Thread 96697830

This is going to be a stupid question, but...Are PCs supposed to be inherently good? I mean in the terms of, is the assumption that we're all heroes - versus mercenaries - actually true?

No, of course not. Evil campaigns are a thing and many settings assume the players may be amoral and ruthless (Wilderlands of High Fantasy is probably the best example).

>>96697830 (OP)
It's generally assumed to be the default unless otherwise discussed or it's an established group with that vibe. Sure, some parties will make the amoral mercenary or whatever, but most players will make good/heroic characters most of the time.

>>96697830 (OP)
name a evil campaign or a system that specifically encourages or benefits evil that isn't black crusade or world of darkness.

>>96697955

Dark Heresy and Deathwatch.

>>96697955
Cyberpunk 2020.

>>96697955
Book of Vile Datkness?

Scarred Lands makes it very easy to have an evil party, too.

>>96697830 (OP)
Have you ever played traditional games?

>>96697830 (OP)
Depends on the game. Games like Shadowrun, Cyberpunk and Blades in the Dark presume you’re playing criminals of some kind, though the option to play vigilantes or terrorists is always inherently available. And there are games where the point is that doing what is necessary for survival is not the same as what’s nice or sometimes even “good”, such as Delta Green or Dark Heresy. Really, most games start with the assumption you’re playing people whose morals mimic your own just for the sake of convenience, but there is nothing to outright enforce that presumption. So you can be as goody two shoes or as vile as you want, just as long as your game group is cool with it.

>>96697830 (OP)
No. PCs are crazy people that decided grave-robbing the undead was a better long-term prospect than staying on the farm. Killing the ancient lich is incidental to stealing his money.

>>96697830 (OP)
Depends on the genre, you muppet.

For DND, yes.

>>96697830 (OP)
Depends on the game but generally no, and not even historically. Hero is an ancient greek narrative role that basically just means protagonist. The father-murdering mother-fucking edipus and wife-clubbing cousin-buggering herakles are both "heroes". Neither lived or acted how the greeks believed a person should live and act (at least in "modern" society, hence the concept of a heroic age).

But yeah even in basic ass D&D you have nine allignments to pick from, good is hardly assumed.

>>96697955
Dark heresy
Pretty much all dungeon crawlers
Fatal

>>96697830 (OP)
If you know the question is stupid why bother to ask it?
>the assumption that we're all heroes
Where did you get this assumption from?

>>96697955
Exalted (just play all abyssals/infernals)
Any cyberpunk system worth its salt is about amoral and self-serving PCs
Ventangle
Sword World has a whole splat about playing a monster/villain race party
Embryo Machine is about feudal mech mercenaries that are exactly as moral as you decide to be
Any Star Wars TRPG

>>96697830 (OP)
Depends on your group more than your system. The type of table that wouldn't have played D&D before it blew up in popularity is generally assuming that you're all playing good guys and will probably be upset if you play an evil character that isn't just lol so randumb. Always discuss it with your fellow players and GM first, which is what you should bring doing before the start of a campaign anyway.

>>96697971
He said evil

>>96697830 (OP)
>Are PCs supposed to be inherently good? I mean, in terms of, is the assumption that we're all heroes - versus mercenaries - actually true?
Oh, no, the REAL question if bad PCs are ready for the consequences of their actions, even due to a regular failed die roll. Since you can easily play Blades in the Dark or something like that, but the moment our little villains face the hierarchy of the underworld, police in all its corrupt glory, or push back from its victims, they are crushed. That is because they don't really want to be criminals, bad guys, beasts of no nation. They dream about being school bullies, punching younger kids for money, or being clients of Epstein's island. They want to be bad, but they also want to have total impunity, a carte blanche for doing imaginary shit. They want a therapy session with a sweet release from the burden of conscience of their normalfag lives. Not actual role-playing as Scarface, or Anton Chigurh, or Hans Landa, or something like that.

>>96697830 (OP)
>waah you have to care about a sea of browns and endlessly send us money

>>96697830 (OP)
Players are protagonists. They make the action "go." That's it.

>>96697955
Children of the Horned Rat.
Paranoia.

>>96697830 (OP)
>op image
You can't, now buzz off.

>>96697830 (OP)
No.
Especially in a Warhammer setting. Everyone is a rat bastard (fantasy) or just outright evil (40k) in varying intensity.

The number of times I've played a legit good character? Maybe 3. I don't do that anymore because you can't justify staying with your teammates at certain points. Hell, the last time I played a straight up good character I had to murder a PC.

>>96697955
Necessary Evil.
It's a Savage Worlds setting. Been a while since I mucked about with it, but you are playing as super villains. Invading alien forces blew the super heroes to shit that all joined together to fight them. So you guys are the only thing that can help fight off the invaders. Needs to be a world left to rule over it after all.

>>96698816
ive played multiple evil characters and never murdered any fellow PCs. The trick is to treat them like posessions.
>What's that wand of healing? You'll stop working if i dont save the orphans? You charge a steep price, but..."

>>96697830 (OP)
Not inherently but it’s likely the case in any given group that you are expected to play a heroic character. So talk to your fucking GM, if you have one.

>>96697830 (OP)
>Are PCs supposed to be inherently good?
That depends on the game.

>>96697955
> All systems the other replies to your post mentioned.
> Every system by Evil Hat. Every. Single. One.
> The "Börgs"; Mörk Börg, Cy Börg, etc.

>>96698765
Yep this is it exactly. I ran Feng Shui and Outgunned games where PCs are action heroes, no matter how many people they mowed down they were still the heroes, just like the action movies these systems simulate. You can mow down a army of mooks as long as they work for the bad guy and are in your way, you are still the hero. Even if you run slightly darker campaigns like a mobster epic like The Godfather or Goodfellas the players even if they are doing bad things and taking out people, pulling heists are still the protagonist.
>>96697830 (OP)
Players can have whatever morality necessary for the story, they can be mercenaries for pay, adventurers who keep the treasure for slaying the dragon, thrilseekers getting away from a boring life selling their skills as long as it's exciting. they don't have to be moral or good.

It's always very funny when OP tries making a ragebait troll thread but happens to ask a question just barely interesting enough that people ignore the bait.
>>96698834
That sounds pretty fun and I like SW. Thanks anon, I gotta check that out.

D&D PCs are nearly always evil people that expect to be treated like heroes

>>96697830 (OP)
No, but you have to remember that a villainous campaign is a very different thing, if you get fame as "the group of murderous assholes" people will react in turn, with fear, with violence, by hiring other people to stop you, etc.
Many, many people wont want to hire or give jobs to the guys with the knowledge they may betray them, extort them for more money, just bail on the job for a better offer, you get it.

>>96697830 (OP)
>versus
This is where you're fucking up.
The assumption is they're protagonists. Entertainment, media, mythology, history, etc. all tend to favour the protagonist except in very niche sections. If it doesn't have an explicit protagonists its very likely the user will fill in one, usually whoever is closest to their personal identity.
Its almost always assumed the player characters are the protagonists.
Your OP image is fucking retarded.

>>96698196
That's for oficial published products, as in modules, the system itself doesn't actually stop you from running an evil campaign.

>>96697830 (OP)
Depends on the game, retard.

>>96698196
>>96699162
Those standards don't even stop you from publishing an evil campaign. They just don't want their trademark associated with edgy trash. Which is fair enough.

>>96698857
Man, I get that. Much easier to play an evil character or just a kinda good character.

The time I had to kill a PC? I was playing a paladin. Good guy but very much of the "evil must be purged" variety. The other player was already doing tons of stupid shit like robbing the elderly, using magic to mind rape people to get what he wanted, and other heinous shit. I told him OOC, the only reason you aren't getting a paladin up your ass is because my character isn't anywhere near yours when you do that stuff. If you commit overt, plainly evil acts when he is there, I kind of HAVE to try my level best to kill you. It was just a heads up. Hide your actions from the paladin and we are good.
He kept doing outright evil shit, including literally sacrificing a child to a demon for power. That was the tipping point. We were on a quest to save the kid. We got to ritual site and my character was putting down spawning enemies while his character and the ranger went to save the kid. The ranger killed the wizard, the other guy slit the kids throat and loudly demanded the demon that was being summoned show up and grant him "Unimangiable power". Right in front of us. No hiding it. No stepping around. No justification.

The absolute moron then proceeded to use his turn to lock down the ranger with a hold person spell forgetting my paladin had Haste in effect. He didn't get another chance.
The player, in all fairness, was fine with what happened and just rolled up a new character that wasn't "obsessed with power, no matter the cost".

>>96697955
dnd
just go kill shit in the dungeon, go home and wench

>>96697830 (OP)
Generally speaking, yes; it is assumed the PCs are heroes as they are the protagonists. And while protagonist =/= hero, the two are often associated.

Personally, I like it when the party are heroes. I like playing a big dumb hero who fights for justice and what's right and does good for goodness' sake. I've tried playing the chaotic evil edgelord character and it was utterly miserable. I had no fun with such a character.

As a GM, I like the player characters being heroes because it's easier for me to give them stuff to do, it lets me open more doors up to them within the game world (because most people would reject a group of lawless vagabonds doing evil, and even hunt them down), and ultimately it's just easier to run games where the player characters are heroes because evil winning is exceptionally rare.

>>96698676
Red states are the biggest piglets for federal handouts. Most are net negative.

>>96704357
and those states are full of brown people. what’s your point?

>>96697830 (OP)
Well? Why should I care about other people? The favor certainly isn't going to be returned. What's my incentive to allow my kindness to be taken advantage of?

>>96698408
Yes, those are games where you play as Imperials. Orks are the only faction of the 41st millennium that isn't evil.

>>96697830 (OP)
No, only WOKE fuck tourists think you have to do that shit. They're just fellow people in the world. They can be as good and as bad as they want to be. However, know you have to deal with the effects in game and socially if it breaks the game. (The classic people always backstabbing and killing people will make it harder to do things as well as if they attack their players and stuff cause "that's what their player will do" and all.

>>96711492
As an individual? There are incentives in that kindness can be exploited but can also be repaid I guess.
On a population level, that sort of attitude when widespread logically leads to pure chaos dog eat dog "anarchy".

Yeah, that's why we invented police, dumbass.
You can trust strangers if you want. I'll continue not getting raped and murdered.

>>96697830 (OP)
That really depends on the game. PbtA slots you into particular roles harder than, say, a DnD-like. The latter usually assumes you are not so much heroic as socially functional--someone who is not a backstabbing moron incapable of working with others. Then there are games which pretty much encourage you to be the bad guy, like VtM.

I like my heroes Neutral

>>96711523
Big Blue Cities in Red States are dens of degeneracy and crime, we know. I live near one.

>>96711492
Genuinely no reason. Everyone is your enemy. Even your loved ones want to exploit you.

>>96697830 (OP)
Roleplaying is often a way for people to show their true selves.
A good DM should allow PCs to do what they want within reasonable expectations of the setting.
However, this should always have conquences. If PCs want to be murderhobos and villains, so be it. But then they should have to deal with actual heroes or anti-heroes trying to kill them in revenge.

A good example of this is what happens in the Westworld tv series with the character in pic related.

>>96698898
The borkbork games actually have a clause in them that if their games are NOT for playing mean ol chuddies who do racisms or rapisms

>>96721683
It's pointing out how every time some statistic fag lists the negative aspects of the southeast region of the USA to try and paint it like it all that negativity stems from rednecks and Bible freaks, it always, ALWAYS ignores that same region houses 90% of the black population of the USA.

>>96721732
Or you could challenge your murderhobo PCs with missions and enemies instead of kneecapping them for being murderhobos. Clearly that's what your players want why not let them. Set up obstacles and difficult opponents that PCs can still take on. If you're playing a criminal in a mobster setting there are still cops, bosses and other gangs in the way of getting to the top and getting power or taking over another gang's territory.
>>96721955
But you don't have to what are they going to do send the tabletop police if you do? They're going to monitor everyone running a campaign, put a CCTV camera at everyone's game table?

>>96697830 (OP)
I buy into the perspective that all PCs are to be >Heroic< instead. To do otherwise really can drag/take hostage the game for others.

The vast majority of people probably just want to play goody two shoes anyway without being forced to. Same as how most people usually just play a human or elf.

>>96722340
By George, can't a man hate both?!

Fuck the south.

>>96725112
kek, I mean, not wrong

>>96699181
lolbert corpo bootlicker
you will never be rich

I sometimes kill people when its funny to do so in games but during important moral choices i almost always go for the good to neutral ones. Ig its just a matter of the DM keeping me immersed because when i start feeling like i'm JUST playing a game i start thinking it'd be really funny for someone's head to explode right after he saved me from a peril.

>>96697955
Delta Green.
Sometimes you gotta gun down that child witness because she saw one of your fellow Agents get eaten by a sapient mind virus.

>>96697955
Shadowrun
Conspiracy X
Adventurer Conqueror King System

>>96697830 (OP)
>Are PCs supposed to be inherently good?
No. PC's can be neutral, evil, good, anything really.

>Should your PC's that are mechanically, or stated to be good, act and behave good?
YES

>Are games where all the PC's are some form of good person typically the easiest and most coherent to run/play in?
YES.

>Should a PC cop the consequences for their actions (which will almost always be more severe when acting in an evil manner to others more regularly)?
YES.

>If a player says a PC is good, but the PC acts evil, should you reassign the PC's moral compass / alignment to evil?
YES.

Evil campaigns can work, but you gotta make sure everyone's on the same page. Session 0's are important, people!
Speaking of which, I GMed a cyberpunk game where the Players were crooks working for a shadowy kingpin. They robbed people, murdered bystanders and were menaces to society. One of my Players, who was stoked about playing an evil PC, became horrified at the monster he made, especially when he had his PC kill a friend of his for some drug money. This betrayal convinced my Player that he wanted redemption, and he did so by sacrificing his PC to save another PC.

>>96697830 (OP)
>Are PCs supposed to be inherently good?

"Supposed to" no, but in 99% of cases they will be anyway.
PCs can have any personalities and values their players want them to have. However, you will find that most players will default to "good" regardless. This is because most people are not sociopaths, and will feel genuinely bad about doing evil acts even within their own imaginations.

>>96697844
>Evil campaigns are a thing
In my experience every "evil" campaign is actually a good campaign but the players wear spikes on their armor.

>>96697830 (OP)
hate to respond to an obvious "erm...guys?" nogames post but it really depends on when you started playing. Older games skewed more toward "in it for the treasure" but now players have to see themselves as not only protagonists but moral arbiters.

>>96698196
This is recent and is to keep them from being associated with shit (not even a pejorative) like the LotFM willy wonka module.

>>96697830 (OP)

I don’t know how to tell you social justice isn’t inherently good and is built on an idea the West typically views as evil - collective guilt.

Caring about people also usually comes with do somethings about crime and not taking from the people playing by the rules and producing resources.

>>96698165
Based.

>>96699181
Evil but not edgy? How?

>>96697830 (OP)
If we take D&D Basic as modeling what is 'supposed,' to be, and we look to its influences, than no. Conan, for example, was a thief, a bandit, and a murderous pirate most of his life. He was a taker and a killer and he enjoyed it. He had a drive to good, though, and would sacrifice immediate personal gain to show mercy to the helpless or render aid to the needful. At least if the needful was a hot chick with thick thighs and big tits.

>>96697830 (OP)
I can't believe a bait thread got this far.....wait....
....yes, I can.
.......well.

Modern Social Activism as the spear for Corporate Oligarchy
is the absolute worst thing to ever happen to modern gaming.
full stop.

>to reply to OP pic related
>"man, people like you are the reason I no longer care"

>>96711523

Where do black people live? Oh it’s all one map.

>>96697830 (OP)
It depends if you assume people generally want to be good or not. Although that assumption likely reflects more on the person making it than people generally

>>96732302
I like playing characters that try to be good, but fall short.

It's more interesting that way.

Aligment systems are gay, so I play Runequest, where everybody has overly complex matrices of loyalties and cult affiliations instead.

Is it messier?
Yes.
Is it truer to life?
Also yes.

>>96732224
Social Justice, the western neo-religion: all of the guilt but without salvation

>>96732292
>reddit space
Get the fuck out, you nigger tourist

>>96697830 (OP)
Does the dog identify as people or something?

>>96698384
>Exalted (just play all abyssals/infernals)
Depends on the edition.

>>96697830 (OP)
What is "good"? In a cyberpunk setting, is good fighting against the multinational corporations or is it fighting for the government against rogue elements that want to destroy the current order?

>>96732265
but Conan was also a great king of Aquilonia, who ruled fairly, reigned in corruption and raised the standard of living

>>96732855
It’s college spacing nufag. Everything in college is double spaced.

>>96697830 (OP)
Ok.

>>96732966
Honestly even Solars can be pretty evil, what with being bronze age morality conquerer kings and all, and Lunars have a major NPC that literally eats babies as a hobby. Not to mention Siddies are celestial glowies and glowies are ALWAYS evil. There's plenty of ways to be a bad guy in Exalted

>>96711523
/tg/ is just /pol/ 2.0 now and the mods encourage it.

I like neutral PCs

>>96697830 (OP)
>Bait this blatant
>Nearly 100 replies