Thread 96578602

Street Brawl Edition

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>>96553173
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>White Wolf Wiki:
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>Thread Question
When we get to WoD6/whatever they call it, what will it be like? How will things change from now to them?

>>96578617
this is a depressing answer but the only fault i can find with it is that the samedi don't have necromancy as inclan in v20 anymore

>Sloppa OP
Grim.

>>96578602 (OP)
>v6
I imagine the “alt-right” will be an issue in camarilla and sabat. Anarchs will be out and out good guys/protagonists of the setting.

The masquerade is hanging on by a thread OR camarilla has weasled into FBI/CIA big Gov’t intel agencies and allows all but the most EGREGIOUS violations to be swept away. If not that, them every one’s a sewer-dwellar by now.

More of the same shit we got in v5 though, more characters named Fyre or some shit.
Oh, Tzimisce neonates being turned to embrace their trans natures will be canon more than Sasha Vykos already.

>>96578602 (OP)
You missed the general >>96561187

>>96578630
Fair but let's be real, Thanatosis is a necromancy path (and not a very good one) that's put into its own discipline for some reason. Technically the Nagaraja had "nihilistics" instead of necromancy for all of five minutes. Maybe it was to get people to actually want to play Giovanni.

>>96578803
>camarilla has weasled into FBI/CIA big Gov’t intel agencies and allows all but the most EGREGIOUS violations
This is why I'm still in love with the Tender arg. If vampires operated social media, every government in the world would tolerate reasonable vampires in exchange for that data.

>>96578946
in general all necromancy lines beside giovanni had their own shitty not quite necromancy discipline at some point like the lamia also had deimos the cappas had mortis (and the first version wasn't path magic) etc but the samedi are extra weird when it comes to that not just because somehow thanatosis of all things avoided being folded into necromancy, but because they also used to have thanatosis and necromancy together before v20

>>96578955
V5 had to handwave away all of the vampire moles in the government, big business, NGOs, etc to make their silly SI plotline even happen in the first place.

You're right though that the Tender thing was a weird stroke of genius in the otherwise dumpster fire development of Bloodlines 2. It's pretty much the only thing in the Paradox era that actually does something neat with vampires adapting to the modern era. And it's a much better angle to pursue than a hackneyed surveillance state plot which tries to force vampires into a role they're ill-suited for (the little guy victim).

The digital age was a false promise, rather than illuminate the truth all it's done is obfuscate it. People put worryingly personal information out for free and in order to hide the basics of who you are, you have to take many extra steps that most people don't have the time or energy to use. Of course some clever Ventrue and his Nosferatu coder partner in crime would set up an App with a backdoor for vampires to hunt idiots on dating apps. Given how many people use those for hook-ups, it creates a sinister blood doll pipeline. As far as I am concerned, the digital age should be a golden age for the Camarilla vampires.

>>96578602 (OP)
>AI
The Toreadors disdain it
The Changelings hate it
The Virtual Adepts deride it
The Technocracy promotes it
The Garou are livid about it

You are the reason for the Endless Winter.

>>96579232
I thought even the Technocracy hate it
Iteration X want humans to become machine, not machines to mimic humans
Syndicate would be against something that'll eventually obsolete all jobs, destroying the economy
NWO might like it, I guess

>>96579255
>Iteration X want humans to become machine, not machines to mimic humans
I was considering that, but considering how much that whole Convention jerks off Computer that it borders deity worship, I think they might have a positive stance

>Syndicate
A streamlined business is an efficient business!

>>96579232
>You are the reason for the Endless Winter.
and?

>>96579255
Iteration X loves that all the creative hippies are getting wiped out. Syndicate wants to enslave everyone and inflate your currency while pumping their own investments and make you work harder to afford it.

>>96579232
Cult of Ecstasy as well for the most part. Another thing they can talk about with Toreadors before sucking face.

>>96579232
>>96579305
Etherites, surprisingly, would be among the very few reasonable ones.
"What do you mean you're outsourcing creativity to the machine? It was meant to be the other way around! You assign menial tasks to the automata so you can focus on exploring new horizons!"

>>96578630
V20 was always trash. True chads only play original editions.

Thirty-one-and-a-half-days of pain is a price well worth paying for a starter mage with 59 levels of soak. :)

>>96579232
Lol, you sound like Brucato. Dis Trump cause more Banality and Winter too? As a reverse Obama?
Toreador disdain what doesn't fit their own definition of beauty, including other Toreadors of it happens.
Changelings hate schools too, half of them torture humans for their Glamour.
We all know Virtual Adepts are salivating at the thought of hooking more machines to humans. Their latest fad was Augmented Reality, literal machines on your head.
Garou ranges from guys that are angry at you for polluting the world to want to kill you for existing. It's their default emotion.
>>96579925
Selling your soul to become a meatshield and suffer near permenant pain is a bold move.

>>96580007
>going to bat for AIslop
GOOD MORNING SAAR DO NOT REDEEM

>>96579232
>You are the reason for the Endless Winter.
The vast majority of /wodg/ is pro-Technocracy, pro-Endless Winter, pro-Camarilla, pro-Weaver and generally in favour of the anthropocentric consolidation of the World of Darkness and the slow death of wonder, terror, magic and fantasy in favour of a comfortable status quo dominated by human mediocrity and tedium.

>>96580085
It's less being for those guys and more being against their opposition because they're sanctimonious hypocrites who only care because the boot's on their own neck rather than being the one with the boot (Traditions), batshit insane by any reasonable metric (Sabbat), retarded thugs looking for easy targets (Garou), or just aggressively in-your-face gay to the point you want them to die out (Changelings).

>>96580085
No, it's just a false dichotomy that sounds like it comes from a kids movie. This will date me as a millenial, but it reminds me of that Recess movie where the principal was trying to change the climate so there wouldn't be a summer break.

>>96580124
>complains about sanctimonious hypocrites
>sides with literally the Technocracy
Imagine magic being real and choosing to go into the 80 hour a week wagecage, getting quintuple vax boosted and getting a chip in your brain that tells your employer when you're are being unproductive which gets your pay deducted.

>>96580168
still better than being the illeterate manure covered serf of a hermetic lord
or at least it would be if the techies didn't have to constantly push the world toward a dystopian ''future''

Guys, what trait would you pick for your Build a Bear demonic form?

For me it would be plasmatic form so I can be a weird oily pseudo-Lasombra shadow creature.

>>96580195
A world run by the Traditions would have much higher variance in the quality of life, some mages would absolutely look after their human charges and offer them paradise, while some wouldn't give two hoots. The Technocracy wants the same unchanging comfortable monotony for everyone.

>>96580195
Stasis rolls over into Entropy, surrender to the Technocrats and Weaver and you're getting raped by robot cocks and extorted for the pleasure.Courtesy of the Computer, Autopolitans Nephandi and Pentex. The Hermetics are shit because they're the Technocracy with magic. Say that shit about Ecstatics, Etherites and Adepts. I don't give a god damn about schedules and being squeezed dry for my quintessence by the machine men. Blow it all up. Give time back to the people.

>>96580212
Depends on the tradition.
Etherite end game is absolutely the best possible ending for humanity and only savages like the Verbena and Dreamspeakers would disagree since they'd be stuck in their Umbral downie containment cage.

Hermetics meanwhile would 100% lord over the normie masses and treat them like shit due to their massive elitism.

>>96580228
Depends on the Hermetic, clans and tribes and traditions aren't monoliths.

TOTAL APPRENTICE DEATH

>>96580212
>A world run by the Traditions would have much higher variance in the quality of life, some mages would absolutely look after their human charges and offer them paradise, while some wouldn't give two hoots.
We do have an example of a world run by the Traditions.
It is a mostly medieval world with fantasy creatures. With small ass population.
>>96580203
Devil's Due had pretty good traits, I can't look up right now since those PDFs in my other storage.

>>96580307
>Be the House dedicated to overcoming challenges
>Fight ONE (1) war solo
>Ends in a stalemate
Pathetic.

>>96580325
But there's nothing here about humans being treated like shit or trodden underfoot or used as fodder. A human in this world who is able to thrive in spite of the fierce weather and magical monsters could lead a life full of wonder and drama, in comparison to the Technocratic Earth where that sort of wonder is so much rarer and where the Technocracy is trying to standardise life for everyone.
One option isn't necessarily better than the other, unless you value the propagation of humanity above everything else. The Traditions would create a world of romance and opportunity and struggle and strife, the Technocracy would create an unshakeable status quo with an acceptable standard of living for everyone.

>>96580341
They're like the spartans. Training for centuries, drinking their own kool aid about what hot shit they are and then jobbing hard when they have to actually do something.

>>96580353
I feel like..., you have the 1st Edition Technocracy in your mind when you write these (Even then, the Technocracy had their supporters against the Traditions, since 1st Edition had things like Verbena "We helped Garou's with Impergium".
Because since 2nd Edition forward, the Technocracy doesn't really do that. Oh sure, no doubt you have your emotionless cyborg Iteration X, all profit-seeking, human-exploiting Syndicate, mad scientist Progenitor etc but that's not the majority these days.
Just like how Verbena isn't complicit with Garou's genocide, Celestial Chorus isn't planning to burn down other Traditions if they win against the Technocracy, Sons of Ether only has minor...well only a decent chunk as Mad Scientists and while Order of Hermes sees Sorcerers as second class citizens and Sleepers as sheep, they usually don't rub it to their faces.

Fucking hell, someone else posted screenshots about that Syndicate blurb about how they are fighting NWO against the government control, information control and DRM while NWO is all about universal health care but the Syndicate wants private healthcare.
The Technocracy, just like Traditions, are different groups with different beliefs working together, in shades of grey. They just work better together than the Traditions and are actually successful. There is a reason why M20 basically had the Traditions out of options as the Technocracy left them behind.

>>96580341
they fought 3 wars, 4 if you count ars magica's post schism war civil war over house diedne stuff, and they ate shit in all of them because suprise the house that made the fact that it's members can't trust each other part of it's core identity can't get it's members to work well together

>>96580393
Each of the Technocratic conventions, except for maybe the Void Engineers, has an end goal with a particular status quo and perfect state of stagnation for humanity in mind. Even the Void Engineers could be argued to have this as their end goal, seeking to spread humanity across every last corner of the Tellurian and beyond, until everything is mapped out and there is no frontier left. They might have their disagreements and there are still individuals within the hierarchy, but the Conventions are far more collectivistic and monolithic and lock-step than the Traditions by their very nature.

>>96580085
Speak for yourself, I am pro wonder through and through. Every winter ends, faggot.

>>96580417
Only the Syndicate can be argued for Status Quo and that's because the Syndicate wants everyone to be content.

>>96580417
I hold the Void Engineers in particular contempt because they see Threat Null - embodiments of the Technocracy conventions taken to their logical conclusion - and rather than do any form of soul-searching they bury it like like the Syndicate buries the fact they let Pentex become a thing.

I think Technocracy is sympathetic for the same reason Heroes are in Beast, because it's clear that the writers have a weird narcissistic worldview, where the bad guys' main sin is that they just don't understand the self-insert main characters and oppress them by not letting them do whatever they want. At that point it doesn't matter what atrocities they attribute to them, because it's obvious that's not the main reason why they're supposed to be bad.

>>96580472
>Syndicate in practice: We have these cool new tricks to make big money unaccountable to the law. We can also print infinite profit for the wealthy and make the poor work harder while being oblivious as to the source of their suffering. Also we still fund Nephandi, but say it's begrudgingly, instead of soul-searching as to why revolving around money leads to Nephandic activity.

>>96580307
>At the Great Tribunal that sentenced House Tremere to death and expulsion from the Order in 1202, House Tytalus spoke in favor of their former brethren, and during the resulting Massassa War, House Tytalus made a pact with the dreadful Tzimisce of Transylvania, which brought the House into suspicion of dealing with the vampires.
lmao

>>96580506
When you isekai into WoD, go tell the Syndicate what's the deal with SPD aka Pentex.
At least you would get a great deal of money and perhaps a high position.

>>96578803
>I imagine the “alt-right” will be an issue in camarilla and sabat

Didn't they already go out of their way to denigrate anybody who isn't a hard left antifa type in V5's core book?

>>96578617
the lamia are right about lilith though

>>96580516
>house Tytalus spoke in favor of their former brethren
this is actually a weirdly consistent thing in wod i can name at least 3 cases when members of house tytalus expected members of house/clan tremere to go easy on them because they are "family" forgetting that tremere and tytalus tried to kill each other during the founding of the order and that the reason tremere made ceoris was because he was paranoid that his sworn brother would try again to kill him someday

>>96580534
>>96578803
There's the usual "YOU FASCIST SCUM AREN'T ALLOWED TO PLAY OUR GAME (even though you already have the book and thus can't actually be stopped)" foreword crap yeah, but technically we were already in the in-universe crap by W20 Book of the Wyrm.
https://whitewolf.fandom.com/wiki/RED_Network

>>96580551
I mean, yeah, it was always silly an unenforceable, but if they already wrote that into V5, I wouldn't consider doubling down on it much more of a change in V6 (or whatever they call it); unless they go out of their way to make GWONALD GWOMPF the main antagonist cross-splat, which would be unbearable. V5 by comparison was just them crying about rightists in sidebars.

>>96580550
even funnier since Tytaloi aren't nice to their own housemates. Why would the Tremere ever go easy on them lol?

If they ever make a sixth edition, I hope they brand it with roman numerals so we can have VVI

>>96580556
It doesn't deter everyone, sure, but it is enough to get most rightoids to go "ZOMG NEW EDITION WOKE". They spread it around in places like this and enough will refuse to pick up the game that they can never dominate the system's community. It's a numbers game and rightoids are so fucking easy to manipulate that a few a paragraphs are all that is needed to prevent your system from becoming "that game the nazis play" and alienating all the mentally well people that will actually buy the game instead of pirate. It is a no brainer, really.

>>96580578
I mean, V5 *is* "woke" but I'm in a rightoid group that plays Saturday evenings over VC. We also house rule out all the Rudi-esque shit as we find it because it really is irritating, especially if it takes focus.

I have this image in my mind of an Elon Musk-esque person dropping a few mil for the IP and turning it V5 into an "alt-right" game. Would be certainly amusing watching the tables turn overnight, but I'm also not that invested in it to drop those mils myself, even if I had that.

>>96580556
The biggest offense is the lack of finesse and respect for the setting. Obviously driven by their ideological tunnel vision.

You can EASILY say people like Ben Shapiro are Endron stooges (among other things), though not Nephandi themselves. You can say the same about Trump. You could even say it's just a sleeper government, or a sleeper controlled economy gone awry that's even perverting the will of the Syndicate who is only able to cope with the infinite debt and inflation. You can say that Israel is a blend of sleepers and a batshit sect of Choristers fighting other batshit Choristers. Also Nephandi, the Technocracy, and Sabbat all cashing in in some way. The Nephandi is definitely using the Israel-Palestine conflict to make people lose faith in humanity, while the Technocracy gets authority to smash RDs and put new technology into consensus through military-industrial complex testing on live targets. Virtual Adepts are definitely occupying every anti-establishment online space, they are both the furries and the chantards.

You can do a lot of things. Long gone are the days of oWoD where the Sabbat controls the CIA while being tard wrangled by the NWO.

>>96580563
I think the idea behind this is meant to be that in the eyes of a member of house tytalus other members of house tytalus are your peers and rivals while house tremere are (or at least used to be) the "little brother" house.
and members of house tytalus are also often taught (if you can call survivor bias teaching) to get outside help against their own mentor during their apprenticeship

so in the eyes of the tytaloi the tremere are lesser, family and outsider in other words the perfect flunkies... not that this ever works out that way but that's beside the point

>>96580597
All excellent points. I read on the rpg.net forums that they were holding off on M5 because the Technocracy being the main antagonist is "MAHA-coded"

what are some positive changes you'd hope to see in a hypothetical v6?
I'd love for them to fix the sabbat. no more shovelheads, blatantly disregarding the masquerade in public, and existing only to attack the camarilla. focus on them accepting the fact that they're vampires and clinging to the humanity they once had is foolish. make them monsters who have gained powers by doing things a camarilla vampire would never dream of doing. I could see them running modern day blood cults where they use humans as tools in their rituals. they wouldn't really care about the camarilla, but the camarilla would fear them and have a reason to go after them

>>96580592
And that is fine. Like I said. it isn't about individuals. Certainly not about you and your group. It is a numbers game and it works.

>>96580606
Yeah I will say the WoD/CofD "community" is particularly insufferable about this stuff politically. I'm in a different group that runs ACKS II on Fridays, also over VC, and it seems like the politics of that community is the direct inverse.

>>96580604
The Technocracy wanking is the faggiest thing ever. These people don't want to come to terms with the fact that the Technocracy likely blows up Palestinians to help bring technology into Consensus and to print money for their budget.

>>96580604
>white wolf is never beating the right wing allegations
lmao, talk about living in a bubble
even in the 90s WW was left leaning as fuck. What is this guy smoking?

>>96580616
>>96580615
To me the idea that we have to edit Ascension because it's absolutely imperative that the lore can't agree with the right on *ANYTHING* strikes me as a mistake. I guess that other guy who said it's about it being a numbers game might be right. Going out of their way to rewrite everything so as to never vindicate the American Right on any topic might be heavy-handed enough to turn me away from it.

>>96580605
I feel like you have a misunderstanding of Sabbat. They don't exist to oppose Camarilla, though they do think they are puppets of Antediluvians.
They are there because they are a sect of vampire who don't want to be pretend they are human, who don't want to be tools of the Antediluvians and want to fight against both of them.

From a combat perspective out of the three physical stats which is the second most important? I know Dex is the best stat in old world of darkness. It's still the best in Chronicles, it just takes more effort to get there. When it comes to strength and stamina though I can never tell if strength is better than soak. I feel like strength is better if you expect one vs one confrontations while stamina is better if expect to be ganged up on or if you have werewolf regeneration. Do you guys have any thoughts?

>>96580623
I cringe when people talk about how the Technocracy is good now and the Traditions are stupid and irrelevant. You can feel how it comes from the lore written to spite anti-science right wingers. Muh Donald Trump is a Nephandus, Robert F. Kennedy is an Etherite. Pure faggotry. These actual troons can't even comprehend that technology is wielded by anyone regarded of ideology, hence why the Technocracy backed the Nazis.

Ecstatics are my #1 because they represent my feeling that this bullshit Technocrat time we operate on is incompatible with us and time needs to be fundamentally reshaped so life happens more at our own paces. Fuck these goofy ass troons. They shrivel up and cower in the face of true sex-having mages.

>>96580605
but wouldn't you need to heavily white wash the camarilla for that? because the camarilla is totally fine with blood cults (they have both mithras who has mortal cultists and the tremere who run cults as recruitment grounds) and do not give a single fuck if you use humans as tools

the camarilla only cares about maintaining humanity (the path) because it's a tool that allows you to more easily hide among humans which is also the same reason why most giovanni are also on humanity despite having a necromancy path of enlightenment around

>>96580635
>You can feel how it comes from the lore written to spite anti-science right wingers.

Exactly. I'm not even going to pirate that, much less pay for it.

>>96580605
at this point i don't want a V6. just take the whole thing out behind a shed and do something else

>>96580635
Except it's always the pro-business right wingers who glorify working 18 hours a day, 7 days a week, I remember that was the main argument when the whole H1B debacle happened on Twitter, that Indians work more than lazy white boys. So in this case the Technocracy represents right wing types.

>>96580665
Well that's the thing, it's important that no element of the lore at all vindicates the Right. So opposing the medical establishment qualifies. The Bad Guys must strictly be right wing, in every respect, at all times.

>>96580665
You don't have to tell me. Technology can be wielded by any ideology. These moron lefties be out here having sleeper debates about sleeper topics like political ideologies instead of real ascension war shit. Like, "How do you feel about linear time?"

>In Atlanta, Sascha, being inspired by rumores about Thin-Blooded, unsuccessfully tried to bear a baby out of curiosity.
uhh....

>>96580623
In fairness, if the centers of right-wing influence in tabletop hadn't married themselves to piracy to the point of having a fucking permanent trove of pirated books from active editions and a permanent "help me pirate this book" thread, maybe we wouldn't be so fucking irrelevant that we could be outright ignored, but also shunned. This is a complete, "Oh, no. The consequences of my own actions" situation. Margins are tight enough in tabletop companies that ideologies could be ignored if there was money on the line, but we fucking neutered ourselves.

>>96580717
>rightoids who are hyper pro-capitalism and hate free lunches pirate everything
>lefties who hate capitalism consume everything regardless of quality and get excited for new products like good cattle
lol

>>96580740
I can't pirate a book on reddit retard. I can on tg. That's the message you are sending.

>>96580717
I have my doubts that the root cause, if there's only one, of this theater kid takeover of TTRPGs is from chud piracy. Much more than that, I think, is the psychology of authenticity. That is, this idea of a "canon" carrying weight for works of fiction in the first place. It leaves the door open for something similar to regulatory capture.

>>96580605
They should bring back NWoD instead. I think OWoD has reached a ceiling, where even with a corporate push of a bunch of video or board games, it's barely popular, while NWoD never had any kind of push like that, from any iteration of White Wolf, and yet it's still alive. I bet under the right management, it would have more potential.

>>96580798
Requiem had at least two boardgames as I recall.

>>96580760
NTA, but money talks and bullshit walks. If I am making a game with my livelihood on the line, and I have a choice to cater to the typical /tg/ crowd oo some woke zoomers, I am going with the zoomers. /tg/ can get a new release within 1-2 weeks after it drops for free and they will 100% do that and call me a faggot if I complain about it. Meanwhile, the tablet-brained zoomers don't even know what IRC is, let alone how to work a torrent.

>>96580887
I wonder if the chuds would pointedly take over if the RPG author made a forum (or something similar) that was pretty laissez faire (you could argue about politics and call people niggers) but you have to actually buy the $50 hardcopy.

>>96580895
I honestly don't think there are enough people actually want that to support an RPG in any meaningful way. I am getting into a niche of a niche situation at that point. First I am, as always, limited to people who actually want what I am selling and RPGs are a crowded market, but now I am further limiting myself to people who want what I am selling, but who are also alt-right with no hidden power levels. That wouldn't just turn off all the left and the center, it would also turn off like 80% of the right. Even most racists like to maintain an "I'm not racist" fig leaf. Moreover, they would just get pissed at me over some bullshit anyway and then I am out on my ass anyway.

>>96580895
I honestly don't think there are enough people who actually want that to support an RPG in any meaningful way. I am getting into a niche of a niche situation at that point. First I am, as always, limited to people who actually want what I am selling and RPGs are a crowded market, but now I am further limiting myself to people who want what I am selling, but who are also alt-right with no hidden power levels. That wouldn't just turn off all the left and the center, it would also turn off like 80% of the right. Even most racists like to maintain an "I'm not racist" fig leaf. Moreover, they would just get pissed at me over some bullshit anyway and then I am out on my ass.

>>96580937
>the chuds can't take over because they don't buy things
>if you gave them a motivation to buy the thing - access to the author -- then nobody else would buy it

So in the end the real issue is that these TTRPG authors are ideologically-motivated. Got it. I'm fine with that.

>>96580944
Don't go all /tg/ on me. I am saying they lost their what influence they had because they stopped buying anything. I am also saying they don't have the numbers to be the only group supporting a system, which they would be if they let it all hang out in a forum with the creator and the creator was just cool with it. These aren't mutually exclusive.

>>96580944
That is definitely true that they can't take over without buying things. But the forum idea doesn't work because chuds also don't have the numbers to support a system that has any kind of cultural cachet by themselves. Like if I put together a system by myself in my garage for beer money or supplement for my day job, sure I could float that on chud money alone, but if I want to grow, start adding on a couple of writers, a layout designer, and an editor + freelance artists? No chance.

Chuds aren't going to run away with the ballgame, but atm the lack of money coming in from them and the piracy advertising means they don't even have a spot to sit in the dugout.

>>96580717
let's not kid ourselves, this trend started long before 4chan even existed

>>96580990
You're incorrect. There are outfits that make a living off of TTRPGs that cater primarily to chuds, such as Autarch. So as a matter of fact you're incorrect on this.

Now, onto projections and speculation: I think that if the business model were updated so that one of the things people are buying is access to the author(s) and an ability to influence future editions/supplements, then chuds and chud-adjacents would buy in to that at much larger numbers than you're giving credit for. Chuds + chud-adjacents are consistently shown to be the silent majority across hobbies and this would be them buying more than just a book, but a voice and the ability to influence future "canon" outcomes. Chuds are also much more inclined to argue the point in the public square insofar as they're allowed to without losing their livelihoods/going to jail, whereas leftists require their patrons remain in lockstep with them on all their key points. The latter would leave and be replaced and then some.

>>96580393
>only 2e is the real Technocracy
okay fucker

>>96580665
>Except it's always the pro-business right wingers who glorify working 18 hours a day, 7 days a week,
And the left wing glorifies imported non-citizens doing that for slave wages instead.

>>96580660
same. It's abundantly clear any new edition would invariably piss off more people than it would please.

>>96580634
Combat, in the vast majority of scenarios, is determined by who ambushes who first. In that sense, Strength adding to initiative in nWoD/CofD means slightly more. In oWod without that, Stamina gives you more for your buck unless the other guy's grapple-happy.

>>96581008
>Chuds + chud-adjacents are consistently shown to be the silent majority across hobbies
No, I don't think that's true. I think the demographics that play games are more like Shane Gillis than Sam Hyde, where they like making offensive jokes, but true chuds still call them cucks for not being against race mixing or whatever.

>>96581053
No, we just acknowledge that that's the only way we can get the food prices we have, and the reality is that for migrant workers trying to make money to send home, it's good pay for them.

>>96578602 (OP)
>bait TQ
>politics arguments without any pretense of being based in setting
>AI title pic somehow the only one in a while to use the World of Darkness logo instead of being some stupid meme

Goddamn what an awful thread.

>>96581053
Also, we only have that problem with permanent illegal migration from the south because we made it too hard for migrant workers to come up, do the seasonal work, then go home. Excessive, unnecessary border control made illegal immigration worse, not better.

>>96581079
Welcome to Hell. Enjoy your stay.

>>96581042
Nta but if you think 1st Edition and 2nd Edition and further Technocracy, I have a bridge to sell to you.
Same for the Traditions.

>>96581042 #
Nta but if you think 1st Edition and 2nd Edition and further Technocracy are the same, I have a bridge to sell to you.
Same for the Traditions.

>>96581079
>talking about WoD in WoDG is bait

>>96581079
This feels like a thread made by Sleepers, for Sleepers

>>96581148
1st edition is the only true Technocracy. Every edition since then has tried to remove and reduce the edgy elements that made the Technocracy unambiguously evil, gradually ruining the entire idea. If The Man isn't actually evil and only does good things for the world, why fight him?

>>96580635
The Technocracy is just Great Crusade era Imperium, right down to having a cyborg faction that potentially worships an alien god.

>>96578803
>Anarchs will be out and out good guys
They always have been.

>>96580124
>aggressively in-your-face gay to the point you want them to die out
We're here. We're queer. Get used to it!

>>96580124
>Changelings
David Bowie isn't gay anon

>>96580748
>pirate a book on reddit
Skill issue. Lurk more.

can you imagine how popular VTM once was?

You had LARPs with multiple dozens of people. You got to fuck goth bitches so easily.

And white wolf washed it all down the drain to appeal to tumblr trannies

>>96581883
those goth bitches are the tumblrites, anon

>>96581883
This post reeks of being made by someone born past 2005

>>96581883
anon, that died out loooooong before tumblr was even a thing

>>96581883
election touristmaxxing

I was a huge fan of Werewolf the Apocalypse before they added woke shit like environmentalism and fighting the "system"

>>96581956
Kek

>>96581197
>1st edition is the only true Technocracy. Every edition since then has tried to remove and reduce the edgy elements that made the Technocracy unambiguously evil, gradually ruining the entire idea. If The Man isn't actually evil and only does good things for the world, why fight him?
I mean... the reason they reduced the edgy elements of 1st Edition Technocracy is because 1st Edition Technocracy had so much support and popularity.
Like it or not, even Brucato, feetfucker, magic believer, someone who think playing Nephandi might make you a bad guy, still outright said the Technocracy is as, if not more so, popular than the Traditions.

>>96581054
i don't care about pissing ppl off but WoD is so rotten at it's foundation that there is no salvaging it, especially after V5

*low quality tangentially wod related bait*

>>96581924
not true, I still remember some LARPs in the 2010s

>>96581197
>why fight him?
Because this is a white Wolf game.

>>96581963
>Technocracy is as, if not more so, popular than the Traditions.
It's weird how despite everything they wrote for them the Traditions still feel rather forgettable. Maybe it's just a me problem.

>>96581963
>I mean... the reason they reduced the edgy elements of 1st Edition Technocracy is because 1st Edition Technocracy had so much support and popularity.
And it was a mistake.

>>96582057
Yes, of course *random faction* would be behind*recent political event* what did you expect from White Wolf?

>Can a Nephandi ragebait a Virtual Adept into entering a Caul? I think they could.

Potentially but you can't be tricked into becoming a nephandi. You have to really want to do it. If you aren't committed you just die but your avatar is preserved. Nephandi use this to prevent any potential attempts to infiltrate their ranks

>>96580635
I'm basically a fascist and also an unironic technocracyfag. I crack the heads of ecstatic hippies and force them to grow up

The technocracy would if anything crack down on cranks like RFK for spreading stuff that goes against their paradigm and disrupting the consensus by getting people to listen to whatever their online friends say. It goes against their whole deal.

Of course they would do the same with like the CDC officials that didn't want to talk about how monkeypox was spreading through gay origies. The technocracy doesn't map neatly on to the American political spectrum, it's a centuries old conspiracy to control the nature of reality.

>>96581619
Bowie's sexuality could not be easily defined in limiting earthly terms.

>>96581883


>anon showing his age. Read: -18

Get out

Gonna fight an edgy demon worshiper tonight, wish me luck boys.

>>96582124
Sorry to hear you eagerly lined up for every COVID shot.

>>96582182
I'm a high IQ right winger that is too stupid to fall for anti-vaxxer woo

Reminder that Etherites running around with laser guns that deal agg Forces damage and shoot at a machine gun tier rate is perfectly coincidental as long the laser gun is at least 50 pounds weightwise.

>>96582146
Imagine being the Technocracy and getting owned by destroyed by sleepers and nephandi pawns in the sleeper governments and sleeper economies. And your only defenders are pro-military industrial complex redditors.

>>96582197
Just make sure you keep preaching the good word of how infinite debt and inflation at poor people expense is good so the Technocracy can get its black budget.

>>96582175
good luck

>>96582175
I wish you the best, infernals are tricky to fight.

>>96580212
>The Technocracy wants the same unchanging comfortable monotony for everyone.
And the "comfortable" part isn't even true anymore.

>>96582379
wydm just eat the bugs bro

>>96582175
local Salubri getting ready to raid a Baali nest

>>96582379
In almost every part of the world, humans haven't ever been as safe and healthy and long-lived as they are today. Comfortable is still pretty accurate, unless you currently live in Gaza, Central America or Sub-Saharan Africa.

>>96581197
That is because they painted themselves into a corner by making the Technocracy responsible for the modern world. The modern world is actually a lot better than the past, which means you have to conclude there is something to what the Technocracy is saying even if it is flawed

>>96582462
>In almost every part of the world, humans haven't ever been as safe and healthy and long-lived as they are today.

>>96582160
What about Prince^tm

Here's a theory. Are Aristotle de Laurent (Beckett's adoptive sire) and Simon de Laurent (Gabrielite who helped Golo lay the groundwork for the Sons of Ether) related? Think about it. Both are intellectuals with the same surname and both were born in 1100s France. They can't be the same person since one is a vampire and the other a mage which is mutually exclusive, but they could be brothers perhaps. What do you think?

>>96582572
Don't look up Victorian working conditions.

>>96580325
>even a scattering of dinosaurs
Based. I know next to nothing about Mage but now I'm a TraditionCHAD.

>>96582630
Damn are you telling me Technocratic working conditions were worse than Technocratic working conditions where you work harder, longer, and get fired if you take a bathroom break? (Soon to get fired when your brain chip detects unproductive brainwaves.)

>>96582599
Ain't that just swearing them to Saint Laurence?

>>96582682
Yes, which were worse than the working conditions that came before them, which were worse than the working conditions that came before them, which were worse than the working conditions that came before them. Improvement is an iterative process. This is the best we've ever had it.

>>96582692
Damn I love infinite debt and inflation, working harder and longer for less, suicidal unfulfillment and stress, and all goods becoming shittier, because rich pedophiles have infinite leverage over me. Hail science.

>>96582197
>he actually took it
lol, lmao even

>>96582462
>>96582692
Retarded nepobaby living-off daddy's money or wanna be tech mogul that think he's going to be the next Jeff Bezos, call it.

>>96582708
>>96582746
Man, you guys are such chads. I am sure you would be the ones to survive in a Tradition world. Rather than dying to dinosaurs, dragons, whims of a spirit, whims of a Mage and tolling in the fields to survive.

I am sure of it. Even without any free time to shitpost on 4chan.

Jesus Christ why does every discussion of Mage and its dumbass setting always devolve into the most unnuanced and moronic discussion about modernity conceivable?

>>96582572
>>96582708
I'm not sure what your point is, this all started with how Drumpf is anti-Technocracy or whatever, do you think he is against any of these?

>>96582462
We, as in 99% of the population, get less and less time away from work in order to survive. Unless many major technological developments will simply be out of reach for baically everyone.

>>96582792
Technocracy fans boil down the Traditions to a bunch of tyrannical wannabe wizard-kings who want to lord over a humanity that's perpetually stuck in the Dark Ages, where they will serve as prey for all sorts of magical monsters if dysentery doesn't get them first.
Traditions fans boil down the Technocracy to a bunch of dystopian assholes who want to turn humanity into a hive of robotic wage-slaves with uninteresting lives devoid of any original thought.

>>96582792
>Jesus Christ why does every discussion of Mage and its dumbass setting always devolve into the most unnuanced and moronic discussion about modernity conceivable?
Because at the end of the day that's what the conflic between the Traditions and Technocrats is about and every other conflict and plot point is complete dogshit or belongs to other splats.

>>96582835
Are they wrong tho?

>>96582847
Yes, in both cases. There's more nuance to both factions than that.

>>96582766
I would survive in an Ecstatic-Etherite-Virtual Adept world correct. I don't want to work 100 hours a week because the Technocracy invented a way for sleepers to sleep less and work more while also getting ads beamed into their brains.

>>96582766
Shut the fuck up, you fucking retard. We're in the middle of an economic recession. Go and get fucked by the rich uncle that hands you money in exchange for your anus.

>>96582815
Oh no, you have to work to survive, just like everyone else throughout the history of humanity, except you have to do it in an age where you're safer from disease and crime than ever before and you have all of the knowledge of the world at your fingertips and you get to enjoy luxuries that would have been reserved for royalty two hundred years ago.
But because you have to work in order to enjoy all of this propserity, that means we're literally in a dystopia. Woe is us.

>>96582867
Quit doing tricks on rich pedophiles' dicks.
>The Technocratic model exploited you in the past so you need to have more plastic in your food and sleep 1 hour so you can live in a pod and afford subscriptions to AI generated Marvel movies that you have all of 5 minutes to watch on break inbetween wagecucking.

Check out this latest Technocrat innovation for society. Data centers that dry up the rivers and double the price of energy. You're not allowed to complain because the Technocracy used to force children to work in coal mines for pennies. Hail science that wagecucks work harder and longer for less and will also have to ration water and eventually be paying multitudes more for energy. Because the Technocracy thinks it's really important for LLMs be generating hundreds of prompts to correct hallucinations while writing "hello world". Don't worry, you can just sleep less so you can work more.

>>96582877
>>96582915
>We live in a hellish dystopia because I have to work at a comfortable job with heaps of laws protecting me from unfair exploitation, most of which didn't exist a mere century ago, for the privilege of being able to generate works of art composited using the sum total of all human creativity in a matter of seconds with the press of a button.
Woe is you.

>>96582915
ok but what about netflix and smartphones? you don't need rivers but you like !phones don't you?

>>96582941
>Evil exploitation is OK because it's different from another era's hellish exploitation
That boot leather tasty?

The Virtual Adepts were right. This whole system needs to be reformatted.

>>96582976
>Society has gone to hell because I work less than a person of my standing would during any other point in history, for far more luxuries and a far more enjoyable existence than a person of many would have gotten at any other point in history.
I wonder what your ancestors would think of you, knowing that countless generations suffered so that you could whine about how hard you have it in the most prosperous era humanity has ever known and might ever know.

>>96583033
Go fuck yourself already. You're justifying Bezos having a third megayacht built on the backs of workers not being given enough time to go to a bathroom to pee.

>>96583047
You're allowed to complain about that, just try not to pretend that the world is getting considerably worse than it was before. Whatever your complaints are about 2025, they must always come with the caveat that the wretched modernity that you despise is more pleasant than anything that came before it. Workers not getting the time for piss breaks sucks, but it's not a sign of dystopia. If it was, then all of human history has been dystopian because workers have had worse shit than that to worry about at every prior point in human history.

>>96583078
NTA but I don't think medieval peasants having to wear diapers because the local lord didn't let them take a pee break.

>>96583105
Are you asserting that you'd rather be a medieval peasant than an Amazon warehouse worker in 2025?

>>96583078
This. Most people don’t realize how bad the world was before the Industrial Revolution. We were stuck in the Malthusian trap so the average person was always close to starvation, half of all children just straight up died, women died in childbirth constantly, medicine didn’t exist…you could go on like this. People are imagining something like The Shire from Lord of the Rings, but the Shire isn’t real

>>96583033
My ancestor was part of a union that literally murdered multiple people for higher wages than what wagecucks make now.

>>96583122
Sorry to hear that they'd be so ashamed of you, I guess?

the Technocratic totalitarianism makes more sense when you remember they don't see using the mind sphere on others and themselves for brainwashing as a bad thing. in a technocrats PoV if you are depressed from being a wageslave than that is a literal skill issue that could've been averted if you just learned psychological techniques and started using them on yourself

>>96582792
I think one very salty Trad player got baited by a Crat player.
That or someone is about to declare their alliance to the communist party.
Either way, it is honestly hilarious to watch.

Hmm, here is an interesting idea. Last digit of my past will determine what I talk about.
1-VTM
2-WTA
3-MTA
4-CTD
5-HTR
6-DTF
7-MTR
8-WTO
9-Orpheus
0-I shitpost

>>96583147
Ecstatics got so into using mind magic on others because they were mad that their founder projected a vision of himself into the future to tell them to sit the fuck down

>>96583132
So people should start murdering Technocrats to push back against their exploitation?

>>96583114
>We were stuck in the Malthusian trap so the average person was always close to starvation, half of all children just straight up died, women died in childbirth constantly, medicine didn’t exist
Damn, dude, read a history book sometime. The average person was not at risk of starvation unless you're talking actual apocalyptic level famines, which were very, very rare such as to be notable history events. The majority of children survived (that's how the population increased you stupid fuck), women were at very low risk of dying by childbirth, medicine did exist as far back as ancient Persia and Egypt and some ancient medicines are still recommended as treatments. Every time some uneducated hick starts spewing trash about how horrible life used to be I just wonder what they even teach in school these days. If life was half as bad as you describe, humanity would never have survived, let alone thrived enough to build modern civilization. The industrial revolution was the result of medieval Europe developing superior agricultural practices and technology that resulted in massive harvest yields relative to the acreage of farm plots, as well as refining the techniques for steel production and generally overall being a pretty comfortable place to live as long as it wasn't being actively invaded. The Renaissance could never have happened in the kind of miserable, squalor-suffering world you describe.

>>96583168
No, that'd make them mentally ill, because the Technocracy isn't real. Seek help if you think it is.

>>96583179
You already forgot what thread you're in, you actual retard. No wonder you're a rich pedo simp.

>>96583184
You were talking about your ancestors, you don't exist in the World of Darkness. I suggest you seek psychiatry help if you think you do.

>>96583155
HTR eh, well two things.
First, I always find it hilarous that Hunter name for certain powers shows how Vampires like to obscure what they are actually doing.
Vampire calls it Dominate, Hunter calls it Mind Rape. It even rhymes!

Second, it is ironic that some Extremist Hunters become Extremist because of their corruption. Hunters as a splat is basically built upon their incorruptible nature. The fact that some Hunters are willing give up on it for power, is one of the bitter ironies of Corrupted Extremists.

>>96583178
You literally have no idea what you are talking about. Basically everything you just said is objectively wrong. There is a reason people were shorter in the past, they were malnourished pygmies.

This whole mental breakdown is completely alien from the actual Mage worldview anyway, the Traditions are not concerned with how masses live, in the first edition the main thing they were crying about is how technology took power away from the mystics and religious mages, and gave it to the masses, leading to the "lowest common denominator" ruling. The only socialists in the setting were the Cratmasons, who created the Order of Reason, they're the only one who ever cared about how the masses live.

>>96583238
Some of them are but most are not. The Order of Hermes waging magic war all the time and trying to control sleepers is canonically what allowed the Order of Reason to rise. By the time the Hermetics realized they were going to get their shit kicked in it was too late to stop it.

>>96583238
You know the funniest thing is? 1st Edition Verbena summarized it pretty well.
>The Technocracy may be our most dangerous enemies. They are mages, but work toward a totally different reality than we desire. They want complete order and control of everything. Naturally, we want to impose our own version of reality instead. It's a hate based on radically different ideas vying to create the ultimate reality in the same space.
This is it. Nothing more, nothing less.

>>96583227
>You literally have no idea what you are talking about. Basically everything you just said is objectively wrong.
How? Seriously. I even backed up my points with historical facts. Or are you too retarded and arrogant to accept life wasn't literal hell for the sum of human history until the 21st century? In fact, there's entire history classes about the Industrial Revolution and how it worsened living conditions for the average individual.
>There is a reason people were shorter in the past, they were malnourished pygmies.
You have no idea what malnourishment is nor what averages are. A difference of one or two inches in the average population height is not a strong indicator of systemic malnourishment. The height of homo sapiens sapiens as a species has been evolving to be higher and higher for the last two thousand years at least, regardless of nutritional factors (height has been increasing across the board regardless of famines throughout history). If you want to know what malnourishment looks like, look at pictures of starving kids in Africa. You don't just lose a couple of inches if you're malnourished, you never have puberty at all. You stay a bloated skeleton manchild forever.

>>96583033
>I work less than a person of my standing would during any other point in history
Actually kill yourself. Nobody's falling for that lie anymore. It's been common knowledge for years that medieval peasants worked a hell of a lot less than 21st century wagecucks.

>>96583114
Redditor. You need to kill yourself as well.

>>96583267
You didn’t back up your points with anything you made assertions which are contradicted by all empirical data. If you want to read a good book and see some real data check out Slouching Toward Utopia, A Farewell to Alms, and some of the studies on physical health of medieval/ancient humans. There’s no way even begging addressing so many incorrect factual claims on 4chan

>>96582792
Because it's the only main splat debate that's somewhat balanced.
>VTM: Camarilla are shit but Sabbat are retarded
>WTA: Garou are retarded but the Wyrm will destroy the world
>CTD: Do you want to have imagination or do you want to be a boring fucker lol?
>HTR: You might be supported by shady people but you're literally fighting monsters of the night that threaten humanity
For Mage there's at least a handful of decent points for either side, which creates more discussion and support the idea of the in setting Ascension wars.

Fuck dude. tg is a fucking wasteland. This thread is worse than a reddit comment chain.

>>96583288
This. Mage is fundamentally about clashing worldviews. In a game like Werewolf you’re essentially fighting the god of entropy and defilement. Mage has nephandi and no one ever tries to argue they are right because they’re meant to be just as cartoonishly bad as the wyrm

>>96583297
This IS a reddit comment chain. Who else but a fucking redditor would say shit like this?
>>96583114

>>96583297
Take some popcorn and just watch the thread, it is honestly better than TV.

>people actually discussing ideas from the game

Why is that bad idgi

>>96583277
>You didn’t back up your points with anything
Other than actual historical facts, such as the massive improvements of agriculture and steelworking in the middle ages resulting in huge yield improvements? Or that the vast majority of children survived (no fucking shit, sherlock?) Or that it was rare for women to die in childbirth (less than 10% of female deaths historically btw?) Still waiting on you to disprove actual facts.
>you made assertions which are contradicted by all empirical data.
What empirical data? The ones you made up in your head?
>If you want to read a good book and see some real data check out Slouching Toward Utopia, A Farewell to Alms, and some of the studies on physical health of medieval/ancient humans. There’s no way even begging addressing so many incorrect factual claims on 4chan
You can't begin addressing my claims because you literally don't know history. You even made the glaring mistake of claiming the Industrial Revolution improved human life for the average person, which is just so blindly ignorant of facts it boggles the mind. People went from valuable skilled laborers to literal disposable cogs in a machine overnight. Housewives who used to be able to finance their entire household via skilled seamstressing lost their jobs and had to work in factories doing back-breaking labor rather than supporting their families from home. If those books you're talking about actually try to argue otherwise, you should stop reading garbage and go take real classes at a university.

>>96583355
>Other than actual historical facts, such as the massive improvements
Meanwhile back in reality:

>>96583397
>post Industrial Revolution photo
Done.

>>96583238
>socialist
That never was the sort of leftist White Wolf were. They've always been the hardest of hardcore individualist liberals, muh personal freedoms before anything else. They always sneered and gagged at the concepts of worker solidarity, nationalised industry and equitable distribution of wealth. They loved the idea of being able to say what they wanted, fuck what they wanted, worship what they wanted and generally do whatever they wanted, but they wanted nothing to do with any collectivist bugman bullshit.

>>96583355
Both of the books I recommended were written by academics. One was written by the chief economic advisor to Bill Clinton. The only way I care to address disagreements about matters of fact is to point to real evidence

>>96583307
I ain't no true scotsmanning this. It's too pervasive across the board. Nah. This has been eye-opening. I'm fucking out.

>>96583417
Yeah, and that's exactly what leads to Amazon, and rich pedophiles ruling everything.

is this the wod general

>>96583403
>IT WAS NOT A REAL INDUSTRIAL REVOLUTION ;-; BUAA BUAAA BUAA

>>96583397
Are you saying there were no massive improvements in agriculture in the Middle Ages?

>>96583438
What does that have to do with White Wolf and the World of Darkness?

>>96583458
Yeah, but I suggest waiting for the new thread. There is a retard war between...an anon who got diddled by a rich pedo and an anon who keeps baiting him.

>>96583477
At this point I don't know which poster is which, but my main point is basically that I agree with >>96583417, White Wolf didn't write the game about worker conditions, so the guy going on about Amazon working hours is misguided, that's not why the Technocracy is supposed to be bad, and the Traditions don't fight for worker rights.
As for the other conversation in the thread about the Industrial Revolution, the first edition says "technomancers" started gaining power with the printing press, which is still medieval. Which also makes White Wolf more reactionary than most right wingers nowadays, who think the Enlightenment was the problem.

I think the tzimisce are neat

>>96583589
I think the Tzimisce are meat.

>>96583551
>Which also makes White Wolf more reactionary than most right wingers nowadays
WtA PC's faction is a deeply spiritual, hierarchical, monarchist warrior society with nigh-obligatory motherhood for women joinable only by birth.

>>96583397
...you mean the reality of how children were forced to labor in coal mines and factories to support the constant hunger of factories during the Industrial Revolution? Did you really think you were making a good point here?
>>96583419
>Both of the books I recommended were written by academics.
Academics with agendas rather than accuracy, it seems.
>One was written by the chief economic advisor to Bill Clinton.
That explains so fucking much, holy shit.
>The only way I care to address disagreements about matters of fact is to point to real evidence
You mean literally everything I mentioned in my post? Historical facts? You haven't even brought up a single point of evidence, and no, naming books is not evidence.

>>96583551
White Wolf has always been capable of poking a little fun at themselves, I doubt that any of them truly believe that the printing press was where it all went wrong. However, there's a nugget of honesty in what they write, as they do likely feel that the increased interconnectivity of society and the advent of technologies that tie us all tighter together have had a detrimental effect on humanity and the world itself, that life would be more magical and romantic if only society never advanced beyond the medieval period. Better to live as a noble savage leading a free life in a strange and wild world than live as a comfortable drone whose reality is curated by computer screens, White Wolf says.

malk who goes insane near radio devices and starts hearing shit from beyond the fabric of reality but is otherwise a completely normal dude

>>96583647
careful that sounds a lot like the prelude of a vampire about to become a weaver drone

>>96583647
John Disco Elysium?

>>96583771
could be weaver, could be anyone plot relevant
>>96583785
John The Secret World, if anyone

>>96583647
>radio devices
Like everything everything on wifi and bluetooth, or just am/fm receivers with tuning knobs for skipping through channels and forming words like a Ghost Hunter?

>>96583997
i was thinking anything electric or electronic, with small things like phones/clocks/tvs just a faint, annoying buzzing that can be ignorable, larger stuff like cars are audible whispers and large things like radio towers being absolutely overwhelming. obv the more a device is radio-like, the stronger the signal. maybe even scales with hunger
though including all electronics might be a bit too much of a handicap

the irony in his story is he used to have a electronics repair shop and used to be really into conspiracy theories/numbers stations stuff and would record reels and reels of undecipherable crap back in the cold war, but now he can't even be around these devices without someone talking to him inside his head