Thread 96378573

D&D failed martial classes....

>>96378573 (OP)
SOMEDAY LOVE WILL FIND YOU
BREAK THOSE CHAINS THAT BIND YOU
ONE NIGHT WILL REMIND YOU
HOW WE TOUCHED AND WENT OUR SEPARATE WAYS

>>96378573 (OP)
cutscene animators have done untold damage to the videogame industry

>>96378573 (OP)
>Book of Weeaboo Fightan Magic

>>96378573 (OP)
Play Fantasy Craft instead.

>>96378573 (OP)
These threads have become a daily ritual on /tg/ at this point.

>>96378573 (OP)
There is no reason you can't imagine that every AC save you make looks like the parrying or dodging shown in this clip. Disarm and unarmed combat mechanics exist in D&D as well. The only thing failing martial classes is your imagination.

>>96378573 (OP)
>video game file
>shit thread
Every time

>>96379134
shuddup retard

>>96378573 (OP)
I love how they always wait for the knight to parry their friends' attacks before they do anything. Very realistic, just like THAT scene from The Last Jedi.

>>96379153
>hated enemies of 3 alliances as wary of each other as they are of the assassin that tried to kill them all

>>96379200
And here comes the shitty fight scene defense force. Also they sure are wary of each other when the elf wasted so much time trying to save the other fag from falling from the roof.

>>96378573 (OP)
Based knight defending his homeland against immigrants

>>96378603
Videogame industry has done untold damage to animation industry. This is just revenge.

>>96378573 (OP)
Battlemaster should've been baseline for the 5e fighter.

>>96378603
How much autism do you need to acquire this opinion?

>>96378759
>There's absolutely no reason why an rpg should have fun mechanics. You can just use your imagination to pretend there are fun mechanics.

>>96378573 (OP)
This webm has never once been attached to a post worth having.

>>96378573 (OP)
No, the authors know the audience of this class very well, they know well that making builds, positioning and choosing targets already sends the brains of dnd fighter players into overdrive mode, so these crayon eaters get exactly what they can hold.

>>96379153
Oh no, the staged fight turned out to be staged. Well, smartass, now I'll make encounter where the enemies act intelligently, and instead of attacking head-on, they camp corners now. Are you having fun, son?

>>96380180
Yes.

>>96380180
>staged fight
>on a fucking CG trailer for a video game
This garbage is from ESO, right? Didn't know ESO players were that fucking sensitive.

>>96379153
Crayon muncher take

>>96380386
ESO fans are basically the Elder Scrolls equivalent of Smeggies.

>>96378573 (OP)
Honestly? If a pure martial character and a pure caster character of equal level fight in D&D whoever has the highest inactive is going to win the fight in the first round the vast majority of the time.

>>96378573 (OP)
Why so redditors always soiface over this?

>>96380448
They soiface at every possible opportunity. You need to narrow the instances down to the ones where they're the only positive reaction

>>96379153
Watch closer than that. The knight staggers them so they come at him one by one. He controls the flow of the fight. He ensures he's fighting a sequence of three one-on-ones instead of a three-on-one by keeping them off their balance.
"Wow but what if they weren't" but they were.
The only complaint is that people shouldn't be disoriented for that long, but that's a pathetic level of complaint. Hoist thine disbelief an inch from the ground. This is a world where people literally have stamina bars they have to wait to fill up.

>>96378573 (OP)
It's not that "D&D failed martial classes", it's more that magic is appropriate for war in D&D, given its availability and effectiveness, and non-magical combat is rendered obsolete by comparison. The magic classes are martial classes, because magic is appropriate for war in D&D.
The only reason why non-magical classes are in print is because they're sacred cows holdovers from previous editions (which they didn't really sensibly fit into either); in a living world filled with easily accessible magic, non-magical people would be the minority (if they even existed at all), and anyone even remotely considering leaving the safety of their city walls wouldn't do so without some kind of safety measure against hostile magic.

Now, I can practically hear the keys clicking already, with some of you retards already priming your response of "wElL nOt EvErYoNe In OuR wOrLd Is A dOcToR !!" to which I say: shove your shitty analogy up your downsey ass(es). The barrier to entry for magic in D&D is literally nowhere near as difficult or expensive as becoming a doctor.
You want to play as a normal dude? Pick a game where magic isn't so powerful, available, and reliable.

>>96380526
My dude at the very beginning the 3 could've all swarmed on the knight and he would go down and it is retarded that everyone gets disoriented for long enough for him to only have one-on-ones. It's a garbage fight choreography exactly like the throne room scene of that shitty Star War movie and it's insane to see people praising it that fucking hard.

>>96378573 (OP)
To be fair, the reason they failed martial classes is that they won't enforce casters needing their spell components, requiring them to set up their spell at the beginning of the day so they're locked in, and willing to keep them weak and dependent on a martial to defend them against attackers. Hell, just giving martial more of a chance to dodge spells at later levels due to better reflexes and all would also help. However, often it's just give them magic shit and make everyone a caster

>>96380586
>My dude at the very beginning the 3 could've all swarmed on the knight
Though they charged all at once, they had different stride lengths, so they didn't reach him all at once. People aren't psychic machines that can effortlessly synchronize.

>>96380619
Yeah, sure, whatever. Why synchronize your attacks against one enemy when you can all cosplay as the Three Stooges and give him the easiest fight of his life?

>>96380632
Cause people aren't fucking psychic bro they can't predict everything a million years in advance. They tried their best and if your suspension of disbelief falls at this level of choreography you can literally never be satisfied.

>>96378573 (OP)
You don't play a martial to be meta, you play them because you want to be the underdog overcoming the odds. Like if an Isekai character had no cheat powers.

>>96380632
I mean they still win so your point is moot.

>>96380655
>>96380619
The initial stride isn't the issue. Really the first 20 seconds are fine, there's obvious fuck ups and mistakes but real people don't typically just "swarm" someone because it means at least one of you is gonna die.

The main problems start at the 25 second mark where the combat just randomly breaks up into individualized fights while the Knight is literally SURROUNDED, and the assassin and elf just stand there dumbly so he can win a quick 1v1, twice in a row.

>>96378573 (OP)
The one time they didn't fail martial classes it caused a sperg out so big it nearly broke the internets that still has paroxysms if you mention that time.

>>96381031
>where the combat just randomly breaks up into individualized fights
It's not really "random", the knight put effort into breaking the three of them up.

>>96380160
>I made a retarded class, now only retards play it
Being an athletic badass is my power fantasy - I would much rather be Link or MGR Raiden than whatever dumb wizard bullshit because I don’t have lingering trauma from getting shoved in lockers in high school - but I don’t play D&D fighters because they suck.

>>96378573 (OP)
No anon, you did.

>>96380613
3e did a major number on martial performance due to a large number of changes that seemed to "improve" the game but actually hamstrung their performance.

>Hp inflation from giving everyone and everything Con bonuses to hp.
>Iterative Attacks having diminishing attack bonuses which causes martial damage output to grow slower with every level than inflated enemy hp values
>Shifting to Ref/Fort/Will saves that only have two growth rates: good and bad. This resulted in martial acing Fort saves but failing Ref and Will saves compared to earlier editions where all saves grew at a roughly equal rate.
>Factoring wealth by level into the game math forcing certain expenditures to maintain parity with enemies and limiting the viability of secondary weapons (i.e. thrown and ranged weapons if melee).
>Feats not scaling and more or less forcing martials to hyper specialize further preventing use of secondary weapons.

Later editions further doubled down into to this causing even more issues.

>>96378573 (OP)
Not a problem in 4e (the best edition)

Why do you keep posting this thread over and over again?

>>96380613
>they won't enforce casters needing their spell components
that would just make the casters hog even more spotlight

>>96381070
People are still mad fighters were good. STILL

>>96378573 (OP)
in what way does this animation for ESO prove DnD failed martials? In DnD a caster can just cast flight on themselves and hover out of range of this dipshit's sword, then drop 10d6+30 damage cantrips on his head until he dies.
This animation just proves Elder Scrolls doesn't understand how powerful a wizard can really be and why the entire game, and setting, is pure dogshit

>>96381227
Wotc be like "Retards are customers too".

>>96381399
In Elder Scrolls wizards can still do that. It's just fighters can just kill them anyway because stupid damage levels

>>96381463
>In Elder Scrolls wizards can still do that.
lolnope, the entire planet of Elder Scrolls forgot how to cast levitate after the Nerevarine killed Dagoth Ur.

>>96381479
Plenty of enemy wizards still fly, wtf are you talking about?

>>96381479
That would matter if I wasn't talking about Morrowind dumbass. Flying mage still get punked like idiots

>>96381490
when and where retard? Apparently you never played Oblivion or Skyrim
>>96381500
How? How is knight with sword going to kill the flying mage who can wipe out an entire army with a single cantrip?

>>96381514
>when and where retard?
Easiest answer off the top of my head, all the dragon priests fly

>>96381525
>dragon priests
>wizards
lol

>>96381514
In morrowind? Because upping athletics lets you jump up and hit him for a gorillion damage. It's pretty simple to get values that let you hop around like you're golden age superman

>>96381534
>cast magic
>fly
>teleport even
Shut the fuck up you baiting retard.

>>96381536
>In morrowind? Because upping athletics lets you jump up and hit him for a gorillion damage.
You gravely overestimate how high you jump with 100 acrobatics* (I won't hold the fact you got the skill name wrong against you, but I will laugh at you because of it).
>It's pretty simple to get values that let you hop around like you're golden age superman
Guess how you do so? By using magic.

>>96381545
They don't cast magic, they speak the Thu'um you stupid secondary retard. Why am I having to correct an Elder Scrolls fag on their own lore?

>>96381548
Nah, you can do an exploit pretty easily to get the value to wrap around without magic. Check out alchemy for the big one, but you can also exploit how the game does conditions to effectively give yourself dummy stats. It's way better to be martial in that game because of it, since spells are much more limited by having explicit effects

>>96381557
>magic dragon language is not magic
Ok buddy, whatever makes you feel better

>>96381458
>be satisfied with low engagement time in exchange for the faster combat resolution
No, I can't! Everybody else is still complicated, and it's 5e so all the swords are made out of foam!

>>96381621
Then that means the class is not for you, don't take away from the people with special needs their toy, you heartless bastard. Play monk or something. Or better yet, don't play dnd.

>>96378573 (OP)
>>96378603
The industrial revolution and its consequences man hook hand car door

>>96381566
>Nah, you can do an exploit pretty easily to get the value to wrap around without magic. Check out alchemy for the big one,
And here we go, saying alchemy isn't magic, lmfao
>>96381578
It isn't. It's the admin codes to reality. Which you would know if you ever even played Skyrim

>>96381691
>Admin codes to reality
>not magic
nigga

>>96381514
>How? How is knight with sword going to kill the flying mage who can wipe out an entire army with a single cantrip?
In Elder Scrolls? Pankratosword.

Also basic ass knight in Elder Scrolls is Breton with 50% magic resist and in all lore their knight orders further enchant their armor for more resistance. Typical knight lance can plow through your doomsday spells, wreck everything you have on the ground and then kill you by throwing spears.

Most valued uses of military magic in Elder Scrolls is force multiplicative ones or those that allow your forces to attack from unexpected direction - like that story about a legion marching on the bottom of a lake.

>>96378573 (OP)
D&D did GREAT by martial classes.

*WOTC* failed martial classes. If you play TSR editions, they still shine because TSR didn't spend all their time gargling wizard orbs.

>>96381827
>Pankratosword
ah WEEBSHIT.

>>96381836
Worse - Indian shit. Sword Singer feats were pretty explicitly cribbed from Hindu myths.

>>96381827
>the only way a fighter can compete with a caster is to become a monk instead and do chi magic back
actual lmao. real fighters on suicide watch.

>>96381849
What do you mean by "real fighters"? Study some history, you American mongrel, belief in the supernatural has always been an integral part of all fighting schools, whether East or West, there has always been belief in magical equipment, or spells, or blessings from the gods, etc. So what are you talking about, retard?

>>96380021
>fun mechanics
Such as? Do you want all martial classes to roll dice every time they are attacked to see if they dodge, parry, or block it?

>>96381691
There's other ways to do the exploit, alchemy is just the easy way.

>>96382140
Add counter attacks and the ability to cancel the turn if the enemy rolled a 1. Add the ability to increase the number that is considered a critical failure. Add the ability to attack different parts of the body (now the disarm attack cuts off the hand). Provide the ability to "juggle enemies". Provide the ability to reduce the AC of enemies through the fighter's skill, or even better, provide combo moves that do this. Provide the ability to ram enemies. Provide the ability to slam enemy as if it a WWE style match. Rework the initiative system where the one with the highest initiative makes the move first, but declares the intention last, knowing what everyone else will do and has the ability to prevent the enemy from carrying out his intention.

>>96380021
>Battlemaster should've been baseline for the 5e fighter.
*cough* 5E Playtest *cough*
Never forget what they took from you.

>>96381691
>And here we go, saying alchemy isn't magic, lmfao
The sun in Elder Scrolls is literally a giant hole to the dimension that is the origin of all magic. If you're going to define local chemistry as "magic" then so is all the local food anyway, so the Fighter ate his carrots which were empowered with magic and thus can beat up wizards because he's magic, everything is magic, now let melee builds have fun, stupid brainpoisoned 3e faggot.

>>96382686
>If you're going to define local chemistry as "magic"
It is part of the magic branch of skills, since the start of the series. It is magic, anon. Don't be retarded and try to play semantics.

>>96382695
>since the start of the series
So now we're lying, too? Cool. Filtered.

>>96381872
believing in the supernatural doesn't mean using magic you absolute nigger-brained retard
or are you going to seriously claim that because Japanese samurai believed their swords had spirits living inside of them that it made them summon spirits into battle and slay their enemies with it?

>>96378573 (OP)
Pick a game where magic isn't so powerful, available, and reliable.

>>96382714
Damn, you gave up that fast? I'll accept your concession then.

>>96382686
Technically eating carrots doesn't count. Since magic in Elder Scrolls is explicitly using magicka to do shit.
But yeah, alchemy doesn't count, it's a separate branch of skills even if Mage's Guild hogged it up.

In Elder Scrolls we have:
Magic aka Clever Craft - uses magicka
Shadow Magic - uses potentia
Alchemy - uses combinations of ingredients
Enchanting - uses souls
Thuum - uses reality cheat codes
Sword Singing - just fucking cuts shit with your own soul

And I'm pretty sure there are more skill branches with abilities that we would consider supernatural.
Shit like jumping very high, being strong enough to throw horses or hard enough to shrug off multiple arrows sticking in your isn't even considered something special. Just something people can do if they are good enough at basics.

>>96382716
King Arthur literally had an arsenal of magical weapons. So did a bunch of other heroes. Or like Samson had magic built into their bodies. So cry me a river, idiot, and cope with the fact that magic/superpowers have always been part of the fighter archetype. At least in the medieval era, if you want fighters without magic then you have to move from the medieval to the Renaissance and beyond.

Always has, always will

>>96382743
Morrowind specifically classifies Alchemy as a magic-type skill thoughbeit

>>96382750
>mythical heroes had mythical weapons
That's not what you said, you said real fighters were using supernatural forces. Can you point to a single instance of real fighters using magic weapons or summoning spirits to aid them?

>>96382782
Can you point to a single instance of real wizards casting a single magic spell?

>>96382772
There are only three parts to classification - Combat, Stealth and Magic from the game point of view. Lore wise Alchemy is a separate discipline to Magic.

>>96378573 (OP)
>complains about martial classes
>posts a half-elf spellsword adept
???

>>96382782
>Viking smiths incorporated animal and human bones into their iron-making process, believing this imbued their weapons with spiritual power, which was a form of "blood magic". Unknowingly, the carbon in the bones helped create a stronger, springier form of steel by adding carbon to the iron, a process called bone steel. This technique, combined with the ritualistic use of blood and animal parts, resulted in superior blades.
Please don't kill yourself.

RETVRN TO TRADITION(al games)

0D&D Fighters have
>Highest HP
>Exclusive access to Magical Swords (the most common and powerful weapons)
>Exclusive access to To-Hit and Damage Bonus based on Strength with the already best To-Hit Progression
>Exclusive access to Dexterity Bonus to AC
>Immunity to high HD Monster Multiple Attacks
>Exclusive Ability to Multi-Attack 1HD Monsters up to the Fighter's Level

BXCMI
>Highest HP
>Unrestricted Equipment
>Best To-Hit

AD&D1
>Exclusive access to 18/% Strength Scores

>>96381479
Yeah, the spell we are too lazy to find a way to work with levitate magic so we took it out was casted on the world.

>>96382140
3e D&D had what on paper would have been a good idea: letting you use special moves like sunder, disarm, grapple, etc without needing a special class feature or other sort of ability to use them.

But mechanically all of these things are massively suboptimal compared to just doing a basic swing unless you've invested like 3 feats into one specific move, which is a stupid build idea.

>>96381844
Hindu myth is like the only remotely cool part of their culture, so I'll give it a pass.

>>96378573 (OP)
>>96382140
>>96382266
Every bludgeoning/piercing/slashing attack should have a chance to mangle/dismember/impale, and edged weapons should inflict bleeding.

>>96379208
If you watch the collective cutscenes, yes, they are always wary of each other: in fact in the initial one, the kick the shit out of each other before the forces of Molag Bal show up and they fight them. The Breton actually dies in that fight, the Altmer gets knocked out and the Nord abscones with her so that a Pact sorc can turn her into a magic lightning cannon.

>>96382743
>potentia
That's not canon.

I read that fic too, but that was made up for the fanfiction

>>96382266
i think ive read the initiative part, its in a game called street fighter ttrpg if i remember it correctly.

>>96381092
No, it's completely random. They don't even get broken up on screen, they just split into three directions around the knight and then stand still. In a real fight, that's when you'd lose.

>>96384633
From monsters/NPCs, too?

>>96387556
Works perfectly fine in GURPS. If you expect to get hit you wear armor or lose your limb privileges.

>96380566
>Now, I can practically hear the keys clicking already, with some of you retards already priming your response of "wElL nOt EvErYoNe In OuR wOrLd Is A dOcToR !!" to which I say: shove your shitty analogy up your downsey ass(es). The barrier to entry for magic in D&D is literally nowhere near as difficult or expensive as becoming a doctor.
Yeah, you just need to be born with magical powers, which vast majority of the population isn't, or have at least above average intelligence (which, naturally, excludes half of the populace) and the means and access to someone willing to teach you magic, or find a supernatural entity who's for some reason interested enough in some rando to give them magic powers.

>>96380566
It's not that "D&D failed martial classes", it's more that the battle axe is appropriate for war in D&D, given its availability and effectiveness, and non-axe combat is rendered obsolete by comparison. The axe-wielding classes are martial classes, because axes are appropriate for war in D&D.
>The only reason why axeless classes are in print is because they're sacred cows holdovers from previous editions (which they didn't really sensibly fit into either); in a living world filled with easily accessible axes, axeless people would be the minority (if they even existed at all), and anyone even remotely considering leaving the safety of their city walls wouldn't do so without some kind of safety measure against hostile axe wielders.
>Now, I can practically hear the keys clicking already, with some of you retards already priming your response of "wElL nOt EvErYoNe In OuR wOrLd Is A dOcToR !!" to which I say: shove your shitty analogy up your downsey ass(es). The barrier to entry for aaxemanship in D&D is literally nowhere near as difficult or expensive as becoming a doctor.
>You want to play as a normal dude? Pick a game where the axe isn't so powerful, available, and reliable.

>>96387744
There's no Int requirement to be a wizard.

>B-buh, that's just 5e, which is for babies-

OD&D, baby.

>>96380566
It's not that "D&D failed martial classes", it's more that the battle axe is appropriate for war in D&D, given its availability and effectiveness, and non-axe combat is rendered obsolete by comparison. The axe-wielding classes are martial classes, because axes are appropriate for war in D&D.
The only reason why axeless classes are in print is because they're sacred cows holdovers from previous editions (which they didn't really sensibly fit into either); in a living world filled with easily accessible axes, axeless people would be the minority (if they even existed at all), and anyone even remotely considering leaving the safety of their city walls wouldn't do so without some kind of safety measure against hostile axe wielders.
Now, I can practically hear the keys clicking already, with some of you retards already priming your response of "wElL nOt EvErYoNe In OuR wOrLd Is A dOcToR !!" to which I say: shove your shitty analogy up your downsey ass(es). The barrier to entry for axemanship in D&D is literally nowhere near as difficult or expensive as becoming a doctor.
You want to play as a normal dude? Pick a game where the axe isn't so powerful, available, and reliable.

>>96380399
Tf is a smeggie? I wanna know what I'm being slandered for.

>>96382140
Literally just make maneuvers baseline. Casters get 9 different resources to manage by default, at least give fighters one.

>>96378573 (OP)
That was pretty dope. Are you sure they shouldn’t put a fat black woman or some gay sex in it?

>>96387967
That was done in some later trailers. They suck.

>>96382140
>Do you want all martial classes to roll dice every time they are attacked to see if they dodge, parry, or block it?
Unironically yes. AC is dogshit as a mechanic, and is part of why D&D combat takes forever. It's easy to pump AC into levels where the options the GM has are throw something that can hit the paladin/fighter/Wizard with Shield + Mage armor but will basically always hit anyone else, or ensure the rest of the party doesn't get mauled by something with +15 to hit while the paladin/fighter/wizard with Shield basically never get hit.

Having contested rolls for attacks also makes for more dynamic combat, especially if each defense type has its own benefits on success (and possibly even critical success). Furthermore, it lets armor be more varied, with different armor sets being more than "this is an objective upgrade that is locked behind an ability score (but not really)" and instead having different bonuses to different defense types.

>>96378759
>HP is an abstract score for your ability to dodge/block things that would inhibit or kill you.
>AC is… uh, the same thing, but I guess it’s more of a measure of passive circumstances requiring no effort on your part.
>no, a lower HP doesn’t actually translate to being exhausted or winded.
>that would be your endurance
>which isn’t affected by anything outside of travel or magic if we’re going strictly by the rules.

>look the system is fine and it makes sense just stop thinking too hard about it

D&D has numerous issues but the very foundation of its system is the main problem and no changes to classes or levels will fix that. Having two stats to represent almost getting hurt is a waste of time and math and the fact that neither affects your abilities in combat creates a level of goofy fight logic that removes all tension from combat.

>>96387826
Still doesn't address the issue of of needing resources, genetics, or connections. Even learning a fucking cantrip is a drag because the common laborer makes 2sp a day and cantrip scroll costs 25gp. That's a third of a year in a commoner's wages and commoner will likely spend 80% of that on necessities. It will take over a year and a half just to save up enough on a single cantrip scroll and that's not accounting for any possible emergency expenses.

>>96378573 (OP)
Play a different game then.

>>96380566
A level 1 wizard/magic-user is supposed to have studied magic for 8 years by the start of the campaign.

>>96395213
This.

>>96388652
Glad I don't have to watch them.

>>96382266
>juggling enemies
Probably the stupidest recommendation I've seen in a thread like this yet. This isn't some tranime hack and slash slop or a fucking fighting game. Go play those if you want to "juggle enemies".

>>96395213
>Hah, just play a different game instead of pointing out an objective flaw in the game design so it can be fixed

Top tier stupid.

>>96388844
Except HP is meat points as well...How else do you explain homing spells, retard?

>>96380566
>Now, I can practically hear the keys clicking already, with some of you retards already priming your response of "wElL nOt EvErYoNe In OuR wOrLd Is A dOcToR !!" to which I say: shove your shitty analogy up your downsey ass(es). The barrier to entry for magic in D&D is literally nowhere near as difficult or expensive as becoming a doctor.
Every single caster requires 5 to 10 years of constant studying and tutelage under a master in order to actually be able to cast spells. The only ones that don't are sorcerers, who have fantastical bloodlines, or warlocks, who literally make deals with satan.

The only downsey retard in here is you.

I fuckin love normalfag unarmed builds so much bros.

>>96413192
This is why I have banned multi-classing at every single table I have ever DM'd. It makes zero sense, and only appeals to fence-sitters, or munchkins.

>>96380566
> in a living world filled with easily accessible magic, non-magical people would be the minority
Correct, which is why magic is not easily accessible in D&D, and Eberron is an abortion of a setting.

>>96378573 (OP)
>look at discussion with people trying to "fix" 5e martials
>literally 100% of the time it is reinventing tome of battle or 4e

>>96414715
time really feels like a circle sometimes
>martials are weak and boring, all they do is make ordinary attacks all the time and spellcasters always outshine them both in and out of combat due to the versatility of magic
>let's give martial classes weaboo fightan magic so they scale better against caster classes
>but all you've done is turned martials into casters! They have the same mechanics and everything!
>no, see, it doesn't count as magic because you're using a sword instead of a staff
>bitch you're casting once a day spells and calling them 'sword techniques'
>nuh uh
>yes huh
this argument has happened on the internet more than once an edition, every edition since 3.5

>>96414743
>>bitch you're casting once a day spells and calling them 'sword techniques'
I mean in all fairness that isn't how tome of battle works

>>96381031
>the assassin and elf just stand there dumbly
Assassins and elves are cowards, so it checks out

>>96414743
Because dnd made by autists who can only imagine "you can use X skill Y times per day". Adding something like a skill test with penalties for failure is beyond their imagination.

>>96414743
The real argument to explore that nobody is willing to have is instead of empowering martials to depower casters and create a robust enough central system of grounded actions available to anyone that the caster can still have fun even if they only get to cast a real spell like once a session.

>>96378573 (OP)
D&D did fail martials because martials are never given the same amount of material for their own stuff like magic does.

Whole books are filled with redundant and one off spells and you can fill 10+ pages with that shit while unique rules for unarmed fighting, grappling, manuevers are given passing mentions and never expanded upon.

The last time they were given anything it caused radioactive prolapses and accused of being magic by another name

>>96387320
First off, they weren't really a team. They were working together at the moment to take the knight down. Second, the knight took advantage of their lack of teamwork and use it to keep them from jumping him and taking each one on one.

>>96415001
Yo I would totally play that. I always liked the suggestion of adding failure chances for spells to justify magic being more rare beyond “money”, I would totally do the same thing but let martials attempt shit too. That sounds fun asf.

>>96414743
>>martials are weak and boring, all they do is make ordinary attacks all the time and spellcasters always outshine them both in and out of combat due to the versatility of magic

Except that's wrong.

>>96414715
>literally 100% of the time it is reinventing tome of battle or 4e
Except that's also wrong.

>>96381070
>Oh cool, a new ability to push an enemy 1 square in any direction!

Amazing.

>>96415394
Are you talking about Tome of Battle?

Martials would be buffed into the stratosphere if you simply gave them the ability to deal crippling blows without feats, and rewarded armor usage beyond just a flat AC bonus. There's a reason people wore armor.

>>96416810
No it's not.
>>96416868
No it's not.
>>96416879
>He doesn't know

>>96415466
>First off, they weren't really a team.
Don't care, they're not retarded, they're trained combatants and nobody is ever going to stand around dumbly while their opponent puts their back to them.
In all it's just a very poorly directed scene past the halfway mark. All that effort for nothing.

>>96416810
You're utterly delusional if you think Fighters are doing anything but spending all their attacks per turn on damage.

>>96415221
I half agree. The Caster/Martial disparity is truly at the top end. I would personally not make Casters cast less magic but weaker overall.
So as an example Wizards stop at 5th or 6th level spells rather than the full on creating demiplane tier bullshit.
If the linear/quadratic argument is true then just cap class growth at the intersection.

>>96379153
I guarantee you cannot name a single fight scene, live action or animated that has 3 people attacking a single target together without a single moment where the coreography is forced to make one or two of them stay back.

>>96414743
>once a day
...What? Swordsages get their maneuvers back by meditating for five minutes, Warblades get their maneuvers back by attacking and Crusaders get their maneuvers back by using all of their maneuvers.

>>96382140
I play those kind of games and they are fun

>>96418276
>nuh uh it's not once a day spells, it's once per meditation or X number of regular attack spells!
lol, time is a circle

>>96414715
100% of the time it fails too.

>>96415394
A big part of the problem is that base abilities are kinda lame and also not given in enough amount to actually matter. World record lift puts strongest humans somewhere between Strength 25 and 28. Good luck getting 25 Strength on a human without magic. Except with Strength based attacks giving those scores without a lot of cost would result in armor being useless.

Shit if fucked. And we didn't even get to the fact that most of damage comes from Feats instead of pure Strength as in many other systems.

>>96415221
Ultimately whether you empower martials or nerf casters, you have to make the classes meet in the middle somehow. My main issue with the disparity between them is not that casters are able to trivialize combat (which is usually thanks to CC spells like Hold Person/Monster or casting Fly to just stay out of the enemy's reach rather than brute force damage spells). The reason they're so powerful isn't because of their damage output but because of their versatility allowing for way more creative actions in combat.
The bigger issue, in my opinion, is that casters can trivialize both combat AND noncombat encounters. Need to persuade someone to help you? Just cast a low level spell that gives you a +20 to Diplomacy rolls. Or if you need to steal something, cast Greater Invisibility and then unlock everything in your way with Knock. Casters get to simply skip the need for noncombat skills, but they ALSO get plenty of skill points as well, as further salt in the wound.
What's the counter to these spells? More spells, you need True Sight to see through Invisibility and Ghost Touch to kill an intangible monster. How do you analyze a magical device? Casters get the skill for that, but martials don't. Fighters give up the right to noncombat usefulness because they're supposed to be purely focused on fighting, it's in the name. But casters don't sacrifice skill points in exchange for the power of their magic, either. Fighters have to pay feat taxes just to get to the useful feats for them, while casters get to choose from all kinds of metamagic feats that can completely break the game in half. Martials need magic gear just to not become inevitably useless at higher level gameplay, but magic gear just gives them limited, personalized access to the same magic that casters use without limits.