Thread 96382804

Should adventurers ever be allowed to reach such an high level that they can threaten the gods themselves?

>>96382804 (OP)
Vecna, we're coming for that ass.

>>96382804 (OP)
Depends on the game. But sure, it fits some games just fine.

>>96382804 (OP)
If the DM and the players have the staying power to last for a campaign that reaches those power levels, sure, why not?
Heck even old D&D had rules for becoming Immortals.

>>96382804 (OP)
Well yes, it was the end game objective of the original D&D game afterall. It's also why in Basic and AD&D the gods, godlings, saints and Dukes of Hell/the Abyss were given stats (Monster Manual, Dieties and Demigods, etc), so the players could eventually have a go at taking them on and by doing so replace them.

Some settings even had gods that were stated as starting off as mortals (Zagyn, Iuz, St Cuthbert), becomeing gods through great acts or by defeating the previous place holder.

>>96383157
Yeah basic D&D. Once you reach lv9 you stop being a homeless fucking vagabond and an actual, hopefully, landed lord. Have followers, title, a land, bunch of peasants, and passive income & XP.
You do crazy ass shit compared to now. For example, time traveling to help your descendants, so that your dynasty continues for another 100 years only to impress the immortals for your apotheosis.

>>96385463
What do they do in 5E? Quit adventuring and set up their own coffee shop and bakery?

>>96382804 (OP)
Sure, why not?

>>96382873
"Vecna, I lika ya, and I want ya. Now we can do this the easy way or the hard way. The choice is yours."

>>96382804 (OP)
Yeah, that was kind of the point of high level adventures. The problem with high level adventures in a lot of current game systems is they keep the player stuck in OP Murder Hobo and don't really give you a chance to become conquerors and kings let alone gods. Even though in most lore in a setting they are adventurers that do become kings and gods due to their deeds. Now, not every player has to become a god, king, etc. You might have one that becomes a merchant and focuses on his business over the idea of ruling a kingdom or being immortal. Those who become a champion to a god or king over being one themselves. However you should have more than the go raid a dungeon, and take out a BBEG at one point. Though to be honest, most of the woke tourist want to live a "power fantasy" of taking on the man, but they don't want to both with hassle of running a place. Hints why "everything" just works out when they take over. Handwaving huge chunks of gameplay or just ending it there to go right back to level one for a new game cause they don't know how to balance a personal checkbook let alone run a region or kingdom. (And it shows since these fuckers are burning any company they taken control of.)

>>96382804 (OP)
I'm adding "should" to the filter list.

>>96382804 (OP)
Uuhh sure if they want to

>>96382804 (OP)
Yes

>>96385463
In based 3.5 you did that at level 6.

>>96382804 (OP)
Building off >>96382894, what games are best for this?
>44RPG

>>96385968
My character became an orcs rights activist and advocate for more goblin representation.

>>96382804 (OP)
If that's the game your GM wants to run? Sure; sounds like it could be fun.

>>96390291
>In based 3.5 you did that at level 6.
No you don't. Leadership at most on average gives 6 x lv1 followers at level 6, and becomes less if you're a class with starting companions (i.e Familiar).
FYI both 3.0 and 3.5 core books don't have anything on being a lord, and any official ruling is on 3.0's Stronghold Builder Guide which restricts you owning land at level 9 via feat. For some reason it was never reprinted/updated for 3.5 (no reason to I guess?), and the closest thing you have of owning anything in 3.5 is via business rules on DMG2.

>>96392895
Minimum wage for a mercenary warrior in 3.5e is 3sp, so 6sp for an adequate/generous wage.
Assuming 30 days -> 180sp or 18gp for a Soldier that will serve for about a month.
How much do you want to go against the garrison of a small town, 1000?
1000 x18 = 18,000gp.
The average treasure value for a Level 15 party is 22,000gp.
It's way beyond Level 9 for sure, but it's not far-fetched for a Level 15 party to be able to field and maintain 1000 men monthly, assuming they are not limited to just 1 adventure per month.
What legal ruling stops you from using said men to conquer something, or establish a mercenary company and get into some lord's good graces?
On a completely different note, a Castle as per the DMG costs 500,000gp.
What stops a high-end party from collectively buying such a building and make it a base of sorts?
I agree with you that there is no dedicated section on the core two books (DMG, PHB) on HOW to rule or establish a base/stronghold/whatever, but it does not strictly forbid it.

>>96382804 (OP)
No, because if that was possible then its stupid for the gods to not have an aggreement to nuke anyone who gets over a certain level of power. We see Vlaakith the Lich Queen do this with the Githyanki specifically because she knows that she CAN be challenged, so she eats her subjects that get strong enough that they might become a threat to her BEFORE they reach the point that she can't handle them.

The gods would do the same. You want to be smug about all of the ways that a level 20 wizard can hurt or kill a god? Cool. You just wrote a very compelling reason for all characters to burst into a cloud of ashes upon reaching level 12. Maybe martials get to live to level 15.
I, as a god of immense power, have no obligation to play fair and LET you get strong enough to oppose me. The only reason that gods would tolerate high level characters to exist is if they have reason to believe that even high level characters are not a threat to them.

>>96398848
A deity in the D&D sense is a powerful being with Divine Ranks, depending on whatever version you are using.
They are not omnipotent and do not automatically have the ability to destroy anything that goes against their wishes.
A sufficiently strong PC party can threaten them and this has been a very common aspect of old D&D.
The fact that deities are this untouchable no-no taboo is a relatively new thing and not vested in the lore of Forgotten Realms (were deities are perfectly killable, if sufficient means and circumstances are available, a.k.a a high/epic-level adventure), as well as the core end-goal of several old D&D adventures (that pit the party against evil deities like Lolth).
You are assuming that a multiverse of multiple planes of existence (since you are referencing the Forgotten Realms), several of which are defined as 'infinite', can somehow be micromanaged by a dozen greater/intermediate deities that oppose each other and none of which are considered omnipotent. The sole Overdeity (Ao) who can arguably pull that off works in 'mysterious ways' (a.k.a doesn't much give a fuck as long as everyone is upholding some portfolio).

>>96398848
>gods
>agreeing
>ever
the entire point of having several gods is that they are different people with different agendas

>>96382804 (OP)
Nah that should stay in JRPGs, gods lose their flair as a tangible force that can be power crept

>>96390350
Truly stunning and brave anon

>>96382804 (OP)
Sure. That's the beauty of TTRPGs, you can do whatever the fuck you and your group wants.
You do need to be quite skilled as a DM to pull that off in a fill campaign, however.

>>96382894
What are some examples of games it would fit?

>>96399855
This.

>>96406222
Rifts: there are lesser gods that could make a good final or end game compitietion
your players can start out pretty tough and if they are working up 8 to 12 levels, collectiong insain gear, hiring mercs, getting other gods blessings, make a great plan, set a trap and do some good work on the way you wanna run the final battle

a DND or path finder gods are extremely hard to kill if somehow even if their minions dont get involved and you gotta nearly just hand billions of gold worth of gear and crazy set up to make it work

>>96406222
It's a canon event in Dragonlance. A high level party fucked around with the gods and they got so butthurt they banned humans from going above level 18 and then left taking their healing magic with them.

>>96398848
Dragonlance literally has a hard level cap enforced by the gods that if characters somehow exceed they get expelled from. Most D&D settings don't have anywhere near that sort of agreement from the gods, and in fact it's INCREDIBLY common for pantheons to feature former mortals and adventurers/etc who have ascended to godhood themselves.

Kelemvor is a former mortal and the current god of the dead in Faerun, for example. Obviously it's difficult for a person to become a god, but it's absolutely possible.

>>96399855
>Nah that should stay in JRPGs
You stupid fucking faggot, JRPGs took it from Dungeons and Dragons, not the other way around.
"Get strong enough, level up, and kill God" is a feature of D&D dating back more than 40+ years. D&D gods are not YHWH, they're Ares and Poseidon; a suitably heroic mortal defeating them is absolutely intentional, you fuckers would look at Diomedes catching Ares' spear and hurling it back to impale him and call it "anime bullshit" because you're so irony poisoned

>>96411609
You couldn't just go and kill poseidon my dear redditorman.

>>96382804 (OP)
Level?

>>96385463
>>96386352
>>96392895

You could just play ACKS instead, which does have these things baked in and actually integrated into the system. Or don't. It also has rules for ascending to a quasi-divine being.

>>96392895
Or I could just do it from the start of the game.

>>96386296
>I want that hand Vecna.
>You can't have my hand!
>Oh yeah I can!
>The hand is mine it belongs to me, you can not take my hand! The hand is mine it belongs to be, you can not take my hand! RAAAAAAAAH!

>>96412909
yes you can and you got bonus points if you used the sentient weapon Wave to do it

No, because all the gods in every D&D realm were wiped out by Waldorf the Magnificent in the 1980s, as explained on the Dragon letters page, when he invented the spell 'Power word Nuke'. He explained that he had destroyed every realm and plane and asked everyone to send in their character sheets so he could add up the xp and loot. Over the following year, readers sent in accounts about how their character (usually lifted from Dieties and Demigods Manual) fought Waldorf, to which Waldorf replied and explained how he in fact defeated them. Because of this, there are no more gods anymore and anyone who says so is delusional.

>>96382804 (OP)
If it has stats, you can kill it