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Thread 96497917

159 posts 46 images /tg/
Anonymous No.96497917 >>96497926 >>96498343 >>96498385 >>96498430 >>96498781 >>96499033 >>96505191 >>96505233 >>96506898 >>96516137
Draw Steel
I have been playing and running Draw Steel's playtest since August of last year, and have since moved on to the release version. I recently ran a brief level 5 game. This is my play report: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Be1a7GJ1gjK7SqYQWZmxA2Tx_nIF6vRcTNqOKuUUQ3g/edit

The full version is above, but to summarize:

β€’ I had four players. One had already played the system a fair bit, and had experience with grid-based tactical games like D&D 4e and ICON. The other three were new, but also had experience with tactical games.

β€’ I set this in the timescape's space-fantasy upper worlds, in a UNISOL-aligned manifold. The story began with a counterattack on the fleet of Lord Syuul, and culminated in delving into the minds of two Space Gods to save a planetary system.

β€’ I kept basic numerical statistics transparent, but enemy traits and abilities opaque.

β€’ Negotiations were received poorly by the players. They felt too rote (uncover, appeal, uncover, appeal, repeat), and it quickly became evident that some PCs should just step back and let the characters with relevant perma-edges (e.g. High Elf Glamor) handle everything.

β€’ Montages had a somewhat better reception, but the players still were not too warm on them. They just do not like 4e-style skill challenges.

β€’ Combat was the most well-received facet of the system. The consensus seemed to be "decent, would definitely play again, but nothing special compared to other grid-based tactical games we have already played."

β€’ One pain point was that some characters felt locked into optimal routines. Our shadow spammed Shadowstrike, because it was the best thing to do. The players mentioned that 4e's AEDU felt more varied from turn to turn.

β€’ Another pain point was the sheer complexity, leading to slowdown. Maybe it was because three of the players were new, but mid-level combat felt significantly more complex than mid-level 4e combat, in large part due to the constantly fluctuating Heroic Resource pools.
Anonymous No.96497926 >>96498288 >>96498385
>>96497917 (OP)
seems like alotta hoops to jump through when better games exits
Anonymous No.96498288
The troubadour's player is writing up their own post-adventure report. It will be ready when it is ready, maybe in a day or so as of the time of this message.

>>96497926

I think that Draw Steel is decent enough for a grid-based tactical RPG. I would not discount it.
Anonymous No.96498343 >>96502942
>>96497917 (OP)
Edna, have you considered just starting a touhoufag general so you aren't constantly shitting up the board with your autism across several threads? You've got like three up right now.
Anonymous No.96498385 >>96498430 >>96516146
>>96497917 (OP)
Nice. Been wanting to hear more from this system.
>>96497926
>but nothing special compared to other grid-based tactical games
What games do they consider better?
Anonymous No.96498430
>>96497917 (OP)

>β€’ Another pain point was the sheer complexity, leading to slowdown. Maybe it was because three of the players were new, but mid-level combat felt significantly more complex than mid-level 4e combat, in large part due to the constantly fluctuating Heroic Resource pools.
And this is before we get into tracking surges on each PC, and on each attack...

>>96498385

>Nice. Been wanting to hear more from this system.
Thank you. I am genuinely invested in Draw Steel, but I am not going to ignore its shortcomings.

>What games do they consider better?
In my case, the shadow's player seems to like D&D 4e more than Draw Steel, while the troubadour's player looks to prefer Tom Abbadon's ICON 2.0 (or at least the current pre-pre-pre-alpha of it, anyway).
Anonymous No.96498746 >>96498869 >>96498874
I submitted my Draw Steel summoner playtest survey.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1h2to8GJMvfcmg-G_aJCX4aGbZwaptldwpC5h7j0KyCo/edit

It is a superb start, but...

β€’ The class has an uncomfortable amount of ambiguities. Furthermore, the minion rules are tough to grasp, especially since they diverge from bestiary minions at several key junctures.
β€’ Midair fall summoning should not be possible.
β€’ The bestiary has many board wipes available to enemies (some of which call for individual tests from each target, forcing a summoner’s minions to make all of those tests). "Oops, all your minions are gone" feels punitive and unfun for a summoner.
β€’ Call Forth should not be eligible for Learn from a Master (Hone Ability).
β€’ Take the Hit! is currently the single best summoner triggered action by an extreme margin.
β€’ The class's damage is front-loaded. It is excessive at 1st echelon, okay at 2nd echelon (Rex Scepter aside), and underwhelming at 3rd and 4th.
β€’ Swap Ward is just too good as printed, and too universally applicable.
β€’ Many of the treasures and titles in this document are too strong. The Warbanner of Pride, the 33 Field Commanders Baton, the Rex Scepter (particularly with dandeknights, and yes, even without the misreading that allows extra attacks on Strike for Me even on a natural 18 or below), Safeguarded, and Summoner Successor are especially egregious.
β€’ The retainer summoner is not good when it is stuck with razors and violences, and not ensnarers and spewlers.

Atop all of this, everything is cumbersome. Resolving a summoner's turns is a hassle due to managing many minions, particularly a fey summoner's flying minions, which force the tracking of altitude and can share spaces with other creatures. The Safeguarded and Summoner Successor titles, in addition to being too strong for their sheer damage output, also flood the board with too many minions, severely slowing down the game. The retainer summoner causes significant slowdown, too.
Anonymous No.96498781 >>96498792
>>96497917 (OP)
I'm gonna be real with you man. Your threads are terrible. Since this is basically a blog post, there isn't anything to really discuss.
Anonymous No.96498792 >>96498875 >>96516157
>>96498781
Nice and honest addition to the discussion. You definitely made this board a better place.
Anonymous No.96498869
>>96498746

Here is a bonus showcase. A level 5 fey horde summoner with a Rex Scepter (which can be picked as a starting leveled treasure if the game starts at level 4 or higher) and the Summoner Successor title is currently one of the highest-damage builds in the game, if not the highest-damage.

At the start of combat, the fey horde summoner summons two sprite dandeknights. At the start of their turn, they summon four dandeknights as a horde summoner (maximum 12 minions and two squads summoned as a horde summoner), and three dandeknights as a Summoner Successor (maximum 8 minions and one squad summoned as a Summoner Successor).

The character starts their first turn with nine dandeknights on the field. Thanks to the dandeknights' Staccato Swings and the Rex Scepter, each deals 4 damage with a ranged free strike. The nine dandeknights all swing for 9 Γ— 4 = 36 damage. If the summoner spends 5 essence on a Rally Cry, they each deal 3 more damage, so that is another 9 Γ— 3 = +27 damage.

But wait, the summoner has not even used their main action yet. They use it on a Strike for Me through their Rex Scepter, most likely earning a tier 3 result using the item's double edge. That is seven more free strikes, for 7 Γ— 4 = 28 damage.

The summoner has not spent a single Heroic Resource yet. They also have a fly and hover speed and 12 Recoveries. Take the Hit! makes them and their party exceptionally durable, while Swap Ward lets the summoner teleport around the battlefield, all but immune to non-damaging effects.

The summoner gets more and more dandeknights each round. If the enemies are lacking in board wipes, they will be swamped by large stacks of automatic damage.

I should know. I have played this exact build.
Anonymous No.96498874
>>96498746

Here is a bonus showcase. A level 5 fey horde summoner with a Rex Scepter (which can be picked as a starting leveled treasure if the game starts at level 4 or higher) and the Summoner Successor title is currently one of the highest-damage builds in the game, if not the highest-damage.

At the start of combat, the fey horde summoner summons two sprite dandeknights. At the start of their turn, they summon four dandeknights as a horde summoner (maximum 16 minions and two squads summoned as a level 4+ horde summoner), and three dandeknights as a Summoner Successor (maximum 8 minions and one squad summoned as a Summoner Successor).

The character starts their first turn with nine dandeknights on the field. Thanks to the dandeknights' Staccato Swings and the Rex Scepter, each deals 4 damage with a ranged free strike. The nine dandeknights all swing for 9 Γ— 4 = 36 damage. If the summoner spends 5 essence on a Rally Cry, they each deal 3 more damage, so that is another 9 Γ— 3 = +27 damage.

But wait, the summoner has not even used their main action yet. They use it on a Strike for Me through their Rex Scepter, most likely earning a tier 3 result using the item's double edge. That is seven more free strikes, for 7 Γ— 4 = 28 damage.

The summoner has not spent a single Heroic Resource yet. They also have a fly and hover speed and 12 Recoveries. Take the Hit! makes them and their party exceptionally durable, while Swap Ward lets the summoner teleport around the battlefield, all but immune to non-damaging effects.

The summoner gets more and more dandeknights each round. If the enemies are lacking in board wipes, they will be swamped by large stacks of automatic damage.

I should know. I have played this exact build.
Anonymous No.96498875 >>96498954 >>96503809
>>96498792
There's nothing to discuss here man.
These are blog posts. Touhoufriend is blogging here.

So he starts was primarily a "draw steel" thread but in such a way that actively discourages discussing the game.

And OP, genuinely, you'd be better off creating a blog about this kind of stuff.
Anonymous No.96498954 >>96499017
>>96498875
In these threads it is best to just talk around them. I like that I can play a teleporting sniper at level 1. That's been fun.
Anonymous No.96499017 >>96499059 >>96499641
>>96498954

Shadow (Black Ash or Caustic Alchemy) plus Rapid-Fire or Sniper is a tried and true, effective build. Admittedly, it can be rather repetitive and routine-inducing, as I have seen, but at least it gets the job done competently.
Anonymous No.96499033 >>96499211
>>96497917 (OP)
Explain these negotiations to me. First off, do you got a PDF? Second, the way someone else summarized them is that they're a subsystem that could potentially be tacked on to another system. Is that broadly accurate?
Anonymous No.96499059 >>96499211 >>96499641
>>96499017
I am doing a lot of the same things round to round, but I've found that it gives over characters more choices to make as to whether the situation favors throwing love my way or on other characters.

Combat can get a little samey when the encounter objective is just defeat the enemy, but my Director likes doing lots of different encounter objectives that help to mix things up and Black Ash has a lot of utility there. Last session I wasn't even really attacking I was on the rooftops teleporting around and sabotaging controls for security consoles so my party could win a traversal encounter across a locked down bridge before they were overwhelmed. Was a blast.

One thing I am noticing broadly is that the system is at its poorest when you have a director that is doing back to back to back 'defeat all enemies' encounters. It shines with variety.
Anonymous No.96499211 >>96499301 >>96499773 >>96502974 >>96502999 >>96504551
>>96499033

All of the rules are available online for free:
https://steelcompendium.io/compendium/main/

You can have a look at the negotiation rules here:
https://steelcompendium.io/compendium/main/Rules/Chapters/Negotiation/

In theory, you could port them over to another system if you really, really wanted to. I personally would not do so, but you might find them engaging.

>>96499059

I think that the shadow is more repetitive and routine-inducing than, say, a fury or a null. Those two melee classes have more varied decisions to make from round to round, whereas a shadow has a comfortable pattern.

Yes, Black Ash Teleport is incredible for rushing objectives. I have seen it myself on multiple occasions:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1vgyUQXg6CP4f4FNzre6Jck0VrkjKmXmUaFx4ZUVDyZI/edit?tab=t.0#heading=h.fcmxvyf68czf

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1vgyUQXg6CP4f4FNzre6Jck0VrkjKmXmUaFx4ZUVDyZI/edit?tab=t.0#heading=h.b397o6jqkjtq

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1vgyUQXg6CP4f4FNzre6Jck0VrkjKmXmUaFx4ZUVDyZI/edit?tab=t.0#heading=h.ll5hnicfbh03

In all three of these encounters from the Delian Tomb playtest, the pregenerated shadow (Black Ash) used their enormous stockpile of Victories to funnel insight into Black Ash Teleport and instantly fulfill the objective.

>One thing I am noticing broadly is that the system is at its poorest when you have a director that is doing back to back to back 'defeat all enemies' encounters. It shines with variety.

I personally find that D&D 4e feels more varied and less routine-inducing even across back-to-back "kill all enemies" encounters. Perhaps it is simply because AEDU discourages reliance on a single pattern.

Objectives in Draw Steel are okay, though the Monsters book's subchapter on them could use plenty of work. I find them incomplete in several regards. Many objectives are in sore need of round-based reinforcements, round limits, or both. And even then, monsters were clearly not designed with objectives in mind.
Anonymous No.96499301 >>96499445
>>96499211
Designing monsters around different objectives would be an interesting project.
Anonymous No.96499445
>>96499301

A problem with many of Draw Steel's monsters is that, right from level 1, so many of them have enough mobility to break objectives in half. Any objective that calls for mobility can be cheese by level 1 demons with Abyssal Rift, level 1 high elves (e.g. soot crows, zephyrs) with In Defiance of Time, level 1 wode elf scouts with speed 10 and Vines Everywhere, and so on.

Those are just level 1 enemies, too, to say nothing of higher-level foes.
Anonymous No.96499641 >>96499773 >>96501732 >>96502775 >>96516169
>>96499017
>>96499059
This is really damning for the game to be honest. The main appeal was to have combat that was deep enough that it would be fun on its own without the dm needing to spice up the encounters in order for it to be. This was to be the cs on de_dust2 that you can just play forever and it'd be entertaining, but apparently not.
Anonymous No.96499773
>>96499641

As I mention in >>96499211, I think it is more of a problem with the shadow specifically.
Anonymous No.96501732 >>96504681 >>96506180
>>96499641
Not him, but Draw Steel shines at its best when you are taking advantage of the high mobility and pushing/pulling mechanics.
I don't know if you consider this 'spice up', but just make sure to put trees/pillars/walls to be pushed against and hide behind, and some difficult terrain/holes/hazard here and there for both parties to take advantage, and you will see everyone playing much more tactically, because it's not just a contest of dps anymore.
Anonymous No.96501979 >>96504122
Starting a game with some friends soon. Frankly haven't done anything /tg/ in quite some time, so pretty excited.

Is there anything like what pcgen is for D20, for this game? Something to handle the character sheet gen stuff for me? I'm not scared of crunch and I think I more/less get the mechanics, but it'd be kinda nice to get a character sheet all pretty'd up with all my spells and shit without having to write them all by hand.
Anonymous No.96501984
I've played two sessions and ran 3. It's a blast. I wish they'd support roll20 tho
Anonymous No.96502578 >>96502819 >>96504741 >>96506180
Can someone just drop a PDF link or at least greentext the basic mechanics (beyond the "you always hit and deal damage" shit, we know) so I can tell how much a pile of shit this game is? I'm not spending 35 dollars on a PDF. Fuck Fatt Coville and his simps. None of his advice is anything a relatively-intelligent person doesn't think of while running D&D anyway. And frontloading that advice onto a new DM is like "New Math": you teach someone shortcuts to doing mental arithmetic that they are supposed to think of naturally, after a full understanding of the concepts involved. Instead, you just confuse people and fuck up their entire mindset. Literally every single person I know who has watched Fatt's videos or recommends them, fucking sucks at DMing. I watched 2 or 3 while bored at work and I had to shut them off after that because I could feel the godawful mentality he has poisoning my mind. Also he supports leftism, fiction first, rule of cool, and freakshit races, so he is an even more insufferable twat.
Anonymous No.96502775 >>96504681 >>96516176
>>96499641
1.) tg is always looking for an excuse to say something is bad. Break the cycle. Do you want to be the kind of person that looks for reasons to enjoy things or the person that looks for reasons to hate things?
2.) Every system is more fun with a DM spicing it up with dynamic play and variety in what the players are doing. There is nothing unique about that to Draw Steel.
3.) We are talking about the repetitiveness of a specific build of a specific class. One that I mentioned that I still enjoy playing, at that. That is hardly an indictment of the system.
4.) No system is going to be fun forever for me. I will eventually want to run types of games that other systems are better optimized for. I will run this for a while and then I will move on.
Anonymous No.96502819 >>96502974
>>96502578
Dude, don't bother. Just play whatever it is you are playing and fuck off. Seriously, if you are this bitter at someone just mentioning a system in a thread no one invited you to, I never want the possibility of running into your obviously depressed, miserable ass outside of tg.
Anonymous No.96502942
>>96498343
He should just get a tripcode at this point. Not far away from avatarfagging.
Anonymous No.96502974 >>96503004
>>96502819
lmao. bro, I'm going to find it eventually. Don't worry. I WILL be shitting on Draw Steel extensively. I just want to be able to do it accurately. The game is definitely a poorly-made 4e ripoff and with books that cost 70 bucks each it's clearly overpriced as well.

>>96499211
>https://steelcompendium.io/compendium/main/
Just looking at the monsters' stats this is very clearly a bad 4e ripoff. Lots of jargon, same 6 stats as D&D just took away constitution and renamed them.
I assume the "malice" mechanic is some DM metacurrency. That's a sort-of cool idea but will only work in a tightly balanced system where the Challenge Rating rules actually work, so it can be DM versus player to actually make it hardcore. Otherwise it just will be some gay add-on bullshit that the DM will end up not using half the time because the PCs are getting rekt by overpowered monsters.
Anonymous No.96502999 >>96503061
>>96499211
>https://steelcompendium.io/compendium/main/Rules/Chapters/Negotiation/
>go to read mode
>estimated time 48-61 minutes
I've never understood the need for such autism when you could just talk and maybe make a single role to see if you change someone's disposition.
Anonymous No.96503004 >>96503051
>>96502974
You might. I give it even odds you commit suicide first.
Anonymous No.96503051 >>96503092 >>96507011 >>96507011 >>96507140 >>96517434
>>96503004
Why would I commit suicide?

So it looks like this game has a paladin/inquisitor type, a barbarian, a rogue, a bard, a monk that fucks with casters, a blaster mage, and a tactical fighter dude. That's kind of cool. Too bad it's fallen for the meme of "let's give you arrays and shit to build your character's ability scores slowly so that it's more balanced, but you also choke the fuck out of character customization"
>b-b-b-but character customization is actually.... LE BAD!!! because of coffeelock and punpun the kobold and stuff
Then your game is terribly designed.

Also looks like healing surges are back... cool, just stack the game with metacurrency right from the get-go. Everyone works off 4e's bizarre framework (including 5e) because it was a formalization of the 3.5e "adventuring day" which tried to force a structure of play that didn't need to exist. Now we are expected to run 8 encounters a day and none of them are challenging, just powerwanks for the PCs until they get tired and have to take a nap. And then adding in healing surges for false tension so you get close to 0 hp in every fight, but aren't actually significantly getting hurt.

Really retarded structure and the auto-hitting is fucking stupid too. Just looking at the orcs where they tromp around the battlefield and deal 4 damage to everyone automatically, is just laughable. This game literally looks like one of those cartoon mobile games you get ad-spam for, that was probably vibe-coded by jeets with AI.
Anonymous No.96503061 >>96503250 >>96503793
>>96502999
Your character sits at a table with Volodymyr Zelensky and Vladimir Putin, ready for the kind of negotiations that you have spent your life preparing for. The war has been long but this is your time to bring it to a close. The life and death of hundreds of thousands hang in the balance. The livelihood of millions rests in your hands. Roll a d20. Ok you got a 16. War is over.
Anonymous No.96503092
>>96503051
Because it is all your fault.
Anonymous No.96503250 >>96503452
>>96503061
This system literally has me roll a d20 until I've gotten a 12+ four times to stop the war.
Anonymous No.96503452 >>96503481 >>96503785
>>96503250
This system doesn't.. use d20's.
Anonymous No.96503481 >>96503512
>>96503452
Mea culpa, it's 2d10 in the final release.
Anonymous No.96503512 >>96503677
>>96503481
...bruh. Just get the fuck out of here and come back when you have read the fucking book. Jesus Christ. This place is so infested with fucking no games and people who won't read the the books of the systems they want to play. How you gonna be a fucking poser on tg?
Anonymous No.96503677
>>96503512
The die type doesn't change that the subsystem is a hunk of autism.
Anonymous No.96503785 >>96503871
>>96503452
2d10s aren't much more different except that they make modifiers more and less impactful sometimes.
Anonymous No.96503793
>>96503061
>Fattfan is unable to envision any scenario except modern politics
Kek.
Anonymous No.96503809
>>96498875
>There's nothing to discuss here
We could discuss how Wizard is still shitting up /tg/ after being banned from every group and IRC I know of.
Anonymous No.96503816
Matt was wrong to change from 2d6 to 2d10 for power rolls.
Anonymous No.96503871 >>96503885
>>96503785
>A flat statistical distribution isn't much different from a statistical normal curve.
Can you fucking squeakers please sit down and shut the fuck up while adults are speaking.
Anonymous No.96503885 >>96503904
>>96503871
All a curve does is change how important modifiers are my guy.
Anonymous No.96503904 >>96503934
>>96503885
>Squeak.
Fortnite is that way.
Anonymous No.96503934 >>96503977
>>96503904
>No rebuttal
I accept your concession.
Anonymous No.96503977 >>96503994
>>96503934
>was dismissed when it was clear you hadn't read to page 5
>was laughed over lack of understanding of dice mechanics
>still thinks this is a debate
Holy reddit, Batman.
Anonymous No.96503994 >>96504017
>>96503977
>Still doesn't understand how probability works
The adults are speaking sweetheart, go to bed.
Anonymous No.96504017 >>96504046
>>96503994
>desperately trying to get back in control
>doesn't realize that he is on a leash
>will go on replying for hours until I get bored
Wonder how long I can continue forcing you to reply
Anonymous No.96504046 >>96504071
>>96504017
*Yawn.*
Night night time sweetie, this adult is gonna go "wrestle" with your mommy now.
Anonymous No.96504071
>>96504046
Anonymous No.96504073 >>96504098
Yep, that's why you lost.
Anonymous No.96504098 >>96504234 >>96506180
>>96504073
Whatcha gonna do. Kids like this need to learn to read the book. We are saved from his yammering for now at least.

Anyway, let's all talk some Draw Steel. I really like what they did with the tactician. Sometimes with these sorts of support classes I worry that they are not going to be too impactful, but they really put some good variety into the sorts of aid they can throw around the battlefield.
Anonymous No.96504100 >>96504116
Nah you lost and are mad kek, keep crying.
Anonymous No.96504116
>>96504100
Oh my god, You are still going. You know I was just fucking with you about you being on a leash and replying until I let you leave right? Like.. I didn't think you would actually do it. Is this sexual? Are you getting off on this? Oh shit, are you going to do that thing where you pretend to be someone else now?
Anonymous No.96504122 >>96504659
>>96501979
https://andyaiken.github.io/forgesteel/#/hero

Forge Steel may not be as polished as some of the character generators for like DND, but a bunch of the new players I've played with and DMed for have found it to be a huge help. Also some useful tools for other facets of the game. I generally like it, but don't always love the interface. Regardless, probably worth checking out and will probably do exactly what you're looking for
Anonymous No.96504123
He's still mad that I won lol
Anonymous No.96504132
Ednas threads were never that good but they sure have gotten worse now that he feels the need to reply to random trolls.
Anonymous No.96504138
Nope you're mad that I'm superior
Anonymous No.96504148
This nigga talking to himself now. We are in the midst of a mental breakdown.
Anonymous No.96504176
Nope you lost
Anonymous No.96504234 >>96504253 >>96504259 >>96504457 >>96506180
>>96504098
In a hilarious twist of cosmic irony, this is the kind of thing that revives the "WoW-ification of DND" shit from the 4e days.

Remember all the new players who want to be a "tank" when playing Pathfinder or DND, then get disappointed cause shit like total defense just isn't viable? They eant to play a tactician.

I personally love it and greatly prefer this design paradigm, but people are clearly autistically screeching about draw steel in the way they screeched about 4e, and we can't really refute the screeching.
Anonymous No.96504253
>>96504234
Replying to yourself to keep discussion going? Wew...
Anonymous No.96504259 >>96504300
>>96504234
>Remember all the new players who want to be a "tank" when playing Pathfinder or DND, then get disappointed cause shit like total defense just isn't viable?
Uh, no. Who the fuck would want to declare "I defend" every round? That's even more boring than a champion fighter.
Anonymous No.96504300 >>96504334
>>96504259
If you've never encountered the player who buys into the fantasy of having high AC, high HP, and tanking aggro for the party, you don't play enough games.

This fantasy doesn't actually work in most games, and these players are mostly new or retarded, but they exist. Im fine with a system that allows that fantasy, instead of one who will never touch a game again cause their useless character did nothing and the whole party wiped.
Anonymous No.96504334 >>96504384
>>96504300
>If you've never encountered the player who buys into the fantasy of having high AC, high HP
All of which are possible.
>and tanking aggro
Which is not possible because that's an MMO mechanic. And no, I've never encountered a player who gets pissy because the game doesn't work exactly like his video games.
Anonymous No.96504384 >>96504396 >>96504533
>>96504334
Again, play more games. For a higher-profile example that even no games can access, I refer you to the old Glass Cannon Podcast where, playing Pathfinder, one of the players wanted to be a party tank and made Four Bears to soak damage for his party, and this character was ridiculed for being both a useless shit for hoping total defense mechanics worse and also (quite hilariously) a bad stereotype of a (feather) Indian
Anonymous No.96504396 >>96504533
>>96504384
I'm a phone posting faggot, please ridiculed my faggotry and not my typos
Anonymous No.96504457 >>96504540 >>96504544
>>96504234
In many ways I think that 4E hit the tabletop community at a weird time. People don't really remember that well, but WoW devastated the tabletop community. Entire tables just emptied out overnight. Some people did both, but a lot of people for a good number of years just abandoned the hobby in favor of WoW.

It left a lot of people, myself included, very prickly and even spiteful about MMOs and I will admit that I took some of that out on 4E at the time with the MMOification talk. I was definitely that guy.

We are past that, though, and I honestly think that a reexploration of some of those mechanics is a good idea. To the extent that Draw Steel does similar things to 4E, I think it is a lot more palatable now than it used to be.
Anonymous No.96504533 >>96504737
>>96504396
Y'know what, because you asked nicely I will resist my urge to be a nigger at you anon.

>>96504384
I'm not saying it's impossible that someone COULD try to do something like that, just that it's not something I've ever encountered. Tanking isn't even particularly popular in video games so maybe that's part of it. But most players I know will call something a tank if it has high AC and HP.
Anonymous No.96504540 >>96504559
>>96504457
WoW came out 4 years before 4e did retard.
Anonymous No.96504544
>>96504457
I am very grateful to my mother that she refused to pay $15 a month for wow when I was 13/14. That shit would have ruined me.
Anonymous No.96504551 >>96504571 >>96506180
>>96499211
the null looks pretty cool
Anonymous No.96504559 >>96504576 >>96504585
>>96504540
What bearing does that have on my point? WoW came out. Tabletop community took the hit for like a decade. Lots of people were bitter about it. 4E came out. Seemed to have MMOish features. People took some of the pent-up bitterness out on it.

You were in such a rush to "get" someone.
Anonymous No.96504571 >>96506180
>>96504551
I am loving that walking debuff aspect to it. Psionics and monks make for a cool mix. There whole things reminds me of that one thing from Shadowrun. Forget the name. Physical adept?
Anonymous No.96504576 >>96504607 >>96504626 >>96504643
>>96504559
You don't have an actual point, WoW didn't "devastate" tabletop because tabletop occupies an entirely different niche. Nobody was bitter about WoW when 4e launched because it hadn't affected the hobby in any significant way.
They sure were after though, because 4e was designed to cater to the WoW audience.
Anonymous No.96504585 >>96504626
>>96504559
He got you pretty good tbf
Anonymous No.96504607
>>96504576
Hasbro was.
Anonymous No.96504626 >>96504638
>>96504576
>>96504585
Literally exactly one minute between posts. Is (He) in the room with you right now? lol. Come on, man. This is amateur samefagging.
Anonymous No.96504638 >>96504666
>>96504626
>Exactly one minute
>They aren't
Does it hurt your ego that much to think more than one person is disagreeing with you?
Anonymous No.96504643 >>96504667
>>96504576
You don't know what you're talking about. WotC was internally considering RPGs a dying hobby at the time in part due to WoW and blamed 3.5's flagging sales on it in part too.
Anonymous No.96504659
>>96504122
This looks like exactly what I'm after. Thanks anon!
Anonymous No.96504666 >>96504679
>>96504638
Well you are decent enough to use inspect element.
Anonymous No.96504667
>>96504643
>You don't know what you're talking about
More than you.
>WotC was internally considering RPGs a dying hobby at the time in part due to WoW
Suuuuure buddy lol. Let's see a quote from their CEO blaming world of warcraft, go on.
Anonymous No.96504679
>>96504666
Nice to know that satan is also a delusional schizophrenic.
Anonymous No.96504681 >>96504700 >>96504713 >>96506180 >>96509628
>>96502775
I guess hearing that the rogue equivalent boils down to just doing the same thing over and over again like an mmo rotation in what is supposed to be a tactical game really struck a nerve since it's the class I'd be most excited to play. Considering the game hasn't been out that long, even if you've played some of the beta and you're already finding the combat repetitive I don't think is a good sign. The devs really pride themselves on extensive playstesting and making sure that the different options in the book are viable and comparable in power, to hear that the core class isn't fulfiling that doesn't feel great. You're right that one should endeavour to be more positive, but I only react so strongly because I care about the product and I've been looking forward to it as if any game is going to do replace dnd, it's this one.
>>96501732
No I always assume some sort of interesting battle map, but the "not him" anon's issues with the shadow didn't seem to have anything to do with good or bad terrain, they are just repetitive on their own.
Anonymous No.96504700 >>96506859 >>96516193 >>96516198
>>96504681
>and comparable in power
I'll never understand why people think this matters in tabletop games. Everything being viable and fun is more important than making sure we all contribute perfectly equal amounts. The most popular and culturally impactful games ever made were unbalanced as shit.
Anonymous No.96504713 >>96506859
>>96504681
I found one build of one subclass of one class plays samey in the context of one combat objective after one year of playtesting. Like, I don't mind in the slightest if that is your bridge too far, but don't act like we are agreeing with all this other shit.
Anonymous No.96504737 >>96504748 >>96505003
>>96504533
You could have turned this into a meaningless shit flinging of "uh huh" - "nuh uh" like the other fagfots in this thread, and you've instead opted for an angry conversation. Good poster, better than my phoneposting cretin self.

I just hope you trust that these people exist, even if they're uncommon in MMOs (which you're right, they are). "Healbots" too, which work a bit better in DND, but I think that many come new to tabletops with these fantasies in mind, and I can't blame them. I've had to explain on many occasions that a game like Pathfinder is a game of rocket tag and you cant tank cause you pose no threat so people won't target you, and they struggle with not having a built-in way to make people focus them. Im fine with telling those people that if they want to make it work, then they'd better learn the fucking system and do something autistic with fringe feats like Blundering Defense, but they won't to that cause their concept already failed and they don't wanna play. Having the baseline be "hey, you're not useless you can push and taunt enemies and shit to control the battlefield the way you want to ask a high AC/ho character" in draw steel feels a better alternative.
Anonymous No.96504741
>>96502578
>dislikes something
>spends more time on it and knows more about it than the biggest fans of said something
I see this a lot on tg and it's the most pathetic thing imaginable. Think about what you're doing.
Anonymous No.96504748 >>96504844
>>96504737
t-thanks y-you too
Anonymous No.96504844
>>96504748
Now take off your pants and untuck.
Anonymous No.96505003 >>96505175 >>96505249
>>96504737
>Angry
I don't know where you got angry from when I'm being more civil than 90% of posts on this site.

>I just hope you trust that these people exist
Sure. But them being uncommon is my point. Very few players approach the game thinking, "Yeah I want to sit there and defend while the enemies attack me."
Tank usually means they want to be able to tank damage, not forego interaction entirely, there's a reason Barbarians often get called "Tanks". Same with healing, nobody wants to be the guy whose sole job is sitting there and healing, they want that to be just one important component of their tool kit.
>I've had to explain on many occasions that a game like Pathfinder is a game of rocket tag and you cant tank
This, however, I do not trust or believe in. I've been playing since 2005. I've had four LGS's, I must have met a hundred different people irl between college and now, I've played just about every system that was popular at some point between the late 90s and 10s, I've looked over IRCs and discord servers to talk about and in desperate times find games to play in, and I've never once seen this.
So I severely doubt you've had to, on "many" occasions (Which at the level of experience I'm used to, would roughly mean dozens), explain that you can't sit still and tank. Maybe once, maybe a couple of times within the same group. But few people will come to the table with the fantasy of "Sit still and soak hits".

>Having the baseline be "hey, you're not useless you can push and taunt enemies and shit to control the battlefield the way you want to ask a high AC/ho character"
This I also think is slightly delusional. If you try to tell someone who wanted to be a tank (whether in the MMO sense or the common vernacular) to play a Tactician, they're gonna be immediately put off by the name alone.
Anonymous No.96505175 >>96505231 >>96505249
>>96505003
I'm not talking about incoherent rage like the other faggots here. "Anger" is the baseline on this site. It's why I'm referring to you and to myself as a faggot, and why you were going to call me a nigger. Anger isn't a bad thing, it's just a performative mode and part and parcel of the very nature of this godforsaken place; the ideal /tg/ post is an angry one, and if an anon can't sort the trolling from the ribbing from the schizoposting from the actual good content, they're too autistic and probably shouldn't be here.

I think its slightly delusional to refer to my point about tanking as an archetypal fantasy as "sitting still and soaking hits." And while I haven't played with a "tank" person with draw steel - I'm engaging in a thought exercise - if a player asked for help with a character who could "tank," I bet they'd be thrilled with a simple pitch "you can mark a target so that your allies are more effective against it, and you can either taunt an enemy or direct your allies to attack."

I'm sure you've encountered players frustrated when Pathfinder, with all of the possible feats, frequently demands that a few very specific feats are required so that the character can hit adequate benchmarks. Have you had to explain to ANY of these hundreds of players that power attack is good because making the enemy die faster is the best tactic? Very few new players come to the table with an intuitive understanding that power attacking with a two-handed weapon is incredibly strong, if a bit boring, especially if they've been sold on the idea that "Pathfinder has so many feats that you can build any character you can imagine!"

The "tanking doesn't work" is a variant of the "here's why power attack is good and many of these feats are trap options." Maybe the "tanking" fantasy comes up more frequently cause I went through a period where I had to play in-person with some genuine bluehairs who were new to games, but you're free to dismiss my anecdotal experience.
Anonymous No.96505191 >>96505208
>>96497917 (OP)
(You) will never be a woman.
Anonymous No.96505208 >>96506990 >>96516227
>>96505191
Edna has posted nudes on discord before with a timestamp sharpied on her tits. Bitch is actually pretty fucking hot.
Anonymous No.96505231 >>96505259 >>96505361
>>96505175
Curse words =/= angry. Ever been to a pub?

>tanking as an archetypal fantasy as "sitting still and soaking hits."
I mean, you literally described this in mechanical terms with Total Defense. And while I'm not an MMOfag, I enjoy sunlight too much for that, I know that the way tanks are played is to sit there and make the enemies hit you.
>I bet they'd be thrilled with a simple pitch "you can mark a target so that your allies are more effective against it, and you can either taunt an enemy or direct your allies to attack."
Maybe, maybe not. Depends on how it's sold to them. "Direct your allies to attack" is one thing I don't think is a common factor there though, nor is battlefield control in general.
People who say they want to tank want to play a guy whose main shtick is that he can take way more hits than everybody else and has the vibe of a guy whose big and brawny. Tell them "Oh, you want to play the Tactician?" and most of them will be predisposed to dislike that due to the name and all it does to preclude that possibility.

>I'm sure you've encountered players frustrated when Pathfinder
I don't like pathfinder so no. In my experience, it attracted a very unusual type of autist who looked at the dying mess that was 3.5e and said, "Yep, I want more of that."
I do know what you mean from 3.5e though, and it was really only a complaint that I saw build autists getting upset about. Most people didn't care as long as something viable enough existed for whatever silly idea they wanted to play out.
Anonymous No.96505233 >>96505266
>>96497917 (OP)
If your point of comparison in a positive light for a game is dnd4e it sounds like you really just wanted and should have played a video game instead.
Anonymous No.96505249 >>96512273
>>96505003
>>96505175
Also note that my typing has improved cause I have moved from my phone, because while I think you're a stupid faggot and you're wrong, I respect your comments enough to engage with you on my computer now, and without dismissing you out of hand with a "nuh-uh u wrong." This is basically what I mean when I praised your willingness to engage in angry conversation.

> they're gonna be immediately put off by the name alone
I'm also curious about this, because I've largely avoided pitching to new players (and they've basically all been new players to some degree, considering how recent draw steel is) using the class terminology. I think that D&D baggage has polluted common consciousness so that even many normies know the basic class archetypes, and I think draw steel is trying to get away from that but in a shitty way doesn't actually succeed. "Fury? Oh, so it's a barbarian!"

I mentioned some conceptual archetypes like "tank" that exist outside the standard tabletop space, and I'm questioning if any of the other "archetypes" I might list as compatible with draw steel are "MMO" archetypes. Just thinking out loud.
Anonymous No.96505259 >>96505361 >>96512273
>>96505231
>Curse words =/= angry. Ever been to a pub?
That's exactly what I mean, actually. I referred to it in my later post as performative anger, which I hope clarifies.

>Total Defense
Replace "total defense" with "fighting defensively" and the broader point still stands in my mind. Perhaps I should have been more careful in my wording.
Anonymous No.96505266
>>96505233
Yawn.
Anonymous No.96505361 >>96512273
>>96505231
>>96505259

One last thought because I got called away and just hit post before fully replying

>I don't think is a common factor there though, nor is battlefield control in general.
People who say they want to tank want to play a guy whose main shtick is that he can take way more hits.

I think we are discussing different archetypal fantasies. My perspective is that the "tank" wants to take the hits so that his team is in a better position to succeed, so things like giving an action to let allies do something frequently appeals. Anything for them to eat shit, but for the party to come out on top cause they're the big daddy protector, not just the grizzled, brawny hp sponge. Shit like the Protection fighting style in 5e, or the life link of a Pathfinder oradin. I almost feel bad for going to D&D-adjacent examples as my primary ones, but they're the most common so they're what I'm defaulting to.
Anonymous No.96506180 >>96506213
>>96501732

I have previously talked about how forced movement builds in Draw Steel are some of the most overpowered PCs around: >>96419270

>>96502578

All of the rules are available online for free:
https://steelcompendium.io/compendium/main/

>>96504098

I am a great fan of the tactician as well. I think that the mastermind subclass is plainly better than the others, though; Overwatch is a fantastic triggered ability, Goaded allows damage to be spread around the party, and Anticipation makes Mark much more flexible by applying it to two targets.

In the party I Directed for, I am 100% certain that a tactician (mastermind) would have been significantly stronger and more synergistic than the troubadour we actually had.

>>96504234

Tacticians are offensive support and offensive enablers first and foremost. Defending other PCs is merely a very minor facet of their toolset.

>>96504551
>>96504571

I think that the null is the one class with the highest optimization ceiling in the entire game, particularly as a hakaan null (metakinetic): https://archive.4plebs.org/tg/thread/96220096/#96226573

>>96504681

I really do think that it is the shadow that is the most locked into repetitive routines.
Anonymous No.96506213 >>96506293
>>96506180
Shadow is definitely pretty fucking repetitive. I think one saving grace is that everything that makes shadow repetitive can be fixed with new abilities in future books. One thing I am noticing about the design of the classes is that bad classes don't really have to stay bad forever Because so little is really baked in as core class features.

That said, if I were to fix it, I would give them unique ways to spend surges that tack effects onto other moves.
Anonymous No.96506293 >>96506346
>>96506213

They seem to be prioritizing new classes, like the summoner and the beastheart, over new content for preexisting classes. I am unsure of when we will see the latter.
Anonymous No.96506346
>>96506293
That makes sense at the outset. I noticed that happened with PF2 as well. They initially hard rushed new classes, but eventually turned around and plumped up options for existing.
Anonymous No.96506859 >>96506884 >>96507140 >>96512315
>>96504700
I don't have enough knowledge of the game to comment more on it, in principle you're right, and I'm the type of player who likes to make different builds that are interesting, but while not optimized I want them to still feel decent. The fear I have and it might not be fair to the game, is that it will feel like an mmo where if you're not doing the optimal rotation that is just that much better than anything else you will feel like you're actively screwing the players, where as if options are more balanced and context-sensitive then you will naturally vary up your style. If this isn't the case however, then I'm relieved.
>>96504713
I hear you, I hope it's more of a niche issue than the worst outcome scenario my mind started running away with. Is that repetitiveness of the subclass just repetitive on its own or does it become repetitive because of the kit selection? Like if you were to get different kits would it be more varied? That's the sort of variety I'm looking for where there are viable options, even if they're not optimal ones. What I don't like is that no matter your customization, an entire subclass just does a single rotation, doesn't seem that great.
Anonymous No.96506884 >>96506972 >>96507140
>>96506859
So the repetitiveness is specifically caused by a confluence of the subclass and the kit. Black Ash College gets you a teleport maneuver that allows you to hide if you use it.

If you are physically above your opponent, you get edge. If you are hidden from your opponent you get edge. Double edge means the tier of your outcome is graduated. So you can teleport to a location above your opponent and get that.

Sniper kit gives you a big damage boost to ranged attacks if you are getting tier 3 outcomes which becomes more likely with that combo. It also has a move that has high tier 3 outcome damage.

So you put all that together and you have someone optimized to teleport into sniping positions, hide, and put out big single target damage and you repeat ad nauseum.

But if you are playing a melee shadow or one of the other colleges you don't have as obvious an optimal strategy.

That said, I wouldn't say having some builds like this is a bad thing. Some people just like doing the same thing each turn a la 5e warlocks.
Anonymous No.96506898 >>96507045 >>96507140
>>96497917 (OP)
Hey, I know you don't usually answer posts that aren't about your game analysis stuff but I have an important question man. Where do you get all your cute anime girl pictures? This is really important, please answer thanks.
Anonymous No.96506972 >>96507140
>>96506884
Gotcha, then it's not nearly the problem I thought it was, most if not all games have this type of do-the-same-thing optimized builds that come from feat selections and stuff, which you can just ignore. If I can ask, how are you finding the role of skill monkeys in the game? Some of the thief identity is to be really good at skill checks, but skill modifiers cap out at such a low mod in this game that characters are quite equal in how good they are at skills. What has been the experience with this type of design philosophy? Did you miss a bit of the skill monkey role when playing the shadow or did it just feel natural for everyone to be more on par with each other no matter what? I kind of dig the bigger pool of skills to set characters apart, but unsure of how the low mod cap would feel.
Anonymous No.96506990
>>96505208
Repost them then or fuck off
Anonymous No.96507011
>>96503051
>>96503051
I have a feeling that draw steel is going to get rehashed in a few years
MCDM’s initial 5e products were dogshit until we got what we got now too

Like I’ve played in a table with some of them and flee mortals and where evil lives is eh not half bad
And it’s decently designed as far as 5e content goes
But nothing fooking comes close to larian design

If you are reading this edna I feel fat covile is going to rehash this in five or so years think that his design decisions from then were rubbish
And he will probably make some other RPG with a different purpose, emulating a different thing and fuck that one up too

Despite all that I still find Matt or fat as /tg/ likes to call him here pretty charming
Anonymous No.96507045
>>96506898
it's literally all gachaslop (except for the op which is vtubershit - just as bad)
Anonymous No.96507140
>>96503051

The null's anti-supernatural aspect is relatively minor. It is more of a mobile, durable frontliner in general.

A hakaan null (metakinetic) is one of the game's strongest builds, as I have found time and again: https://archive.4plebs.org/tg/thread/96220096/#96226573


>>96506859
>>96506884
>>96506972

This is not just the College of Black Ash. It is the College of Caustic Alchemy, too.

Any ranged-focused Black Ash or Caustic Alchemy shadow is incentivized to spam their subclass's maneuver (or Careful Observation) and a raw damage heroic ability, such as Shadowstrike.

This is exactly what the shadow (Caustic Alchemy, Rapid-Fire) did in my own game.

>>96506898

Danbooru and Pixiv.
Anonymous No.96507161 >>96507564
I saw a Director run an encounter in Draw Steel. There was a 3-cube-deep pool of mud: effectively water that was also difficult terrain, thus incurring a significant movement penalty.

The Director ruled that, since there are no rules that prevent a creature from falling if forced into water, a creature forced into the pool of mud would instantly sink to the bottom. The Director maintained this ruling when challenged.

This does not seem quite right to me. Does a creature actually sink in water if forced into it? If a party is fighting on a boat atop the surface of a lake (bear in mind that this is a possible encounter in The Delian Tomb), and a PC gets forced into the water, does the character instantly sink to the bottom? Does armor from a kit matter at all here? Does a lightweight memonek simply float, whereas a super-dense dwarf sinks? Does freshwater vs. saltwater matter?
Anonymous No.96507564 >>96507663
>>96507161
Just to clarify, what additional penalties beyond difficult terrain did the director impose? Required swim checks to move at all? Straight into suffocation rules?

Regardless, I think the director is wrong because he made the ruling on the fly (presumably to make the encounter more challenging - were you winning hard when this happened?), but the ruling is mostly in spirit with the "cinematic" nature of the game and the mechanics by which hazards work: entering the space triggers the free triggered action for the terrain to do its thing. There is no hazard that actually does this, but I can imagine homebrewing one that has a triggered reaction to vertical slide based on a power roll (I also assume your director didn't make any rolls, making him wronger). Probably should have treated it like quicksand, though.

Barring terrain mechanics, I think anither creaturing using a vertical push or slide would be necessary to sink to the bottom in that manner. Trying to rationalize things based on kit and armour weight and "realism" would be silly.
Anonymous No.96507663 >>96508157
>>96507564

>Just to clarify, what additional penalties beyond difficult terrain did the director impose?
The mud is simply water and difficult terrain, also conferring two-way concealment beyond the uppermost cube. Water and difficult terrain makes it hard to move through, though.

>the mechanics by which hazards work: entering the space triggers the free triggered action for the terrain to do its thing.
It was not a dynamic terrain object. This was what the Director simply thought happened when a creature is force moved into water.
Anonymous No.96508157 >>96509030
>>96507663
It sounds like the director doesn't really know what he's doing, and it would be beyond ridiculous to treat this type of sinking as the general rule.

However, I still think that ruling this way I'm this specific instance is probably in the spirit of the rules, partly because this sounds to me like more than just regular old water, and there's a couple ways the mechanics would support this. It's perhaps worth thinking through, as I see this type of situation cropping up frequently.

The real problem is simply the director doing this without any kind of roll.

>>simply water and difficult terrain
I guess I'm a bit confused by the repeated "water+DT." Water simply is difficult terrain (that can be avoided by a swim speed). For "significant movement penalty" beyond the rules for difficult terrain, the director can also call for a might test and impose additional consequences based on the result. No movement allowed is the example cited in the rules, but I think sinking based on the results of a might test could be perfectly reasonable in this instance. But the director didn't ask for the check, he just did the thing like an idiot.

>>not a dynamic terrain object
Even if not designed as one, I think it would be reasonable to treat it as one on the fly. The problem is there isn't a roll, and this puts the roll for sinking in the director instead of the players.

I can see a case for rolling either way, but the rules want the roll to happen no matter how you slice it.

The rules for falling into water might also apply here, but that's beside the main point.

The director is wrong because he doesn't know or care about the rules, abd while water doesn't work that way a competent director could make a case that the scenario could play out in similar fashion, just not for the reasons the original director thought.
Anonymous No.96509030
>>96508157

Water is not actually difficult terrain by default:
https://steelcompendium.io/compendium/main/Rules/Chapters/Combat/#climb-or-swim
>Climb or Swim
>A creature who has "climb" in their speed entry, or who gains the temporary ability to automatically climb, can climb across vertical and horizontal surfaces at full speed. Likewise, a creature who has "swim" in their speed entry, or who gains the temporary ability to automatically swim, can swim in liquid at full speed.

>Creatures without those types of movement can still climb or swim when a rule allows them to move, but each square of climbing or swimming costs 2 squares of movement. If a surface is difficult to climb (for instance, a sheer cliff or ice-covered wall) or a liquid is hard to swim through (a raging river or whirlpool), the Director can call for a Might test. On a failure, a creature can't climb or swim but wastes no movement in the attempt. The Director can also impose other consequences to failure, such as being caught in the spinning current of a whirlpool.

https://steelcompendium.io/compendium/main/Rules/Chapters/Combat/#difficult-terrain
>Difficult Terrain
>Areas of thick underbrush, rubble, spiderwebs, or other obstacles to movement create difficult terrain. It costs 1 additional square of movement to enter a square of difficult terrain.

Water that is also difficult terrain thus costs 3 squares of movement to enter.
Anonymous No.96509628
>>96504681
>No I always assume some sort of interesting battle map, but the "not him" anon's issues with the shadow didn't seem to have anything to do with good or bad terrain, they are just repetitive on their own.
I haven't played the game extensively, when I played a character that didn't really move or push the others around, I found it really boring. So if that sniper build is like that, I can understand why someone would find it boring. As I said, if you are not pushing others around and moving around the map, like a tactical game, there is no point in playing Draw Steel over other systems.
Anonymous No.96512273 >>96516232
>>96505249
>>96505259
>>96505361
>I think that D&D baggage has polluted common consciousness so that even many normies know the basic class archetypes, and I think draw steel is trying to get away from that but in a shitty way doesn't actually succeed. "Fury? Oh, so it's a barbarian!"
I agree. It's not unusual, many games make the same dumb mistake of trying to escape the archetypes of public consciousness instead of leaning into them. Matt gives me the impression of an egotist too (Who the hell names their RPG after themselves?) so it makes sense that he'd not realize how dumb it is.
I'm reminded of old /v/ memes like pic related. Instead of arguing that you don't have Wizards, you have Thaumaturges or Elementalists something stupid, just make your Wizards look cooler.

>Replace "total defense" with "fighting defensively" and the broader point still stands in my mind.
I see. I don't know pathfinder well enough to say. I know that it IS a viable strategy in 3.5e with Robilar's gambit, though it has many restrictions in when you can even start doing shit like that
I think it's better when it's not though, defensive playstyles suck and should be less optimal, if not entirely non-viable.

>I think we are discussing different archetypal fantasies.
Yes.
My main contention is just that the one you describe is very rare. Most players I've met approach the game with something from popular media in mind. Better players come up with an actual character and use archetypes as a means of flavoring and guiding themselves. But,
>but for the party to come out on top cause they're the big daddy protector, not just the grizzled, brawny hp sponge.
This specifically I've not yet encountered, not even secondhand until now. It's an unusual approach, most players don't even really think about the party.
Anonymous No.96512315 >>96515616 >>96516242
>>96506859
I approach things in a different matter. On the mechanical side, whatever concept I want to play with I just try to optimize without straying from the concept. This is usually simple since all optimization means is finding the quickest win condition. In most systems, that's just upping damage output. In some, you're more encouraged to raise defense. In fewer yet, you aim for win conditions instead, and do whatever makes your win condition(s) easier to achieve.

In Draw Steel (And all D&Ds+directly D&D-derived games), it's a DPR race, so I find optimizing and other things of that nature inherently boring because all builds have the exact same goal and practically the same (or sometimes the literal same) methods towards achieving it.
To that end, emphasizing balance just heightens the issue of making everything feel the exact same.
Anonymous No.96514436 >>96516337
> I just try to optimize without straying from the concept
I would say that's about what I do as well, you just put it better. I don't think you're right in that dnd and all its derivatives have optimization that's just about dpr though. Frequently something like the god wizard that can do anything is considered S-tier, the one who has the most variety in skills at hand both for combat and outside of it. The bard in 5e is considered very good for this reason, and its control spells that waste the enemy's turns and put the action economy in your favor is considered the optimal build. Defensive stuff is also still valued high, which is why you see people opting for feats that give you good saves in almost all optimal builds.
Anonymous No.96515616 >>96515883 >>96516337
>>96512315
>it's a DPR race, so I find optimizing and other things of that nature inherently boring
Considering that Draw Steel is a derivative of 4e, I have to disagree with that. You have classes where tanking, healing and other utilities are as important as just doing damage, unless you consider that part of the "DPR" race, but then at that point, any system with a modicum of competition is gonna be a "DPR" race, since we are to consider that "winning an encounter" is nothing more than a DPR race.
I also approach the bottom-up approach of creating a character, but I consider different strategies and ways to approach the DPR race to be their own things. Especially when Draw Steel allows for more tactical playstyles, differently from many other RPGs where movement is only really useful at the beginning of the combat, and after that, the characters barely move at all.
Anonymous No.96515883 >>96516953
>>96515616
>healing
Is it true that you have to have a healer in your party in order for this game to work properly? I think it's retarded and is going to put off a lot of players from wanting to try it if that's the case.
Anonymous No.96516137
>>96497917 (OP)
Ok? So what? Was there something you wanted to discuss? Have you given up entirely on even trying to disguise your ad campaign?
Anonymous No.96516146
>>96498385
No you haven't.
Anonymous No.96516157
>>96498792
Yes, he definitely did. Get a wordpress account if you want to blog.
Anonymous No.96516169
>>96499641
Huh? Making the game interesting is the GM's whole job.
Anonymous No.96516176
>>96502775
Discernment is good. Stop enjoying things that are bad.
Anonymous No.96516193
>>96504700
Wrong, retard.
Anonymous No.96516198 >>96516345
>>96504700
The point is that it is really quite easy to design a game such that it is both fun and balanced, so it can only be incompetence or malice that prevents game designers from producing such games. Think better of yourself and demand better from others.
Anonymous No.96516227
>>96505208
the fuck is an edna?
Anonymous No.96516232 >>96516275
>>96512273
there's an rpg named matt colville?
Anonymous No.96516242
>>96512315
you don't win dnd by damage racing LOL. Christ the game has only been solved for 40+ years, how can you not know this?
Anonymous No.96516275
>>96516232
Before it was named Draw Steel it was advertised as MCDM RPG as in Matt Colville Dungeon Master RPG
Anonymous No.96516291
holy fuck LOL
Anonymous No.96516337 >>96516939 >>96516953
>>96514436
I think 3.X era Casterfaggotry wasn't actually that bad, honestly. Not to say it wasn't optimal or powerful, it was, but it created a very different meta where victory was centered around achieving win cons and making the enemy eat so many save-or-sucks/loses that it was game over, instead of going for a pure damage race.
There was still some shit that overshadowed everything else 'course, and the flaw of that was that it wasn't very interactive; Outside of things like Contingencies, you either had spell resistance or antimagic, or might as well have had nothing.

>>96515616
>are as important
Sorry but this is illusory. The name of the game is to deplete your enemy's HP before your own. There are slight deviations in how this can most effectively be done but the most effective way to go about this is to lower the rounds it takes to kill someone as much as possible.
You can, theoretically, make it more optimal to have recovery since it increases the time the opponent takes to kill you, but anything like that has to compete with damage options, and the damage options often win.

>any system with a modicum of competition is gonna be a "DPR" race
No, not "any". Many, yes, but you can create different metagames where damage output isn't the optimal path to victory as with 3.X casters.
I've also played homebrew shit (A non-D&D derivative) where victory was achieved by putting yourself into a winning position; The first direct hit is often a finishing blow, so instead both sides jockey for who has better control over the opponent and can guarantee a hit on them, without being struck in return.
Anonymous No.96516345 >>96517032
>>96516198
>The point is that it is really quite easy to design a game such that it is both fun and balanced
The most "balanced" games tend to be hilariously unpopular. I don't think there's any correlation between balance and fun.
Anonymous No.96516939 >>96517009
>>96516337
Right, that's because the system doesn't provide any means of defeating an opponent besides dealing damage.
Anonymous No.96516953 >>96517009
>>96515883
Yes. If your players are all mindless beaters, they are not fit for tactical games. Because you don't have to roll to hit, it's easy to just focus on a weak link and kill that player in a single turn. Of course that will vary from GM to GM, some will dumb down enemies to prevent players form facing the consequences of their own decisions, but that's not how my table usually plays.

>>96516337
>but anything like that has to compete with damage options, and the damage options often win.
Have you not played 4e? It's literally a heavily combat oriented D&D game where the ideal and most optimal party of 4 is to have one of each role: striker, controller, defender and leader.
Draw Steel is not as varied as far as I tried it, but if you don't have at least one healer, players dying (not necessarily dead, but just below 0 hp) will be a common occurrence (and maybe that's why some ancestries literally start as semi-immortal, and even non-semi-immortal characters can easily pick a complication that makes them so).
>homebrew
What you described is literally a "DPR race", or as you put it, " The name of the game is to deplete your enemy's HP before your own". Whoever has the better DPR wins. And according to you, how you get there is just but illusory and does not matter, since the name of the game is lowering the turns it takes to kill your opponent while increasing the turns it takes for your opponent to kill you.
This is too much of a consequentialist way of viewing things, and ignoring that the fun is in the means, and not in the end. Both Assetto Corsa and Mario Kart are racing games with the exact same objective, but you would be wrong to assume that being bored with one means you are going to be bored with the other just because they share the same "goal".
Anonymous No.96517009 >>96517036 >>96517338
>>96516939
>that's because the system doesn't provide any means of defeating an opponent besides dealing damage.
I mean even if it does, it ends up depending on whether those methods overshadow the alternatives. The reason the caster/martial disparity in 3.X is controversial is because there are non-damage options that absolutely stomp the opposition.

>>96516953
>where the ideal and most optimal party
The most optimal party maximizes damage output as much as possible. Spare room to lower the enemy's actual damage output like with healing, typically takes second place.
>What you described is literally a "DPR race"
No, it's not. If you focus on maximizing damage in that system, you will lose almost every fight because a guy who doesn't can put you in a bad position will never let you deal damage to begin with.
It's ironic that you want to tell me I haven't played 4e while in the same breathe trying to tell me how a system you've never played works. Either dumb or you have very limited experience.
Anonymous No.96517032 >>96517051
>>96516345
I didn't say that there was a correlation. I didn't say that balance causes fun. I didn't say that fun is necessary for balance. I said that games can be fun and balanced. Is being illiterate a requirement for posting here or something? Christ.
Anonymous No.96517036 >>96517043
>>96517009
The methods don't have to overshadow damage, fortunately.
Anonymous No.96517043 >>96517049
>>96517036
Didn't say they did autismo, but at that point they aren't worth using anyways.
Anonymous No.96517049
>>96517043
No, they certainly are. You have no imagination.
Anonymous No.96517051 >>96517761
>>96517032
>I do not understand the conversation or implications
Okay got it, go be mad somewhere else lmao
Anonymous No.96517338 >>96517408
>>96517009
>The most optimal party maximizes damage output as much as possible. Spare room to lower the enemy's actual damage output like with healing, typically takes second place.
I have literally gave you an example where healing, defending, and repositioning are just as important. And it is a D&D game, and is probably one of the reasons why D&Drones don't like it, because they can't just make a party of unga-bungas.


>maximizing damage output
Damage output is damage output, if you are not dealing damage, your damage output is 0. DPR is how much damage you can cause per round.
You are trying to dissociate the concepts of "rolling to hit" and "rolling for damage" in settings where both of them are inherently tied together. If you find people theorycrafting high DPR builds in systems with roll to hit, they will always consider that to calculate the expected DPR of the character.
You literally gave me an example of a character who does 0 DPR, and another does some DPR, and the guy with higher DPR wins.
From what you described, you simply got more focus on the "roll to hit" part, but it's stil a race to see who gets more damage output.
Anonymous No.96517408 >>96517740
>>96517338
>I have literally gave you an example
No you didn't, you just said those are good. Saying a thing is true, doesn't make it so.
>because they can't just make a party of unga-bungas.
Alpha striking is one of the most optimal ways to play 4e.

>Damage output is damage output, if you are not dealing damage, your damage output is 0.
Ehh sorta. If you're giving another guy 2x damage though, you are in practice just dealing his damage, so there's a difference between real and technical DPR.

>From what you described, you simply got more focus on the "roll to hit" part
You don't have a "roll to hit" part. You are either in a position to force a hit, risk a hit, or you can't hit. Unlike in what you're familiar with, the defense has a very active role in the homebrew I refer to. This is what I meant by you having very limited experience.
Anonymous No.96517434
>>96503051
Healing surges are not metacurrency.
Anonymous No.96517740 >>96517790
>>96517408
>alpha striking
>in 4e
You haven't played the game and it shows. You can only really alpha strike once per day. And in Draw Steel, it's impossible to Alpha Strike, since you can't have all players move before the enemies.

>real and technical DPR
99% of the time people are talking about DPR, they are talking about expected DPR of the build. Otherwise, any game with exploding dice would mean that all characters have infinite DPR.

>homebrew
Of course I'm not gonna know about some homebrew you made up. But I'm using simple and easy to understand terms that are universal, but you seem not grasp that. I have no idea what your system "roll to hit" system is, but I could understand that in a comparison with games like D&D, you have a hit system and a damage system, and that you have emphasis on the hitting part of the system, or a "roll to hit" on D&D (I never made it explicit that your system uses die to hit, or that all systems are like that).
For example, Draw Steel doesn't have a "roll to hit" system. All attacks automatically hits, and you just roll a simple damage table.
In Shadowrun or Vampire, you simply roll damage and your opponent rolls defense, the "hit" is simply when you do more damage than your opponent defends through opposed rolls, which sometimes causes the defending side to have more choices than the attacking side.
I don't care what system your homebrew uses, the important part is that from what I could gather, "hitting" is inherently tied to "damaging" in your homebrew, meaning that your example was flawed from a conceptual level in trying to defend your point, and that the character with the higher DPR would still win.

If anything, the fact that you think that damage is king above all else, shows limited experience. Especially when there are a shitton of RPGs that are not centered on combat.
Anonymous No.96517761 >>96517794
>>96517051
I'm very sorry that you got owned because you don't know how to read.
Anonymous No.96517790 >>96517816 >>96517839
>>96517740
>You haven't played the game
t. Nogames. You don't even know what frostcheese was.

>Of course I'm not gonna know about some homebrew you made up
Duh retard, and then you acted like you did anyways because you utterly lack the experience to understand how games work on the fundamental level. It makes pretty much everything you say worthless since its clear you're ignorant, you like being ignorant, and you're incapable of not being ignorant.
Anonymous No.96517794 >>96517916
>>96517761
>Starts crying after he loses
Predictable
Anonymous No.96517816 >>96517886
>>96517790
Frostcheese is not alpha striking.
Anonymous No.96517839 >>96517886
>>96517790
I accept your concession.
Anonymous No.96517886
>>96517816
>>96517839
Losing the argument out of ignorance and then samefagging? About what I expected.
Anonymous No.96517916
>>96517794
Yes, you are.