Thread 96506566

>>96508590
>many different options and weapons that you could nearly do anything, but PF2 doubled down on the 5E minimalism
Im not sure what books you've been reading but PF2e is very much not like 5es shitty minimalism and utter lack of options.

The proficiency added to level shit is one of the things I've come to dislike about the system, despite me originally finding it interesting. I feel like it should never apply to something that is Medium sized, though the game is so hard-balanced that using it for things that are Huge+ would just mean players could never hit them even at Level 20.

Game is completely shit if you're running anything remotely like a hexcrawl. Kingmaker really doesn't work great in it, and I'm not sure I have ever seen a higher level Kingmaker game in action using the PF2e ruleset. If you run into something that is "suitable" for Level 15 while you're Level 6? The party is gone, dead. Even with the vaguely usable chase rules, being instantly critted is going to lead to the party being picked off.

Finally it's shit to try to "convert" into. You don't convert, you remake from scratch.

>>96509060
But you don't know PF2, why do you think you should have an opinion on it?

>>96508475
>Unique
>Stats get reused
Come the fuck on.

>>96509085
Seven of the weapons in your image are Uncommon, race specific, or class specific. That brings to mind another thing that annoys the fuck out of me. The "rarity" traits. They can't decide if it's meant to denote power, or to be about rarity based on the region. It can't be both.

>>96509108
Yes I do.

>>96508463
The only people who say that are completely delusional 3aboos. You have to ignore every single piece of evidence to believe it.

>>96509115
Ah, so you're just lying. Gotcha.

>>96509096
>You don't convert, you remake from scratch.
Thats generally what conversion means for most systems, yes.

>>96509113
She has a twin brother. They have the same stats because they are twins.

>>96509114
>It can't be both.
Sure it can. Ive found little problem with the rarity tags, and have actually quite liked them as they are because its a built-in excuse for me shut off or deny certain things without players throwing a temper tantrum. I can simply point to the rarity and tell them to find something else. Or tell them to find something else because that belongs to a specific class they arent playing, or many other things. It works quite well even if isn't up to your autistic need for a more granular system that distinguishes between region, power, class, and whatever.

>>96509134
>lying
No retard I can just see the clear commonalities the game has and that its design team had several 4E design team alumni so pretending it doesn't have anything to do with 4E is braindead.

>>96508158
Fair. I am insisting they still have big noses. And gerbil-like tails.

>>96508482
And most of those people went right back once WotC put the OGL into creative commons. Or they bounced off of PF2e because it wasn't what they expected and/or were promised it would be.

>>96508132
Have you never heard of turns in dungeon crawls? Did you not play earlier editions?

>>96509184
It doesn't. They're completely different games. But of course you'd know this if you knew the games you're trying to criticize.

Which you don't.

Liar :)

>>96509039
lv 17 is absurd for a gang leader and you absolutely know it
there's no good reason why they're casually capable of killing dragons as a result of fleecing a city for a couple years

>>96509172
We're all autistic here, anon. And I have made good use of the "rarity" for my own game. Along with outright banning the vast majority of the stupid race options, and simply using it to denote what is allowable for the world I run in. To the point that I only allow 2 Uncommon, or 1 Rare race choice for the group as a whole.

>>96509184
Don't worry about the idiots, anyone trying to claim PF2e isn't trying to cling to D&D4e is retarded. But they really fucked up... instead of healing surges, they have the medicine checks and the endless Focus healing spells.

>>96509253
D&D5 has more in common with 4e than PF2 does.

>>96509039
They are completely out of place.
She uses a fucking razor!
I would not mind a super strong gang boss if they even attempted to make it make sesne.
She is stronger than the majority of monsters in the game, so there better be a damn good reason she is running a gang in a city and not being a conquering robber baron. But no, there really isnt.
A good gang boss would be like The Xanathar not some bitch with a magic shaving razor.

>>96508704
And they choose to be... petty gangers?
How the fuck did they even get that strong as gangers?

>>96509290
Dude, it's a fucking black mobster character in a medieval high fantasy game. Maybe don't use shit settings?

>>96508463
it far underperformed 5e.
It is overall profitable, but not near what they wanted. Even with the OGL bump.

>>96509337
Underperforming 5E doesn't mean it underperformed Paizo's expectations you actual retard.

>>96509333
oh i dont.
Im just passionately angry as pathfinder 1e was my first tabletop game so i got some attachment and hate seeing it turned to... whatever the fuck that is.
Not that 1e was by any means perfect, fucking trap / tax feats, mandatory buffs, and outright bad subclass options.

>>96509356
They literally, paizo themselves, have said as much ya cunt.
They cant outright say "oh yeah this is far less than we hoped" due to legal stuff and shareholders. But they will say shit like "expected higher growth, but still profitable results" or "Overall decline in the gaming market led to revaluation of earlier speculations"

>>96509362
Pathfinder settings have always been bootleg trash. The world for their main setting is called "Golarion" for fucks sake, we aren't exactly dealing with top-gun material here.

Just use one of the many AD&D settings instead.

>>96509234
>Logan Bonner, the current lead designer of PF2, didn't work extensively on 4E
>Stephen Radney-MacFarland, a senior designer before, during, and after PF2's release, didn't work extensively on 4E
Fuck off.

>>96509378
No they haven't. Their expectations were PF1, which it blew out of the water despite way more setbacks than PF1 ever had.

>>96509382
This doesn't matter, retard. Just because someone worked on product A and then on product B that doesn't mean they're similar products. Why are you motherfuckers so dumb? Do you subside on toilet paper or something? Read both systems you doublenigger, they are completely different games.
>Hurr its the same game cause you can heal in combat

>>96509039
Shoonies are pugs, though.

>>96509381
the world got neutered in 2e though
at least in 1e it had a bit of edge and complexity to it
2e version feels more corporate safe than even fucking forgotten realms
Even the literal devil worshippers now think slavery is too evil for them

>>96509402
I've read and played both games. It is NOT my fucking problem that you can't see the commonalities and that you write 4E off at AEDU.

>>96509453
>You roll d20 in both games, can't you see the communalities?! THEY ARE LITERALLY THE SAME GAME!

>>96509402
No they ain’t you fucking dipshit

every thread is a 4e thread if u try hard enough

>>96509236
>there's no good reason why they're casually capable of killing dragons as a result of fleecing a city for a couple years
Sure there is, they fleece "adventurers" of all kinds of levels. And it isn't a couple years, its many years having grown up in the city.

>>96509408
Yeah, but from now on I'm calling dogbolds shoonies, especially because dogbolds share very little in the way of being a kobold.

>>96509290
>They are completely out of place.
How? Spell it out, don't just claim it.
>She uses a fucking razor!
She likes to kill up close and personal. They are also called the Bloody Barbers, so its also thematic for them.
>She is stronger than the majority of monsters in the game
So what? And the reason she isn't out being a warlord is that comes with very different risks than hiding under the main hub city of the setting, doing shit like smuggling, ransoms, drugs, robbery, and other fun crimes mafias and gangs get up to. It really is that fucking simple. Not every bad guy want to be some bloody warlord conquering tiny villages in some backwater and getting the various armies of various nations involved in putting them down. Some like being in a metropolis shaking down adventurers and cultists for their money and their lives.

What part of this is so hard to understand?

Also the Xanathar is shit. Beholders are too paranoid and narcissistic to live that way.

>>96509416
>Even the literal devil worshippers now think slavery is too evil for them
That's mega gay
But also lets not pretend PF1 wasn't kinda mega gay already.
This whole timeline is mega gay. I want to go back

>>96506566 (OP)
4e > BECMI/RC > 2e > BX > 5e > 1e > Basic> OD&D
PF2e > PF1e

3.5e was better than Pathfinder. Half of the Pathfinder bestiaries were "lol here's another faction of epic level world shaking outsiders" which except for the daemons and sakhils were mostly fucking gay. Pathfinder fucking ruined obyriths by making them into qlippoths which were mostly söy-facing stuffed animal looking things. Also adding gunshit and techshit to the game. The new skill system made wizards OP cause they could just take every skill and be better than most skill monkey classes. They improved Dodge and Toughness objectively, I'll give them that. CMB/CMD was a fucking awful system, it just made every combat maneuver size based and strength based and just made no fucking sense. Deadly Aim and Deadly Agility were good feats. What else? Multiclassing got cucked. The occult book was fucking dogshit. All the fun experimental rules from 3.5e were forgotten, even though most of them would have been easy to change just enough to dodge copyright, while also being fixed. They tried that with Warlock and made the gay-ass kineticist which fucking sucks. I never heard nearly that many complaints about 3.5e warlock. Then 5e shit all over the warlock's mechanical identity anyway and made it a complete joke. Fuck Paizo and fuck everyone at WotC post-2008.

>>96509674
Shut the fuck up tabletoptruth.

>>96509674
>CMB/CMD
I hated this, not from a gameplay perspective, it was just kind of a weird random patch set of attributes.

>>96509637
PF1e had at least some sections of the world that were okay
but I kid you not half the rulers in the game were replaced by strong women who abolished slavery

>>96509674
one thing I have to give 1e credit for
it actually made playing a fighter 1 to 20 fun and rewarding

kineticist also isn't the worst, it could have definitely existed side by side with the warlock

psychic however is indeed budget psion in the worst possible way, the entire reason psion was fun in 3.5 was being able to dynamically spend power points

>>96509674
yeah pathfinder's quality dropped hard when the front page of the SRD replaced dreamscarred press with the occult adventures book.

Pathfinder got carried by its SRD for many years

>>96509970
The SRD dumping every character option into the hands of normalfags made it shit. Also Paizo adding a fucking feat for everything retarded under the sun made it shit. That's how you get retards looking up a gigantic 3rd party summon monster table in the middle of the session on their phones, the SRD literally encourages these mouthdrooling retards to be on their phones.
>b-b-b-but I can build anything in Pathfinder!
Yeah and your character is a lolrandumb mess from you looking up random shit to use in the middle of a session.

>>96506591
Have you ever been annoyed at all the feats in pf1 that were incredibly situational +1 bonus that were complete ass?
Now imagine the entire system being designed around this. And not just designed but entirely balanced around this to Oblivion level scaling degrees.

>>96510184
what kind of dumbass GM allows 3pp summon monster tables
3pp content is always something a GM has to vet, and any reasonable player will agree with that

>>96509637
What's more hilarious to me is how people say Starfinder is a shit setting.

It's a god damn universe. Literally.
It's ALL the settings. It can be Bunny Fu-Fu's Happy town frolic and 40k all at once with whatever the fuck you want to focus on for any given planet, however, Paizo fags treat ANYTHING not in the official books or APs as something that simply cannot exist. You got an infinite setting where your ship could be the one that crashed into White Plume Mountain, but the average player will just treat it like Pathfinder with chrome and lasers and that is incredibly sad.

>>96510184
it was good to have everything in one place after carting around trunkloads of books for 3.5. Good players already have their spells pulled up on a tab in their laptop they dont need to slow the game down to look things up

>>96510184
retarded, SRD is a blessing and the poor compilation of 3.5e material is going to ensure that it dies before PF1e does.

>>96506566 (OP)
Well it’s all DnD so it’s automatically dogshit.

Also Pathfinder is the game made for people who want to jerk themselves off how much they can dunk on any encounter the GM throws at them and yet can’t put that same effort into finding a job.

>>96506566 (OP)
>Shit

Truly a profound statement and not just shit bait that anyone who has played both can disprove in a second like with the fact even normgroids are saying PF1 was better or the fact the writers of 5th are saying it's a complete mess.

>>96506566 (OP)
3.5 beats the pants off the rest of that means tested, sharp edges removed safety scissors kiddie crap

>>96506624
>PF2 has one of the biggest problems from PF1 with build optimization being considered the "correct" way to play in all published adventures and supplements.

my groups been playing pf2 for 6 months now and this has literally never come up. this doesnt exist outside of online forums trying to whiteboard powergame a pen and paper rpg

>>96512078
then your DM is undertuning fights massively

>>96512078
Wow, you actually have a group that doesn’t constantly go on an on about “builds” every 5 seconds. I do not believe you but it’s a nice fantasy to have

>>96512136
well you kind of have to if you have any type of caster in your party in 2e
courtesy of success rates for spells being about half that for attacks

>>96512162
we've been playing together since highschool for about 25 years now.

sounds like you guys need to find some better groups

>>96509744
The best thing about PF1e are the base classes.

>>96506582
GURPS isn't a system in the same way the DPRK is not a democracy. But, yes, your point stands. This board could really stand to talk more about Eclipse Phase and Shadowrun. Including how fucking awful the mechanics of Shadowrun really are. I swear to fucking god I'm gonna throw up if I see another Warhammer porn thread.

>>96509039
>She really isn't out of place in that city.
Sounds like the city is out of place in the setting then, unless it exists in a bubble where they are dealing with mid to high level shit on the daily, I guess,.
Kind of like that place near the demon hole where crusaders fight hoards after hoards of fiends.
Looking at the Archive of Netys, that gang leader can 1v1 an Ancient Black Dragon or a Cornugon, for example, which is kind of wild.

>>96512846
the city wasn't this out of place in PF1e
there were high level characters there but they were like an archwizard and stuff like that, not a random mobster

if you really need a lv 17 encounter for a crime lord type character, first off, that crime lord has to be the single prince of crime of the city, and secondly don't make the lv 17 that crime lord, make the lv 17 a higher devil he/she managed to get into a contract that benefited them instead of the devil

and have that one act as the muscle

>>96509561
>So what?
Because almost nothing else in the rest of the world can even hit her, let alone be a threat to her.

For a leader of a big mafia in a big city, that's retarded unless they are secretly a powerful creature.

>>96513607
and even if they were like a retired adventurer or something like that, they wouldn't fight with a war razor, you'd face them digging some kind of legendary sword out of a chest

>>96509226
Retard.

>>96509236
Players can reach level 17, so other characters can too.

>>96509323
Gp = Xp, this shit isn't rocket science dude

>>96512162
Games are defined by their rules. If you aren't trying to make good decisions, you're not roleplaying.

>>96512846
Why do you assume that high level stuff is rare?

>>96513721
and players can't reach lv 17 by robbing lv 1 commoners

>>96513577
nope, every crime lord can be as high level as you want.

>>96513741
yeah they can

>>96512078
If you are playing published adventures then your GM is nerfing shit hard.

The core design around encounters in published stuff assumes the following criteria are true
>The party consists of at the minimum 3 and the maximum 5 adventurers with 4 being the standard
>All PCs are fully healed and have all spells ready and resource pools full
>All PCs are optimized for their role

That's not pulling something out of my ass, that is legitimately the design philosophy behind every fucking encounter and it shows hard in published games. On one hand, I can kinda respect Paizo for assuming their target audience is nothing but min-maxing retards and building their game around things that please that audience. On the other hand, if you do not play that way, you should avoid published adventures like the plague and have to be mindful when building encounters because following official GM advice is gonna wipe your party of misfit chuckle-fucks.

>>96513577
>there were high level characters there but they were like an archwizard and stuff like that, not a random mobster
That makes more sense.

>>96513736
Because that implies that normal people would also need to either be extremely high level across the setting, which I'm pretty sure is not the case.
Also, half of the bestiary wouldn't exist since high level creatures would be out and about killing everything.
Unless there's a specific siloed place everybody goes to grind experience which would be hilarious and would come with its own insane implications.
Don't get me wrong, I can handwave it just fine and the existence of a lvl 17 gang leader with a razor wouldn't make me not want to play the game, but all the explanations so far paint a pretty disjointed and hilarious picture.
Why doesn't that gang leader take her lot and move to a nearby city with a lower average power level and just take it over? Is the local lvl 17 guard keeping them to that specific city in order to not let them run amok? Or is the average level of the setting 15+?
Etc etc.
These implications are even funnier in a system like PF2e where a 3 lvl difference means that the higher level creature can massacre a whole team of lower level ones.
Were it a system with flatter math, maybe it wouldn't be so egregious.
I guess you could always assume that Proficiency Without Level rule?
Of course, even that approach comes with funny implications such as the average goblin not being THAT much less powerful than the average dragon and such, but that's another conversation I think.

>>96514930
didn't read lol

>>96509238
>Along with outright banning the vast majority of the
NTA but I know that feel, bro.
>ban all shit from 5e
>now you have 3.x ed
>ban all shit from 3.x ed
>now you have 2e
>ban all shit from 2e
>now you have 1e
>ban all shit from 1e
>now you have OD&D
>ban all shit from OD&D
>now you have D&D White box/Basic D&D
This is ladder to Satan's Kingdom. Watch out!

>>96506591
Haven't played PF2e in years but from what I gathered you can't do as many broken munchkin builds consequence free as PF1e

>>96514930
>his games have levels
yikes!

>>96508978
>Some gangster is on par with the lady of pain
>The city guard is on par with a frog
Cool.

>>96508130
remember OP, you asked.

>>96506591
It's a game system that is more interested in telling you what you can't do rather than what you can do. It also lack around 80% of the options of PF1e.

Nothing mixes and matches, nothing interacts, builds are as linear as 5e.

>>96516067
Nah.

>>96514930
>Why doesn't that gang leader take her lot and move to a nearby city with a lower average power level and just take it over?
Because that means uprooting her already established criminal activities, and leaving herself open to becoming a target for another nation and the other gangs in the city. You idiots are thinking she knows her own level and should act accordingly, thinking on a meta level that they wouldn't do.

She was born and raised in Absalom, its her home. Why would she leave her home for some backwater village to rule over it when she could continue fleecing the rich and powerful adventurers and cults that flock to her home city? She wants riches, not slaves to her will. You arent considering her own motives and how she would think, youre only obsessed with the fact she's level 17 and thinking about how your own PC at that level would do that.

>Also, half of the bestiary wouldn't exist since high level creatures would be out and about killing everything.
The world is filled with terrible monsters of all kinds of levels and the world is also fecund with life. You are thinking this is just like Earth with more monsters, but it isn't. Also, most of the high-level monsters are either on other planes, trapped in dungeons (which are manifestations of a demon lords power), or doing their own thing. There is no reason why they would be out killing everything unless you think all these terrible monsters are mindless killing machines, but at that point I can consider your own setting shit.

>>96506566 (OP)
So there's art of her getting fucked, right?

>>96513732
Ah yes real roleplaying is when you spend 15 minutes masturbating over the 18 feats you took too use in a round of combat. Grow up and play a wargame already.

>>96517340
Indeed
https://rule34.xxx/index.php?page=post&s=list&tags=leora_%28kibix1%29

>>96514930
Oh to add to the absolute clusterfuck. So let's say your lower level adventure is in this same city. But these super high level people and creatures should still be there... right? Well, no not really. She doesn't exist until the right book for that adventure comes up. Everything is bound by levels. From what the players deal with, to the items they have access to.

Bullshit tactical wargame masquerading as an RPG.

>>96515147
What I mean is that I don't run in a world where you can play a full-blooded orc, or a goblin. Or a fucking potted plant person. All of which are not only [Common] in PF2e, they're in the core rulebooks.

>>96517039
>Also, most of the high-level monsters are either on other planes, trapped in dungeons (which are manifestations of a demon lords power), or doing their own thing.
Or you know, fleecing commoners in Absalom, remember she is as powerful as creatures you just said HAD to be locked away for the world to make sense

>>96515382
yikes imagining being prejudiced against playing with power

>>96518916
Adding level to proficiency just fucking shatters any semblance of verisimilitude. That gangster should be, at most, Level 10. A threat that the heroes must deal with while they are still dealing with mortal concerns and not things of a planar or outsider nature.

>>96506566 (OP)
>PF
>Good in any regard.

>>96519000
problem is that PF2e adds level to EVERYTHING
so level ends up being the single most defining stat, and grog the barbarian is still more eloquent than the grand vizier because he's 5 levels higher

>>96519041
There's a variant rule buried in the GMG where you remove that entirely, but it's poorly done. Lacking the advice needed on how to change feats or actions that lean heavy on a players rolls having such a massive, continuously growing bonus added onto everything. Medicine is the one that stands out the most of course.

Also it doesn't make it outright clear that you should be removing level as a bonus for enemies and npcs too. Without that, someone on par with their level is a devastating threat.

>>96519041
stats not mattering enough in f20 games has been a trend in the last few years other than like uhhhh cosmere ( which is pretty unplayable)

>>96519247
PF2e is just the worst about it
Level is the most important thing about a character, Class the second most important thing
The math flat out tells you you need a max stat in your class's primary stat or your character is non functional so every single character of a class has pretty much the same stat spread

class being important is downright jarring because there's no multiclassing, if you decide to be a rogue at lv 1 you're one at lv 20

and then it makes an even more baffling decision to link initiative directly to perception and directly to social perception as well, and make all of it based purely on class how good you are at it, and balanced purely around what classes should get high initiative

so you end up with fighters being better at reading social situations than clerics and better at perception than monks

>>96519292
>link initiative directly to perception
Technically that's just the baseline, generally you're supposed to roll initiative with what you were doing as a fight broke out. Anyone trying to sneak around in exploration is obvious, but the same applies for a social check. Things go badly (and you don't know it immediately) that's your roll for the combat.

Now how many GMs actually do this... that's the problem in the end. Though that does bring a point of one thing I do like about PF2e. Social checks, knowledge checks, stealth checks, Perception checks. All secret rolls, where the player doesn't know the result.

>>96518916
>Or you know, fleecing commoners in Absalom
Why would she target small time people with little money or treasure? All the money is in targeting adventurers (who are not rare in the setting) and cult leaders and cultists who have come to try their hand at becoming a real god via the Starstone Cathedral. Not to mention various dignitaries and bureaucrats, merchants from across the realms, and others seeking fame, fortune, or revelry.

This isn't some medieval city but a post renaissance realm of innovation, magic, and adventure alongside once being the home to a literal god.

And I didn't say they were locked away, they naturally reside elsewhere. For gods sake, there are literal kaiju that walk the world. To become a king of the Norse lands requires literally slaying a powerful dragon-type creature (a linnorm), and there are currently 5 such rulers. This isn't a world of weak commoners.

Your average crime kingpin, a generic version, is level 12. Thats only 5 levels lower than Sad Liza, who lives in a region full of high level individuals. A flamboyant thief, the type of celebrity thief known to steal interesting and rare items, is level 15. A generic hunter, who kills game for a village, is fucking level 7. A blackbelt martial artist is level 12, while a Grandmaster is 17. Your average Court Jester is level 10.

This is a high powered world.

>>96519292
>fighters being better at reading social situations than clerics and better at perception than monks
Would you rather the inverse with how 3.5 and PF1e did it, where fighters were shit at most skills thanks to limited skill points?

>>96519434
>Thats only 5 levels lower than Sad Liza
In PF2e 5 levels means she could fight and army of a thousand crime lords and never break a sweat

also she could in fact go up north and become king of the Norse because she could defeat a linnorm with her hand tied behind her back

seriously none of this makes sense

>>96519415
No I meant as how initiative, perception and sense motive are all automatically tied in proficiency to your class, which is idiotic

>>96519434
>Would you rather the inverse with how 3.5 and PF1e did it, where fighters were shit at most skills thanks to limited skill points?
Why is it one or the other?
Also PF1e had several options for fighters to get more skill points

And that's the big massive red glaring issue with PF2e: it's impossible to become good at something unless your class allows it

Seriously though you see no issues with it being made flat out impossible for a monk to be more observant than a fighter?

>>96519488
>which is idiotic
Oh, duh. Yeah the fact that some classes just will always be better at reading people on top of everything else is retarded. But these are also the same people that thought giving a class a permanent +2 to hit over everyone else in a game that heavily favors rolling 10-over the TN for crits was a good idea.

>>96519498
the even more retarded part is that they balanced this purely around the combat aspect only
so classes that are meant to be good at combat are also good at reading people

>>96517892
Yep, you lost the argument.

>>96506566 (OP)
>only 2 goblins posted
shut it down, the stealth thread didn't work.

>>96506566 (OP)
Fantasy Craft > > > > > All other D&D and D&D Adjacent Systems

>>96520402
Well the thread attempted to paint the system where the goblins are horrific football-headed monstrosities with a mouth full of nothing but teeth as the best out there. Of course there wasn't much horny-posting.

Dragonbane is the only game for me. Okay OSE can come too.

>>96520406
I think I have a PDF of that somewhere but I never read it.
What's it like? A 3.5e heartbreaker?

>>96506566 (OP)
>shit < feces < excrement < crap

GURPS > allat

>>96519041
Frankly I've never understood why modern games do the whole proficiency thing instead of just having normal skill levels like 3.5 / 1e / gurps / etc. It's like they set out to solve a problem that doesn't exist at all, skills have always worked fine in my experience.

The only meaningful decision is whether to max a skill or invest nothing in it, which is functionally identical to proficiency.

>>96521592
that's only true for opposed skills
skills with set DC's can do fine with partial investment
even opposed skills don't necessarily need maximum investment, if enemies don't invest fully in the opposed skill either

>>96521592
Not that anon, but not really, at least not necessarily.
Different skills have different levels of usability with partial investment, at least in 3.5e, no idea about PF1e.
Between requirements, synergy bonuses, and what the character is meant to do, my current character's skills are all over the place.

>>96521615
PF1e has no synergy bonuses except for a legacy one between acrobatics and fighting defensively, but a fair number of feats require certain level of skill investment, various skills have set DC's for various actions so if you're only trying to meet those DC's you're fine with partial investment

due to how PF1e does class skills a lot of people will also invest a single point into a skill, get the +3 bonus from it being a class skill (replaces the 4x skill points at lv 1 from 3.5) and have it counted as a trained skill and just leave it at that

>>96521633
>and have it counted as a trained skill and just leave it at that
Oh yeah, there's that too. Some skills are worth having even one point into just so that you can even attempt it.
My guy over here >>96521615 has 1 point in a few skills because he has a spell that can give him a bonus to a single skill check roll. And I don't usually have to make more than one K:Arcana or K:Planes check per day anyway.
He also has a skill trick that gives him a bonus to those for some specific uses, so there's that too.
It's a lot of levers and knobs you can tune, so there's lots of situations where having more or less invested in several skills even if you aren't maxing that skill out can work.

>>96521664
>My guy over here >>96521615 has 1 point in a few skills because he has a spell that can give him a bonus to a single skill check roll.
I hate this too. I think I hate
>single point gives you proficiency and is as good as 10 points in some situations
more than what just having proficiency and that's it.

>>96521664
PF1e doesn't have skill tricks directly but it does have, unlocked by a feat though, several advanced options that unlock at 5-10-15-20 points invested

that said I do think this is a half baked attempt, and overall PF1e is a lot less dynamic when it comes to skills than 3.5 (though at the same time it condenses a fair number of skills and is generally a lot more generous with skill points, 3.5 was a lot of famine in regards to that)
But it's closer to 3.5 than it is to 2e and there's still a good amount of fine tuning

>>96521683
>that said I do think this is a half baked attempt, and overall PF1e is a lot less dynamic when it comes to skills than 3.5 (though at the same time it condenses a fair number of skills and is generally a lot more generous with skill points, 3.5 was a lot of famine in regards to that)
It's one of those lateral moves rather than an upgrade that's been mentioned in the thread a couple times I guess.

>>96521680
>I hate this too. I think I hate
>more than what just having proficiency and that's it.
Fair enough. I like that that's another dimension you can fuck around with.
All in all, I'm having great fun playing 3.5e.
Between sessions, the group spends as much time discussing the fiction of the world as we do discussing mechanics. It's the first group I feel like I'm engaging with both aspects of a TTRPG, the roleplay and the mechanical/rules game part.
It's quite refreshing.

>>96521700
You can do that with literally any system. People do it with pure wargames. I'll never understand this argument(?)

>>96521592
If you're a wizard in pf1 you might put one point in something like knowledge (nobility) so you can make a check and succeed with your INT and class skill bonuses if it ever does come up, but I'm being pedantic.

>>96521373
yeah its 50% 3.5 and 50% mutants and mastermind. If you hate specific cool things and class systems its very good system.

>>96522187
>its 50% 3.5 and 50% mutants and mastermind
Interesting

>>96521615
You don't understand the reasoning. It's not about DCs, it's about opportunity cost.

>>96521615
Good job, you bricked your character.

>>96521607
Wrong in every possible way.

>>96522284
this post is wrong in every possible way

Nah.

>>96521456
You have no idea how much most people disliked 3.5's skill point beancounting.

>>96522799
Never heard any complaints about it, personally. Skill levels are pretty ubiquitous in the kinds of games I play. Even Fate has skill levels (albeit they work a bit differently because you don't get to increase them nearly as often).

The only things I don't like typically, are skill dipping, where you just invest 1 point and that's it, and also subskills are hard to deal with because the more skills you add, the less powerful your skill points are. I have no idea how to solve that last one, however.

>>96522871
have large skills which you invest points in directly, and then each of those large skills has a series of sub-skills which you can invest specific sub-skill points into to get a bonus on top of the large skill?

Why have subskill at all when a handful of skills can cover everything?

>>96522274
Can you expound on that, please?
Opportunity cost of what? Skill points have two uses, requirements, and passing skill check DCs, right?

>>96522276
How so?
The only thing I can think about is the low spellcraft score that could fuck me over if we ever make it to epic levels, I guess.

>>96522799
It was less the point-by-point skill ranks I hated, and more the other shit, like cross-class skill rules, some classes getting a mere 2+INT mod skill points, and basic fucking actions being split into distinct individual skills like Jump.

>>96524411
a solution to class skills and low skill points might have been to give everyone higher amount of baseline skill points, and change class skills to be a set of skills you could spend class-specific points on

>>96522799
I always used the 4 points per level at first level as a way to get cross class trained in my entire skill list, then I would pick a few core skills to max

These days I prefer 13th age nearly removing skills. Skills were always a vestigal system meant to compete with glorantha's variants over time. Outside of trapfinding I think fantasy games run better with participative skill encounters and implicit class skill lists.

>>96524043
It's pretty simple. 12 ranks in one skill is more useful than 4 ranks in three skills. Two characters with two different skills maxed is more useful than two characters with the same skills maxed. The opportunity cost of removing 1 rank from a maxed skill to buy 1 rank in a shit skill is never worth it. When you're actually competent at the game, you know that there are only two conditions for any particular character statistic : either you're on the RNG, or you're not. The goal for any particular statistic, therefore, is to get it as high as possible so that you automatically succeed at all rolls on a 1. Any resource investment that isn't moving you towards that goal is a waste.

>>96524928
this is assuming that every single skill check DC automatically increases with level, which they don't
there's also the assumption you make that you will have one person fully invested in every skill in the game which is simply never going to happen
and of course, you're treating a roleplaying game purely as a mathematical puzzle to solve, when in fact there's plenty of roleplaying potential to be had from a partially invested skill

take for example knowledge geography, if you're just intended to have general knowledge and nobody else picked it, there's absolutely no reason to max it out, the DC to get general info on it doesn't increase with level

>>96506566 (OP)
5e is pretty good but I’m looking into trying basic roleplaying universal game engine.
Now I must address your goblin image.
Would.

>>96525048
Just all the skill checks that actually matter.

>>96525255
UMD only needs a flat DC of 20 to use wands

Right, which means you need a modifier of at least +19 to never fail. Thanks for agreeing with me, RETARD

>>96525392
and with a masterwork item you can achieve that with good enough CHA at lv 8 and never have to put another point in it again

you can also get by with less points than that if you don't intend to use it in combat and only for utility spells so you can try again

>>96521373
Imagine if 3.5 were less broken in all the usual ways, but instead broken in new, exciting, really really fun ways.

>>96525422
Retard lol

>>96521373
it's shit

>>96506566 (OP)
Is Sword World any good? Apparently it's getting an official English version soon-ish.

>>96525434
so FFd20?

FFd20 may be a silly fan game but its definitly better than Pathfinder 1e. Somehow. Motherfuckin Blitzbowl is exactly what it sounds like. Bangaa Blockers with injury tables. Triple Triad someday.

>>96525602
Didn't XIV get its own TRPG system a little while back?

>>96525627
I'm sure there are a dozen homebrews. Gunbreaker is pretty kino in FFd20. Fullattack, bonus attacks, trigger trigger multiple times and finish with blasting zone or something. Big boy damage on a tanky class with aurora lmao

>>96525651
Sounds about right, three DPS in a trenchcoat and all that.

>stacking spell storing weapons with spell combat quick cast and doing gish glitches
>in pathfinder , 5e and ffd20
war. war never changes

>he doesn't know how to optimize
typical.

>>96525602
Is there a reason you're trying to bring up FFd20 all over the board?

>>96526013
Yeah, I'm being paid to advertise it. Buy the game or I'll fucking kill you.

>>96526087
I prefer death

>>96526087
the game is not for sale lmao

>>96526013
building hype for my campaign obviously. JUST WAITING ON GAME FINDER GENERAL TOPKEK

>>96528695
Yes it is retard

>>96506591
They made a +1 scaling to everything system because most of their writers are retards who don't even play the game. Just look at every shitty bloat spell or halfwit game mechanic in 1e. Clearly written by someone who never played a single game in their life. Now with this more simplified system they should theoretically have less of this crap as the writers who don't play the game or care enough to even look shit up should have an easier time.
Players are hating on it because it is a simplified system. I don't particularly care enough to even hate though.

>>96525627
>>96525651
There is an official FFXIV game too, like published by squenix and the whole shebang. Beyond the obvious theming, it feels kinda 5Eish but is hyperfocused on the JTRPG style of serial single session oneshots.
https://www.square-enix-shop.com/ffxivttrpg/en/

>>96524411
>>96524694
Even that isn't the real problem. While all this superficial shit is tedious it's not really critical. The real problem is that skills don't go from 1 to 20, no, they fucking go from 1 to 80+ if you actually invest into them. Where you need to gather all the bonuses to actually raise them that high. And high end skill uses, plus epic, actually do need your skill to be that high to work. Which is fucking bullshit.

That was one of the main problems with 3.5 - instead of expanding the core system carefully they would split the bonuses needed to operate at full over 3-5 different parts of the system and then you will need to hunt them down.