Thread 96436201

What do you guys think are the most useful skills for a player character to have? I'm largely talking about non-class based games here.

Obviously it somewhat depends on the premise of the game, but for the most part there's quite a few that are going to be pretty much universally indespensible across every premise and even every historical era.

>Movement
>Stealth
>Perception
These three are probably the trifecta of the most important things a player character being might be capable of, at least from my experience with the medium. It pretty much single handedly allows them to dictate the terms of engagement and cheese their way through the most difficult scenarios.

But then again if you really think about it, it's not like humanity in real life is the fastest, sneakiest, or the most perceptive, and yet they're still the most powerful species on the planet. So what exactly is it that brought them to this point, and is it even relevant in the context of a TTRPG?

>>96436287
Nope.

>>96436201 (OP)
If there is a Spot/Notice/Perception skill, that tends to end up as one of the most important, at least for one person to have, because avoiding ambushes, noticing hidden objects, and just generally being aware of your surroundings tends to be useful no matter what your goals are.

I wouldn't really call it cheese either, because it ultimately just prevents you from missing out or getting screwed over.

Movement and stealth are nice, but they have the problem where you can only really move at the speed of the slowest PC, and you are only as stealthy as the clumsiest.

>>96436201 (OP)
Really depends on the game. Some games have non-skill ways to circumvent the need for movement/stealth/perception skills. Some games break those into sufficiently small categories to make each individual skill much less relevant for the opportunity cost, even if the broad categories are still very useful.

Aside from the broad issues with skills, stealth depends heavily not just on the specifics of the game, but how the game master has things set up. Sometimes a single good stealth result means your character is practically invisible for half of the session, sometimes it feels like the GM is making you roll every 10 minutes to see if you finally fuck up.

To address the last point, humans benefit from a complex social structure and intelligence to pass down information on how to perform these tasks, and the ability for particular individuals to specialize in specific tasks, rather than needing the broad spectrum for every individual. When you factor in our ability to move long distances without getting horribly fatigued, and to manipulate the environment to suit us, no shit we're running the planet.

>>96436614
You can just let them face the danger head on until they die and then flee safely. Let nature run its course basically.

>>96436201 (OP)
Athletics is probably the most commonly needed skill. Even the social butterfly or aging scholar may need to run, climb, or lift things in a crisis. You can outsource your perception, your knowledge, your combat prowess to other PCs, but when shit hits the fan you probably need to do your own running.

For myself, I like to take Empathy/Insight and Investigation. I love digging into NPCs' (and PCs') psychology, since my group makes interesting characters.

>>96436201 (OP)
It's always the Perception skill.

Perception - Stealth (Physical Detection)
Insight - Persuasion (Social Awareness)
Lockpicking/Hacking (Disarm Device)
First Aid & Surgery
Ride/Drive/Pilot
Swimming
Crafting
Command/NPC recruitment

>>96437314
No running or climbing?

>>96437352
Very few systems have a 'run' skill and climbing can generally be handled by sending one character with the skill up and having him drop a rope down.

>>96437392
>Very few systems have a 'run' skill
I personally can't think of one that DOESN'T have that, often lumped into a general purpose "athletics" skill. Though strangely enough climbing being separate from athletics is not uncommon.

>>96437405
>I personally can't think of one that DOESN'T have that, often lumped into a general purpose "athletics" skill.
I can.

>5e
Athletics is specifically climbing, jumping, or swimming. I don't play 5e but as far as I can see there is no skill to run faster. I don't know what a GM is supposed to do for a chase encounter and athletics seems like it would be a reasonable houserule but RAW no run skill.
>4e
Has athletics but again, specifically for climbing, jumping, swimming and escaping for a grab. Compared to 5e the rules are notably clearer about how the skill can be used with all the DCs laid out - nothing for running.
>3.5e
Climb, swim, jump are separate skills in 3.5e but no run.
>Pathfinder
Adds a 'fly' skill to 3.5e's climb and swim but nothing for running.
>2e
There's an optional rule for running and jogging but that's an action, not a skill. There's also the optional rules for non-weapon proficiencies and if those are in play then warriors can pick up running.
>Dark Heresy et al
Run is an action any character can take, not a skill you take advances in.
>Runequest
Skills for climbing, jumping and swimming again (as well as specific skills for butchering cows, preparing corpses and sensing assassins), no run.
>Call of Cthulu
Tfw when I'm midway through a campaign and I've never opened any of the rulebooks. There's no 'run' skill on my character sheet though so I assume the skill doesn't exist.
>WFRP 2e
Again, run is an action rather than a skill. This system only has skills for the important things like 'consume alcohol' or 'torture'.

Shit, bro, other than Shadowrun, what systems do have a run skill? Or even an athletics skill that impacts your running speed?

>>96436201 (OP)
Depends on genre, dude.

>>96438877
DH et al. and WHRP derive movement distances from agility. So you just purchase Ag advances instead.

Also there is a Sprint talent that doubles your movement when running. Having that and a decent Ag makes your run speed so hilariously fast that it's pointless to go higher though. Literally las char I played in OW ran 72 m on a turn.

>>96438934
>DH et al. and WHRP derive movement distances from agility
Sure, but it's not a skill. Compare, say, charm, it's based on fellowship but it's still it's own thing.

>>96438877
L5R 4e, EoTE, Exalted, WoD, Shadowrun, Song of Swords, WFRP 4e...

>>96438877
GURPS!
For dungeon crawl games, it works like this
>When Running Away! (Exploits, p. 22), roll against the higher of HT or Running to avert fatigue, and the better of DX or DX-based Running to avoid obstacles. Use the higher of Will or Will-based Running for Extra Effort (Exploits, p. 20) to increase running speed.

>>96438877
>Or even an athletics skill that impacts your running speed?
Anima Beyond Fantasy with core exxet

>>96436201 (OP)
>It pretty much single handedly allows them to dictate the terms of engagement and cheese their way through the most difficult scenarios.
So does Diplomacy/Persuasion/Fast-Talking if the GM is running the game properly.

>>96439571
How are you going to talk to an enemy if you failed your perception check to notice them?

>>96439571
How are you going to talk to an enemy that doesn't speak your or any language?

>>96439571
>anon never heard from again after he tries rolling for diplomacy against mindless zombies

And just how do you expect to run away from a faster creature?

>>96441284
>perception so you see the creature first
>stealth so you can hide
plus in 90% of games the surprise round is absolutely busted, so that's reason enough to try to get it as much as possible
>athletics/running when all else fails
of course this relies you to be playing a game that does have a way to run away.
Also in decent systems movement types do matter so even if the creature is faster, maybe it's not good at climbing or jumping over obstacles.

>what if it's stronger, faster, smarter, can jump better, doesn't want to talk, and has bigger numbers
then you die. There's a reason OP said "most" scenarios, not all.

>>96441551
>what if it's stronger, faster, smarter, can jump better, doesn't want to talk, and has bigger numbers
that's a lot of the animal kingdom, and yet they're still all our bitches

>>96441736
>animal kingdom
>smarter
I added smarter there for a reason.

This very issue has given me fits for as long as I have been into TTRPGs.

Do you know how many mundane skills an 'adventurer' would need at their most basic? Able to walk very long distances without rest. Able to scrabble under, over, and through shit in a pinch. Always aware of their surroundings (great at preventing instant death). Then there's the host of skills needed for camping and wilderness survival. You're going to hit a river or body of water at some point, and your boy doesn't have the most basic swimming lessons? We haven't even gotten to things useful for surviving combat yet, and we're already way past what most games even give you to invest in a character. Even if we offload as much as we can on to a hired NPC wilderness guide (adult daycare style with sherpas who haul rich people up mountains and their corpses back down), that still puts the typical starter PC way over budget.

And most systems are pretty tight assed about attribute allocation that 'basic fitness' is one of the first things to go in optimizing a build (as not optimizing puts you below threshold for default encounters).

What do you even do about th- Hahaha just kidding. I can't remember the last time a DM put such challenges in front of players. Probably because no one ever has them.

Well at least we can all agree that combat skills are for cucks.

>>96436201 (OP)
At least one weapon.

>>96436614
>at least for one person to have
The really dumb part of perception skills is how basically any character can engage with it. You don't even need to have one character specializing in it, because everyone can roll, which increases the chance to get lucky. May depend on the system and chances in question.
The point is: you can justify only one character being allowed to use a skill depending on the situation, for instance only being allowed to roll a knowledge skill when you have at least one point in it. But everyone has eyes, everyone is constantly looking unless specifically doing something else. So you roll it constantly, everyone.

>>96436201 (OP)
Perception, stealth, and charisma skills.
Seeing things is important and every GM will call for perception tests out.
Stealth is easily abusable for setting up fights in your favor. You don't use it for longer excursions like you might initially think, you only start stealthing it up when you think a fight is about to happen and you want to flip a coin to see if you get the drop on the GMs combat.
And Charisma can vary. Some GMs won't even bother with it. But if they do make you roll to do social stuff, it's mandatory and you should minmax it.

Now, an unpopular trick: If you're playing with a new and untested GM, you should actually go out of your way to make sure nobody in the group has good perception or charisma. Most shit GMs will just stop having you roll once they figure out that all of their "content" is getting "missed". Then you can focus on other skills and either do shit that's fun to try and break his railroad, or if the GM is actually competent you can level perception stuff later.

Storytime the time your skillmonkey character showed up the unskilled simpletons in your party.

>>96449527
My paranoia always makes me worry about the arms race in skill checks. Despite the fact that, reasonably speaking, the world shouldn't scale infinitely with you. 5 ranks in stuff should really do you for a lot of mundane purposes.

But you know, if I suffer from video game brainrot, what's stopping the DM from it?

>>96451190
...I played a researcher Solar Exalt.

I mean I had some basic walking around martial arts, and I could cast flying guillotine in a pinch. Still, I was mostly interested in ancient history and the lore of long forgotten devices of the prior age. ST was tickled pink someone bothered. It let them include a lot of the funnier stuff Exalted has. I got to save us all by shutting down a tower on the edge of creation. Spent some willpower on the checks to be sure. It was a Gold Faction game, by the way. Not much to say since it was short lived, but your GM/DM/ST does notice and care so long as you are leaning into skills that are INTERESTING to use.

>>96452018
This is why I always give my DMs little tests to see if they're gamifying their world or keeping it real. I'm pretty good at spotting inferior DMs before we get anywhere near starting a game though,

>>96452184
Really a shame so much of the problem with older versions of DND comes down to a trust issue. 5 ranks investment is actually pretty decent for any skill. People don't have a great perspective on what ranks or attribute bonuses mean in a real sense. There's an old as hell post about it, but it's a bit too long. But like at +2 attribute and 5 ranks you're near the best on the planet at something. Complicated activities are usually handled with additional situational bonuses like proper gear, facilities, and teaming. Like, you going to do nuclear research in your garage? Well you could, but a proper lab is much easier.

Not the only system with this issue, granted. Stuff that relies on target numbers have flatter character growth curves and low numbers, but most challenges are SUPPOSED TO BE VERY WEAK. Only combat is really supposed to have the treadmill effect.

..Storyteller/Exaled was kind of nice in that regard. Worse to worse, willpower points existed precisely to hedge your bets.

>>96442393
Pretty much nothing interesting can be done with them, in both RPGs and real life. There's a reason being a soldier is always such a bottom of the barrel job in society.

But then again even soldiers aren't like TTRPG warriors and have tons of skills besides just hitting with their weapon.

>>96439571
Please try to diplomacy the falling rock rolling down the mountainside

>>96452682
Genuinely makes me wonder how the fighter archetype ever occurred.

>>96452626
>Near the best on the planet
>Can't pass an average DC even 95% of the time
Wew, sounds like a really stupid fucking post.

>>96452843
Average DC for what?

>>96451190
A player in my WFRP 4e game once """burglarized""" a nobleman's house by getting caught sneaking around, running deeper INTO the mansion, and being so much faster than the guards that they couldn't catch him before he rifled through the nobleman's desk, took all of his letters, and ran off.

>>96441792
>We haven't even gotten to things useful for surviving combat yet, and we're already way past what most games even give you to invest in a character.
yeah it's rough out there

>>96457493
It's why it's so important to suss out their relative importance and priority.

>>96436201 (OP)
>Outdoor survival (even in urban or scifi campaigns)
>Crafting
>Medicine
Nothing beats this.

>>96439571
>>96437314
I'm not convinced as to the usefulness of social skills. Just say what you gotta say and use your skill points on something actually tangible.

>>96437314
>>96466703
>Crafting
What kind? Many systems force you to select a subtype.

>>96475337
Any and every kind, motherfucker. Crafting is what being a human is all about.

>>96469927
Always depends on the game, especially for subterfuge. But even in a barebones dungeon crawl, if your DM has any shred of creativity the art of throwing your voice convincingly can serve as a good distraction for patrolling guards and guard animals.

Glad people are finally waking up to the fact that crafting is the epitome of HFY.
>Movement
Use a vehicle
>Steatlh
Make a ghillie suit.
>Perception
Set a trap.

>>96452843
>5 ranks
>+2
a +7 will pass a DC of 10 on a 3 or higher, and a DC of 15 on a 8 or higher.

>>96483671
>>96479241
I quite enjoy crafting subsystems, and luckly so do my players.
Currently we're playing in a campaign settign similar to warhammer fantasy (but not as grimdark) and one of the players is playing a dwarven engineer. He's used the inventing rules to make an automated turret and is going to try to make a monster hunter style switch axe next.
He also makes all the potions that keep everyone alive now that the healer got a bad case of "crushed to death by a hill giant" and the healer player just made a slayer instead of another cleric.