is a game about playing main character chosen ones, because most of the world aren't middle class americans. It's just nonsense, sorry.
>Not really, no
Ya rly, and you're proving my point on that pretty succinctly.

>>96268728
No need to double reply, I fully understood what you meant. What doesn't get across to powergamers is that they aren't actually that different from their fellow annoying players just because they don't instantly sperg out.
>Powergamers are just people that want to feel powerful and important in the story, which is what most people play D&D for. They want to kill the dragon in a world where most people can't do that. That is a powerful character.
This has *never* been what Powergamer meant, but I'll accept this definition. Because then we can definitively say almost nobody likes to powergame, or else something like Exalted or Mythic level 3.X would be the most popular ways by which to play. Instead almost nobody touches either, and even D&D is mostly played at levels 1-3 where it feels like rusty dagger shanktown.

>>96268772
>D&D is mostly played at levels 1-3 where it feels like rusty dagger shanktown
The fuck kind of backwards gameshops and conventions do you play at? I've literally never seen this and 90% of 5e tables I've ever run with have skipped to levels 3-5 because that's when players get their subclass features fully unlocked.
Where are you from, the fucking Moon?!?

>>96268772
>Mythic level 3.X
Mythic is pathfinder. The 3.X equivalent is Epic.

>>96268812
Pathfinder is 3.X.

>>96268772
>This has *never* been what Powergamer meant
A guy who knows what basement DMs actually said in the 90's, yes that is what it used to mean. You fucking magic box isn't the end-all-be-all of gaming culture.

>>96268803
>The fuck kind of backwards gameshops and conventions do you play at? I've literally never seen this and 90% of 5e tables I've ever run
90% of 0 is 0.

>>96268816
Pathfinder is D20. That's like saying starwars D20 or Midnight D20 is 3.x

>>96268834
Pathfinder is 3.X, nogames.

>>96268825
Do You play games anon? You sound disconnected from reality.
(I will admit finding anything other than 5e is a headache though).

>>96268803
>The fuck kind of backwards gameshops and conventions do you play at?
Apparently, real ones. I'm also just going by objective statistical fact instead of "vibes" as you do.
>I've literally never seen this
You've never seen a game played from levels 1-3? I guess you really haven't played then. Sorry, this conversation is for people who play games.

>>96268842
>nogames
I love how anons say this the moment someone points out how obviously wrong they are. Clear projection.
When was your last session anon? Mine was sunday at 4:23 eastern

>>96268823
>No this word means what I and my two friends thought it did when we lasted played, in 1994
You and your basement dwelling group can agree on the definition, the rest of the world will just move on.

>>96268842
>>96268848
>They immediately cry "No-Games" the moment anon is caught.
Kek

>>96268834
In what world do you think pathfinder was not a direct copy of 3.5e? It's literally nicknamed 3.75 lmao

>>96268865
>direct copy
They changed too much shit for the worse. The martial feat changes are bullshit and prestige classes are better than archetypes.

>>96268875
Ok, I accept your concession then.

>>96268882
I will never aknowledge Paizo as real D&D.
I will Die on this Hill!

>>96268891
Nobody cares, go sperg about it in your containment general faggot.

>>96268894
If you didn't want to attract spergs, why'd you bring up the D&D: sperg edition?

>>96268863
>>96268852
>>96268834
>>96268823
>>96268812
>Power gamers are not autistic antisocial retards like those damn min maxers and munchkins!
>And here's how I'll prove it!

>>96268896
Better question is why wouldn't everyone expect spergs when the insecure powerwankers started yapping

>>96268875
That's certainly an opinion. It doesn't change that it's basically the 3.5 SRD with some tweaks and a new setting. And that it only exists because a huge part of the community wanted nothing to do with 4E, and the licensing rule changes for 4E were unacceptable to Paizo and many others.

>>96268834
They were built using the 3.X SRD, there was a whole big thing about how the OGL enabled the creation of a ton of games using the SRD so people familiar with 3.X could easily get into other games built with it.

>>96268803
>The fuck kind of backwards gameshops and conventions do you play at? I've literally never seen this
Guess you don't play games then. Over 60% of them are level 1-4 games. Less than 11% of games ever get to or start at/above Level 11.
The most common type of player just wants to play some variation of Aragorn, Conan, or Gimli and say they roll to attack. Few people think about being powerful, whatever that even really means to you.

>>96268913
It's the d20 ogl they used npt the 3.X SRD

>>96268938
The OGL is just the license, the SRD is the actual rules framework document they used, dumbfuck.

>>96268950
The OGL is both and it's d20, not 3.X. It's even called the d20srd, not the 3.XSRD. Stay mad nigger.

>>96268961
Cope.

For 5e would the silk hat or the aspiring aziani be more useful?

Help me understand the Ahl-i-batin.
What's their endgame? What's their shared paradigm?

>>96261987 (OP)
That's a female.

>>96262110
>a Paradox Spirit just prevented anon from Awakening
oof

I want to start playing a CoD solo game but can't decide which splat I should play, so gar my favorits are demon, mumm, and chanhangeling. I want the game to focus on interactions with a large variety of creatures/splats and strange phenomena and set pieces, and I am Open for other splat suggestions. Pkv8v

>>96265620
I had a story teller that let my Malk become human again and then become a hunter.

>>96269376
Lost because you have a lot of good escape tools built in regardless of which edition you're running, saving you from bad ends that can easily occur in a solo RPG since you're one person.

(That and I don't know enough about demon or mummy to give a rec)

You are aware the Void Engineers are more than just Space Marines, aren’t you?

>>96269291
Fuck do you need to understand them for? They're shitty, boring inclusivity tradition whose special hat is being so dogshit nobody even remembers them in-setting.

If you really must play a middle easterner, pic Taftani. They're cool.

>>96269376
Start with Vigil, hands down the Vigil. It's the best intro game and the best for
>a large variety of creatures/splats and strange phenomena and set pieces

>>96269643
Oh I get the Taftani, and I like them quite a bit.
But part of the chronicle is going to take place in the Middle East and I need sources of conflict. At first I thought I could use batini mages as foes, but the more I read about them the less interesting they seem.
I was expecting to find Ottoman/Abbasid era muslim mystics seeking to bring a new islamic golden age throw subtle conquest and instead I found... weird humus-flavored universalists that don't do much except sometimes kill nephandi.

HtV Slasher campaign continued last night with a wonderful three-way party split, always a good time.

Last session after arriving minutes too late to prevent the Bodybagger from killing again, the players called it a night. Their occultist and librarian had been mauled by two dogs, and she needed to pick her daughter up and go to work. Sherman, our train conductor was thoroughly spooked and needed a break so he also went to work. Rebecca, a PE teacher, and Duncan, a safari hunter, didn't want to give up the chase. Thus, threeway party split.

Siobahn returned home to find that her young daughter had fallen down the stairs in the night and broken her ankle, spooked by something she didn't want to talk about. She took her to the hospital where a fresh Slasher was in the making. A Bouncer with a traumatic brain injury after afight outside a nightclub, he awoke from his coma and escaped, killing an orderly on the way out. While her daughter was being seen to, Siobahn spoke with a man who introduced himself as a detetctive. He's actually my BBEG Puppeteer, profiling the Bouncer.

Sherman worked the commuter trains and encountered a man and his wife with invalid tickets, they'd been out the night before drinking. He'd kept drinking until the sun rose, she hadn't and he was being a real piece of shit. She escaped from her husband when he was forcibly removed from the train and explained that she was trapped by him, he'd paid for her passport, her tickets from thailand, all of it. Sherman said he and a few of the men on the trainline would be happy to round and rough him up a bit, but she assured him it wouldn't be necessary. When she left, Sherman found a kitchen knife missing from the staff room canteen.

>Cont

>>96269647
>Vigil
>For a solo game

>>96263738
>200 anarchs

Just nuke it already

>>96269683
Duncan and Rebecca returned to the town dump, where the Bodybagger has his lair. They parked ontop of a manhole, knowing it was connected to his haunt. Unfortunately he had other means of egress. Having killed his two dogs in the previous session, the Bodybagger flew into a rage upon finding their corpses. After yelling and stomping about, he resolved to replace them. Everything is free for the taking when you're a muscle-bound freak with more strength than sense. He left and took a rubbish truck, driving for the animal pound through the early morning commute. Duncan and Rebecca followed a short distance behind.

They reached the Animal Shelter a few minutes after him, which is all it took. The receptionists head had been bent back until it touched their shoulder blades, their throat ruptured and splattered across laminated posters warning people not to feed strays. Duncan retreated and fetched his hunting rifle, moving into an adjacent field to set up a shot on the rubbish trucks cabin. Rebecca dialed 999 and moved into the Shelter. Two more dead bodies, blood still pumping. She could hear dogs and cats howling and barking, cages rattling. A pack of feral cats surged down the hallway, escaping through the front door, wild and unwanted dogs following. Then she saw him, the Bodybagger. Thickset, clad in a hi-vis vest and filthy, bloody trousers. His face bound tightly with binbags, a hole cut for one eye and another for a mouth filled with hooked and broken teeth. He was carrying a dog by its collar, hooked over one shoulder. Rebecca fled, running ouside she climbed into the car and backed it up as the man gave chase. Duncan didn't have a line of sight on him, hedges and the truck itself blocking his vision. He didn't see as Rebecca rammed the front door with Duncan's lovely saloon car, catapulting the killer back into the building. Duncan later shot him as he tried to slip out of a narrow window with his contortionist talent, but he survived, just.

>>96265778
No one born in the modern generation today likes to give people they hate credit where it's due. Your enemies have to be simultaneously abhorrent and omnipresent, but weak enough to use as punching bags to validate yourself. To acknowledge competence means acknowledging that they were people, and that you yourself could have made similar decisions in their shoes rather than using the logical shortcut that they're "born evil" in some manner. It's why the orange man's victories are incomprehensible for one side, while the other side continually misunderstands why feel-good narratives are so seductive.

I hate how I’ll probably die before I can get into a Geist game. There’s so many games I want to try, but every campaign I join usually takes over a year to complete. There’s just no way to play them all. And even if there’s time, there’s no guarantee that someone will want to run it, or that there’ll be people willing to play if you decide to ST it. And that’s not even mentioning different editions. It all feels so hopeless

>>96269786
I know that feel. There's a lot of splats I wish I could play - Geist among them. Hell, I wanna play a splatless base-WoD game sometime too.

>>96265778
No, they were not. In fact, they were cooked after Italy fell and the Axis was basically in the middle of everything. It certainly didn't help that they kept throwing massive resources into delusional wunderwaffen projects that were totally going to allow them to win.

Spoilers: the Ratte never materialized and the Maus was an over-engineered liability. About the only thing of value were the experimental rocket designs, which you can judge by the value of how von Braun got paperclipped. Not a whole lot of other German scientists from WW2 getting his level of star power, since the US netted Einstein and others before that and beat Germany to fielding nukes.

>>96269776

The Nazis were the ones who overestimated themselves first. Reality's cold grasp showed them otherwise time and again as they got mired in resistance post-"conquest" and believed all others inferior, right up until the two-front war had them hiding in bunkers. Hitler killed himself rather than deal with said reality.

>>96269817
Be that as it may, they were able to wage a pretty heavy war outnumbered 3-to-literally-everyone-else barely a few years after a previous World War where they had much more support and no pains on their economy from an unfair treaty, enough to be mythologized as the Satan of modern history. From a military standpoint, it wasn't something to sniff at - even if ultimately folly.

>>96269817
>The Nazis were the ones who overestimated themselves first.
If you read memoirs from the time you'd know this wasn't really true. They were pretty shocked when France capitulated as quickly as it did, and there were few who looked at the eastern front with any optimism beyond early Wehrmacht Generals who proceeded to fuck everything up.
I say specifically Wehrmacht Generals because the same fellows who made Fall Blau a mess disliked (and were in turn disliked by) Hitler and the Nazis. He regarded them as disobedient and difficult to control, they regarded him as wrong for not sticking to the tradition of letting the generals run the war as they saw fit. Stalin had similar problems early in the war, and the US had the same issues late in the war.

>>96269786
I ran a short Geist game. Alternating between "short" and "long" games is a good way to experience variety. My group is broadly a variety group, we do more than WoD (though it has been a while since we tried a completely new system) and have still managed to fit in multiple splats.

Just keep hanging in there, Anon.

>>96265778
Ehh, the Nazis we're winning up until they decided to open up a war with two fronts instead of focusing on finishing up France and Britain

It's the Classic European mistake, really

>>96269671
Main problem with Ottoman mages is that...well, they got dissolved and most likely, killed.
For example, when the Technocracy was getting created, Ottoman Technocrats basically fell to infighting.
And because Traditions are losers, they also didn't try to take their place because "imperialism reeeee", only Taftani was truly supporting them and even if they are cool and powerful, they are few and honestly, they are straight up savages, not really helpful to keeping the Empire alive.

Tremerebros, how can I learn this power?

>>96268338
that is actually wrong, most people like to optimize their character to be good at what they envision them to do.

stop playing with misery wank players

>>96270225
>most people like to optimize their character to be good at what they envision them to do.
This has nothing to do with being powerful.

Correct take: If you are not optimizing your character and are making them weak just so that you aren't labeled as a min-maxer/powergame, you are a shit player

Having an optimized/min-maxed character has no bearing on roleplay, in fact it makes for better roleplay, because there will be moments where you can shine and others where you will be shit out of luck, rather than just a mediocre jack of all trades

Specialized experts make for better characters, especially when playing with others

Correct take: If you care about optimization, you are a shit player.

>>96270254
no. if you don't care about optimization, you do not care about the game at all. you may well throw all the rules out and the "game" part and just tell free-form stories to each other.

maybe Fate is more your lane then

>>96270262
If you don't care about optimization, you aren't hyperfocused on the game's mechanics to the detriment of the character you're trying to play.
>you may well throw all the rules out and the "game" part and just tell free-form stories to each other.
I've done this but only with my closest friends, and it was the most fun any of us have ever had with tabletop games. You aren't making the point you think you're making.

>>96270254
A good player should be perfectly fine with telling the GM what they want to play and just having the GM make their character sheet (Following whatever character creation rules he pleases, if any).

I suggested this as a shit test for new players I didn't yet trust, and every time someone was hostile to the idea they later proved to be a problem player. It's been a useful vetting method for the last 8 years since the pattern was established.

>>96270276
optimizing doesn't mean hyperfocus on game mechanics, nice strawman.

roleplay and mechanics are largely orthogonal to each other, though the latter restricts the first. so, by playing an unoptimized character you restrict your roleplay, simply because you have a lower ceiling of what you can do

You are playing a socialite? I better see charisma/manipulation at 4 at chargen, along with at least 1 social skill + matching disciple. Same with combat. Same with being sneaky.

Mediocre characters are boring, restrictive. They don't have enough agency in the world to make good stories with.

Just pick up any adventure or fantasy book. The main char is always good at something and often has a glaring weakness. Min-maxed characters, make for interesting characters.

>>96270285
Absolutely awful GM style, I pity your players that put up with your fascist shit

>>96270242
>Having an optimized/min-maxed character has no bearing on roleplay
Hypothetically true.
>in fact it makes for better roleplay
This is where we veer off into falsehood. No, anon, powergaming does not result in better roleplay. All of the poor roleplayers I know are either drooling morons, or power gamers. Few if any of the good roleplayers I know are deeply invested in making mechanically powerful characters.

>>96270299
>Fascism is when you keep bad players out of your game
Can we get much lower than this?

>>96270310
Forcing characters onto your players just because you are paranoid about them making something that won't be able to stand up to an elder anyway is unhinged

A good GM cares about roleplay, not about how many dice their players roll. The game is not GM vs players.

You, as the GM, can make any combat or social encounter as difficult as you like. The min-maxed gangrel brawler slices through your fights like butter? So what, let him. It's what he made his char for and clearly enjoys doing. He will likely suck in social situations, and that's where you can make him sweat.

Only "That Guy" GMs worry about min/maxers. You should worry about bad roleplayers (which may come with min/maxing, but just as likely don't)

>>96270293
>optimizing doesn't mean hyperfocus on game mechanics
In principle no, in practice yeah it does.

>so, by playing an unoptimized character you restrict your roleplay, simply because you have a lower ceiling of what you can do
No, you don't, because what you can do is entirely up to the ST. If he decides you're going to fail your rolls, you will no matter how much you powergame. And if he decides he likes the new guy's not at all optimized collection of stats buried underneath the cool and fun character he's bringing forth, he'll make sure he succeeds and has a chance to shine.

>You are playing a socialite? I better see charisma/manipulation at 4 at chargen, along with at least 1 social skill + matching disciple. Same with combat. Same with being sneaky.
These are not optimizing, this is just consistency and base level "I read the rules" competence. Powergaming is not just making a character that has points in the things they should, but trying to make them as powerful as possible, anon.

>Mediocre characters are boring, restrictive. They don't have enough agency in the world to make good stories with.
Refer to the 2nd paragraph. The ST decides who has agency and who is restricted. What makes your character boring or not is entirely down to your roleplaying skills or lackthereof.

>The main char is always good at something and often has a glaring weakness. Min-maxed characters, make for interesting characters.
Min-maxed characters by definition have as many strengths as possible, and as few weaknesses as possible, so you contradict yourself.

>>96270322
>Forcing characters onto your players
Can you "force" a character onto someone if they bring you the idea, and you simply give them the mechanics for it? Can you really force anybody to play something they don't want to, since they can just find a different table?
I've thought about it, and no you cannot.

Anyways you fail the test, because like I said, I merely suggest it to new players. When they freak out over the mere idea as you did is when they fail.

>A good GM cares about roleplay, not about how many dice their players roll.
You were arguing that they should care about how many dice their players roll because it makes them roleplay better, now you're arguing there is no relation. Make up your mind, sped.

>The game is not GM vs players.
Then how many dice you roll shouldn't be important to you as a player.

>The min-maxed gangrel brawler slices through your fights like butter? So what, let him.
Hmm, well since the person playing such a thing started a fifteen minute argument over a minor rule interpretation, is creeping out one of the other players, and is either dead silent or overbearingly loud and obnoxious during anything that isn't combat, no I don't think I will. I think I'll just ask him to go find another group that will sate his power fantasy needs, because we're not interested in hearing you jerk off over how many shovelheads your character kill in an average round.

>You should worry about bad roleplayers (which may come with min/maxing, but just as likely don't)
Without exception every min maxer I've seen is a bad player, let alone just a bad roleplayer.

>>96270325
having a 4 + 4 + specialization dicepool and a discipline at 3 is the most you can achieve at char gen, so no it is not just base level competency. And if you are against that, you suck.

>>96270242
>If you are not optimizing your character and are making them weak just so that you aren't labeled as a min-maxer/powergame, you are a shit player
Only powergamers worry about this kek, normal players don't even consider it.

>>96270340
>having a 4 + 4 + specialization dicepool and a discipline at 3 is the most you can achieve at char gen
Depends on the ruleset, and we're obviously not just talking about char gen. This also isn't what you specified.

If you genuinely get pissed that your fellow players don't minmax and munchkin the game like you do, I would kick you from my table in a heartbeat because I know your ass can't handle it when things don't go your way 24/7.

>>96270340
>having a 4 + 4 + specialization dicepool and a discipline at 3 is the most you can achieve at char gen
You're obviously the type to nag the GM into letting you take things past their level caps kek

>>96270363
I am not, you are all projecting.
Maybe you are used to different min/maxers but at my table it'd be just 4+4+spec + discipline and maybe some loresheet with 5 dots, and all of that is ok, easy to handle. You're a shit GM if you can't.

If your definition of min-maxing is "breaks the rules" then yeah, no shit it's a bad player.

>>96270369
>but at my table it'd be just 4+4+spec + discipline
Kek, the skill cap is 3 in v20 retardo, way to give yourself away

>>96270380
I am not playing v20 but v5, retard here is you. Why would I discuss a ruleset that's been dead for over a decade?

>>96270369
>>96270340
>>96270293
I get the feeling that you're the type of guy who "plans out" his character build before a game even starts.

>>96270385
>only knows the munchkin edition
>nooooo im not an autistic munchkin guys i get games i swear!!!!

>>96270388
Yeah, and also all my characters lost their family and are secretely half demon half angel and also own a magic katana that has been in the family for generation and they also know kung fu and are secretly mithras

got any more projections?

>>96270380
Minor correction, the cap on Abilities is 3 BEFORE spending freebie points.

>>96270285
I just make lots corresponding to premade characters, have the players draw them then run an one-three session short that either grows into a proper game, or allows me to filter good players and assholes.

Minmaxing can be mitigated by swapping to xp-based creation after.

>>96270393
>Yeah
Didn't need to read the rest of the spergout, thanks for the confirmation.

>>96270389
how tf is v5 the munchkin edition when disciplines were way more broken in oWoD?

Maybe all this fear of optimization comes from playing editions where you could easily break the game because the mechanics suck due to overpowered disciplines like old vicissitude and blood sorcery

>>96270396
I like this method. I found that premades for short adventures were a good way to sort out who can and can't vibe.

>>96270385
>>96270389
>>96270380
Frens, no fighting, pls. Just accept the other guy has different opinions and move on.

>>96270400
>how tf is v5 the munchkin edition when disciplines were way more broken in oWoD?
How would you know if you aren't a munchkin?

>overpowered disciplines like old vicissitude and blood sorcery
You seem to have really intimate knowledge of how to break games :^)

>>96270408
>>96270396

how often do you even change players that you need to treat your games as job interviews? I run 2 groups and have been for 5y+

There must be something wrong with you if you go through players like that. You should form long lasting friendships instead of just running a game for a couple months and then ditching each other.

>>96270408
My favorite thing with premades is that they will immediately sort out autismos who just shut down if you don't cater to their super-specific interests.

People who are there to make things happen and help weave a tale have no problem with it, but somebody who came to the table with a specific agenda (be it to indulge in a masturbatory power fantasy or because they only accept a very particular type of storytelling) will just get up and leave. They don't fuss about it nearly as much as they otherwise would, too.

>>96270420
>how often do you even change players that you need to treat your games as job interviews?
Well anon, over the 19 years I've been playing I've had a multitude of groups come and go as schedules change, games end, friends drift apart or back together. I think in the past 5~ years I've needed to vet maybe 20 players altogether across the seven separate games that have run since then, but I don't exactly keep track.

>I run 2 groups and have been for 5y+
And you've never had to swap anybody out even once? That's astonishingly rare. I hope you appreciate your groups, most people aren't so lucky.

>>96270420
>The minmaxer can't comprehend people not having his exact experience
Kek, post 3 pages of game notes with timestamp btw.

>>96270420
I've had one friend group that I've consistently run for for the last 8 years. We have five altogether (including myself) and occasionally rotate who's running.

Otherwise I like to meet and introduce new people to the hobby by running games for people not in my inner circle. I usually have 1 or 2 trusted players and then 2-4 I don't know. Most of the time it goes fine, occasionally there are personality clashes, but I like to sift out problem players ASAP. A munchkin who waits until session 6 to finally blow his top is going to be more disruptive than one who gets spotted and tossed out during session 0, no?

>>96270420
Not that often, but when it happens it's easier to run a quick short rater than allow problems to fester in a game you spent a while prepping up.
New players don't waste too time trying to come up with a character, too.

>>96270450
often enough you had to make a psycho test to sift out all the players who won't tolerate a tyrannical dm

>>96270446
Munchkin players just haven't been a problem in my games unless you consider the character being a munchkin itself being a problem, in which case I will stick with my opinion that the GM is at fault for having a "GM vs player" mindset

Compatability OOC is far more important than being mad that a character can roll 10 dice at something

>>96270470
>Munchkin players just haven't been a problem in my games
So far you've argued that you, as a munchkin yourself, haven't been a problem in other games. I didn't really buy that, and I don't really buy this, because you've refused to accept that I've encountered munchkin players and found them extremely disruptive and annoying.

>Compatability OOC
Most people aren't munchkins so this is also a point against your claims.
And as you've proven in this thread, you will vocally take issue and think other players are obligated to optimize their characters in your presence according to your likes.

>>96270322
>The min-maxed gangrel brawler slices through your fights like butter? So what, let him. It's what he made his char for and clearly enjoys doing. He will likely suck in social situations, and that's where you can make him sweat.
Every time I've seen this the minmaxer just roleplays their character as a social butterfly and (tries) to avoid rolling so they get the best of both worlds. Doesn't usually work because they're autistic retards but then you have an autistic retard to deal with OOC and IC

>>96270436
20 minutes, no notes, 100% has never run a game in his life lol

>>96270469
I'm no tyrant, it's way easier to get the newbies into the flow of things and drop people that want to win at everything, feel entitled things like Golconda despite being a murderous psychopath, or just throw a tantrum and grind the game to a halt any time their power fantasy so much as threatened.

>>96270521
not a single thing wrong with wanting to win and the rest of what you said is just projection, you just get mad when players succeed without your explicit permission that's all lmao

I simply kill player characters I don’t like because I’m god of this world and have the power to do so

>>96270478
Anon, I'm a ST, I get to be a player once in a blue moon

If munchkins were a problem for you (as characters) then I will re-iterate: skill issue on your end. If they have been shit at roleplay/assholes then sure, their fault, but linking an optimized character to being an autist is just insane to me.

As for my games, I like people playing competent characters, because
a) it tells me that they actually engaged with the system and decided what they want from it
b) I don't need to hand-hold them and am free to toss elders into the ring w/o my players feeling like I'm bullying them
c) it tells me they got a "hacker mindset" and will likely come up with creative problem solving when their dice stop working

With c your mileage may vary. Sure, there are those autists that try to solve everything with a large combat dice pool, but in my experience those players are often very young or make themselves known with their character's backstory, and the dice pools are just a symptom.

>>96270498
pic related, but go fuck yourself

>>96270532
>pic related
pic unrelated, it wouldn't take you 30 min to take a screenshot these aren't yours lmao

The only reason minmaxing is a thing is because chargen was poorly thought out from a mechanical perspective which is why I personally ditched it.

>>96270542
just because you demand some kind of proof of me being a ST, doesn't mean I will immediately engage with you, faggot. Arguing with the others is simply more engaging.

>>96270532
>Anon, I'm a ST, I get to be a player once in a blue moon
That's cool, I still don't believe you because you refused to accept my own experiences as valid.

>but linking an optimized character to being an autist is just insane to me.
You haven't really offered any rationale beyond "I'm an optimizer." for why you think it's wrong to do so.

>As for my games, I like people playing competent characters
Once again, goalpost shifting. Powergaming =/= Competency =/= Munchkinry. Your inability to stick to a consistent narrative is another example of why I don't buy your nonsense. It reeks of emotional vulnerability in a logical argument.

>>96270556
Didn't read, you're not an ST. I guarantee you had to go ask someone to give you their notes kek

>>96270525
Players can succeed, can fail, can even derail the adventure, and I'd try to accommodate them. Assholes need to be discarded before that, is all.
>what you said is just projection, you just get mad
I'm not the one who's been losing his shit all over the thread over how other people run their games.

>>96270558
And as I said before, I play V5 where competency == munchkinry because you cannot make something that matches your definition of munchkin (breaking the game) at char gen

As for why I think it is insane that you behave like this? Because you are judging people for numbers they put on a sheet instead of how they behave, which is entirely unrelated to the numbers (other than highers numbers in my opinioning allowing them to do more which I think makes for a better story, but that is a preference on my end admittedly)

>>96270561
absoluetely delusional

>>96270579
You have three minutes to post notes 10, 2c, and 14, with 2c open in the editor. Prove me wrong kek

>>96270073
Buy Auspex 6

>>96270532
Cool notes, what site/program are u using?
Seems better than some notepad which I'm currently using.

>>96270591
That's just Roll20

>>96270585
bark bark, but still fuck you

>>96270591
it's just roll20

>>96270579
>And as I said before, I play V5 where competency == munchkinry
This isn't a system-specific thing, anon, so no, it doesn't.
>because you cannot make something that matches your definition of munchkin (breaking the game)
You absolutely can though. Why lie?

>As for why I think it is insane that you behave like this? because you are judging people
Ahh, there it is. You're not mad that I'm judging others, you're mad that I'm judging *you* for being a munchkin.
What's insane is, my judgement has zero effect on you, and it's likely that you would never in your life have even had the opportunity to try joining my table. Yet it bothers you greatly that I would not let you play in your preferred way, maximizing your control and power over the game as a player, at my table.

>>96270596
Took you 4 minutes, instructions not followed, you failed. better luck next thread nogames lmao

>>96270605
Ok, show me the V5 neonate at char gen that breaks the game and I'll tell you why they don't.

I like powergaming. It makes my failures a true skill issue.

>>96270615
based

>>96270611
Aus 1, For 2 (Invig Vitae), take a 3 dot retainer with STR+STA of 6, bond slave and long bond. Take the HFA merit, give the ghoul a resonance using HFA. You can now loop infinite hunger/blood off them for free with no chance of failure.
This has been known about for at least 2 years.

>>96270550
We did that for our Requiem game years and years ago. Just start with one dot in your attributes, plus the extra one for Clan, then get a lump sum of xp to build your character with.

>>96270627
Mine is a bit more complicated.

I have everyone start at base willpower 4, then you have either specialized or generalized stat spreads. Both are the same experience. If you wanna raise things beyond the fairly mediocre stats I give you you have to fill out a backstory with deep dark personal secrets. If you want to be lower generation you get bonus flaws to represent either being older or closer to vampires who are old. Or you have to take the diablerie flaw.

>>96270626
Ok, you have a blood battery. Cool, but how does it break the game? You forego your hunting rolls and herd does pretty much the same.
Golconda 4 dot loresheet can decrease hunger by 1 each session. Again pretty much same effect.

Your retainer is not always around, can be kidnapped.

I don't consider not needing to hunt to feed breaking the game, unless there's something I'm missing.

>>96270648
>Ok, you have a blood battery. Cool, but how does it break the game?
How does negating hunger break the game? Are you sure you've played V5?

>>96270590
So... your character needs to pitch what he wants as whan NPC want to hears while you as a player need to pitch the whole thing as what ST wants to hear?

>>96270590
Good thing dark ages rules let me buy 7th gen at chargen.

Get a room you two.

>>96270649
Yes, and like I said, Herd does the exact same thing, without the discipline loop, which is fun sure, but the mechanical outcome is the same.

Now narratively, it could be game breaking I suppose (why doesn't everyone do it?) but we can handwave that away with such industrialization of humans as battery causes stains and is a fast track to turning wight or that healing the human only replenishes their blood up to a certain point

>>96270678
>Yes, and like I said, Herd does the exact same thing
No, it doesn't.
>But the mechanical outcome is the same
No, it's not.
I think you're either disingenuous, or you seriously haven't played the game enough to understand the difference between "you don't need to hunt" and "You have infinite Vitae and never need to worry about hunger again."

God created the Syndicate and NWO because otherwise the Technocracy would have just been straight up the unquestionable good guys of WoD

>>96270667
Do be mindful of diablerists, anon. A vampire of elder generation without power to back it up is the most appetising treat ever.

>>96270686
Infinite vitae and and not needing to hunt has the same outcome in a session. What would you do with infinite vitae, that you cannot do with a herd?

Do lots of rituals? Those take time, so vitae isn't the limiting factor. It's not like having more blood than what you can use to heal damage/use blush of life / spend on powers will do anything. I guess you could sell blood bags, sure. But again, I don't think just healing aggravated damage also means refilling their blood

>>96270705
On the upside, there's always a chance I'll end up possessing the body of a hot girl.

>>96270678
>Yes, and like I said, Herd does the exact same thing
NTA but Herd slakes up to 5 hunger per week if you take it at 5 dots, not infinite hunger.

>>96270686
No, he's correct. Vitae is not tracked in V5, there is only Hunger. You hunger will still remain at 1 unless you kill your retainer, so the chance for messy criticals and bestial failure remains. Hardly breaking the game.

>>96270720
>>96270730
>Infinite vitae and and not needing to hunt has the same outcome
Okay, so you haven't played V5. Got it.
>What would you do with infinite vitae, that you cannot do with a herd?
Well for one, I can cast as many disciplines as I want. For two, I can always guarantee myself at being at 1 Hunger. For three, I can heal myself as much as I want. For four, if I'm also a blood sorcerer I can get infinite vitae whenever *and* wherever I want, which apply to points one through three.

>>96270678
you'd treat infinite blood the same as just having a herd? You'd be a terrible ST kek

>>96270748
it is not infinite and not whenever, you need to spend time preparing the blood bottles and consuming them and during an intense action sequence (e.g. a fight) you won't just wander off to suck on your battery

It sounds cool on paper, but for practical purposes it doesn't really matter, other than being some kind of blood banker.

It sounds cool on paper, but only if you completely dismiss the component of time from it and assume that healing damage = restores a mortal's vitae

>>96270730
>You hunger will still remain at 1 unless you kill your retainer, so the chance for messy criticals and bestial failure remains. Hardly breaking the game.
Staying at 1 Hunger practically forever breaks any game unless you're playing capeshit wearing a vampire skinsuit. Having a herd is already pretty good even though it can't cover all your needs, and this is a herd with no limits that can.

Its doubtful any ST would allow it at their table but >>96270611 is a retard for thinking it can't be broken.

>>96270073
There are probably Nosferatu who specifically developed powers like that to fuck with people.

>>96268238
What was jank about it?

>>96270788
>it is not infinite
Yes it is.
>and not whenever
Yes, it is.
>you need to spend time preparing the blood bottles and consuming them and during an intense action sequence
No, you don't. All you need to do is state the command word to use Calix Secretus.

Sorry, it's clear you don't know how the game works since you were confused as to why infinite hunger is game breaking. There's not much point in continuing to explain a game that you don't understand.

>>96270788
>and assume that healing damage = restores a mortal's vitae
This is just factually correct though. The aggravated damage done is explicitly a result of blood loss. You can't exactly heal that damage if you aren't restoring blood.

>demand proof that you can be a munchkin in v5
>receive proof that you can be a munchkin in v5
>screeching how that isn't TRVE munchkinry
powergamers aren't autistic and disruptive tho guys & dont you dare disagree

>>96270846
You can, so long as you do not dismiss potential metaphysical qualities of blood.
Rulebook plainly states that a human can slake 5 dots of Hunger. It does not equate dealing 1 agg damage = heals 1 hunger (since you can slake without dealing agg damage too).

Nowhere does it say that when you heal a mortal's agg damage, that you can slake more hunger from them.

When you heal the agg damage your feeding did with invigorating blood, you return the blood that went through you like an alchemical vessel to the human and it heals them. But it doesn't mean that if you sip from that human again you will slake the same hunger again. The blood is good enough to keep the mortal alive, but it may have lost its lustre in terms of slaking your hunger.

Blood clearly has metaphysical qualities besides just being blood, otherwise elders wouldn't need to sip mortals or other kindred.

But even if it works, it ignores the time component to make use of his "infinite vitae"

>>96270832

>System: The process takes an hour. Make a Ritual roll, and if successful, the vampire imbues the object with an amount of Blood from the caster. If the caster wishes to release their Blood from the object, they need to say the command word. The amount of Blood stored can sate one Hunger for every two Rouse Checks made when storing the Blood.

You spend one hour to store at most 4 dots of hunger (with on average spending 1 dot of hunger for the rouse check). Storing more than 4 will take more time.

Ok, let's say you carry 20 of those talismans around. Now what? You use your powers. Ok, you can still only use 1 per turn, same as any other vamp. You will outlast someone in a duel with that, but if you're weaker than them they will just start sucking on you. And if you aren't weaker than them, you didn't need the vitae anyway.

For practical purposes in a session it is no different than having prepared the talisman with a herd.

>>96270924
>Nowhere does it say that when you heal a mortal's agg damage, that you can slake more hunger from them.
Nowhere does it say anything else you asserted. It's very logical to say that if the damage linked to bloodloss is removed, the bloodloss is removed.

>>96270924
>Heh, ok so maybe you DO have infinite vitae, but it doesn't let you kill Caine himself so it doesn't count as breaking the game
This is basically what your argument has and will boil down to, since you know you lost the moment an exploit was found. You don't play the game, and you don't know how to argue.

>>96270928
bloodloss removed does not necessarily mean that more hunger can be slaked though

>>96270936
>bloodloss removed does not necessarily mean that more hunger can be slaked though
Please find me where it says this in the rules, exact phrase. You have 5 minutes.

>>96270934
No, you assumed infinite blood, but that is only true if we assume infinite time.

With infinite time someone with herd X can do the same.

If we restrict the time to 1 hour, someone with herd X can still do the same (do the ritual, then get hunger back down to 1 by sucking all the stacies in the club)

>>96270611
Asking someone to break a World of Darkness game? Well surely this won't take more than a reply, as only a retard would think it's impossible to-
Oh.
Oh no.

>>96270943
No you. Find me where it says that healing aggravated damage in mortals restores amount of hunger being able to be slaked.

>>96270867
>reference reddit thread
>ignore all responses in that thread saying it's bs
>declare victory

Can you two retards take it elsewhere? At least debate something more productive than this.

>>96270611
Take Retainer 3. Have the retainer take Allies 6 for a Gifted Mortal with instant response time, and 4 points in whatever background you want. Repeat ad infinitum. Use Blood Bonding/Dominate to force your infinity ally chain to give you whatever you want.
Boom, minned, maxed, munchkinned, broken.
inb4
>But the storyteller could do this or that
Doesn't matter, a storyteller can just say no make a new character before you even try it. If the game master being able to stop it makes it not broken, then no game ever can be broken and your entire argument is pointless.

>>96270966
>No
I accept your concession.

>96270980
>Get mad, demand the other party does something to satisfy you
>Get even madder when they succeed
>Start coping

>>96270987
Infinite ally chain I'll actually let pass, that's funny. Ofc all retainers and allies are very much open for GM fiat, as opposed to a PC, but still this is something that's really broken as opposed to simply a neat trick

>>96270993
Hitchen's razor

>>96271007
Hitchen's razor means your assertion can be dismissed. Try again.

>>96270722
I ran tomb of the ancient hustle once. Most diablerists were in double digits, and the experience is always a wringer even with custom ritual support. Had a few beautiful bodies, but 7th gen I finally nabbed was one ugly bastard. Giovanni too, at that.

Also used to back up my consciousness into creatures, sanguine assistant-style, then have them ritually diablerise me so that there'd be more of control-immune me's running around at my original generation.

Both things are very risky and rack up derangements like nothing else, though.

>>96271007
Oh I don't need your permission anon, I just thought it'd be fun to drop another easy way to break the game on you. Maybe when you get to sit down and play some day you can try using it and spare the GM a later headache.

>>96271011
But your assertation is that healing agg damage restores the amount of hunger being able to be slaked. Which is an assumption I dismiss because nowhere does it state that.

>>96271059
>But your assertation is that
My assertion isn't. I just read the rules.
You assert that things not written in the rules at all must be true, and the only support for said assertion is faulty logic.

>>96271064
Again, show us where healing Agg. damage restores hunger being able to be slaked.

It doesn't state that anywhere, but the whole infinity vitae loop hinges upon this assumption. It's only reasonable to expect some sort of proof for this assumption being true.

>>96271021
Not really a fan of allies, so no.

>>96271078
Again, show us a single passage of the rules supporting your assertion. You can't.

>>96271085
I figured you'd hate anything the GM could possibly fuck you over on. God forbid you lose control, right?

>>96271088
But it is you who is asserting things, not me.

>>96271128
Incorrect, it's you who does not understand how the game works and can't reference a single rule in his favor.

>>96271091
At tables like yours? For sure.

>>96271078
>Again, show us where healing Agg. damage restores hunger being able to be slaked.
NTA but you don't "restore hunger that you can slake", or whatever you're trying to say. Humans don't have a pool of hunger/blood that you're taking from like in V20. You simply do damage if you overfeed.

The reason this loop works at all is because it undoes the damage you'd cause by frenzying and overfeeding.

>>96271132
Dude, page 211 and 212. Says right there how much hunger can be slaked per mortal.

You want to slake more by healing agg. damage? Go ahead and show me the rule for it.

>>96271134
Nah, you hate it in general. I know your type, you can't stand it when someone disagrees or tells you no and you'll argue with them until you're blue in the face and get the last word, no matter how stupid you look.

>>96271147
>Dude, page 211 and 212. Says right there how much hunger can be slaked per mortal.
No, it doesn't? All it states is how much damage you do relative to hunger slaked in a given instance of feeding. Which supports what I said, not you.
Man, you're so bad at this.

>>96271144
>>96271161

>Humans don't have a pool of hunger/blood that you're taking from

Incorrect, page 212.
Your options are:
Sip from human, 1 hunger slaked
Maximum non-harmful drink from human, 2 hunger slaked
Harmful drink from human that risks death unless treated 1-4 One turn per Hunger slaked
Human drained and killed, 5 hunger slaked

If you slake 5 or more, the human is dead. Doesn't matter if you heal them or not. Or are you going to argue that just sipping 5 times doesn't kill them because it does no damage?

It plainly states that slaking more than 2 does agg damage, but it doesnt state that healing that agg damage allows you to sip more than 5.

>>96271152
Given your need to control freak your player's characters I'd say that's a projection

>>96271190
>Incorrect, page 212.
>Your options are:
>Sip from human, 1 hunger slaked
>Maximum non-harmful drink from human, 2 hunger slaked
>Harmful drink from human that risks death unless treated 1-4 One turn per Hunger slaked
>Human drained and killed, 5 hunger slaked
And these talk about a hunger and blood pool... Where?

How strong should a 5 dot retainer be?

>>96271225
>Everyone is the same person!
It must be awful living as you do.

>>96271240
If a human has a maximum that you can slake it is as if they have some kind of meter of hunger you can slake from them. we could even say, a pool.

>>96271190
Nowhere on here does it say this is the maximum amount in total that you can feed. These are all different amounts and methods by which you can feed in a given instance.

>Doesn't matter if you heal them or not
So by your logic, feeding is never recovered from in V5, ever, and actually Vampires aren't drinking blood but some sort of supernatural essence.
Since otherwise, nothing you're saying makes any sense and you just look retarded.

>>96271263
>If a human has a maximum that you can slake it is as if
What do you mean 'as if'? You said they do, not 'as if they do'. But the rules don't say they do or anything like that, so they don't, and you're wrong.

Also how many dots should a human thaumaturge sorcerer be as an ally?

>>96271268
Apparently healing with blood doesn't actually physically heal anything either. Well hey nobody ever said powergamers were smart lmao

So now that the thread is dead, what does everyone think of Blood Junkies? I read it a while ago when the ""author"" was shilling it here and it struck me as unfinished garbage. If I recall a major problem was that the feeding rules said you'd kill someone once in every couple attempts at feeding on average.

>>96271268
>>96271308

It does though. Slake 5 hunger and the mortal is dead. That's the maximum. It's right there in the table.

And yes, RAW the rules never state how or how long it takes for a human to restore being able to be fed from without harm. From herd we can infer it would take a week for 1 person at best.

The issue is you all treating hunger slaked as simply the physical properties of blood, completely ignoring the metaphysical aspect of it, so you conflate agg damage/health with hunger slaked, and therefore in your diminished logic healing agg. damage/health = restoring hunger to be slaked.

This really only makes sense if you actually believe that it is just the physical propery of blood that slakes hunger, and not something more esoteric like "essence of life". If we go by your view of the lore and system, then there should be no difference between blood outside a human (blood bags) and blood inside a human and the iron gullet merit makes no sense, because why would blood outside a human be different from blood inside a human, if it is just about physical properties?

>>96271342
>It does though.
It does what?
>Slake 5 hunger and the mortal is dead.
In one go, yup. Nowhere does it say humans have a hunger pool of 5 or anything to even imply it.

>The issue is you all treating hunger slaked as simply the physical properties of blood, completely ignoring the metaphysical aspect of it
Ah, more headcanon.

>>96271341
It's store brand V5. Not even joking, it does the same sort of "street level only, you're hungry tonight" shit as V5.

>>96271349
You are playing a game where there is a discipline called blood sorcery and dismiss the metaphysical aspect of blood? Ok dude.

And by your logic one could sip infinite amount of hunger by using the "just take a sip" option repeatedly, that's retarded.

>>96271342
>If we go by your view of the lore and system, then there should be no difference between blood outside a human (blood bags) and blood inside a human
RAW, there isn't until 15 minutes have passed. IRL, blood outside the body immediately starts to coagulate and dry, so it makes sense that it's worse physically.

>the iron gullet merit makes no sense
It does because it covers processed blood. V5 explicitly says in its rules that processed blood doesn't work for slaking hunger because it's been physically altered.
Specifically: "Centrifuged to separate the plasma from the blood cells and then stored as plasma, packed red blood cells, or other blood products. Even whole blood comes stored with anticoagulant preservatives such as CPDA-1. All these alterations makes bagged blood unpleasant (at best) to drink, and almost useless to Kindred.

So yep, it's pretty clear that it's the physical properties that matter.

>>96271362
Hey man, its your headcanon. Believe whatever contradictory nonsense helps you sleep at night.
>And by your logic one could sip infinite amount of hunger by using the "just take a sip" option repeatedly
Nobody claimed the rules were well written.

>>96271362
But by your logic you could still drain 5 hunger from someone who had just had half of the blood transfused from their body.

>>96271370
even so, then you are assuming that healing a mortal with vig. vitae will restore their blood in such a way that it is drinkable and slakes hunger again, while the following option is just as / more likely:

the restored health could come from the vamp blood simply working better than their own (meaning while it keeps them alive, it'd still not slake you more, because the amount is still just 1 rouse worth of blood)

>>96271401
>even so
Concession, accepted.
>you are assuming that healing a mortal with vig. vitae will restore their blood in such a way that it is drinkable and slakes hunger again
Do you have any rules that say this? Because it seems to be your assumption that there's anything deeper to it than physical bloodloss, which is entirely unsupported by the rules.

Infact since you brought up iron gullet and bagged blood, we can pretty conclusively say all a Vampire cares about is physical, human blood, as no spiritual or esoteric qualities of the blood are mentioned there.

>>96271401
I'd be more concerned with my Storyteller ruling that my ghoul dies of shock immediately when he inevitably fails one of the lsd hypothetical difficulty 4 Strength+Stamina rolls. After all, the rules don't state how long it takes for a mortal to die when they fail the roll.

>>96271401
>the restored health could come from the vamp blood simply working better than their own
This doesn't really make sense as it just says it heals the damage done. Rather than acting as some blood replacement (Doesn't work that way), RAW says it heals the damage, and that means the cause of the damage. Unless you think Vampires heal themselves with no physical change.

>>96271424
Sorry, hypothetically infinite Difficulty 4 Strength+Stamina rolls is what I ment.

>>96271424
RAW you can just slake 3, diff 3, take half errytime.

>>96271418
if there is not metaphysical thing going on then why does higher blood potency require the death of a mortal to reduce hunger below X? Why can't they get vitae from blood bags anymore?

I think it is both, there is a metaphysical property to feeding, and if you change the physical matter of blood you are just further removing the blood from that metaphysical property. After all. WoD is explicitly a game with magic in it, reducing it all to pure physics doesn't vibe with the rest of the setting

>>96271438
well yes, that is my point. RAW it only heals agg damage, says nothing about you being able to slake more because you healed them.

ITT: We demonstrate why you don't want a minmaxer at your table

>>96271455
At ST's discretion.

>>96271475
ITT: we build a contentious strawman argument from Reddit and then get mad when it isn't accepted

>>96271478
No, that's literally just how taking blood that way works.

>>96271474
>if there is not metaphysical thing going on then why does higher blood potency require the death of a mortal to reduce hunger below X?
Physically, you need to drain a full mortal's worth of blood and straight from the tap. Why would metaphysics enter into this in any way?

>Why can't they get vitae from blood bags anymore?
Higher blood potency means you need better quality blood.

>I think it is both, there is a metaphysical property to feeding
Hitchen's razor.

>>96271474
>well yes, that is my point.
Your point is that healing doesn't actually heal physical damage? Or do you mean to say that you've been wrong this entire time?

>says nothing about you being able to slake more because you healed them.
Why would it?

>Maybe if I shotgun out enough words people won't find me insufferable
The mind of the powershitter is incomprehensible.

>>96271475
It's bad enough you'd almost think he was actually trying to give optimizing a bad name.

>>96271483
I'm sorry... Are we talking about violently Slaking 3 Hunger, inflicting three aggravated damage, and then the ghoul having 7 dice to resist the difficulty 3 roll? Because if so, then the Automatic Win rule is at the ST's discretion, usually done to speed up play when the consequences of failure are minor. How is thr potential death of my ghoul a minor consequence to failure?

If we're talking something different, then I stand corrected.

>>96271522
>Because if so, then the Automatic Win rule is at the ST's discretion
Take half is at the player's discretion according to the Companion. hyeptg?

>>96271504
My point is that that healing physical damage through supernatural means does not return the amount of hunger that can be slaked from the mortal, since it doesn't state that RAW and is just inferred head canon because slaking does deal agg damage so people imo correctly assume that the the reverse must be true too.

The whole "infinite hunger slaked" doesn't work if healing agg. damage does not make it possible to slake more hunger.

>>96271519
You are the faggots that came up with this retarded example of optimizing, which you took from REDDIT.

It's a strawman that only works because of certain assumptions made, not RAW.

The only munchkin optimization for V5 posted so far was the infinite ally chain posted earlier.

>>96271550
>My point is that that healing physical damage through supernatural means does not return the amount of hunger
What do you mean "return"? Where's this in the rules, exactly?
>because slaking does deal agg damage
Overfeeding specifically does damage as a result of bloodloss, yeah. You can remove said damage with healing.
By your logic, healing doesn't actually physically heal anything ever. Obviously this makes no sense and is pure headcanon, so we're disregarding your random assertions.

>>96271550
*incorrectly

>>96271529
Yes, I have played the game, thanks. I'm referencing the rule on pg. 120 of the core book. It also wouldn't be the first time White Wolf wrote one thing in the Core book, and then something completely different in another book.

>>96271562
>You are the faggots that came up with this retarded example of optimizing
You asked for munchkinry, and then got extremely butthurt when given an example and tried everything to nitpick it away instead of admitting that you can, infact, break v5.
>It's a strawman that only works because of certain assumptions made, not RAW.
It explicitly works under RAW which is why you found no examples of rules opposing it. You're the one who needed to assume things to construct an argument against it, which failed anyways.
>The only munchkin optimization
Ah, and now it's becoming "W-well I want more than one example, that doesn't count!".
Sad, I've seen dollar store toys from china that lasted longer than this.

>>96271565
Dude I think we are talking past each other.
Earlier some idiot posted some infinite loop taken from https://www.reddit.com/r/vtm/comments/12dvsin/slake_infinite_hunger_how_to_actually_break_vtm_v5/ because I said people couldn't break V5 at char gen.

I've since been arguing that this method by RAW does not work, since nowhere does it state that healing a mortal's agg damage allows for more hunger to be slaked past the 5 that can be slaked from it

>>96271572
Ok, and like I said that's been amended in the Companion. hyeptg?

>>96271574
it explicitly does not work under RAW. Again, show me the rule that says "heal agg damage of mortal = they can be fed from more than 5 dots of hunger"

>>96271576
>Earlier some idiot posted some infinite loop taken from [reddit link]
Say... Why would you think it was from reddit? This is the only time that's linked to in this thread.

>because I said people couldn't break V5 at char gen.
Yeah, you asked them to and then they did.

>I've since been arguing that this method by RAW does not work
You haven't referred to a single rule that supports your argument though. You've just made, well, assumptions lol.

>>96271588
>it explicitly does not work under RAW.
Sure it does. Please show me which specific line in the rulebook prevents any part of it from working. We know there's nothing under the feeding rules that says such a thing as that's already been covered, as much as I'm sure you want to petulantly scream otherwise.

>>96271576
>Earlier some idiot
Kek, you can always tell someone is mad when they have no refutation and just ad hominem. "T-that idiot, how d-dare he prove me wrong!"

>>96271593
I think I am arguing with 100 IQ midwits. I must be.

I do not need to make any assumptions. You lot have been working wih the assumption that if you heal agg damage, more hunger can be slaked. That is an assumption. Because nowhere in the book does it state that.
The book does not state how long or how a mortal recovers the hunger that can be slaked, other than the herd merit.
The lot of you have been assuming that just because slaking hunger *can* deal agg damage, that this is the only limiting factor to how much hunger you can slake from a mortal.
This is not the case, the book plainly states at most 5 hunger can be slaked per mortal, and they die if you do.

>>96271621
>I do not need to make any assumptions
But you have and do, repeatedly, as has been proven conclusively.
>The book does not state
...Anything that supports your claims, yes. It does not say there is a hunger or blood pool, which you were insistent existed despite, uhh, not existing.
>This is not the case, the book plainly states at most 5 hunger can be slaked per mortal
In one go, correct. If you have a single passage of rules stating otherwise, post them or you're using an assumption. You have 3 minutes.

>>96271635
>>96271621
Time's up. Sorry, better luck tomorrow anon.

>>96271635
The table on page 212 is not "in one go", it lists multiple ways of feeding, some even taking up a whole scene and listing multiple victims (animals). You are assuming it is in "one go" just because it works for the case of the mortal being drained dead.

A mortal slakes 5 hunger max, period. Until they recover, and that is entirely up to ST discretion or the herd merit.

>>96270254
This would be a better take if owod didnt so heavily punish players who don't minmax.
You can argue against optimisation in a lot of games, but owod (And some kinds of shadowrun chargen) is the only one I can think of that actively punishes players for not minmaxing with a direct xp malus.
This problem was of course fixed in nwod, because it is the superior game.

>>96271688
It doesn't really punish you for not minmaxing.
>XP malus
You mean inefficient XP spending? That's not much of a concern in the first place if you aren't, well... Minmaxing.

>>96271721
you misery porn players and ST are the bane of this whole game, kill yourself unironically.

>>96271353
It's pretty much a rip of it, yeah. I think that was the intent though which, fair enough. I've hacked systems I prefer to Storyteller to play WoD with before (mixed results).
I was impressed with just how dogshit it was though. I think it's borderline impossible to survive as a vampire for more than a couple months because by then you'll be a serial killer, Junkie vampires explicitly have no real societal power or influence.

playing unoptimized characters is DEI, leftie cuck shit.

You aren't the better player just because you gimp your character on purpose just to be "not like *those* guys"

It's the equivalent of female Pickme behavior.

>>96271664
>The table on page 212 is not "in one go", it lists multiple ways of feeding, some even taking up a whole scene and listing multiple victims (animals)
NTA but every individual instance of feeding is just one go of feeding. Slaking more than 2 hunger requires you to feed in a specific way, too.
RAW, does it make no sense? Yeah but that's WoD baybeee

>>96271724
>>96271736
Do you need your thippy cup, young man? you theem a little upthet.

>>96271736
>You aren't the better player just because you gimp your character on purpose
Nobody does this btw. Powergamers are just control freaks who can't handle pushback.

>>96271785
People do this, otherwise there wouldn't be a discussion about min-maxing in the first place.

>>96271785
It's a weird projection from people who don't play games, yeah. They're self conscious about powergaming and assume everyone is mindful of it, and they just aren't.

Reading through this thread It seems like one ancient grognard tried to get everyone to start using outdated gaming lingo again and another anon started screeching that not wanting to play a walmart cashier shitpire makes you a bad player.
Has there been any non-sperging discussion since the elder thing left?

>>96271688
DESU I still prefer player discretionary advancement to rigid class-level systems like D&D, because while you might be quite a bit behind and rather useless in the beginning, you don't permanently and unsalvageably cripple your character if you don't optimise.

>>96271799
I wouldn't be surprised if it's one dude samefagging to drown the thread.

>>96271799
this thread constantly argues that everyone should play walmart cashier shitpires

it's what the writers wanted after all

personal horror

>>96271255
I mean, depends. As a ST I consider where you are (European Vampires are usually older and stronger, and thus have older and more powerful retainers), when and of course who you are.
If you are playing a 7th Gen Ancilla, your Dot 5 retainer might be your Ghouled Sorcerer from the 1800s.
You are a 5th Gen Elder in Tal'Mahe'Ra? You might have a Blood Familiar.
If you are a 12th Gen Neonate, do not be surprised if you are getting a skilled Ghouled Police officer or something like that as a Dot 5 retainer.
>>96271341
Ehh, it's not the worst but I wouldn't recommend it.

>>96271799
It's mostly arguing over rules and one autismo digging his heels in stubbornly. Not really worth the read desu

>>96271820
Faggots like you should get necked. Your characters are boring and nobody cares about personal horror, I'd rather play someone competent who gets shit done and has control over what happens in his life.

>>96271820
>personal horror
How do people still not understand that focussing on this, to the exclusion of everything else, is the thing that causes WoD to crash and burn.
OWoD used to have entire sections dedicated to it in bookstores the way D&D used to.
It was used a a reference guide for the Blade Movies.
"Pentex Sucks" Was the opening lyrics in Slipknot.
And now you'd be lucky to find a player that's even heard of WoD.

Personal Horror is a trash concept to center a game around. It works for early game neonates at best and it's dropped for more interesting themes in the best campaigns.

>>96271847
>>96271857
Very outdated view on things. Playing "competent" (min-maxed is what you really mean) characters is just admitting that your RL sucks so you are living vicariously by powergaming.
Good roleplayers play weak characters, because the game is about the struggle of the weak against the hierarchical power structures

>>96271799
It's not outdated lingo, it's using the words actual definitions. I swear you midwits will say and do anything to get out of a genuine discussion.

>>96271785
Every powergamer out there is a better player than you, they don't insist on inflicting the table with unfettered dogshit.

>>96271857
You can have horror while still being competent anyways. You fucks wouldn't be able to survive a game of delta green.

>>96271885
Objectively false.
Playing competent characters is fun because it lets you actually engage with the game. Maybe you just want to sit there and jerk the ST off and write whiny prose about how much your character sucks. But there isn't any struggle without strength.

>>96271885
Not him, but either is fine in my book. Having a day-long meltdown over what GMs encourage or don't, on the other hand, hell, I wouldn't wish that guy on any GM, good or bad.

>>96271885
>>96271888
>>96271911
You are all retards, shitting up the thread. If you ever play games, I wish your ST luck.

>>96271940
I've shown literal proof I've played games, how about you?

>>96271736
>DEI, leftie cuck shit
>not like *those* guys"
>female Pickme behavior.
Have you tried going outside once

>>96271956
Have you tried playing games, ever? actually playing them I mean not making a funny cashier with 2 dots in his best skill and zoning out for the next 4 hours

>>96271956
nice reddit retort

>>96271885
>Playing "competent" (min-maxed is what you really mean)
Because there's zero options between ulta-optimized hentai-tentacle-death-machine lasombra and homeless-cripple-thinblood caitiff. It's a binary, you're either minmaxing or powerless with no gradients in between.
Since I can't trust you've gotten the joke, the above is sarcasm. I'm making fun of you.

>>96271885
Bruh, what's the point of playing a miserable asshole when I'm already stuck like that irl?

>>96271989
What is the point of playing a miserable asshole if you don't suck like that IRL?
I have the same problem with those characters as I do anime protagonists, they're both unrelatable and annoying.

>>96271911
>>96271978
>>96271989

*yawn* Your unstoppable monsters just aren't interesting and not welcome at most tables

>>96272006
More interesting than anything you've ever even dreamed of playing.

>>96270596
>>96270532
Online notes? You've never actually played a tabletop game hahahahahahahahahahaha look at this zoomie

>>96272221
roll20 is over 12 years old anon

>>96272245
12 years of not playing a single tabletop game, pitiful how have you not killed yourself yet? lmfaaaaaaooooo

>>96271799
seems more like two faggots arguing about something when neither side knows what they're talking about in the first place

You sad never games bunch of twinky munchkins doesn't deserve (you)s. We have made fun of powergamers since first edition and we will continue indefinitely. Powergaming is an underage mindset.

>>96272368
Will both of you Fags just shut the fuck up already? Talk about games or admit you're also a no game, I don't care which.

>>96272398
If it helps I have a Devotion I'm working on that sounds good to me on paper but it's rather bland, I'd like to give it more flavor so it's not just a dice bonus.

>>96261987 (OP)
>how much horror is there actually at your table?
Unless chronicle is focused on it, not much. With the exception of Halloween. My ST likes to do seasonal sessions on our long chronicle. Like, we had some Fae shenanigans last Easter involving getting stuck in the Far Dreaming and previous Halloween where we had to deal with a small scale Draugr zombie apocalypse thanks to a Vampire with a very vicious bane. I lost my herd to that fucker.

>>96272627
Combo it with celerity and fluff the ability for tiny objects to deal lethal damage as throwing/flicking it so hard it goes supersonic. It'll also ignore defense like a bullet but be loud as hell, alerting everyone in the area.

>>96272865
Oh don't worry, I already got that one figured out. This one is defensive and is based on Celerity 2 and Obfuscate 2. 1 vitae/scene to add half Obfuscate to Defense, 1 vitae/turn to I'll get back to you on that.

>>96271956
we all know the answer to this anon
we are on 4chan for a reason

>Ecstatic insists the bootleg kamasutra she found is a powerful grimoire and everyone in the cabal can get at least one dot in a sphere if they follow the instructions
Why are they like this?

>>96269786
>Die
>Get to play Geist IRL
it ain't so bad. Unless you end up playing Wraith IRL instead.

>>96273513
I know nothing about Geist.
But becoming a Doomslayer sounds like the coolest afterlife possible (until my Shadow tells me to rape my soulforged chainsaw).

>>96273544
Come on, you know it'll be fun! What are you, a Doomslayer or a Doompussy?

>>96273544
>Doomslayer
That's DoomGUY fot you, zoomoid newfag.

>>96273562
anon...

>>96273562
Wonder how you'd react to the fact that "Helldivers" are a subfaction of the Doomslayers, predating the video game by almost 30 years.

>>96273646
I'm quite disappointed to know they were clearly ripping off more than just Starship Troopers.

>>96273851
Lmfao shut the fuck up you goober

>>96274409
make me, bitch boy

>Verbena reject Sorcerer gets uppity because she knows ONE ritual
>Gets her shit kicked in by a bunch of kids
You love to see it.

>>96263526
Mind sharing the source? This might just kickstart my effort to lessen wiki readings, and increase book readings.
>>96263738
I have a similar ''problem'', but what I do is invest in how each group control each other, and make Technocracy/Pentex more directly involved in government affairs as to serve as pest control, plus as a way to keep some common-sense on why there aren't masquerade breaches every second.

Also, like the other anon said; get the big guns directly involved to trim the numbers. I used years-long campaigns and over-permissiveness of my old inexperienced self to justify a soft reset:
>Inner Circle of Camarilla is about to decapitate the Prince and a lot of his councilors due to how poorly he(me) handed so much fucking shit happening
>Technocracy getting involved due to a masquerade breach so massive the government itself had to get involved to avoid mass panic
>Garou, which were the fewer splat I had in my city, start coming back due to so many vampires dying and the area getting ''safer'', which will help regulate Sabbats and Anarchs
>I'm laying groundwork for the next in line to become Prince to already start hunting Thinbloods and Anarchs massively to also trim their numbers much further

In short: Find in-universe reasons to cull overly-crowded numbers. You don't even need to have Deus Ex Machina's in place, eventually you just realize so much shit happening must have a turning point.

>>96275040
It’s from the Dark Ages Baali Clanbook.

My Avatar keeps telling me to kill them, KILL THEM ALL!!! Anyone want to switch?

>>96275089
Just get a relic block the noise or better control your emotions.

>>96275089
>i receive: one avatar
>you receive: a sexy cat
Deal? Y/Y

>>96275089
my avatar made me sign a contract to not kill sleepers then got mad when i killed a red news reporter with magick. i'm down to swap.

>>96275089
You have two options: Euthanatos or Nephandus.
Yes, you can take both if you want.

>>96275089
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RX_05uYAJBs
Just invest your xp in other skills, dummy.
I suggest Logic, Volition, Inland Empire and Shivers

So I have a question. How do you get a photo of a wraith in order to summon it? Do photos of the wraith before they died work or do you need to sketch an image of the wraith or how does that work?

>>96269845
"Barely a few years" after WW1? WW1 was in the teens. It took an entire generation and a lot of meth to get Germany up to speed on this, and they mostly relied on their neighbors not wanting another war after the last one but persisting in prosecuting it anyway because they believed in the "backstab" conspiracy theory.

So, yes, they got progressively chewed up even after they retreated from one fortified position to the next. Classic Spartan philosophy move, guaranteed to lose.

>>96269882
The people who knew that they were stepping in it didn't matter when they had dudes at the top who were both buying into their own hype and also on an unbelievable amount of crystal meth.

>>96275317
>When the Syndicate agent specializes in Dimensional Science

Suggestions for new tq?

>>96275059
Which also introduced the retarded idea not all Baali are bad so kind of funny that book has that intro

New thread:
>>96276560

>>96273508
they love ecstasy
it's in their name

>>96275659
Anon, one of the people who knew they were stepping in it was Hitler.