Thread 96509907

>>96509907 (OP)
>GM is prepping "plots"

>>96509907 (OP)
GM is prepping

>>96509907 (OP)
>GM is

>>96509907 (OP)
If you guys are going into a politically complicated situation I'm gunna have notes.

Also little mini-stories for whatever is going on in an area the party is exploring tend to go over well with my group, even if they don't necessarily tie into the major plot.

>prep laundry list of details about upcoming session
>when players encounter well thought out scenarios their brains fizzle out and they just brute force through

>prep 1-2 sentences for next session
>players suddenly want tons of details and are super proactive

>>96511094
Ngl playing with your buddies in a bunker sounds mad comfy, even if it is the end of the world.

>>96511234
It really does

>>96509907 (OP)
>the plot is actually a metaphor for how you didn't take out the garbage like she asked
How do you navigate this?

>>96509937
>GM is "prepping"

So for GMs who make their own settings. What do you do for your "prepping"

>>96511409
>What do you do for your "prepping"
I horde cans of food and water filters and ammo.

>>96509907 (OP)
Sounds like he isn't a GM then.
Any game will have its story intrinsic to how players face its challenges and meet its goals.

>>96511409
Masturbate.

>>96510004
>GM

Sometimes I feel like people are willfully obtuse and are actively choosing to get angry at synonyms for 'scenario.'
All this "don't prep plots!" horseshit is buoyed by egotist bloggers and people who would fail a remedial language arts class.

>>96511409
This >>96511527.
Whatever I last jerked off to before the session gets added to the world as the next horror for the players to encounter.

>>96512030
Wouldn't your players get sick of all the horrors just being gay dudes?

>>96511111
Re-heat the stuff they brute-forced through, just change names and places, they won't know. Shit, I ran the same cave for three groups, two with recurring players, they never knew.

>>96511409
I usually end each session without leaving many choices for the beggining of the next one. If you put them on a corridor to the next encounter, before calling the day, they get excited, and on the next session spend their energy on the encounter. Afterwards, they might want to explore, so I offer 3-5NPCs to interact, and if they ask for something I didn't prep, I put it behind some encounter I did prep, which buys me time.

>>96512245
They're gachi fans so they like it

>>96509907 (OP)
The GM telling you what they are going to do is the stupid part of this. Otherwise. Yes you retarded motherfucker, I make notes on what different factions will do in reaction to whatever bullshit you all plan to pull.

>>96509979
>Why I prep the GM, not my character

>>96511248
Honestly, a nice nuclear civil war in the US so we can just sit in a Rocky Mountain lodge near Denver to play Robots & Rangers is the best case scenario for 2028.

>>96512489
Fair enough, Carry on then.

>>96512283
Shit, sometimes you can just bring shit back wholesale. I had a game where the guy running just riffed on all his own notes and blended them together for an off the wall crossover campaign and it was a load of fun. I didn't understand like 80% of what was going on but I had a great time, and appreciated the callbacks I did catch.

>>96512885
Recurring "Team Rocket" type villains are also a great way to cover for planning mishaps.

>>96511755
nah

>run an enemy that messes with the meta of the game, e.g. messing with their notes and leaving clues in our groupchat
>they fucking love it and ask for more
>we do a month long buildup and a week of them solving puzzles while we're on vacation
>come back to the next session
>they ignore all of the puzzle solutions they worked on, throw their hands up and go kill a few ogres
i wanted to die

>>96511409
I don't. I know everything that exists in the world. Wherever the players decide to go, I imagine what's there, and describe it to them.

>>96511755
No, you're just bad at running games.

>>96512283
What do you mean? The world can't run out of things to experience. Why would I need to re use things?

>>96513782
When you said "brute force" I assumed they resolved the situation without getting acuainted with a large part of what you had planned. I meant if they didn't see something they can easily see it unfold for the first time elsewhere.

>>96511409
Go for a long night walk with a can of beer the night before, jot down whatever comes to the mildly buzzed brain as bullet points on a notepad. Aside from that maybe raid pinterest for NPC/environment art.

There is a certain kind of player that is always trying to do "what he's supposed to do", following some NPC advice to the letter as if the GM always use one NPC to show "where they should go". They take adventure hooks, they trust this or that NPC as "the GM's emissary trying to help us". This kind of player thinks doing anything else is waste of time or simply wrong. They don't want to be disruptive, they are really trying to respect the GM effort and be good. Maybe insecure players need the railroad.

This style of play can be both safe and boring.

Disruptive players are insufferable. But they do have this redeeming grace of acting their own will, and trying things to see what happen. These can be memorable stories, if the GM is well versed in improvisation, knows his world and knows the system he's running.

This style of play can be a mess, or epic.

Maybe its possible to go from one style to the other between sessions. Episodes of chaos within some structure.

>>96509907 (OP)

Plans are useless, but planning is indispensable.

>>96513857
what do you mean? there are an infinite number of things the players are missing at any given time by virtue of not being everywhere in the world. there's nothing bad about that.

>>96513940
how is trying things disruptive?

>>96512885
>I didn't understand like 80% of what was going on but I had a great time
You had fun with your friends chortling at epic meme references, you did not play a ttrpg

>>96515158
that's what tabletop games are dumbass

>>96515158
>Internet autist tries to "no true scottsman" someone else's campaign

And quite successfully at that.

>>96511755
Any game will have its scenario intrinsic to how players face its challenges and meet its goals.

>>96515484
I read books or comics, or watch films or shows when I want stories.

>>96515686
Yes, anon. I already understood that you do things other than play games.

lol seething storyshitter

I'm just giving them the starter town from Westworld and change the decor, lighting, and names as necessary.

>>96515843
>seething playoid

lol seething storyshitter

Why doesn't your DM know what you're planning on doing so that he can prepare it ahead of time?

>>96513940
>Disruptive players are insufferable. But they do have this redeeming grace of acting their own will
The problem is it's always with malice. Disruptive players are just on an ego trip and nothing more. They see every game as a railroad, every hook as a plot, and every situation as one where the GM is waiting to say "Gotcha!"

>>96513940
My only thing with chaotic players is when a VTT is involved. My in person games I dont have to worry about flashy visuals tokens and the like. And I can roll with the punches easily. But when people change their mind on a VTT thats a lot of effort not necessarily wasted but it certainly is demoralizing.

And id wind back on having so many props but Im afraid my players wouldn't be nearly as engaged in a VTT game if I dont.

>preparing stories
>preparing plots
>preparing scenarios
>preparing setpieces
>preparing encounters
No. I am preparing puzzle boxes.

>>96516615
And they're right, of course.

>nogames seething thread
lol, I'm sure one day you'll play a game instead of shitposting on 4chan.

>>96516750
Earthbound? What kind of campaign was this?

>>96515028
>there's nothing bad about that.
Not anywhere near my point, I just meant you can save prep time by recycling content they've obliviously skipped.

>>96514000
5E, ewwwwww.

>>96519942
played more than you've played any game gaylord

>>96518625
Right, and my point is that that makes no sense. There isn't content to recycle. There things the players experience are dependent on where they go in the world, and when.

>>96515034
'Trying things' isn't inherently disruptive but disruptive players are the sort of people who are 'trying' things just to stir the pot because their attention span has run out. Or they get laser focused on a random tangent that obviously doesn't go anywhere but they think is funny.
>t. the kobold turned their hands into lead with a wand backfire and made it the party's problem for almost an hour IRL

>>96520022
Why did you make that a possibility in the game if you didn't want it to happen?

>>96520050
I was a member of the aforementioned party.

>>96519977
it really depends on what those things are.
If you had a cool item, or an NPC based on a shared friend, or a cool building you saw on a vacation, tons of things can be re used without cheapening the feeling of the world. It doesn't mean you have a single idea and keep building the tracks in fron of the players hoping they don't realize it's a railroad, you just have the things you like.

>>96520050
>Why did you make that a possibility in the game
what do you mean?
>stir the top
>grab attention
>focusing on a tangent
>not letting other people move on
how are you making those things more or less possible in a game?

>>96520095
>how are you making those things more or less possible in a game?
by... deciding to not let them happen? the GM has control over everything anon.

>>96514000
planning is also useless, what you are referring to is preparation.
>trips
nice

>>96520130
you can ask them to stop, but you can't control disruptive players in game

>>96514000
>consumig

>>96520442
Everything he's using is repurposed, rather than some overpriced slop that costs too much because it's branded to be for "gaming".

How does one go about prepping a good sandbox then if plots are off the table?

>>96520456
but anon, sandbox play is all about having dozens of plots hanging. Otherwise it's an empty void, anything that gives the setting personality is a potential plot.

>create town1 and adventure-location1 with the help of random tables
>session 1, party goes to adventure-location1, 1 puzzle, 2 combats, treasure
>select one of the players, create town2 and adventure-location2 based on their character with the help of random tables
>session 2 starts with the party finding a clue about town2/adventure-location2 in the treasure from session 1
>party travels to town2
>rinse and repeat

>>96520456
Having plots isn't a bad thing, writing up your railroad in advance with no regards to player decisions is. Decide what will happen if the players don't do anything then adapt according to what they do.

>>96521399
Sadly that's not the /tg/ strawman position, anon. You have to basically be Chat GPT and just invent a trillion different adventure hooks on the fly with no prep whatsoever that are all equally sturdy in potential for challenge and reward to cater to whatever the players decide, or you're a filthy dictatorial railroader who has no business being a GM. Even if they all decide to just sit in the tavern, keep drinking beer, and never once set foot out on an adventure of their own accord.

Like I do get it, it's important to be flexible and give players the adventure they want if they show initiative and have a goal they want to achieve. But there are plenty that don't have initiative and somehow expect the GM to supply their motivation and goal FOR them once game time starts. It gets a mite frustrating when you respect their wishes to not force them into a pre-planned story but they just stare at you blankly when you take off the training wheels and ask what they want to achieve, even after giving suggestions on potential pursuits and ventures they can pick from.

>>96520077
No. I don't put things in the game.
Everything that exists in the world evolved there naturally or was built / invented by the inhabitants.

>>96520095
He was obviously specifically referring to putting a wand in the game that can turn shit to lead when it backfires. How could you possibly not get that from context?

>>96520456
What do you mean? All you have to do is create a world. The personalities and goals of the beings that evolve in it will do the rest.

>>96521450
No. You don't write adventure hooks. Stop thinking about it like it's a story.

>>96511409
I've only ever ran my own settings, and never once used a pre made adventure of any kind.

For prepping sessions I find and or edit any art I need for it, I get a general idea of where they're going to go, what characters they're going to see, and what stuff they're going to do, etc, and make arrangements for all that.

>>96521582
We may be on different ideas of what an "adventure hook" is, because I use it to refer to barebones "There's a bandit gang in the area, there's a large payment incentive for their capture or kill", "monsters have been spotted in the area, the local mayor would pay a reward for brave souls to clear them down" or "Someone is willing to trade you a treasure map for a quick favor" kind of questlines, not anything bigger.

>>96515692
I play games when I want games.
The only story that applies to actual games is what's intrinsic to how players face the game's challenges and meet their goals.

>reverse image search other player's ref sheet of their shapeshifter character in monster form
>find furaffinity account

>>96521645
>Tell me you've never played a ttrpg without telling me.
Good one.

>>96520450
>rather than some overpriced slop
I see at least 4 D&D 5e books in that picture.

>>96521399
Or, you could simply ask them what they plan to do in the next session and then prep it.

>>96518600
Troika campaign using the Suburbia setting thats currently ongoing. Been very fun and just had our first death (the overweight office worker)

They're going to the Astral Plane to get him back.

>>96521399
>>96522065
Yeah man. Just ask players what bed time story they want you to read, then spoon-feed them exactly the content they seek. After all, as a GM your job is to tuck people in at night. You don't get to write plots or stories! Who the hell said GMs should find enjoyment in the games they run?

>>96515677
The setting and challenges are the scenario, you illiterate turd.

>>96521624
No quest lines, no hooks. Just a world that's as real as ours.

>>96521781
based

>>96522121
Exactly. The GM doesn't write stories, he runs games.

>>96522294
>first day at the job
>what do I do?
>this is the real world, anon, you have to decide what you're gonna do
>what does this company do?
>do? that'd be railroading

Yep, found the story shitter.

>>96522331
even in your strawman you couldn't imagine not being subject to authority lmaooooooooo

>>96522340
are characters not subject to authority?

>>96512030
one of the major element of my setting is taken from porn(god's corpse crash landed into the mortal planes)

>>96522294
>GM isn't allowed to tell stories
>But must build and manage an entire planet for the entertainment of others
The entitlement is incomprehensible. Luckily? The people who say this kinda nonsense have never played a game.

>>96522299
He's into vore and male pregnancy

>>96511409
I mostly just make up NPCs and try to give them vague motivations, I also draw maps and make towns and dungeons. My players usually fixate on random things so I just follow along and let them go to wherever is exciting for them. I try to drop interesting villains and story beats but they are more interested in exploring the map and dungeon crawling. Which is more fun anyway. It is comical how many times they’ve let cities burn just because they want to go to the next place.

>>96522294
>no quests
>no hooks
>Just a world that's as real as ours

Fucking lol. You'd be the first to bitch that the GM isn't doing jack, despite demanding the GM do nothing at all to interfere with whatever you want to do


>"You exist now. What do you do?"
>"I dunno, what is there TO do?"
>"This is the real world, Timmy, I'm not going to tell you to do shit"
>"You're a bad DM, there's no quests or anything to do, I thought this was a game"
>"Real Life Isn't A Game, Timmy :^)"

>>96519977
>>96521560
God you're a retarded midwit.

Go prep your stupid bullshit that will never see the light of day in a game.

>>96522349
Obviously not retard

>>96522413
lol mad cuz bad

>>96522536
Swing and a miss.

>>96522601
Cope.

>>96522647
Yes, you did, Mr. "never played a game"

>>96522668
Swing and a miss.

>>96522686
Cope

>>96521567
The wand turning their hands to lead was just some random hazard because they were trying to use a magic impliment they didn't know how to. That's 'trying stuff,' which is fine. The player having their PC sperg out for an hour and refusing to end the bit until we had knocked said PC unconscious was the problem.

>>96522807
What do you mean by "end the bit"? Was he capable of reversing the change?

>>96521645
>is what's intrinsic to how players face the game's challenges and meet their goals.
that's a plot
Moby Dick is mostly about working at the docks. Three act linear plots are slop used to maximize audiences, not the gold standard.

>>96522121
Could you describe your ideal form of the game? You seem to be mostly just complaining and strawmanning what other people like.

>>96523324
The GM loosely plans out an adventure including some challenges and obstacles and set pieces, as well as a motivation for the players and an intended outcome. Then starts the players off and see where it goes from there.

You know: like literally every single adventure ever published for any RPG. That have all those stories that OSR idiots are so terrified of.

>>96523041
No, but he prevented things from moving on for over an hour because he wanted to roleplay out tardwrangling him instead of actually moving towards a solution.

>>96523474
Okay, I agree with you, but I would describe that as planning out the plot for the session. It seems we are using different terms to describe the same thing.

>>96523962
Happens a lot on the internet. Most anons would be indifferent if the GM said they were preparing a series of challenges for the session, but calling it a "plot" due to being just a sequence of different events the players will either overcome or circumvent and they immediately break down in anger about how they "don't want a story, just a game" despite effectively being the same thing.

I'm new to DMing. What is the guy in question doing wrong itt?

>>96524117
this >>96524095
talking about plot makes people think players will be moved along a linear pre-scripted story.
It's one of those things that is not fun, and through repetition and memes ended up being rage fuel for some randos that hate with all their souls the villain they invented in their heads.

>>96522294
There are quests and plot hooks IRL though you dumbfuck

>>96523474
>plans
Big no-no
>an adventure
That's plot
>some challenges and obstacles
That's plot too
>set pieces
that's actually plot, no memes
>motivation for the players
Eh yikes that's plot
>an intended outcome
Unbelievably plot

>>96525948
>spoiler
not always, a set piece could be a mechanic for a fight or a cool looking building to climb.

>>96523474
No. The GM creates the world.

>>96524095
The GM doesn't prepare a series of challenges because he doesn't know where the players will decide to go, nor what they will decide to interact with.

>>96524222
Nope, very real villain, just look at the retards in this thread.

>>96526331
You didn't contradict what he just said. You're welcome to explain how you did, but you're not going to.

>>96526336
Describe the GM not knowing what the players are going to do as a win for the GM and the players, rather than a communication issue.

>Hey everyone glad we could all make it to the first session of this Curse of Strahd campaign. So you've all arrived in Barovia, what's the first thing you do?
>I leave.
>Leave? Like, leave the inn? The town?
>I leave Barovia, I want to adventure somewhere else
>But dude, the whole campaign is set here.
>Well make something else up for me
>The whole point is to go on the story through this region and-
>STOP RAILROADING ME STORYSHITTER LAZY GM WRITE A NOVEL IF ALL YOU WANT ME TO DO IS FOLLOW YOUR "PLOT" EXACTLY HOW IT'S WRITTEN

>>96524117
>I'm new to DMing. What is the guy in question doing wrong itt?
It's two spergs screaming at each other over semantics.

Writing a "Plot", which for the purposes of this post I will define as "a set of linear, inflexible, pre-determined narrative events and outcomes" is shit DMing. If the players go off of the rails that you've laid down then you either have to wing it (making your preparations worthless, plus if you're the kind of DM who "writes a plot" then you might not even be CAPABLE of this) or get them back on the rails and both of these options are awful.

It's not a TTRPG but ponder Fallout 3. At the end of the game you HAVE TO walk into the water purifier and die. Why? Because that's the Plot that Bethesda wrote. Muh alpha and omega. Muh waters of life. Muh parallels to dad. Et cetera. How did Bethesda deal with the fact that there are multiple radiation-immune companions who could just do it for you so you wouldn't have to die? Various themes on "lolno I'm not going in there for you; it's your destiny so go die already". That's a particularly egregious example of what a "Plot" looks like in this context but there are others. Imagine the party goes to meet a "Plot-necessary" NPC and things go bad and the party decides to just gank him instead? How do you deal with this? Do you make the NPC so powerful he can solo them or give him an army of goons? Do you give him some handwavium magic item that disarms all of them and prevents spellcasting? All of these options are awful, but if you NEED that NPC to survive to drive the "Plot" then that's what you're reduced to. Or you could just accept that and then set up the hook for the Plot as a quantum ogre - no matter what they do, they'll always find someone trying to set them up with the Plot.

>>96523181
>Three act linear plots are slop used to maximize audiences, not the gold standard
Good thing I wasn't talking about them, then.
Book structures belong in books, not games. Stories don't belong in games except as bits of lore in passing and told environmental aspects.

>>96522536
>quests
>>>/qst/

>>96522294
HE’S TOO BASED TO BE LEFT ALIVE!

>>96526336
If the players decide they're going to go down a dungeon, are THEY going to be the ones to decide in advance what kind of creatures are populating the dungeon, or are they going to tell the GM to do it? Dumb fuck.

>>96526944
Yes, you should go there if you're so scared of the concept of quests in your dungeon crawling tabletop games

>>96526339
Pretty sure anyone that breaks down in tears at the GM going "There's goblins to kill" needs their meds, yes

>>96526373
Swing and a miss.

>>96526381
cope story shitter :)

>>96527559
Retard.

>>96526930
Most normal people use plot in ttrpg as shorthand for "challenges I'm expecting the players to deal with". Players get bored and annoyed when you dryly ask player one what position he wants to move his piece to in order to attack enemy 1 on the map instead of asking Keldros how he wants to approach the scar-faced orc baring down on him. Players want to pretend to be brave knights fighting goblins, they don't want to be reminded they're just fat asthmatic losers rolling dice in someone's smelly basement. But going by all the trolls in this thread, the former would be "telling a story" and thus subjecting their players to a dreaded no-no.

>>96527569
Nope, you should go to v retarded nigger

>>96527629
I accept your inability to argue back beyond juvenile insults as a concession

>>96527631
Exactly, there can't be challenges you're expecting the players to face because you don't know what decisions they'll make ahead of time. Retard.

>>96527635
cope :)

>>96527637
So your idea the ideal game is the GM just sits there and waits for the players to say exactly what they want to do, when they want to do it, then just come up with an entire world literally everything on the spot by reading their mind?

>>96527642
You don't have to come up with the world on the spot. Everything in it is a logical consequences of the physical laws and circumstances regarding its formation, just like in real life. I already know everything that exists in any location in the world at any particular moment, based on the individual decisions of every living thing in the world.

>>96527649
>Everything in it is a logical consequences of the physical laws and circumstances regarding its formation, just like in real life
In other words, you've already created a plot before the game starts.

>>96527654
No, not at all. I didn't determine the events, so it's not a plot. A plot requires an author deciding what happens. You're not going to gotcha me.

>>96527649
>>96527664
post notes, larper

>>96527664
Hate to break it to you, but by the way things are phrased by retards in this thread, any form of prep work at all is a plot or a story.

>I didn't determine the events, so it's not a plot. A plot requires an author deciding what happens
By definition, you are. You've already laid out the groundwork ahead of time to determine what consequences will arise as a result of the players' actions beforehand. By that act, you've become the author who decided what happens in the story the players are creating. The moment you try to argue that the goblins logically won't follow the players solely because they beheaded their cheiftan because that's not how succession works in this particular tribe, then it's too late. You've "infringed" on their creativity. I'm sorry, you're just as stupid as the rest.

>>96527696
Again, you didn't read my post. When you generate a world in dwarf fortress, do you determine what happens in the legends history? (not a perfect analogy, since the simulation method use is much more detailed, but the basic idea is sound.)

>>96527715
In your analogy, you would be the player and the computer would be the GM, and since you've ultimately left it to the computer to decide what ends up as notable pieces of history and doesn't, then you've basically let the computer tell a story. Which by your logic means you have to actively reject it and write up your own in the coding to be a 'proper' game.

Though it figures that you're trying to equate a video game to a tabletop rpg.

No, it wouldn't, since I, the GM, have nothing to do with the world generation process. Which is why the analogy works. Just like the user offloads to Dwarf Fortress, I offload world generation to a similar sort of computation method.

>>96527810
It doesn't work. I'm sorry. You're a retard who's clearly never played a ttrpg with actual human beings.

It works, sorry story shitter.

>>96527821
And there it is. Yeah, I knew you were a dumb troll who didn't believe a word he said. Thanks for outing yourself.

Nope everything I said is correct, story shitter.

>>96527898
Already downvoted you, good day

Cope :)

>>96527715
>BUH BUH WHA ABOUT BIDYA GAEM
Swing and a miss. Go back >>>/v/

>>96525948
Correct: GMs prepare plots and stories. Your no-games obsession with OSR "theory" crafting has nothing to do with playing ttrpgs.

>>96527728
>Though it figures that you're trying to equate a video game to a tabletop rpg.
Well of course he has to use video game analogies, since he's clearly too autistic to have ever played an actual campaign with other real humans. Only an unfeeling machine could tolerate interacting with him.

>>96527559
They do not directly put the monsters there, but in the end they are the ones that choose to engage with them. If you choose to put something in there that is too retarded to take seriously, too challenging for them to defeat, or too easy and unrewarding to be worth their time, the players can leave. Creating the adventure is a compromise between fulfilling the desires of both the DM and the players. This is why knowing what they players want is helpful. You can put things in an encounter that you believe will interest them. Hence, planning out the general flow of the adventure ahead of time.

>>96521645
>>96526941
Anon that's a story structure. You've described a story.

>>96529158
That's the point being made, anon. That at the end of the day, the players are dependent on the GM being the ones to supply the majority of content for their game sessions to make meaningful decisions in, which for better or worse requires some degree of preparation so that it isn't solely players just rolling against statblocks in an empty void. Which is what so many anons seem to be adamantly against on /tg/, for some reason.

>>96529361
>what so many anons seem to be adamantly against on /tg/
Because they're contrarion no-games who only discuss this stuff in OSR wank-fests. Of course every single adventure and campaign has a story structure. Literally every single one, ever. It's literally impossible to find an example of a single published adventure that does not contain a story.

>>96529374
>published adventure
The earliest modules were just places and obstacles to put inside your world if you were feeling lazy, hence the name. Not even a hint of story in those.

>>96529394
>Not even a hint of story in those
Anon...

>>96529410
Background =/= story.

>>96529420
According to most anons here, background = story

>>96529437
That guy is a retard who hates sandboxes. Why else would he portray himself as a BroSR caricature?

>>96529394
>were just places and obstacles to put inside your world
That's flatly false. Go read one.

>>96511755
That's how every single one of these threads goes, yes.

>>96511755
cope story shitter

>>96529374
cope story shitter

>>96527971
Swing and a miss.

>>96529572
What the fuck? Guess how we all now know that you've never read one or anything about them.

>>96522340
You're gonna have a rough few years when you discover the laws of physics.

>gets owned so hard he has a fucking stroke
lmao

>>96510338
>little mini-stories for whatever is going on in an area the party is exploring tend to go over well with my group
"Whatever is going on" should be stuff that happened before PCs got there as well as NPCs having agendas and desires related to those stakes, so you know what they will do if the PCs don't interfere, and how they will react if PCs DO interfere.
It should NOT be predetermined plot that's going to happen regardless of what the PCs do.

>>96510004
based oracle chad

>>96533777
I think you're talking about the same thing he is, just worded differently.

Besides, frankly speaking, it's far more work to try and confine players onto a predetermined railroad plot instead of just letting them off the leash and going around poking everything they want to. Not only cause they understandably fight you every step of the way once they're aware of the fake boundaries, but because players tend to be good at suggesting ideas and shit unprompted that you can then roll into your game later.

>>96511387
GM "is"

>>96533777
I'd argue that a lot of "predetermined plot events" are just listening to what players say they want to do and assuming that they will actually do it.

>>96533777
You're literally just replacing the word "plan" with the word "know" and acting like it changes anything or makes your view superior.

>If players do X, I know Y will happen in response
>If players do X, I plan for Y to happen in respose

Same shit. You just arbitrarily decided to hate the word "plan".

>>96520456
>How does one go about prepping a good sandbox then if plots are off the table?
Draw a map.

Go through some books and find some classic/good adventure sites, like the Caverns of Thracia, the Caves of Chaos, the City State of the Invincible Overlord, a bunch of one page dungeons, etc, and dump them out on the map.

A sandbox is effectively a large number of interactables, in turn generally keyed to some hook delivery engine (hexcrawl exploration, rumor table, etc) to let them know how to get those things.

There are other player-open campaign structures (ex: Blades in the Dark, Pendragon), but these aren't generally considered sandboxes.

>>96524117
https://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/4147/roleplaying-games/dont-prep-plots

>>96527821
I'm pretty sure this posting style, of refusing to use >>, is intended to avoid janitors and/or get other people janny-smacked when they engage with you, since jannies are too lazy to do more than click the >>s. Thus, if you're talking about something on-topic and this guy successfully cuts the discussion to hide that, you get banned. Until this anon starts using quotes properly and regularly, do not respond to him further.

>>96535940
You give people like him too much credit by assuming he actually thinks that far ahead.
What's actually happening is he's autistic, and autistic people have these weird beliefs about what it means to win an argument. To them winning an argument isn't about actually making the most sense and disproving the other guy, it's about who can make the other person angrier while appearing to be calm themselves. It's about making short, low effort posts while the other person is trying to write actual arguments to make it look like they care way more about the argument than you. And above all else, it's about getting the last response, because if the other guy stops replying that definitely proves that he can't beat you and you won the argument.
He's refusing to quote other people because he thinks it will make you angry and make himself look like he doesn't care enough about the argument to reply (even no we can all see he still is, just in a really petty way). He's repeating the same stock phrase over and over again because he wants you to get tired of wasting your time with him that you stop replying, which in his mind will mean he won. You can see this kind of behavior all over 4chan.

>>96535940
It's also because they think that if they avoid a (You) tag, that somehow means that they've successfully gotten one over on you since you're not technically responding to them. It's a child's idea of winning an argument.

>>96529280
Yet storyfags aren't satisfied with that level of narrative, and need to write additional plots ahead of time, or need someone else to do that, or else they bitch and complain about board games or video games.
Weird how that works.

>>96536223
You'd shit your pants over "storyfags" if someone asked what the goal of the game was that night and the GM gave a "There's goblins in them thar hills to fight" single sentence response.

>>96536276
>Oh so you're already PLANNED that we're going to fight goblins huh?
>Uhh you could also talk to them if you wanted I guess?
>OH so I HAVE to go talk to your goblin OCs and hear their tragic backstory is that it? That's the next chapter of the book you're writing huh? When the heroes talk to the goblins?
>Fine jeez, uhh there's also some orcs in a cave
>And you've ALREADY decided we're going to go to the orcs instead? Wow what a great store you've written, I wish I had any agency in it!
>Ok fine what the fuck do you want to do then?
>How am I supposed to know? You're the GM, tell me what's in the world so I can make a decision!
>...there's some zombies in a crypt-
>STORYSHITTERRRRRRR!!!

>>96511111
Why the fuck is it like this everytime

>>96535940
If it makes you feel better let me tell you I once started copying him to see whay would happen, kinda QAing him, and I got banned for 2 days for spam. So he's not dancing around the ban, he just has a vpn or a wide dynamic IP.

>>96536470
At this point that's not even a strawman, anon, that is outright every single person that ever uses "storyshitter" unironically

>>96536495
The only inaccurate part of the story is that they would ever actually be playing in a real game.

>>96536276
No, that's what the storyfags cry is "systematic racism" or something like that, because "always evil races are boring on a narrative level".

>>96536532
Cause I'm totally sure that you play enough games to have that regularly occur rather than shitposting on 4chan /s

>>96536471
It doesn't happen every time, it's just that the times it does happen stand out much more in your memory than the times you prepared the appropriate amount and everything went fine.

>>96536071
The cool thing is for kids like him that use repetitive phrases, they can easily be added to a filter list so you never have to see them.

I believe in the player's right to choose where the PC is going inside the boundaries of the milieu GM has prepared. But the player must choose the direction after an adventure session so the GM can prepare for the next one.

>>96509907 (OP)
Frenzied Flame?

>>96511409
I do vtt, so I import tokens for npcs and maps and set up all the dynamic lighting.
Import/make items
basically I insert all the stuff that seems like either the obvious or most likely things they'll do.
Then I have a wordpad doc of notes; Npc profiles, If they do X then Y stuff, plot hooks etc

People aren't that hard to predict if you're playing with people that behave consistently and want to "be heroic".

>>96535940
This troll has been doing this shit for a decade and you dumb fucks still fucking feed him (you)s.

>>96511409
Throughout the week I listen to the music I plan on using during the campaign for a particular encounter with the NPC or area
90% of my ideas come to me in the car

None of you fucking retards play or run games
This board is just a bunch of no life faggots that want a place to vomit their tabletop meta-discussion based on the garbage they read on twitter and the opinions of streamers

Critical Role and Covid were the two worst things to ever happen to tabletop

>>96536471
the universe is out to get us GMs

>>96522294
Look, some people don't like story driven, and that's fine, but what you just said is completely fucking retarded regardless of how you play and I hope you are baiting.

96535940 lol you're so fucking mad

>>96535093
You didn't read anything he said.

>>96536470
stay furious storyshitter :)

>>96536276
The game doesn't have goals. The players do.

>>96536071
you're mad and I win :)

>>96558858
At this point, it amounts to bitching and insulting each other over semantics. Bottom line is, unless the players themselves are going to step up and construct the game world from entirely scratch themselves and have a GM just play the role of referee as the players decide what to do from the smorgasbord of things they set up beforehand, they have to rely on the GM to present something to them that session to make any meaningful choices in. And unless they are content with the GM just randomly making shit up off the top of his head, every single session, and have them outright play “mother may I” with their own players on what they’re comfortable with or nit, at some point they’re going to need to prepare stuff beforehand that’s more interesting than “monster is present, fight them or not idk fuck you”. If you want to bitch about at the idea of the game master forcing your hand before you can decide something for yourself, that’s one thing. But at this point, it’s becoming a pathetic passing contest over control in a game of imagination. Good GMs should definitely be flexible enough to not get hung up on players changing their mind or deciding something is more relevant to their interests and time than what they agreed upon, but good players trust that their GM isn’t out to control them or waste their time when a game state is laid out.

Cause otherwise you get pathetic threads like this. Where boring shitposters shingle and whine about “story” this and “story” that, desperate never playing a game in their lifetimes, acting as though “and then your party spotted some goblins” is somehow obstructing their agency more than their fat heads are by being contrarian losers.

>>96560717
No. It's not semantics. The goals of the players are determined by the players, and no one else.

>>96509907 (OP)
This kind of thing is pretty much how the last PF campaign I played in ended: with a pathetic fizzling whimper.
Nothing we did mattered in the end, every single ally we made died offscreen, and the entire adventure ended up being pointless. GM admitted that he wrote "the ending" way ahead of time, and the whole campaign he'd been running for 7 months was just an excuse for the big shocking moment, so he didn't want to rework everything to reflect what we accomplished. I guess he just assumed we were going to fail and hit us with some late season Game of Thrones "gotcha!!!" that made no sense and he got really depressed that we all hated it.

You lose.

>>96563147
Demonstrate then. Show an exact example of this in play and how a GM is meant to prepare for it without ever once doing this before the game starts.

>>96563745
Ok, which action would you like an example of?

>>96563745
Well?

>>96563756
Everything you just claimed. Show your implied ideal game, one that has absolutely no preparation whatsoever.

>>96563771
You want me to show you how a GM is meant to prepare for a game without preparation? Proofread your posts.

>>96563771
Well?

>>96563779
Yes, anon. That is what you have been saying should be the right way to approach this, isn't it? Show us.

>>96563800
No, I didn't say you should prepare for a game without preparing for a game. Obviously. Proofread your posts.

>>96563800
Well?

>>96563804
Then show exactly how you think a game should be run, rather than just faffing about. Show your game ethos in action so that we understand how it should be done the way you like it.

>>96563828
Haven't been faffing about, you have. Next time, refrain from including logical contradictions in your posts. I won't warn you again.

>>96563840
>asked to put up or shut up
>refuses to do either because he's scared of revealing he doesn't know what he's talking about
Typical

>>96563857
Nope, already done.

>>96563859
>bait plot hooks
So, literally just the "Hey, there's goblins in the hills to fight" shit you rejected as being a bad example of a game
So you're advocating for the exact same thing you say is an example of bad GMing

Jesus, you are so stupid

>>96563870
No, not at all. Read the post again if you're still confused.

>>96563894
Yep, you are. Reply if furious :)

You lose :)

>>96563872
Too late. Had your chance, you blew it. Better luck next time.

>>96563919
Nope you had your chance and you blew it, better luck next time :)

got so mad he reported to himself to make the other guy look mad LOL

got so mad he reported himself to make the other guy look mad LOL

got so mad he reported himself to make the other guy look mad LOL

I win :)

>>96564089
>Still seething even with mod backing
Lol

>>96509972
>Which they will then drink from

I win :)

>>96511248
God their hideouts were so fucking comfy

>>96511409
Keep the clock ticking, the world moves on regardless of player involvement. Commerce keeps flowing, armies keep marching. The issues they ignore will get worse, or get solved by somebody else. The places they've fucked up will re-settle or rebuild. They'll never see most of it and the parts they do come across seem to leave them utterly dumbfounded.

>>96566724
>the world moves on regardless of player involvement.
Ummm... that's plot
>Commerce keeps flowing
That's plot
>armies keep marching.
Still plot, sweaty.
>The issues they ignore will get worse
Yup, plot.
>or get solved by somebody else.
Eww, plot AND GMPCs
>The places they've fucked up will re-settle or rebuild.
And that's plot.

Sorry honey, you lose this time.

>>96509907 (OP)
Idgaf how railroaded we are, i will happily follow her plotlines given all the work she does to try and give us a good game.

>>96511409
I usually first make adjustments for any unforeseen pivots my players inevitably take
then I look at my list of previously unused combat and skill encounters to see if any of them would be appropriate
If not brew like 3 more
Then I see if I can wrangle them into moving the direction I want them to with an incentive or punishment
then I just wing the rest

>>96511755
100%.
In my experience, DM'ing in a mall LGS for a decade, there are a lot of people who think dnd has to be like improve. Where you aren't allowed to say no, just "yes and".
This kind of an approach is a good way to get lost in the weeds forever.
You should have a plot, you should have milestones you expect to hit on a regular basis, they should be somewhat mailable and if you have to kill your darling so be it.
But a game without a plot is just improv and if you have ever been part of an improv club you know how fucked that can be.

>>96511409
Preparing a game is like writing a book.
Running a game is like giving up the rights and having that book adapted into a movie with no consideration for authors original intent whatsoever.

>>96515677
I am the DM.
I am the dictator of this fantasy realm.
It is the players who must conform to it, not the other way around.
I am an agent of order, and the players are invariably agents of chaos. We are forever at war in this regard.

>>96513936
a man of taste I see.

>>96515034
>how is being pedantic annoying

>>96515158
lol dumbass.

>>96509907 (OP)
>GM mentions having written the players' dialog lines for the next session

>>96523116
I'm the DM
I'll do as I please.

>>96524117
Nothing inherently.

>>96569459
Its my party and I'll die if I want to

>>96536223
>need to write additional plots ahead of time,
oh no!
not... effort?

From reading this thread and that PREPPING WITHOUT PLOTS article I have come to one irrefutable conclusion.
Players are dumb and gay.
Don't tell them they are in a plot, it hurts their ego and shatters the veil.

>>96535916
I must have missed something reading that article because it sounds like he's just describing a choose your own adventure novel but then also uses CYOA as an example of the thing you shouldn't be doing.
>3 clue rule
this is way more interesting than the rest of the article. this would actually fix an issue I sometimes run into.

>Different kind of tables play differently
>some play crunchy dungeon delving, others grand narratives aided by dice, and others still fantasy sandbox simulators
>This is somehow a problem that angers many people on /tg/
I just don't get it

>>96569525
well... yeah?
You can also pick the best option from a random table and pretend that was the one that came up.

>>96569642
Random tables are pretty based, but nothing beats the ol' thinking cap.

>>96569622
I genuinely don't think that's the issue here.
The issue is that most players believe their options are endless. When presented with evidence to the contrary, the reaction can range from "well duh" to "how dare you".

>>96569622
Consider how in /mu/ some people act suprised and mad that anons listen to bands that fill stadiums and are promoted permanently around the bands they listen to.

>>96569705
>The issue is that most players believe their options are endless
They should be, the absolute freedom is one of the rare few edges tabletop still has over vidya. And with dawn of LLMs even that might not hold for long.

>>96568801
Nope.

>>96569289
Why would you need a list of encounters? All you have to do is look at what exists in the world.

>>96569525
Why did you write a story instead of running a game?

>>96569622
Stop playing wrong.

>>96569525
>Players are dumb and gay.
That's kind of a given even without nogaems baying "storyshitter" every time a GM takes a breath

>>96570129
Still has to mentally populate that world with stuff beforehand, which you whine is how it's not supposed to be done

No, the world evolves on its own once the parameters are set. No involvement required.

>>96570265
Give ten detailed examples

Sent.

>>96569571
>it sounds like he's just describing a choose your own adventure novel
As a first attempt to get over this mental hurdle: you're preparing the things the PCs will interact with, rather than the choices the PCs will make. If you prepare a dungeon, you include a bunch of rooms, and put stuff in the rooms, but to the extent to which you should be anticipating player choices, it should be like "if you step on the pressure plate, then the trap triggers" or "the fey knight in this room will question the PCs rather than immediately attack them". It's not "the players will tell the fey knight XYZ" or "the trap triggers, causing John's character to be poisoned, and he will have to go to the sage for healing." The same should apply to other situations.

This one, I think, gives a more clear example of what the differences are in what to/not to do, borrowing from the Eternal Lies campaign: https://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/37422/roleplaying-games/dont-prep-plots-tools-not-contingencies

>>96569525
The problem with prepping a plot is it is just bad prep, because players do not know the plot you are prepping (beyond the loosest outline, like "hunt down the dragon"). Therefore, they will not do the things you want them to do, and you will have to either:
- Waste time to cover enough contingencies that they happen upon the contingencies you prepare; or
- Railroad the PCs into the particular set of events you prepared.

The second is much less work than the first, but it's an ass game experience and causes brain damage, which creates the third possibility:
- The players start acting like it's a video game and following the commands of whatever NPC has a glowing exclamation point over their head.

I guess if you and the players enjoy that, then you can do it, but that sort of GMing experience makes me want to stop GMing almost instantly.

>>96570265
Post notes, faggot. You won't.

Notes? The world evolves on its own, like I said. I don't need to take notes.

>>96569571
So you didn't read the article?

>>96569571
Here's an example using a scene from a game I ran recently :

A vampire lord manipulates the prison guard escorting him, using him to free a number of supervillains to function as a diversion so that he can make his escape from the underground facility. He mind-controls the guard and orders him to seek him out at his lair after injuring himself to make it look like he killed the other guard in self defense.

On the surface, the escaped villains and other criminals encounter strange monsters (unrelated to the vampire) around the city at the same time as they are trying to escape from law enforcement and the various heroes assisting.

There is no more prep than this. There is no story, and no particular way that I wanted anything to play out. The players were free to interact with the scenario however they saw fit. When they encountered opposition of any kind, I would just make something up as appropriate. There were no pre-generated foes, nothing got re-used, and there were no quantum ogres. Nothing was required of the players beyond their initial buy-in to the one-shot pitch.

>>96536471
It's a joke the cosmic forces play on DMs. It's always the most random nonsense one off thing that the players attach.

>>96570278
>>96570582
lol coward

>>96570871
Already answered.

>>96570875
Coward lol

>>96570810
Hate to say it anon, but to most of us, that sounds like a story. That's the entire reason why it's been clear this entire thread is about semantics over what is or isn't a story, because what's a "story" to one is just a throwaway premise/excuse to get the party hyped for the game to another person.

>>96570918
No predetermined sequence of events, thus no story.

>>96570943
You mean beyond the pre-determined sequence of events where the vampire lord manipulated the prison guard escorting him, using him to free a number of supervillains to function as a diversion so that he can make his escape from the underground facility, then mind-controls the guard and orders him to seek him out at his lair after injuring himself to make it look like he killed the other guard in self defense I am assuming.

>>96570960
What gave you the impression that those events were pre-determined?

>>96570963
By how you presented it.

>>96570966
Be specific.

>>96570970
The lack of specification on whether or not the vampire lord was a PC making those various choices made your recounting appear to be describing a sequence of events that are being acted out before the players as part of your scenario, rather than just bluntly recounting what decisions the PC enacted and the effects of those decisions being reflected therein.

Although even then, to most people, that [sequence of events] is in and of itself a story by the very nature of recounting it, which is why most of this quibbling is hard to parse since nobody wants to determine where a "story" starts and ends, whether it's being defined as the level of set-up for the game that the players will primarily determine most of the outcomes within barring the influence of the dice and the rules or if the events within the game count as a story or not.

>>96571014
Wasn't a player character, and the events weren't pre-determined.
A sequence of events isn't a story. A pre-determined sequence of events with no player input is. It's not quibbling, it's not arbitrary, it's not ambiguous, and there is no overlap.

>>96571026
>A sequence of events isn't a story
Literally is, chief

>>96571036
Literally isn't.

>>96571026
>A sequence of events isn't a story.
it's a history

>>96571039
>story
>noun (1)
>sto·ry ˈstȯr-ē
>plural stories
>an account of incidents or events
alternately
>a fictional narrative shorter than a novel

By nature of you recounting it, it's a story.

Nope.

>>96533918
I'd love to know who these imaginary players are that are anything besides the most passive sponges you could ever imagine. If they're not being dragged along a leash they will never do anything and whine at me for putting up obstacles.

>>96571236
Why did they sign up to play a game they're not interested in?
Why do you continue to invite them?

>>96571236
I'd been talking about my own friend group, which was formed after years of vetting through min-maxing assholes focused on "winning" everything, wallflowers that demand to be spoonfed but complain about lack of player agency, and obnoxious "lol I whizz on the king" failed comedian types. Those are the kind of people you don't want at the table to begin with, nevermind railroading or not.

If you're not min-maxing your character, you're a bad roleplayer.

>>96571236
There are basically two possibilities here:
1. Poor sandbox construction. If you want open/agentic players, you either need to signpost multiple "quest opportunities" - dungeons, mysteries, bosses, whatever - they can engage with, OR, you need to do some type of structured Session Zero where they help you build out the campaign as they create their characters. For example, maybe the detective has a case from his past that he never managed to solve, about the murder of his dead wife, and you can then use that as adventure fodder.

OR:

2. Poor player behavior. In this situation, I would say to the players, "I really, really hate it when I have to tell you what to do. You have been playing in this game for a while, you have goals/info, act on that stuff. You do not need to be 100% perfect mind readers, I do not have a predetermined resolution for stuff, just try to solve the problems in front of you." If they did not change behavior, I would say, "This sucks and is no longer fun for me, I am going to stop running this campaign."

If you like dragging brainless retards through the game, then more power to you. Personally, I hate it, and thus don't do it.

>>96511409
Same thing I do for actual settings.
>Some NPCs players might bump into
>Some statblocks for enemies they might face
>Some loot the players might get
>A few names to take for random NPCs
The rest I just wing, my players aren't retards and generally have an idea of what they want to do, prepping is just so I don't need to flip through books mid session to find the stats for enemies or weapons or rules that rarely come up. It's nice not needing to plan an overarching plot as players can take directions I didn't consider both out of brilliance and stupidity. Confronted the BBEG once with his daughter's cyborg twin who shared her soul thinking they'd have a gotcha just for him to snap his daughter's neck and teleport away leaving them trapped (a specific situation for why they would end up trapped) and ended up defeating said BBEG by blowing up his flagship while he was (astonishingly failing) to duel another player. At the end of the campaign two PCs died in space from said ship exploding and two more were stranded on a deserted planet with two dead cyborg chicks, one got her neck snapped, the the other died from the twin who shared her soul dying from having half her shared soul ripped away.

That campaign was Dark Heresy dealing with an ostensibly loyal Archmagos from the Horus Heresy who chased the traitors into the eye of terror and recently escaped. My current campaign is pretty much the galaxy was a loose league of independent planets with a caste of soldiers/police/judges settling disputes between planets by law and force until half of them decided to try to rule humanity and started a civil war. A couple hundred years later the former rebels are autocrats who treat normal humans like cattle and the rest of humanity barely trust the remaining loyal soldiers/police/judges who are mostly reduced to a status akin to the stereotype of a Wild West marshall just wandering around solving crimes and putting down criminals.

>>96571296
Not min-maxing as in making an optimal character like a sane person, I mean obviously copying net builds that they don't properly understand, failing to actually use all the tools at their disposal by repeatedly forgetting all their shit, and then bitching when they inevitably fuck up by being clueless retards or the dice just don't go their way. I can respect someone who put in the work to make an optimal character and take the game seriously. I don't respect idiots who only want to "win" and act like it's your fault they're fucking retarded.

>>96571331
No part of what you described is min-maxing.

>>96571252
I wish I knew too.
>do
Did. I truly wanted to play at some point and settled for who I could get. There were literally no other players, it was either that or drop the game along with any dreams I had. Managed to bring it to a mediocre ending which is more than I could ask for at that point.
>>96571289
Glad that worked out for you but I rolled badly.
>>96571303
See above. These people could not even handle open-ended objectives that were handed to them, they needed to be told what to do at every point. There was an anon in a thread a while ago that did a good job of breaking down the types.
https://desuarchive.org/tg/thread/96276640/#96277879

>>96571338
No post you've made has any substance

>>96571361
Nice projection.

>>96571360
Mm. I have heard you can get good selection from open tables? Newer players are less likely to have irrecoverable levels of D&D-inflicted brain damage and more willing/able to be creative with solutions, and you can get more takers if you say "yeah, come on down, roll up a character, play, and if you don't like it, don't worry about it."

I've gamed online with the same community of people who mostly got along, weren't flakes, etc, so can't say much more.

>>96571360
It can take years to find people that gel with you, anon, so you just have to keep at it. Just remember the saying that no game is better than a bad one in the sense that putting up with terrible people will just make the experience worse unless you treat them like a three stooges act. Though you probably shouldn't do that openly if you decide to.

>>96571407
I think after it's already been years I'm entitled to consider my efforts doomed.
>>96571387
If only that were true.
I've gamed online and it's only ground down my patience.

I think i am in love with my dm.

>>96570461
I find it extremely hard to believe any dm is doing
>the players will tell the fey knight XYZ >the trap triggers, causing John's character to be poisoned, and he will have to go to the sage for healing.
Considering, ya know, dice rolls.
I'll read the article. Thanks.

>>96570810
That's about as much plot as I use.
Maybe I'm already doing the stuff in the article?
The points of contention in the article still feel like a distinction without a difference

>>96571619
>I find it extremely hard to believe any dm is doing
>>the players will tell the fey knight XYZ >the trap triggers, causing John's character to be poisoned, and he will have to go to the sage for healing.
>Considering, ya know, dice rolls.
Yes, that's the point. You wouldn't do it with a dungeon, so you shouldn't do it with other kinds of adventures.

>>96571646
Very clear difference.

>>96570461
>players do not know the plot you are prepping (beyond the loosest outline, like "hunt down the dragon"). Therefore, they will not do the things you want them to do
This is just evidence of poor use of incentives and disincentives.
I find players both enjoy being rewarded for following the breadcrumbs and also fighting against my intent if the disincentives are tuned properly. In this way the players have both coarse and fine input on the game as opposed to basically boiling every interaction down to a fine interaction with the most immediate of consequences.
I guess I am saying you cannot have coarse interaction if there is no plot to interact with.

>>96571646
Pretty much is. Anyone that plays a real game knows most of it is just making logical reactions to what the players are doing within the boundaries of the rules. Most bitching and moaning about plots and stuff are just bitching about the window dressing at the end of the day.

>>96570461
There isn't anything I want the players to do, since I'm not an author and I'm not writing a story.

>>96571722
For the purposes of this discussion, I use the term "plot" to describe a sequence of events that the players are structurally required to move through, without an apparent in-world reason (e.g. obviously you have to find out who the murderer is before you can arrest him). If players are hunting the dragon, but they manage to figure out a way to teleport to the dragon's lair, then that is okay because you just go to the lair map. If your plot involves them choosing to move through the forest where they'll find Mr. Wigglypuff who has the magic item that they need to defeat the dragon (but they do not know about), then that's bad because now you need to somehow get them to Mr. Wigglypuff, but they have already left him in the dust.

If you are declaring that a plot is any sequence of larger events which occurs or guides the game's structure instead, then whatever, I don't want to get into semantics. Semantic debates are a waste of time, especially on 4chan.

>>96571764
There isn't anything you want the players to do, since you're not a GM. Last (You) you get from me.

>>96571735
Not at all.

>>96571823
You lose.

>>96571826
Explain why, otherwise go away

>>96571854
It's pretty simple. A pre-determined series of events with specific events that the players are guaranteed to encounter or interact with is a plot. A game isn't a plot, and a plot isn't a game. The distinction isn't trivial and it's not vague.

>>96571863
Except that's not how most of this discussion has been using the word "plot", you dumb fuck. Only you have been. Which explains why you're so goddamn stupid.

>>96571873
There's only one definition, sorry. You lose.

>>96571876
We don't hand out participation awards on the mongolian basket weaving forums, underage kiddo.

>>96571881
You lose.

>>96509972
>No fun threads allowed ever on /tg/, it must all be pure wankery

Fuck off. Feel free to post about your own game, shitposter-kun

>>96511755
Go run some PBTA faggotry then, mr. no-games

>>96527971
(you)

>>96563927
cope, seethe, mald, and dilate

>>96571048
But it wasn't a story at the time

If you reply you lose :)

Actually I win :)

>>96572019
That's just a cope at this point
You and your players made a story. That's the nature of the game. Live with it.

>>96572050
Wrong.

>>96572056
Proved me right by denying it. Cope harder.

Proved me right, rather.

>>96572020
My current loss only makes my inevitable victory all the sweeter

>>96572050
The whole point is that you don't plan a story in advance. It is irrelevant that a story can arise from your game. The same is true of any game of football or day of work or school. You can tell a story about it after the fact but you did not go into any of those with a story already written

inevitable loss :)

>>96572109
>The whole point is that you don't plan a story in advance.
Nobody contests that because nobody ever suggested doing that to begin with.

>It is irrelevant that a story can arise from your game.
Not to me, because my entire point was that the majority of people use the word "plot" to describe the game's sequence of events after the fact, not beforehand. And that quite a number of anons are basically screaming at a boogeyman that doesn't exist besides in their heads.

>>96572147
Everyone suggested doing that.

>>96572154
Should get your eyes checked

nope you should

>>96571982
In fairness, it is insane that this guy's posts were not deleted for being literally spam:
>>96564024
>>96564033
>>96564048
>>96564062

Not spam, I'm just right and better than everyone else :)

>>96572207
Oh, one of them got deleted, that's nice at least. Jannies could try moving their eyeballs very slightly up or down when reviewing the post, or does the behind-the-scenes not actually show it in context?

lol you're so fuckin mad

>>96571823
>If you are declaring that a plot is any sequence of larger events which occurs
The only thing I'd add is that it is planned in advance. As an example a written segment of the adventure that will happen regardless of player input. The ghouls that have been tracking you, the perception rolls you failed, those are coming to a head this session regardless of the players actions at that point. It is no reason to have a face melting reaction. Neither is something more coarse like requiring the players to seek the aid of both of the kings warring sons. It's up to me to decide if I will accept an alternative (players are seldom that clever) but that's the plot as written.
Even something more fine like the result of a failed detect trap check can be part of this plot for the next session if it is impactful enough. I'd say as a general rule pre-written outcomes belong more with coarse, overarching plot points and less with fine details. Though, to dismiss either is to give up useful tools as a DM.

>>96572236
The players aren't required to do anything.

>>96572245
Like be in your games, since you clearly don't GM

>>96572251
Clearly you don't.

>>96572253
Reduced to just repeating what others say? Pathetic.

>>96572260
You haven't supported anything you've said, why should I?

>>96572260
He can't be reduced to anything, he's some janny's pet who is allowed to shit up the board with his worthless, worthless posts.

>>96572266
Sorry your opinions are wrong.

>>96572263
I supported plenty, all you do is just go "but nuh" like a faggot just like >>96572266 said

>>96572275
No you didn't. "Clearly you don't GM" isn't supported by anything. "The players need to do X" isn't supported by anything.

>>96572280
"The players aren't required to do anything" is a massive nothing statement that has the same air of an obvious statement like "The players aren't required to play your game", in the exact same vein of "but nuh" like everything you've posted. Of fucking course nobody is requiring anyone to do anything but exist and not shit their pants when playing a game, but that doesn't mean jack shit in this discussion. The main issue that is being debated is the amount of prep work vs improv work that is considered "acceptable" to use in a campaign. The only way you can "require" anyone to do anything in a game is by holding a physical gun to their head, and the amount of games where that actually happens is so infinitesimally low that it's irrelevant.

You dumb fuck.

>>96572327
Wrong. It's not a nothing statement. The players aren't required to do anything because the GM doesn't decide what the goals of the players are. The players decide what their goals are. No one else.

I reserve the right to be as rigid as I see fit in my games The greatest sin of the dm in op's post is that he let players know that there was this rigid structure in the first place.

>>96572333
Again, so fucking what? Are the players also determining the exact steps they take to achieve their goals? Are they creating the npcs they will talk to in order to achieve those goals? Creating the enemies and obstacles in their paths? Are they running the game all by themselves?

>>96572339
The whole issue of a rigid structure is that it becomes extremely obvious to players.

Trust me, if the adventure only works by players talking to the NPC with the yellow ! over their head, who gives them instructions on where to go next, they don't need you to tell them. They know.

>>96572342
Why did you reply with a non sequitur? When you said "The players are required to seek the aid of both of the kings", you were wrong. Stop arguing.

>>96572355
Literally never said that, janny's pet, lol. I accept your concession.

>>96572362
Yep, you did. I accept your concession.

>>96572355
The players are required to do it. If they don't, I will kill them IRL.

>>96572245
I have kicked players for that
His name was jerred
We called him fuck off druid, he would shape shift, fuck off and mack on one of the player's mom. (We played in a mall, the kid was like 10 and his mom stuck around to supervise. She was hot).
If you don't want to participate, you are gone.

>>96572365
Show proof

Scroll up retard.

>>96572372
We already established you're wrong, because I will physically kill players who refuse to try to do the two kings thing. Your concession is accepted.

Your concession is accepted.

>>96572382
>tfw you have no ability to counter my point about killing the players
Will the jannies not rid me of this worthless shitposter?

still not required :)

>>96572350
>becomes extremely obvious to players
You overestimate player's critical observation skills and underestimate a prepared dm's ability to adapt.
You come to a crossroads
You can go north to the spooky castle, west to the port town or east to the desert. Spoiler alert, were doing the vampire hunter thing no matter where we end up.
Welcome to my magical realm, bitch.

>>96572397
Then why should they show up?

>>96572397
that's not a rigid structure, though, unless the spooky castle, port town, and desert all use the same map.

>>96572403
They're 100% free to run their own game where they don't do that, of course
But most players are too lazy and spoiled to do anything but just show up and eat pizza, then demand their DM give them a motivation to adventure rather than take five seconds to make a decision themselves

lol retard

>>96572410
Same map, different flavor. Sorry you had to learn this way little timmy.

>>96572423
Then they definitely will notice that the desert is somehow structured like a castle, assuming you're not making this up.

>>96572403
Its fun.
If you have to ask why it's fun, I have to ask why you are even here.

Nope, following a story isn't fun.

>>96572430
nta, but most genuinely don't notice or care. They're there to kill shit and make up their own reasons for being there. Otherwise they'll just turn around the moment they get bored. No harm, no foul.

>>96572430
You, once again, severely overestimate player's ability to tell the difference and severely underestimate how easy it is to transmute a map to fit these environments.

>>96572440
Nope, you underestimate it.

yep he's furious lol

>>96572444
Open any dm toolkit and there's more than enough info on how to do this even on the fly.
It's like baby's first dm trick, you are really clueless if you think this isnt how the sausage is made.

>>96572460
I am a DM, retard. I don't use plots, illusionism, or any other bullshit. Every location in the world exists separately and every being in the world takes actions in the world independently of the whether the players are there to experience it, and their actions succeed or fail using the same resolution mechanic that the players use.

>>96572466
If you do I respect that
But I cannot accurately describe my doubt
It is more dense than the sun

It's pretty easy. Just use your imagination.

>>96572466
By your definition, any prepared material at all counts as "plot", so you're guilty of your own accusations, lol.

>>96572552
Not at all. No pre-determined events, therefore no plot.

>>96572555
According to you, setting the stage is the same as creating a pre-determined story. Ergo, a plot. That's all on you, skippy.

>>96572565
No it isn't, and I never said that. Retard.

>>96572568
Don't blame me for just presenting your own argument back to you

>>96572573
I never presented that argument. Retard.

>>96572589
Totally did. You've been bitching plot this and plot that to anyone who says they prep for their games on the grounds they're "pre-determined", then go ahead and say you prepare the setting the players interact in. You're just pretending your shit doesn't stink because you claim you don't directly puppet what they do, when the fact of the matter is all the content you're handing them to make make a choice or reject still had to be thought up and beforehand to present to them. Shit's as pre-determined as the "So your characters see goblins they can fight" shit you whine is bad.

Admit it or don't, you're the same kind of person you complain about, you just convinced yourself your shit smells like roses.

>>96572613
The events I described weren't pre-determined. Try again.

>>96572617
You created and set them up beforehand. It's pre-determined. You're just refusing to admit it at this point.

>>96572625
Where did I say that? Post a screenshot.

>>96569356
You see me now, a DM
Of a thousand edition wars
I've been DMing 3.5 so long
Where d20s of limbo roar....

>>96572627
>every being in the world takes actions in the world independently of the whether the players are there to experience it
You said it yourself it that doesn't matter if the players are there or not to affect them. You already knew what they were going to do before the players got there and what they will do if the players never interact. All you do is pretend that because you don't directly tell the players to do stuff that makes you different. You do the same pre-determined shit you complain about. You lose.

>>96572645
No, I didn't know what they were going to do. I don't make the decisions, the beings in the game world make the decisions.

>>96572147
Literally that's exactly what people are suggesting. You are making a nothing claim

>>96572650
Right, the beings controlled by you, the game master, who decided beforehand what decisions they will be making

>>96572653
No. The beings controlled by themselves. Try reading my posts.

>>96572654
Anon, npcs do not exist separately of you. They are not living beings capable of independent thought. You as the GM control the npcs. Ergo you control their actions and decisions. Ergo you pre-determine their actions. Ergo by pre-detemining their actions and the events therein, you write out a plot, one of many, that may or may not become interrupted by the presence of the player characters.

I read them. And I can tell you're a fucking moron.

>>96572667
What are you talking about? Of course they exist separately. These days I mostly use ASICs to run them, I kept running into bottlenecks with software solutions.

>>96572676
>using AI to run your game for you
And opinions immediately completely discarded, lol

>>96572685
I didn't say AI. Why do you keep hallucinating? Are you AI?

>>96572689
Too late, thread over. Have a nice life.

>>96572696
You lose.

>NPCs are capable of independant thought.
Boldest claim in the entire thread.

>>96573450
And it's correct, if you use the appropriate methods to build minds for them, like I said. Idiot.

>>96574139
You’d need to be retarded to believe that

>>96569873
>the absolute freedom is one of the rare few edges tabletop still has over vidya
incorrect
its the illusion of absolute freedom.
If you dm, you know.

>>96574244
Retard.

>>96574698
If you were a DM you'd know it's quite easy to create a real world populated with hundreds of millions of fully intelligent, independent, feeling, ensoulled beings.

Honestly guys, can you really not tell which posts are made by him? I can see why he comes here, you all don't have any ability to recognize speech patterns. If you want this to stop, you have to learn how to tell who you're talking to.

>>96575920
It's obvious which ones are made by him, the thread's just going to be dead so I'm just shitposting since it's clear he's a retard and I want to be pick on him

Can't refute the argument huh? lmao

>>96576719
What argument? That you're a delusional loser who thinks using programs is akin to creating life? Lmao. That's at least a good argument for needing to git your meds.

Who said anything about programs, retard?

>>96576944
You did
>>96572676

That's not me dumbfuck

>>96576967
Every retard poster is the same retard

Nope

>>96576980
>Still seething days later
Lol, you're retarded

lol dumbfuck

>>96577954
Yeah, you are, lol.

yep you are :)

>>96577965
Lol, you lost

you lost :)

>>96577980
Lol, you lost so bad

you lοst :)

>>96577992
Lol, you just can't win

yoս lost :)

>>96578004
Lol, you just keep losing

you lost :)

>>96578022
Lol, you're even more retarded than you seem, loser

looks like he's the one that lost in the end lmao

you lost :)

>>96578208
Why are you still seething?

I won

>>96578347
So why are you so angry then?

you lost :)

>>96578415
Then why do you seethe so?