Thread 96397249

Realism is fun, you're just doing it wrong because you've played too much dnd. Also, the most popular fantasy settings are Middle-earth and A Song of Ice and Fire. And they have one thing in common - realism.
https://youtu.be/BVLJ4NUQz6I

Not giving views to your garbage jewtube channel.

minus everything after "Realism is fun"

>>96397249 (OP)
>Middle-earth and A Song of Ice and Fire.
>And they have one thing in common - realism.
Balrogs and Dragons are my most favorite elements of real life.

>>96401338
>setting is 99% realistic
>rrrrreeeeee, this 1% shows that realism is not needed
You are absolutely retarded and did not understand that the ratio of 99% realism to 1% fantasy makes the fantasy elements stand out better. In other words, if everyone is special, no one is special and that is why your settings are shit, they trivialize fantasy elements.

>>96400060
Is that a Reddit Post On 4chan, Wow Upvote, First Time that happened

>>96401729
A Song of Ice and Fire with its noble houses that've stayed in power for thousands of years and long-ass winters and its fuckhuge Wall manned by convicts and scum isn't 99% realistic, not even before accounting for dragons and White Walkers and shit. Lord of the Rings doesn't even try to be realistic. It's more grounded in mythology and fairytakes than reality.

>>96397249 (OP)
lord of the rings is rather pointedly not meant to be realistic
its not even meant to be totally internally consistent, its meant to read out like a literal myth passed down through the ages
it is meant to be no more realistic than hercules or odysseus

>>96401789
>A Song of Ice and Fire with its noble houses that've stayed in power for thousands of years and long-ass winters
These are fantasy elements. But that doesn't change the fact that people behave like people, and their lives are realistic. Just like the characters' stories.

>Wall manned by convicts and scum isn't 99% realistic
Are you American? You sound like a stupid burger who has never opened a proper history book in his life. That's what happens when your country starts out as a colony for criminal scum.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quota_System_(Royal_Navy)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penal_military_unit#

>Lord of the Rings doesn't even try to be realistic
Almost all weapons and armor are realistic, plus the characters almost do not use magic while fantasy elements are used very rarely and are placed far apart. So to think that Middle-earth (only the fucking secondary use Lord of the Rings will) just because the author sometimes used fantasy elements can only be a very stupid person like you.

>>96397249 (OP)
An hour later, her stomach began to cramp so badly that she could not go on. She spent the rest of that day retching up green slime. If I stay here, I will die. I may be dying now. Would the horse god of the Dothraki part the grass and claim her for his starry khalasar, so she might ride the nightlands with Khal Drogo? In Westeros the dead of House Targaryen were given to the flames, but who would light her pyre here? My flesh will feed the wolves and carrion crows, she thought sadly, and worms will burrow through my womb. Her eyes went back to Dragonstone. It looked smaller. She could see smoke rising from its wind-carved summit, miles away. Drogon has returned from hunting.

Sunset found her squatting in the grass, groaning. Every stool was looser than the one before, and smelled fouler. By the time the moon came up she was shitting brown water. The more she drank, the more she shat, but the more she shat, the thirstier she grew, and her thirst sent her crawling to the stream to suck up more water. When she closed her eyes at last, Dany did not know whether she would be strong enough to open them again.

She dreamt of her dead brother.

>>96401799
And yet when it comes to most things in the setting, everything is realistic and logical. Because Tolkien built the setting on myths in which the main principle was to show how supernatural forces invade ordinary life. And that's why Tolkien's characters are not superheroes, do not carry absurdly huge swords or behave like complete retards because they are characters, not cliches from a stupid set of cliches from modern fantasy. And if you think that including dragons somehow negates the realism in the setting, it just means that autism is strong with you.

>>96401837
>rrrreeeeee, realism is when everyone is sick and has gangrene 100% of the time
>don't ask me how humanity survived, thinking is not my strong point and that's why I choose unrealistic fantasy
EVERY. FUCKING. TIME.

>>96401851
>Because Tolkien built the setting on myths in which the main principle was to show how supernatural forces invade ordinary life.
that makes it grounded, but not realistic in the slightest
which are two different concepts entirely

>And if you think that including dragons somehow negates the realism in the setting
they definitely do, since dragons are by definition unreal

>>96401833
>These are fantasy elements.
Yes, fantasy elements that are so fantastic and prevalent that claiming realism as a defining factor of the series or its popularity is nothing sort of ridiculous.

>Wall manned by convicts and scum isn't 99% realistic
>Are you American? You sound like a stupid burger who has never opened a proper history book in his life. That's what happens when your country starts out as a colony for criminal scum.
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quota_System_(Royal_Navy)
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penal_military_unit#
No, anon, I'm Finnish, and also rather interested in history. Tell me, though, what kinds of mental gymnastics did you have to engage in to arrive at the conclusion that a relatively short-lived practice where British counties sonetimes, as a last resort, sent convicts to serve on ships that were mostly manned by free volunteers, is in any way similar to the long-standing and implausibky stable institution of the Night's Watch? Which specific RL penal units do you think to have independently and with no real external oversight served in a position as important as that of the Watch?

>LotR
It sounds like rather than arguing that LotR is realistic, you're just arguing that it has some realistic elements. Which it does have, sure, but the core of the story is mythological rather than realistic.

>>96401865
>that makes it grounded, but not realistic in the slightest
>they definitely do, since dragons are by definition unreal
Yes, it's autism. It's that dragons don't cancel realism if it exists in the setting. Deal with it.

>>96401851
Hobbits aren't realistic, anon. Shire's idealized rural idyll is a beautiful dream, not something rooted in reality. Hobbit's unassuming heroism and role in savibg the world is an idealistic exultation of the common folk amd of the triumph of common decency over grand evils, not a realistic take on anything. Magic aside, the events and characters of LotR aren't realistic, they're not supposed to be realistic, and they're good and memorable because they're rooted in hopes and fears and ideals rather than how things are in reality. You don't understand LotR, and for that matter you don't seem to genuinely understand the concepts of realism and fantasy, either.

>>96401867
>realism as a defining factor of the series or its popularity is nothing sort of ridiculous
Realism allows people to connect better with the characters and the setting and it makes fantasy things stand out better against the background of realism. That's what makes settings so popular. This is called quality writing.

>short-lived practice
>One of the earliest examples of penal military units was established, were written in the Chinese annals Records of the Grand Historian and Book of Han. During the Han–Dayuan War, unhappy with the failure of General Li Guangli in an earlier expedition in 104 BC, Emperor Wu of Han promised amnesty and rewards to criminals, prisoners and bandits (赦囚徒捍寇盜) and dispatched a 60,000-strong army consisting of "bad boys" (惡少年) to attack the Greco-Bactrian kingdom of Dayuan in 102 BC.
>During World War I, the British Armed Forces were mobilized for military service. Courts offered defendants the option of enlisting to avoid imprisonment, while young offenders in borstals and adult prisoners were granted early release for their service.
>The book "The Short-Timers" (which Full Metal Jacket is an adaption of) is semi-autobiographical. Animal Mother, one of the Marines in the book, joined the Marine Corps because a judge threatened him with prison for stealing a car. So it's very likely that the author, who was a Vietnam vet, knew someone or several people like that in Vietnam
>short-lived practice
Why are you lying? Anyone who has studied history knows that criminals have always been a source of cannon fodder. At this point I will stop debating with you because it is obvious that you are high on your own fart and at the same time talk from your own ass.

>>96401875
>realistic
>adjective
>seeming to exist or be happening in fact
>https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/realistic
Real and realistic are two different things. Historical fiction with fictional characters is realistic, but not a real chronology of the real people lives.

>>96401908
Lord of the rings is literally symbolic rather than realistic
The events unfold based on how they further the themes of the story rather than feeling like something that could happen

>>96401900
>Realism allows people to connect better with the characters and the setting and it makes fantasy things stand out better against the background of realism. That's what makes settings so popular. This is called quality writing.
Brother, if all you mean by realism is people acting like people, even when they exist in a fundamentally fantastic context, you should've said so in the OP. That's not how anyone else degines realism, there's about a 0% chance of you not knowing that it's not how people use the term, and intentionally inviting misunderstanding by using common terms in uncommon ways is not cute.

>penal units
"Short-lived practice" explicitly referred to the British practice you, yourself, used as an example. Nobody has denied the existence of penal units, just their similarity to the Night's Watch. None of the examples you've given are even slightly similar to the Night's Watch, which, again, is a stable and long-lasting institution serving an extremely important, even if at the start of the series underestimated, function with next to no external oversight. Are you intentionally dishonest or do you genuinely have some kind of a difficulty comprehending what I'm saying?

>>96401908
Yes, anon. I know. Everyone knows. Hobbits not being real us something I assume even you ubderstand without being told to. Them being unrealistic is specifically what I explained to you. I also explained my reasoning, which was not in any part based on the characters or events of the book not being literally true. Also what this anon >>96401917 said.

>>96401926
Not just the British. If you could read more than one sentence you would know that this practice dates back to Ancient Rome. And was used in France, the USSR, China, Germany, etc. But you are stupid and that explains why you are against realism - fantasy for you is a convenient cover for your idiocy, it's not that the setting/characters are stupid and illogical, it's just fantasy, bro, don't torture an idiot with concepts like logic and consistency, bro.

>>96402049
That anon isn't calling the practice new. He's asking for an INDIVIDUAL example of the practice being used long term.
>It was used in ancient China and also 20th century Britain
Is not an example of that. That's like saying
>the concept of empires is thousands of years old so every single empire must have been thousands of years old

>>96401858
Counterpoint: India.

>>96397249 (OP)
>A Song of Ice and Fire
>realistic
Cabbages

>>96401858
OP was the one who cited A Song of Ass and Fat as realistic, you don't get to have a melty wjen someone quotes your precious le realistic fantasy bible

>>96402049
Anon, I called that British practice short-lived, not the general idea of using prisoners for war. However, none of the examples you've provided is a case of long-term military use of unsupervised criminals for an important, prominent purpose. Hence, none of those examples resembles the Night's Watch. Hence, none of those examples offers evidence supporting the idea of the Night's Watch being in any way realistic. In other words, this anon >>96402074 has it right.

This is the third time I've explained this to you. What's the specific part of my explanation that you're finding difficult to understand?

Advertising/begging requires the purchase of an ad.

>>96402187
>unsupervised criminals
>army
Yes, you are retarded. The army and prison have a lot in common, so being unsupervised in the army is nonsense.

>none of those examples resembles the Night's Watch
First, the Night Watch is not made up exclusively of criminals, it is a "voluntary" organization full of people from all castes of society, and the fact that you don't know this shows that you're talking out of your ass. The second is that all armies in the past accepted criminals (and sometimes simply ransomed them from prison) without question because the armies of the past did not have such concepts as war crimes and order in the army was maintained by such methods as corporal punishment and the death penalty. So, unlike today, the commanders of the past knew how to turn a criminal into an obedient soldier.

>>96402312
Night's Watch of the current day, however, mostly consist of dregs of society, led by the dregs of nobility, supervised by no pne but other scum. That is pretty obviously different from an army accepting criminals. I see that you've given up on even trying to argue that any of your examples were actually relevant, at least. That's a bit of progress. Maybe it's about time to move on arguing about the realism of the Night's Watch to arguing about the realism of the timescales involved in certain Houses' reigns, the way seasons work, the way people's lifestyles and agriculture are (not) adapted to the way seasons work, the sustainability of Dothraki way of life, the overall believability of the Dothraki culture or something else like that.

>>96402333
>Night's Watch of the current day, however, mostly consist of dregs of society, led by the dregs of nobility, supervised by no pne but other scum.
And if you knew anything about real life, you would know that all armies are like this during peacetime because army is the first thing the state starts saving on. Go outside and touch the grass, kid.

>>96402367
>during peacetime because army is the first thing the state starts saving on
kek

>>96397249 (OP)
(You)

>>96402367
All historical states in peacetime decide to give criminals weapons and put them in charge of border defense? Really? That is a bold, bold claim, anon.

>>96402367
>army is the first thing the state starts saving on
... so from which of the Western European countries are you from?
Because this is a complete abberration post-Cold War that there is a handful of nations that is skimping on their armed forces. And it's a historical abberration in general. Apparatus of oppression is the LAST thing any country is going to skim on, and army tends to be part of it. If they DO skim on it, it means they are either an island far away from everyone else, have incredibly small population (so the whole army is a single brigade) or there is a sugar daddy that maintains own army for them (like in case of non-French Western Europe)

>>96397249 (OP)
You're confusing realístic with consistent. Realístic would be Frodo dying of hunger before reaching Mordor.
And even more important, what works on a book =/= what works on a game. You lay enjoy a bunch of chapters in the domestic setting of the Shire but It won't make a really good game unless your group it's specifically aiming for a slice of life thing.

>>96402436
>And it's a historical abberration in general.
The United States literally did not have an army of a sufficient level before the start of World War II. Or China before colonization. Asian countries generally enjoyed a long period of peace (we're talking about 200-300 years) before they were colonized. So on a planetary level, Europe was the anomaly with constant wars, but even in this region, the period of peace increased and wars became shorter as technology advanced and the cost of war increased.

>>96402436
Even when a country decides to save money by cutting down on the armed forces, it doesn't necessarily mean that the quality of individuals in the army lowers. In my (Eurooean) country it seems like military jobs are fairly popular but few in number, meaning that when a position opens there are plenty of applicants, presumably meaning that tge armed forces can be picky about who they hire. I'm not bading this on deep personal familiarity with the army, though - my country has compulsory milutary service but it's been a long time since I finished mine and it's a whole different world from serving as a career, anyways - but I know at least three people who're doing well in civilian life, who're thinking of applying for an army job but who're not sure if they'll get the job due to there usually being plenty of competition for new openings.

>>96402528
>In my (Eurooean) country
I have news for you - the rest of the world is not your country, and not even Europe. In Japan, the prestige of the army is so low that the stereotypical soldier is considered a loser who could not find a job and was forced to join the army. And this is not the first time that this has happened in the world, Korea in the 16th century also had a bad army and was literally occupied by Japan, the country was saved by help from China, guerrilla warfare and innovations in the navy. So, kid, learn history.

>>96402626
Anon...I didn't say that the whole world works like my country. I said that an army saving on defense doesn't necessarily mean a lessening quality of personell. Please, read the entire discussion and consider the context before replying.

>>96401833
>their lives are realistic
Everybody in ASOIAF would starve to death over the fuck ass winters. There's nothing realistic about anyone being alive in the setting.

>>96402678
Hmm, who should I trust - historical data showing a steady trend of declining army quality during peacetime or the anon from the internet whose only argument is "Trust me, bro"? What a tough choice.

>>96402705
>historical data showing a steady trend of declining army quality during peacetime
show this data

>>96402703
>Wheat can be preserved for decades, potentially 25 to 30 years or more, if stored properly in airtight containers with oxygen absorbers in a cool, dark, and dry location.
So basically all your hatred of realism stems from total ignorance and replacing reality with your fantasies.qq

>>96402707
https://press.armywarcollege.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=3232&context=parameters

>>96402731
>pretending the US of all places is lowering military spending
really?

>>96402723
>stored properly in airtight containers with oxygen absorbers
You will explain immediately where the people in ASOIAF are getting oxygen absorbers in their realistic medieval setting. Go on.

>>96402705
Does that historical data, when interpreted by a person with at least average levels of intelligence and education - as opposed to you, in case the implication wasn't obvious - show a decline of personnel quality rather than of personnel quantity, equipment and military infrastructure, and is your argument that this trend is identical across all times and cultures?

>>96402744
>where the people in ASOIAF are getting oxygen absorbers in their realistic medieval setting. Go on.
Probably on 4chan making posts about "realism"

Notice how not a single traditional game has been mentioned in this thread? You're all being played like a fiddle by faggot OP. He will argue endlessly over no matter what you post because he's not here to engage in good faith conversation, he's here to farm view for his jewtube. Every bump just feeds the faggot.

>>96402744
didnt GRRM admit that he just chose a large-sounding number for the wall without really thinking about what that number meant?
to the point he had to do a double take when he saw it in the show, because he didnt actually realize how big it actually was?

>>96402737
You missed the point, if even the United States with its huge budget cannot solve the crisis of shortage of personnel in the army and is forced to lower the bar of requirements for recruits, what can we say about other countries? And by the way, the United States spends only 12% of its budget on the army, for comparison, in the 19th century most countries spent 2/3 of their budget on the army. So yes, compared to the past, the United States has radically reduced spending on the army, and there are even voices saying that the United States is absolutely not ready for war with an equal enemy, that the United States is simply lucky that they do not have an enemy equal in economic capabilities, otherwise the country would have problems.

>>96402817
didn't miss any point, you're just retarded

>>96402744
>Underground Pits: For long-term storage, under-ground pits were used, sealed to keep out air and moisture.
>to keep out air
5 seconds in Google, retard.

>>96402831
Nice argument. I accept your surrender.

>>96402519
>Nigga thinks that the US, existing for barely 250 years and not having an army for 150 is anything else than an abberration
To quote the classic - "Careful, that chair is older than your country".

>>96402519
Also, the US is effectively an island, so nice reading comprehension.

>>96402997
>>96403003
>not having an army for 150
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_the_United_States_in_the_18th_century
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_the_United_States_in_the_19th_century
I'm so tired of retards who never opened a book. The US is a prime example of a country building up an army during wartime only to cut it short during peacetime. Although it's worth considering that back then there was a different system and the army relied less on technological superiority over the enemy and more on conscription and quick drills, so keeping a standing army didn't make sense, especially considering that the army needed a large number of soldiers and keeping an army meant running out of workers.

>>96397249 (OP)
>Also, the most popular fantasy settings are Middle-earth and A Song of Ice and Fire.
Middle Earth isn't particularly realistic, it has verisimilitude. This is thanks to Tolkien being clever and relentlessly thoughtful about his work.
ASOIAF has neither realism nor verisimilitude, it's just gritty mudcore. And it hasn't been popular or held in good regard since the show fell to shambles.

"Realism" doesn't factor into popularity even a little.

>>96401900
>Why are you lying?
He's not, you are for trying to characterize real life penal units as being at all similar to the Night's Watch.
You're doing the equivalent of taking some overly huge fantasy sword with unrealistic proportions and saying, "This is realistic. Big swords were used in real life, haven't you ever heard of a zweihander??? You're lying if you say this isn't realistic!"

>>96401851
>And that's why Tolkien's characters are not superheroes
Lol. Lmao, even

Man I know it's a guilty pleasure, but I really do enjoy the feeling of superiority you get when some idiot farts such plebian takes on stuff that you've actually engaged with. Is this how feanor felt about the silmarils? These movie-only midwits trying to twist the story to fit inside their idpol brains, and we're out here actually basking in the last light of the two trees.

>>96402519
None of what you said really seems to be true, unless you think peaking in personnel and budget during war time is a revolutionary idea.
But besides that, we're more selective about who gets to be a soldier today than we were during WW2 or WW1 or Vietnam.

>>96403065
>and the army relied less on technological superiority over the enemy
We've never been reliant on that, we've always succeeded through industrial output and numerical superiority, and also by using allied nations as body shields (Just like the Romans did thousands of years ago).
The few wars where we thought technology was going to give us an edge turned into nightmares that technology never dug us out of.

>>96403193
>penal units as being at all similar to the Night's Watch
No, the penal units are an example of the fact that the army has always recruited criminals and it is not unrealistic for criminals to serve in the army. The Night Watch is a typical knightly order, anyone who is interested in history understands this.

>>96403255
>we've always succeeded through industrial output and numerical superiority
>also by using allied nations as body shields
>USA
>19 century
Ok retard.

>>96403274
>No, the penal units are an example of the fact that the army has always recruited criminals
Not "always", but it's not an uncommon practice, sure.
>and it is not unrealistic for criminals to serve in the army.
I can't find any such example of anyone saying it was.
>The Night Watch is a typical knightly order
Ah, headcanon gotcha.

>>96403248
Can you provide examples to support your claim? Man, trolls used to be better.

>>96397249 (OP)
Conflating "realism" with "verisimilitude". That's 3 in the Cube, scumbag.

>>96403278
I like the total lack of arguments here since it's all 100% true. Even as far back as the Revolutionary war we relied on the French to win it.

>>96403282
>Not "always"
>In 2008, according to FBI gang investigator Jennifer Simon, 1 to 2% of the U.S. military belonged to gangs, which is 50 to 100 times the rate in the general population.
>The army is preparing to bolster its ranks by scouring jails for criminals who might be recruited on their release. In a pilot scheme due to begin in the new year recruitment officers will visit institutions for young offenders in Dover, Kent and Wetherby, West Yorkshire.
>https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/army-is-to-recruit-convicted-criminals-straight-from-jails-739659.html
>The British Government also released criminals and debtors from prison on the condition they joined the army. Three entire regiments during the American Revolution were raised from this early release programme.
>During the First World War Britain’s criminals were mobilized in much the same way as the rest of society. Courts allowed defendants to avoid prison if they enlisted, while borstal boys, and later adult prisoners, were also granted early release.
>https://academic.oup.com/histres/article/94/265/578/6285651
> AlthoughFrench Foreign Legion shields every legionnaire’s privacy, each prospective recruit is thoroughly interrogated to discover his motivation for joining the legion and to determine whether he has a criminal background. Those who have had minor scrapes with the law are acceptable—even preferred—as they are assumed to be more willing to turn their backs on their former lives and fully integrate into life in the legion; serious criminals, however, are unwelcome.
You are denser than a black hole.

>>96403348
>>Not "always"
>>In 2008
Ah, yes, 2008. When the first Army was conceived of.

>>96403348
Is the definition of the word "always" somehow unknown to you, and if it is, could you please just Google it or check Merriam-Webster or something instead of making it the whole thread's problem?

>>96403353
>Nicholas Cresswell, during July 1777, wrote in his journal that the American army was composed of a “ragged Banditti of undisciplined people, the scum and refuse of all nations of earth.” A Swedish Colonel in French service described the American army in Savannah during 1779 as being composed “almost wholly of deserters and vagabonds of all nations.”
You are retarded. Just retarded.

>>96403404
Ah yes, 1777, the other year when the Army was first conceived of.

>>96401833
>But that doesn't change the fact that people behave like people, and their lives are realistic.
There are like three people in the entire medieval society who seem to actually believe their own religion, that is not very realistic.

>>96403404
No, seriously, do you not understand the difference between "always" and "sonetimes"?

>>96403436
>Everyone makes mistakes and a criminal conviction doesn’t have to stop you from joining the Army. Be honest about your past history when you come in for a chat, and we might be able to offer you that all-important second chance.
>https://jobs.army.mod.uk/how-to-join/can-i-apply/criminal-convictions
Yeah, sometimes.

>>96403455
I'm taking that as a yes. Aside from that, this has strayed so far from you even trying to argue for the Night's Watch making sense that I'm not sure what point you think you're making right now.

>>96403513
You took it the wrong way. Although this is typical for atists.

>>96403274
>The Night Watch is a typical knightly order, anyone who is interested in history understands this.
Well I'm not only interested but fairly well read on history, and this is the dumbest shit I've ever read.

>>96400060
Spbp.

>>96397249 (OP)
>Also, the most popular fantasy settings are Middle-earth and A Song of Ice and Fire.
Not for traditional games(?)