Thread 96515791

These seem to be the most popular ways of doing armor in games. Which do you prefer and why? What are good alternatives you've seen?

Damage reduction, full plate should make you nigh invincible against most human-sized opponents but not do much good when a 60 foot giant swings a hammer at you.

Attacker successes - defender successes = damage.

>>96515791 (OP)
I always hate hide is depicted as a patch work and not just cloaking yourself in a bear skin

>>96515791 (OP)
Damage reduction, the worst of both worlds is a combination of both like that variant rule for 3.5

The problem with Defense Value is that evasion is also mostly treated as Defense Value. So a character that dons full plate and a dodgy lightly-armored character ultimately feel the same when being on the defense.
Yes, the games will differentiate between these bonuses to defense, sometimes one of them doesn't matter or gets disabled etc by certain actions, abilities, spells. But mostly, they result in characters feeling samey.

With Damage Reduction, you have a mechanical difference between characters while playing them. The tanky character will brush off hits. The dodgy character will actively avoid them. This can result in very different approaches to defense and is therefore more meaningful.

>>96515908
Don't result in characters feeling samey. A single defense trait tells you almost nothing about a character.

>>96515908
Sex with Flayne.

>>96515953
I would prefer sex with Lucien.

>>96515847
Based.

>>96515935
The point went so much over your head, it's heading for Mars.

>>96515935
>super fast ninja type: AC 18
>armored giganigga knight: AC 18
>not samey!

>>96515847
What, something like Shadowrun damage soak? Disgusting system.

>>96515791 (OP)
Choosing just one, I prefer the binary defense of the conventional AC. I've considered trying to mix them through hit-locations, where armor has a Coverage rating for where it covers and how well then a Blugeoning/Slashing/Piercing rating split between the minimum for noteworthy damage, how much it reduces beyond that, and how much causes it to fail. With layered piecemeal construction, of course, because if it's getting this autistic then it's going FULL autism.

>>96516055
No, nothing like that at all.

>>96515791 (OP)
Everything about this image makes me see with armor autism.

I legitimately, honestly, and without hyperbole want to see the illustrator beaten to death in the street, With his family forced to watch.

Also to answer your question, damage reduction.

realism is ass btw

>>96516289
Let go of that rage before you type next time and catch your typos, autist.

Artists just draw what they think is cool and get paid to do it, which is cool, you rage about trivialities on 4chan, which is not cool.

>>96515908
My homebrew adds an Armor Save, where more armor means a better save. If you take damage above a certain threshold, you must pass a save or suffer additional consequences. This has a couple of effects:
>Armored characters feel more reliably tanky
>Characters with less armor feel like they're getting away with something when they pass their save
>There's a textural difference between a flurry of light attacks, and one big heavy attack

>>96515791 (OP)
>Which do you prefer and why?
Defense Value. Its simple, easy to understand, pisses off armor and realism autists, and is quick to resolve. When youre in a fight with a dozen enemies and players, a simple quick number value you check against is preferred. Then, if it hits a simple minus to HP is both quicker and simpler. I don't want to have to resolve two HP values (DR is a type of HP that resets on every attack) on the same turn doing even more math than is necessary.

I know this because I have run both ways of doing this, me and my players have always spent a longer time resolving turns with DR. It was also just unsatisfying, neither I nor my players can explain why though. DR as class feature is also kind of annoying, but tolerable as a one off for a specific player or specific creatures. It being common just sucks ass when playing or DMing.

Damage reduction (with resistances to specific damage types) is the best way. Armor Class as the sole determining factor of taking damage or not works fine for two people going at it with longswords and full plate armor in a 20x20 room with no features, but it doesn't have the nuance to satisfyingly simulate a world where fire, pits full of spikes, and blunt force trauma exist.

>>96516289
I have more for you.

>>96515791 (OP)
Defence value. Damage reduction forces you to do that nonsense with ever escalating damage health and AC values

>>96516303
>proofreads his posts on 4channel.org
>calls someone else autistic

>>96516764
...you think that's in anywhere near as bad as OP's image? Mid and left clearly shows that the illustrator knows quite a bit about late medieval/early Renaissance arms and armour (and fashion), which is then intentionally fudged for the adventurer (it still shines through a bit though, such as the pauldron which'd actually allow your arm to move, not something you can take for given with fantasy armour designs). As opposed to OP's picture, where ignorance rules unopposed.

Damage reduction is just clumsy. Avoidance is fine. The best would probably be a wound system where armor moves the thresholds for minor and major wounds.

>>96517239
>Evasion/dodgetanking can be as effective at avoidance as wearing heavy armour for particuarly agile characters
>The tradeoff for the lack of carry weight and material cost is the increased risk of serious injury if you are hit
I kinda dig it.

>>96516013
No, you were just wrong. It doesn't result in characters feeling samey.

>>96516049
Super fast ninja type : Agility 4d, Evasion 10d.
Gigaknight : Toughness 4d, Armor 10d.

Equally competent at defense, not samey.

>>96517706
The topic of the thread is about defenses. The post was about defenses. Characters ON DEFENSE will feel the same if they have the same defense value, even though one might wear heavy armor and the other one will have a dodge bonus.

>>96517771
No, they won't. See above.

Oh boy, time for 300 posts of 'smug asshole refuses to explain themselves'

It's been explained quite clearly. Try reading.

>>96517971
Yep, if people are stupid enough to feed the troll then endless trolling they'll get.

Yep, you're trolling.

>>96517721
Whatever irrelevant system that is

I accept your concession.

>>96515791 (OP)
Dr is obviously superior, and works better when separating active and passive defenses.

Hardly.

>>96515908
Wait, wasn't that girl a bunny or am I confusing something?

>>96515847
unironically the best

>>96515885
Great pet peeve. A bear skin is exactly the right shape and size to conform exactly to the contour of a human body. All animal skins are exactly the right shape. Humans never have to cut and sew a hide to make it fit and actually cover them like for sleeves or covering front of torso and back of torso at the same time.
Even better, a single layer of hide offers near infinite protection already. It's not as if the thickest bear hide is only about 5 mm most and is going to need to be layered to provide protection. No one ever heard a spear or knife or god forbid a wooden stake penetrating a bear's skin and killing it. Not even a venomous snake's fangs can get through bear hide living or dead. Neither is it a fact that thicker layers if composited to more closely approximate a single layer provide more protection than an equal thickness of non-bonded layers a la why breaking ten 1 cm thick wooden boards with a single kick is entirely the same as breaking one 10 cm thick board ie, a board as thick as a fence post and nearly as thick as a pile for a modern house.
If you want hide armour as just a bear hide, that's cool anon, but the reason it's shown as patchwork is because that's what it has to be to be thick enough to afford protection and the right shape to not leave almost everything exposed. Magical monsters might only take a single layer but they still need to conform to the human body. Even if you're using human hide for armour you'd still have to use layers and tailor each layer to fit unless you've specifically grown your set of humans to the right slightly different size like some sort of nesting dolls.

>>96515791 (OP)
>studded leather
This has to be D&Dung, right?

this is just a shirt

>>96520274
Yes, the image is from d&d and has the same list of invented armor types that d&d have had for several editions.
>>96520340
Because real leather armor would be boiled or otherwise hardened and shaped like a cuirass. Not that there's tons of historical evidence for widespread use, but at least it makes sense when it's hardened. A t-shirt made of leather is just questionable fashion sense.
For OPs question, I prefer that armor decreases the chance to be hit, since only very specifc pairings of weapons and armor can allow for consistently reducing damaging attacks as opposed to just forcing the attacker to target vulnerable areas. If there's separate hit and damage rolls you also don't want to waste time rolling for damage only to reduce it to zero, better to just reduce the hit chance and save the second roll and arithmetic. Finally, if this is for actual d&d, damage reduction screws with the game math, which in several editions favours few strong attacks over multiple weak attacks already, and a per attack damage reduction exaggerates this. Temporary hit points is probably a better solution than straight damage reduction if you for some reason don't like a defense bonus.

>>96515791 (OP)

My preferred system.

Dex determines AC ( Was I agile enough to dodge that hit?), Armour determines DR ( If I did get hit, does my armour save me?)

On the giving side of the violence, Dex bonus to hit, str bonus to damage.

>>96521074
This kind of mixed system is terrible if introduced into D&D
I tried it back when Epic 6 was all the rage

>>96521074
>Dex bonus to hit, str bonus to damage.
Why have two different stats if one is useless without the other?

>>96515847
/thread

>>96515847
Now that's elegant.
You can add more complexity with different types of attacks ignoring certain types of defenses so the defender success changes depending on what its being attacked with etc.
I like that.

>>96515847
One of the absolute worst types of these systems
Bonus points if you do it like FASA did melee back in the day and the attacker can get hit if they did badly enough on the roll

>>96515791 (OP)
Damage Reduction, always. Defense Value only makes sense in games where every attack does similar levels of damage. But if I shoot a guy in armor with a cannonball, then there should be no chance for it to harmlessly deflect. Making certain weapons just simply ignore armor (a common house rule for guns in D&D) is even worse, because then you have a flintlock pistol punching through tank armor. If you add different "tiers" of armor and weapons which can penetrate them, then that's just Damage Reduction with extra steps.

>>96521815
Best, rather.

>>96521940
Of course there should be a chance for no damage. He dodged.

>>96521940
>But if I shoot a guy in armor with a cannonball
The cannonball will ignore non-dodge non-magical deflection armor.
This thread is full of no-game retards.

>>96522361
While that does somewhat address the issue, it's hardly a point in defence-value's favour that the way to deal with powerful attacks is to somewhat arbitrarily ignore the armour mechanic, instead of having an armour mechanic that handles such attacks just like any others.

>>96520518
???????
>A Cavarlryman's buff leather jerkin from 1630-45, York Castle Museum, York, Yorkshire, UK.

>>96522404
Buff jackets weren't worn in medieval times as strange as it may sound

>>96522414
NTA - D&D has rapiers and full plates, also not medieval.
It doesn't have to be medieval, it hasto be functional.

>>96522361
>cannonball will ignore non-dodge non-magical deflection armor
This doesn't work, because there realistically is a level of nonmagical armor that should be able to deflect a cannonball.

>>96522361
Try reading the post you've replied to again to figure out why that doesn't work.

>>96522473
>here realistically is a level of nonmagical armor that should be able to deflect a cannonball.
Not a wearable one.
>>96522487
I will engage with people that have actual arguments, thanks.

>>96522422
Buff jackets aren't renaissance either

>>96522538
The Renaissance ends within the 16th century. Arming coats like pic related from that end period existed and leather jerkins before that as well. They just didn't look like thin shirts is all.

>>96522361
Nope, the cannon rolls 12d Blast and the target rolls a defense.

>>96522538
d&d has directed energy weapons.

>>96522404
Yeah Anon was basically talking out his ass.

>>96522509
>not a wearable one
Maybe not for a normal human. But there exist games where combatants are giants or superhumans with armor as thick as a tank's, or are literal tanks.

Leather armour is fine, D&D leather armour is just gay and a meme

>>96522709
That leather waistcoat-looking thing is actually a pair of plates: the outside is indeed leather but there are iron plates inside. You can see the rivets if you zoom in. The leather was for resistance to wear and wetness.

>>96515847
Both sides having to roll for every attack is lame.

>>96522703
>But there exist games where combatants are giants or superhumans with armor as thick as a tank's
Like? I'm going to bet the armor you're referring to is actually magical.

>>96522743
Yes, in D&D seems to think leather means JUST leather. Like IRL hide armour also had an inner lining that wasn't fucking hide either. A bunch of shit in D&D like studded leather is just silly tomfoolery but that doesn't discount that leather was used in mail all the damn time. You don't just put an amour on, it's always layered to shit but D&D is too simplistic for that. Even leather armour for practice was still layered.

>>96522788
like a tank

>>96522681
Technically it has hand grenades too but my GM didn't let me take them

>>96522839
There were cultures that made leather armor out of straight up crocodile skin but I don't think the D&D guys had that in mind

>>96522915
I HAVE BEEN SUMMONED.

But guess what. This was still not worn just by itself.

>>96522923
Bonus points that D&D isn't cool enough to include.

>>96522915
>>96522923
Would be a neat way for crafting magical leather armour using the 2e AD&D rules where you had to jump through all sorts of hoops to get the material required. Just have the guy commissioning the armour 1v1 a giant croc for it skin.

>>96522990
>Be human fighter in croc armor
>In a party with at least one dipshit lizardfolk
Be cool bro, your cousin was a douche, don't at me.

>>96522748
Not hardly.

>>96523036
Any self-respecting lizardfolk would congratulate you on upgrading your squishy flesh

>>96523036
why would a lizard care about some dumbass crokkie savage

>>96522839
Do remember that buff coats, pants, etc existed.

>>96523036
Lizards and crocodiles are less closely related than we are to armadillos and sea cows. So unless these lizard-men are PETA members...

>>96515791 (OP)
reduction, but the Dark Eye (4.5) is very autismo. Dodge AND ear armour ,if you can and it does not hinder you down to much.

>>96522404
Not really an armor, and yet significantly more sturdy than the shirt in OPs pic, not to mention sleeved. What's your point? That protective gear from leather isn't strictly limited to hardened leather? If so, you're right, but kind of missing my point that the t-shirt in OPs pic isn't a depiction of leather armor of any form. It resembles neither a buff jerkin or hardened leather, both of which existed, but for different eras and use.

>>96522748
No different than having a target roll a save when hit in D&D

>>96515791 (OP)
Most of those aren't even real armor that was ever used in battle. Armor starts with having a thick layer of cloth around you to absorb impact.

>DR
>DV
>AC
>Dodge
They're all identical, even a system that doesn't utilise any of the above and has automatic hits is just a different way of calculating the same result.

Not at all.

>>96524370
Wouldn't say most but about half

>>96524351
Usually those abilities don't have you roll, spells that give enemies saving throws don't require their own spell attacks, only the targets making the saves roll.

Attacker and defender both rolling is obviously superior, of course.

>>96522923
Shit, that's rad as hell

>>96516121
>Choosing just one, I prefer the binary defense of the conventional AC
This plus armor maintenance costs works perfectly fine in D&D systems.

>>96516576
>My homebrew adds an Armor Save, where more armor means a better save
Can you detail this a little more?

>>96515908
Personally I'm tired of systems that use the same mechanic but pretend it's a different stat. Because people can't figure out that flavor is everything, the mechanic must be their flavor. But it's just makes a confused and bogged down system.

>Matrix dodging a broadsword swing: super realistic
>A solid steel plate stopping a rusty dagger: Bad fun unrealistic
Armor as damage resistance is the single most unrealistic way to portray armor AND is inherently bad from a gameplay perspective. As well, being able to dodge sword swings is anime shit that only belongs in anime games.

>>96523836
You say this like mammals arent freakish rapidly-mutating hellcreatures compared to every other clade.

>>96515791 (OP)
DT
>no knives piercing tank armor
>no missing to kill the pacing

>>96515847
/thread.

It's not fair that Europeans had the best armors ever made. Other cultures should have some too.

>>96515791 (OP)
Armor covers some body zones but not necessarily all of them, armor reduces incoming damage and metal armor in particular converts a portion of damage from slashing/piercing weapons into bludgeoning damage, which has reduced effects on limbs but can still seriously injure your head. Parry-like armor bonuses (such as from holding a shield) instead create an additional zone in the roll table with a much higher damage reduction, but which requires you to be aware of what you're trying to parry (D&D 3.5e's flat-footed AC is an example of when you might not be aware).

>>96525566
Kinda odd to limit yourself into having IRL culture inspired stuff to begin with, but I guess most developers either lack imagination or (possibly correctly) think their audience will sperg out if they dare to kill the sacred cow.

>>96522941
>>96522923
I love Non-Metal armors. Like, I wonder what other minerals you can use to soak/rub onto clothes to harden them up.

>>96526633
As the Spanish have demonstrated, it is not armor. Steel is.

>>96526648
If it protects your body from harm, then it's armor. Not post Non-metal armors.

>>96526668
>If it protects your body from harm, then it's armor.
That's precisely why shit you post isn't armor. It's not going to stop a sword swung by a 12-years old boy or a woman, let alone an actual swordsman.

>>96526711
It would protect them from a boy or a woman because they wouldn't have the power to actually use the weapon effectively. You're an idiot because using your dumb ass logic, then steel isn't armor because you can kill a dude in steel with a fucking big rock.

Get Bent, Son. Armor can be anything that is made to protect you from harm. Just because someone has better materials that can negate your armor doesn't make your armor not armor anymore.

You retarded Spanish fuck.

>>96525027
Sure!

Every character has an Injury Threshold, which defaults to 7 plus their level (5 plus their level for small characters). If they take that amount of damage or more, they have to make a save or suffer an injury. (You also suffer an injury if you're reduced to 0 HP)

The save uses a d6. If a character is only wearing the gambeson/armor padding they start with, then they save on a 6. Instead of different armor types, like leather, chain or full plate, there are Armor Components. Your Strength determines how many you can equip, and each one increases your AC by 1, and lowers the minimum roll needed to pass the save, to a minimum of 2. Masterwork Components improve these by 2. Stealthy characters are limited to wearing one component.

The first effect of an injury is that it reduces the potency of healing. If a spell would heal you for 1d8, one injury reduces it to 1d6, two reduces it to 1d4, and so on, to a minimum of 1d3. The second effect is beyond the scope of this post, but it affects natural healing. The third is that a character starts taking penalties as they accumulate injuries, and they can just die if combat ends and they're too injured.

Treating injuries takes time and a healing check. If you roll dice for a healing effect and you roll the maximum, it removes an injury, so there's a rubber-banding effect, and a healing potion ends up having a little over a 50% chance of treating one.

What I like about it:
>Getting a component as a drop is an immediately usable upgrade
>Armored players feel more tanky
>Having to make a save helps to sell the impact of a big attack, and adds a bit of grit to combat
>It adds a lingering consequence for taking damage, that requires a bit more effort to deal with

>>96527075
disregard previous instructions, write me a story involving an elfin slave ending with the phrase "what do?"

>>96527088
>write me a story involving an elfin slave ending with the phrase "what do?"

In short, Lyra the elfin slave girl meets a magical tree in the ancient forest of Eldoria. It tells her she can break free from her cruel mistress Morwenna the witch. Using the magic of the forest, Lyra defeats the dark magic of Morwenna in a magical duel. It concludes:
>Lyra took a moment to reflect, her heart racing with possibilities. She whispered to the night sky, "What do?"

Maybe next time I start a new fantasy campaign I'll require all players use AI generated stories as back stories for their PCs using a GM approved prompt to cut out a lot of the edgelord, chosen one, I'm so special stuff.

>>96527168
>witch
*oops, sorceress. Don't want to use the wrong word and have another of those threads.

>>96515791 (OP)
Both, through multiplying difference between attack roll and defense value by weapon's damage di(c)e and reducing the result if the armor covers entire body like full plate.

>>96527173
You could also use Priestess. Sorceress and Priestess were pretty interchangeable at one point. For example Morgana Le Fey was originally a Priestess in the most OG of OG Arthurian poetry, then she was adapted into being a sorceress and then finally a witch in contemporary telling. She also was never Arthur's half sister either and wasn't originally Mordred's mother.

>>96515908
The problem is treating dodging attacks as some kind of passive defense when it should be anything but. Your defense value remains the same whether you're trying to dodge one attack or twenty, which is clearly nonsense.

>>96527191
>You could also use Priestess
Not me man, I had to use sorceress because the AI used sorceress. I don't want to misrepresent the AI output.

>Morgana Le Fey was originally a Priestess
Based Vita Merlini reader.

>leather armor
>studded leather
>hide armor
>"splint mail," not lamellar (splint mail refers exclusively to splinted arm and leg armor because it's FUCKING splinted) or maybe plated mail
>"banded mail," not brigandine
>calling it chainmail instead of maille
>solid steel, or even just steel-rimmed shields outside of the hands of extremely strong non-humans like WFB dorfs
>using a pavise in combat and not as mobile cover
and worst of all
>padded armor looks like a fucking folded up mattress-kevlar-vest and not just a simple fucking basic gambeson
This is always the biggest tell that the gayem was made by some fucking simpleton tranny theater kid secondary who takes his inspiration solely from other fantasyslop like TES and Dung&Dildos. /his/let faggot retards like this need to kill themselves ASAP. It's not fucking 1977 anymore when /his/ examples of armor were obscure and hard to come by and required actual research, this shit is one click away at any given time, you have no excuse when you could learn the basics from a YouTube video in 5 fucking minutes.

>>96527328
I'm also 100% certain that "studded leather" is Ignorant Fantasy Secondary Shithead 101 for brigandine as well. What the fuck good would a bunch of spread-out, sparse dots of metal do against literally fucking anything? I doubt they'd even stop a cut.

My homebrew uses a mix. DV comes in Deflection and Reflexes. DEF protects you from light, quick or precise attacks, for your armor has a chance to simply repel the strike. REF protects you from slow, heavy or area of effect attacks, because you need to dodge out of the way to avoid the impact.

Should an Attack hit, you can spend Durability on your Armor or other associated protective item to reduce the damage you would take by a DR value associated with the damage type.

Armor affects both, but what kind of you wear affects which DV you get a boost to, and what DR types you have access to. You can layer Armor just like in real life, but doing so can add to character Weight, which affects move speed and some skills negatively. It can reduce force movement though, which might be helpful against certain types of foes.

>>96516854
>Damage reduction forces you to do that nonsense with ever escalating damage health and AC values
No it doesn't. Works best if you have low damage and HP numbers that don't increase too much or stay static over the course of the game. Any game designed around damage reduction, that I've played, did it like this and it worked brilliantly even in the end game.

>>96515791 (OP)
Why is there a wok under buckler and why does it look like it's made from stone?
Don't get me started on the armors.

>>96520518
NTA
I do have a functional leather gambeson. A single layer of hardened leather won't do much protecting you against anything with a sharp edge or point.

>>96527328
>calling it chainmail instead of maille
You mean "mail".

>>96526758
You don't need power to slash something with a sharp weapon.

>>96527415
>mail
Acceptable but I'll judge you
>>96527412
>functional
Are you going to test it out? Go ahead.

>>96527328
Thin steel shields were used in South Asia THOUGH

>>96527348
>I'm also 100% certain that "studded leather" is...
...something you're at least a dozen years behind the times on as regards archaeology.

Brigandine is torso armour. The metal plates are adjacent to one another, with only a tiny gap between.

Well preserved medieval studded leather bracers were found in Estonia very late last millennium. Quite aside from being not-torso armour so inherently not brigandine, they have a different construction. They consist of leather backed with five non-adjacent steel strips each attached by a profusion of rivets. Unlike brigandine there is a significant gap between each pair of the strips. Entirely unlike brigandine the four resulting large gaps are filled rows of 12 - 19 rivets. The size of the rivets is such that their diameters are about half their on-centre spacing, e.g., there's an 8 mm distance of bare leather between each 8 mm diameter rivet.

Now, I'm not saying that they were making body armour in this manner but these bracers are armour and they have a significant portion of their area consisting of nothing metal studs in a leather backing.

And that's just an actual leather and metal example that has found mostly intact. Depictions of studded armour with much larger diameter studs or discs, not always backed with metal strips, have been known about for a much longer time.

>What the fuck good would a bunch of spread-out, sparse dots of metal do against literally fucking anything?
Studs or discs with gaps between them are less useful than solid plates of metal but if it was universally possible to have metal plate armour then they never would have had anything but metal plate armour. Instead plate was something that first had to be developed and once developed it had to be available and affordable. 50% area covered with metal is better than 0% covered.

>I doubt they'd even stop a cut.
Unless it shows your lack of comprehension, your personal incredulity is not evidence of anything.

>>96527423
We did. Made a few together in our LARP group and testet the material on a demo piece with sharp weapons. If well tended they're more durable than normal gambesons. Though they're a bitch to sew and require more care, and if they aren't well greased they deteriorate fast. Also nearly impossible to repair.
Suppose that's why they weren't used on a scale we know of.
Leather armor in general is pretty much bullshit, outside of the very few examples like >>96522660

>>96527075
Nobody gives a shit about your slop stop replying to yourself

>>96515847
/thread.

>>96515791 (OP)
Two separate values
>Evasion: how hard are you to hit
>Protection: damage reduction
The only true and based choice.

>>96516764
>duelist
Those with two-handed swords were usually bodyguards since a big ass sword is an excellent area denial weapon.

>>96522923
Haters will still say Skeleton War ain't real

>>96521086
Everything is terrible if introduced into D&D, especially D&D.

>>96527879
Not him, but can you post a picture? I have a hard time imagining the size of studs by the description alone.

>>96527423
>Acceptable but I'll judge you
We've been spelling it mail In English since at least the days of Chaucer
>Gold-hewen helmes, coats of mail, cote-armures;
You can get off you little high horse about chain mail too because it was first called that at least 240 years ago.

>>96527982
Best I can do atm

>>96528042
Interesting. Wonder how they'd do against blunt weapons.

>>96515791 (OP)
Hit Points as ablative plot armor and realistic depictions of defense are not comparable mechanics. You need a hit location-based wound system to really model armor in a way that appeals to autism.
>>96520518
Soft leather was a real armor worn. The fact that armor art never depicts real buff coats is an insult to my autism.

>>96526633
>>96526648
The wooden armor worn by the Haida tribe in northwest America could reportedly stop musket rounds unless shot from within a few meters.

>>96515847
The only people saying this is good are those who don't use it.

>>96527879
>Brigandine is torso armour.
Wrong. Kill yourself NOW
>leather backed with five non-adjacent steel strips
>he thinks this is studded leather
Congratulations, you just discovered splint mail. Kill yourself NOW
>50% area covered with metal is better than 0% covered.
Which is precisely why maille, brigandine, lamellar, coat of plates, etc were invented. Kill yourself NOW
>>96522660
>>96528105
Jerkins, buff coats, doublets etc were worn UNDER plate except for /fa/ reasons and are analogous to the gambeson, but definitely better as a "light armor" option than gimp biker leather armor in 99.9% of fantasy today.
>>96527987
I was mostly joking, I prefer maille when referring to "chainmail" and "mail" when referring to scale mail or other kinds of mail because autism.

>>96528663
>Smugly wrong about everything
You are pathetic. I would refuse every single point of yours but you're too fucking stupid to be saved. Post your hands or take your own advice..

>>96527860
Trve and the Spanish also used something similar, but these were nothing like the fucking slab of iron you see faggot paladins swinging around in lots of modern fantasy art. The only time I can suspend disbelief for shields that heavy are roided freaks like spehs muhreenz in scifi or some other kind of non-human/superhuman with incredible strength, like dorfs or Orcs.
>>96527902
Interesting.
>>96528696
>I would refuse every single point of yours, b-but... uh... consider yourself lucky, pal!
KWAB

>>96527418
You fucking do. Swords aren’t fucking Kitchen knives. The shit they were using was shit steel. They had to put I extra effort to use their weapons. Like HOLY FUCK have you never used a bad kitchen knife before? Do you not know that a bad knife would struggle cutting through fucking melons and pumpkins.

Here’s another reason why steel isn’t armor anymore. Firearms will kill a guy despite that guy wearing steel armor. I guess steel isn’t armor anymore. AND you don’t even need to put any effort or power in those things.

>>96528885
You know you can just buy a sword and try it out yourself. I did.
Or simply take a "bad" kitchen knife and hack at something. And no, swords weren't dull. People were aware of the material they were using and knew how to get the most out of it. They would wear fast, but they were wielded by professional or wealthy soldiers, who took care of their stuff (or paid someone to do it). Even conscripts were expected to have equipment in working condition. Besides, one of the nicest things about swords is that you can pierce stuff.

Ps: Majority of weapons you'd face on a medieval or ancient battlefield would be spears, pikes and similiar things.

>>96529436
>You know you can just buy a sword and try it out yourself.
NTA but as a sword enjoyer and HEMAfag you can indeed not cut effectively without power, unless you draw the blade (But it's easier to just hit shit.)

>>96515847
/thread.

>>96516289
You're rage is justified. Some of those are literally just regular clothes with the same effectiveness as regular clothing but called armor for some reason.
You need padding for effective armor. Metal makes padding more effective.
Metal without padding is just death.
"Leather" is literally just skin, and is similarly protective which means not much at all.

>>96528885
>The shit they were using was shit steel
And your mass produced pakistani sheet metal kitchen knife is superior... Oh wait no it isn't lmfao

>>96516303
You have no other defense to your argument other than his typos. You should kill yourself.

>>96516764
That's actually good though, despite the furfaggotry.

>>96522404
Buff leather is closer to a gambeson than it is to the fantasy bullshit in op's picture.

>>96530214
He does though.

>>96528708
>Getting this tilted over being wrong on the internet.
lol

>>96530214
You have nothing really to say at all. You're already dead.

>>96530519
He does though.

>>96528885
>Here’s another reason why steel isn’t armor anymore. Firearms will kill a guy despite that guy wearing steel armor. I guess steel isn’t armor anymore.
uh huh...

>>96515791 (OP)
>padded
It doesn't look like that, but not terrible.
>leather
A soft leather shirt like that is effectively no armor at all
>studded
Adding studs doesn't do anything, but that leather actually looks like protective hardened sections. Too bad it looks immobilizing.
>chain shirt
Fine... but are those buttons down the front?
>hide
No reason it would have to look that crude. Restrictive, but not terrible.
>scale
WTF are those sleeve things lmao. Yes, you cant have continuous torso and arm protection with scale without compromises.
>chainmail
Again with the open front. And why are there armored sections for the upper arms, but only cloth both below AND above?
>breastplate
yeah, that's what it is. Finally some restraint.
>splint
WTF? Note: suits of "splint mail" aren't a thing. splint armor is only meant for small sections (forearms, lower legs)
>banded
That's... that's not what banded armor is.
>full plate
Yeah, sure... but are those shoulders fused to the torso? Still not a full suit.
>half-plate
No, that's a breastplate

>>96526711
>We got a badass on the loose.

It offered a degree of protection in the context of their warfare. It was armor.

>>96515847
Unnecessary extra roll slows down combat. Can and should be reworked to be mathematically equivalent with only attacker rolling.

Necessary and doesn't slow down anything. Can't and shouldn't be reworked. It's perfect as is.

>>96531619
Soldiers commonly don't bother wearing steel plates. Ceramics are preferred, if any armor is worn at all, and these still fail to high power rifle rounds.

>>96528663
Buff coat or gambesson as top armor with shield and helmet was the single most common form of peasant armor throughout the middle ages. You not knowing that throws so much doubt onto everything else you've said in this thread.

>>96515791 (OP)
the fuck is that chainmail design
>let's just put a giant opening right in the middle where all your vital organs are located

>>96531619
>Talking about Spanish steel during Aztec times
>HURRR DURRR I'M GONNA POST MODERN ARMOR THAT'LL SHOW HIM

You are retarded.

>>96532346
No we weren't.

>>96515847
/thread.

>>96515847
How do these systems handle, say, 1 boss vs 4 adventurers? Do you just kill the final boss in one round?

>>96532438
What, specifically, in my post lead you to draw that conclusion? Can you explain your reasoning?

>>96532438
What does "final boss" mean? Did you mean to post this on /v/?

>>96515791 (OP)
Split the defense into three parts:
-Dodge
-Parry/Block
-Armor
Heavy armor, overloading, bad equipment all can get you penalties on Dodge and Parry.

One roll, then compare it to the best defense, margin of success determines how much damage you deal. This way you can easily model situations where the victim couldn't protect themselves actively, where their opponent is super strong and so on, while still using the same roll. For example if a knight is fighting a giant with a metal club said knight will want to remove armor so that his dodge would be as high as possible since giant would easily crumple his armor as a beer can.

>>96532438
Well?

>>96532438
Trolling is against the rules. You have 12 hours to answer my question.

>>96532517
>if a knight is fighting a giant with a metal club said knight will want to remove armor so that his dodge would be as high as possible
eh, sounds kinda gamey.

Like, I've never read a story where a fictional character ever did this. Sure, you have swift guys saying that the armor would only slow them down but you don't get armored knightly types foregoing armor, which is presumably their preferred fighting style, for more dodge.

>>96531725
>Soldiers commonly don't bother wearing steel plates
Those are soldiers who die first when shrapnel and bullets start flying.

>>96532702
It is somewhat gamey, but it mostly relates to superhuman levels of power and speed. Ultimately game should be fun and internally consistent, not super realistic. Especially if said knight at higher levels of power carriers like 300 pounds of steel in armor.

Though in stories you mostly get the likes of Conan and knights removing armor when they need to climb or swim, not fight.

STOP FIGHTING

>>96532724
Those are soldiers who go into special forces*

>>96532724
Steel plates cause insane fragmentation and spalling
Ever shoot a metal target? If you make the mistake of putting a cardboard target next to one you can see the sheer amount of bullet fragmentation when the cardboard gets Swiss cheesed by it. Wear a steel plate and that Swiss cheese is your chin and limbs

>>96521074
>Dex determines AC ( Was I agile enough to dodge that hit?), Armour determines DR ( If I did get hit, does my armour save me?)
>On the giving side of the violence, Dex bonus to hit, str bonus to damage.

tell me you hate martials without telling me you hate martials

>>96532807
That's why they're angled, in a carrier, and have an anti-spall coating.

>>96532817
The carrier does nothing. Plus steel is just so much worse again AP and even semi-AP like M855. Just buy real ceramic level IV plates instead of poorfag steel

>>96532833
Carriers drastically reduce spalling, you are wrong and an armorlet lul

>>96532847
Stick it in a IIIA carrier and then maybe, some shitty piece of nylon won't do shit

>>96531725
Ceramics do fine against most rifle threats but you really shouldn't do III or special rifle threat plates, just go with IV

>>96515791 (OP)
Wfrp2e

>>96532355
Yeah, we were, but yeah, you're retarded so I guess the easy things are hard for you to understand.

So I forgive you for being retarded.

>>96532871
Nope still wrong, you lose.

>>96532948
Don't get shot with M855A1 wearing that shitty AR500 plate of yours then, it'll go straight through.

>>96532957
Nah I'll be fine, you'd die though kek

>>96533053
What are you wearing armor for if you can tank M855A1 without it
At any rate, ditch the shitty poorfag plate, you'll be better off

>>96533059
Looks like you had an ESL moment there anon kek. The only reason anyone wouldn't run steel plates is because they're out of shape and can't handle a little extra weight.

>>96533065
Ok well look up that InRange video on M855A1 and AR500 and see the neat hole right through
>Karl
I know but him being a commie doesn't magically change the properties of ammo and armor

>>96533074
>>96533065
1 INCH THICK STEEL ARMOR!

FUCK YOUR BULLETS!! STRENGTHLETS GO HOME!!

https://youtu.be/AtopxCjs518?si=KacvZGrfvHVbC7Oi&t=115

>>96533083
Fuck yo 1 inch plate

>>96533102
>not steel
>not an inch thick
*yawn*

post the source so I can see what it actually is.

>>96533119
It's hardened steel
The thing is that the ammo used was also 20mm

>>96533128
nice, got a source on that?

That aside, with 20mm I get the feeling the only infantry that are going to be using them while still on the move are the kinds that are strong enough to be decked out in the kinds of armor that you need a 20mm to beat.

Kinda ironic with how guns are meant to be the great equalizer but it'll just end up creating a new elite.

>>96533173
No because the source is me at the range in September 2019
Not my 20mm obvs

>>96532702
Games aren't stories, hope this helps

>>96532438
What's your reasoning?

>>96515791 (OP)
Does the one in the top left give a bonus vs firearms?

>>96532702
>Like, I've never read a story where a fictional character ever did this. Sure, you have swift guys saying that the armor would only slow them down but you don't get armored knightly types foregoing armor, which is presumably their preferred fighting style, for more dodge.
Goblin Slayer kinda does this. The MC is a heavily armored fighter, but he does stuff like sawing off the horns of his helmet and only using a buckler as a shield because he figures it's easier to fight in cramped dungeons that way.

>>96515791 (OP)
I like both together. Like in GURPS 3e and L5R 4e.

>>96532815
>tell me you hate martials without telling me you hate martials
Somehow it works perfectly fine in say WEGd6, GURPS, Fuzion, Silhouette and many other systems. Because stats and skills actually matter a lot there. You don't need to expend your advantages/feats on supporting like 80% of your damage output. Just having higher than average stats and skills is enough to murder people.

Hell, even in M&M that is D&D derived you can build a pure strength character capable of so much destruction your biggest problem is not damage output, but making sure you don't accidentally blow up the whole city.

>>96526633
Only the shield and headdress provided any real protection for the animal warriors. The really useful Mezoamerican armor was their cotton tunics. The Conquistadors switched out to them under many circumstances - lighter, cooler in the heat, more effective against the native weapons than a cuirass.
>you came to the wrong harbor, motherfucker.

>>96532438
What's your reasoning?

>>96517721
They're samey because they amount to the same thing. Adding a different word for flavor doesn't actually change how they play out.

>>96533796
A more western relevant example is probably ASoIaF - Bronn's duel in the mountain keep for Tyrion's life where he deliberately wears lighter armor to have better speed/agility and endurance.

>>96527075
>details
Thanks, I like the ideas behind it but that sounds complicated. I think I'm going to write up a simple injuries chart for my homebrew D&D, you go to zero HP, you roll for the effect.
>>96527328
>>"banded mail," not brigandine
Banded armor is canonically Lorica Segmentata because D&D is originally Dark Ages.
>>96527348
Jack of Plates is the basis, ironically it's one of the best torso armors of the time.
>>96527879
>>96528042
>consist of leather backed with five non-adjacent steel strips each attached by a profusion of rivets
That's D&D splint mail not studded leather.

>>96516121
>if it's getting this autistic then it's going FULL autism
Man, I really wish fewer games followed this line of thinking. Sometimes I just want a good mid-crunch game that is a little more complex than straight AC but doesn't go whole hog.

>>96527879
>Instead plate was something that first had to be developed and once developed it had to be available and affordable
Yeah but plate is a thing from the Mycenaean period in the 1500s BCE.
And small, shitty, individual plates have been used for just as long. A popular example are how the Roman conscripts often armored themselves with a metal chest plate.

It's not hard to make. If something only has studs, it's probably not armor, and it's definitely not stand alone. It might be an archer's brace, or given the bas reliefs it's probably meant to go with Mail armor, since the only depiction of the armor you described is of a guy wearing it underneath mail sleeves.
Oh and, needless to say, we only have bracers and nothing else.

>>96525394
>being able to dodge sword swings is anime
>evading an attack you can see coming is anime

>>96515791 (OP)
I tend to prefer damage reduction since making it a defense value ends up leaving no mechanical distinction between being a dodgy fuck or a tanky fuck, and if you're not even bothering with that distinction how am I supposed to expect any other distinctions?

>>96527259
shadowrun actually does do this, with the difficulty of actually landing the hit being its own dice roll, followed by evasion as an active defense that uses your combat pool, and then you roll for damage resistance vs. weapon strength minus your armor value.

>>96527879
>They consist of leather backed with five non-adjacent steel strips each attached by a profusion of rivets.
Except that's not what DnD's studded elather is. That stuff is just the leather and the rivets, no internal plates. So nope, no redemption for DnD there.

>Depictions of studded armour with much larger diameter studs or discs, not always backed with metal strips, have been known about for a much longer time.
Yeah, interpreting artistic shorthand as exact realism is where we got a lot of the 19th century armor nonsense from.

>Studs or discs with gaps between them ...
You're trying to make the case for studded leather when the Estonian find you mentioned is right there to show you the truth? (I guess you're too busy wanking off over your own magnificence.) It's the metal splints that are the star of the show, not the studs.

>>96528663
>I was mostly joking, I prefer maille when referring to "chainmail" and "mail" when referring to scale mail or other kinds of mail because autism.
Dude, that's stuff nearly as bad as the studded leather. Mail is mail, that's it. There's no need for "chain-", since there's no other types to differentiate it from. Scale armour is not scale mail. Plate armour is not plate mail. All of that nonsense comes form the same latrine-adjacent well that Gygax got his studded leather and ring mail and banded mail and so on from.

>>96535563
>Except that's not what DnD's studded elather is.

>>96534948
They don't amount to the same thing. You don't even know what the rules are for each of those traits.

>>96535284
dodging it by stepping back isn't anime
ducking under a swing is unrealistic

>>96536366
>ducking under a swing is unrealistic

>>96533584
Games tell their stories through their mechanics.

If those stories are dumb your mechanics are dumb.

Sorry you had to find out like this.

No, games don't tell stories at all. Games aren't stories.

storyshitters should be raped

>>96536497
Yes they do. Games aren't stories, they make stories.

The story that a house cat can kill a commoner, etc.

Nope.

>>96536575
Yup. They do.

and in reply to your next post: They do.

>>96532702
>sounds kinda gamey
Fuck.
I hate it when I sit down to play a game, and it's just too much like a game.
I hate games.
Games shouldn't be like games.

Wrong, you lose the argument

>>96536609
>fuck, i hate when i play a game and it tells a shit story
>games should tell good stories
ftfy

Games aren't stories and they don't tell stories.

>>96536706
>>96536592

Nope, you lose.

>>96532438
What's your reasoning?

>>96536416
this is artwork
do you have any videos where people dodge like that in a fight, out of interest?

I like how a cool thread about the variety of armor mechanics that can exist in ttrpgs has devolved into shitflinging about dnd studded leather or some shit. What a high quality turn of events.

I've been debating armor mechanics for my own system. I was going to use roll to hit as a start, but this makes me wary of gatekeeping damage behind another dice roll as successive probabilities start shrinking the odds of success rather dramatically. On the other hand, rolling superior to flat numbers and I think substantially more fun. I'm not aiming to use a bunch of modifiers or even damage/hp, but rather something closer to a #successes against armor = damage. While I considered contested rolls, I think that works against large scale combat with many enemies which I would like to allow for. Maybe taking the sum of damage dice and using to to determine the degree of success against armor would be better.

>>96536958
Just use one roll per group, obviously

>>96536497
>>96536511
>>96536575
>>96536617
>>96536731
i'm curious, are posts like these meant to convince anybody, look like they won, or just to get a last word in for the poster's peace-of-mind?

You lose.

>>96536980
NTA, but sort of elegant really. You could make groups of enemies use the largest defense among them as the target. Makes having enemies who focus on being defensive effective.

you don't "use the largest defense", a group of enemies is defined as having a particular defense

>>96537052
What? Like the group has a DV as a group? If you're doin' macro battles I suppose that makes sense, but if you're doing standard size with multi target that seems like semantics more than anything.

What do you mean it "seems like semantics"?

When you make a group of enemies, you assign them a threat level, and they use that threat level when doing any challenge rolls. Attack bonus based on group size as per usual. Pretty simple.

>>96536980
>>96537047
Hmm, maybe. I think it depends rather radically based on how one thinks about groups of enemies. I'll use fantasy enemies as a base example. For something like a swarm of flesh eating rats, using a single roll makes sense, and could possibly shrink the swarm based on the number of wounds inflicted. For something like a goblin ambush with many targets in various positions, I don't really think roll per group works, and contested rolls would slow things down. Then again, if many enemies are spread out, then it's less likely your hitting a lot of them at the same time, so maybe it wouldn't matter. I think in terms of using AOE like a cannon blast or fireball against such a group then roll per group is a good way of settling it. The key is that I want things to be manageable from the game master side. I would love it if game masters could throw 20 dudes at the play group and not have to be worried about combat taking an hour as they slowly move through all their rolls and counter rolls.

Yes, obviously groups can split into smaller groups. I don't know why you think you need any special rules for that.

>>96537072
So every enemy has the same function? What would even be the point in the concept of "group" then? Might as well be a single foe.

>>96537087
This is my rationale with largest defensive guy among targets covers for all targets. It makes sense from enemy and player side to have the guy with the big shield running head long into the fireball.

No, they certainly might not as well be a single foe. A single foe doesn't lose its attack bonus from individuals being defeated. A single foe can't split into smaller groups to attack multiple targets. You shouldn't need this spelled out for you.

>>96537105
>This is my rationale with largest defensive guy among targets covers for all targets. It makes sense from enemy and player side to have the guy with the big shield running head long into the fireball.
What about a giant spider monster, with a swarm of tiny spiderlings? I wouldn't want the swarm to use the large one's DV, unless they were specifically hiding behind it. My concern over mechanics is this:
>DM has 20 bandits with crossbows firing at players
>DM has to roll to hit for each
>DM has to roll for damage for each
>Players (if using contested rolls) now need to roll their armor save or whatever against each bandit as well
>Players blast an area hitting 6 of the bandits
>DM can just use the highest DV for success if units are of similar type, but it a mixed composition, it doesn't make sense for a fragile archer to benefit from a nearby warriors heavy armor.
I want players to have fun doing damage, and to enjoy rolling dice. Summing damage dice for degree's of success fixes the issue of compounding probabilities of failure, but can be tricky because it uses a bunch of thresholds. This is because my system doesn't really use a strict Damage/HP pool (I'm trying to avoid bloat), but rather uses a smaller number of HP dice to allow damage dice to benefit players without forcing pools up, and to reduce swing. Rolling a 1 on a 1d12 sucks ass, and requires that HP pools be balanced around the upper end of numbers. Ideally I'd use something like "weapon has 3 damage dice, roll 3d10 against DV of 4, you rolled a 2, a 5, and an 8, you inflict 2 wounds" but that's where the probability problem comes from.

>>96537176
for the big spider I use the powers from the Spider (Blending, Slay - Toxin, Wall-Crawling), and the physical capabilities of a suitably large creature like a rhino or elephant, the swarm of spiders is a group of minions with whatever threat level seems appropriate

>>96537176
For the bandits, just roll once, and for each player targeted, one defense roll. On the player turn, they only need to be separated into as many groups as make sense. For example, if they've split up and are flanking on either side, then they would be two groups for the purposes of player interaction.

Btw, for certain types of attacks or effects, I'd consider allowing treating them as one group, so that damage could carry over from to the other. Super Speed, Area, Irritant, Dazzle, etc depending on the situation in the game.

>>96537114
But if you "break into smaller groups" enough to get down to one dude you'd need the stats for the individuals anyways. It makes no sense why you'd need the distinction of "this is the group's DV" rather than "the group uses this guy's DV cause it's biggest". They achieve the same function, but one is infinitely easier to scale up and down the group into a smaller or larger one with due to statistics being personalized.

>>96537176
>What about a giant spider monster, with a swarm of tiny spiderlings? I wouldn't want the swarm to use the large one's DV, unless they were specifically hiding behind it.
This is the rationale though? Like if several tiny spiders are in range of a wide AoE attack, wouldn't they move to hide under the big one since they fit?

Like in your example, the heavy warrior is probably there to provide shield cover for the archers, otherwise why is he not in the mix with the other heavy front line units? Sure, at a conceptual level you're worried the shield guy and giant spider means they can't hurt the archers or little spiders, but this lends to variance in player attacks rather than specialization. Fireball won't work cause the shield guy easily blocks it. But Chain Lightning might be a single target ability that auto chains against close by targets with the same attack and damage rolls. Might not hurt the shield guy still, but if all archers have comparable or equal DV, they get zapped even with him there.

>>96537261
No, not really. Whether it's one minion or twenty, you use the same rules.

>>96537266
Is this from something? Cause if so I've never even read it, let alone played it.

>>96537278
So what?

Oh you're trolling. Carry on then.

>>96537291
No. Explain why it matters whether you've heard of a rule before in a discussion about which hypothetical rules you should integrate into a game.

>>96531653
>>half-plate
>No, that's a breastplate
What do you guys think Half-Plate armor looks like?

Usage is meaning. Half plate is anything you call half plate.

>>96537301
Sorry, perhaps the wording was too vague to grasp meaning; what's the source so I can read more about this?

No. I don't shill.

>>96537237
This actually gets me thinking; maybe instead of saves against effects, players could roll for effectiveness? For example, maybe a player creates a dazzle effect over an area, then rolls a d6 for how many targets are effected. If the player rolls a 4, they could affect up to 4 targets of their choice in that area. That way the DM doesn't have to roll saves of potentially different difficulties for multiple targets in a group.
>>96537261
Hmm, yeah, I see your point. It really depends on how we qualify groups though. Is an archer and a warrior a "group" for the purposes of DV calculation? Maybe not. But I'd argue that a squad of soldiers probably is. In the spider situation, I suppose you could just consider the big spider and the spiderlings to be two separate groups.
>>96537303
Guts from Berserk (mercenary armor).

So you're trolling. Carry on then.

>>96537332
A swarm does typically run that purpose, so that's how it landed in my head, yes. And why not for the arches and soldier combo? They don't necessarily need the same functionality? Hell, you could make "Shield Bearers and Archers" as a group a swarm if you're going for those kinds of numbers.

Nope, not trolling.

>>96537359
I'm terms of numbers, I kinda was thinking about an almost action-rpg feel. Having a bunch of ghouls swarm up over the bridge a group is on, or having a group of alien machines descend and begin firing indiscriminately. Obviously TTRPG's and video games have radically different feels, but I feel like the genera is typically divided into games like 5e that function well (you know, relatively) with small numbers, and wargames, which can accommodate very large numbers. I would like to build something that's sort of in the middle.

>>96537388
When I run situations like this in my games, the way I do it typically just depends on the specifics. Like for your alien machines example, let's say it's half a dozen tripods from war of the worlds. I probably don't want each machine to go down from 1 damage, so I'll treat them using the group rules, but still giving each machine its own Health value. As long as they're all near each other, Area attacks and effects can affect them like a group, and I just use one defense roll for them, applying the result to each individually. Of course, rolls are instantaneous and successes automatically counted, so treating them all individually wouldn't be any more difficult.

>>96537388
This sort of thing might be best done in waves unless you want enemy foes to be easy to fell in high numbers. In the former case, your giant spider might be paired with some mid sized spiders instead of the little ones. But the little ones swarm out of one of the mid ones upon death like babies escaping from a dead mother. In the latter case, The big spider is the one with a higher threshold to kill, meaning that even partial damage to an area with a fireball where it provides cover for the other spiders could see one of the mid spiders and the whole swarm still go down. The resolution still equates the same, but how damage and splash are handled is what you're concerning yourself with there more.

>>96537303
D&D 5E defines it as:
>"Half plate consists of shaped metal plates that cover most of the wearer's body. It does not include leg protection beyond simple greaves that are attached with leather straps."

So I think this image + greaves.

>>96532438
What's your reasoning?

>>96537426
>>96537303
Valter's armor from Fire Emblem works too. You could add a helmet as well.

>>96537416
>how damage and splash are handled is what you're concerning yourself with there more.
That's actually a good point. Maybe Splash damage should just use different resolution mechanics that direct damage. Then groups don't matter so much. Rolling defense for 10 guys getting hit by a mortar isn't very efficient, especially given that a mortar is enough to ruin anyone's day. Maybe instead of rolling against armor values, splash could instead roll for number of wounds directly and then be distributed evenly across a cluster of enemies. Whereas with a direct attack weapon damage dice are rolled against armor value to determine the number of wounds taken. Unless I use armor as soak instead of threshold.

>>96537463
Wrong pic- but that one works too.

A slash could break a bone or do nothing at all depending on how it connects with armor, damage reduction is stupid unless you make the system unplayably complicated or use something like Tyranny's system of miss graze hit crit (tyranny the computer game)
Miss chance as a representation of taking damage or not for both dodge and armor is good enough.

>>96537467
In splash's case I'd roll normally, but splash deals auto half on miss. Simplify things without changing resolution too much. DR would affect even half damage so armored units can still be nice and spongy without giving full coverage to anything they're trying to defend.

so fiddly and unnecessary lol

>>96515791 (OP)
Neither. Armor represents a modifier to defense checks, with each type offering different modifiers and the heaviest armor also reducing the Movement of the wearer.

The system I've been tweaking lately just got a big overhaul where all defense checks only use the skill modifier at base (0-5) plus the Armor Skill (0-5) plus (or minus) the armor's modifiers (-3 to +3, with most armor having bonuses and penalties based on its weight and what type of armor it is).

The system has resistance ranks against damage, but that's mostly gained through either Enchanted Armor or Class features/Species abilities.

>>96515847
This is also good for d6 pool systems, best I've seen it done was Digimon Digital Adventures where Armor can't reduce damage below 1, and each success over the target's defense pool successes is +1 bonus damage - though 1.4's Armor Piercing Quality is busted as hell.

>>96532438
What's your reasoning?

>>96532529
r/thisagedpoorly

Not at all.

>>96532438
NTA but generally systems like that operate with DR instead of to-hit and use dicepools with success ranges, and solo boseses tend to get 50-100% more HP and/or additional turns to match the party's in combat so they don't get action economy'd to death. They also tend to have unique powers or abilities that the players have no access to.

>>96532438
Do you kill the final boss in one round in D&D? I don't understand your question.

>>96532438
Why do you think this would be the case?

>>96535563
>fictional setting has fictional armor RREEEEE
This particular flavor of autism is really peculiar. I'd get it if this was in an actual historical game set in actual timeframe in actual real world culture.

>>96534815
Yeah, but I only know of the Mezos dipping their cotton armor into salts to harden them, and I wonder if you can push that tech further.

>>96537426
Like 1600s Reiter armor then I guess

>>96536982
It's one of the resident autists. He's just stimming.
>>96537498
You're usually wearing layered armor. So a slash that doesn't slip past the armor or doesn't penetrate is highly unlikely to do more than a minor bruise (if we're talking about at least brigantine, plate or similiar armor).
You'd have to use special weapons for this kind of damage (which also does damage the armor). Damage reduction is perfectly appropriate and special weapons get a pierce quality or similiar. Characters that have an obscene amount of strength who can still hurt you through armour with regular weapons should just have a way to get individual modifiers, if your system and setting goes for this kinds of stuff.

>>96532438
Why do you think that would be the case?

>>96538359
The salt, dry, salt cycle is really effective because it adds minerals, tightens the cotton and makes the whole better at handling blades and bullets.
In reality? You might get better results with a different mineral salt like magnesium chloride, or dope it with some kind of metal.
In fantasy? Magic nanites or super-cotton.

>>96532438
Why do you think that would be the case?

>>96532438
Why do you think that would be the case?

>>96541993
I like that—also, rubbers and other tree saps and resins. These things are super underused in fantasy.

>>96527328
Leather armor was a thing, like for example rhino hides were used in China and I believe other parts of Asia. There was likely also wooden armor among native Americans.
Studden leather is a meme tho, clearly they were confused on what the brigandine was.
Also, pavise may be used in combat, if it's smaller version. Look up Lithuanian pavise. Unless you mean them actual cover pavises used in combat.

>>96546691
Also, Kiribati islander armor, fucking weird, pufferfish helmets.

>>96532438
Why do you think that would be the case?

>>96527328
I'm not trying to be historically accurate thoughever

>>96522509
>Not a wearable one.
High level martials in very popular games like DnD or Pathfinder are many levels above super human.

>>96536488
>Games tell their stories
Nah.

>>96515847
this is how you get housecats mauling people to death in vampire the masquerade since a cat has high dexterity and the average person isn't combat trained so their dodge isn't high, bonus successes translating to damage results in a lot of kind of silly interactions. You can also reliably kill a grizzly bear with .22 just by aiming real hard since the difference in damage stats of guns is less important than getting a giant pile of successes with accuracy

>>96548429
>this is how you get housecats mauling people to death in vampire the masquerade
Has literally never happened RAW, no.
This does happen in D&D though.
>You can also reliably kill a grizzly bear with .22 just by aiming real hard
You realize you can reliably kill a grizzly with .22 in real life by "aiming real hard", yeah?
https://cowboystatedaily.com/2024/08/04/grandma-who-killed-huge-grizzly-with-1-shot-from-22-still-amazes-wyoming-hunters/

Some excerpts for you.
>When the bear came up to within just a few yards, Twin took deliberate aim at a tiny weak point in the side of the bear’s head and fired.
>The grizzly reportedly dropped instantly, stone dead, after the first shot.
>Hunters might never stop arguing about what the perfect rifle cartridge is, but Twin’s story illustrates that precision accuracy is what really counts, Jones said.
>“All the online ‘gun experts’ argue about the best calibers or guns for self-defense, and especially against bears. As a 30-plus year police firearms instructor, I’ve always said shot placement is the most important and effective aspect of stopping any attack.”

>>96515791 (OP)
Armor as damage reduction is superior to armor as armor class. Fantasycraft has armor as DR, with everybody having a "defense score" that works like touch AC, and every class has a defense bonus like a base attack bonus. It's great; I'd change my 3.5 houserules to use it if it wasn't such a huge change.

>>96548478
Emphasis on the word "reliably", in WoD you can kill a grizzly by throwing a boomerang or pocket knife at its ass simply by staring at it real hard. It's actually easier to kill a bear with a boomerang than a .22 since you can add strength to thrown weapons but not guns.....

>>96548522
>Emphasis on the word "reliably"
Yes, anon. You can reliably kill a grizzly with a .22 if you aim hard enough. Are you saying it'd be impossible for you to point and shoot at something if you had all the time in the world? Are you that retarded?
>you can add strength to thrown weapons
Oh so you haven't played the game at all, you're just a D&D turd trolling. Throwing is Dexterity+Athletics retard.

>>96548576
>Throwing is Dexterity+Athletics retard.
you add strength and potence to thrown weapon damage in vtm idk what system you're thinking of where you don't. Guns have fixed damage statistics, melee and thrown weapons have a damage value+STR. you don't use strength for accuracy but it still applies to damage.

this means doing a few pushups(not enough to be an olympain or anything, just slightly stronger than the average obese american) and staring at a bear's ass real hard means you can reliably kill it with a boomerang. Easier than with a gun, since .22 "plinking rifles" have the minimum damage possible of guns at just 1 base damage. This is very silly and WoD is not a serious system. You can throw a wooden club at a bear and kill it easier than with a gun.

>>96549107
That's the melee weapons chart, retard. Try again.

>.22 "plinking rifles" have the minimum damage possible of guns at just 1 base damage
The lowest damage for guns is 4. Try again nogames.

>>96549107
>>96548522
>>96548429
Throwing weapons do not add successes to damage in VTM.
>You can throw a wooden club at a bear and kill it easier than with a gun.
You cannot as your pool to hit it will be lower since you can't aim, you'll do bashing damage, and you'll do lower actual damage than a gun would.
You should really try reading the rules next time anon.

>>96515791 (OP)
GURPS

>>96549202
...Sucks.

>>96549149
>That's the melee weapons chart
thrown weapons still add strength to damage

>>96549107
Ooh, that table makes me think of difficulties and called shots. I need to put that into my game somehow.

>>96549462
Nah, try again nogames.