Thread 96573830

>WOTC says evil races are no longer a thing
>2025+
>still no official Gnoll race

Why? are they stupid and lazy? i need it to be official as a lot of DM's are allergic to anything homebrew (unless they do it to fuck over players)

It's more of a decision paralysis. WotC can't decide whether they want to keep expanding upon 5e (5.5) or move on to 6e. Transition from 4e to 5e was easy because 4e was universally despised, but now they don't want to take the leap but also don't want to keep piling more effort in something that will be abandoned soon-ish.

>>96573849
>4e was universally despised
>constantly best selling rpg line in the world for it's entire book release run
Only on this site full of 3.x holdouts is this provably false statement trotted out.

>>96573858
False, you see it on sites like GiantITP too

Why did you make a new thread and bitch to everyone about shit we don't care about when you could've just gone to 5e general and bitched to other retards who care about that garbage?

>>96573858
4e failed so hard it was shitcanned after there years and D&D was just a dead brand for three more until 5e was released, who do you think you're going to fool with your revisionist bullshit?

>>96574142
cuz its a botted thread the moment it goes off it comes back in 1 sec

>>96574046
Except you don't.
>>96573830 (OP)
Post proof

Gnolls aren't human looking, so the evil races thing probably isn't as much an issue here.

>>96575700
It would be funny if we could get gnolls to be considered a facsimile of some race or indigenous tribe or whatever, in the same way that /pol/ got the OK hand gesture to signal white power. Orcs are already black to WotC - and are now converging on being Hispanic - why not have gnolls be... I don't know, Aztec or Asmut?

Mind you, I don't want something like this to actually happen, but can gnolls really get any lower than what's been done to them in 5e?

>>96573830 (OP)
consider killing yourself furfag

>>96576419
Didn't sjws try to retroactively condemn the hyenas from Lion King being racist cause they got Whoopi Goldberg to voice one of them?

>>96573858
It wasn't UNIVERSALLY despised, but due to its immense divergence from the franchise norms and repeatedly screwing up campaign-layer mechanics to connect encounters in any kind of narrative had carry-over almost solely due to brand name, to such an extent that it actually LOST the "best selling RPG line" title for a bit (albeit in a sizable content draught) to PF1e. So when the brand moved on to 5e, there was almost zero residual playerbase because the "proper RPG community" had no deep interest and the normies followed the releases.

>>96573830 (OP)
Wasn't there a notion that having races with inherent mechanical bonuses (or penalties) is, well, "racist", and all PCs should follow the same stat array with race being just a cosmetic because "everyone has the same potential" or something along those lines.

Also fem gnoll yeenis, yay or nay?

>>96573830 (OP)
Gnolls are fiends now, sort of material realm demons born from hyena's that ate Yeenoghu's flesh. So likely never going to be a PC race.

>>96576558
That's mostly a cope/virtue signalling answer. The real reason is most casual people have always hated restrictions like that because it interferes with the kind of character they want to create.

>>96573830 (OP)
Even they know to keep your yiffing kind away.

>>96573830 (OP)
I thought 5e's gnolls were all hyper evil.

>>96573858
shut up and hate with us

>>96573858
it got rightfully shitter-shattered by PF1e my guy, 4e was an abortion of a system. The consequences of 4e continue to this day with PF continuing to drain DnD's market share little by little

Explain how something that looks like this can be good. Orcs have excuses due to shit like Wartcraft and their appearance changing over time in humanizing them as they look and act more human.

>>96577352
Hyenas are vital to the ecosystems they live in as scavengers

>>96574152
4e lasted for 6 years tho?

>>96577075
>it got rightfully shitter-shattered by PF1e my guy,
It didn't.
Paizofags took sales info from only specialty stores for a single quarter in a timeframe where wotc wasn't putting out anything and go "SEE! IT OUTSOLD D&D!"

But I want you to pause and ask yourself something Anon: If Pathfinder was the number 1 selling RPG, do you think Paizo wouldn't have shouted that shit from the rooftops?

>>96577352
Outward appearance does not reflect inner character.

For example, you look like a human being when you clearly possess the soul of an ape.

>>96577352
Explain why something that looks like that has to be inherently evil

I prefer 4e to 5e but unfortunately I’m in the minority.

>>96577442
>>96577453
You want complex characters then use humans and demihumans, beastmen are irredeemable devil-spawn meant to be killed.

>>96577508
>Beast men are evil because uh.... they just are.
Ape-souled subhuman.

>>96577536
>in most media they are found in service to evil powers
>if they aren't, they are still usually waging wars/attacks against humans, elves, etc.
>realistically, as far as the imagined sensibilities of fantasy cultures based upon human, strictly or even loosely, go, the "civilized" races likely won't tolerate such beings so divergent and animalistic living among them.
>Orcs, goblinoids, lizardfolk, and ogres are often established enemies of dwarves and elves, good races
>Minotaurs, in the only setting which I am aware that they have civilization (dragonlance) have sargonnas, the god of conquest and consort of takhisis, the chief evil deity, as their tutelary deity, and they make war against humans regularly
>The Minotaur of myth was born from a queen bewitched by a god to fuck a bull. It ate human flesh, was trapped in a labyrinth, and was slain by a human hero.
>in the east, Yaoguai and Yokai which fill similar roles are often antagonistic and prey upon humans
I'm sure there are many, many more examples.

>>96577433
>Paizofags took sales info from only specialty stores for a single quarter in a timeframe where wotc wasn't putting out anything and go "SEE! IT OUTSOLD D&D!"
Are you seriously trying to claim there were no DnD products in the store? As usual, the only way 4e fags can salvage their booty-blasted bitch feelings is to lie.

>>96573830 (OP)
Because wotc knows the only people who want gnolls are disgusting furry futa faggots.

>>96577672
Holy shit I can't believe you don't understand this shit. You're genuinely trying so hard to miss the point because you've emotionally invested yourself in the idea that there was this mass rejection of 4e. It's fucking pathetic. But here we go.

So first, let's talk about the scope of things. The data in question was about game stores specifically. Specialty retailers that largely cater to an enthusiast market, rather than to a general audience. Which means you were leaving out your larger chains like Barnes and Noble, Walmart, Target. It also did not include online sales, which at the time would be primarily but not entirely Amazon. It also excluded digital sales and subscriptions. Large chunks of the market just weren't included in the data because they were going through different distribution channels than the ones being asked. I'd also mention that ICv2's data was based on interviews, rather than numbers. Not to say that people were lying, just that it was a bit more vibes based.

But then let's talk about the actual way that book publishing works. This applies to D&D as a whole, but it's really just true of all books (in fact it applies to most forms of media.) You are going to see the largest spike in sales around the initial release. Some things have longer tails than others, but it's very rare for something to see growth in sales after the initial release.

So. With that in mind, let's try to put that atrophied brain of yours to work. You are dealing with specialty retailers, selling to an audience of primarily enthusiasts, and wizards of the coast is not releasing anything new for 4th edition at the time. Can you see why D&D might have taken a sales hit? The kind of people going into The Sorcerer's Game Palace and Comic Shop to buy things are the kind of people who wouldn't be buying a copy of the 4th edition core rulebooks 3 years after it came out. Those people already have the books.

>>96573830 (OP)
Theres many reasons I dont play 5e, this is one.

You could always try playing PF2e, it has official "gnolls" (renamed to kholo) as a core race and they're pretty neat in the abilities they get. Theyre also a Str/Int race with a natural attack and darkvision. Also no stupid demonic zombie lore.

>>96577352
Hes a gladiator and that's his work wear. Outside of it he's a poet and kind soul who tends a small garden.
Its remarkably easy to see the good in something "ugly" or "monstrous" if you put in even the smallest of effort.

>>96576558
> fem gnoll yeenis, yay or nay?
Yay but it either is the full pseudo or a very large clit that's essentially a yeenis (with additional "pseudoscrutum" labia). Nothing else would be appropriate for a hyenafolk.

>>96577075
The only thing 4e did wrong was have clear rules, and this was in direct response to the rules-lawyering cuntery that infested 3e (lmao drown up to zero HP, no rule says you can't act while dead, you can't take epic feats because attack bonus caps at 20, 1d43 damage whip because of a typo).

>>96577442
Leave him alone, he just got done reading his first real book and he has a hard time understanding nuance.

>>96573849
yeah hard to write D&D books when you are busy celebrating israel's assassination of charlie kirk on social media

>>96577433
Your overall point is correct, but
>one quarter
It was much longer than that. But the data still goes in the direction you want. All this data comes from ICv2. There's issues with it, but it's the best we have so we run with it.

The first time pathfinder gets the #1 spot in in Q3 of 2010 (q3 is summer.) Where in Paizo tied with WoTC. Q3 for Pathfinder would have been the GM Guide, Advanced Player's Guide, the back half of the Kingmaker books and a handful of other books. Q3 for D&D was Monster Manual 3, Psionic Powers and Dark Sun. Plus, the other pathfinder core books are still pretty new. Speaking from anecdote - I knew plenty of people who did not buy Pathfinder until the GM Guide came out because they did not want to buy an "incomplete set."

Go into Q4 for Autumn and D&D is back on top. This corresponds with the launch of Essentials. D&D remains at #1 in Q1 (winter) of 2011. Paizo only really unseats them come Q2 (spring) of 2011. In that time, wotc put out Heroes of Shadow and the monster Vault. Compared to Paizo putting out Ultimate Magic, The Carrion Crown, a couple adventure modules and a few smaller books.

There's a pattern here. WotC is putting out a drip feed of books, while Paizo has their foot on the gas printing out all sorts of stuff. I'm not going to do quarter by quarter breakdowns.

But here's the wild thing. The last 4e book comes out in q2 2012. D&D remains in the top 5 sellers until spring 2014, and it pops back up in summer of 2014 in the #2 spot. I want to make sure this is understood - these were 4e sales when wotc was not publishing books and actively telling people that the new edition was coming. 4e was in the top 5 without trying.

But then the conversation stops there because fall of 2014 happens, D&D 5th edition comes out, and it runs rampant over the market. After that, all ICv2 information is paywalled and is harder to discuss.

>>96576419
Hyenas are in fact African coded, since cave hyenas went extinct in Europe shortly after humans left Africa. Werehyenas are a feature of real African myths, such as the buda in Ethiopia.

Admittedly they all have bad associations.

>>96578063
So one thing that I always think about this is WotC's main product: magic the gathering.

If you look at how 4th edition presented itself mechanically, you can see the influence of Magic on it. This isn't necessarily a bad thing. Magic is a fun game.

But one thing that didn't make the jump over from Magic to D&D during 4th edition was the flavorful presentation. A lot of the abilities in 4e are clear and functional in what they do. Reading the card will explain the card. But they're often lacking a bit of the flavor that gets people excited.

When people talk about 4th edition feeling like a video game, often world of warcraft, this is actually what they mean. What they ACTUALLY think it feels like is Magic the Gathering but without the flavor.They haven't had to play Magic with CW01, a 1W 2/2 with the set mechanic.

>>96578227
Ironically 4e was the only D&D game to not get a rules-accurate videogame adaption.

>>96577352
He could close his mouth and stop snarling.

Most animals don't spend all day baring their teeth. That's why they have lips.

>>96573830 (OP)
>says evil races are no longer a thing
>look inside
>evil races are still a thing, they're just declared fundamentally different from proper humanoids so it's okay to consider them all evil
Goblins are now evil fey. Gnolls are now evil fiends. If they'd done this shit before WC3, they'd have made orcs evil aberrations or some shit.

I just think they are cool conceptually as a race of irredeemably evil pirates, scavengers, and marauders that hunt innpacks and pose a threat despite their lack of intelligence and technology. They are like what orcs should have been and they fit the generic mid level bad guy role really well.

>>96578249
Which is hilarious because that was 100% just corporate fuckery.

>>96578411
>Hasbro's restructuring meant they couldn't use MtG money to pay D&D bills like they did before
>Atari held the license and wouldn't scratch their balls with it unless WotC guaranteed them a bigger slice of the pie
>The VTT/digital library plan that was supposed to make the edition profitable fell through because the project lead murdered his ex-wife in a parking lot and then shot himself, and his work was incomprehensible spaghetti code
4e was in a rough place, videogame-wise.

>>96573858
4e sold well within non-RPG people. The old playerbase that liked 3.5 and even older editions despised it.

>>96578448
The Atari rights thing got more complicated because Atari was trying to set up a deal with Bandai Namco, who are Hasbro's main competition. So it was a huge fucking thing.