Thread 96469069

>uh, no, akshually, hit points are NOT meat points, and the only damage a character AKSHUALLY receives is when they reach zero

Then how do homing spells work exactly?

Who are you quoting?

>>96469116
The billion posters I've ended up arguing with who have said this very specific thing, every time I try and bring up targeted attacks/called shots.

>>96469069 (OP)
wtf is a homing spell

>>96469152
>has had this argument a "billion" times
>begs /tg/ to have it again
dumb thread

>>96469156
Spells that automatically target/hit whatever you choose after casting. Like Magic Missile. Can't believe I have to explain this on the fucking Traditional Games board. This site has really gone down hill.

>>96469069 (OP)
>HP is meat points when you're fighting a monster, GM describes every hit it takes as carving chunks of flesh from its body, gradually weakening it as the fight goes on
>HP is 'plot armor' for PCs that means they don't actually receive a meaningful injury, only flesh wounds, until they hit 0
Why do they do it?

>>96469194
it's the same mentally ill freak who acts oblivious in every non-general

It's an abstraction.

>>96469069 (OP)
D&D doesn't make the effort to represent the abstractions of fighting stamina and luck properly as HP (such as things that would alter fighting stamina and luck like forceful repositioning, most status conditions, blessings/curses, etc), just as it doesn't make an effort for much of anything beyond marketing, political campaigning, and online damage control.
It lays out inconsistent, contradictory, and redundant terms, then tells you to just rewrite it lol.

>>96469237
The abstraction isn't properly represented through the many things that would reasonably alter it.

>>96469244
OR, and maybe this might be too complex for you to comprehend, it's a mixture of meat points, stamina, and luck, all in one, and it's made that way for you to...roleplay?

>>96469250
OR it's just meat points.

>>96469069 (OP)
This is all solved by playing a system which isn't mechanically braindead.

>>96469069 (OP)
You can still turn homing spells aside and get hit somewhere less lethal. 0 HP is when you can't anymore.

>>96469281
DnD uses abstraction to make combat more engaging and meaningful. Games that don't abstract injury systems cause PCs to simply keel over the moment they take a serious injury as wound penalties kick in and start disabling you completely from accomplishing anything. Another good example of the smart abstractions DnD uses is THAC0, or as it's currently called AC. Most games try to give players a 'reaction' ability to represent their defenses in battle, but AC makes combat way faster by abstracting it to a mostly passive level of defense and enemies simply have to roll to beat your number, simplifying and accelerating combat rounds significantly. Otherwise you run into shit like Vindicare Assassins in Dark Heresy who get Agility bonus free Dodge reactions per round, AND unnatural Agility, and are likely to have at least 60 Agility base. So shooting at a Vindicare Assassin is how you literally murder the pacing of a round in Dark Heresy

>>96469244
>then tells you to just rewrite it lol.
That's the basis of every single TTRPG though....Otherwise you're just playing a boardgame/wargame.

>>96469250
>roleplay
Whether the abstraction is properly represented or not doesn't change the fact that my characters aren't me, so roleplaying isn't the point.

>>96469069 (OP)
If the homing spell was an instant hit, it would be a saving throw where you go down if you fail.

>>96469338
Yup, it's autism doc. Gonna have to amputate.

>>96469322
>That's the basis of every single TTRPG
Yeah, it's just a shame that every TTRPG also either has a price tag or a "pay what you want", because there are still suckers who get taken advantage of.
More people need to realize that they can just make what they want, and that's what all these books that expect money will tell their buyers to do.

>>96469250
No, it can only be one thing. It must only be one thing. So choose. But choose one. ONE. ONE. ONE.

>>96469307
This.
People always want realism and deep simulation until someone needs to sit there grinding through their turn for like ten fucking minutes.
Even in fucking D&D, which is stupid simple, people will sit their hemming and hawing for like a solid minute before ultimately stating "I attack the nearest goblin with a 17, hits, 13 damage."
There's more factors at play then the simulation. It's also a fucking game, and I don't want turns to take forever when they don't need to. Sometimes it's alright for things to be a bit of a slipshod estimation if it can speed things the fuck up.
It's not a video game. People need to sit there thinking, and then do the math. The less thinking and math there is, the faster shit goes. Obviously there's a balance to be struck, but--not to sound like a total consumerist--it's obvious D&D struck a really fucking good one. That's why it's so popular. Denying that just out of contrarian sour grapes is retarded.

>>96469371
Why?

>>96469371
>it can only be one thing
I dont play d+d, but why?
If MP can be a mage's mana reserve, a monk's mental fortitude, a naruto's ninja chakra, a mecha's battery, a pokemon's PP equivalent and so on, why must HP be only one thing?

>>96469389
D&D didn't strike a good one because it's had arguments about how badly it handles itself for 5 decades.

>>96469402
>Denying that just out of contrarian sour grapes is retarded.

>>96469402
People have been complaining about D&D for 5 decades, and yet it's still around.

>>96469413
So is communism. Your point?

>>96469391
Go fuck yourself
>>96469396
Kill yourself, you disingenious faggot.
>Oh it's... le many things!
It's not. There's no use in making this more than one thing because then it becomes ambiguous and ambiguity is the worst thing that could happen to your group and your game. GM and players could game the system by describing HP loss as "oh it nearly missed" "oh it nearly missed" thus invalidating visceral and realistic feeling of the game.
I shouldn't have to lay it down for literal neandethals but here we fucking are.

>>96469427
False equivalence, not an argument.

>>96469217
because pcs getting grievously injured logically comes with mechanical detriments (hobbled leg, losing your grip on your sword, etc) whereas the same being done to a monster can be more easily ignored

>>96469069 (OP)
Like being punched in the gut. How much HP you have is how well you can handle it. How much damage the spell does is how hard it hits. Think of it like boxing.

>>96469431
>ambiguity is the worst thing that could happen to your group and your game
The other way around, its one of the best things it could be. It gives people more freedom to be w/e they want it to be at any given point. Pick w/e it is that makes more sense or will be *gasps* more fun and run with it.

>>96469489
>>96469427
Alright then. Microsoft. Apple.

>>96469069 (OP)
They home in on your luck.

>>96469564
How so you explain beefier PCs tanking frienddy fireballs then?

>>96469431
>GM and players could game the system by describing HP loss as "oh it nearly missed" "oh it nearly missed" thus invalidating visceral and realistic feeling of the game.
First, how is that "gaming the system"? The HP is still lost.
Second, if you don't want to describe everything as a near miss, then don't do that. Nobody is stopping you from describing things however the fuck your group enjoys it.

>>96469194
>assumes everyone on tg has played D&D
>claims everyone else is the problem

>>96469069 (OP)
>bathing in acid drains your luck

>>96470297
NTA but someone not having at least the vaguest idea of the concept of an unerring homing attack across the entire medium of tabletop wargames, pen and paper RPGs and general nerd shit is a bit odd.

>>96469389
>t's not a video game.
Kinda funny you say that when video games have abstracted damage to the absolute extreme. A boss can kill someone across the room by stomping the ground or roaring at them. Dudes will take a turn to teleport their enemy to the shadow realm and literally slash them 1000 times in a single move with a sword made to cut the universe and the enemy... dodges by sisdestepping.

>>96469281
>a system which isn't mechanically braindead.
for instance?

It's a game. You niggas are autistic as fuck.

>>96469069 (OP)
>Then how do homing spells work exactly?
Like they always have.

What would you prefer? Keeping track of meat/luck/stamina/resolve independently? How would that improve gameplay?

Anyway, this thread is based on a false premise as HP loss can represent physical harm as much as anything else.

>>96469069 (OP)
>>96469217
>AKSHUALLY
It's a concept that people like to parrot because it sounds cool and clever, but in actuality it's unsatisfying as fuck to not land a real blow until the final hit. Not taking chunky hits yourself until you're down to low hp feels more acceptable as a player which is why it's abstracted more in that way.

>>96469307
Wait, you can play as Temple assassins in dark heresy? They must be nerfed to fuck then compared to how they are in lore if they're rolling side by side with some basic ass human acolyte, no?

>>96469194
so hat the fuck do homing spells have with HP being meat points or not

>>96470724
If HP is plot armor points, then homing spells arent actually hitting the PCs, and thus aren't actually homing.
At least i think thats the thought process

>>96469069 (OP)
Hit points was a term coined by the US millitary to estimate the amount of direct artillery hits a combat vehicle could take and still remain largerly operational.

Every character you've made has the hitpoints of ONE because thats how many artillery hits it would take to kill them.

What you THINK you mean are the health points.

I always describe hits as buckling armour and carving chunks of characters, and PCs as gritting through the pain as they bleed gallons of blood. Meat points are the one true way.

>>96470729
Cure Wounds spells would have been a better example, if HP going down doesn't mean the character is wounded, the spell is curing something other than wounds.

>>96470714
You use them in Ascension games, and at this point you aren't rolling side by side with basic ass human acolytes, you're rolling side by side with interrogators and high level death cultists.

>>96469194
Name three more homing spells. Or did you literally just mean magic missile? Fuckwit

>>96470735
>his characters can't tank artillery hits

>>96469069 (OP)
Do you get It is an abstraction? And what about the fact that It is a game?

>>96470669
Where do you think we are?

>>96469069 (OP)
>hit points are NOT meat points
yes; this is stated during early versions of D&D

>>96476261
It's also stated in current D&D, the 5e DMG says pretty much the same thing.

>>96476261
>>96476648
I use my fighting spirit and stamina to survive this 5000 foot fall unharmed!

>>96469069 (OP)
All damage prior to hitting 0 is just glancing strikes: bruises, scrapes, nicks. That's why it has no gameplay effect whatsoever to be battered by fifteen billion magic missiles, until suddenly you collapse in a heap and can't do anything other than die.

>>96469152
Your character is trying to damage the opponent every time they attack, the numbers they roll on the dice represents what they manage to hit, and this doesn't have anything to do with meat points versus not.

>>96476663
>I use my fighting spirit and stamina to survive this 5000 foot fall unharmed!
Yes.

>>96476663
>I use my thick, juicy meat to survive this 5000 foot fall unharmed!

>>96469194
a guaranteed hit =/= guaranteed meaningful damage
you need to read more Japanese fantasy media, this trope happens all the time

>>96469152
>Bring up things explicitly left out of the rules for a reason
>Gets malds about it
Play better games, retardo

>>96469069 (OP)
>"Hitpoints arn't meat points, you arnt actually hit until the last hitpoint, they are your ability to dodge the blow."
>"The snake hits your 100 hp fighter, roll save vs poison."
>The ghoul hits your 100 hp fighter, roll save vs paralisation."
>etc
Yeah, it's inconsistant.

>>96469069 (OP)
>Then how do homing spells work exactly
It struck you but didn't actually bring significant harm to your body. Maybe it just struck your armor hard enough to rattle you, maybe it just bruised or singed the skin, maybe it caused you to exert yourself to roll with the strike in such a way that left you more tuckered out than you were before the blow. HP is, per the rules, an abstraction that covers all of these things to facilitate the game going forward. If you want to get into the minutia, then D&D is not the game for it. There are literally dozens of games that get more granular about injuries, stamina, luck, and so on. D&D, and by extension many games with similar HP systems, is just trying to cover the mechanical base of "attack could not be avoided, but didn't necessarily cause you harm enough to hinder you" that is a necessity for more heroic fantasy games.
>the only damage a character AKSHUALLY receives is when they reach zero
The game doesn't even say this. Many games that use this system, and even D&D in some niche mechanical cases, treat half HP as being injured in some way. Injured/bloodied status is a common enough mechanic that if you've played or even just read any more than a couple of games you'd have come across it. "Meat points" are not a thing in the vast majority of games and D&D itself explicitly says they are not meat points. Regardless of your tantrum, HP simply is representative of multiple factors for the sake of simplicity. It's more elegant for the desired mechanical complexity to not have to track stamina and injuries separately.

>>96469248
The vast majority of people playing D&D do not give a fuck and thus it's not worth the effort to change.

>>96476663
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highest_falls_survived_without_a_parachute

>0 hp = death or injury
yo even video games gave up on this concept by the NES. Even sooner if you count extra life mechanics.

>>96469217
Because that makes the game better. Obviously.

>>96469307
Of course, it doesn't make the game faster and it doesn't simplify anything, since it's still two rolls for resolving every attack.

>>96469322
If you have to re-write the rules, what was the point of buying the rulebook?

>>96469431
Ambiguity is good. Shouldn't have to explain it to neanderthals like you but here we are.

>>96470536
Name ten games that have attacks that never miss.

>>96471099
Right, it's curing your wounded luck and stamina.

>>96470735
On the contrary.

>>96476663
Yes.

>>96482387
Just roll both dice at once and ignore damage if you missed.

>>96482448
Clueless.

This is why I actually really like the abstraction of this in Avatar Legends. You don't have hit points, you have fatigue. When you spend fatigue, or have to mark fatigue because of enemy attacks, you aren't strictly taking damage, but you could be. The only thing that matters is that when you're out of fatigue, you hardly have the physical strength left to do anything, whether that's because you're exhausted or because you got pummeled to shit (or some combination of both).

You could look at hit points the same way, rather than literally. Maybe some attacks hit, and some attacks are glancing, or you really strain your body causing them to be near-misses when they should have hit. The only attacks that you really have to count as being a physical blow are ones that impart effects, or the one that reduces you to 0 or lower. Or specific examples like "this attack always hits" like OP is bitching about. Point being that you can tell your story flexibly and don't always have to commit to the absurd idea that someone can just take tons and tons more similar wounds than someone else because they're ten levels higher.

>>96469069 (OP)
The target manages to dodge it using attacks or the environment, but unlike regular attacks that can miss and when they do so have no effect on when the target will go down, unmissable attacks like magic missile always bring the target closer to getting wounded/unconsciousness.
I prefer the fractional health thing, where if something is at half health it's visibly injured.

>>96469152
Do you realize how pathetic it makes you look to lose an argument somewhere else, and then come onto /tg/ to try and relitigate the same argument as though this can change you getting cucked already? You can't retroactively win arguments, starting a new argument in the shape of the old is just another opportunity to humiliate yourself, and a way to darken the lines already drawn on your soul.

Fool! What a damned fool. Actual embarassment.

>>96484111
Poetry.

>>96469069 (OP)
They aren't meat points but they are also not not meat points.

>>96470714
They're not nerfed at all. They're completely broken and overpowered, both with their wargear and their unique skills. Vindicare assassins are the second most powerful Ascension class in the game. The number one is Primaris psykers because they can casually shit out 10d10+20 telekinesis attacks every round in a huge area of effect that hits every enemy d10 times, and other ridiculous nonsense like that. Oh and they can heal their own wounds instantly, heal other people's wounds, hand out buffs and debuffs freely, mindrape target enemies for key information... the list is practically endless. But that's what it takes to overpower a Vindicare assassin.

>>96469217
because playoids are babies and if you try anything fun they throw a bitchfit

>>96484883
Why do you choose to type like this?