Thread 96271515

>Destroyed religion without understanding it so he doesn’t appeal to religious people
>Stifled innovation and scientific development so he doesn’t appeal to techbros
>Destroyed human cultures and distinctions so he doesn’t appeal to traditionalists
>Slaughtered friendly aliens on principle so he doesn’t appeal to pragmatists
>Simped over the Eldar so he doesn’t appeal to human supremacists
Why do people like this asshole again? He was pretty much just some cringe commie figure like Stalin or Mao but with psyker powers.

>>96271515 (OP)
Fuck off to your containment general, summerfaggot.

>>96271515 (OP)
I dunno ask /hhg/

The kind of retard who bases his personality around a story that exists to sell plastic army men isn't going to think that hard about it.

>>96271515 (OP)
He was trying to save humanity.

>>96271981
From what? Everything I've heard about the WH40k Universe seems to imply that everyone is doomed anyway and all he really did was just put humans on the shit-lists of every other sufficiently advanced life in the universe.

>>96271515 (OP)
The Horus Hersey art makes him look really cool and his status as the "main character" of the lore means lorefags are obsessed with him

>>96271515 (OP)
less the character, more shitty writers using him to grandstand.
remember Graham McNeil got denounced by his idol

>>96271981
And all he accomplished was hastening its doom by handing Chaos 9 Primarchs, 9 legions of supersoldiers, half the Mechanicus, and setting up for the Great Rift to tear the galaxy literally in half the moment Cadia's pylons are destroyed

>>96272241
He absolutely is not the main character. He has maybe half a books worth of screen time.

>>96271981
>empowers chaos more than it has ever been
>attracts the tyranids
He just ended up making everything worse before the inevitable Necron reconquista

>>96272214
>>96272903
>>96272935
The 3 flavors of Captain Hindsight. All of you seem to be suggesting that either you could have done better, or that the Emperor should have just done nothing. Do you really think mankind would have survived had he not intervened?

>>96271515 (OP)
>Slaughtered friendly aliens on principle so he doesn’t appeal to pragmatists
>Glosses over the principle is question
The Emperor's goal was have humanity as the lone living contributors to the real of souls, in an ploy to stabilize it and dissolve chaos.
If successful, this would eliminate all potential threats to humanity.
Quite pragmatic.

>>96273472
>suggesting that either you could have done better
I KNOW that I totally couldve done better

>>96273706
Right. You're totally on the level of an ancient immortal genius alpha-plus psyker. Care to tell the class what you would have done differently?

>>96273799
Mercy kill Angron and Kurze for a start
Have a conversation with Lorgar and very clearly explain the Imperial Creed.

>>96273828
Congratulations, you've crippled the crusade on two fronts and now the other Primarchs are starting to get really nervous since these would be 4 that you've killed by now. Lorgar still doesn't listen to you because "only the truly divine would deny their divinity".

>>96273858
How’d the other primarchs know about their deaths? Just say xenos did it
Oh and Magnus’s trial was the most contrived bullshit I’ve ever seen

>>96273472
If this is the mankind we're getting, maybe it's time to stop.

>>96273472
Not those anons, but I'd like to remind you that the Emperor can see the future(s), but more or less fails to use that incredible power in any meaningful way. Leto II's prescience in Dune left people dancing on the palm of his hand thousands of years after his death, but Big E just comes off looking even dumber than he would have otherwise. I'm sure fanboys handwave this by saying Chaos obfuscated what their doing somehow, or that the Emperor knew all along and what we got was somehow the best outcome. There is simply no salvaging how badly the Emperor is written.

>>96273888
I'm sure lying to your sons about killing your other sons will not come back to bite you in the ass. And Magnus' trial was meant to be a warning against unrestrained use of psychic powers. Do you really think Magnus would have had the restraint to heed his father's warnings about the Ruinous Powers if he told him? The guy has a track record of believing he knows best and massively fucking things up because of it. Malcador even told Dorn directly that the Primarchs would likely mobilize against Chaos if they knew about it, which is a horrible idea. Keeping him in the dark was a gamble too, but nobody knows how things will work out. It's a risk no matter what you do, and the only reason you'd choose to tell him is because you have the luxury of hindsight.

>>96273952
Master of Mankind gives a pretty good description of what foresight is like for the Emperor. He can see the destination like an island in the distance, but cannot see the many predators or swells in the sea below as he attempts to navigate there.

>>96273895
Fuck that.

>>96271515 (OP)
There is only the Emperor, and he is our Shield and Protector.

>>96273472
>Do you really think mankind would have survived had he not intervened?
Yes.

>>96273799
The dude lost a basic bitch atheism debate, he's fucking retarded

>>96273952
>or that the Emperor knew all along
He knew all along that any sufficiently advanced, numerous species would eventually develop sufficient psychic powers to be eaten by the birth of a new Chaos God, fall of the Eldar style.

>and what we got was somehow the best outcome.
Maybe not the best, but the stagnant 41st millennium is far from the worst. Humanity gets bigger / more advanced, they get eaten by the birth of the Dark King, Chaos God number five.

>>96271515 (OP)
Fuck the Emperor he did everything wrong.
>90+ IQ Emperor
>DAoT
Stockpile STC's, Loyal AI's and every anti warp device ever.
>Unification Wars
Start dragging ice comets to Terra goddamm, and lock Erda up the second the Primarchs hit the test tubes.
>Mars
Hit Mars with so many RKKV's that the Void Dragon goes "HOLY FUCK WHAT DID THEY DO!?!?"
>Ch*os
Education and contempt. Combine this with all the anti-warp DAoT goodies and Chaos fucking dies. The Interex had "Kaos" so whipped that they had to get the fucking Imperium be their tool to destroy them. If anything the Imperium is the perfect prey/toy for Chaos to thrive, Chaos can sink it's hooks into EVERYTHING but three groups, the Grey Knights, Custodes, and the Silent Sistershood.

It's almost like the fucking Emperor is working for Chaos by how badly he fucks up.

>>96271515 (OP)
The emperor didn't understand that faith is intrinsically linked to humanity. If there is a conscious being, there is faith.
All he did was direct humanity's faith toward him.

>>96273472
>All of you seem to be suggesting that either you could have done better
I could have, yes.

>>96273987
>He can see the destination like an island in the distance, but cannot see the many predators or swells in the sea below
How convenient for the plot

>>96273472
It doesn't really matter if anyone else could do better. The problem is the Emperor was convinced he knew the only way forward for humanity, except he didn't. He was wrong, but he plowed ahead with his plans to become everything he hated most, a genocidal despot, anyways, despite knowing from history it never ended well, because "The difference is, I know I'm right." Yet he didn't. He didn't know shit. He made many very, very big mistakes, trusted the wrong people, was happy to let glaring problems like Angron and Curze fester just so long as he rushed his plans forward for the Webway. Or the fact he knew that the Warmaster was destined to be corrupted before he ever created the Primarchs.
Or, probably the most damning mistake of all, the fact he broke his own number one rule, don't bargain with Chaos, and bargained with Chaos. The act of doing so invited damnation upon the entire galaxy. The Emperor wasn't 'making the best of a shit situation' like so many of his dickriders claim. He was making a shit situation worse, far worse, and whatever glimmers of good he accomplished for humanity have been vastly outweighed by the negative consequences of his blunders.
The Emperor was a fuckup of epic proportions, and thanks to him, humanity has to pay the price for his hubris. Sanguinius knew the Emperor glowed like a government agent and demanded he never fuck up Baal. Corax regretted not striking a similar bargain after the Mechanicus was done raping his homeworld. Vulkan rigged the Golden Throne to detonate the entirety of Terra if the Emperor ever tries to get off of it. And the Khan was right from the beginning. The Imperium, like all empires, could only ever end one way, in fire and blood.

>>96273472
>Do you really think mankind would have survived had he not intervened?
Malcador saw the future without the Emperor's intervention, and he could see humanity would survive for millions of years. It would be tumultuous and hard to predict, a murky swamp of confusion and danger, but there were many futures for humanity without the Imperium.
Don't forget humanity built the Age of Technology without the Emperor's help. It was already fully qualified to conquer the galaxy, it had done so once, it could do so again.

>>96274447
All of this assumes that the Emperor foresaw the Age of Strife. We don't really have any evidence to suggest that he did. You're making your "better plan" with the knowledge you have from an omniscient reader's perspective.

>>96274927
If that's the case, then why did Malcador bother to throw his lot in with the Emperor?

>>96275421
Probably cause if he didn't the Emperor would've tried to do his thing anyways and then the Imperium would've been ruled by Chaos instead

I think he is an idiot for not getting out of his chair. So what if the portal opens and everyone dies he can just build new humans since he is so smart and powerful.

>>96271515 (OP)
Post painted models.

>>96274845
What a load of shit. Your judgement about what makes a plan good or not is nonsense. You judge a plan by the information you have at the time, not by whether or not it works. You could plan on making a good first impression with your father in law by putting him in a full nelson, only for you to accidentally crack his back and alleviate a lot of his pain, making him like you. Just because it worked out doesn't mean the plan wasn't fucking stupid, you just got absurdly lucky. Conversely, the Emperor got absurdly unlucky. He had more information and a better plan than anyone else in the galaxy. The plan failed because of the cascading unpredictable fuck ups of multiple people he could not directly control. If Erda hadn't scattered the Primarchs, if Horus had refused Erebus' offer, if Magnus had obeyed the Edict of Nikea, if Russ had captured instead of killing Magnus, if Lorgar would have just fucking obeyed the Imperial Truth, and so many other examples. If any one of these things played out differently, then the Imperium would be fine or at least in a much better state than it is now. But when it all goes tits up, the Emperor still takes responsibility by sitting on the throne of endless suffering just so his people can continue to exist. You people who just want to shit on the Emperor because he represents your shitty father or that dictator you hate or whatever the fuck cheapen the entire setting by painting him as this dipshit who didn't know what he was doing. He absolutely did, and he was right. People who thought they knew better were the ones who fucked everything up. Lastly, there was no "deal" with Chaos. The Emperor stole power from the gods, because fuck the gods.

>>96275558
>and a better plan than anyone else in the galaxy
That's where you're wrong. He made several decisions that were idiotic right from the outset which a logical person would not have made.

>>96275575
Agree to disagree, unless you care to provide examples.

Here's my stupid work in progress Death Guard. Painting is hard and I'm bad at it.

>>96275675
Banning religion, giving the Mechanicus control over so much of the Imperium's technology and industry, and creating mentally unstable supersoldiers that get executed like Old Yeller as soon as they're no longer useful are three early mistakes that even I wouldn't have made.

>>96271515 (OP)
>Destroyed religion without understanding it so he doesn’t appeal to religious people
Religion might be the easiest human practice to understand.
>Stifled innovation and scientific development so he doesn’t appeal to techbros
Getting rid of the horror-tech that used to rule Earth is not stifling. He tolerated the Mechanicus remember?
>Destroyed human cultures and distinctions so he doesn’t appeal to traditionalists
Discard what is useless, keep what is valuable, he is the Bruce Lee of cultures.
>Slaughtered friendly aliens on principle so he doesn’t appeal to pragmatists
Friendly. Sure.
>Simped over the Eldar so he doesn’t appeal to human supremacists
Seeing the value of the webway and wanting one of his own is not simping.

So, is it 40k in general that bothers you, or is this a stealth "boo hoo my guys should be the flagship faction boo hoo" thread?

>>96275859
Necessary to avoid feeding Chaos, necessary to get the crusade anywhere past Terra, and necessary for victory in the Unification Wars. Respectively.

>>96276013
>Getting rid of the horror-tech that used to rule Earth
>unleashes his own horror-tech including Men of Iron, C'Tan and 20 Minor Chaos Gods

>keep what is valuable, he is the Bruce Lee of cultures.
Like..? Tech-suits repurposed for military usage?
>Friendly. Sure.
https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Interex
https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Diasporex

>>96276017
>Necessary to avoid feeding Chaos
Banning religion actually just ended up feeding chaos even more. Like, it wasn't even a necessary evil thing, he straight up achieved the exact opposite of the thing he was trying to achieve.

>>96276013
Maybe just don't simp for a commie dictator?

>>96276017
>Necessary to avoid feeding Chaos,
>half of lobotomized kill-monkeys joins Chaos

Remember, guys, the lore says that the emperor first tried uniting humans with a religion, and that failed, so he decided he hated religion. Basically the emperor was L. Ron Hubbard or something and he got salty that all of the world's other religions outcompeted his fake one, so in a fit of salt he said he anti-religion now.

He's not really an atheist.

>>96271515 (OP)
Emp is a man. The most powerful man ever, but still a man. Limited knowledged and foresight. Knew of problems and took action to solve them (risky actions which could go awry, and many often did). Emp is not moral. He is a bad 'man.' My limited understanding was that the options were to take evil actions or risk humanity dying. Unite humanity or face extinction at the hands of the orcs. He saw futures and took actions to keep humanity alive. The atrocities he committed led to better odds for survival.

>>96271515 (OP)
a higher standard of living, makes lots of believers do all sorts of crazy things

>>96275287
Overcoming through cautious education beats repression which only makes the problem worse. It's a principle that's worth living by hindsight or no and would have led us down an Interex-like path which could afford to be humane as well as human in their galactic dominance. Emps is the poster child for Hubris, his ego (in that only he can know best and everyone else is too lowly to ever handle the truth) is the flaw that retardifies any other virtues he has. >>96275432 sums it up. The Imperium isn't the best possible outcome for mankind, it's the best outcome that's compatible with the presence of a supremely arrogant self-appointed god (who's so deluded that he won't even admit to that being his goal).

>>96271981
And yet failed because living since biblical times eroded his...humanity. Pottery.

>>96278231
Cautious education is only an option when you have the time to do so. He may have had that time if he was able to raise the Primarchs himself, but even then, telling all 20 of them about Chaos is extremely risky. Since you mentioned the Interex, they were a small dominion without ambitions of expansion that knew of Chaos, but had no long term plan for stopping it. That Interex soldier who converses with Garviel Loken in Horus Rising openly tells him "Kaos is the damnation of all mankind, Loken. Kaos will outlive us and dance on our ashes. All we can do, all we can strive for, is to recognise its menace and keep it at bay, for as long as we persist." Their way of doing things, as relatively humane as it was, was not built to last and they knew it. This is to say nothing of the fact that there is no humble or humane way to achieve galactic dominance, as necessary as it may be. To your point about >>96275432, all the evidence we have about Malcador suggests that he genuinely believed in what the Emperor was trying to achieve and thought it was the best option. He even thought that mankind would always need the Emperor, even though his ultimate goal was to sever that dependency.

>>96273799
Please tell this the morons that are writing about this guy.

>>96271515 (OP)
>destroyed religion
BASED, HUMANS ARE THE NEW GODS.
>controls tech innovation
Based, so coomers don't ruin civilization again.
>kills xenos
Repeat: HUMANS ARE THE NEW GODS, therefore based.
>fucks eldars (Guilliman is based; 40k first editions had hybrids, bring them back)
Eldars are just immortal humans with long ears, aka "honorary humans".

Anon is a retard.

>>96275558
>What a load of shit. Your judgement about what makes a plan good or not is nonsense.
Generally, I believe that a plan usually qualifies as good if it succeeds at least partially at what it set out to accomplish. I don't think that's an unreasonable metric.
>You judge a plan by the information you have at the time, not by whether or not it works.
Ignoring the results of a plan just detaches the planner from all consequences of failure. That makes sense in this argument, because you're clearly trying to divorce the Emperor from the price of his own mistakes.
>Just because it worked out doesn't mean the plan wasn't fucking stupid, you just got absurdly lucky.
If a 'good' plan fails because of unforeseen events, then what is it really worth compared to a 'bad plan' that succeeds thanks to unforeseen events? The bad plan was clearly the better option all along. Maybe the words you're using just aren't really apt for what you mean. I think a better choice of words would be a meticulous plan, one that is thorough and detailed and accounts for many possibilities, versus a haphazard plan. Most people value meticulous plans over haphazard ones, and in that regard, you would be correct.
>The plan failed because of the cascading unpredictable fuck ups of multiple people he could not directly control.
Do you not see your own logic eating itself here? If he could not predict them, then he did not have a good plan, did he? Just like you couldn't predict that full nelsoning your father-in-law would crack his back and establish a friendship. If unexpected fortune or misfortune are the reason a plan goes awry or succeeds, then by your own definition, it was a shit plan.

>>96275558
part 2:
>If any one of these things played out differently, then the Imperium would be fine or at least in a much better state than it is now.
The Imperium was never fine. The Emperor himself despised every part of what he built. He used to topple empires like the Imperium, places where humanity was little more than slaves. He never wanted to do it in the first place. He only did so because he was convinced it was the only way.
>You people who just want to shit on the Emperor because he represents your shitty father or that dictator you hate or whatever the fuck cheapen the entire setting by painting him as this dipshit who didn't know what he was doing.
Anon, whatever daddy issues you're projecting on me here, the Emperor is not who you think he is. He's not perfect. He never has been. He didn't have a perfect plan, either. That much is pretty obvious just from looking at the results. If it was perfect, it would have worked. Perhaps more importantly, the setting isn't made cheaper by the Emperor making mistakes and getting called out for them. The only reason there is a setting is because the Emperor fucked up. That's how we get war without end for 10,000 years. Besides that, there's a philosophical beauty in it. Because in the end, the ultimate human, the pinnacle of what humanity could aspire to be, was still a human being.
>People who thought they knew better were the ones who fucked everything up.
Generally, a good plan will account for the human element.
>Lastly, there was no "deal" with Chaos. The Emperor stole power from the gods, because fuck the gods.
He only got that power by promising humanity in exchange for it. While he didn't uphold his end of the bargain, he still took the power of Chaos for himself. Of course, just like every Inquisitor that turns radical, it was a poison pill from the beginning. It nearly corrupted him, until he expelled it. And even now, that power he stole is going to one day turn into the Dark King.

>>96275675
>examples
>>96274845
>>96274524
>>96274447

>>96276017
>Necessary to avoid feeding Chaos
Amusingly, it was because nobody knew what Chaos was that Erebus and Kor Phaeron were able to sneak into the Legions. It only took two corrupt Astartes to bring down the entire Imperium from the inside.
>necessary to get the crusade anywhere past Terra,
Not really. It would have just taken longer, first to conquer Mars, then to rebuild the technology lost in that war. But the long term would have been a thousand times brighter for humanity. Technological growth and scientific development would mean that by the year 40k, everyone's flying around in timeships that can fire time torpedoes that age enemy ships to dust. You know, like the Dark Age of Technology. Volkite would be considered weak compared to the personal weapons everyone carries. Necron pylon tech would already be reverse-engineered and deployed throughout the Imperium to nullify warp storms and rifts outright. Humanity would actually have stood a chance of long-term prosperity even after the Emperor was Throne'd permanently.
>necessary for victory in the Unification Wars.
Nope. Again, necessary for a hasty victory. He could easily have won without needing supersoldiers, regular soldiers would have gotten the job done. It just would have taken years longer. Same reason he created the Primarchs and Astartes. It's too bad, because if he had avoided that, Chaos would not have legions of immortal supersoldiers to serve its will.

>>96279820
>He only got that power by promising humanity in exchange for it
> that power he stole is going to one day turn into the Dark King.
fanfiction and headcanon that has been never stated in official books
>>96279855
>hasty victory
That was the only kind of victory possible. The Great Crusade took 200 years and it barely beat on time the big xenos empires that were growing too powerful.

Everybody in these threads seem to forget that once Slaanesh was born and the storms that stopped warp travel dissapeared, a race to conquer the galaxy was unavoidable. Peace was never an option.

>>96279884
The mistake the Emperor made was thinking that just having a lot of territory is all you needed to be strong. There are xeno empires with a miniscule fraction of the Imperium's territory that are continuously expanding into the Imperium's territory because instead of making a deal with the devil (both literally with Chaos and metaphorically with the Mechanicum) and trying to conquer as much land as possible without particularly caring about the quality of the land, they instead focused on improving their science and industry. To put it in 4X terms the Emperor was playing Wide when he should've been playing Tall.

>>96279884
>fanfiction and headcanon that has been never stated in official books
The End and the Death is an official trilogy published by BL.
>That was the only kind of victory possible.
No, that's what Chaos convinced him was the only kind of victory possible. He was racing against a clock of his own creation: he foresaw the disaster of Chaos ascendant, and raced to try to prevent it or at least prepare humanity to defeat it rather than be broken by it, but he did not realize he was the one who caused it to happen. The Golden Path the Emperor walked was a trap from the beginning, luring him with the temptation of a golden future to accept the poison of Chaos into his soul, so that they could then transform him into the Dark King. That's the big twist of the End and the Death Part 2, where he nearly gets consumed by the Chaotic energy he's channeling. The daemons are laughing at him because he fell for the whole trap hook, line, and sinker. It's not until Olly Persson shows up and convinces him not to flip the table that the Emperor expels that power and averts that future.
>the big xenos empires that were growing too powerful.
The Emperor didn't even know the Rangdan or the Orks at Ullanor existed. They were never even a factor in his plans. Distractions at worst.
>Everybody in these threads seem to forget that once Slaanesh was born and the storms that stopped warp travel dissapeared, a race to conquer the galaxy was unavoidable.
The Emperor made it very clear in Master of Mankind that he never doubted humanity could defeat the xenos terrors in the galaxy. So long as Terra survived, which it would, humanity would prevail again and again. His only true concern was Chaos from the start. That's why he rushed his plans, so that he could complete the Webway ASAP and remove humanity's dependence upon the Warp entirely.

>>96276092
You can not think Emps is evil and also not "simp" for him.

>>96276079
>Men of Iron
Wasn't the Emperor. But good try.
>C'tan
Also not the Emperor, idk why you even tried this one.
>minor chaos gods
And you're 0 and 3.
>for military useage?
Wow, it's almost like 40k is a war game, so it focuses on...war. Funny, that.
>Interex
Human, not alien, 0-5 now. Maybe read what's on a page before you link it?
>Diasporex
Included humans, but also had aliens so hey, you weren't totally, pathetically wrong for once. They also allied with aliens over their own species, so...yeah they had to go. Completely justified. Want to go again?

>>96279902
He needed the territory to starve the growing xenos empires and kill them in the crib before it was too late. Xenos like Orks, the Rangda and worse were stopped just before they became too big to contain. There were a myriad of hostile xenos from the start, even in the Solar System, many enslaving humans like cattle.
Politics-wise, the imperium partially based its legitimacy in defending humanity from xenos, so they couldn't also ignore them.
You're thinking in 40k terms.
>>96279929
Your reading of TEATD sucks, you're missing a lot of context from many previous books, and a few 40k ones (like Godblight)
Saying that the Emperor didn't know about orks is laughable, as is forgetting that to save humanity he explicitly saids he needed to control all of it. No exceptions. Which means conquering the galaxy.
The Emperor didn't just foresaw the future, he actively worked to prune out the chance of alternative scenarios.

And if you read between lines, It's ambiguous but very possible that the Golden Path was a scam and he deliberately engineered it all to end on the Throne as part of his plan.

>>96279991
>Men of Iron
>Wasn't the Emperor.
We actually have no idea of what really happened. The lore talks about an AI rebellion, but at the same time it seems that it was more of a civil war with friendly AIs also in the human side.

Given that the Emperor is supposed to always have been involved in guiding humanity, he must have been involved in some way.

>>96280050
>We actually have no idea of what really happened.
That means blaming it on Emps is as wrong and foolish as picking anyone else to pin it on. Ever hear the phrase, "assumes facts not in evidence?" That's what this one is. The claim was Emps did it, so that guy has to either prove it, or shut his noise hole.

>>96279996
>He needed the territory to starve the growing xenos empires and kill them in the crib before it was too late
In the process of killing the bad ones he also killed all the good ones too that would've been powerful allies.

>>96279996
>Saying that the Emperor didn't know about orks is laughable,
He knew about Orks, the species. He didn't know about the Ork empire at Ullanor until the Great Crusade ran into it. That's why I specified Ullanor.
>as is forgetting that to save humanity he explicitly saids he needed to control all of it. No exceptions. Which means conquering the galaxy.
That was always a trick by Chaos, along with the rest of the Golden Path. He was duped from day one. All the Imperium has accomplished is feeding Chaos exactly what it thrives on most: negative emotions on a galactic scale. For 10,000 years.
>The Emperor didn't just foresaw the future, he actively worked to prune out the chance of alternative scenarios.
Yes, which is half the reason why there was 'no other way.' He made it that way.
>And if you read between lines, It's ambiguous but very possible that the Golden Path was a scam and he deliberately engineered it all to end on the Throne as part of his plan.
That's a stretch. That would require everything he said in Master of Mankind, even the omniscient narration in TEaTD, to be straight up lies. It would mean he planned to fail all along and put humanity eternally one move away from checkmate in the Great Game. If he was really planning that far ahead, it means he engineered a plan that relies on him to suffer in the Golden Throne for 10k years when he could have just... not gone to Molech to take the power of Chaos for himself and avoided the entire problem.

>>96280554
People who said that miss the point. For his plan to work there was no room for xenos, or even humanity offshoots like those adapted to aquatic planets etc. That's why abhumans are barely tolerated and the rest kiled.
Big E's plan was not just about human supremacism, it was about going back to an specific default human species. The one that had impacted the warp for the longest time.
>>96280643
So you don't know anything about orks, got it
> That would require everything he said in Master of Mankind, even the omniscient narration in TEaTD, to be straight up lies
The Emperor is a liar and a manipulator. Not even Malcador knew it all, and there's plenty of hints about it.
Read the intro of the Valdor book.
> it means he engineered a plan that relies on him to suffer in the Golden Throne for 10k years when he could have just... not gone to Molech
You forget that humanity is a time bomb growing in psychic potential, and fated to end like the Eldar or worse.
Add to that the opening of warp travel after the Fall of Eldar.
Add to that the xeno empires also rushing to conquer the galaxy.
Add to that possible chaos empires.

Humanity was doomed to extinction after the Age of Strife, at best being cattle to xenos or surviving in isolated systems. The idea of a peaceful galaxy without the Emperor is stupid.

>>96280724
Retards can't shut up about the Interex or Diasporex, and forget about the fucking Rangan or orks empires that would have destroyed those anyway

>>96280775
Eh, we don't know that, the Imperium gets away with being retarded because it's big but it's possible that another empire would've found a much smarter solution to the Rangdan or Orks. Or hell, maybe the Rangdan were just more benevolent than the Imperium was.

>>96280846
>maybe the Rangdan were just more benevolent
lol

>>96280943
We have no proof they weren't (especially complicated given the Imperium was fully willing to wipe out xenos who were helping humanity and the possible connection of the disappearance of two of the legions in connection with the Rangdan)

>>96280966
wtf are you talking about? Rangdan enslaved humans and had a relationship with the Slaugth. Have you even read anything about them?
Again and again, even in the Sol system, the imperium met hostile xenos that saw humans as cattle. There were many more like the Nephilim that could no be allowed to grow in power.

The 30k galaxy was not Star Trek. It was just as post-apocaliptic and fucked up as Terra

>>96281024
>Rangdan enslaved humans and had a relationship with the Slaugth
That's what the Imperium says about them after the Dark Angels destroyed most information about them.

But...even if we take you at your word. Enslaving humanity and seeing humans as cattle is what the Imperium does. The Imperium wasn't saving anybody from shit, they just wanted to be the tyrants in charge.

>>96281053
my word? lol, you're the one making up fanfiction about a xeno race always said to be hostile and dangerous as fuck.
Not to mention moving the goalposts. The point is that the galaxy was ripe for the taking. If the Imperium had not conquered it, other race would have done the same, with worse result for humanity.
That's a fact, and not your fanfiction. And it's neat grimdark that the Emperor was forced to adopt that persona to save humanity.

>>96281196
>If the Imperium had not conquered it, other race would have done the same, with worse result for humanity.
We don't know that the result would've been worse. That's the part you're just making up wholecloth.

>>96280846
>solution to Orks

Run ya gitz

>>96281053
Wait so we might as well be meat slaves of some bug race if the imperium sucks? Are you fucking dumb???

>>96281281
If we breathe the same kind of air, any planet you have is a planet that I do not and i must fight you for territory or be dominated. Its not politics its just life.

>>96281618
Or you can focus more on science and industry and developing the lands you already have to become stronger.

I'm shocked that Imperium fags are so deluded they actually think the Imperium is a great place to live and is just making the best of a bad situation. A core aspect of 40k's grimdark identity is that the Imperium is complete dogshit and has ruined humanity. That the future could have been great but the Imperium destroyed it all and pissed away any hope humanity had.

>>96281750
Most Imperium fags are actually just Marine fags, and Marine fags basically just want GI Joe in space.

>>96273799
I know for a fact that I'm a better dad.

>>96279159
Yeah, that's a not ideal but it's functional pragmatism in contrast to hubris turning designs at utopia into a mockery of itself. Emps without the defining arrogance could harness the best of an Interrex approach with a hyperhuman's capacities and vision. Such an Empire wouldn't as mighty but not being established on a rotten foundation of lies would be more enduring (Horus would have no grounds to sperg out over the supposed "divinity plot" for one thing). Endurance was all Emps needed as enough time to crawl into the Webway would've changed things completely. Should've worded it better btw but "afford" implies that dominance and humane are indeed incompatible but this is a question of degree. Repressing xenos is sensible in grimdark as is thought policing but the Imperium carries it to retarded extremes (just like the rest of its once draconian sense, now decaying inertia norms).

An Empire of people making the best of things knowing that as mortals and empires do they'll eventually fade while being as ruthless as the task demands yet no more is preferable to a cack-handed grasp at utopia that ends in failure. All those plans literally and figuratively result in a rotting corpse due to mistakes that could be evaded in hindsight but also some that could've been avoided if the goal wasn't so megalomaniacal from the outset.

>>96279991
the idea that you should ally with some genocidal aholes from outher space just because they are your species is the most amoral stance one could ever take.