Thread 96349672

Let's be honest, if Gygax was in /tg/ today he'd be one of those spiteful DMs that hates his players and makes sure they're not having fun, and constantly posts about how roleplaying ruined D&D.

>>96349672 (OP)
Maybe, i think it might have just been a different culture though

>>96349768
gary gygax just hates LARP and he hates LARP in RPGs

>>96349672 (OP)
And suddenly the quality of this board would skyrocket!

Gygax was stupid faggot, and anyone who idolizes him is an even bigger faggot.

>>96349672 (OP)
And he would be right.

>>96349672 (OP)
The things we consider spiteful today did not have that air about them originally.

You see a DM that hates his players by making the game grueling. The players saw a challenge to overcome instead of a fantasy to fulfil immediately.

Were he here, with his reputation intact, there would be more varied opinions on how to play a TTRPG. Condering Gygax is the dnd guy, this kind of mentality would massively improve the sludge dnd is being filled with right now.

But you will pretend otherwise, because this is a bait thread.

>>96349672 (OP)
so he was based then?

>>96349991
>You see a DM that hates his players by making the game grueling.
DM vs player mentality is seperate from game difficulty
No one has ever seriously said to make the game easier for its own sake, thats a made up enemy that exists in your head
People hate DMs who make unfair challenges solely to kill the players, not properly challenging scenarios

>The players saw a challenge to overcome instead of a fantasy to fulfil immediately
You act like these two are mutually exclusive or that people only want one or the other

>>96350018
>or that people only want one or the other

Uh...who's gonna tell him?

>>96350056
>DM for my playera
>send them a proper fight with a much higher than recommended difficulty
>they play just fine
Its almost like some people are just accusations out their ass

>>96349672 (OP)
Theater kids weren't a thing back then. It was mostly nears with Sabbath records trying to out edgy each other

Theater kids weren't a thing back then. It was mostly loner nerds with Sabbath records trying to out edgy each other

>>96349860
>t. someone wrong and dumb.

>>96350142
>T. A pussy

>>96350018
>DM vs player mentality is seperate from game difficulty
The DM controls the difficulty, it's literally one of the main purposes behind there even being a DM. All his encounters are inherently supposed to be against the players. Otherwise it's just "narrative setpieces" where you're guaranteed to win and the encounter exists solely to progress a story, which at that point why even play the game? Just do some theater improv or roleplay chatroom type of thing
>People hate DMs who make unfair challenges solely to kill the players, not properly challenging scenarios
Outside of puzzles, how do you make a challenging encounter that doesn't exist solely to kill the players? The entire point of combat is to threaten the players with death and make them think on their feet on how to handle the encounter to avoid said death. Remember, it is always a valid option to try to flee from combat and not engage with a monster that can easily kill the party.

>>96350147
You thinking that is why you want to touch me?

>>96350154
>The DM controls the difficulty, it's literally one of the main purposes behind there even being a DM.
Which is why treating the DM as an enemy is dumb
He can kill the playera at a whim and no one ia having fun
The DM is meant to set the challenge yo faciltiate enjoyment, not be an enemy to overcome

>The entire point of combat is to threaten the players with death and make them think on their feet on how to handle the encounter to avoid said death.
The DM could just sic a tarrasque on the party while they are in an inescapable arena, and thats not fun for anyone
Combat being challenging does not mean combat is unfair

>>96350175
The DM doesn't have to completely unlevel the playing field but he should still be trying to kill the player. Quit going to extremes.

>>96350175
Who is the enemy then? Random tables? A premade module? The DM is inherently the "enemy" of the players, as they are the ones creating the enemies and challenges for them to attempt to overcome. If the DM is a friend to the players then there will never be a true challenge and the players will never die or truly fail, which again, why play the actual mechanical game at that point? You've already won, if you want just want to create a story and talk to each other in character then go do improv roleplay. There's literally no need for the ruleset
>The DM could just sic a tarrasque on the party while they are in an inescapable arena, and thats not fun for anyone
DM going "okay you all die and there's nothing you can do" is not what anyone here was talking about. That's not unfair encounters either, that's unwinnable combat. There is no challenge there, you auto lose and die with no option of victory or escape, it is no different from the auto win encounter.

>>96349672 (OP)
Everyone gets to run their own table however they want. That's what's great about ttrpgs.

I honestly have never understood the interest in Gygax. Who cares what he would have thought? Play games.

>>96350208
>but he should still be trying to kill the player
If the DM wants to kill the players, he can do so at any time
The DM has to handicap himself to give the players a fair chance at winning

A bunch of goblins acting with a god-like knowledge of the gamestate without any in-universe justification is cheap and the players will catch on pretty quickly

>>96350214
>A premade module
Pre-made modules, which are intended to give you a good grasp of how to play, rarely ever incentive the DM to be as ruthless as possible
The DM is a director that createa engaging scenarios for the players, not an enemy

>>96350228
And the original point was that players back in the day did find difficult, unfair encounters to be engaging scenarios due to the challenge they presented and the thinking and strategy your group needed to employ to try to overcome it and not die, and many modern players now act like these are anathema to the entire concept of the game. You keep getting hung up on random words and details without responding to the main point of the post

>>96350252
>did find difficult, unfair encounters to be engaging scenarios due to the challenge
The way the game was meant to be played, challenges were often fair
The only times unfair challenges were presented were in high-level modules intended to knock a prideful party down a peg

>and many modern players now act like these are anathema to the entire concept of the game. You keep getting hung up on random words and details without responding to the main point of the post
Nothing has changed, players still do want challenge when they play
They just dont want the DM to be a dick who plays solely to kill the players as quickly as possible rather than creating scenarios that are fun for the player

>>96350252
Arer you sixty five? Then shut up. Don't pretend you have the slightest fucking clue what those players thought and felt. Know what's a good indication of what players wanted? The things that became more common over time. Know what's a good indication what players didn't want? The things that became less common over time. No one was dragged anywhere kicking and screaming.

>>96349672 (OP)
well yeah, he was literally one of the biggest proponents against having character creation start with a character concept, as well as the other D&D sacred cow I most hate: armor and evasion being mechanically identical.
If I had a time machine, I would abort Gygax first thing just for the slimmest possibility that TTRPGs could have a development history not shackled to such an imagination-averse bitch.

>>96349672 (OP)
>Let's be honest
>lies

>>96350268
>The way the game was meant to be played, challenges were often fair
>Looks at AD&D
>Random unpredictable traps that force save-or-die
You're not just wrong, you're delusional.

>>96350334
>Random unpredictable traps that force save-or-die
Bro, your hirelings?
Poor preparation is no excuse.

>>96350353
That strat is only available if your party doesn't get the "has a paladin" debuff.

>>96350353
You had a cap on how many hirelings (henchmen) you could have across an entire campaign in AD&D, if you sacrifice them like that you'd not get any more.
Keep trying

>>96350378
I don't remember that rule.
So if you reach your cap, magically go back in time 100 years and try to hire someone they categorically refuse?

>>96350557
NTA but it was tied to your charisma, higher the starting cha the more henchmen you could have in your character's lifetime limit.
In AD&D you had three classes of NPC:
>hireling
tradesmen, the local alchemist, a friendly witch, etc. that you hire to help you out with a specific task. Rarely actually go into the dungeon with you, very hesitant and unlikely to put themselves into dangerous situations. They fuck off after they've finished the job you paid them to do
>follower
your castle guards and serf that hang out back home, you get them when you reach higher levels, can be used for grand mass combats sometimes. Do not follow you on adventures
>henchmen
basically what hirelings are often used as in nu-dnd, actual party member NPCs that will be loyal and adventure alongside the core group as long as you take care of them

>>96350314
I do wonder if RPG's would've been inevitable without him or not. Probably not, but something similar was still bubbling.
I'm mainly just thinking about those people who treat Gygax's vision is the only true way and everything else after him(even in the 70's) that strayed from it are aberrations that killed RPG's after they were born.

>>96349838
No, it would just be more of the same low-quality garbage it is now. Whiners whine because they can't create.

>>96350686
They were also backup characters in case your main character died (a common thing in games of the time), allowing you to just pick one and immediately carry on with the game in session. It got rid of having to take an hour out to roll up another character, or the immersion breaking "Your twin brother leaps from a nearby bush and claims all your previous dead characters possessions and the party agrees" bollocks.
Instead, the sergeant at arms/squire/apprentice who accompanied your dead character picks up his master's sword and carries on with the quest.

>>96350018
>People hate DMs who make unfair challenges solely to kill the players, not properly challenging scenarios
Players can not tell the difference, you filthy player scum.
It could be the exact same encounter. If they barely win they feel like it was a "proper" challenge. If they lose that same encounter was the DM trying to kill them.
Because a 'proper challenge' in the milleu IS trying to kill them and stands a good chance at doing so.

>>96350214
>If the DM is a friend to the players then there will never be a true challenge and the players will never die or truly fail, which again, why play the actual mechanical game at that point?
There's a good reason for this; you want a narrative back and forth without having to invent reasons for it to happen whole cloth.
Even if the players are guaranteed to win in the end, the bad guy introducing a complication for the players to solve that the players weren't expecting still generates fun.
Like if the enemy wizard drops a fireball the downs a player or two it's still interesting just like how if it were a movie and the enemy wizard drops a fireball and incapacitates a character or two for the encounter.

At what point did players just become so fearful of losing games?
>But we've grown attached to our characters after a multi session mega epic
Well maybe that's your bigger problem than a DM with a pair of balls.

lolok

>>96349672 (OP)
So he'd be objectively correct?

>>96354406
>Players can not tell the difference, you filthy player scum.
They absolutely can. If your encounters are so unbalanced that the odds of the players winning are basically 0%, or you cheat because you're a sore loser who shouldn't be GMing, fuck you.
>T. GM.

>>96350752
So stop posting then.

>>96354406
>Players can not tell the difference, you filthy player scum.

Lol.

I'm a forever GM, and I can definitely tell when my players are having fun when I fuck with them and when they're not, in which case I back off.

>>96349672 (OP)
And Arneson would be the opposite. He was always the better of the pair.

he literally was this back then OP

>>96349672 (OP)
Gygax would be one of the worst "that guy" DMs because not only does he love to dish it out, he can't take any pushback against his adult dragon player character power fantasies when someone else gets a turn at the screen.

>>96349672 (OP)
Gygax is a dead faggot and nobody should give a fuck what his dead faggot-ass would've hated.

>>96354455
Your games suck and are boring, and I can tell as much immediately from how you think movies and tabletop games work the exact same way.

>>96358074
This is just good advice about metagaming though.

>>96358074
This is in a section explicitly about dealing with asshole players and it basically ends by just saying you should just man up and tell the pricks they're not welcome if they can't behave.

99% of mentions about Gygax ITT are people who know jack shit.
Basically the equivalent of a retard who thinks he knows RPGs because he heard summaries of CR episodes second-hand.

>>96359184
If it just said "get rid of them" it would be obviously fine, but this passive aggressive adversarial shit where you keep trying to bully people the players out of behaviours you don't like instead of fucking talking to them like an adult is the root of nearly everything wrong with D&D play culture.

>>96349672 (OP)
Lets be honest, isnt it great how you can make up the most inane shit about dead people and they just take it?

>>96349846
Ok, thanks for you input Faggot Prime.

>>96350376
Or if they just aren't psychopaths who treat hirelings like Soviet prison troops.

>>96359800
It's literally just saying to let the group help handle people being douchebags but the faggot who posted it excluded this that prepend it:
"HANDLING TROUBLESOME PLAYERS
Some players will find more enjoyment in spoiling a game than in playing it, and this ruins the fun for the rest of the participants, so it must be prevented.
Those who enjoy being loud and argumentative, those who pout or act in a childish manner when things go against them, those who use the books as a defense when you rule them out of line should be excluded from the campaign.
Simply put, ask them to leave, or do not invite them to participate again."

>>96349672 (OP)

He seems like he was a pissant. Lazy, wasn't interested in in his kids until they were old enough to play games with, created a module full of death traps to fuck with people bragging about their characters, got super bitter when TSR chased him out, and turned even more fussy and argumentative when he got old.

>>96360065
>uhmmm ackshually Gygax was le heckin problematic

Was it your intention to sound like a total faggot?

>>96349672 (OP)
>GM comes up with a quest for the evening
>set up characters, locations and combat encounters
>le randumb playerfag assaults the questgiver
>smartass argues with you until he can skip a majority of the content by doing some dumb shit like le flooding the cave XD or whatever
>everybody has some meta build so they just stomp every enemy anyway and seethe at you if you make it challenging
>all the prep time wasted
DMs are playing the game too and can have some fun with it, he doesnt just exist to service the players and serve as an intermediary for their drama. Doesnt mean he is "spiteful", its actual the exact opposite where playerfags throw a hissyfit whenever things dont go their way.

>>96350742
Greg Stafford would have set out to fulfil a ttrpg-adjacent vision quest regardless of context. Prety sure Traveller was its own thing too.

>>96361382
Being a drug fueled criminal isn't based, moms were right to call D&D satanic

>>96362822
Traveler might have been the one that would've happened anyway.
Stafford was completely fine with Glorantha staying as a wargame setting until his friends kept asking for an RPG after they were playing D&D

>>96361382
Based on what I've seen about him the only positive thing you can say about Gygax as a GM was that he was quite as shit tier as John Wick.

>>96363557
To be honest, if you were my kid I would be on drugs all the time too, I would be trying to figure out via psychedelics how the fuck my kid became such a massive faggot before going out one last time to buy new-ports and milk and never coming back.

>>96364206
Based on what I know about you, I assume that you're on a Sex Offender List somewhere.

>>96349672 (OP)
>roleplaying ruined D&D.
it did

>>96349672 (OP)
Gygax was a wiener

>>96349672 (OP)
Gygax didn't shitpost, he made shitpost modules to troll people who annoyed him.