Moonfall Edition

>Previous thread:>>96256745

Legacies: https://www.warhammer-community.com/en-gb/downloads/warhammer-the-horus-heresy/

>HH 3.0 Leaks
https://files.catbox.moe/98h6h7.pdf
https://gofile.io/d/cnJk0N
>Mech Leaks
https://imgur.com/a/lRaqKSw
>SA Gofile
https://gofile.io/d/YEEqBN
>Knight and Titans
https://imgur.com/a/gETA32z
https://imgur.com/a/UU60bLV
https://imgur.com/a/HqAriJA
https://imgur.com/a/9YS0YJG
Sloptica Journal 1
https://gofile.io/d/3q0Xkt

>New Edition upon us to a great wailing and gnashing of teeth
https://www.warhammer-community.com/en-gb/setting/warhammer-the-horus-heresy/
>Official FAQ/Errata/Downloads:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/en-gb/downloads/warhammer-the-horus-heresy/
>Thread FAQ (very old, remembers Age of Terra)
https://pastebin.com/iUqNrrA8
https://pastebin.com/8riDmnhS
>30k TACTICA & TIPS
https://pastebin.com/Tm2P4QLp
https://1d6chan.miraheze.org/wiki/Age_of_Darkness-Warhammer_30k/2.0_Tactics/General_Tactics

『Adeptus Titanicus and Legions Imperialis』
>Official FAQ/Errata/Downloads
https://www.warhammer-community.com/en-gb/downloads/legions-imperialis/
>List of Titan Legions with Badges and Colours
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/17Jccq0V--SwJifLVLwbisYnQeqLlS2pMSiPbGXp1Brs/htmlview
>More lists
https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/List_of_Titan_Legions
>What size magnets do I need?
5x1mm
>Tactics
https://1d6chan.miraheze.orug/wiki/Adeptus_Titanicus/Tactics

>Thread Question:
No question, just post models

>AL terminators can take banestrike combi-bolters
>AL vets can take banestrike combi-bolters
>AL tanks can take pintle mounted banestrike combi-bolters

should I? banestrike on terminators seems solid purely for the volleyfire

thousand sons or death guard?

>>96263067
KSons are cooler
Disregard accusation of waacfagottry and don't abuse their strong rules.

>>96263049 (OP)
We really are the Horse Heresy

>>96263067
Raven Guards

>>96263066
Only if you use the cool banestrike bolter models from the SOH upgrade sprue

What are YOU bringing to
>Kill MEQs
>Kill TEQs
>Kill AV14

>>96263078
was planning on getting prints of the same design as the SoH ones have the SoH gold coins on them

>>96263079
>grav/plas secutors
>grav/plas secutors
>grav/plas secutors

>>96263066
Coolest part about Justies this edition, volley fire at full BS with banestrike combis. Might even be worth it to not take the multi-melta. You could probably take Abaddon with one instead of a Paragon blade, since you'll be clawing anyways.

>>96263079
chainglaives and volkite
thunder hammers
laser destroyers

>>96263079
>Destroyers
>All the phosphex
>Atrapos Freeblade and grav/claw moirax

>>96263079

In my current army?

>Rotor Cannons, Volkite and Nemesis Vets who are now Seekers. Destroyers and Moritat and a Boxnaut.
>Fuck only knows
>A Leviathan with Grav and Melta

I just never expected them to actually make Saturnines, I should have realised that they would do something that dumb. So now my 3rd party ones are completely invalidated.

Has anyone actually bothered getting in touch with GW about the 3d printed masters for their resin miniatures?

>>96263120
... Why?

How am I going to kill all these tacticals.

>>96263132
You status them to stop them from scoring, or you hit them with AP3 pieplates. Phosphex does both

You will never be a real game designer macca. You have no talent, you have no IP, you have no panache. You are a fat man twisted by bitterness and nostalgia into a crude mockery of Alan Bligh.
All the “validation” you get is two-faced and half-hearted. Behind your back people mock you. Your discord members are disgusted and ashamed of you, your “friends” laugh at your ghoulish appearance behind closed doors.
Hobbyists are utterly repulsed by you. Thousands of years of evolution have allowed men to sniff out frauds with incredible efficiency. Even your legion rules who “pass” look uncanny and unnatural to a man. Your bias is a dead giveaway. And even if you manage to get a drunk guy to try your homebrew, he’ll turn tail and bolt the second he gets a look at your WS chart.
You will never be happy. You wrench out a fake smile every single morning and tell yourself it’s going to be ok, but deep inside you feel the depression creeping up like a weed, ready to crush you under the unbearable weight.
Eventually it’ll be too much to bear - you’ll buy a rope, tie a noose, put it around your neck, and plunge into the cold abyss. Your discord members will find you, heartbroken but relieved that they no longer have to live with the unbearable shame and disappointment. They’ll bury you with a headstone marked with your birth name, and every passerby for the rest of eternity will know a no games faggot is buried there. Your body will decay and go back to the dust, and all that will remain of your legacy is a skeleton that is unmistakably gay.
This is your fate. This is what you chose. There is no turning back.

>>96263079
>Kill MEQs
Dark furies
>Kill TEQs
Dark furies
>Kill AV14
Kill?

>>96263067
Thousand Sons are best as a second army, since their only significant contributions are the Battle of Prospero and the Siege of Terra. Death Guard fight against everything except Ultramarines and Blood Angels in the heresy.

What I'd do is collect Death Guard for most fights, Thousand Sons when up against Space Wolves, and Word Bearers for fighting Blood Angels and Ultramarines. You want total narrative accuracy. I'd say 3 4000 point armies, minimum. You probably want closer to 6000 points of each army. Don't buy from any recasters, though, I'd just buy 6000 points at once 3 times over the course of a few months

>>96263138
Based sable brand enjoyer

I just remembered that 30k daemon angron was either teased or released.
Did he have heresy 2.0 rules?

>>96263137
>Behind your back people mock you.
That's far too long of a walk, most just do it to his face

>>96263079
>tactical squads
>uhhh...other terminators???
>uhhh...a contemptor with a multi melta and the sponsons of the spartan

I only have an age of darkness box

>>96263144
No

>>96263120
You mean to complain about how shit they are?

>>96263144
I feel like his legs are spread too far apart

Have you even said "Thank you" to GW once since the Legacies pdf?
If not, reply with a "thank you GW". Failure to say thank you will reduce 3.0's planned life cycle by two weeks.

>>96263175
Thank you, GW, for releasing the legacies PDF
you have reminded me that no matter how bad I am at writing rules, at least you and macca are worse

>>96263175
>Failure to say thank you will reduce 3.0's planned life cycle by two weeks.
That cannot come soon enough.

>>96263071
After last thread became a 12b throne incident you know I had to.

>>96263192
Blessed Uma Chad

>>96263067
>>96263141
To continue: The best way to start each of these armies would be to buy a Saturnine boxed set. It has everything you need: Tactical Marines in MKII "Crusade" Armour - the most common in the heresy, fit for any battlefield! - a Centurion, the quintessential character for any Warhammer: The Horus Heresy army, and Vulkan's Gift: classic Saturnine Terminators, including a Praetor to lead your forces, as well as a massive, powerful Saturnine Dreadnought. There's also an Araknae Quad Accelerator Platform, perfect for defending backline objectives and scaring away any Flyers your opponent may bring! Best of all, we have plenty in the warehouses, so there's enough to buy 3 as the foundation for each of your Warhammer: The Horus Heresy armies. From there, expand each army to 6000 points, or even further if you'd like to have every option available for each army, so as to enhance your immersion and narrative experience. Cheers!

Rumor mill is big stores are forcing the return of their stock back to GW due to GW self sabotaging the release and that's why they're showing no stock.

Think it's legit?

So why don't SoH and WB have at least one corrupted RoW each?

>>96263213
They didn't do it for dominion I doubt they're doing it now
Mordian glory is not a good source for rumors

>>96263213
>Rumor mill
Just admit you saw it on a youtube video or tiktok.

Post models

>>96263219
>why is 3.0 missing obvious content
So you buy the journals. Same reason they original legacies PDF was 7 pages and the release PDF includes copy pasted references to journal content that isn't released yet.

Things were withheld for the purpose of later monetization.

>>96263244
>Same reason they original legacies PDF was 7 pages
It wasn't, Winters is just a retard that can't talk

>>96263240
Nothing new since my 20 new tacs are on the desk, so sorry for the repost.

I know tyrants are pretty dogshit but how about replacing their bolters with banestrike? For 50 pts more for a ten man squad you're getting 40 breaching (6) shots, could be pretty tasty.

>>96263226
NTA but after dominion, new options could have been added to avoid it.

>>96263256
do you think Power Fists work for squeezing too? Or do they only discharge the capacitors when actually punching?

>>96263219
>WB
The corrupted ROW is the general legion trait, no matter how much faggots try to tell you otherwise you can't play Loyalist word bearers

>SOH
Oy vey goyim you're not allowed to take possessed that's our thing

>>96263256
Drill your fucking barrells!!!

>Shrapnel bolt pistols are NOT Assault
FUCK. It's shit. The entire legion, units and wargear both, is shit. And it's French's fault. He mocks us from his high tower, ass un-raped...

>>96263310
they told you bro
they tried to warn you bro
why didn't you listen when you had the chance bro?

>>96263086
Every time I think of Lernean, a tiny memento mori whispers in my ear:
>They're not Justaerin. Nobody is...
Which is distressing, as I could have actual Justaerin indeed

>>96263300
>start drilling in yo barrel, twin

>>96263326
Lerneans are probably cheaper right?

>>96263206
Sorry James, you won't convince me to buy 3 shiturnine boxes

>>96263175
>>96263187
What fucking thank you? Shrapnel pistols aren't assault. Shrapnel bolters increased their cost, pinning is worse, and they lost rerolls and Fury of Olympia, on top of Tyrants halving their krak output. Fuck GW's whole rules team. And fuck macca, while we're at it.

How are Deredeos looking? It really feels like they should be BS5

Jokes aside, what makes Macca's rule bad?
I hate evil Valrak and want to know why his ruleset I'll never look at is shitty.

>>96263345
Are you not thankful for Shrapnel Pistols?
More, you wanted more you say.
But was there a "please??

>>96263354
Hurt by BS4, but still seem solid. All the guns are good, especially when you consider theyre skyfire. The S10 d4 lascannon looks scary.

>>96263300
No

>>96263356
His pet Iron Hands have like a 3 or 4+ FNP at all times. It’s the worst of those fanfic “my faction is great” homebrew.

>already assembled some guys as thousand sons
>no longer want to build the other guys as thousand sons

How do I make the other guys not thousand sons? Can't just strip them and call it a day, they're blinged out with thousand sons bits that I have to get off. Got boxes of 1k sons bits sitting around unused, now.

How the hell do you scrape off heads and bits from assembled models??

>>96263213
I think it more likely that GW is using the rate of returns due to the stupid way the box was packed damaging the mini sprues to "recall" all the leftover product, letting them save face with a plausible justification rather than admitting it's just an embarassment to have so much unsold stock sitting there, making the fact the release has been a colossal flop easily verifiable. That said I also think that if that excuse wasn't there, they would tough it out and refuse to accept overstock back - modern GW is utterly corporate, and the corporate world functions almost entirely on superficial appearance; without the recall justification, pulling in the overstock would require them to accept and at least tacitly acknowledge their failure and Dominion showed they will never ever do that.

>>96263249
>Oh yeah he just misspoke and missed the "two hundred and" part of "two hundred and seven"
Really? That's the line you shillfaggots are going with? lol, lmao

>>96263363
Yes. There was even prayer involved, actually, as I remember saying "Jesus fucking Christ, please!!"

>>96263380
3+ or 4+ FNP at all times
The fuck does he say to try justify that? What reasoning goes through his head.
He made a video bitching for 30 minutes when Vulkan beat his Manus in a fight too. What a faggot.

>>96263310
Probably a run of the mill fuck up
Spam their email about it

>>96263418
AHAHAHAHA

>>96263404
Winters refused to play the GSC codex in 9th because he couldn't grasp the concept of "draw a line between two units", he is absolutely retarded enough to stumble and say 7
Take however stupid you think he is, multiply it by 10, then double it again just to be safe

>>96263428
Wait, what's their email?

>>96263367
>skyfire
Though they'll never use them because a smart player will deploy behind LoS blocking and then just not shoot the deredeo later.

>>96263439
Isn't winters the guy who cheated several times with mechanicum and hid behind "sorry guys Mech is complicated haha, made a mistake teehee" despite every time people calling him out in the comments.

>>96263451
heresyfaq@gwplc.com

>>96263464
Yes but I genuinely believe at least half of it was actually him not getting how the rules worked because there was more than 2 lines of text

>>96263459
Deploy a flyer behind LoS blocker terrain? They can benefit from terrain cover??

>>96263395
schizo

>>96263466
Thanks, anon

Do you NEED melee in your army?

>>96263484
Np, just don't call them cunts or they won't take you seriously

>>96263256
At least do a black dot on the barrels so the guns look functional

>>96263464
>cheated several times with mechanicum
Didn't he also cheat on his wife? Maybe cheating is just his thing lmao

>>96263240
Augur squad base coated. Going to try to get them done for sunday's game.

>>96263389
You're fucked.

>>96263500
I don't know why only two of them having bayonets bothers me so much

>>96263389
Blood Ravens

>>96263389
Put the converted models in the freezer for a while after you strip them. Then snap off the bits and heads with a carefully applied sprue clipper to the joints

>>96263389
Allies, anon

>>96263389
It's over, anon, you're gonna collect thousand sons and YOU ARE GOING TO LIKE IT.

Since it’s super blurry in the Imgur, can someone tell me what Comptroller does in the mech book? A buddy told me bringing Tech Priests in Iron Pattern Cohort debuffs your units in that Auxilla Cohort.

>>96263464
He's played mechanicum wrong in different directions on multiple occasions. He also admits himself that he's stupid.

>>96263618
It basically gives line(X) to a unit if the majority of the unit DONT have the rule.

>>96263618
Comptroller gives you bonus victory points for controlling objectives if everyone in the unit has the same faction and majority non characters. What your buddy is likely talking about is the general ally penalty of -1 CL and LD if a character from a different faction is put in a unit

Interesting loadouts for jetbike units or jetbike command squads that isn't "Oops, all thunder hammers!"?

>>96263657
Power lances.

>>96263544
It was three until I saw I could sneak a rotor for pinning on demand.

>>96263640
Gotcha. Thank you

>>96263662
Generally speaking, why couldn't they just be breaching 6+? IM+1 is neat but base strength and always AP3 is unfortunate. What 3+ model are you going to precision?

Why don't all legions fight like the Death Guard? There's no Geneva Convention. Why is everyone else so gay?

>>96263699
>What 3+ model are you going to precision?
The enemy power weapon user? Go first, snipe their power weapons, win combat.

Going first is quite strong, so having it be the "weakest" power weapon in terms of raw damage seems fair.

>>96263707
Sometimes you need a location to not be a desolate wasteland. If you're bringing agri worlds or hive cities into the fold it helps that they stay functioning.

>be space roman
>do roman things
>brother does a roman decimation of his own troops for failure
>"NOOO YOU CAN'T DO THAT IT'S EVIL!!!! NOOOO!"

why was Guilliman such a sissy larper?

>>96263707
All legions had destroyer cadres and stuff like phosphex munitions, anon, some just got all sentimental about it (see Corax and especially Sanguinius). Well, unless you're Salamanders, in which case you don't have destroyers and just napalm everything instead while pretending that makes you a better person (and also still use phosphex munitions)

>>96263728
Because he is roman (based, stoic) and both perturabo and angron are roman (cringe, whiny)

When Forges of Saturn journal sloptica will be released, by your estimation?

>>96263740
>chemical warfare? No way. That shit's unethical.
>Phosphex? Well, phosphex is fire. Fire is good. That reminds me, I need to order my troops to drop more promethium on that nearby enemy trench network.

>day one patch
>didn't even fix the game
>"each Journal Tactica will be 48 pages"
>Tactica #1 is Istavaan V pt 1
>the cover is thicker than the pages
So is GW nostalgia baiting /v/ermin as well?
2012 called, they want their dev cycle back.

I'm using this head in Horus Heresy, and you are powerless to stop me.

>>96263779
what the fuck is that

>>96263779
Cool, could be good for a master of signals

>>96263777
I refuse to believe people are still buying rulebooks after 2005.

>>96263740
They didn't like phosphex either, but that rules long gone now. Can't have fluffy rules that limit what stuff people can bu- I mean, how much fun and creativity people can have. Couldn't sell WS legion dreadnought bits if we upheld the old stuff about them not liking dreads.

>>96263779
The worst of the primaris heads are so goofy they kind of work for specialists

>>96263326
What about stealing a Huscarl retinue?

>>96263808
>Couldn't sell WS legion dreadnought bits if we upheld the old stuff about them not liking dreads.

Oh looks it's that "legion are as monolithic as me" retard again.

>>96263779
*unsheathes hammer*

>>96263777
You clearly werent around for the 2012 GW dev cycle. Day 1 patches are a gift from the gods compared to the alternative.

>>96263825
If you don't like the rules of your legion, play a different legion.

>>96263808
Oh. Well, this just reinforces how much of a hypocritical faggot Vulkan is, if he was willing to burn people to death but using phosphex (which is just super duper green fire) is "too much!!"

I struggle to listbuild

just tell me a list of generic units for 3k as a base and i'll work off that

>>96263120
It was brought up long ago when they released the resin cast adeptus titanicus mechanicum knights.
There were very obvious mold lines from the 3d print in the casts. When the individual (who bought like 12, and they were like 80 bucks for two) asked for a refund, he was informed by GW that this was just the standard they produced the models, and no refund or new models could be given.
It raised a shit storm

>>96263762
I hate this picture like you wouldn’t believe.

>>96263367
> Single shot skyfire missiles
Lmao

>>96263851
or another edition

>>96263762
See >>96263808. It's more.

>I SURE DO LOVE BURNING PEOPLE TO DEATH
>CHEMICAL WARFARE? RAD-WEAPONS? PHOSPHEX! HOW INHUMANE!!!

>>96263832
You mean when they went through all of 7th without an FAQ, caused the formation of the ITC to balance the game so it was tournament playable without every game devolving into house rules so it could function and then finally released an FAQ for all of 7th 6months before 8th?

>>96263899
>Praetor
>Centurion
>Tacticals

That's how every army should start. Technically you can use other officers instead of a Centurion but Cent unlocks two aux detachments instead of one so it's less of an HQ tax. After that you can pick and choose depending on what units you like or are favored by your legion. For example
>Armored fist
Rhinos and LRs, good if you're doing 10 man tac spam (very viable) or want LRs to move your big melee units around
>Army vanguard
Your various termies are here, you probably want a LR for them
>The tank one
I forgot the exact name, armorued support or something like that, but all your predators, sicarans, etc go here.

Almost every detachment has some prime slots, so just pick one unit for each and give them the upgrade you like the most. Make your sarge killier in melee, give the unit better mental stats, etc

>>96263898
I mean, we've outlawed chemical and radiological weapon from warfare, but still use incendiary weapons. We just say we use them against materiel instead of people.

>HoO detachment disappears from New Recruit today
But why?

>>96263832
It is [current year] and post the Coof, your personal time and money are more precious than ever. Meanwhile, GW is LARPing Square Enix after FF14 1.0 cratered financials.

It feels nice to get raped :)

Is the Araknae any good?

>>96263930
Among other things, yes. The GW that releases errata and faq to answer and fix things is better than the one that lets something murder an edition.

Do you like my vexila?

>>96263960
Mass murder should be as painless as possible or we might end up quitting war altogether for fear of agony and suffering.

>>96264062
I like his flesh apron. I imagine he cooks up a mean steak for his squad after engagements :)

Anyone got a decent 3d printed predator tank?
I'm tired of waiting for the lascannon one to be back in stock

Funni note: Your opponent cannot Slay the Warlord if you don't select a High Command model.

>>96263899
>Praetor
>Centurion
>2x10 tacs or despoilers
>2x rhinos
Is a good foundation and runs 520 pts without upgrades

>>96263779
that's a Master of Signals

>>96264062
I have mixed feelings about the rough wooden haft but I like it overall.

>>96264062
awesome model, though I don't know how "random dead guy" represents their legion

So destroyers
are we thinking more in rhinos or with jump packs right now?

>>96264133
Rhinos seem really good this edition

>>96264133
Both.
>Captcha DADW8
>I can't, son. Warcrimes wait for no one.

>>96264133
I think jump packs. They dont like rhino-rushing since theyre really reliant on volley fire (which you dont get if you disordered).
Jump packs are only 3ppm more, so 30ppm for a unit (cheaper than a rhino) and while you might get shot on the approach you are a lot scarier overall.

>>96264133
I'm putting 10 Mortalis in an storm eagle and taking 10 assault next game.

>>96264161
>I'm putting 10 Mortalis in an storm eagle
Why only 10? The eagle seats 16.

>>96264172
They only go to 10 and have bitter duty. Though my opponent would be good putting a Moritat in. Might add my jump pack one so he can fuck off on his own after.

>one ultramarine delegatus unlocking a squad of veteran Breachers, veteran tactical, veteran assaults, and veteran supports with a land Raider party bus for him and his retinue of Breachers
Fuck that actually sounds like a fun and fluffy allied Detachment

>>96264151
Is disordered no volley fire? I thought it was just no setup move

>>96264039
Anyone?

>>96264211
Its both.

>>96264211
No volley fire (from you, enemy can still do it fine), no set up move, and nothing that triggers off charges, it's basically just a raw dog charge to get into combat

>>96264218
>>96264214
that makes the choice easy then

>>96264039
At what?

Its going to buttfuck most flyers, is reasonably tough and puts out a good number of autocannon shots.
Its also immobile and limited by every issue autocannons have (cant At)

Like everything except the tacticals in the saturnine box, its a situational tool. Good for a specific task, not a no-brainer.

Why the hell are the TS sniper squad bs5 (and corvidae) for just ten points more than stock.

Also how do raven guard and especially alpha Legion not have an equivalent? Mor Deythan and effrit are more like veteran tacticals than they are dedicated snipers, and they're far more expensive than recons

>>96264337
Don't AL have a legion-specific seeker unit too? Aside from the effrit guys which are IIRC more shotgun lads than anything

>>96263742
Fulgrim was roman (Elagabalus)

Is anyone else just kind of...deflated? I mean look, I see a lot of the issues with 3.0 and the whole handling of the launch was a disaster, but I thought I might at least give it a proper read through and see if it's house-ruleable but...fuck me, I've read Russian philosophical poetry that's less of a slog. Especially given that now we're probably on the 3/4 year cycle, by any attempt to fix the game gets anywhere close to functional it will likely be made worthless when GW upend the applecart yet again. But I thought oh well I can at least go back and try to fix one of the previous editions right, it's not like I get to game that much anyway so switching to persuading other grogs to play Heresy with me a few times a year won't be that big a change, but jeezo what a mess they both are. For different reasons sure, but fucksake. And worse not everyone can even agree on what the issues are, so it won't be a Mordheim situation where even if this group or that group's houserules differ a little they're all targeting the same handful of issues that everyone knows are the problem, it'll be wildly different from person to person not just in terms of how they want to fix things but also what even needs fixing in the first place.

I'm tired, boss.

>>96263494
You're mixing up your hobbydrama, that was MidwinterMinis, and to be fair we don't even actually know he *cheated* per se(his wife may have implied that quite strongly, but jilted hags are hardly the most unbiased source of info on their own dumping), just that he left his wife & new kids to shack up with their channel intern/assistant.

>>96264337
Because we're better than you. FAGGOT

>>96264132
it was one guy his whole squad really REALLY hated

>>96263779
>Oh no I've accidentally knocked your model off the table oh god I'm so sorry
>OH NO I've completely unintentionally stepped on the model when it was lying on the floor I'm so clumsy my apologies
>OH ME OH MY I've utterly without malice done a 720 pirouette while still standing on the model I accidentally knocked over and unintentionally stood on crushing it to tiny little mangled pieces my deepest regrets and apologies oh dear
Powerless am I, Primarishart?

>>96264337
Mor deythan are absolutely dedicated snipers? They go BS7 for critical hits on their fatal strike.

>>96264352
Headhunters can't take sniper rifles and are frankly much worse than seeker at anything except being a melts suicide squad.

I mentioned effrit because they can all take Nemesis bolters (bringing a five man group to 175, same as mor Deythan with snipers) while the Occult Intercession Cabal gets support unit(2) like a normal recon and most importantly the corvidae trait to make any 5+ to hit breach automatically.

>>96264382
I think you're a wuss who is allowing their insecurities to inject made up victimhood into their imagination

>>96263728
Because Perturabo did it over not fitting his standards rather than because it was a mutiny.

>>96264438
I feel like comparing ANYTHING in the game to corvidae breaching is unfair atm, since it's obviously incredibly overpowered compared ot everything else in the game. Are Headhunters also bad compared to basic bitch seekers?

>>96264433
You're right, I had forgotten due to the fact the only mor Deythan I've ever seen on the board were people doing the cancerous rending Volkite bomb with complimentary void darts.

It's still insane they're 30 pts more than the cabal imo.

>>96264337
Gr8 b8 m8 no h8

What if I use a legion specific unit as a reward of treachery and paint it in the scheme of a third legion

>>96264060
I actually completely disagree. The tournamentization of GW's games has been disastrous because it has curated a fanbase that thinks it's GW's job to manage their own communities for them and so anything that's technically allowed by GW is completely kosher. The game and the playerbase in general were better when GW took years to address an issue and never even acknowledged it had existed, when communities managed their own experience by inflicting bullying, shame, and if necessary completely ostrasization on people who took the piss, and tournament gamers were rightly regarded as subnormal stankmonsters who played together because nobody else was stupid enough to tolerate their heinous presence.

>>96264461
The cabal are 1w 4+ save scouts, mor deythan are 2w in power armor.

>>96264438
Anon you know support unit is a *downside* right

>>96263817
>4++, EW1, D2 melee weapon
I can't believe they're even hardier than Firedrakes. Literally why

>>96264483
Its not hard being hardier than firedrakes given the latter are just a ws5 cata terminators. Huscarls, morlocks and deathwing companions are all more durable.

>>96264458
>Are Headhunters also bad compared to basic bitch seekers?

At this point it feels like an Apples Vs Oranges situation. Headhunters feel more like a basic infantry choice rather than some elite sniper team now. They're essentially just trying to leverage the fact that Banestrikes have 4 shots and Breaching (6+) and that their Precision (4+) is tied to the model not the gun, so you can dump a Precision MultiMelta in there to occaisionally pop unit leaders and embedded characters.

Seekers and Recons are snipers. Headhunters have subscribed to the Ork method of Sniper accuracy through superior dice pools.

>>96264458
For 20 pts more than seekers you get much worse guns and a power dagger + hatred (command)... Which won't matter because they're all 1a now (except for the Sgt).

They have a use when loaded up with combi meltas and a multi-melta for anti tank or killing well armoured HQs but you're pumping a lot of points into a unit that won't survive more than 1 turn.

>>96264382
Pro tip, stop letting others tell you how you feel and stop being dependant on a product. You can control all of this.

>>96264442
Buddy if you're going to try to bait someone, you need to at least pretend you understand their actual point; without the kernel of truth, nobody will believe the ridiculous lie. Try again once you've lurked a while, maybe try practicing over on /lgbt/ they're dead easy to trigger for newbs.

>>96264472
You're right, my bad. They're 2 wounds but I missed the 4+.
>>96264481
Yes, but support(2) is better than support(1) because most objectives are worth 2vp.

>>96264337
they're bs5 but the precision is still on 4+ so the upgrade isn't that useful

>>96264535
Hitting with 20% more of your shots is still a great damage output buff (Looking at you IF players)

>>96264431
>Man suffers heart attack trying to stomp toy.

40 Death Guard tactical marines DONE. Waiting for a decal sheet to arrive in the mail so I can get them on and weather up the shoulder pads above them, but I am happy to have these dudes out the way.
Painted the core of the army before anything else so now I can move onto some fancier stuff. I'm torn between a 10 man auto cannon team or a 10 man sword 'n board command squad.

>>96264579
That might be the best use of a tactical rock I've seen so far, sarge looks really impressive

>>96264579
Hell yeah

>>96264579
>>96264585
agree, whole set looks great but the little flourishes on the sarge really stand out i like that stripe

>>96264585
>>96264616
Cheers anons. The first sgt was one of the first 5 I built and painted, rock guy was part of the last 5. You can tell I got far more into the project and put more effort into the second guy.
I might end up painting like 10 more dudes with extra wargear, vexillas, nuncio voxes, extra sgts etc so I can run them as smaller squads too. I'll put more effort into the other leaders if I do.

>>96264634
Are the bases meant to look like a wheat field? Because it fits the scythes and the legion lore in general

>>96264414
Their former sergeant?

>>96264414
YES! This was ther old lieutrnant. He accidentally died from friendly fire. He was a dick

>>96264483
We talking about Deathwing Companions?

>>96264665
Let me guess. He asked them to stop raping for five fucking seconds.

>>96264517
But effrits dont have support unit, and mor deythan are about equal snipers since fatal strike is better than the corvidae power on the turn it's active and they're not vulnerable to AP4

Am I tripping balls or did we see rules for Saturnine Centurions (coming soon in Journal AI Sloptica 2) already somewhere?

>>96264566
you're free to think that
I tend to think
>what is the unit's purpose?
to kill characters and pin
>does the upgrade help in that role?
no

I will therefore spend the 40 points elsewhere

>>96264579
>scythes
SOVLFVL and fluffpilled

>>96264696
Not yet as far as I know, but warcom spoiled that next one has
>sat centurion
>sat command
>WB sats
>new TS arcana for sats

What are good (marine) tank options for killing marines? Predators with the plasma gun, maybe?

>>96264678
Disregarding the fact both of those units cost 30 pts more, most objectives are 2 vp so not having support unit doesn't matter too much for effrit, who are otherwise lacking in special abilities aside from the hydras wail, which is too close of a range for a sniper squad. I love effrit, I use them often, but their whole kit is based on close range.

I had forgotten about the crit interaction of higher BS, that does make more
Deythan pretty insane during the go turn.
Mor Deythan are honestly probably as good or better than the occult cabal, I appreciate the corrections.

I guess I just wish AL had a good sniper squad - though rewards of treason exists for a reason, it would make sense that all the elite snipers of the legion would be infiltrated in the elite sniper squads of other legions

>>96264718
Graviton Cannon I feel is good too, less killy because of small blast but it can pin so probably better for if you want to go for a more supportive weapon

>>96263779
Tbh if you stick a tube in the grill not as many people will sperg out.
Helmet reminds me of the Praevian.

>>96264718
Predator Plasma is lovely, yes. If you want to reliably pop 2W 2+ save gits too, Sicaran Arcus is king.

ALL THE BOOKS. Please Update the next OP

HH 3.0 AoD Rulebook Raw
magnet:?xt=urn:btih:bvkv4k7yohqdg4rr6ys7t3lkujvterda&dn=HH%203.0%20AoD%20Rulebook%20Raw.pdf&xl=249771097&fc=1

HH 3.0 Liber Astartes Raw
magnet:?xt=urn:btih:pi4wtfms4bs2ckolvvuycx47vyvajx56&dn=HH%203.0%20Liber%20Astartes%20Raw.pdf&xl=185773119&fc=1

HH 3.0 Liber Hereticus Raw
magnet:?xt=urn:btih:thm72vtcxk5sm46m65irn3j3qtstwmna&dn=HH%203.0%20Liber%20Hereticus%20Raw.pdf&xl=205029541&fc=1

HH 3.0 Liber Auxilia Raw
magnet:?xt=urn:btih:fcqjojdpiattdhuqcqr2id4kpmkrxnik&dn=HH%203.0%20Liber%20Auxilia%20Raw.pdf&xl=81630622&fc=

HH 3.0 Liber Mechanicoom Raw
magnet:?xt=urn:btih:37zeb2qgqwi3z2e7bxq2uqjsk7jk4vz6&dn=HH%203.0%20Liber%20Mechanicum%20Raw.pdf&xl=72370480&fc=1

HH 3.0 Liber Questoris Raw
magnet:?xt=urn:btih:jorwnzhm7aephmre2qnntos7i2kbiu7o&dn=HH%203.0%20Liber%20Questoris%20Raw.pdf&xl=63737244&fc=1

HH 3.0 Journal Tactica Dropsite P1 Raw
magnet:?xt=urn:btih:ioletn7jukhevodt6gokzmtjq5gmyjjk&dn=HH%203.0%20Journal%20Tactica%20Dropsite%20P1%20Raw.pdf&xl=29456604&fc=1

>>96264718
Heavy Conversion Beamer predator is fucking scary desu

I know nobody actually owns an infernus abomination besides me but holy shit they ruined this guy
wtf is he supposed to kill with that weapon?
who thought losing all focus bonus for one wound back was even worth typing?

>>96263779
I'm going to use this for my Master of Descent, but I will act as if I've never heard of primaris marines before. As if they were made up.

>>96264718
sicaran omega

Graviton Gun, melta gun, or lascutter on veteran Breacher squads?

>>96264071
>A cruel war ends sooner
The Blitz didn't break London, flattening Dresden only made the Germans redouble their efforts, and all Japan's war crimes managed to do was to unify China against them.
Seems all "cruel" wars achieve is to "prove" the enemy right: "we were right in denouncing the evils of our foe, look how savage they are – we can no longer surrender, for surrender means certain extinction". No?
Just killing them all as fast as possible might be the better aim

>>96264085
>Bring several Delegatii
>Enemy can now score Slay the Warlord multiple times
;__;

>>96264185
Can't believe Moritats went from "can now attach to other units" to "can no longer be with Destroyers". This shit is upside down

>>96263079
>Medusas
>Medusas
>Medusas

Seems like a pretty straight forward plan.

>>96264923
You can only bring one delegatus, but also you can only score slay the warlord one

>>96263898
There are issues with using phosphex beyond it just being a terrible way to die. Stuff like how it may burn without oxygen, it seeming to spread as if it has a preference for people over inanimate objects, and how it contaminates the areas where it's used. The Promethean teachings are all about how fire is good when it's controlled and how it's a cleansing agent rather than a corrupting one. Dying by regular fire is still a terrible way to go, but the Sallies' preference for fire has never been about minimizing the suffering of their adversaries.

>>96264915
>using Guilliman for advocating at swift deaths.
based. G-Man actually hated using cruel methods unless it was necessary.

>>96264494
you win the award for biggest retard in the thread

Firedrakes are better than being "ws5 cataphracts" in every category.
In addition to WS5 they have 3 attacks each not 2, they shrug off powerfists/lascannons/thunderhammers which only wound on 3+ now, they shrug off dmg2 volkite/plasma megablasters which do 50% reduced damage, they get shields unlike the cata retinue so T6 on demand for to halve the damage of S4 disintegrator crap squads, they're ld9 instead of 8 and ignore all panic from flamers not even only the modifiers just no testing at all to sit on objective. Vanguard(4) instead of zero vanguard/zero line on cataphract retinue, they get a sick +3 initiative with thunderhammer gambit to smash vanvet duelist types or just use their only-wounded on 3+ to abuse dmg3 Finishing Blow obliterating EW1 terminator companions. The squad is a dirt cheap 45 points per amazing firedrake while cataphract ret costs 50 points per thunderhammer/pfist or 40 for some shitty power weapon weakling.

And when each retinue has their character, Lion has about a 1% chance of ever surviving a duel with Vulkan, who is the best fighting primarch in the entire game point for point since he somehow costs 465 while Horus costs 530/850. Beating up Horus, Vulkan is +1 initiative over babyHorus using his gigaHammer, ends up still beating Horus even through WS8 because EW3 vs EW2 means he has a whole tier Brutal above Horus all the time (every single hit Vulkan lands is a critical hit skipping toughness, autowounding Horus and doing each doing +100% wounds to Horus (2w base, or 3w with finishing blow beyond eternal warrior.) While Horus crits for 1W and must get Finishing gambit to ever do 2W. Vulkan just heals 2 of his 7 wounds back each time Horus manages to win the 4initiative vs 5initiative and get Finishing Blow to do more than tickles). Horus S10 wounds Vulkan on 3+ while Vulkan autowounds. Vulkan mops any primarch but a 2000 point ascended star your army stalls 4 turns.

For peak IW autismo should I copy this livery for my Saturnine?

Do you think they'll ever add in melee options for the Sattie dread? At the very least they need basic bitch dread power fists, but since their deal is "weird experimental weapons" maybe they could have like, a power wrecking ball or some kind of short range arc projector

>>96265037
Naturally.

>>96265053
Is that your model? I heard it has an empty slot on its back, between the shoulders and behind the head. Looks like a slot for a weapon to go onto.
Potentially they'll make another variant with a ranged weapon there and melee fists?

>>96265053
Maybe then I will consider buying it

>>96265037
Not a bad alt scheme

>>96264675
No, he was raping pointlessly. Because remember, terror is not the goal, it's the means.

>>96265084
No, it's not mine. By empty slot, do you mean the one on top of the shoulder between the two "canisters"? because that's where the shoulders slot in

>>96265053
don't know or care. Leviathan dreadnought exists to do that. Pussies are forgeworld simply made the leviathan kit too small because they're cowards.

>>96265097
depends on how far into the timeline you are. Pretty sure that by the time Horus turned raping had become the end goal rather than the means.

>>96265022
>In addition to WS5 they have 3 attacks each not 2
As do every other WS5 cata terminators (like command squads, justaerin, cenobium, lerneans, varangyr, morlocks, huscarls, dominators...)

>they shrug off powerfists/lascannons/thunderhammers which only wound on 3+ now
As would a salamander command squad.

>shrug off volkite/plasma/melta megablasters
There is like one D2 volkite gun and its not going for fucking terminators.

>they get shields unlike the cata retinue so T6 on demand
Which is irrelevant because the weapons they care about already wound them on 3s and will continue wounding them on 3s with the shields.

>they're ld9 instead of 8 and ignore all panic from flamers
Like a normal salamander command squad then.

>they have vanguard
Yes, theyre a command squad (ws5 terminators) with vanguard. But vanguard doesent make them fight any better now does it?

>they get a sick +3 initiative with thunderhammer gambit to smash vanvet duelist types or just use their only-wounded on 3+ to abuse dmg3 Finishing Blow obliterating EW1 terminator companions.
Gambits are only for challenges dumbass. And "only wounded on 3+" is a functional 20% damage reduction, eternal warrior(1) is a 50% damage reduction. Deathwing companions with thunder hammers absolutely clown on firedrakes.

>The squad is a dirt cheap 45 points per amazing firedrake while cataphract ret costs 50 points per thunderhammer/pfist
They also get a gun.

>>96265037

>>96265022
>firedrakes are so good because vulkan is good and can go in the unit
oh man, that sure showed everyone, truly only the strongest terminators can rely on a primarch babysitting them

>>96265022
>Vulkan
The more I read his rules the more I think that they are broken beyond belief.

>>96265159
>ignoring every other part of the post
NTA but you're being intentionally obtuse

>>96265071
stripes

>>96265178
The rest of the post is just trying to use generic salamander benefits to try and gas up firedrakes and a particularly comical rules-abortion where he suggests the *unit* use a gambit to become d3 to better deal with eternal warrior opponents.

>>96263728
The issue Roboute had was 1) he had worked with a lot of the IW before Pert Plus Lord of autism took over 2) the decimation wasn't targeted against particularly under performing units it was just everyone 3) Roboute saw it as wasteful. A 'suboptimal' Astartes is still better than 50 normal soldiers (at least)

>>96264496
>>96264497
Are Headhunters really that bad? I think Banestrike combis are very similar to Seeker bolters damage wise (Seekers got more utility), and better against 3+ saves (meh).
But they do get Precision on their combis(-Meltas), which Seekers don't get.
Also, as Precision is on themselves instead of their weapons, doesn't this mean they went from three dagger attacks to a single one, but with Precision 4+? 10 of them can do up to 0.6 wounds to a Centurion anon wow!!! Not like these kind of units should be in melee anyways...

>>96263066
Yes, banestrike is cool and fun.

>>96263078
No. Bolters are able to use different types of ammunition, don't need a completely different gun for that. I refuse to entertain GW's jewish greed and British gunlet behaviour.

>>96265222
>No. Bolters are able to use different types of ammunition,
Dont care. Giant barrel banestrikes look cooler and scarier.

>>96263137
Anon reveals himself as a true neurodivergent with a smidge of theatrical personality.

Good on you. Here's your (You).

>>96265178
>>96265171
>>96265022
So the GRIMDARKIES are the OP ones this ed?

>>96265220
I'm not even sure if combi-meltas are wirth it on most most cases now. They're worse vs vehicles, and if you want to shoot termies you probably jsut want like, disintegrators instead

>>96265266
Vulkan is overtuned and theyre good at hero-hammer. Thats about it.

>>96265266
Yes, but the Persian/Egyptian ones

Do you think they will redo all of the primarch models that havent already got a new HH model?

( fulgrim ascended.etc.)

I think a siege of terra Dorn or a flaming legion of the damned Ferrus manus would go pretty hard

>>96265290
Ahriman going out of his way to 1) piss off Lucius, then 2) recruit Lucius, and 3) trusting Lucius to not fuck him over, is still the most retarded thing he's ever done.

>>96264405
He certainly got divorced and shacked up with his employee instantly so...

>>96265292
The Legion of the Damned Ferrus thing is never ever, it's just a fan theory without any real lore backing. Besides, didn't the Legion of the Damned only show up post HH? They were a succesor chapter to one of the legions originally. They might still redo Ferrus eventually since they know it'd sell. probably a version with an option Fulgrim's sword to recreate their battle, maybe bare fists as well

>>96265292
>legion of the damned Ferrus manus
I don't like it.

>>96265266
Them and TS I think lead the pack by a mile.

>>96265229
If you want to use them because you think they look cool, that's fine. But don't take them or enforce other people to use them purely because GW named them Banestrike© Combi-bolters©

>>96265319
I personally like the old version, if only because it is the easiest to replace his thunder hammer with a steel folding chair...

For reasons...

>>96265117
It does sound AL should steal Termie Companions, then Huscarls, then Justaerin, then...idk, their own Lerneans? Tied on 3rd spot with actual Cataphractii command, but rule of cool (Hatred does little for them).
Fuck, Termie Companions are just so good. Either you have WS5 TH EW terminators or you don't, simple as that. Rip Deathshroud

>>96265283
Great arsenal, great prime, very nice reaction and good gambit.
They're not "just" good at hero hammer. they excel at tanking wounds (in both CC and Shooting) and have some of the best CC wargear one could hope for. (Dmg 3 powerfist 1nd +1 attack TH anyone ?)
They are top dogs and that's pretty clear.

>>96265271
>if you want to shoot termies you probably jsut want like, disintegrators
Why would I want a gun that wounds on a 5+ and bounces off the armour 5 out of 6 times, to kill terminators? It'd sooner kill the bearer than the "target"

Assembling 5 Custodes has been so much harder than it should be

>>96265370
You take the heavier disintegrator weapons to kill terminators, the ones that have str 6 or higher, AP 2 and 2 damage.

>>96265222
>Bolters are able to use different types of ammunition, don't need a completely different gun for that.
Oof, if only. I don't think I'll even try to email them to try and convince them. I'll just add Banestrike as an ammo option instead of as a gun. Fuck them.

>>96265319
>>96265326
> without any lore backing

Literally from master of mankind : "Shapes raged in the flames – shadows and suggestions doing battle with the daemons, their fiery forms indistinct and ever-changing. The fire-born avatars of fallen Ten Thousand, knee-deep in psychic fire and thrusting with lances of flame. The silhouettes of Space Marines, the betrayed dead of Isstvan bearing axes and blades and claws; half-seen sigils of slaughtered Legions obscured by the ash of their blackened armour. A giant among giants, its great hands bared and ready as it seared forwards at the crest of the tidal fire. The tenth son of a dying empire, so briefly reborn in his father’s immolating wrath."

>>96265352
>Great arsenal
For herohammer, yes. All their unique weapons are locked to sgts and characters.
>, very nice reaction
Yup. Its their 2e reaction
>prime
FNP6+ for a troops unit is good, but its also "for a troops slot", so there really isnt much you can do with it.
>good gambit
Its okay. Not one of the higher tier ones imo.
>They're not "just" good at hero hammer
Sure, theyre generally solid because their legion trait is just very solid, but they only really excel at herohammer.
>and have some of the best CC wargear one could hope for. (Dmg 3 powerfist 1nd +1 attack TH anyone ?)
Absolutely, but thats once again "herohamemr", they cant give all their vets that shit (nor would they really be able to afford it desu). Its their old gimmick of master crafting turned up to 11.

Sallies are very strong, maybe a little bit overtuned even (well, certainly overtuned in the case of vulkan), but theyre not "OP", Theyre a legion that is now very good at the big deathstar facemash due to having strong characters and a solid legion trait, and is just "okay" in other areas (thanks to their solid legion trait). Their aux detachkment is pretty good I guess.

>>96265380
Women are always difficult for no good reason.

>>96265391
Awright, now that's what I'm talking about! Say, how many can I take on the unit?

>>96265339
I will enforce them to my limited ability because they look cool and everyone should use them because they look cool.

>>96263240
getting ready to get blown up by rapiers turn 1

>>96265408
that's the spirit!

>>96265351
Yea, if youre going to steal something steal varangyr or justaerin or huscarls/morlocs/companions (or one of the weird ones like contekar or paladins), not a unit that would just be a vanguard command squad for you.

Lerneans have the very nice benefit of line (and a conversion beamer).

Now that the dust has settled, post your illegal models that weren't saved by Legacies.

>>96265405
Ten if you take the veteran support squad from legacies. Twelve if you build saturnine terminators dual wielding them.

>>96265429
Magos with 2 guns and jetpack magos.

So I was getting assfucked the other day, and I started thinking: what if the legion specific units got done up in plastic?

>>96265429
I would post the forge lord with conversion beamer that I had build during 1.0 which never got rules in 2.0, but it's still too depressing to look at the pics.

>>96265171
keep Vulkan's stats but make him cost 600-700 not 465. Brutal 3-4 is just as broken overpowered as in last edition. The heal2 wounds power is more overpowered than it sounds because that's +2 initiative each time since each wound on a character slows them.

Leaves Vulkan not even same weight class vs anyone but GodHorus.

Konrad in7 is cool, but still gets stomped because he can never get brutal against Vulkan (dmg4 finishing cap vs EW3) while Vulkan easily juices his 6W EW2. 5+ FNP gambit option sorta comparable to vulkan's free 2 wounds healed back, just vulkan's hammer hits 2-3x harder.

Angron can hit Dmg5 when the stars align but only on crit6+, every other hit has no brutal vs EW3. If Vulkan gets Finishing Angron is instantly done with Vulk's brutal 5 vs EW2 and vulkan taking 1 wound max. If Vulkan instead does the 2x heal once or twice, he always ends up striking first to execute Angron at the end of the fight.

Guilliman same cost, D3 fist has no crit and in3 instead of in5 of vulkan/ferrus hammers. 6 wounds with no heal instead of 7. EW2 vs EW3.

Ferrus at same cost gets the same brutal giga hammer but 6W EW2 instead of 7W EW3 means constantly less than half the survivability even without Vulkan healing up.

Morty is tanky, but he's only dealing 1 damage vs EW3. Both crit 6+ but it's impossible for Morty to brutal Vulk, while Vulkan finisher caps at 2 wounds every blow vs Morty, and Morty loses initiative harder every round til inevitable death.

Lorgar's hammer is good against everyone except Vulkan, where his terrible WS6 means every hit is a crit with Dmg4-5, but EW3 means 1 wound suffered unless Lorgar gets Finishing blow (which often loses Lorgar the Focus roll so he can't Finishing next turn, and this turn Vulkan just heals to be essentially 9 wounds) Lorgar dies.

Magnus gets no brutal vs vulkan without Finishing Blow, ruining his initiative, and Vulkan keeps healing or Finishing, Magnus limps out first each time.

>>96265429
rest in piss nullificators

>>96265053
Explicitly no, they already said it's a gun platform to not interfere with the leviathan.

>>96265430
>Ten if you take the veteran support squad from legacies
Yeeeeah. Fuck you, Destroyeeeeers!

>>96265490
Until they grow hungry and don't give a fuck anymore

>>96264936
Email them. It's clearly a mistake. Boss Outcast is still an outcast and likely more insufferable than standard destroyers.

>>96265464
* essentially, Vulkan is in the same position as GodHorus, with every non-busted primarch having to flee in terror 100% of the time. Except Vulkan is 465 not 850 points, so unlike GodHorus Vulkan also gets to bring a 14/14/14 Kratos gigaMelta + 8 damage of steady lascannons tank to march behind him if the enemy doesnt approach him and keep popping every enemy tank and just sit on center objective to win the game.

GodHorus instead is so super-expensive you just bury him in 4 turns worth of Malefic unbreakable troopers. But at Vulkan's price he can afford horde clearer backup.

>>96264788
OP already has OCR scans and clickable index

>>96265398
I don't like it.

>>96265292
Hopefully not. We need fewer Primarchs. They shouldn't even be playable.

>>96263079
>meqs
Achillus, should mulch most of a 10 man between shooting, volley, and melee.
>teqs
Achillus, though big pf command squads + characters, or eternal warrior and fnp can fuck you up.
>av14
Achillus, should kill a cerberus or spartan, but probably not a glaive unless you shoot it in the ass.

>>96265445
Ok that's clever and sick as hell. Would let play 10/10.

>>96265429
So many consuls. I already posted my Chaplain with fist and Crozium last thread. The box lock for HQs is stupid and I will allow any opponent to take 2.0 options.

Now that there's an HQ tax for detachments, which officers do you feel like are the best for most lists? Obviously you want a praetor, and probably a centurion, but what else? You probably won't be running that many melee beatstick units so taking more melee officers feels like a waste, but others like a MoS or Siege breaker are only good if you run specific builds. Do you just take chaplains and chuck them in your 20 tactical bricks to sit and cap all day?

>>96265292
there's no such thing as Legion of the Damned Ferrus, so never. Dorn never changes so no point in redoing him.
Jaghatai Jetbike is the only actual remake that's MANDATORY and crucial.
Wolf spear Russ is very unimportant but one alt loadout.
Ferrus Mannus wielding Fireblade instead of the hammer which he gave to Fulgrim would be an option, but unlikely as GW only uses the stupid artwork with Ferrus swinging the hammer which he gave to Fulgrim. This is especially stupid as when they fought on the ship, "Instead he took the wondrous weapon that he had once crafted in brotherhood for Ferrus as a reminder of their former friendship, and left behind Fireblade, which Ferrus had forged for him."
So Ferrus wasn't even armed with a hammer at Istvaan 5.
"The two Primarchs leapt at one anther, Ferrus wielding Fireblade and Fulgrim holding Forgebreaker. Their weapons had been forged in brotherhood, but were now wielded in vengeance, meeting in a blazing plume of energy. The two Primarchs traded blows with their monstrously powerful weapons, Ferrus Manus wielded his flaming blade in fiery slashes, his every blow defeated by the ebony hafted hammer he had borne in countless campaigns."
The official model for Ferrus duel is fucking wrong. But they're unlikely to release a Ferrus with his flaming sword.

>>96265538
Praetor + 2 Centurions or Praetor + Delegatus + Centurion. It also depend a lot on your Legion.SoH can spam a lot more elites and heavy assault, Thousand Sons can field heavy assault AND land raiders in one detachment, etc.

>>96265292
Ferrus reborn is dumb, capeshit level of cope to sell toys. Terrible idea.

Librarian. Psychic powers are always useful.

>>96265518
Good news! The author himself confirmed that it wasn't Ferrus or the Legion of the Damned and that it was, in fact, a manifestation of the Emperor's psychic will that took the form of Manus. It was the Emperor doing wizard shit in the form of a golem shaped like Manus.

As always, the LotD are fire hawks and 40k exclusive, and always will be. Capeshit does not belong in 40k or HH.

>>96263144
I had forgotten that piece of shit exists.
This model looks god awful. They should never release it.

>>96265292
Kill yourself, capeshitter.

I really want an Omegon model armed with the biggest rifle ever seen (and in general i would love perturabo, Omegon and maybe Magnus (through psychic weapons) to be more shooty than melee. Obviously any primarch should still be able to wipe the floor with any non primarch in melee but there's a huge lack of firepower in the current lineup.

Plus afaik there's nothing in the game that's bs9 or 10 yet and I feel like a shooty primarch would be a good place for it.

Speaking of, I'd love to see anons come up with a shooty profile for a hypothetical Omegon rifle or perturabo gun array

>>96263728
>why would the guy who is known for being master at strategy, logistics and in general has the super power of "Common Sense" be annoyed and dislike when his retarded, autistic brother pointlessly kills off 1/4th his legion for arbitrary bullshit reasons
I dunno man.

If you have an assault weapon (or one that counts as one), you can shoot in the shooting phase and still charge and volley fire, yeah?

>>96265111
I am playing a lost fleet that got stuck on a planet for decades after the human crew made a mass suicide for unknown reasons. 4 chapters in total, the strongest in number mostly terran born, still with some honor left in their ranks. The word about the heresy came from a Blood Angels flotilla that was en route to provision new MK6 to the nearby sector forces. They started to shoot as soon as they saw Night Lords which took my boys by surprise. When the questions has been answered the Lord Commander and his atramentar forces boarded and captured three ships and finally got a way to flee the cursed planet. That's why only my elite troops (Raptors and Terror squads) wears the new mk6 armor since the numbers were low and they took it for themselves. Some remnants of Blood Angels iconografy and weapons still persists on some armor and tanks that were taken as trophies after the Blood Angels marines were all tortured and slaughtered.

>>96265445

RIP jump/jetpack magos, the lack of that is killing so many of my interesting-looking mech lists because there's nothing fast to keep up with and buff the melee units and there's nothing sneaky to infiltrate with the Arcuitor. The way the techno-arcana work is fun, but we are kind of lacking in interesting ways to build units because everything is so heavily keyword-locked.

>>96263144
he looks like the old guy from squidgames

>>96265622

>Omegon
The Instrumentiest:
Execution shot: range 100", fp1, rs 10, ap1, D4, Heavy(D)
Rapid fire: range 30", fp6, rs7, ap2, D2, assault

>Perturabo
The logos array:
Shieldbreaker configuration: r72, fp4, rs9, ap2, armourbane, D3
Heavy Shrapnel canisters: r36, fp1, rs6, ap3, d1, blast (5")

Give Omegon a sword and perturabo fists to balance out their shooting.

>>96265636
So they didn't know about the Heresy but decided to turn traitor anyways? Based

>>96265622
Give pert the Leviathan storm cannons, maybe with an alternate firing mode for shits and giggles. What Pert REALLY needs is to be the army buff primarch, since his whole thing is his armor lets him oversee the entire battlefield and control it like it's a tabletop wargame

>>96265117
>Yes, theyre a command squad (ws5 terminators) with vanguard.
nah they are normal cata termies with 2 attacks (+1 with hammer) all the buffs and without champion. Not retinue or heavy assault but elites though.
>>96265022
with legacy pdf the entire squad can exchange their drakenscale and shields for 1 FC Heavy Flamer with D2 and Panic 2. Can help with striking first against others if status will stick.

>>96265669
that pert gun is disgusting, never balance again. Why is shrapnel AP3? Why are the rapid fire guns deadlier than lascannons?

>>96265695
You mean the army debuff primarch :^)

>>96265656
the mech book is a massive mess because they don't specify how the mechanicum faction traits work and if it's as restrictive as I think, your magos can't properly join 3/4s of the units
do they function the same as legions?

made a few despoilers as proof of concept after a weeks delay. Only 27 more to go, wondering if to go excoriators or meteor hammers on sergeants or if to mix it up, might be cool to give one despoiler in each squad a heavy chainblade/excoriator as well.

>>96265708
I intended them to be anti tank guns, not rapid fire. They should be fp2, not fp4, oops.

I wanted him to have an anti tank firing mode and an anti infantry one, the blast could probably go to ap4, breaching 5+, pinning instead of ap3

>>96265671
They didn't turned traitor. They defended themselves at first, then after learning at what's going on they decided to kill the Blood Angels since the guys in red would never let them go. Then they went pretty much renegade and wandered for themselves, disgusted at what their legion have become and what the empire turned into. These are their storiea. Tum tum, ta da, da da da

Is it specified anywhere if you get a benefit for multiple instances of critical hit?

>>96265633
I think so

>>96265622
>Speaking of, I'd love to see anons come up with a shooty profile for a hypothetical Omegon rifle

Omegon gun
>The weapon
Range 48" FP0, RS9, Ap2, D5 (maybe a bit high but the thought is funny). Murderous(6+), Heavy(FP)

perturbed robert big gun
>Logos annihilation array
Torment configuration: Range 36", FP 3, RS5, AP4, D1, Breaching(5+), Blast(3"), Pinning(0), Stun(0), Panic(0), Suppressed(0), Barrage(2), Heavy(AP)
Ruin configuratiion: Range template, FP 2, RS6, Ap4, D2, Breaching(5+), Shred(5+).

>>96265445
Them not giving mymidax extra gun options and not having a legacies datasheet for a jetpack magos is actual bullshit.

>>96265779
Oh right, Omegons gun should probably have precision shouldnt it? Although I guess I can just say he has it built in to his profile as a special rule, precision(6+) or something

>>96265799
If he has to stay stationary to fire 1 shot and is supposed to be the sniper primarch you could probably make it 2+ lol, as is he'd be unplayable

>>96265053
That's a print, isn't it?

Real ones know Omegon would have a massive banestrike shotgun, power dagger the size of a sword, and rip and tear, until it is done

>>96265715

Yeah, you eat the -1 Ld/Cool penalty if the Reductor magos joins a unit of Myrmidons, it's very silly. The Lacrymaerta advantage theoretically works on any Lacry infantry but as far as I can tell the interlocking keyword restrictions means it's literally only Ursarax, so they could have just written that and saved me ten minutes of fucking around.
If 90% of the units were not locked to particular techno-arcana you could do some interesting stuff, but as is it's just a huge pain and they had to reprint basically the same buff six times so that all the factions could do decent cybertheurgy. Definitely going to be allying with either Legions or Solar Aux when building these factions so I can make some slightly more interesting choices.

On a side note, if I've read this correctly then the Solar Aux legion auxilia types can't ally with legions other than theirs, but they have no restrictions on being allied in by Mech or Demons or other non-Legion factions. I think either Iron or Ultima Cohort AL auxes for some infantry tercios and maybe some barrage artillery would be a great replacement for overpriced tech-thralls, since you can give them either Expendable 1 or a bunch of free reactions, and then use the Diversion reaction to force the enemy to snap shot or waste their AT fire on 4.5pt chumps rather than your big stompy robots or Krios.

>>96265811
You know anon, a gun that oneshots basically any primarch in the game should really come with a LOT of hoops attached.

>>96265818
Two types of stealth, the sniper you never see (because it's so far away) and the shotgun you never see (because it's right behind you)

Is it easy to magnetize the HH predator?

>>96264788
Thanks for these scans, anon.
However, it's baffling to see such poor quality in 2025. The colors, resolution and clarify area all over the place. Illustrations are messed up.
It's like scanning books has become a lost technology or something. I have stuff from 20 years ago that looks like 4k compared to these. Weird when it should be so easy. The hard part is getting the books.

>>96265887
>So much has been lost, never to be re-learned, like scanning rulebooks and giving champions plasma pistols.

>>96265826
That's true, I think the max it should be able to do is 5 damage (after EW) so it can never one-shot a primarch, but also it's one shot that still has to hit, wound, go through invulnerable, and then go through eternal warrior so you're already jumping through a lot of hoops.

>>96265818
With how the twins are describe fighting in the novella I think a massive shotgun would work well when they are back to back

>>96265818
Holy peak, just an effrit made 3x bigger would be absolutely amazing. Focus on debugging the enemy with special ammo and then charging in with a squad of effrit (maybe have him able to take a ws5 version as retinue?)

>>96265920
See, I disagree. I think a sniper SHOULD be able to one-shot, it just shouldnt reliably do so. And thats what it currently does (crits for 6 damage ignoring EW, capable of oneshotting most primarchs), but needing to fish for that 5/6 with one shot a turn would give it a decent balancing act.

>Anons asking for a new Omegon model
What's wrong with his current one?

Very reasonable take, I agree. The murderous strike should definitely remain a 6+ so its still a small chance of oneshotting.

Though I just realized i forgot primarchs all have precision hits at all times anyway so that part doesn't matter too much.

>>96265955

Who's the character that needs a new model the most and why is it Abaddon?

>>96263079
>Kill MEQs
More MEQs than the enemy and drown them in melee combat, Crozius'
>Kill TEQs
Power fists, Great Frost Blades
>Kill AV14
Power fists, Laser destroyers, Missile HSS to Brick AV14

>>96266010
he definitely wins it. Others aren't great, but Abaddon is the only memorably horrible 30k space marine I've seen.

did they ever patch a legacy or pdf of the same kind? it not possible to save some consuls outside homebrew?

>>96265984
>The murderous strike should definitely remain a 6+ so its still a small chance of oneshotting.
Yea, he basically needs to crit using whatever his BS is (so 5+/6+) and then they need to fail an invuln, so at best its around a 1/6 chance to oneshot

>>96266064
Consuls not having many options is very clearly intentional

>>96265822
I don't actually think mixed arcana units suffer penalties, mechanicum is always labeled a faction, as a whole

>>96266075
They explicitly do, one of their arcana benefits is the ability to join other arcana without penalty.

>>96265625
1/10th, anon. It's something the actual roman legions did.

Death Guard or Thousand Sons?

>>96266098
They're pretty much the opposite ends of the spectrum, what are your criteria?

>>96266064
No Liber units received extra generic options.
The Errata added Termie weapons to Tartaros and that's it.

>>96266098
Is magic LE GOOD or is it LE BAD?

>>96266134
>No Liber units received extra generic options.
inb4ing myself to say someone will bring up breaching charges or some shit; (You) know what I meant.

>>96266083
being able to join any faction without penalty =/= variants of the mechanicum faction trait are treated as separate factions
other factions exist

>>96266130
Thousand sons have a good color scheme. However, I am not sure if my hands are precise enough to make them look as neat as they should. Death Guard, meanwhile, have a fun scheme, given all the weathering and leeway for messiness that comes with the scheme

>>96266075
>>96266083
>>96266148
"mechanicum" is replaced by the actual faction. Its the same as "legiones astartes" for space marines.

>>96266169
If you're talking about the stripes on TS, you could always mask them. Keep in mind DG being dirty doesn't mean they'll look good if you can't paint for shit. Try practicing ways to steady your hands instead, like pressing your wrists together while you paint

>>96266187
There's also the fact that whenever I read 1ksons shit, they always prattle on about bullshit wizard shit, DG seem more straightforward

>>96266186
those aren't faction traits in the same way as astartes, the techno arcana are variants of the overall mechanicum faction trait
all astartes are [astartes] but they do not function in the same ways, you cannot have both a blood angels unit and an imperial fist unit in the same primary detachment yet mechanicum can have a lacrymaerta unit and a malagra unit in the same primary

>>96265722
Where did you get those chain axes anon?

>>96266212
well yeah, that's their whole thing. Meanwhile DG have a hate boner for psykers instead (Unless you're a closeted psyker like Typhus)

>>96266214
Correct, mechanicum can have units of different factions in the same army. They are still explicitly different factions.

>>96266221

thank you for agreeing with me that they are not the same as legiones astartes and can mix without penalty

>>96266228
Incorrect, because they are still explicitly different factions.

>>96266134
>>96266139
You mean not like Mor Deythan getting all their options back? Or Head Hunters?

>>96265400
So, it turns out I am right. Salamanders really are overpowered. Their have the damage, tactical flexibility, and sheer durability to make them a freaking beast on the battlefield.
I Can't argue with your results: everything they have is solid. All of their tool has its use and to top it off: Vulkan is damn Busted. Only TS can compare thanks to their 5+ rending shooting essencially making them king of shooting.

>>96266134
>No Liber units received extra generic options

>>96266243
>>96266246
>No generic Liber units units received extra generic options.
That good enough for you, GWIDF?

>>96266246
I'm pretty sure anon is referring to generic liber astartes unit, because I'm pretty sure every legion unit that lose options gained at least some of them back, though I think some lost them for good?

>>96266074
yeah but talking about special rules, like the lack of hatred on chaplain or the armistos having an ability he can't even use

>>96265484

>Finally gives us plastic disintigrators
>Deletes the unit that uses them.

What did James mean by this?

>>96266245
>they have the damage
Their damage is just the same as any generic legion, because their special weapons apply only to their characters
>tactical flexibility
In the sense that they have vanilla capabilities, yes, they are tactically flexible because they receive no real benefits to any style of play (besides herohammer)
>sheer durability
They are 20% more resistant vs specific weapons

>everything they have is solid
Yes, everything they have, vulkan asides, is okay. Nothing amazing but its not bad. Pyroclasts are still just AA meltagunners, firedrakes are just a command squad with vanguard.

>only TS can compare
Every army can compare to salamanders as long as they dont try and herohammer deathstar mash, which is the one area where salamanders are very strong. And even there they arent reigning undisputed since NL still beat them if they proc a status (which isnt very hard to do vs a deathstar) - also EC/WE on the charge, they also just dont have the best troops either (once again, deathwing companions (for example) are just a cut above in terms of being strong elites). The one area where salamanders are superior to everyone else is character quality, they are the current kings of herohammer.

>>96266270
>What did James mean by this?
That they didn't make a terminator one. No kit, no rules.

>>96266232
prove it

>>96265319
>The Legion of the Damned Ferrus thing is never ever, it's just a fan theory without any real lore backing
saturnine.jpeg

>>96266290
Salamanders have a decent legion trait which means theyre going to be solid (this means "okay") in basically all styles of play. Much like iron hands theyre just going to be that bit more durable and annoying to deal with (although with the opposite side of the spectrum in terms of weapons). That isnt the same as them being particularly strong in those styles of play.
Their special units arent overly weak, but theyre also not particularly strong. Theyre just "fine". Sure, firedrakes can be scary, but any similar terminator unit is going to be similarly scary. They are not the strongest terminator unit, they are not the best terminator unit in terms of utility and "viability", theyre just a vanilla thunderhammer terminator essentially.

Vuikan is a very strong primarch, definetly undercosted relative to his brothers in terms of duelling power. This is not enough to change the overall strength of a faction because primarchs are rarely fielded, questionably strong (currently) at the best of times due to "big dumb deathstar" just not being very good, and primarch duels that would show off vulkans particular qualities are even rarer still (for the previous two reasons). In 90% of the combats vulkan will find himself in any of his brothers (except corax, lol corax) will do basically just as well.

>>96266331
Saturnine was always a thing, it even had minis and official art, it's just the lore was all over the place. The Ferrus hting is only mentioned like once in the entire lore and its phrased as a vague prophetic vision that could easily be explained away as something else

>>96266290
Spamming a bunch of prime slot sanctifiers with ws6 3a sergeants with forge crafted weapons also seems potentially quite good.

>>96265584
>Praetor + 2 Centurions or Praetor + Delegatus + Centurion
That reeks of mega ass tax. 1 HQ + 2 Troops would've been better. Especially with Elite termies no longer unlocking their own transports :(

>>96266308
if only some text that explicitly has the various mechanicum arcana be refered to as "faction traits" was posted.

>>96266374
if only some text that explicitly says the only mechanicum faction is solely mechanicum

>>96265633
You can shoot a Heavy weapon and still charge, anon. You simply can't shoot volley with it

>>96266374
>>96266382
RAW, wouldn't they be able to join regardless of Faction/Arcana but suffer and impose a penalty to LD and COOL?

>>96266394
RAW they would not even suffer the penalties because they are still the same faction

>>96266362
Might be yea, although the units overall fairly poor power in combat (besides the sarge) might cause some difficulties there. Still, theyre basically destroyers, so having the sgt be there to mp up whats left could be good.

>>96266382
>if only some text that explicitly says the only mechanicum faction is solely mechanicum
If only, because it literally doesent, it states that units have their [mechanicum] replaced with another Faction trait (you know, like [Legiones Astartes])

>>96266418
>>96266075
brother you need to go to the doctor like immediately, I think there's something wrong with your eyes

Am I missing something, or does the Medic! reaction actually do nothing RAW? It specifies it happens during step 11 of a shooting attack, but that's when you remove the models that died. A recovery test is made when a model suffers an unsaved wound, but that doesn't happen during step 11

>>96266429
>>96266186
Man thats crazy.
>every unit will also have a Faction represented by a Trait

Its almost like one is the actuals rulestext from the liber for the faction, and the other is a brief fluff overview of the rules.

>>96266444
maybe a mental asylum is what you need

>>96265695
There's no more "army buff" Primarchs; all the 2.0 buffs died so Primarchs could grant a conditional Prime benefit to 4 Troops, and one rule for them (but only during the first turn ;^))
If anything, Perturabo is one of the biggest team players because he's got a Cognis Signum for artillery to draw LoS from

>>96266451

>>96266454
prime advantages are so gay, oh my god they're genuinely soulless slop.

>>96265911
>giving champions plasma pistols.
What for? It's pointless now...

>>96266463
literally has no bearing

>>96266476
Literally explicitly explains how and why you are wrong. Try reading at some point.

>>96266454
the biggest 'team player' primarch ATM is probably Ferrus walking next to AV14 slapping a 4-wound heal onto it every turn or removing statuses. For a vehicle that's ~400 points and 10 hull points, he's essentially generating 160 points worth for it every turn, so over a 4 turn game he's created a whole new free tank paying himself off even before he hammer smash.

>>96265955
I don't believe in banestrike shotguns: if you're attacking 3+ save units, the Shred is pointless. If you are depending on Shred to kill 2W, it's too rare to be relied on

>>96266475
What you mean now? People haven't been giving their characters a plasma pistols since what, 2nd edition 40k?

>>96266479
faction trait =/= different faction unless explicitly stated
I know it's hard for you, but please try to understand

>>96266486
>Implying the opponent can remove 4 wounds off an AV14 vehicle per turn

>>96266499
>>will have a Faction represented by a Trait

>>96266508
>the marchanicum army list would have the faction mechanicum

>>96266517
Cute, also irrelevant. The liber states the following >>96266463

>>96266521
adorable, still has no bearing >>96266451
is from the core rulebook

>>96266528
In other words, irrelevant. The liber states the rules plainly.

>>96266089
It would've made more sense that the Decimated units were sentenced to be forlorn hope squads instead of being killed at home.
That would explain the legion seemingly throwing people at the walls – it's all penal squads. Better they bleed than the rest of the legion, and by blood may they earn any semblance of redemption

>>96266537
wrong, those are variants of the mechanicum faction trait
you can try something else now

>>96266566
>Each unit has a Faction represented by a Trait
Your illiteracy isnt my problem.

>>96266412
Am I missing something or does this literally prove anon's point that the Mechanicum faction traits are different Factions, because just like legiones astartes it's on the profile to be replaced

>>96266483
Can characters repair units whilst embarked in them? I remember in 2.0 flyers could be repaired by embarked battlesmiths, but idk if that was ever true for regular Land vehicles, or if it can still be done in 3.0

>>96266570
Sanctifiers?

>>96266441
Check the day0 FAQ.

>>96266569
please go back to primary school
>the mechanicum army list would have the faction mechanicum

>>96264805
so for example if you're in a Challenge with a Legion Champion (because he has to accept/issue) and in the same Combat there's say Jonson or the Khan or Russ, then your Initiative becomes 7 for that entire Phase from the claw's passive ability so you're more likely to strike first (absent Outside Support differences in this particular situation, at that stage your guy has an effective Initiative of 8 from Light, Transmutation and I4) with an additional Attack from winning Focus for the first round and wounding the other guy on 2+

you don't want a return to 2E 40k madness where assassins are broken as fuck because characters are broken as fuck because vehicles are broken as fuck because vehicles used to suck and nobody bought the kits

>>96266504
Perhaps you replied to the wrong person?

>>96266504
whoops meant for >>96266483

>>96266212
>prattle on about wizard shit

More interesting than the fucking death guard, who just drink poison and mope a bit while deploying chemical weaponry, which they don't even specialize in on the tabletop unless you take grave wardens now. Thanks, 3.0!!!

>>96266504
Yes? One vindicator does 2*2/3*1/2*6 (4) HP vs AV14

>>96266592
this is such a niche scenario but I guess it still exists

>>96266486
Decent against veterans and other legion specifics though.

>>96266579
No, models in transports are in a pocket dimension in another universe where they can have no interaction with the main game in any way until they leave the transport. Nothing can be done to them and they can do nothing to anything.

But you can have a repairguy walk behind a Kratos tank (or a Ferrus melee squad walk in front of it) and repairing it at the start of or at the end of any movement.

>>96266592
>then your Initiative becomes 7 for that entire Phase from the claw's passive ability so you're more likely to strike first
Which doesn't matter because your weapon is dogshit

>>96266586
I did, there is no mention of that reaction in there.

>>96266504
4w is a common breakpoint when they attempt to attack a tank. Meltas with dmg6 vs FNP5+ smokescreen, on average the entire melta squad shoots, a single penetration succeeds all others fail, then of the 6 wounds, exactly 4 land onto the tank passing the 5+++. Then Ferrus thumps it once with his hand before he starts walking and the tank is 100% pristine once again, and since they were meltas, they never inflict any status effects at all (armourbane sucks that way)

>>96266612
this is such a shit way to show expected damage
you still have a 1/3 chance of dealing no damage

>>96266486
shred in general feels like a shit rule this edition, If I'm shooting multi-wound models I want to kill them for certain, I'm not shooting 2W models with D1 guns that have a 18% chance of doing 2W instead

>>96266650
You also have a chance to just explode the land raider/spartan/kratos

>>96266649
I still think armorbane being a negative is probably the most retarded change this edition.

>>96266660
yeah
so post the probability curve

>>96266365
But now you have FREEDOM!

>>96266652
This big time. There are times when you can reward a 6 to wound with extra damage, no doubt, but it's just not a core rule for a chainsword to depend on, for example

>>96266664
definitely in the second tier. Not as bad as invisibility field terrain or seeing 1 model's toe and shooting 19 behind a building with curving bullets.

>>96266666
Wouldn't the probability curve just show how probable it is to get the expected damage or better?

>>96266674
I'm not too mad about the "kill models you can't see" change, it's an acceptable game abstraction. Certainly less awful than "the sgt tanks 80 bolter shots on his artificer chestplate"

>>96266699
you can still do that actually, all they did was raise the cost. You can buy as many cheap 2+ armor save HQs are you want (opening up other detachment options) and then have them facetank for their entire squad sucking all bullets into them.

>>96266699
So happy that artificer armour sergeant tanking is dead and buried. It's always been obnoxious and slowed down the game.

>>96263226
He’s really turned into an annoying queer huh. I remember watching his guard vids a few years ago and he was fine but now he’s just whiny

>>96266691
posting the mean damage isn't actually useful information

>>96263427
>uhhh iron hands are like tough
Can’t wait to see how badly he fucks up night lords in his shitdition since he believes chainglaives were awful in 2.0

>>96266634

If I'm reading this right, there is nothing stopping you stashing a Battlesmith model in your tank and then having him hop out to throw heals afer he takes his move, if you'd rather he stay safe for a bit longer. AV14 Krios spam with either attendant tech-priests in scoring units or an Archmagos in his Macrocarid who can hop out and regenerate it to full in one round strikes me as potentially very strong, even if the units other than the AV14 flare-shielded Macrocarid have weak rear armour. Would just need a reliable solution to enemy heavy armour, because S9 pulsar-fusils with no Armourbane probably aren't going to cut it and you can't squadron up a bunch of Vultarax to take a lot of shots at higher BS any longer. A zillion hunter-killer missiles might not be the worst idea.

>>96266666
Its irrelevant, because we arent discussing "the probability to kill a spartan", we are discussing whether someone can get 4 damage onto the thing, which they evidently trivially can.

>>96266739
Its useful information if you want to convey "dealing damage to vehicles is realistic" in a simple manner.

>>96265556
>Wolf spear Russ i
Will be the 40k model, 90% sure

>>96266770
tell me that 50% of the time you deal 4 damage isn't useful when there is no universe where a vindicator can deal 4 damage
if you post the curve, you would know that a vindicator has a 55.66% chance to deal at least 6 damage, the minimum,nonzero amount of damage you can deal

>>96266712
It is way more risky though. You gotta keep allocating wounds to the same model for each fire group, so you can't split 10 wounds from bolters into 6 saves for the 2+ character and 4 on the unit for example. You gotta keep going until the character dies, or all the wounds from the current fire group have all been allocated to it.

>>96266743
They were. Twin LC were better in every case (and the chainblade was superior to the chainglaive in all cases too)

>>96266670
If you wanted real freedom, you'd have:
>You can bring any detachment you want, and as many as you want
>You cannot take multiples of a detachment until you've filled it out
You are not ready for that kind of freedom, your mind recoils from it

>>96266064
In 2.0 some people were equipping the militia jump troops with shotguns instead of twin pistols so they went out of their to patch that out.

>>96266789
Does this also apply to woudns that are from the same weapon but different values from things like breaching etc? Like how in 2.0 you could say "i'll assign all the breaching wounds to the guy with the invuln, and all the ap5 wounds to the regular joes"

>>96266754
>S9 pulsar-fusils with no Armourbane probably aren't going to cut it
There's an out of control Strength inflation, and then fleshbags have the audacity to act all offended when you deepstrike a dozen Multi-meltas on rear armour

>>96266814
special rules basically become separate fire groups so you can still assign all breaches to the squad and tank the nonbreaches on artificer

>>96266814
No, you gotta split those up into separate groups. So you can still do the allocate breaching wounds to X and regular wounds to Y.

>>96266806
>In 2.0 some people were equipping their Masters of Signals with a power weapon instead of their bare hands, so GW went out of their way to patch that out

>>96266789
that's when you slap all the AP2 breaching shots onto the regular 3+ saves and the useless AP4 non-breaching ones onto the character.

Not worth on any of the tooled 150s but certainly good in situations with the 80-85 point characters you're already paying for to have mandatory HQ for detachments.
Moritat 85 tanking on enemy turn after shooting pistols and firestorming during your turn, Armistos(heavy bolter or hflamer for 80), Centurion (officer of the line 2 grants 2 auxiliary detach instead of 1)

Not gonna tank shots for a 10 point tactical marine, but an 80 point guy using his 2+ armor to save an entire group of 30-40 point thunderhammer Night Raptors from losing 3-5 models? Absolutely worth.

>>96266822
>>96266831
fug

>>96266862
* also, you must consider combat res. If you get a chance to tank to save 4-5 guys with your dirt chepa character, your unit might win combat by 3-4 points more than otherwise and instead of you running off the objective and losing the game, the opponent goes screaming off the objective and loses the game.

Hot take, I prefer consuls being locked into certain loadouts, or having some variation but being clearly different form one another. It's a lot more flavorful when each officer has their own "thing", kinda like classes in a hero shooter, instead of all of them being the same but with a different special rule. It sucks that they're invalidating older models as a result, but I think it should've been this way from the start. Besides, you can probably just run your old customized models as centurions, praetors, optaes, etc, since you need more of them per list anyways

>>96265879
Anyone done this?

>>96265879
No. The turret weapons are a curved surface and the sponsons don't have an easy way to do it either
It's not impossible but way more of a pain in the ass than it needed to be

>>96266890
Thanks anon

>>96266866
this whole edition feels like a really shitty beta test for HH4 that they're already writing.

>>96266835
They should beat enemies to death with the radio.

>>96266925
I am doing GOOD WORKS, Trooper Persson!

>>96266819
>There's an out of control Strength inflation
Not really. What there was was a gutting of special rules and bonuses. Lascannons used to reroll failed rolls, meltas rolled 2d6. Iron warriors and NL were running around with flat +1s.
Its not that strengths are much higher now, its that theres less ways to supplement strength.

>>96266712
>>96266822
worth pointing out that while arty armour can tank incoming attacks, you CANNOT do the same for overheat wounds.
Since the centurion has a higher BS, their disintegrator shots form a different fire group to the normal mooks (but WOULD work with BS5 vet tacticals), and overheat has to be applied to models in the firegroup.

>>96266922
Then 2.0 was an abandoned early build not even ready for alpha testing

>>96266878
I agree. I think they went too far and have too little customization, but "if you take X consul, you are restricted to Y loadout" is fine and good broadly.

>>96266922
So did 2.0.

what about salamanders sanctifiers compared to destroyers?
unless my math is bad, they are 220 for 10 with double volkite serpentas, and destroyers are 210

they dont have rad grenades but do have a veteran profile

>>96266968
Not how it works. Overload only works for the WEAPON, not the BS. SO if everyone has plasmaguns you can spill over from BS good to regular dudes.

>>96266974
Theyre a much more durable variant without access to the best weapons destroyers have. Sanctifiers seem quite good (cheap veterans), but theyre basically destroyers without the spice (especially since the best variant of destroyers has deep strike and m12, mortalis destroyers arent as good)

>>96266979
no it doesn't, read the rules.

Overload attacks are applied to models in the firegroup that caused overload.

Firegroup rules state that attack form a firegroup when it is the same weapon AND the same ballistic skill.

So bs5 guy with disintegrator rifle forms a separate firegroup from the BS4 guy with a disintegrator rifle.

>>96265429
where's my BS4 lightning james

>>96266994

>>96266878
We've had restrictions for consuls since book 1 (look at the MoS). No one was complaining back in 1.0 because the restrictions made sense but now we get shit like the champion which is locked into choosing between two weapons that have nothing to do with him being a champion other than being the ones the new resin champions are sold with. "Feels" have nothing to do with it, it's greed and incompetence.

>>96266985
yeah, no warcrimes weapons sucks on them, but a full volkite squad with a power weapon or two sprinkled in should generate some hurt

funny how a moritat can join them, but cant join destroyers

>>96266994
>>96267003
where my penetration missiles james. where my chem bombs. my choggos demand warcrimes at mach 10

>>96267003
>>96267016
BS 4 lightnings never made sense, they're not piloted by a space marine but a fucking servitor.

>>96266819

I'd love to deepstrike twelve multimelta thallax, but that knocks one Land Raider down to about half health on average, at least unless I'm reading this wrong and I get the benefit of remaining stationary after deep striking, in which case I think it's about a coinflip to kill one if I can put all twelve lads within 8" of the tank.

>>96265429

>>96266974
That sounds great.
Serpentas do more damage than rad grenades on one round of shooting. If you do rad grenades and serpentas during volley fire it's only half a wound more
If thye are only trading the sgts phosphex bomb for double the wounds and WS5 that sounds fantastic

>>96267076
You throw a few rad nades in shooting to ensure phage, and the rest fire volkite (and everyone volkites for volley fire)

>>96267108
That still no even a full wounds difference desu

>>96267125
Phase is for the entire game anon, not sure what you're implying, but turning a unit into t3 basedbois for the entire game is well worth not firing 2-3 dudes once.

>>96267026
I remember, I remember when they were given to the best pilots and not aux... and had 2 pages of glorious rules

>>96267035
deepstrikers are never stationary, no reserves are

>>96267035
>I'd love to deepstrike twelve multimelta thallax, but that knocks one Land Raider down to about half health on average
12*2/3*1/3*6 = On average its 16 hull points. What the fuck are you on about. Do you play with 50HP land raiders? A unit of 10 (the actual max iirc) does like 12HP. Remember, melta doubles damage AND gives armorbane.

And no, youre not stationary after entering from reserves, even if you dont move further you count as having moved (since you did move to get there, in a way).

>>96267134
I'm not implying anything. I'm saying Sanctifiers don't have rad grenades but it barely makes a difference in damage output if they can take double serpentas
You kill like 14 MEQs in one round of shooting so I don't think the fact that you make them weaker for more turns is gonna matter a lot

>>96267026
>only space marines can have BS4
How insecure of you.

>>96266961
>theres less ways to supplement strength.
I think I misspoke, because yeah I meant that. Turns out AV14 is really hardy without all of those support rules. Would've been hardy enough with a nerf to explosions, but I guess that's just over now

>>96267134

I was of a mind that the best Destroyer variant in the Legends PDF was the World Eaters one, but then I noticed the lack of Volkite option.
That said, Caedere is pretty fucking nasty even in 3.0.
5 guys, the leader with the Lash with Phage(S), one guy with a Rad Missile to make sure Phage (T) is on the target and then four guys with Falax blades.
4 AP3 attacks which if any one rolls a 6+ it autowounds 3+ save marines and pushes them down to S3. Then the other four hit with 20 AP3 attacks. This is on top of things like Volley Fire.

That still seems pretty neat. Although maybe you want to make sure you skip the volley phase just in case?

>>96267183
it does whhen there are shitloads of 2 wound power armoured units in the game, and even a lone surviving destroyer can really soften up a unit for the rest of your team. But yeah I know what you mean in terms of simple damage output, I'm just pointing out that destroyers AREN'T simply a do-damage-unit, they're an offensive support unit.

>>96267210
>I think I misspoke, because yeah I meant that.
Fair enough. Honestly I think I kind of like it, maybe tanks will end up overly tough, but I like that the various "super duper one shot mega strength" guns finally have more of a purpose. That S12 on the demolisher cannon feels a lot better in that situation.

>>96267213
Its pretty significant to point out that red hand destroyers do not have vanguard at all, and are stat wise identical to vanilla destroyers (while being more expensive, if you use them with jumppacks), so you are pretty exclusively relying on the weapon upgrade choices.

And if you upgrade their weapons, they stack up kinda unfavourably with veteran assault squads, since they lack the all powerful WS5, and phalax blades are a direct downgrade vs lightning claws.

Not saying they're bad, but you HAVE to lean into their funny phage(S) whip + rad options for phage(T) for them to actually be useful over other alternatives.

>>96267178
dumbfuck your math isn't even in the ballpark. Multimeltas are S8 not S9. That's 8 hull points for 12 of them if enemy doesnt just react with its smokescreen so no FNP, and when they used FNP it's 5.3 hull points out of 10.
So yeah, you're retarded.

>>96267228

Yeah. They're strictly a tool for gimping basic scoring units I feel.
Does anyone get BS5 or WS5 Destroyers?

>>96267222
Also true. I guess it makes sense that infantry-carried guns can have only so much strength until you need to put that gun on threads. What was overkill before now has an actual exclusive niche

>>96267218
>it does whhen there are shitloads of 2 wound power armoured units in the game
Not really. Im with the other anon, destroyers (and sanctifiers) have such a high damage output that frankly even veterans wont have anything left once theyre done. Especially if they make it to combat (sanctifiers in particular, with their dirt cheap WS5).

Im sure theres probably units where the phage really paus dividends (thallax?) but power armor, even VEQ, isnt it. The actual "weakness" of sanctifiers is speed, they need a transport (since footslogging VEQ with pistols seems risky) and they need it to be assault since they want to volley fire. While jump destroyers can run around on their own power.

But other than that they seem actually kinda obscene. Theyre just incredibly cheap for what they do.

>>96267239
>Does anyone get BS5 or WS5 Destroyers?
Salamanders. Sanctifiers have the assault veteran statline for 16ppm.

>>96267235
>>96267178
NTA but he's refering to heavy(RS) and while logically I would agree that deepstrike = counts as moved, GW has very much interpreted this as not having moved in the past - I am not looking at the 3e rules right now though, so if someone can find whether it explicitly explains this, that'd be good.

>>96267243
You're discounting the fact that the unit might be half/mostly dead by the time they get into volley rape range. Rad grenades mean even a single destroyer can gimp a unit for the rest of the game, while obliterating a meq squad in a single turn relies on most of/all of the squad being alive to do so.

>>96267254
>NTA but he's refering to heavy(RS)
No, I just missremembered the strength of a multi-melta. I could have sworn it was S9 base.

And while deep striking has varied before, this edition its definitely moving. Someone posted the passage up in the thread.

>>96267254
the rulebook very clearly says it. 242 "Entering play from reserves is considered to be moving for rules that are affected by a unit having moved, even if the models in the unit that is entering play do not move after being placed."

So 400 points of thallax multimeltas does 5 avg wounds to a landraider then the enemy just kills all 12 of them and someone heals the LR for 4 points and it's at 9/10 again instantly.

>>96267266
>>96267272
fair enough then, fuck multimeltas are shit in this edition, aylmao.

>>96267266
Can't believe it took GW releasing a completely new edition to clarify whether units arriving through deep strike count has having moved.

>>96267178

I completely missed that it doubled damage, so I was wrong there, thank you. The multimelta statline I can see is S8 unless you're stationary, though, so a max unit of 9 Thallax (used to be 12, is evidently smaller this ed) is fishing for 6s to pen with Armourbane and does 9 x 2/3 x 1/6 x 6 = 6HP on average if they don't smoke, for 315pts. Would rinse anything less than AV14, but against land raider spam they're struggling. Meltabombs have similar problems.

>>96265271
>>96264496

There is one very janky thing you could MAYBE do with Headhunters. Not even sure it's a good idea... but. What if you went all in on Combi-Gravs instead of Combi-Melta's and gave the entire unit Meltabombs.
Say a Landraider comes to you to disgorge it's terminators. You hit it with 4 Grav-Combi shots, HOPEFULLY one of them get's the 5+ they need to pin the thing. You then charge it and offload 5 Meltabombs into it.
Of course, then you have 5+ confused Vanguard (3) Terminators on your hands, but I said this idea was jank.

>>96267266
Is there hope for S9 Twin Multi meltas, though? Single shot D:

>>96267302
3.0 is hot garbage. Proof that James doesn’t have a drug testing program.

>>96267280
>>96267286
>>96267302
Who in the GW dev team had their spartan deathstar one shot by a multimelta and got butthurt enough to nerf meltas in like 6 different ways?
No extra pen for melta range
Lower melta range on multimelta
Return to multimisser
Cannot do any effects to vehicle other than simple damage
Shittier twin(grav?) multimelta

>>96267026
Argonis and Volk (first Obliterator) were both space marine pilots. And I'm sure a purposely-built servitor can pilot a lightning up to a BS4 standard. They're literally good for nothing else

>>96267323

Same guy who had it happen to him in 40k I assume. First thing I noticed about 10th edition was that they literally couldn't harm most tanks with Melta anymore.
We've gotta stop these guys from actually going to tournaments.

Mechanicum vehicles look pretty good and pretty cheap, but they do seem to have a severe problem in that they have no smokescreens whatsoever. The Macrocarid is basically a less shooty Land Raider with 9hp and immunity to Armourbane though, that thing takes something on the order of seventy or eighty multimelta shots to kill and even lascannons are fishing for 6s. I guess you just take the hits and Battlesmith back up while spending your reactions on better things.

>>96267302
single shot instead of 2 shots last edition, no twin-linked rerolls unlike last edition, +1 strength instead of 2d6 pen. Multimelta, twin-multi-melta and gravis melta cannon all look dogshit mathematically.

The Kratos 14/14/14 with the Melta blastgun looks okay. 24" melta Stable so it gets S10 even when moving around to get vision of an enemy tank and within 24", 2 shots instead of 1 shot, averages like 7 wounds I think? Takes 4 lascannons that move and shoot at full damage 2 and an autocannon. The damage at 365 points might only be a I dunno 25% higher than the thallax deepstrikers, but since Kratos is 14/14/14 with 10 wounds and repairable, it gets to survive to shoot all 4 turns, while DS multimelta are lucky to get one volley off without getting Intercepted or jumped in melee afterward.

>>96267302

Looks like the only decent option is to trick someone to get within 8" of a Leviathan with the Cyclonic.

>>96267290
You realize the LR driving towards you is probably shooting your vets with its lascannons, meaning your 5 man won't be 5 man by the time you're in range to do that

>>96267323
Meltas are absolutely still good, theyre just not good vs specifically AV14 (unless theyre either stationary or one of the heavier variants).
Meltas are simply not "the universal armor problem-solver", nothing is any more. Meltas destroy any sort of "soft" target (rear armor/lower AV) with very high damage (far out of line with their equivalents). Theyre also good at taking out EW(1) troops like custodes, companions, morlocks and deathshroud.

Weapons like laser destroyers have a much lower "total damage output" over a squad of meltagunners, but are better at punching damage onto those very hard targets.

>>96263049 (OP)
>No question, just post models
wip

>>96267346
So thats what, 5 shots hitting on 3s and then with a 5+ cover save probably?

>>96267346

I suppose you have to make them not a priority for the thing with something else. But like I said, I'm trying to find SOMETHING these dumb bastards can do. Banestrike dropping to S4 was so fucking unecessary.

>>96267350
this just falls into the 2e problem - there are weapons that are good against lower armour vehicles, but why take them when you can just spam lascannons which are good against ALL vehicles, and various non-vehicle targets as well?

If melta is shit against the biggest vehicle threats, then the logical choice is to choose big angry lasers that will do that job and more, without extremely crippling range restrictions (honestly, fuck whoever made MM melta range 8 fucking inches).

>>96267367
I'm pretty sure banestrike was balanced around Death Dealers, since 5 man Justi squad can shit out like 40 shots thanks to volley fire.

>>96267323
>Lower melta range on multimelta
Mostly this. If Multi-meltas were 12" melta range, there could be something to it. Maybe if they were at least 9", which is halfway between 6" and 12" omg.
I reckon Multi-meltas were nerfed to people would consider giving regular meltaguns the time of day. Pic related doubles its mass yet is barely above regular meltaguns now.

I'm still grudging about Penetrating hits not doing any Status effect at all. Ilogical...

>>96267382
I think the use case for multi-meltas is just gibibng 2+ save infantry targets, probably when carried by Terminators

>>96267338
>immunity to Armourbane
Oooh shit here we go again...

>>96267382

I feel like mass-Graviton might actually be worth it. You'll never kill it, but he's not going anywhere.

>>96267393
but armourbane is a downside this edition, so immunity to armourbane makes your tank worse

>>96267350
that's a misconception. something like 102/105 guns in the entire game are near harmless to AV14.
A vindicator siege tank with magna laser destroyer SHOULD be specifically the counter to AV14, and yet it's only Dmg3 if it moves even 1 inch.
A specifically magna laser vindicator deals an average 2 wounds to AV14 per turn (so in 4 turns it wont even kill one LR) and that's if LR never uses smoke or gets repaired by a techmarine.
If you popsmoke that drops to 1.3 average wounds.
In 10,000 simulated rounds, a magna laser vindicator killed AV14 0.000% of the time. THREE magna laser vindicators shooting AV14 at the same time kills a LR who isn't smoking only 9.84% of the time.

It's not a user problem, it's VERY clearly a stupid fucking retard game designer got the math for AV14 entirely wrong problem. It's simply not cost effective to shoot actual anti-tank into heavy tanks in 3rd edition anymore. It's not rock-paper-scissors, AV14 has simply exited the game of caring about living or dying (provided you dont melee 10 chainfisters)

>>96267379
We're just living in the "I can't believe my Infantry can't kill this" era. There are S10+ guns out there, but they're all on tracks. Except maybe a couple dread guns idk?

>>96267406
You're not allowed to simultaneously whine about tanks being too hard to penetrate and also that penetrating a tank is a bad thing

>>96267414
its not about tracks. Just about the only things scary to AV14 are 3x 500 point superheavy tanks shooting it in the same turn magically all 3 having vision to it and the landraider not having a 130 point guy healing it 4 hull points every single turn.

>>96267379
Because lascannons are ALSO not good vs all vehicles. Go see how good a 10 man lascannon HSS is vs a land raider.

The closest to "good vs all vehicles" weapons are rapier laser destroyers and the vindicator laser destroyer. Both of which enter "very specialized tools" territory. The vindicator is good vs basically everything, but it also only has 2 shots making it utterly worthless vs infantry where it kills less than a terminator per turn. Rapiers are closer to a balance of "shots vs damage" but still have lower shots/cost than say lascannons (or other weapons) and theyre also made of literal tissue paper, a rapier team gets taken out by three missiles.

If you only care "vs vehicles" then melta still massively outperforms its equivalents - in the right conditions. If all you care about is killing something over a long enough time period then thats whatever, but melta is capable of knockouts that other gun platforms simply arent, and vs various units (knights, for example) thats very valuable.

>>96267411
Its genuinely fucked.
I've run massed av14 lists in the past because it was fun and fluffy, but generally pretty impractical.
In 3e, it feels like it will just be dirty against 99% of lists.

Vehicle damage changes were a mistake, melta changes were a mistake.
The game is better when vehicles, even big tough ones, CAN be cracked and exploded (by specialised weapons dedicated to the job).

If you don't have enough AT to bring down the big tanks in a turn, its barely worth even shooting them at all.

>>96267421
* essentially, AV14 should all have smokescreen removed from them. They don't even need to spend 1 reaction point, just the option that if you spend your 600 point superheavy to attack them they'll fart out smoke and laugh at your damage makes you get away with them s imply not shooting at you because it isnt worth trading 600 points for 1 reaction point and a 130 point techmarines worth of hull points repaired next turn.

An adrasite spear custodes, an adraithic + fist aquilon squad, and a lance venatari squad each on a charge turn, or a sagittarum squad standing still and combi'ing all deal similar damage per point to termies. Per dead ws5 cata, it costs ~64 points for adraithic guard or aquilon, 58 for sagittarum, and 57 for venatari. Big drop off after that to 89 for adraithic jetbikes, and over 100 for contemptor achilles. Strangely a lot of choices competing for most efficient anti teq.

>>96267417
you can tho?
The damage changes mean only glances actually WEAKEN vehicles at all, which bizarrely punishes better AT weapons.
And the nerfs to many of the most common AT weapons (while also making them impossible to trigger glances) makes av14 vehicles just this weird fucking pain in the ass to deal with.

>>96267411
Are vehicles hit on a 2+, as they have no WS to test against? A 1 auto fails?

>>96267411
>>96267426
>If you don't have enough AT to bring down the big tanks in a turn
Wait hoooold on. Don't be a Tau: things have a right to exist for more than a single shooting phase. I wouldn't want a Spartan to vanish in one go either

>>96267436
In melee vehicles are WS1 so everything hits them on 2+, that makes chainfist swarms easily dismantle AV14. Also there's no 5+++ FNP smokescreen in melee. But now that deepstrikers cannot charge, it's impossible to get 10 chainfist terminators into melee with that Kratos unless the Kratos player is the universe's biggest derp. It drives faster than them and has move-and-shoot STABLE 24" threat guns and longer ranged guns.

>>96267414

Legions are well-provisioned here, and Solar Aux can spam 120pt arty tanks to get a lot of S10 templates, at least. Mech have a bit of a harder time, their only S10 outside superheavies is on the BS3 vulturax or the very expensive lascannon thanatar, so they might want to ally in something for that, or grab one of the comically large gun Lords of War.

I was hoping the giant guns on the fortifications might do the trick but the Primus Redoubt is 400pts for one S12 D4 armourbane blast and the Aquila is 300 for an AP4 D3 large blast, definitely not cutting it. Much lamer superheavy tanks and knights it is, much as I would prefer a massive fort to actually do something for once.

>>96267442
If you fire 600 points of marines at a 300 point marine unit in HH3, you kill it just fine in 1 turn.
You can fire half your entire army into an AV14 in 3rd edition without killing it. And they are incredibly quick to repair (with common units having heal 2x2 HP every turn before or after each movement)

Even Primarchs, the immortal demigod children of the emperor, are exponentially easier to murder than a basic AV14 tank in HH3. That's not an exaggeration, that's math. And particularly when there are so many combos to make weapons hurt primarchs. Even stuff like basic corvid 5+ Rending AP2 autocannons would pick apart a primarch's terminator squad and tear a primarch to pieces quite quickly.

>>96267442
Yes, I would? I say this as a WE player who will happily bring 2 spartans for FUN (although in 3e they're absurdly expensive so this is actually impractical now).

Vehicles, even tough ones like spartans being killable fast is healthy for game balance. It makes things less deathstar-y, and makes positioning/screening etc more important, i.e. the actual things in a wargame players have control over, vs just fishing for 6's and hoping for the best.

In the new world I can pretty mindlessly just charge a spartan forwards with anything I want inside, since all but the most giga AT lists will not be able to 1 turn kill it (again, outside of some funny RNG), and the majority of things that can hurt it at all can't even glance it, so it isn't easily incapacitated either

>>96267411
>and yet it's only Dmg3 if it moves even 1 inch.
Then dont move it? Its got a range 36" gun you dumbass, its prey are transports heading to midfield.

>A specifically magna laser vindicator deals an average 2 wounds to AV14 per turn
2*2/3*1/2*6 = 4. A vindicator laser destroyer does 4 HP per turn. I dont know what maths youre doing but its clearly wrong, or youre just assuming the vindicator needs to move for some reason.
A couple of vindicators have a solid chance to take a spartan out in one round of shooting while being cheaper than it. A spartans worth in rapiers will likewise just take it out.

>If you popsmoke that drops to 1.3 average wounds.
IF you can react and IF you didnt take searchlights on your tanks and IF the enemy didnt take searchlights on HIS tanks? Yea, you can pop smoke to have a 5++ for a phase.

>In 10,000 simulated rounds, a magna laser vindicator killed AV14 0.000% of the time
So what youre saying is that your simulation is garbage? Because its a trivial outcome probability to calculate. You need to hit twice at 2/3, and then you need to pen twice at 1/2 to pen. So it happens around 11% of the time. (2/3*2/3*1/4). If your "10,000 simulated rounds" didnt have that happen then the issue is on your end.

"oh but smoke"
Cool, so we just get the probability of a single 5+++ being made (because you didnt take search lights for some reason) and modify the final result. Its a 56% chance for a single save to be made, so you have 0.44*11 = 5~% chance to kill a land raider (or spartan) in one round. Not probable, but 1/20 roughly, or in other words "something that would have definetly happened over 10,000 simulated rounds"

>>96267487
you are very clearly a complete retard if you think any of those sentences are real gameplay, KYS

Vehicles rules (and AT weapon rules) would have been fine if they just left it as 2e rules,but removed sunder from lascannons. Honestly, that single addition completely fucked vehicle balance in 2e, but 3e is such an absurd over reaction.

Vehicles are now often omega hard to kill as lethality against them is lower, but the turn count is reduced as well - a lot of the time your best bet is to completely ignore expensive av14 vehicles because its simply not worth shooting them at all.

>>96267446
Command tartaros don't get chainfists and cataphractii are painfully slow. It would take an average of 11 tartaros or 6 command cataphractii to take down a kratos, and good luck getting the cata into melee.

>>96267457
>You can fire half your entire army into an AV14 in 3rd edition without killing it
You could fire 30000 pts of marines into a land raider in 2e and not even scratch the paintwork.
If you are firing 1500pts of AT at a land raider, its going to be liquefied. Even if its "just" lascannons. You will kill it.

Is it POSSIBLE to not kill it? Sure, its a dice game. Is it PROBABLE? Fuck no, not unless your idea >>96267457

>Even stuff like basic corvid 5+ Rending AP2 autocannons would pick apart a primarch's terminator squad and tear a primarch to pieces quite quickly.
of anti tank is firing missile launchers at it and trying to glance it to death.
"even basic things like the most potent anti-heavy-infantry weapons in the game can take out primarchs in the end"
How insightful. Although you know whats funny? The two or so HSS squads you need for that cost around the same as what, four vindicator laser destroyers? Guess what those vindicator laser destroyers do to an AV14 tank?

>>96267302
it is funny how they didn't even translate twin linked at just 2 shots.

>>96267434
>>96267517
>Command tartaros don't get chainfists
Yes they do now, and I don't know how you're getting chainfists being less effective on tartaros command squad, they have the same number of attacks and strength?

>>96267522
>not unless your idea of AT is firing missile launchers at it hoping to glance it to death*
whoops

>>96267494
All of those senteces are real gameplay, your "10000 simulated rounds" are not. Cope.

Are THs still the go-to for Terminators? They can't really threaten AV14 anymore, can they? What would you say are the best ratios of weapons for 5 and 10 man squads?

>>96267522
>If you are firing 1500pts of AT at a land raider, its going to be liquefied. Even if its "just" lascannons. You will kill it.

This is very close to statistical accuracy.
It takes 45 stationary lascannons to inflict 10 hull points of damage against av14.
So to kill a spartan in 1 turn, you'd need 1575pts of heavy support squads all in range of a spartan, to kill it in 1 turn. On average. i.e. its fucking not even reliable.

>>96267460
>Vehicles, even tough ones like spartans being killable fast is healthy for game balance
They are killable fast, to the proper AT. Its just 2.0 convinced everyone that a 10 man lascannon HSS is all the AT you will ever need (and if you need more just take more lascannon)

If someone invests an equal number of points as you did into spartans into spartan-kiling weapons they will kill them quickly. Maybe not in one round (even if its possible) but they will kill them over the course of the game without too much of a problem.
The issue comes when you expect an anti-tank unit worth a fraction of what its trying to kill to do that same thing, which just seems like a silly assumption.

>>96267446
You'd need your own Spartan full of chainfist Tartaros oof
The only alternative is to have a Retinue Tartaros squad (3A -> 2A) from a LR Proteus (M12" + M7" + 4.25" charge).
I do sustain, based more on hope than actual numbers, that two turns of three Laser Vindicators or whatever such laser tank-hunter, could be a more viable answer. That is, unless you bring a Kratos of your own lmao

The alternative is to get a full meltabomb squad and do a Forgotten War https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLs6zZVHWVM

>>96267550
you can still beat the shit out of a land raider with chainfists
the problem is catching up to one without your own

>>96267550
THs are the terminator weapon for killing power fists (and consequently other thunder hammer users). So it depends on what you want/need them to do. If you dont care about the specific (and rather rare) relevance of I2 vs I1 then fists are just better, if you dont care about killing terminators or other high durability targets then you might want claws.

>>96267556
the retarded thing coming out of your mouth is called the "No True Scotsman" fallacy.

We've heard you dumbfucking inbred 50 IQ monkeys say "lascannons aren't REAL antitank"
"well multimeltas aren't REAL antitank"
then after seeing the numbers "well vindicators aren't REAL antitank"

It is not an issue of expectation. It is simply you being a fucking child who doesn't understand it's a problem to need 1500-1800 points to reliably kill 365 points.
It's unique to AV14 and nothing else. Every other thing in game has a counter to it, AV14 does not.

>>96267556
I never said anything about lascannons, but please show me the cost effective AT against av14?
Some of the very best AT to use against av14... are on av14 tanks.
Lascannon arrays, neutron laser thingo, magna melta, flashburn, sorta dreadhammer, etc are all on av14 nerds.
And a threat's counter should never be to use the threat yourself, its shit balance.

why are people scared of av14?
oh no you're going to shoot at me with 6 lascannons oh no it might deal a hullpoint of damage woe is me

>>96267576
>then after seeing the numbers "well vindicators aren't REAL antitank"
A 160pts vindicator puts 4HP into AV14 on average. Two kill a land raider in one phase on average. Three kill a spartan in one phase on average. Three vindicators are worth slightly more than one spartan.

>>96267570
fair enough, but what are your ratios then? 3 hammers 2 fists?

I've got 4 rhinos. Should I be running tactical squads in them, or other units?
Should tacticals just be big blobs of 20?

>>96267570
and because shooting screens happens after the movement phase happens, a running away 365 point AV14 Kratos can pretty much never be caught by a chasing AV14 Landraider at 1000 points of chainfist+landraider. He can just have an infantry unit step in the road every turn after his tank drives down the road, and the chainfist entire mission is immediately a failure (and chainfists suck balls against infantry for 1000 points of landraider+chainfist termies)

>>96264805
I thought of you when I saw the profile anon, I am sorry. Losing the Hammer arm must hurt like a bitch.

You know, my first thought was "ah, time to get the Shadowsword out" but the Shadowsword has to snap shot anything smaller than a superheavy, so that doesn't even work.

The Singularity Cannon on the Atrapos has about a 1/3 chance to instantly throngle a Land Raider and a somewhat smaller chance to take a huge chunk out of the Knight, but doesn't hit hard enough to deal with a Spartan. The Porphyrion does quite well, though, 4 S12 Armourbane shots with D8 while standing still. On average, that folds a Land Raider in half, although even the 725pt monster knight needs two turns or an above average roll to kill a spartan, since it can't get Searchlights even if you buff it up to BS5 with cybertheurgy.

>>96267585
Your numbers are wrong by a factor of 100%. It's actually 2 wounds not 4 wounds, as it's only Dmg3 to ever get vision of the target.
A vindicator cannot see a Kratos/LR without moving. Zero things obligate someone to choose to park their vehicle in front of the vindicator in view.
Even 3 vindicators has been tested and has a sub-10% chance of killing a landraider that never pops smoke. If he pops smoke it's probably down to 5% or less.
If vindicators had a special power to deploy them invisibly, you wouldn't be a complete retarded kid. But no, the other player knows before the game starts that you have vindicators, he gets to see where you deploy them, he gets to choose to move his tanks out of sight of the vindicators using his 8-10" movement every turn. You are never the one in control with a stationary vehicle to somehow get 3 vindicators to have Line of Sight at the same time without moving. You'd have to play on a bowling ball lane with zero buildings on the entire table. It's really not hard to understand for people who aren't retarded.

>>96267583
>but please show me the cost effective AT against av14?
????????
Laser destroyers?
And no, lascannon arrays arent very good AT in my opinion. Especially for the cost.

>Some of the very best AT to use against av14... are on av14 tanks.
Yea, who would have thought superheavy guns come on superheavy vehicles. Weird that. I expected the neutron laser battery and melta blast cannon to be handheld.

>And a threat's counter should never be to use the threat yourself
If you want to beat melee elites in melee, your answer is your own melee elites. If you want to shoot big tanks to death, you need big guns (which often (not always) come on big tanks).

If you want to not have to field vehicles, you will have to "settle" for gravis melta-cannons, twinned multi-meltas and rapiers. Or just CC.

>>96267556
I don't know the math on a 3" template still hitting after scattering d6", but 400 points of demolisher cannon dracosans average 9.14 wounds on av14 before you factor to hit. There are even other heavy transports that are very effective at blowing up av14.

biomancy power fists or hammers on fast units are how you deal with armor imo. you don't want armorbane because you want to stack all those delicious status effects in the event you wiff your rolls

>>96267584
Because av14 vehicles are doing shit the entire game unimpeded since they're very hard to kill?
A spartan itself can melt many vehicle threats since its pumping out 4 S9 D3 armourbane shots.
Things like kratos can do A LOT of damage, and its very unreliable to kill it, or even do temporary effects to it.

We're not talking something like a mastadon, that SHOULD be an near indestructable nugget, these are relatively common vehicles that have good damage output themselves, and/or do other useful things like transporting troops with exceptionally reliable safety.

>>96267585
Even 3 vindicators are exceptionally unreliable at killing something like a spartan in 1 turn. The magna laser has very high damage per shot, so your average damage number is not actually particularly useful - you need to find the probability it does enough damage to kill it on one turn, which is far below 50%.
It also has lower range than lascannons, so with deploy first go first, you are very likely to either get shot at and lose vindicators before they can fire, or they deploy last and just position it so you can't alpha strike them like that.

>>96267620
>A vindicator cannot see a Kratos/LR without moving
Lol. If someone wants to keep their kratos or LR hidden in their deployment zone then its functionally dead anyways. If they dont want to do that? You can see it.

>>96267611
snap shots don't really hurt it that much desu

Oh boy I sure can't wait to park my spartan behind a building and leave it there.

>>96267625
>I don't know the math on a 3" template still hitting after scattering d6"
Vs a land raider or spartan? Its going to be near 100%. Average scatter on a d6 is 3.5", the radius of the template is 1.5", the maximum you can go off target is therefore 4.5" (and 2" on average being the actual deviation)

>get a recasted outrider bike squad
>it's not a unique model but is an upgrade set for the scout bike squad
oh god I'm sorry I didn't know I don't deserve this pain

>>96267628
>A spartan itself can melt many vehicle threats since its pumping out 4 S9 D3 armourbane shots
As this entire conversation should show, S9 means very little vs heavy vehicles. Even against things like a vindicator or predator, The spartan isnt super hot. And it does even less to infantry.

Spartans and land raiders have very low damage output into most targets (the ideal target for a spartan being a walker I suspect).

>>96267626
You probably need fists for that. Twice as likely to breach.

>>96267622
>AT against av14 is perfectly fine and balanced because a single unit can spam laser destroyers
ogey. Surely every list having to spam a single unit is a good thing that no one ever has a problem with.

>If you want to beat melee elites in melee
Or you can shoot them off the board, or destroy their transport (not anymore aylmao), or screen them.

Its mindblowing that people defend what is just clearly, and mathematically poor design choices, when every game I have played of 3e (only a few), and every game I hear my country's community discuss (a lot) it CONSISTANTLY comes up that av14 is extremely ass to counter. But yes I will tell them they all gotta have meta lists and spam rapiers and it will be fine.

>>96267666
word. hammers work if your unit is big enough and are probably better at going up against other melee units. nice to have choices I guess

>>96267658
you got pranked. Either that or you didn't actually read what you were getting.

Outriders started as an upgrade kit of SCOUT bikers, but this was a very long time ago, like 15 years ago.
Many other kits of that era were technically upgrade kits, but not always stand alone.
i.e. fellblade and such uses plastic baneblade parts.
fireraptor/stormeagle uses bits from whatever that shitty 40k flyer is called.

Usually recasters are pretty clear with what you're getting though, so gg.

>>96267663
Even against things like a vindicator or predator, The spartan isnt super hot
It's pretty good at killing av13 anon. Remember vehicles aren't in squadrons anymore, so there's no prize for overkill anyway. All it takes is 2 pens to kill a vindi/pred/sicaran - not to say this is some guaranteed omega vehicle killer, but its respectably good considering its main job as a transport and AT sponge.

>>96267688
I repressed the memory of the scout bike squad. I didn't ever want to think of it again. It didn't even occur to me that another kit might be based off of it.
Although I do get the pouches and grenade bandoliers and holstered shotguns which are totally radical and they're all in good condition.

>>96267628
>you need to find the probability it does enough damage to kill it on one turn,
Going by what some other anon said since I dont care enough to verify, you have an iirc 58% chance at 6 hull points per vindicator (cursory napkin maths (just working backwards from the average damage via maths and the lowest possible damage) tells me its closer to 65% but whatevs). You need a combination of two of those between the three total.

>>96267669
>Or you can shoot them off the board, or destroy their transport (not anymore aylmao), or screen them.
And you can likewise melee tanks, or status them, or simply deny them good targets for their specialized loadout.

>>96267550
Toss up between TH or power fists.
Chain fists will make you lose to other infantry you lose an attack and that's huge now. If you are fighting other infantry only TH. If you want to fight Dreads, Mechanicum beasts, etc you want PF to wound easier

What melee weapon are we thinking for Veteran Breachers? Mauls might be nice.

>>96267446
You assault out of a vehicle into the tank. That is extremely expensive but it gets the job done

>>96267754
For mine I was thinking 3 mauls, 3 aces, 2 power fists, a thunder hammer and melta bomb on the Sarge, and 2 lascutters, but the melee weapon choices were mostly for thematics rather than practicality, probably just want all power fists and thunder hammer Sarge given that it's a 5 point difference

>>96267725
>You need a combination of two of those between the three total
Ok so assuming it is somewhere around 60% per vindi, thats pretty close to a 50% chance to kill the spartan - not including smokescreen, LOS terrain, or as mentioned the game start positioning/first strike stuff.

>And you can likewise melee tanks, or status them, or simply deny them good targets for their specialized loadout
This is not really comparable.
Shooting melee units is fine because they actually have to get into melee range with you... shooting units don't want to be in melee range with you to begin with, and in the case of things like spartans, they've almost certainly done their job if you're in melee range of it, so killing the spartan instead of the guys inside is just a happy bonus.

>status them
The difficulty of applying status to av14 is half of the issue people are complaining about. Glance locked statuses are fucking a terrible decision, which is extra funny when most of the weapons you'll shoot a spartan with have armourbane.

>>96267628
>it does enough damage to kill it on one turn, which is far below 50%.
For three vindicators?
Its The probability of succeeding at least once on the first one * the probability of succeeding at least once over the next two goes.

So at 65% to deal 6 damage its 0.65*(1-0.35^2) or 0.57. You have a 57% chance to kill a spartan (or land raider, breakpoints line up like that) in one round with vindicators.

>>96267771
I play Iron Warriors so I feel like Mace and Shield looks visually appropriate, so that's where I'm settling.

>>96267788
>Ok so assuming it is somewhere around 60% per vindi, thats pretty close to a 50% chance to kill the spartan - not including smokescreen, LOS terrain, or as mentioned the game start positioning/first strike stuff.
Yes, you have a slightly over 50% chance to kill the near equivalent of your vindicators in terms of points in one round of shooting. That is very good. It means your vindicators can easily kill 2x (maybe even 3x) their points worth of Av14 boxes over the course of a game. Killing your weight in one round is an absurd thing to do.

>The difficulty of applying status to av14 is half of the issue people are complaining about
Shock(X) exists. A combi-grav has a 1/3 chance to pin a spartan. Theres also various suppressing weapons.

>>96267827
>Shock(X) exists. A combi-grav has a 1/3 chance to pin a spartan. Theres also various suppressing weapons
Shock grav is something I didn't notice, which is neat. You can't normally status vehicles though, unless the rule explicitly lets it work on vehicles (like shock does).

>Killing your weight in one round is an absurd thing to do
Its a roughly 50% chance to kill the spartan. If it deploys in the open in range of all 3. And you have first turn. And you don't pop smoke. The odds aren't THAT great, and this is one of the best AT options available.

The big problem is in 1e/2e, that 50% chance to kill includes the chance to just 1 hit explode it, or to (temporarily or permenantly) cripple it.
In 3e, you could take out 9hp and you've achieved nothing in terms of weakening it at all, or stopping it from doing its job.

>>96267908
>If it deploys in the open in range of all 3
Its an enormous tank whos job is to move up onto an objective to disgorge slow melee infantry. It doesent have the luxury of deploying behind a ruin somewhere in the back of your deployment zone. Vindicators have 36" guns and turning doesent count as moving.

Every army/Legion should have been given access to the "demi-company" auxiliary detachment, not just Ultramarines. It's generic as hell and makes organizational sense. An Optae, two Troops, and a Support slot. Demi-company. That wasn't just Ultramarines, you fucking slacking nu-Forgeworld shits.

>>96267792
it's 65% to deal 3 damage, vindicators are not damage 6.

>>96267920
in warhammer30k you cannot shoot while the enemy tank is driving, only where it eventually stops. Which will never at any point be visible to 3 vindicators, you inbred fucking retard.

>>96267757
except that works 0% of the time. All the other guy has to do is drop a roadblock between you and the chainfist transporter. They have to stop the tank immobile in front of the roadblock, then shoot it, and then their turn is over and they're not able to charge. That's how the game actually works.

>>96263141
>since their only significant contributions are the Battle of Prospero and the Siege of Terra. Death Guard fight against everything except Ultramarines and Blood Angels in the heresy.

>it's an 'anon only goes by what's in the black books or the god-awful black library tripe and does realize the Horus Heresy (or sorry, Warhammer™: The Horus Heresy™) had fighting raging across the expanse of the fractured Imperium

Alan Bligh would spit on you and lump you in with the PERFIDIOUS ELDAR were he alive to witness your stupid, gay faggotry. Suck on Neo Cadiz nuts, cumguzzling """""""lore""""" cuck.

>>96267920
Unless you have very shitty terrain, even a spartan should be able to LOS at least one tank, which greatly reduces the odds of you 1 turn killing it. Also you still only have a 50% chance to even go first. If you don't, you're definitely not going to kil it T1.

>>96267967
You have to remember that this place was infested with Star Wars autists years ago. Real shame.

>>96267967
>lump you in with the PERFIDIOUS ELDAR
Anon I'm pretty sure Bligh was an Eldar fag. He sure designed like one

>>96267456
I can't believe Mechanicum went from all that antitank to basically none. If only inflicting the same status effect on a vehicle caused 1 HP, but it has to be by means of the damage chart, not repeated Shock (Pinning) from grav guns.

I guess it'll be up to Thallax massed melta bombs?

>>96267967
Seeing "JoyToy" next to frowning Peter Turbo makes me laugh for some reason.

>>96267983
>If only inflicting the same status effect on a vehicle caused 1 HP, but it has to be by means of the damage chart, not repeated Shock (Pinning) from grav guns
I...am I going insane? Is that literally not what happens, as evidenced by your very screen shot?

>>96267961
You realize the tank can literally drive through the unit right.
It can still shoot everything too. And the guys can still get out.
You did know that right?
Oh, let me guess, you don't actually play, and you haven't read the rules (most of the shit scans don't have all the rules you gross poorfag).
Shut FUCK up you stupid faggot

>>96267991
read the rules for shock

>>96267991
shock does not trigger pinned via the vehicle damage table.
So if you shock a vehicle, then score broken motors on it, you don't cause another hp.

>>96267457
>You can fire half your entire army into an AV14 in 3rd edition without killing it.
Waaait a minute. A Land Raider Carrier with a 5 TH Termies on board is 465 pts, and three (480 pts) stationary Laser Vindicators can kill it in one go.
Or more commonly, 3 Laser Vindis moving the first turn, then 2 static next turn. 2 moving then 2 static would still work, but I have to assume the other guy is also playing the game, ofc.

I'm jumping through hoops trying to avoid the no-nonsense answer: "...or I could just use a Kratos of my own" :(

>>96267532
That's not funny :'(

>>96267747
>Chain fists will make you lose to other infantry you lose an attack and that's huge now
Yeah what the hell. Chainfists are better against vehicles, and that's fine. But at the cost of being actually bad against infantry? They could at least be okay, you know?

>>96268074
Lots of the weapon changes are kinda ass, but also pretty unintuitive.

A chainfist is still literally a powerfist, having the chain attachment cut a (normal terminator's) attacks in half is pretty bizarre considering they'd just be normally fisting people 80% of the time.

And then all the heavy (x) shit, and how they've changed all the 'gravis' weapons is super inconsistant, so isn't intuitive to the user at all.

I.e. Heavy weapons are complete RNG on what stat GW decided it's going to buff on a given weapon (and weapons in the same category having different heavy buffs).

Some gravis weapons are now just 'double shots' (which makes sense, but arbitrarily some aren't (gravis melta is just +1 str for example).

Gravis chainfist gets +1 damage if you have 2 of them, but +1 attack if you have 2 gravis powerfists, while a centurion/praetor can legally take 2 powerfists/thunderhammers, but it does nothing at all.

Just fucking make the rules simple and consistant, so its easier to play without just being needlessly complicated

>>96268074
You still wound on 2s and kill just like tacticals, multi wound power armor shit.
But you lose to tough infantry with an invul (ie other terminators).
There isn't anything wrong with it, this is called 'game balance.' it's a good thing. Having an auto pick choice is shit and if you think otherwise you probably don't paint or play anyway

This is incredibly shooty, but I think it will handle better than my previous lists.

>>96267983
vulturax are also insanely cheap at only 100 pts and can mulch shitty infantry and tanks
oh they can also fire twice because of firestorm

>>96268164
Its not an autopick when you are paying more points for more functionality.

Previously it was power fist, which could be upgraded at equal cost to either chainfist or thunderhammer, depending on what advantages you wanted.

Chain fists are now VERY specialised. Losing an attack is a huge deal considering there are no charge bonuses, so a single bad roll and your expensive chainfist nerd does nothing at all. Hell, chainfists are now just worse versions of lascutters, which is kinda funny.

>>96268188
What? On all platforms a chainfist, Thunder hammer, and power fist cost the same amount of points, because they specialize in different things

>>96268204
>previously

>>96268176
God damn it I have logistical benefit on the Centurion but didn't actually use it.

All this talk of melee options and last cutters made me realize we don't really have any kind of "laser sword", do we? I don't even think 40k has that. We have power weapons, force weapons, even lascutters, but those are closer to welding torches than actual melee weapons. Wonder why that is?

>>96267566
Is that where Melta bombs come from? It's literally a melta bomb

>>96268237
mfw a terminator with a chainfist is generally worse than a half starved conscript with a meltabomb

>>96268233
The Atrapos Lascutter is literally a light saber. It pokes things at 12".

>>96268357
I too poke things at 12"

>>96267625
>This just in, chainfists even more niche than previously imagined
Can a weapon be Initiative -4? Like, does that hit at initiative step 0 or is it capped at 1? Do i3 power fist users hit at the same time as i4 marine power fist users?
Because I'd like chainfists to remain A(User), just -1i slower than fists

Do Despoilers use Assault markings or Tactical markings?

>>96268435
Tactical markings. They are just tactical marines who were told they are going to be raiding trenches today and that they need to take a sword instead of a bolter.

>Interdiction Cadre gives Expendable (1) and the cool ambush rules
>IW Prime Advantage is just Expendable (1)
Thanks, James...

>>96268501
>Interdiction Cadre gives Expendable (1) and the cool ambush rules
But you're in reserves. The IW one can be proactive and jump on a point to get mulched and still score.

>>96268516
Hmm, that is true.

>>96268501
Yeah but the IW can make ANYTHING expendable, just as Peter Turbo intended

>>96267928
>two Troops, and a Support slot.
But we get two troops and two support slots as a Tactical Support detachment, anon.
The Ultramarine detachment does swap one Tac Support for a "Javelin Slot", or whatever Fast Attack is called nowadays, and adds an Optae (meh) with a Prime benefit (ooh). That's proper Legion-specific tier

>>96268567
fresh page 8 bread
>>96268567
talk about upcoming games
>>96268567
be sure to thank your Optaes

>>96268138
>>96268188
I don't think I've seen a chainfist shill ever acknowledge their wielders giving up 50%–33% of their attacks to be able to melee a specific type of tank. Even dreads are better engaged by actual power fists instead

>>96266215
the chainaxes are from the Jakhals kit, the militia guys in 40k WE. I like the smaller more realistic size, they are crazy cheap because the jakhals kit lets you equip each one with two axes and the nagrakali runes scratched into them is a nice touch.

hm, I have seen a lot of discussions the last weeks about AV14, like you gotta be able to take out 5 AV14 vehicles in turn 1 or else!1!!

Isn't it a valid choice to ignore AV14? A Land Raider doesn't do that much damage, maybe it kills 1 infantry model per turn, big whoop.

Especially as so many people like their 10 las HSS for 500 pts which is 1/5 of their army and twice that of a LR.
Or is everyone playing 5k games against 2 Typhons, 2 Spartans, 4 Land Raider DTs, a Primarch and a Titan to justify that arms race?

>>96267945
Yes they are? Youre thinking of laser destroyers that are damage 3.

>>96270224
you're literally wrong.

>>96271262
Now go read the special rules dumbass. Theyre damage 6.