Thread 96360880

Has the army size bloat of 40k generally been a positive or negative for the game?

>>96360880 (OP)
Big negative. Back when I played it (4th edition) a 2000 point game would take way too fucking long to play.

>>96360880 (OP)
If table size had increased with it, then it would be cool. Crowded tables just look like shit, and serve only the company that sells those models. But on a vast table, a huge army looks great.

>>96360880 (OP)
Positive. More models = more money = gatekeeping poorfags + GW profits

>>96361560
= game longevity*

>>96360880 (OP)
Negative, but "size bloat" is often misleading, because the shift away from infantry has been far worse.

>>96360880 (OP)
big models are for people who are only buying a single model to display
but for the people who actually buy an army, even one, will see they have much and much less space available to put their dudes
for the whales it means they'll be losing closet space and they'll be quicker to come to their senses that "wow this is a waste of money" when they see they can't fit anything in their closet anymore

>>96361560
>poorfags
Kek this 40kuck cope always makes me laugh.
Pic related, these are not NEET losers, but actually wealthy aristocrats!!!

Look at the two pics. Smaller armies allow for someone to put some effort into it. I could build and paint that top force in about a week while working a full time job and balancing a family.

If I had to put the same effort into the 2nd it would take me 2 months because of all the details and quantity of minis. So naturally I’d do what that guy did and abuse the nuln oil wash.

The time I gained by having a small army would mean I’d consider a 2nd force or build terrain with leftover plastic scraps and what sticks to PVA to compliment my force and actually play the game.

Pic related. Utter perfection and inspiring.

40k has been getting worse with every edition since they've increased army sizes. The game was never meant to be played at the current size and it painfully shows

Exactly, too few people talk about the table size part of the equation. In a vacuum, neither model count bloat or model size creep are huge problems, but take both of those together with table size shrinkage and you have a massive difference between how much room there used to be on a table vs how much of the space is taken up by models now before a turn is even taken

>>96361568
>= game longevity*
>game is utter trash because skirmish table are not designed for such amount of models

>>96360880 (OP)
This is why I play Grey Knights, I prefer smaller armies. Less to paint, less to manage.

>>96360880 (OP)
Quar should be a playable race in 40k, someone needs to do rules for this.

>>96361357
8x4 is the master race table size anyway all games should be made to fit it (except skirmish games)

>>96361357
>>96361523
I had a mate who was a school teacher. One summer six of us got together for a game of 40k in one of the portacabins. We pushed eight tables together, used all the WHF terrain we had, built up hills and cliffs with books and blankets and played a massive game using everything we had (marines, IG, Sisters vs Orcs, Orcs and DA) in a massive xenos vs Imperium battle that lasted three days. It was fantastic. Whenever I look at the tiny 2x2 tables with a 4 turn limit GW insists on now, I just sigh and shake my head.

>>96365379
GW hates complex maneuver games
>makes boards tiny
>gives everyone free outflank
>makes models larger and more numerous
The average game feels like a bad apocalypse game now, except this time you are trapped in a MOBA map

Could GW ever even go back if they saw the error of their ways.

>>96360880 (OP)
1k points should be the current standard

>>96361523
How does modern 40k play on the good old 6'x4' table? Has anyone here tried it?

>>96362284
What compels people to dye their hair like that? It looks awful.

>>96370457
Clown blood, flowing through their veins. Unions with the Clussy can cause some offspring that some would deem... unnatural

>>96361560

more like gatekeeping kids. GW plastic is overpriced, but pretty much any working adult can afford it. Even going full retard and buying 2000 points at once shouldn't ruin you or your finances, a good gaming pc can cost just as much.

>>96370986
>a good gaming pc can cost just as much
That's an understatement, at today's prices a reasonably high end graphics card alone will set you back more than a typical 40k army.

>>96360880 (OP)
in the start of the 3rd edition, when the armies all had leaflet codexs, you could play 3000-4000 point games pretty fast with non-horde armies.

>>96362284
I can see why this image is constantly being posted and I have to rant.
This image actually is making me look at alternative wargames.
It makes me want to starve my chubby body into being skinny.

And I genuinely feel bad for this guy.
What does a man have to be subjected against to eventually either not care to a self detrimental fault or lose self awareness in their appearance?
He looks like a phrase I've seen making it's rounds called "living stereotype" like he has perfectly tailored his appearance to look like it was taken out of a cartoon caricature trying to negatively portray wargamers.

How do you help people like this?

What ties the image all together is that the board itself is sterile of any effort to be visually appealing to help wargamer imagination as they roll dice on the tabletop.

>>96361938
I have a 4th edition space marine army, when I play I get smashed to pieces, had to buy some big dreads and 2 lancers to start surviving longer

>>96369683
JUST play older editions in your local scene

Honest question: Can most of the issues mentioned itt avoided simply by playing 1000-1500 point games?

>>96370986
>pay 1.5-2k for all the mini's you need and god forbid you pick a more expensive faction like ad-mech
>pay an additional 200 for paints and terrain
>spend probably 50+ hours painting and repainting your mini's because unless your a professional artist, your going to fuck them up and need to redo some of them
>do all this, so you can go to the closest game store an hour away, once a month if your lucky to play a SINGLE game (with a couple game modes if your feeling generous) and maybe have fun doing it
I genuinely struggle to think of a hobby that has such an obscene cost of not just money but time before you can actually sit down and engage with it. A gaming pc can do so much more, outside that one monthly 6 hour session, all that plastic sits on your shelf doing fuck all. Comparing to non-wargame table top, you can usually get multiple factions to play as all included with a single copy of the game that costs maybe 50 bucks. this shit costs thousands of dollars and probably over 100 hours of assembly and painting. How the fuck does anyone get into 40k nowadays, or is it strictly nostalgia ridden manchildren who've been buying 2 new kits a year for a decade that call this shit "affordable"

>>96379039
I grabbed a random Black Templars 2k tournament list and it came to roughly £750 if you buy everything direct from GW at full RRP like some sort of fucking maniac, so you can easily shave £100+ off of that through third party retailers. Warhammer is very expensive by plastic toy soldier standards, but in absolute terms compared to a lot of "grown up" hobbies (including your gaming PC example) it's about par for the course.

Unless you live in Australia of course, in which case you have my condolences.

>>96378487
That is the ideal solution.

The PROBLEM however and something OP and everyone else missed is that the average 40k player , casual or 'hardcore' has all been brainwashed into thinking 2k is the minimum because either its the tournement standard or...it's just what you do it's where the game is most """balanced"""

If even 1250 was the normal average game or the thing new players were pushed to build to it would solve so many issues but alas GW has tricked us all into thinking 2k pts or bust and that lines their pockets well

>>96377122
Grim. Infantry is supposed to be the core of the game. You should try to recruit others into playing 4e rules.

>>96376135
The pic of the MtG game night from the "How would you describe your gaming group?" thread is much worse anon. It's just what nerds look like for the most part, plus or minus the dyed hair.

>>96378423
That's not what I'm asking though

>>96379039
Painting and building is the main hobby, you could just play the game on TTS or with empty bases if you didn't want to wast your time anon

>>96379039
I sympathise with the claim that the actual game is, for most people and in general, a thing to do with the models. The game contextualises the models in a pleasing and satisfying way, it structures your hobbying and gives you goals, it gives your army a tangible function and an extra sense of presence based on its mechanical in-game capacity, but thats not the overall point. The core of the hobby is the building and painting and thinking about what models you want in your force. The game is then more than anything a thing to do that allows you to showcase, celebrate, and take extra enjoyment from your models. But if the hobbying is just a means towards playing and winning to you, if this is like a supremely inconvenient video game to you, then yes its kind of a terrible proposition. You have to love these objects as objects, you have to have that tendency to fetishise them, and you have to love putting in at least some effort and hopefully getting a result you're pretty happy with, that looks cooler to you because you remember when it was just a plastic sprue and can appreciate how far its come, and you did it all.

The fact that its a game makes all that more enjoyable, it makes a big difference from just painting whatever models for nothing in particular. But I think the painting and admiring of the models is definitely the main thing for most people, whether they realise it or not.

>>96382175
>ed is that the average 40k player , casual or 'hardcore' has all been brainwashed into thinking 2k is the minimum
bro i hate this so much.
when my buddy was asking me to play 10e, i was gunning for the old chestnut of 1k to 1.5k. balanced, reasonable army sizes.
dude kept pushing for 2k and i don't know really why.
it's a 5x3 table ~ you put that many models you're going to get a parking lot and guess what, still did because of the tourney layout at 1.5k.

Something people forget about 3-4 is while things are roughly priced the same points wise, wargear has a price (unlike 10e) and is generally generally more expensive in the previous editions..
you end up dumping a lot into characters, squad, and vehicle upgrades and it just pushes the model count down
take the CSM squad, in 10e it's a flat 90/170, that's comparable to the 3.5 dex, which is 14 + 2 for boltgun + cost of champ. 10e gets the mark, the special weapons and the champs war gear for free. every other edition you'd get a discount on troops, but you're still paying like 50 points to get them kitted out.
it's worse for heavy weapons, you pay a premium for weapons and you can't split fire. are you going to pay 35s for the lascanon when the ML and AC are 20 points and more flexible? either way you're paying a lot, you're likely not going to have too many dedicated anti vehicle weapons and the game as a result has lower lethality and lower model count because because you are trading a model for your weapons. sometimes just to squeeze more points you're taking the cheaper, worse option.

>>96386061
>>96383703
i don't agree with this sentiment.
Building and painting are important but i'd remind people of how many grey armies exist out there.
the game is a social one, it's about enjoying the company of your opponent,
games have a narrative component especially with the army if you build around it or play a narrative game.
some games are just fun to fucking play, and the game is the fun part, and for some people it's the fun of it.
reducing it down to just "why not play with empty bases"
BROTHER BATTLETECH (and other wargames too, warmaster for instance) PLAYERS WILL DO SO WITH CUTOUTS.
because they're game pieces, it's a game and thus there's going to be a lot of different things people value in it.

>>96360880 (OP)
It's good, the bigger battles the better and more immersive they are. More models required to play being something bad is a spook from times before 3d printers were a thing. Now that everyone has one it's a meme nonargument.

>>96386094
tbf everyone plays battletech with minis now. They sell a gajllion ugly little robots made out of very cheap plastic every year. The paper standees crowd has been aged out.

>>96386742
Retard, nobody has been aged out; you can still play with bottle caps and paper standees. People just like looking at cool models and painting their dudes. But nobody is fucking stopping you from playing with anything else.

>>96386804
I mean you can "play battletech" by fiddling with your penis all alone. It's not like anyone can stop you. There's nothing stopping you from playing any game with dry beans and pieces of lint. But the community whaled out hard on plastics when they finally delivered them, like any other.

By aged out I mean they're literally dying from heart disease because they're all 50+ year old grogs now lol

>>96386820
The newer generation is also using paper standees to test out mechs or vehicles they don't have models for. People just like having cool looking physical representations of their giant fighting robots, tanks, planes and exo suit troopers.

>>96386742
>everyone does X now, the people who did else wise are dead
i don't think so, i mean Battletech is a grog's game but that's aside the point, you had a distinct population where the models didn't matter it wasn't about building and painting, it was about the there aspects of the wargame.
To further illustrate the point, you point to the CGL plastics and not the IW/ral partha metals.
the IW was about building, you'd have to pin some of the heavier mechs, you had a scrap yard to build your own custom mechs/cover variants that don't have models.
The CGL are hard plastic and designed not to be converted.
building is not a core component with the people playing Battletech.
Our games evolved out of a mix of games that had no models. models are a nice inclusion and can elevate the game through artistic and personal expression. but it's not strictly required.
there is more to any table top game than just what you value.

>>96361560
>gatekeeping poorfags
I have a friend who works a bottom of the barrel low end job earning pennies, is 35 and still lives with his mentally unwell mother and can't even aford a shit 90s econobox, and yet still has like a 6K points Salamanders army (how original).
Your beloved Gwendolyn isn't gatekeeping poorfags, they're simply squeezing the very last cent of your corpo slut wallet while still allowing plebs to join.

>>96387830
>point to the CGL plastics and not the IW/ral partha metals
Because they're total ass. They weren't even very acceptable for the time. For every one that sorta looked alright you got a dozen stilt-legged freaks.
People 90% of the time play with minis representing their mechs and then maybe play them as same-mech variants. I haven't seen anyone play standees in years.

>>96378487
Not really. To compensate for increased model counts on a tiny board they've made the shooting phase increasingly lethal. You may avoid the disease at 1000 points but the treatment is still killing you. Its still hide and seek and over in 3 turns of action.

>>96370381
Still kind of have the same issues. You are still standing around circles that are usually to close to each other

>>96386742
Battletech minis are by the standards of the industry ugly but I'm consistently surprised by how okay they end up looking if you put some effort in, especially at tabletop distance. The fact that they're meant to be such basic shapes is very forgiving. Colour seperation goes a long way.

>>96379039
>>96386061
>>96386094
And I can do the same thing in Brikwars, minus the painting for the most part, with pretty much ALL of my Plastic Crack!

>>96386830
>The newer generation is also using paper standees to test out mechs or vehicles they don't have models for.
Yeah, the proper box sets still come with standees and cutouts!
Honestly think they could make bank selling packs of paperboard standees trading card style.

>>96389013
>The fact that they're meant to be such basic shapes is very forgiving.
And you can just 3d print your own, which is often more involving especially if you have WYSIWYG Autism.

>>96388487
>Because they're total ass.
depends on the era,but it's aside the point.
What matters is that people aren't engaging with the building with CGL's plastics. other games like AT-43 or heroclix had prebuild, prepainted minis and were fine.
While building and painting is important to the hobby it is not the sole important thing, the game has many other aspects to it that need to be considered, so much so i wouldn't call it the main thing.

Smaller armies are great. The main gripe I have is the jump from 1500-1750 to 2000. Larger bases sizes, smaller tables, shitty missions and terrain layouts. The game also breaks down at the 1k level. 40k is in a weird place but it's all about your attitude and your friend group that you play with. I had my first 10 games of 10th at 1500 points while learning the rules and we did a highlander style "take one of each unit" for our army construction. I did lose most of my games.

>>96369683
Why couldn't they? Some people are guaranteed to bitch and seethe whenever a new edition brings some change anyway, so they might as well push it in a different direction the next time it happens. Do it gradually over like 2 editions, and they could push for a very different and more old school look of the game.
When it comes to decreased army size I don't think it would even be such a huge issue for people who already have a large collection - I mean, sure they might not be able to field all of it at once anymore, but they'd have more potential to mix and match based on the oponent and scenario and to experiment with their list.
But that's a purely fantastical scenario of course.

>>96388418
The 6k Salamanders army might be the reason for all those other things you mentioned.

>>96360880 (OP)
are you sure that was a 2000pt army?

i remember playing 3rd or 4th back in like 2005 and armies were about the same size they are now, minus the titanic knight sized units and flyers

a space marines always been about 15 points from what i remember give or take a few. just digging through my old chaos space marines codex from back then, a land raider was 220, a vindicator was 125, a predator depending on loadout was like 120-140, obliterators were 75 a model, bikers were 33, and basic chaos marines were 15

looking at the current points a land raider is 240, a vindicator is 185, a predator is 140, obliterators are 80pts a model, and a legionarre is 18

with a little flex for optional war gear, its almost exactly the same, the points have barely changed in 25 years. the only thing that changed massively was rhinos, which used to be 35 points

otherwise i'd say your post is completely apocryphal, army sizes have not bloated much at all

>>96388418
>lives with his mother.
well there's the rub right there.
rent is like the main cost of living.
ideally you want to be paying 1/3rd of your takeaway income as rent and no more but if you want an apartment it's likely going to be prohibitively expensive.
if you're in an area that is expensive then well, you got rent, car payments, utilities, food, tax, savings, not a lot of money left for minis boxes priced at 3/4ths of grocery run.
i don't know his situation but it's likely that living with his family reduces the cost some. also you don't outline how long it took for him to get it.

>>96397961
>and basic chaos marines were 14 plus 2 for boltgun or CC and pistol, they do not have grenades, sergeant or special weapons. to make them like a base squad currently, you'd need make them 19 points a model and pay 13 for the champ.maybe more if you want to give them a veteran skill.
something to remember is heavy weapons are actually priced in previous additions. marks too. you see this more in havocs which is prohibitively expensive points wise for what they did.
rhinos were 50 points in 3.5, i think you're using the rulebook right?

wargear is however the real killer, i start with an 60 point lord, and you can go batshit here.
trying to get the chaos lord from this edition i think you'd need 115 points to get there. (115+ 25 for PF, +15 plas pistol +15 demonic aura 5++), much more expensive over all.
i think you'd find the same being true for chosen and terminators and the like.
you have POINT SINKS in these characters that extends past wargear though it's good to remember just the loss of unit based wargear and upgrade, with models remaining at roughly the same price point will trend the armies up marginally larger and FAR more lethal as armies don't have to skimp.
you can take 4 lascannons on that havoc squad, hell take 2 and 2 chain guns, who cares it's not like they have to shoot at the same target.
in addition, yeah fuck the centrepiece model.

>>96400501
>lives with his mother
I'm from the third world. Some how I ended in the the richest 20% of my country. I'm still earning less than the minimum wage of Florida.
If I was just mostly competing for jobs and investors within my country it would be hard but at least there would be some level of predictability. But that is not the case since at any point I'm competing with some illegal Venezuelan or some Indian that is willing to work illegally. Or some Chinese shows up dumping and crushing the local markets with CCP money
In other words smart guy everything helps. I hope that at least he pay some of the bills at home.

>>96360880 (OP)
Ultra negative, to the point where I stopped playing in 5th edition

>>96360880 (OP)
Damn that old land raider is CHUNKY

>>96360880 (OP)
Idk, I don't play warhammer, but I am sure that that paint job on the newer army is a lot sloppier.

>>96360880 (OP)
A question for the older players, was the land raider a big deal back then? The smaller army size makes it look like a boss unit.

>>96403427
It was the largest non-forgeworld tank afaik you could get, so Idk if in competitive meta it was any good, but it was a pretty cool model to have for the kids on the playground.

>>96403427
During 4th at an event I run two land raider crusaders at 1250 points. My list was basically the LRC two marine squads and some characters. No one carries anti tank to counter a land raider at those points, let alone two.

>>96403427
More like a miniboss unit, but it did (and still does IMO) have some serious cool factor. The weaponry wasn't really that impressive but being a very tough transport that could carry Terminators and - most crucially of all - allow the embarked unit to assault straight out of the front ramp made it potentially extremely dangerous. AV14 is hard to crack but it needed some other armoured threats to hopefully get the enemy to split their anti-tank fire, a lonely Land Raider was most often a blown up Land Raider.

>>96403509
I can smell the sweat from here

>>96360880 (OP)
positive for james, negative for everybody else

>>96403884
In my defence I did not expect to do so so good.
Someone was going to roll the double six or I was going to get stuck on terrain.

>>96379039
>>96386061
>>96386094
And I can do the same thing in Brikwars, minus the painting for the most part, with pretty much ALL of my Plastic Crack!

>>96386830
>The newer generation is also using paper standees to test out mechs or vehicles they don't have models for.
Yeah, the proper box sets still come with standees and cutouts!
Honestly think they could make bank selling packs of paperboard standees trading card style.

>>96389013
>The fact that they're meant to be such basic shapes is very forgiving.
And you can just 3d print your own, which is often more involving especially if you have WYSIWYG Autism.

>>96403277
i think you might completely misunderstand my post sir.
I'm a Jew, i have no problems with people living with family to reduce the cost of living, that's responsible and it reduces the overall cost of rentals in your area. generally it's good for everyone but landlords.
I'm pointing out that when you're living at home your cost of living is generally going to be much lower than renting, meaning with lower income you could even end up with higher disposable income and people with more take away but a much higher cost of living or more obligations.
it's always important to live within your means but sometimes life simply doesn't allow, i'm happy the salamander player can play but i don't think he's a good indication to the game having a healthy price point.

>>96403427
depends on the edition and the faction.
during 4 it was far more manageable than 5, i ran one in 1500 at 5 and it rarely died. usually when it did it was an russ vanquisher, an ordinance weapon or melta.
in 4e you could glance an enemy to death, 6 and then 6 so even str 8 weapons were a threat, necron gauss could just spam fire into your LR and kill it like it was a rhino.
best you could do in 5 e on a glance i think was immobilize it (i think you could also get a 7 destroying it, but that would need to be an ap 1 weapon which there were few that weren't going to regularly glance, most of which were ordinance weapons which were just harder to field back in the day.

I played 4th edition and armies weren't that small