Thread 96321175

Had a shower thought today, would Delta Green, if transported into the universe of WoD, be able to contain, neutralize or otherwise eliminate the Vampire threat? We're assuming that they're only going after each other, so no Deep Ones or Mi-Go for Delta Green to deal with, and also no Werewolves or Hunters for the Vampires to deal with, it's a """fair""" 1v1.
Personally my money is on Delta Green, because the Mythos is at least ten times scarier than anything WoD can muster and they seem to be handling that reasonably well, but I'm sure there's an argument to be made for both sides.

>>96321175 (OP)
Don't be bloody stupid.

>>96321338
No.

>>96321175 (OP)
Delta green doesn't "handle" anything. DG is a game about bailing water out of a sinking ship.

>>96321426
You say no, but you listen to the anon and you're not stupid. Ironic.

>>96321175 (OP)
Delta Green would get absolutely bodied. At best they are a branch of the military, which the Vamps already have control over, or loner alcoholic schizos trying their hardest to stop a flood with a teacup before they inevitably blow their brains out. Vampires' version of Delta Green, the second Inquisition, is basically Delta Green but their normal guys eventually become blessed by God to become vampire killing machines and despite this they barely can make a dent in the vampires power structure because they basically control everything; and vamps aren't even the biggest kids on the block in terms of power.

>>96321175 (OP)
It's hard to say, there's probably quite a few more Vampires than Delta Green Agents, but the same can be said about the Deep Ones and DG is proficient in handling those.
Delta Green also has like, three seperate GOOs contained, and a GOO could probably eat Caine for breakfast, but at the same time it's more because they managed to find a specific weakness that the particular God had, or it was already contained and they just kinda maintained the shit already in place...
I don't honestly know, but Second Inquisition was basically DG and they fucked up the vamps, so I guess them.

>>96321175 (OP)
Congrats, you made Hunter: The Vigil with extra steps.

>>96321910
>but at the same time it's more because they managed to find a specific weakness that the particular God had, or it was already contained and they just kinda maintained the shit already in place...
That's the thing tho. Delta Green is capable and competent of dealing with Mythos shit because it knows Mythos shit. It knows about the Elder Sign, it knows about the astronomical importance of certain stars, it knows about the memetic effects of the Play or the shit the temporal instability related to the Great Race. But if you take that away and have them fight sonething entirely different, they're just a bunch of guys with guns and a lot of government connections.
Now this also works the other way around, you drop the Camarilla in the Yog-Sothotery and they'll be completely fucked too, but that's a whole nother topic.

Delta Green exists in WoD and it's called Task Force Valkyrie, and it's just one Hunter Conspiracy among several others.

>>96322038
Vampires would fare much better against a threat of unknown nature than DG against a threat of unknown nature.
As you said, when they're out of their turf, DG is just a bunch of government agents with guns. Vampires have guns to, are much more experienced in basically every field than DG operatives (being several centuries old is quite the advantage) and have tons of superpowers on top of that.

>>96321175 (OP)
I dont really know how delta green scales but i reckon they have a decent shot.

From vtm5 and werewolf 5 the second inquisition is kind of nebulous. Their actual agents are usually just military hit squads who are good but not supernatural, just well equipped. They have a 50/50 matchup against nearly any coterie with an average age of 100, and they cant hold a candle to pentex hit squads who DO have supernatural weapons, or even things like singular werewolves. But werewolves arent invincible either, they do go down if your squads are big and your guys are elite and your bullets are silver.

The SI's biggest win that i know of was wiping out the tremere clan's head chantry in vienna so technically they can take on real power structures and ancient vamps, but that was actually the same time the tremere's founder woke up and started eating all his kids so its kind of like beating claiming you beat mohommed ali when you jumped into the ring and made it a 2v1 after he'd already gone 3 rounds against tyson

That said, vampires are cosmically doomed to die, probably in a few hundred years or less.

Anyway tldr
If the greenies are near-superhuman they can win the fights, but the real game is strategy and intel

>>96321910
>and a GOO could probably eat Caine for breakfast

Jury’s out on that one. The weakest of the “true” Antediluvians, Zapathasura, killed tens of millions of people (including supernaturals - basicaly most of Bangladesh and eastern India) and most of his entire vampire clan, the Ravnos, by the simple act of waking up. He got nuked in the face, twice, while in the midst of fighting three incredibly powerful Eastern vampires and an entire army of lycanthropes, and the nukes killed the lycanthropes and the Eastern vampires and kind of just pissed Zapathasura off. It took sunlight magically focused to over 1,000 times its normal intensity, reflected from satellites in space, to kill him…

…only the guy was the Ravnos Antediluvian, and the Ravnos are notable for being able to make illusions, including at the higher end of things, illusions so real that they ARE real, and those are Ravnos with a fraction of his power. Zapathasura should be an outright reality warper.

So it’s entirely possible that Zapathasura is actually still alive, he just made an illusion of his death that was so real that no one can tell the difference.

>>96322439
Oh, I bring this up because Zapathasura was the weakest of the “true” Antediluvians, the vampires of the Third Generation. It took all 13 of them working together to kill the three Second Generation vampires. Official lore is that the thirteen Antdiluvians plus all three members of the Second Generation, would not be able to hold a candle next to Caine’s power.

>>96321824
VtM is low-key the same thing.

All of the Elders are scheming against each other for immediate benefit, and only a handful have any kind of long-term plan and they're mostly too busy putting out fires or being petty to act.

>>96322431
The Mythos would eat the Vampires alive, spit them out and then eat them again

>>96322620
Too bad this thread isn't Vampires dropped into DG setting but DG dropped into Vampire's setting. DG gets rekted.

>>96322439
Oh I know, WoD is a very powerful setting.
But like... c'mon, it's the Mythos. Nyarlathotep vs Caine would be Nyarlathotep one-shotting Caine, realizing the curse prevents him from killing him outright, then one-shotting the Abrahamic God to lift the curse and go back to finish the job. It's just a different dimension of power imo.

>>96322643
Why would the Abrahamic God be inferior to Nyarlathotep?
Most insertions of Abrahamic God in other fictional settings have it as a boundless top-tier lovecraftian god on par with the likes of Azathot.

In WoD, it would most likely be The Principle, and the being who created Cain was probably "just" an archmaster with 7 dots in Death.

>stealth DB thread
Wish the mods were fucking useful for once and nuked this wankery instead of policing people for misgendering elves.

>>96323077
God forbid people talk about traditional games here. We really need the mods nuking harmless on topic threads for no reason, that'll save the board.

>>96323171
It's DB-tier wankery and there's no need for that. It's bad enough on /co/.

>>96321175 (OP)
that's just hunter

>>96323232
>wankery
Half this thread is just people talking about the lore of both games. The other half is people complaining about the first. You're being paranoid about something completely innocuous

>>96321175 (OP)
People ITT are grossly overestimating the competency of DG. At it's best form, it still only really had a few people involved in the conspiracy who were "in the know" about the greater concept of the mythos, and extreme compartmentalization was going on. In the current day form, they are all either what amounts to lone wolves who have "burn it all down" as standard operating procedure, or the official arm which is compromised as fuck. If DG was dropped into the world of darkness tomorrow Pentex and the Venture would be majority shareholders in the board of March Technologies by September.

>>96321175 (OP)
DG aren't even a global organization and have barely 70 active field agents to their name. No, they could not pull it off. If you want a horror TTRPG organization to fight and contain supernatural shit, you bring in the Ordo Veritatis. Delta Green are the desperate few trying to prevent the ship from capsizing. They do not have the scale or reach necessary to account for every vampiric conspiracy, let alone take on every lead of the Sabbat, Tremere and Camarilla.

DG are good at dealing with known issues because the Mythos acts in fairly consistent ways. Entire ancient vampire plots that have been going on for tens of millennia are way outside their wheelhouse.

>>96323077
>>96323232
>stealth DB thread
>DB-tier
You have not actually been in any DB thread if you believe this shit. DB threads are literally nothing but endless /dbs/ shitposting and nothing else - meanwhile, this thread is mostly lore discussion and analyzing how both factions work in their respective settings.

>>96321175 (OP)
I don't know much about Delta Green beyond the Cthulhu mythos itself, but WoD has an actual Gehenna Scenario where the masquerade gets blown and Vampires start getting absolutely BTFO by humanity. Turns out that 99% of them can't handle swat teams with phosphorous rounds kicking in the door at high noon.

Until, enough died that the really old Vampires woke up and decimated Humanity (and everyone else on Earth) with zero issues in no time flat.

So from what context I can glean of Delta Green, they might not lose, but they definitely wouldn't win either.

>>96322726
I mean, Nyarlathotep IS Azathoth, so saying Yahweh is on par with Azzy means he's on par with Nyarly too, and to me at least, a being that passively radiates creation is, conceptually, much greater than a being who actively creates.
But also, more generally, there's this kinda unspoken rule in fiction that when you add the Mythos to a setting, the Mythos trumps everything else, because that's kinda its point.

>>96322726
>Why would the Abrahamic God be inferior to Nyarlathotep?
With real world theology? No, The Abrahamic god is an omnipowerful being that exists outside of time and has foreknowledge of everything that was and will be while Lovecraftian beings regularly get set-backs. With Tabletop nerd power ranking? Yes, because irl god wouldn't be fair so he would get nerfed to being an Olympian level of divinity.

>>96324327
Brother with real world theology the Abrahamic God loses to chariots made of iron.
People kinda forget this, but Yahweh really did not start off as all-powerful. There were explicitly other Gods in early Hebrew theology, and Yahweh explicitly held no dominion over them.

>>96324346
yeah and get this, Nyarlathotep was made by a racist new englander!

>>96324352
You don't have to sell me on Nyarlathotep further, I was already arguing for him.

>>96324346
Sure but the modern god at least as i understand it is defined by the criteria from the argument from definition. It must be omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, paracausal, and (dubiously) the omnibenevolent creator of the universe.
Not to be cheeky but if your god isnt that, then you arent discussing god

>>96321175 (OP)
The problem with this scenario is the assumption that, since Delta Green is holding back the Mythos, they'd be able to hold back something else that's evil and magic and scary, like vampires.
The problem however, is that Delta Green is NOT holding back the Mythos. Delta Green's primary purpose is covering shit up, and the reason for this isn't because they don't want muh panic or anything, but because they know that if humanity at large knew about, say, the mi-go, and actually united under a single banner, and tried fighting back, and actually, even for a split second, legitimately seemed threatening to the mi-go, they would proceed to squash us like a bug in 10 seconds flat.
Delta Green is not holding back anything, at best, they're kicking the can down the road. If the Mythos actually wanted to end humanity for any reason other than "lol it'd be kinda funny" they'd do it within the hour. Saying Delta Green is containing the Mythos is like saying someone is redirecting a river when what they're doing is taking a bucket, filling it up with river water, and throwing it in a pond.

>>96324381
correct, Modern Abrahamic conceptions of god are basically tied at the hip with Greek conceptions of a singular universal force such as Plato's demiurge and Aristotle's unmoved mover.

>>96324346
>>96324381
God and the Mythos don't really work together. Like, you HAVE to make a choice at the start, which theology is "true". You can't have both Azathoth and God be the creators of the Universe, it's nonsensical.
Personally I go by this >>96324324 rule. If the Mythos is in a setting, the Mythos is the top dog, because otherwise the whole cosmic horror aspect falls flat. So the Abrahamic God is like, one of the Gods of Earth described in "The Other Gods" or something like that.

>>96324413
>You can't have both Azathoth and God be the creators of the Universe, it's nonsensical.
not without having one be a liar anyways. Personally this is why I avoid questions of the cosmic horror and go with a more personal sense of the unknown. Is the being that traps men in a winter cabin starving for multiple decades of personal hell a being of an all powerful lovecraftian being or the biblical lucifer? It doesn't really matter because you're trapped with it in a horrifying pocket dimension.

>>96324442
Azathoth would never lie! Mostly because he can't lie, since he is an amorphous mindless mass of infinite chaotic energy, but that's besides the point.
I wonder if a game where the forces of Heaven and Hell join forces to fight off the forces of the Outer Gods be too pulpy.
>Personally this is why I avoid questions of the cosmic horror and go with a more personal sense of the unknown
Yeah that's fair, and ultimately it doesn't really matter to the discussion at hand. Whether Nyarlathotep surpasses the Abrahamic God or not is irrelevant to the question of "can Delta Green fight a conspiracy 100 times older and larger and more magical than theirs while not having any of the shit that works work because it's an entirely new and different magic system?" The answer is no, probably not, although it's not 100% impossible either.

>>96324413
>You can't have both Azathoth and God be the creators of the Universe, it's nonsensical.
By definition you can, but the only thing it would really mean is that there's an entity that could btfo the entire mythos if it wanted to (it doesn't)

>>96324413
>You can't have both Azathoth and God be the creators of the Universe, it's nonsensical.
By definition you can, but the only thing it would really mean is that there's an entity that could btfo the entire mythos if it wanted to (it doesn't)

>>96324476
>>96324477
Thank you Hiroshimoot

>>96324476
Azathoth fulfills the same role as omnipotent, absolute creator as "unmoved mover" God, so no, you really can't imo. The moment you make one above the other is the moment you stop using the ACTUAL Biblical God or the ACTUAL Mythos.
Ultimately it's up to you as a GM/Keeper/ST, but strictly speaking you can't have both. Unless you somehow claim the Abrahamic God and Azathoth are the same thing, which is a fucking doozy.

>>96324512
Azathoth isn't omnipotent or absolute. The closest you could get to that is The Absolute, but whether that's nonsense or not is up in the air. Also, the nature of omnipotence is to break the paradoxical, so there is nothing saying a role can only be filled by one.

>>96324524
>Azathoth isn't omnipotent or absolute.
I disagree, he's very clearly meant to be IT. The unmoved mover, the creator, all existence comes from him. I will say I've always considered Azathoth and Yog-Shothoth to be two aspects of the same being, so maybe that's part of the reason I say that, but Lovecraft is very explicit about the fact that the Universe(and all other Universes) itself comes from the Ultimate Gods of the Ultimate Void, who themselves are the servants of Azathoth
If that's not absolute, idk what is.

>>96324546
You're welcome to have your own headcanon.

>>96324553
I mean you say that as if it's a bad thing, but headcanon is what the Mythos is all about. Lovecraft encouraged authors to have their own little headcanons and to add shit to it even if sometimes it doesn't mesh 1 to 1 to his writing. Part of what makes it so fun imo.

>>96324555
You're free to believe that.

>>96324562
I don't have to believe that, that's literally what HPL said about it. He himself barely cared about consistency, and wanted to make his writing evoke a feeling first and foremost. Hell, even the term of the Cthulhu Mythos wasn't coined by him, but by Derleth, because to Lovecraft it really wasn't a Mythos.

>>96324572
You're free to think that's true.

>>96324588
Mad?

>>96321175 (OP)
You know, vampires can use guns and be tacticool too

>>96321175 (OP)
Doesn't Delta Green ultimately lose in their own settingand the future of Cthulhu world is ruled by some evil Chinese dude?

The Cruel Empire of Tsan Chan could probably take on Wod

>>96324346
>>96324381
>>96324413
The Supreme Archetype, which Lovecraft wrote himself with some help, is really no different from Abrahamic God/the Ain Sof as depicted under the Kabbalah. In fact, it's arguably more benign in some ways because it actively aids mortal beings in transcending and attaining enlightenment so long as they know the way to get to it.

>>96324859
That's, at best, canon for Chaosium's Call of Cthulhu, not Arc Dream Publishing's Delta Green

>>96325008
My bad, I thought they were one and the same setting

>>96324859
>Cruel Empire of Tsan Chan
God dammit I hate when nation-state proper names are open compound words

>>96324512
You could have yahwe as the definitional ultimate who should have created the universe but didnt, and still have other paracausal entities like azathoth drifting about making universes when they shouldnt.

I cant prove azathoth must exist, but i dont think a benevolent god would destroy a universe and everyone in it just because whatever created it was a fuckhead

>>96326103
>Y*hw*h
>Benevolent
Are you fucking retarded?

>>96324327
So he has the exact same abilities as Yog-Sothoth, who is Explicitly below Nyarl in the cosmic hierarchy.

>>96324413
Technically, the Nameless Mist created the universe when it created Yog-Sothoth, not Azathoth

>>96322038
Better question: How do mages handle the Mythos? Do they just go Immediately insane when they awaken because presumably they're lovecraft humans learning a cosmic truth?
What about the Technocracy?

>>96326736
The way I'd interpret it is that Cthulhu waking up completely and utterly overpowers the Consensus. Cthulhu's mind is worth ten thousand times the combined minds of the rest of humanity, and that's low-balling it. Suddenly, the Consensus becomes Lovecraft magic and Lovecraft magic only, which, funnily enough, means that the Technocracy is probably less affected than a lot of the Traditions, since dark science played a huge role in Lovecraft's stories. But shit like the Celestial Choir finds all their prayers fallen on deaf ears, while the Hermetic Order realizes that only the oldest, strangest arcane symbols do anything at all anymore. That being said, Paradox is probably way less of a problem, so that's good news. Bad news is that Cthulhu himself is probably like Arete 18 and has 14 points in all the Spheres. Oops.

>>96326575
They must be, an evil god wouldnt have pulled so many punches

>>96326786
I think that only human minds influence the Consensus, hence why Vampires, Fae and such don't have any impact on the Consensus and how magic works.

>>96326786
>Bad news is that Cthulhu himself is probably like Arete 18 and has 14 points in all the Spheres. Oops.

Cthulhu got canonically knocked out by a collision with a steamship. We'll be fine.

>>96326833
>He thinks the steamship did anything
The stars weren't right. The story is very explicit about this.

>>96326824
Yeah, but Cthulhu influences human minds, and does so on a massive scale. Cthulhu had the equivalent of sleep-walking to grab a glass of water and the psychic aftershock of it caused millions of people to go insane. A fully awakened Cthulhu could make the entirety of humanity insane (or, arguably, truly sane for the first time) in no time at all.

>>96324388
Treating the Mythos as a singular, unified entity is a massive issue in itself. It's not. It's hundreds if not thousands of entities, organizations, groups, species, and societies all with their own goals, motivations, and activities that aren't aligned. CoC/DG isn't comparable to VtM.

>>96324471
>the forces of Heaven and Hell join forces to fight off the forces of the Outer Gods
I've been trying to get a group together for an "evil" run of CoC where everyone is a cultist and if they fail to stop the bad guys in time - a travelling tent revival - they'll have to face off an actual angel of God. And not that biblically accurate angel shit either, I'm talking flaming sword and feathered wings.

> while not having any of the shit that works work because it's an entirely new and different magic system
This invalidates the premise entirely as it posits that one side is literally lacking in even basic knowledge of how the setting works and loses access to its base capabilities.

>>96321175 (OP)
Which WoD; oWoD, nWoD, or gWoD? Answers will differ.

>>96324413
>you HAVE to make a choice at the start, which theology is "true"
No you don't, autismo. In fact oWoD is in itself evidence that this is patently untrue.

>>96326833
>Cthulhu has infinite cosmic power
>Gets brained by a big boat
He really is a mage, isn't he?

>>96326786
Unironically, this is one of the only situations that I've seen actively involving Dread Cthulhu that's actually interested me in a long time.
Perfect Time of Judgement scenario for a Storyteller who wants to Explicitly do Mythos shit it's great.

>>96328708
>Which WoD; oWoD, nWoD, or gWoD? Answers will differ.
Give the answer for each. I think DG gets destroyed in every scenario except perhaps 5E, but I don't know enough about that, just that it's become pretty low level (but big bad antidelluvian shit should still exist, just out of what the player is supposed to face and experience).

I'm confused. I thought this was a Delta Green vs Camarilla+Sabbat thread, not a full on 'verse vs 'verse battle

>>96326786
>Cthulu was the spirit behind NWO the whole time
woops

>>96326851
Stars are never right for Cthulhu. Fucker is a shitty priest in the shitty part of the universe.

>>96321175 (OP)
Fucking Vampires have their own Delta Green, combating their own eldritch stuff.
In the end they are one of many, many orgs in WoD. Not much changes.

>>96321175 (OP)
It's been a while since I've read it, but IIRC Delta Green is largely able to operate as it does thanks to basically being a government black ops. And in WoD the vamps have plenty of control and influence over the government, so they would inevitably shut down any funding and support for DG pretty quickly. And without that, it just turns into a group of slightly better trained Hunters with no Messenger powers. They could take down a decent amount of Kindred, but they would have 0 chance at winning the war.
At best the Camarilla would just puppeteer them against the Sabbath or something instead of cutting funding

>>96326786
>Bad news is that Cthulhu himself is probably like Arete 18 and has 14 points in all the Spheres. Oops.

You're overrating Cthulhu so much.
There is nothing he's ever showed doing that a mid-level Archmaster with no Spheres / Arcana higher than 7 or 8 couldn't do. (granted, I'm way more knowledgeable about CoD's Archmasters abilities than WoD's, and I remember that they're different. WoD Mages might be weaker, I don't know).
Even the whole species of Deep Ones Cthulhu spawned are pretty cute strength-wise compared to Vampires, which is pretty much implied to have been created (or could have theoretically been created) by a "mere" Death 7 Archmaster.

>>96328492
>I'm talking flaming sword and feathered wings.
but anon that is biblicially accurate

>>96323994
Several posts later, I'm proven right many times over. I'm reporting this stealth DB thread.

>>96321175 (OP)
I think they'll definitely be able to disrupt the Camarilla and maybe even the Sabbat, but they wouldn't be able to wipe out the vampires as a whole, no.

>>96333141
so wrestable angels?

>>96324324
>Nyarlathotep IS Azathoth

What do you mean by this?

>>96321175 (OP)
Realistically speaking, DG would get wiped, but at the same time, realistically speaking, DG would get wiped in the DG universe too, so who knows really
Really the Camarilla might appreciate Delta Green. They'd probably spend 10% of the time hunting vamps and 90% up helping vamps maintain the masquerade

>>96335899
I mean, he is explictly mentioned as being the heart and soul of Azathoth. People kinda misinterpret that as being "just" a hermes-like messenger, but the deeper you look into it the more apparent it becomes that Nyarlathotep quite literally is the conscious, active part of Azathoth.

>>96333413
>announcing a report
Retard

>>96336411
Rape for you.

>>96336234
Anon, you're essentially saying that the avatar of a god is equal to the entire main body, which is stupid. Any anon here would be able to easily shit-stomp a disimbodied heart and head in a fight.

>>96322643
>Nyarlathotep vs Caine would be Nyarlathotep one-shotting Caine
And then dying because of the seven fold curse would reflect 7 times nyarthy's power back at him.

>>96328492
>And not that biblically accurate angel shit either, I'm talking flaming sword and feathered wings.
>>96333141
despite the stupid fucking meme, both the flaming eye wheels and the pretty person in a robe are both biblically accurate angels. A better name for "biblically accurate angels" would be "culturally uncommon angels" but thats not nearly as catchy.

>>96326700
>So he has the exact same abilities as Yog-Sothoth, who is Explicitly below Nyarl in the cosmic hierarchy.
I don't know how an omnipowerful being ranks below anything in a cosmic hierarchy unless you either ignored the term omnipowerful or don't know what it means.

Let's make this thread the current WoD general.

>>96337261
You don't get it anon, maybe I'm not explaining it properly, but if you read Lovecraft it'd become really apparent. There's times in which the description of Nyarlathotep matches perfectly with that of Azathoth, times in which Nyarlathotep is shown explicit lordship pver the Universe, and it's basically outright stated that the dofference between Nyarlathotep and the Outer Gods as a whole is semantic at best.
He's not just "an avatar", he's the real deal. Azathoth is mindless because Nyarlathotep is his mind.

>>96337953
Anon, If you actually read lovecraft's work, you'd know lovecraft also never wrote anything about Azothoth dreaming the universe or being omnipotent. Azathoth dreaming the universe is a later fanfiction created as a reference to Lord Dunsany's fictional mythology "Gods of Pegana", specifically the deity called Mana-Yood-Sushai.
So are we going with the lovecraft version of nyalarthotep that's equal to an azathoth that Isn't omnipotent, or the modern version of nyarlathotep that's just a cast-off avatar below an omnipotent azathoth? You can mix and match from both interpretations.

>>96339855
Proof?

>>96339855
>>96339971
*Crickets*

>>96339971
Do you want me to post literally every reference to azathoth made by lovecraft? I can't exactly post a lack of quotes to azathoth dreaming reality now can I?

>>96340265
>ask for proof
>receive excuses
Guess that one is settled then

>>96340279
>Demands anon prove a negative while having no proof to the contrary.
Do you actually thing anons will fall for this?

>>96340291
There's the coping. Do you want your binkie young man?

>>96339971
"that shocking final peril which gibbers unmentionably outside the ordered universe, where no dreams reach; that last amorphous blight of nethermost confusion which blasphemes and bubbles at the centre of all infinity—the boundless daemon-sultan Azathoth, whose name no lips dare speak aloud, and who gnaws hungrily in inconceivable, unlighted chambers beyond time amidst the muffled, maddening beating of vile drums and the thin, monotonous whine of accursed flutes; to which detestable pounding and piping dance slowly, awkwardly, and absurdly the gigantic ultimate gods, the blind, voiceless, tenebrous, mindless Other Gods"

—The Dream-Quest of Unknown Kadath

"the awful voids outside the ordered universe where the daemon-sultan Azathoth gnaws hungrily in chaos amid pounding and piping and the hellish dancing of the Other Gods, blind, voiceless, tenebrous, and mindless, with their soul and messenger Nyarlathotep."

—The Dream-Quest of Unknown Kadath

"no beings as nearly human as these would dare approach the ultimate nighted throne of the daemon Azathoth in the formless central void."

—The Dream-Quest of Unknown Kadath

"warned him never to approach the central void where the daemon-sultan Azathoth gnaws hungrily in the dark."

—The Dream-Quest of Unknown Kadath

"headed for those unhallowed pits whither no dreams reach; that last amorphous blight of nethermost confusion where bubbles and blasphemes at infinity’s centre the mindless daemon-sultan Azathoth, whose name no lips dare speak aloud."

—The Dream-Quest of Unknown Kadath

"leaving behind the stars and the realms of matter, and darting meteor-like through stark formlessness toward those inconceivable, unlighted chambers beyond Time wherein black Azathoth gnaws shapeless and ravenous amidst the muffled, maddening beat of vile drums and the thin, monotonous whine of accursed flutes."

—The Dream-Quest of Unknown Kadath

>>96340304
"(tri)butes to Him in the Gulf, Azathoth, He of Whom Thou hast taught us marv(els)"

—The Whisperer in Darkness

"and I started with loathing when told of the monstrous nuclear chaos beyond angled space which the Necronomicon had mercifully cloaked under the name of Azathoth."

—The Whisperer in Darkness

"Son of the dogs that howl in the maelstrom of Azathoth!"

—The Horror in the Museum

"He must meet the Black Man, and go with them all to the throne of Azathoth at the centre of ultimate Chaos. That was what she said. He must sign in his own blood the book of Azathoth and take a new secret name now that his independent delvings had gone so far. What kept him from going with her and Brown Jenkin and the other to the throne of Chaos where the thin flutes pipe mindlessly was the fact that he had seen the name “Azathoth” in the Necronomicon, and knew it stood for a primal evil too horrible for description."

—Dreams in the Witch-House

"from what he had read in the Necronomicon about the mindless entity Azathoth, which rules all time and space from a curiously environed black throne at the centre of Chaos."

—Dreams in the Witch-House

"or in the spiral black vortices of that ultimate void of Chaos wherein reigns the mindless daemon-sultan Azathoth?"

—Dreams in the Witch-House

"He thought of the ancient legends of Ultimate Chaos, at whose centre sprawls the blind idiot god Azathoth, Lord of All Things, encircled by his flopping horde of mindless and amorphous dancers, and lulled by the thin monotonous piping of a daemoniac flute held in nameless paws."

—The Haunter of the Dark

“Azathoth have mercy!"

—The Haunter of the Dark

>>96340291
>>96340304
Nevermind, anon apparently did fall for it.

>>96340304
>>96340312
>the centre of infinity
>Boundless
>Nyarlathotep is its soul
I guess disproof is fine too.

>>96340325
>Can't read
So you're trolling to avoid facing the face you obviously lost now?

>>96340330
I don't see how Azathoth being referred to as infinity itself is proof of your claims. It means the exact opposite of them, in fact.

>>96340330
>the face you obviously lost now
Are you fucking chinese? The west doesn't use the concept of "Face" in our culture.

>>96340336
>Not a single reference of omnipotence.
Your reading comprehension is atrocious.

>>96340349
Being infinite is omnipotence tho.

>>96332835
>WoD Mages might be weaker
Other way around. WoD mages are stronger at lower level, but are more limited by paradox than CoD mages.
Cthulhu would be weaker than most master mages in WoD.

>>96340353
No, it's not. Omnipotence is the ability to do anything. Being infinite just means you're very big.

>>96339855
There's a literal line in Fungi from Yuggoth that explicitly states the flute players around Azathoth are the ones forming the laws of creation, with the energies of his dream.

>>96340366
Anon, it's not being "very big", it's being bigger than everything ever and being more than 'all', and more powerful than 'all'. There's a reason the Abrahamic God is called Infinite interchangeably with Omnipotent.

>>96340366
Are you literally retarded? Infinite power=omnipotence. Infinite knowledge=omnisience

>>96340366
>No, it's not.
Proof?

>>96340380
>There's a reason the Abrahamic God is called Infinite interchangeably with Omnipotent
You also seem to know nothing about modern abrahamism. YHWH isn't called infinite "interchangably" with being omnipotent, they're always very specifically used inclusively to describe god being omnipresent. God is "infinite" because he's literally everywhere all at once, being omnipotent is a separate additional thing on top of that. Churches are very, Very anal about this(and choir boys).

>>96340387
Funny how none of the quotes of azathoth say he has infinite power Or infinite knowledge. In fact they're very clear he's Mindless, so infinite knowledge is a hard no.

>>96340403
>God is "infinite" because
Because to be infinite is to be omnipotent.

>>96340412
It says that he's infinite dumbass. Because he's the God of the Mythos. Lovecraft is so explicit about this in the Fungi from Yuggoth.
"Here the vast Lord of All in darkness muttered
Things he had dreamed but could not understand,
While near him shapeless bat-things flopped and fluttered
In idiot vortices that ray-streams fanned.

They danced insanely to the high, thin whining
Of a cracked flute clutched in a monstrous paw,
Whence flow the aimless waves whose chance combining
Gives each frail cosmos its eternal law."

>>96340417
Proof?

>>96340412
Says pretty clearly he's the center of infinity, anon.

>>96340423
Proof of what?

>>96340420
Oh, so it wasn't azathoth that made the universe but the bat-things around him? So even the most basic display of azathoth being supposedly omnipotent is False?

>>96340425
Still nothing about omnipotence.

>>96340442
It's already been conclusively proven that infinity = omnipotence. So yeah we can safely say Azathoth is omnipotent.

>>96340387
Proof?

>>96340434
>the vast LORD of ALL in darkness muttered
>Whence FLOW the aimless WAVES whose chance combining gives each frail cosmos its eternal law
What is this level of reading comprehension that you're having. How much more clear does he have to be clear about this? The music that lulls Azathoth is the music that forms the laws of the Universes. It's literally like, so fucking clear.

>>96340449
Anon, why are you lying so clearly and obviously? If you're gonna shitpost, at least put in some effort.

You guys are really lame and gay right now.

>>96340451
>the vast LORD of ALL in darkness muttered
So not including the stars, most forms of energy, most matter, etc? Sounds pretty limited.

>>96340461
>Gets proven wrong
>"Y-you're lying!"
Whatever suits your headcanon anon.

>>96340466
What

>>96340465
Proof?

>>96340465
Anytime /tg/ gets tasked with a reading comprehension test it devolves into this. We should just rangeban everyone outside of Western Europe.

>>96340465
>lame
The Delta Green fags
>gay
The WoD fags

>>96340467
>Makes basely statement
>Is called out
>Doubles down
The cycle of anon

>>96340466
Anon it says all. And besides that, dark matter is over 85% of all matter in the universe, so you're double wrong.

>>96340474
>Western Europe
Western europe is looking to range-ban 4chan as a website, so...

>>96340481
Weird admission but ok.

>>96340481
Infinite is omnipotent. Something being described as the infinite boundless lord of all is so very explicitly supposed to be god it's not even funny.
Also this has nothing to do with the question of if Nyarlathotep is Azathoth or not. He very clearly is either way.

>>96340483
Oh nooo, azathoth has power over the matter and energy that barely does anything!

>>96340498
>Holds the entire universe together
>"barely does anything"
Azathoh holds power over everything btw.

>>96340496
Proof?

>>96340498
Ok now you're just purposefully trolling.
Lord of all in darkness muttered doesn't mean he's the lord of everything that's dark, it means the lord of all is muttering in darkness.

>>96340503
>I have power over gravity,
>gravity affects everything,
>therefore I am omnipotent!
There's a slight flaw with this logic. Any powers with any kind of limitations are, by definition, not omnipotence.

>>96340496
Azathoth isn't a deity because he isn't explicitly referred to as a deity either apparently.

>>96340503
"Blind Idiot God"
He is worse than a Genie

>>96340513
Nah he just holds power over everything.
Concession accepted on you not knowing how dark matter and energy worked btw kek.

>>96340380
>There's a reason the Abrahamic God is called Infinite interchangeably with Omnipotent.
wrong. Being infinite is Omnipresent, which is different from all-powerful which is omnipotent.
t. Abrahamic

>>96340518
Sounds like cope.

>>96340521
And to be omnipresent you would have to be infinite, and to be infinite means you're omnipotent as you're all powerful.
t. Ordained Rabbi

>>96340521
>t. Abrahamic
Oh, so literal retard
I see I see

Off to ask uncle google for help again I see

>>96340531
incorrect. Something is fully capable of being omnipresent while being incapable of acting with any kind of force which is why with regards to god its distinctly stated that he is omnipresent, omniscient, omnipotent, and omnibenevelont.
>>96340537
*tips fedora at u*

>>96340548
Incorrect. Omnipresence is already a paradox meaning you're able to break the laws of the universe meaning you're more powerful than everything, ie 'all', and are omnipotent.
There's a reason, as said, the short hand is simply that God is Infinite (because it means omnipotent).

>>96340564
>Schizophrenic leap in logic.
Because a ghost being able to break physics by passing through walls also means it's omnipotent right?

>>96340537
You just know it's gonna be good when some desert cultist doesn't even understand his own belief system.

>>96340564
>you're able to break the laws of the universe meaning you're more powerful than everything,
but thats just purposefully being wrong
>he short hand is simply that God is Infinite
not at all, when we say God is infinite, what we are saying is... God is infinite.

>>96340548
Omnipotence doesn't actually exist, neither does omnipresence or omniscience (and ESPECAILLY not omnibenevolence) so this is, at best, arguing semantics.
Lovecraft very clearly meant for Azathoth to be the Lord of the Universe, he's very clear about this. He's at the center of the Ultimate Gods of the Ultimate Void ffs.

>>96340572
Ghosts don't exist, anon.

>>96340574
>but thats just purposefully being wrong
Non-argument.
>not at all
Proof?

>>96340573
I'm sorry your mom made you go to church when you didn't want to go.

>>96340586
She didn't. I'm sorry yours did until you got stockholm'd though.

>>96340580
>>96340584
"Yeah well none of this is real anyways so shut up."
We are talking about fictional universes. Doesn't it "not being real" mean that these terms now apply?

>>96340586
Why do you claim that this is the only possible reason someone might have for not being christian? It's very silly and arrogant.

>>96340589
Yeah, and if we're talking about the fictional universe of Lovecraft we shouldn't apply christian theology. Azathoth is meant to be the highest power in Lovecraft's universe, saying he isn't is completely wrong.

>>96340589
Non-argument.
>We are talking about fictional universes.
A fictional universe*, anon.

>>96340591
anon I never mentioned christianity, and I didn't say that all non christians are non christian because they were forced to go to church. Merely that his childish hostility is reminiscent of a redditor.

>>96340580
>This is fiction, so the words mean whatevere I want them to mean rather than their actual definition.
Nice cope.

>>96340599
You literally did in the post being replied to. Such an obvious lie.

>>96340606
Well hey nobody has ever accused the "abrahamics" of being honest. Or smart. Or consistent.

>>96340599
You said you were abrahamic, so you're either christian, muslim or jewish, and christian is by far the most likely.

>>96340606
Anon I'm beginning to think you might be either schizo or stupid. You know theres like 5 major world religions that are either abrahamic or partially abrahamic? "desert cultist" could be used for any of these.
>>96340611
lmao oh I see whats going on here now.

>>96340627
Anon, there are three. Either you're so stupid you don't know basic things about your own faith, or you can't help but lie on impulse.

So how about Delta Green guys

>>96340627
Only Christians have Churches, anon. Gosh, you're so easy to see through.

Back to uncle google, maybe some papa gpt too kek

>>96340646
>Only Christians have Churches
Every religious institution is called a "church" in burger-land.

>>96324327
It's mostly that in real world theology, the Abrahamic god is a being outside of reality who creates and sustains it by thinking about it. To use a nerdy computer analogy, it's a hypervisor sustaining a virtual machine that is our world--if it stops running that VM, we cease to exist, and it can modify it at will. We can only interact within the virtual machine itself and have no meaningful way to exert our will outside of the system.

You could make an argument that old ones are similarly outside of reality but that's beyond our ability to compare two beings like that since we have no frame of reference for them.

>>96340638
Outside of having experience with eldritch beings, most of what can be discussed about their impact against the vamps has been. They really can't do much because they're not big enough and the Camarilla essentially owns the government.

>>96340745
Also incorrect.

>>96321175 (OP)
Unless DG has counters to the mind affecting Disciplines they're not going to last against the Vampires. Honestly, I just don't know enough about Delta Green.

>>96345951
They have counters to some of the Mythos mind control things, not to others.
They probably lose to Dominate

>>96340636
Druze and Baha'i are abrahamic

>>96346065
Major world religions, anon, not "so tiny they couldn't form a country".

>>96321175 (OP)
Well DG would basically have to start from scratch when it comes to information gathering. Part of the reason they do as well as they do is because they have like a century of intel to go off of. Another factor is scale. The cults and mythos incursions they typically need to deal with are small scale, at most a community of a few thousand fish worshipers in one place, whereas the masquerade is a global network that is very well established. If we're saying Delta Green and only Delta Green, I think they're going to struggle to get a handle on things before being wiped out. However if we say Delta Green has enough information going into it, has reliable and trusted sources for information, and the comparable organizations from all the other nations that have one in the Delta Green setting are also present and also have said background intel, then it's at best, maybe a fair matchup.

While they need to deal with scheming international cults with magic, and often guidance from alien intelligences on a regular basis, they struggle to fully deal with them, it's more putting out fires when they start. The masquerade on the other hand, while they do have magic and an international conspiracy as well, tend to spend more time fighting themselves than effectively ruling the world.

I think Delta Green would get pretty good at killing vampires when they find them, but they'd never be able to wipe them out, and for their part the masquerade would probably not unify on the issue of Delta Green, so would never put their full resources into getting rid of them.

>>96332299
Delta Green in their own setting already got shut down. They basically just went underground and all their guys work for other letter agencies and private firms to exploit the resources of the government to support their true mission.