Thread 96717789

Would D&D be better off if it had taken more influence from Robert E. Howard than JRR Tolkien like Gygax originally intended?

>>96717789 (OP)
D&D would have been better if had more influence from Al Capone.

>>96717811
You mean this guy?

>>96717789 (OP)
You mean making it about eldritch undertones, special snowflake self-inserts, and mommy issues so severe separation becomes plausible cause for suicide?
No it wouldn't have been better, it would just converge towards what it became today whole lot faster.

>>96717789 (OP)
>JRR Tolkien influence.
It is pretty skin deep.
For example orcs are green Martians, and elves are from other authors.

>>96717789 (OP)
Nope.
I think the balance was pretty good.

>>96717789 (OP)
Nope.
It wouldn't matter in the long run.
The business model encourages incorporating EVERYTHING into the DnD.

>>96717789 (OP)
I don't see the tumblrcore sparkle fairies gravitate toward sword and sorcery, so

>>96717789 (OP)
It did you absolute moron

>>96717789 (OP)
>>96717811
>>96717867

>>96717789 (OP)
nothing wouldve stopped Gygax’s hackery from ruining it

>>96717896
Man you are butthurt about something...What that is, I have no idea.

>>96717789 (OP)
It took most of its inspiration from Jack Vance, unfortunately.

>>96718370
That is not an inaccurate assesment of Howard's work and life, if more than a little reductive.

>>96718032
>still upset about Tumblr years after it effectively died
Rent. Free.

>>96717789 (OP)
Iunno if you can peg Gygax as a strict Tolkienian.
I think there have always been sword and sorcery influecnes in D&D.

>>96717896
Howard was murdered by the US government for writing propaganda for Germany and the infamous "Momma's Boy" cover story was written to slander him after his death so that his work would be brushed off as weak and ineffective. Luckily it didn't work and he inspires people to this day.

>>96718558
Did this come to you in a dream?

>>96718555
>not a strict Tolkienian
No kidding, anon. First edition had kubg fu movie monks and the wizards weren't secretly angels.

>>96717789 (OP)
>>96717867

>>96717789 (OP)
D&D would've been better off if the people that created and managed it hadn't been greedy, short-sighted, or in the cunt's case, actively despised D&D. D&D would've been better off if it hadn't been sold to a playing card company that did not understand how to make an RPG. Fortunately, because no one can take your PDFs from you, you can go play earlier D&D before it got assraped by coke huffing hucksters, hideous harridans, and credit-thieving hucksters who steal credit for awful games they had no actual sweat in developing. In fact, because they're so old, there's decades of finely-made houserules and both fan and official back material to fire your imagination along lines Tolkienian or Howardian or anything in between.

>>96717789 (OP)
It was the player-base that moved more towards epic fantasy and away from Sword and Sorcery. Dragonlance (which is just LotR but Mormon) sold like hot cakes specifically because it was where the costumers were already headed.

>>96718558
>Howard.
>Pro Germany.
Did you read his works? It is full pro Irish/Gaelic

>>96718558
I'm actually interested

>>96717897
Yeah, the LOTR influence on D&D is very skin-deep to anyone familiar with how Elves, Orcs, Dwarves and even Men are in Tolkien's works. Legally-Not-Hobbits are as close as it gets and they still don't match THAT well.

>>96717897
>For example orcs are green Martians
Whoa whoa whoa. I thought they were black?

>>96717789 (OP)
No.
R.E Howard made some good fiction, but DnD is already 'haha magical racism land' enough without Howard's pathological obsession with nordic white supremacy plaguing everything.

The Conan series is probably his least racist work of fiction. In that it describes the superbeing epic northman not-viking protagonist as Olive skinned, coming from a gloomy, desolate place, the wild cultures are represented fully, and the genuinely horrifying evil negroes that kidnap white women are written just right that they might be fantasy monsters and not just tall black tribal humans.

Both were phenomenal writers, worldbuilders and fantasy designers. And also conservatives. But Howard almost always gave varyingly strong whiffs of 'white northman good, other man bad, muh human white man spirit' in his work, while Tolkein demonstrated a far more considered and thoughtful approach about things.

>Inb4 Howard hate, woke troon accusations and inevitable fa/tg/uy sperging at criticizing the author of the Conan books.
Both were great men coloured by their time and society. Both were to extents, sexist and racist. Except Howard wrote his books about superior men doing superior things, while Tolkein has a warrior woman realize battle actually holds no glories or joys despite her great achievements, and finds greater fulfillment in more traditional, modest pursuits.

>>96719081
They are based on the Thak from Barsoom, the fantasy goblins are the descendents of the Tolkien's orcs.

>>96719081
No, black Martians are air pirates that come from Phobos.

>>96719097
>Howard's pathological obsession with nordic white supremacy plaguing everything.
From where this meme came from? Conan was described as southern by the Nordics, and Kull outright was described as not being Nordic when he time traveled to fight against the Roman legions invading the British Isles.

>>96719097
>nb4 you accuse me of that which I am

yes we know you're a troon trying to attack the pillars of fantasy you fucking tranny. we're going to kill you.

>>96719097

Imagine seeing this and complaining about racism. Sorry pal, 2018 is over.

>>96717789 (OP)
>Would D&D be better off if it had taken more influence from one of its primary influences for the first 20 years of its existence?
Capone would roll Wizard, prove me wrong.

>>96719097
REH wrote more about civilization vs. barbarians than he did about one race vs. another. He felt that races had certain inherent virtues and flaws, which is certainly racist, and obviously had a bias towards Christendom (moreso seen in stuff like Solomon Kane) but he's not the virulent white supremacist you're painting him as.

>>96719013
His source is: He made it up

>>96719097
Amateur...

>>96717789 (OP)
>faggot seething about Tolkien in a new and boring way
Please fuck off. You don't even play D&D

>>96720302
Seethe all you want, it's the truth.

>>96719013
Look into it, start by looking into the "rumors" that REH was writing propaganda for Germany

>>96718555
I'm not gonna peg Gygax at all. What do you think I am, gay??

>>96720512
So you don't have proof

>>96718663
WotC started off as an rpg company. After all, they printed "The Primal Order", and was in legal hot water with Palladium Games when Garfield contacted them about making Robo Rally.

To call WotC a card game company, particularly in the 90's isn't fair. Though, because they acquired TSR, we never got that MTG RPG.

>>96720875
It's endlessly funny to me that there is a directly line been Papa Kev being a cunt and current day d&d. It's the dumbest butterfly flapping the ugliest wings.

>>96720929
>Direct line between
Fat fingered that shit.

>>96719097
The fuck? It was all about Civilization vs Barbarians. It had nothing to do with "White Man." You Aunt Karens need quick hating on anything white being seen as good. Hell, you must be thinking Conan is Arnold or something.

>>96717789 (OP)
It is more howard than tolkien fuckwit.

>>96717896
t. Alan Moore

>>96720340
I like how Lovecraft and Howard were penpals and both helped eachother grow as people.
Also conan fighting an elder god will always be great.

>>96717789 (OP)
it did

>>96717789 (OP)
Dumb question.
D&D took a lot from Tolkien, sure. But it's just one of many. Tolkien races are just one element along Howard's murderhobos or Moorcock's metaphysics (the guy everyone forgets about depiste being ripped off as much as Tolkien if not more)

>>96721142
Howard and Lovecraft dying just before WW2 was so unfortunate.These guys could have written so much more, and we would have been spared the lame pastiches by hacks like Sprage DeCamp.

>>96719097
nordics in conan are literally niggers descended from angry snow apes though, you are an idiot

>>96719097
>Except Howard wrote his books about superior men doing superior things
Reminder that Conan's great love was literally a jewess pirate warrior queen leading a band of black slaves, and she did pretty much all the thinking in their relationship

>>96720875
That stands them in even worse stead, then.

>>96721433
My ideal world is one where Howard, Lovecraft, and Long all live into the 70's, and President Long is remembered as someone that forged an enduring friendship with France, Britain, Italy, and Germany, and spent many days walking the countryside with Hitler in the 60's.

The world could have been so different and so much better.

>>96719097
You are so unbelievably gay.

>>96719097
>oh noooo le heckin' raycissm!
Kill yourself.

>>96719097
>Foolish dog doesn't know the Cimmerians were actually the Gaels
If you're going to base you argument on race supremacy at least get the race right.

>>96717994
>is retarded
>posts slop
Every time.

>>96719204
>t. has never read Howard

>>96717896
Alright Alan Moore, toddle back of to /co/ so you can start another 'Rorschach was a chud you fucks, stop liking him' thread.

>>96719097
>The Conan series is probably his least racist work of fiction.

Meanwhile in his boxing fiction, specifically Ace Jessei;
>A prophet is not sure of honor always in his own land. The people in Ace Jessel's hometown, with their hot, fierce Southern pride and class consciousness, looked upon Ace as more or less of an upstart, a black man who had forgotten his place. They resented his victories over white pugilists and felt as if the fact reflected on them, somehow. This hurt Ace, hurt him cruelly...

Are you done being a retard and shooting your mouth off about things you have less than no understanding of? Or do you want to put the special little propeller hat I just flicked off your head back on, put on your clown shoes, stamp your feet and double down?

Pre-2nd edition AD&D didn't really care about Tolkien at all.
Once you read some Appendix N you'll understand.

>>96717789 (OP)
>Robert E. Howard
God no. Howard was a literal hack. As in he continually added extra words for no literary reason, because he was literally getting paid by the word. His writing is unbearable.

Every thread that bashed Tolkien invariably turns to shit.

>>96722835
They start shit in the first place

>>96721981

I actually did. There are some chracters portrayed as exotic some help Conan and others are evil villains; warriors, bandits or wizards. None of that amounts to racism; non-Whites can be bad, as opposed to what you're told. Hell, even his Pictish characters may have been olive-skinned.

To summarize, yeah you're woke and you're trying to cover it up.

>>96718558
>>96720512


> I might also point out that no one has ever been hanged in Texas for a witch, and that we have never persecuted any class or race because of its religious beliefs or chance of birth; nor have we ever banned or burned any books, as the “civilized” Nazis are now doing in “civilized” Germany.

REH letter to Lovecraft in 1933. Where did you even hear those rumours?

>>96722996
>even his Pictish characters may have been olive-skinned.
Those are actually native Americans, apparently the Americas were under the sea during hyperborean times.

>>96722454

Go read Pride and Prejudice, pansy.

>>96723012
I had thought they were based on the actual Picts, being called 'debased White men' at several points.

>>96718397
>>96718397
>>96718397
you mean the vice president of the united states of america? that fat boy from ohio?

>>96723061
They are a mix, they originated from far away western islands, and they have a lot of indigenous trappings.

The ones that remained in the British isles, became dwarves.

>>96723015
I like Jane Austen although Northanger Abbey is my personal fave. Howard is bad at writing. The Conan novels are worthless trash.

Here is the first paragraph of the first Conan novel:
>OVER shadowy spires and gleaming towers lay the ghostly darkness and silence that runs before dawn. Into a dim alley, one of a veritable labyrinth of mysterious winding ways, four masked figures came hurriedly from a door which a dusky hand furtively opened. They spoke not but went swiftly into the gloom, cloaks wrapped closely about them; as silently as the ghosts of murdered men they disappeared in the darkness. Behind them a sardonic countenance was framed in the partly opened door; a pair of evil eyes glittered malevolently in the gloom.
Shadowy, gleaming, ghostly, dim, veritable, mysterious, winding, masked, hurriedly, dusky, furtively, swiftly, wrapped, closely, silently, ghosts, murdered, darkness, sardonic, partly, pair of, malevolently

Remove every single one of those unnecessary words and it's a better paragraph that conveys clearer meaning.

This is trash-garbage-ass writing.

>>96723124
Oh god it's a Hemmingwayite.
Get thee gone, goblin of brevity.

>>96723134
It's just good versus bad writing, anon. Sorry your taste is so terrible and you're so poorly read.

>>96723139
>No, my writing is objectively good because I took out all the richness!
Yeah?
My cooking is good because I serve plain white chicken meat without any sauce for every fucking meal.
Retard.

>>96723152
That's not "richness." That's grabbing a thesaurus and adding in as many words as you can because you're paid based on how many you use. It's blah-blah for the sake of blah-blah. It communicates nothing. Dickens was also a literal hack. When he wanted to use more words, know what he did? Said something. When Howard wanted to? He grabbed a thesaurus and starting typing.

>>96723134
>Hemmingway
This dude was copied so much, that people made literature festivals much it.

>>96723124
All of those words convey meaning, tho
Can you picture an apple in your head?

>>96723228
He describes things being dark in:
>shadowy spires
>ghostly darkness
>before the dawn
>dim alley
>mysterious winding ways
>into the gloom
>silently as the ghosts
>disappeared into the darkness
>in the gloom

What information did you, the reader, get from the literal 9th mention in one paragraph of it being "dark," that you hadn't gotten after the third, fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh, or eighth mention of it in FOUR sentences?

Nothing. You got nothing out of it. It wasn't there for you, the reader. It was there for the acocuntant responsible for paying Howard by the number of words.

That's bad writing. Flatly.

>>96723162
That's not even that verbose paragraph.

>>96723250
See and address >>96723246

It's garbage writing by an author of garbage, intended to sell copies to teenage boys who aren't very bright.

>>96723124
Let's actually test your thesis;
>Over spires and towers lay the darkness and silence that runs before dawn. Into an alley one of the labyrinth of ways, four figures came from a door which a hand opened. They spoke not but went into the gloom, cloaks about them as they disappeared. Behind them a countenance was framed in the opened door; a pair of eyes glittered in the gloom.

Well done, you turned an evocative scene that sets tone and contains a variety of sentence lengths into a list of things happening. Let me wind up the slow clap for you.

You are the problem with modern literature and you think you're far smarter than you are.
You don't enjoy words, you don't want to take your time with them, to soak and taste them, you want things happening now-now-now-now-now like it's a fucking action movie.

If people like you had your way the start of Rebecca would be 'Last night I went to Manderley, btw that used to be where I lived senpai, it was a banging crib before it burned the fuck down.'

You're sitting there casually opinion to the rest of us on the failings of red wine like you're a gods own Sommelier between knocking back swigs from a bottle of Bucky in a brown paper bag and expecting anyone to respect your opinion.

>>96723246
It's called theatre of the mind, retard. Of course you only got "four people running and there's also a city" from all that, but people with functional visual cortex can picture all that. It's not bad writing. You're just a bad reader.

>>96723264
Answer the question, anon:
>What information did you, the reader, get from the literal 9th mention in one paragraph of it being "dark," that you hadn't gotten after the third, fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh, or eighth mention of it in FOUR sentences?
Nothing. Because it wasn't there for you. It was there for an accountant. Because he's genuinely a terrible writer.

>>96723264
>If people like you had your way the start of Rebecca would be 'Last night I went to Manderley, btw that used to be where I lived senpai, it was a banging crib before it burned the fuck down.'

>>96723255
You're a garbage reader that reads everything like a shopping list. Maybe books aren't for you. Have you tried comics? Cartoons?

>>96723275
>It's called theatre of the mind
You think that it being dark was repeated 9 times in four sentences because "theater of the mind?"

I mean sure, if you're worried that your readers are so stupid that you have to restate the same fact 9 times in 4 sentences. But that's more like "theater for the retarded."

>>96723294
>I can't refute your point so I'll try insults
Good one

>>96723298
>You think that it being dark was repeated 9 times in four sentences because "theater of the mind?"

>>96723317
Then you're a fool. It was repeated that many times because Howard was being paid based on how many words he used.

And, having nothing to say, he constantly threw in more words than were needed.

Because he was very bad at writing.

>>96723264
>Over spires and towers lay the darkness and silence that runs before dawn. Into an alley one of the labyrinth of ways, four figures came from a door which a hand opened. They spoke not but went into the gloom, cloaks about them as they disappeared. Behind them a countenance was framed in the opened door; a pair of eyes glittered in the gloom.

>>96723284
Yes or no faggot, is the above sentence better or worse for having all the words you mentioned torn out of it.

>>96723310
It's a jonest suggestion. Frankly it sounds like you just don't "get" books.

>>96723330
>I don't have to answer the question you asked me!
>You have to answer mine!
Nice try. But you're right: without the meaningless adjectives and adverbs, tons of the other extraneous blah-blah has to come out, too.

>>96717789 (OP)
No because the influiences of the game are long since pointless data.
It wouldn't have changed anything except in broad ways that's perceived by people inside and outside of the hobby.

TSR still did the shit it did. Wizards/Hasbro still did and would do the shit it did and does. There'd be nothing different except maybe Barbarian would be the Fighter and Fighter might have a different synonym for its class name.

Nothing in Appendix A has anything to do with how "good off" D&D is. Whatever that means to (You).

>>96723338
Address >>96723246
You can't. It's there because Howard was being paid by the word. Because he was a bad writer. And because he thought very little of you, the reader.

End of story.

>>96718813
>>96723346
The problem is, fundamentally, the consumer. Always has been. Corporate art is like that because they're desperate to appeal to consumers. Everything else is just cope, whether it's blaming Le Woke Hollywood Jews or Wizards of the Co$$$t. Meditate upon this and become enlightened.

>>96718955
nta but I guess he's referring to stories like the Valley of the Worm, where a Pulp Writer has genetic memory of Aryans doing cool warrior shit in pre-history and he talks about the ayans being the master race and stuff like that

>>96723354
>No, I need things said exactly once, I can't engage with them if there's emphasis or thematic repetition.
>And Allah forbid anyone luxuriate in the details of a scene, I need action, I need plot, I need things to be moving right now or else I can't COOM
I don't think your opinion is worthy of dignifying with a direct retort.
You're a faggot, determined to pick a fight like you just got your kid kicked out of his birthday at IHOP and not giving it to you seems to leave you with raisinesq blueballs.
Hope you enjoy knowing you're wrong and a fag though, maybe you should get that checked on.

>>96723394
>I'll make stuff up
>And put it in green text
>Then pretend someone else said it

You have yet to address >>9672324 because you cannot.

Howard's writing is garbage, and I showed you exactly why.

>>96723377
Howard and Lovecraft both drew heavily from the same Theosophy blah-blah that motivated Nazi mysticism. I know Lovecraft, at least, actively denied believing it. But that's where they both got tons of their ideas.

>>96723405
You're right, I absolutely haven't addressed that.
Silly anon, you can't send a kiss on a wire.
And that's all the retort you're going to get from me, lmao.

>>96723421
>I lost an argument
>What if I try insults?
>Green text strawmen?
>Memes?
I'm well-aware you cannot debate the actual facts when laid out so nakedly in front of you.

>>96723246
I wonder what would happen if you read the night land by W.A Hope.

>>96723417
yeah and Howard also did simmiler pro-Anglo and pro-Gealics in certain stories.
The changing direction of the Picts from Bran Mak Mon to the Picts in Conan stories or in the Valley of the Worm is another odd example of Race

>>96723481
No idea. Never had any interst in it.

>>96720532
>pegging Gygax
thanks for the laugh, Naked Gun-like niggah.

>>96723481
Probably die from aneurysm

>>96723516
We can only hope he would.

>>96723417
Considering the influences from Dunsany, they just smoked hashish

>>96723516
>>96723541
>Have no point?
>Lost an argument?
>Quick, insults!
Keep going.

>I demand you take me seriously!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4e1ND_1_mvs

>>96723124
Imagine reading those bricks about satyrical romance and not liking Conan because too many words. Yeah you're just gay.

>>96723831
>because too many words.
Not what anyone said. The problem isn't "too many words." The problem is hackery: adding words that serve no purpose for the sake of being paid more, when paid by the word. That's what "hackery" is. It's what "hack" means.

Dickens was paid by the word, and is possibly the greatest English-language writer ever. Know what he did, to pad his word count?

Had more to say.

Glad to see Thogg still posts on /tg/

You can infer a lot about a person by their opinion on Robert Howard. If they rant and rave about how he was a terrible writer and a hack who was also a socially stunted momma's boy, chances are the person making those judgements is over or underweight, has patchy facial hair, owns an "I HECKIN' LOVE SCIENCE!!!!!!!" shirt (but any science textbooks he has are buried under layers of dust), wears thick glasses, spends hours on Twitter and similar social media, has a fridge full of Onions, plays no sports and cannot lift anything heavier than their smartphone.

>>96724299
You could have simply said 'redditor' or 'faggot.'

>>96724299
We can also infer that you're incredible insecure about your own lack of masculinity.

>>96724299
>I can't respond to the point so I'll chuck insults
His writing is bad, anon. See >>96723246 for an example of why. No amount of insults refutes facts.

>Howard is bad
>Ignore that he was one of the big 3 weird tales writers.
>Ignore that those stories aren't snacks.

>>96723875

So it's ok when le classicals do it but when Howard does it's meaningless filler? You don't think that old-timey authors were unnecesarily verbose at times, like Jules Verne, Tolkien, Shakespeare or Victor Hugo describing the sewers of Paris?

There was nothing in your excerpt that was redundant or filler to make a buck. In fact, if he had wanted to just make money he could've said "They did not speak" rather than "they spoke not", so it's just your assumption.

Let me guess; are you left-leaning and bisexual?

>>96724350
>N-NO U!!!!!!!
lol, feeling called out there?

>>96724364
Say it again without crying.

>>96723264
>>Over spires and towers lay the darkness and silence that runs before dawn. Into an alley one of the labyrinth of ways, four figures came from a door which a hand opened. They spoke not but went into the gloom, cloaks about them as they disappeared. Behind them a countenance was framed in the opened door; a pair of eyes glittered in the gloom.
Man, clearly that's too many words. We can cut it down further.
>There were spires and towers. It was just before dawn. There were four dudes. They came out of a tavern. All of them wore cloaks. They fucked off into the dark.

See, isn't it so elegant and based and literary and shit?

>>96723369
Fake news. The consumer particularly loathes corporate art.
And ever since Gygax was removed, it was never at all what the consumer wanted.

>>96724547
Copium. WotC makes money hand over fist, while TSR went out of business.

>>96724553
>WotC makes money hand over fist
>Copium
LMAO
WotC is on the verge of bankrupcy, you retarded nigger.

>>96724560
You guys have been saying "WotC is on the verge of bankruptcy" for well over a decade now. I don't think you know what bankruptcy even is.

>>96724417
>So it's ok when le classicals do it but when Howard does it's meaningless filler?
It's ok when anyone does it well. Howard does it poorly. The result is also "ok," anon. Howard's writing is bad. That doesn't mean it's "not ok." It's just bad. I'm glad you read at all. There's nothing wrong with reading bad writing. Hell, I've read the entire Belgariad, every single Dune novel from his idiot son, and most Conan. If you enjoy reading, you probably read plenty of things that aren't any good. You don't have to pretend that they are, to enjoy them.

>>96718370
I'm just really sad he topped himself off after his Ma died.

>>96724484
Is your point that his writing is bad even if you fix the most eggregious flaw?

Totally agree, anon.

>Howard is a bad writer because he is too verbose.
Meanwhile other Howard's stories.

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Weird_Tales/Volume_15/Issue_1/Dead_Man%27s_Hate

>>96724991
>I'll make things up and argue with those, instead
>No one will notice, right?

>>96725009
See >>96723246

Why are you guys arguing the literary merits of Conan was a midwit who probably thinks Brandon Sanderson is high art? Allow the idiot to have his idiot opinion, arguing about it brings you down to his idiot level.

>>96724991
>>96725023
I see it. And it doesn't say
>Howard is a bad writer because he is too verbose.
It says that Howard's careless padding of his word count that serves no purpose for the reader or story is an example of bad writing. Be verbose! But say something.

>>96725047
>insults
Wow, original. Can't defend against specific examples of how hackish and bad Howard's writing is? Quick! Insult someone.

Maybe no one will notice!

>>96725047
A single one of his books is twice as thick than my Howard's original King Kull's stories collection.

>>96725116
Correct. Word count isn't relevant. Using words well to communicate is. Use two words or ten thousand. Just use them well. Which Howard never got the hang of.

>>96725047
I am arguing more for the readers of this thread, there's a lot of misconceptions around Howard's works.

>>96725096
Padding with words is being verbose.

>>96725047
Considering the way they write, it is probably a shitposter from the Exalted threads.

>>96725116
>a SiNgLe OnE oF hIs BoOkS iS tWiCe As ThIcK tHaN mY hOwARd'S oRiGiNaL kInG kUlL's StOrY cOlLeCtIoN

>>96725136
>Padding with words is being verbose.
Yes, and being a hack is a subcategory of being verbose. I hate dogs. Dogs are mammals. Saying I hate dogs isn't the same thing as saying "I hate mammals."

The problem with Howard's bad writing isn't that he used too many words. It's that he didn't say anything with them.

>>96725136
Yeah, but you don't gain anything by arguing with a poster who's point boils down to
>Howard uses too many words! And that's bad!

>>96725158
>Howard uses too many words! And that's bad!
Not one person made that argument anywhere.

>>96725158
I get why you'd invent a strawman, anon. It's a lot easier than losing the argument.

>>96725158
He got to name calling >>96725148
But still, somebody could see read Deadman's hate because of this thread

>>96725162
Literally did repeatedly.

>>96725147
>Considering the way they write, it is probably a shitposter from the Exalted threads.
Please elaborate.

>>96725208
>I'll just insist other people used the strawman
>Then I can argue it, right?
You're not arguing against anything anyone said, anon. No one claimed Howard's writing is bad 'cuz it's verbose.

>>96725266
>>96723124
>Remove every single one of those unnecessary words and it's a better paragraph that conveys clearer meaning
Here you are complaining about him being verbose.

Than here >>96725123
You say that Howard is bad regardless of the amount of words.
Despite your only argument being that he pads his books with words, despite it being proven untrue.
Padding a work with words, is being verbose.

>>96725266
See
>>96723124

>>96725236
Some times a shitposter appears in Exalted threads with the same shitposting style.
Once he debated about "evil for evil sake" in children novels.

Lads, remember.
The Moon cares not about the howling of the Faggot.
Let him whine.

>>96724862
>I'm glad you read at all. There's nothing wrong with reading bad writing.

passive aggressive backhanded compliments, another sign you're effeminate.

>>96725320
>>96725323
Nope. Read the comment. Not just your recharacterization of it. His using too many words isn't the problem. His using them to say nothing, is.

You'll have to address the argument. Not just a strawman you insist is close enough.

>>96725687
>His using them to say nothing, is.
But Anon, you're saying sucking nothing and repeating yourself constantly, don't you see the hypocrisy?

>>96725347
>Agree with me or I'll insult you!
There's a reason that Howard is widely condemned as a hack by everyone in the world outside your safe space. Just be honest with yourself, anon. It's ok to read schlocky, trashy, pulp.

You don't need to pretend it's better than it is.

>>96725469
>I have no point so I'll try insults
Go for it.

>>96725709
I have said very specific things about what's particularly bad about Howard's trashy writing, here: >>96723246 & here: >>96723124.

The responses have been insults and strawmen, and not one word otherwise. Not one.

>>96725735
>The responses have been insults and strawmen, and not one word otherwise. Not one.
No, you just ignore any post that points out you're a retard and so we're heckling you. There's a difference between 'Heh, I'm so right, no one dares argue' and 'Everyone look, this fucker is standing here with custard in his pants, lmao, come laugh at him'

>>96725765
Nope. Not a single attempt to refute a single thing I said, except one dude making up a strawman that my argument is "too many words." Which it flatly isn't. It's about how he uses them to accomplish nothing.

>>96725765
>I'm too good to argue with you, is why I have no response!
Yeah man your time is clearly far too valuable to engage in debates on the internet on the merits.

>>96725776
>it's not too many words, it's too many words for the job!
U-huh.

>>96725955
You're almost there, anon. Keep working at it and you'll figure it out. I believe in you.

>>96725735
You started with the insults
>>96725148

>>96725710
The only people who did it, based their views on a highly inaccurate biography, namely Alan Moore.

>>96725776
>Howard is bad because he paddis his works with words.
>He didn't, here is an example "Deadman's hate".
>Nu hu, he is bad.

>>96725955
It is the Exalted shitposter, he is genuinely mentally ill.

>>96726053
That's not me, genius.

>>96726057
I have never read it. I have read Howard. And used quotes from his books to point out what's so trashy about his writing.

>>96726109
Literally quote the first paragraph of the first Conan novel (the topic of conversation) to illustrate the exact point.

But keep trying to argue a strawman and use insults.

>>96719097
>faggot that never read Howard.

I am surprised by him targeted Howard instead of the usual Tolkien.

>>96723548
Good job finding yourself, retard.

So most of the butthurt is about Howard writing about white male heroes.

I wonder if anyone reads about le heroic niggers unironically? Is there even such a genre beyond some pathetic comics? I don't think I've heard about any single one lol.

>>96717994
Is this gokun?

>>96717789 (OP)
Tolkien enjoyed Howard’s work.

>>96726323
>I wonder if anyone reads about le heroic niggers unironically? Is there even such a genre beyond some pathetic comics? I don't think I've heard about any single one lol.
There were some in old pulp stories, the plot twist in one was surprising

>>96726387
That's a tall praise, the old man was notoriously picky.

>>96726109
>It is the Exalted shitposter, he is genuinely mentally ill.
So OSR has an insane poster that won't fuck off, Exalted has an insane poster that won't fuck off...
Do any other generals have insane posters that won't fuck off? Is this boards server kept atop an Indian burial ground or something?

>>96726323
>I wonder if anyone reads about le heroic niggers unironically?
I do and I'm a Conan reader.
Solomon Kane is based and so is N'longa. I won't hear a god damn work against the dick shaking shaman and there's nothing you /polsluts/ could do to tarnish his name.

>>96726416
When Tolkien was given an anthology of Sword & Sorcery stories that included Howard’s "Shadows in the Moonlight", he told the guy who gave him the book that he “rather enjoyed” the Conan stories. But I guess we don’t have any further details of exactly what he liked about them.

>>96726592
Very simple: they were the essence of what he considered fantasy should be. He considered fantasy an escapist's work, and Howard, for all his flaws (being verbose was NOT one of them, despite the idiot claiming so) was good at writing pulp fantasy that really did take you places and explored strange things.

He found it enjoyable because it was something he liked reading, which was escapist fantasy written by a good writer - and unlike anon above he knew of what he spoke..

>>96717867
I could have fixed him.

>>96726592
he didn't like the Clark Ashton Smith story that was in that collection, since he apparently wrote a small comment about it being vulgar and obscene
Though apparently CAS did like the Tolkien books he read, which I think makes him the only one of the Weird Tales trio to even read Tolkien

>>96726527
>Solomon Kane is based and so is N'longa
Tell me more.

>and there's nothing you /polsluts/ could do to tarnish his name
Except to make a buckbreaking fanfic, he-he-he.

>>96726730
Right, basically Solomon Kanes entire hook is 'Puritan man goes to Bunga Bunga Darkest Africa, deals with pagan bullshit but sees no proof of the existence of god in the process'
His backstory is mostly implied through the stories rather than given, but he's a wanderer, a warrior for good and justice in a dark world, the kind of guy who'll throw his hat in with the innocent without a second of hesitation regardless of personal risk. He predates Conan funnily enough and Conan was actually introduced in the following way:
>a barbarian adventurer named Conan, remarkable for his sheer force of valor and brute strength. Its author, Robert E. Howard, is already a favorite with the readers of this magazine for his stories of Solomon Kane, the dour English Puritan and redresser of wrongs

N'longa is one of his most staunch allies, a shaman and wielder of pagan magic who is an absolute, 100% bro of the highest order and gets one of the best speeches on the nature of good and evil in the entire Howard bibliography.

Where Solomon chooses to be good because he's a good man who can't even comprehend the idea of being bad? N'longa has it well within his grasp to be an absolute bastard and yet chooses to be good because it is his power to do with as he sees fit. In a world of black magic he is a man who goes 'I may be black, I may have magic, but I'm not stealing some guys bicycle or his body.'

Howard was a King and N'longa is some King shit.

>>96726592
Makes sense.

>Olivia closed her eyes. This was no longer battle, but butchery, frantic, bloody, impelled by an hysteria of fury and hate, in which culminated the sufferings of battle, massacre, torture, and fear-ridden, thirst-maddened, hunger-haunted flight. Though Olivia knew that Shah Amurath deserved no mercy or pity from any living creature, yet she closed her eyes and pressed her hands over her ears, to shut out the sight of that dripping sword that rose and fell with the sound of a butcher's cleaver, and the gurgling cries that dwindled away and ceased.

>>96726592
> “Though I might say, I suppose, as a purely personal aside, that all the items seem poor in the subsidiary (but to me not unimportant) matters of nomenclature. Best when inventive, least good when literary or archaic. (For instance Thangobrind and Alaric, both singularly inapt for their purpose) . . . Also I do wonder why you chose that particular tale of Dunsany’s. It seems to me to illustrate all his faults. And the ghastly final paragraph!”
>In his notes, Tolkien had written: “Found [the anthology] interesting but did not much like the stories in it.”
Aparently, L. Sprague de Camp later claimed that Tolkien had told him in conversation that he liked Howards work. We have no actual proof of this. He definitely seemed to dislike the anthology as a whole.

>>96726851
This was the collection apparently
>https://tolkienlibrary.com/tolkien-book-store/000333.php

>>96726851
>Also I do wonder why you chose that particular tale of Dunsany’s.
The Fortress Unvanquishable?

>>96726665
>Very simple: they were the essence of what he considered fantasy should be. He considered fantasy an escapist's work
I'm reminded of that time he critiqued those that denigrated works for "being escapist", arriving to the conclusion that the sort of man who would be most against escapism would be jailors.

>>96726820
I've heard good about Solomon Kane and you sold me.

>>96726873
Distressing Tale of Thangobrind the Jeweler, I think

>>96726889
They're free on Gutenberg, go forth and enjoy my dude.
Usually my pitch when explaining Solomon Kane is this poem:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BXd7nuJkPQ
Which outlines both who he is as a person and some of his tales.
It's a banger

>>96726851
Why would he lie? Any reason he wouldn’t have liked Conan?

>>96726908
De Camp kinda made a career off Howard's work, so if he thought it would make himself look better, I could see him doing a white lie that Tolkien liked the collection

>>96726908
On one hand we have Tolkien, who is on record being critical of just about everything from Shakespeare to Dune to the Sword & Sorcery anthology with a Conan story in it. On the other hand we have de Camp claiming Tolkien said something in private conversation, something that wasn't even in-depth.
>During our conversation, I said something casual to Tolkien about my involvement with Howard's Conan stories, and he said he 'rather liked them'. That was all: we went on to other subjects. I know he had read Swords and Sorcery because I had sent him a copy. I don't know if he had read any other Conan besides 'Shadows in the Moonlight', but I rather doubt it.

>>96726978
I choose to believe that Tolkien enjoyed Conan stories until evidence surfaces to the contrary.

>>96727011
What was Tolkien's opinion on Dune?

>>96727041
He disliked Herbert's works with some severity for not being escapist enough, Howard's works were plenty escapist.

>>96727041
He disliked it "with some intensity". It's not hard to see why Tolkien wouldn't like a story where religion is explicitly treated as a tool to control masses, but I don't know what his specific reasons were.

>>96727041
To roughly paraphrase
>If I have to listen to one more lore dump about this motherfuckers worm based tax policy so fucking help me-

>>96727101
least tokkein then know what his colleagues meant when they said
>God, not another fucking Elf

>>96727041
He thought it was bad (which it is).
>>96727011
Howard had a natural talent for writing that when he wasn't just doing for spec to make money, showed pretty plainly. Given a longer life I think he would've only continued to improve.

>>96717789 (OP)
I will rape OP

>>96727011
>Shakespeare
To be fair the criticism for "no man of a woman born", is fairly common.

>>96717789 (OP)

But it did already get more. At least THAT is not Gygax/Anderson's fault, unfortunately nerds aped more Tolkien after the start.

>>96727081

Based but that's not Herbert's worst thing, or course.

>>96724417
>Let me guess; are you left-leaning and bisexual?

Hey, I am, but REH is pretty good. As is I think he has a pretty good control on his prose.

If anything he might have had someway longer action in some of his longer works, but that's a not "too words".

>>96721433
I can imagine Howard having one of his heroes get time-warped to the present day and go on a merry rampage through some unfortunate Wehrmacht unit. Kane would probably work better, but there's a certain appeal to giving Conan an MG-34.

>>96721433

I dont' think it would have have impacted HPL's fiction too much. I mean, it would've probably made him lean even more in certain directions like the "fascism" of the Great Race, but I can't see him using the nazis directly that much.

Probably the technological innovations, THOSE would've been right up his alley. Antartica is mapped and the oceans are being too? Who cares, the space race is here to grab

>>96727424

I'll add that eerily enough he did manage to have the svastika used against a, uh, "minority" in The Shadow Over Innsmouth in friggin' 1936. Considering the end the hybrids/deep ones in camps it's something.

>>96727477
See his correspondence with Howard, here >>96722996

>>96722996
>> I might also point out that no one has ever been hanged in Texas for a witch, and that we have never persecuted any class or race because of its religious beliefs or chance of birth; nor have we ever banned or burned any books, as the “civilized” Nazis are now doing in “civilized” Germany.
Hm, I think I know what happened. It takes at least average level of intellect to understand sarcasm. So while this line of conversation may be fine between two professional authors if the letter were intercepted by policeman or curious postal office worker it might lead to wrong conclusions.

>>96727519

I don't see the point.

>>96727122
Despite the stereotypes about Tolkien and elves, he never reached the feet of the female writers.

>>96717789 (OP)
To be fair classic D&D is basically Howard, Tolkien, and Moorcock worlds all kind of mixed together.

>>96725735
Fag.

>>96717789 (OP)
The mechanics would still be shit.

>>96717789 (OP)
>>96717867
It's fucking weird how much he looks like al capone.

>>96729037
That's how most men looked at the time, at least those who could afford good food and nice suit.

>>96717789 (OP)
>>96717811
>>96717867
Smiled a little. Well done lads

>>96729037
have you considered it's the other way around? Gangsters tried to look like respectable men in suits. This imagery became associated with them.

>>96717789 (OP)
No, I would rather it butcher and Flanderize the themes of Tolkien. Because I like Howard more.

>>96729110
>>96729250
I mean I get it, a lot of it is the hat. Grandad looked like he was in muder inc. All things considered, he probably was in murder for the money. Hopefully to pay for med-school which he went to. But uh yah

>>96729344
Being the only guy in the class that already has experience cutting up human bodies would put him well ahead of everybody else.

>>96719097
The author's personal views don't matter as long as the story is good.

>>96729366
You have a point that I've never considered. Even our Rabi didn't like him, which was odd as part of his job is to love everyone

>>96729384
shut up, Joanne

>>96722835
People who dislike Tolkien are not good people, and little good can come from evil folk.

>>96723139
Fuck off and never come back to here or /pulp/ ever again.

>>96723284
>What information did you, the reader, get from the literal 9th mention in one paragraph of it being "dark,

There is no need for it convey "information", it conveys ATMOSPHERE.

>>96729447
But anon, it isn't a terse, laconic recitation of information, that means it's baaaaaaaad!

>>96725735
Why cast pearls before swine? You'll just roll around in shit, content in your idiocy.

Only tangentially related, but I just finished the first Conan Omnibus and those comics are the shit, I highly recommend.

>>96726508
my favourite is the guy who turns up whenever the night land is mentioned to aggressively shit on it

>>96726508
Wfg used to have a guy insanely obsessed with Chaos, Carnac. The way to troll him was to remind him Belakor was once defeated with mere rocks.

>>96729480
This. The best stories out there are just endless list of events. "Bobby drove car. He was going to get groceries. But there was a cat on the way. Bobby swerved and managed to avoid the cat, but hit a tree in the process. Bobby was sad." There. Instant masterpiece.

>>96726372
No...

>>96730076
Profound and insightful prose speaking to the human condition.

>>96730076
Remove all the punctuation and add in 1 purple metaphor and you have a Cormac Mccarthy novel.

>>96730165
>bobby drove car
>he was going to get groceries
>but there was a cat on the way
>bobby swerved and managed to avoid the cat but hit a tree in the process
>the crash of his bumper hitting the tree was as the skull of a rawandan baby smiting against the trunk
>bobby was sad
Gib publishing plz

>>96730213
Too White.
Rewrite it from the perspective of the cat, and adopt the pen-name of an African American woman, and maybe we talk.
- T. Penguin, Randomhouse, any publisher, really.

>>96730386
>From the perspective of a cat
Can't I just make the man a Mafia Billionaire then throw in a steamy sex scene between him, the vet and the dead cat and call it a day?

>>96726889
It's good fun stuff and it's a real shame it took to the 70s and 80s to really see it come round again. Their are ridiculously silly things like the chase he details where he keeps missing the villain until he catches up.

fuck this one jew tranny shit this thread up properly didn't he boy? What a cunt! you will never be a woman idiot

>>96723343
Your question is retarded. The point of prose is not to convey information as efficiently as possible.

>>96730446
It is because of the copyright holders, fortunately in a few months, more will enter the public domain

>>96730057
To be fair, its prose is so bad, that even Lovecraft called him out.

>>96730843
Neither Lovecraft or Howard had good prose, technically speaking. But they both were pioneers with strong visions that really hit the zeistgeist of their time.

That's why they were so influential, and why are remembered while Nobel prize winners and writers chasing technical perfection are forgotten the moment they are out of mainstream media focus. And even when people doesn't know them, they're still consuming media based in their work.

>>96730924
>Neither Lovecraft or Howard had good prose, technically speaking.
Disagree, people rave about technique all the time but fiction writing, and particularly genre writing, is like poetry.
It's vibe based, about giving you a picture in your head through words, evoking a certain image and feeling and anyone that tells you there are certain rules to follow is likely attempting to manoeuvre themselves into a position of authority over others.

It's very telling that you can have the feral, untrammelled passion of writing like Howard and create something that resonates with countless people, only for some slackjawed faggot with a smug look to go 'Ah yes, but is it as good as 'Pontifications upon the Field'', a 4,000 page story about Romanian Turnip Enthusiasts that no one has ever actually finished because there's a flipbook of the author beating himself off on pages 69-420 and we're expected to somehow take such people seriously.

Pic very much related.

>>96730957
Why did so many people think Howard was some kind of idiot Savant when it came to writing?

>>96730826
Correct: It's to meet a pre-determined word-count that has nothing to do with the writing. Which is why it's such hackish trash.

>>96730992
Because the idea of a big, beefy Texan who has never even considered going to the coast being the best writer of a generation upsets their conception of the world.

They want to pigeon hole anyone who doesn't live within shambling distance of a Starbucks as a stupid, buck toothed, cousin fuckin', meth cookin' Appalachian Redneck and the idea that such people have souls, feelings or something to say and that worse, it might be deeper than the trials and tribulations of a bigender polytwink working as a barista in California to pay off their Feminist cock fondling degree with a PhD in ethical slut studies (Applied) is as alien to them as having a healthy relationship with their dads.

>>96730843
yeah it's got a bunch a bunch of problems
>clumsy faux 18th century prose
>700 page novel, 500 of which are superfluous
>completely unnecessary scenes of wife beating and foot fetishes
the setting he created is so fascinating however that it makes up for everything else. too bad Hodgson died in the first world war and couldn't expand on it

>>96730992
A) people only care for him as a writer.
B) the ton quantity of it.

>>96730992
I think Howard was a genius and his writing is amazing. I don't care about what all the pseuds and pseudo-intellectuals say.

>>96717789 (OP)
No, because Howard's works were less fantastical than Tolkien's.
They had less room for real fantasy realms and cities and worlds that don't work like our own. With pantheons of unique gods and crazy races of people.
Howard's Conan is a souped up version of what he wanted to be historical fiction. It was cool, but the imagination only existed as far as it replicated a mirror of the real world with perhaps a magical villain that would be killed by the end of the story. Reasserting normalcy.

>>96731124
The mages from Howard had more magic than the not!Angels from Tolkien.
They could send somebody 100 000s years to the future, and erase somebody's existence with mirrors

>>96722996
>we have never persecuted any class or race because of its religious beliefs or chance of birth
He's clearly fucking around here, dude.

>>96731140
You're right that they had more powerful and present magical powers as individuals, but the world they were a part of was less magical as a whole.

>>96731041
>who has never even considered going to the coast
The sad thing he was just before his mother's death and his suicid,e since his Western work was getting traction in more literary circles

>>96731124
>Howard's works were less fantastical than Tolkien's.
>Tolkien: Elves, dwarves, Irish people that are willing to engage in actual civilization, angels, demons
>Howard: It's a giant unspeakable maggot-frog that's older than the stars and has the laugh of a noblewoman ODing on Helium
Nani?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not talking shit about Tolkien, but Howard is absolutely fantastical rather than historical fiction with a coat of paint. Things like the God of Stygia and how its story runs through the entirety of his works across multiple genres is Kino as shit and fantastical as you can imagine.

>>96719097
There is some deliberate irony to Conan's racialization.
I remember in Beyond the Black River how Conan spends a ton of time talking about how much he fucking hates the Picts and thinks they're subhuman animals, and the narration chimes in that nonetheless the Picts were actually still Whites.
Not everything a writer has a character say is necessarily true.

>>96723124
You're right that it is purple prose, but that is part of the fun of it.
It's like how Victorian novels all use 5 words to say what one would have sufficed for.

>>96731192
Hell, the best example of Conan being wrong was in Queen of the Black Coast where he presumes that Bêlits crew would've immediately screamed 'Oh Lawedy! Them's a spookin' mah soul right outta me' then ran a mile the second anything even remotely supernatural happened.

Then we see the actual scene and in reality they fought and died to the last man, even taking out a fair few of the monsters attacking them in the process. It's never pointed out but it's an outright fact of the story that Conan misjudged them.

>>96731041
You just trvked this entire thread.

I've been writing for my entire life, and had read most of the "classic" novels by my late teenager years and I still find greater pleasure in one of Howard's stories than much else in the world right now.

Though I don't appreciate any kind of false Howard / Tolkien dichotomy, both are marvelous for their own reasons.

Fuck gay ass Brandon Sanderson esque slop though.

>>96731219
Bro it's not purple. It's lilac. It's plum. It's magenta and and periwinkle and lavendar. It's the color of wine and the fields of violet. It's the color of the ever-giving pomegranate. It is the precious heliotrope and amethyst!

It's fucking annoying. I got it: purple.

>>96723124
Y r u gae

>>96723124
Go back to English class; you have a paper due about why the curtains were blue.

You boring pompous muppet.

>>96731382
The difference is that a Victorian author wasn't babbling. He or she wasn't just reading you a fucking thesaurus. They would use the additional images to say additional things. Howard doesn't. He just repeats himself endlessly.

>>96731419
False.

>>96717896
Ah, yes, reduce Howard’s entire body of work to pulp tantrums and Freudian trivia. That’s one way to admit you’ve never read beyond a synopsis. The man dissected barbarism, civilization, and decay with more honesty than most modern writers dare attempt. There’s a reason his stories are still read while hacks like N.K. Jemisin, R.F. Kuang, and Joe Abercrombie are all literal-who's.

>>96717789 (OP)
yes, chadward mogs twinkien
/thread

>>96731889
He's cribbing from Alan Moore of all people on the subject as well.
I can't imagine why a miserable, cynical, contrarian leftoid would have issues with a better author than him.
It's a real mystery.

>>96731920
Agreed. The problem with Howard has nothing to do with the content. It's the hacky writing.

>>96731999
>The problem with Howard's writing is that I don't like it so stop talking about it mmmmmkay sweaty?

Who pissed in your cornflakes?

>>96731920
It is Alan Moore, he didn't actually read a lot of stuff

>>96732072
I like it just fine, anon. I like a trashy fantasy novel the same as anyone else on /tg/. I just don't think we have to pretend that the writing is better than it is, to enjoy things. I also sometimes want a cheeseburger. That don't make McDonalds haute cuisine, and there's nothing wrong with it.

>>96732147
>No you don't get it, I like it because it's trashy and bad!

That's too bad, I'm sorry you're poisoned by irony. I like it because it's good.

>>96732147
Thing is, nobody ever seems to be able to level a critique at his writing besides "He use big words, me no like".
It's not like his plotting isn't tight, or like his characterization is inconsistent, or his grammar poor.
Frankly, I think a lot of the people who say his "writing is bad" are just coping because they lack his vocabulary.

Same deal with lovecraft.

>Muh purple prose
is just a way to say "He has a rich, evocative and playfully deployed lexicon, and I hate it"

>>96732365
>If I put it in greentext, I can pretend someone else said it
Cool story.

>>96732369
Then you've missed this entire thread, anon. Because I really, really did.

>>96732369
>Thing is, nobody ever seems to be able to level a critique at his writing besides "He use big words, me no like".
Let's be fair, someone in this thread went with 'He uses redundant words that are bad because they're superfluous and lavishly circumlocutory.'

Which is still retarded fag shit because you can go back and read his 'suggested improvement' then wheeze out a lung as you realize he's trying to give Hemmingway advice while being a Hemmingwanker.

>>96732391
>I'll just deny what I said, because no one can follow a reply chain!

Its sad that you're probably right.

>>96731227
Huh? Isn't that exactly what happened?
>Even as he wondered, the scene shifted abruptly to a jungle glade where N'Gora and nineteen black spearmen stood, as if awaiting someone. Even as he realized that it was he for whom they waited, a horror swooped down from the skies and their stolidity was broken by yells of fear. Like men maddened by terror, they threw away their weapons and raced wildly through the jungle, pressed close by the slavering monstrosity that flapped its wings above them.
>And from the tracks which led out of the glade and deeper into the fastnesses, Conan knew that the spearmen had fled, wildly. The footprints overlay one another; they weaved blindly among the trees. And with startling suddenness the hastening Cimmerian came out of the jungle onto a hill-like rock which sloped steeply, to break off abruptly in a sheer precipice forty feet high. And something crouched on the brink.

I know the former paragraph is technically a dream, but Conan's visions throughout his drug-induced dreaming are meant to be factual observations, they're even written in the same style as Howard does when he narrates backstory in Jewels of Gwahlur and On Hyboria.

>>96731419
>The difference is that a Victorian author wasn't babbling. He or she wasn't just reading you a fucking thesaurus.

>>96721757
VGH
Does sound kino though

>>96735711
N'Gora flees, I'm talking about those that were at the galley;
>From the jungle-edge to the riverbank, among the rotting pillars and along the broken piers they lay, torn and mangled and half devoured, chewed travesties of men.
>All about the bodies and pieces of bodies were swarms of huge footprints, like those of hyenas.
Bit later;
>Conan did not doubt that the slaughter along the river had been massacre rather than battle. Already unmanned by their superstitious fears, the blacks might well have died without striking a blow in their own defense when attacked by their inhuman foes.
>Twenty: then the spears of the pirates had taken toll of the pack, after all.
Keeping in mind there were 50 to start with:
>When dawn spread its white veil over the river, there were no men to be seen: only a hairy winged horror that squatted in the center of a ring of fifty great spotted hyenas that pointed quivering muzzles to the ghastly sky and howled like souls in hell.
It's never outright stated that Conan was underestimating them but the Black warriors were loyal to Bêlit to the last and didn't die like little bitches, they stood their ground against overwhelming odds and slew the majority of the pack trying to protect both the ship and their Captain.
It's not some grand statement mind you, it's there in the text. But Howard was a very clever writer despite writing pulpy action-fests and it's there intentionally.

>>96723124
And here you are wasting time with words when you could have just posted a single image which would be worth a thousand and spare you the tedium of all those .... WORDS.

>>96727101
>tax policy
fuckin' kek

>>96728638
You forgot to mention Jack Vance.

>>96735723
context of that pic? What is he laughing about? The girl?

>>96722996
>using the term Nazi in 1933
Smells like a fake quote

>>96736440
"Nazi" was already in widespread use in english-speaking media via the UK

>>96722996
They made it the fuck up. Basically I don't like said person or their work so going to cancel them and make them a nazi and/or racist. Hell they trying to do that to Tolkien too.

>>96717897
>elves are from other authors
I dunno they feel pretty Tolkien-like, down to not being so vulnerable/impressionable by undead.

>>96736479
I mean, Howard was a racist, even for his time. But he wasn't a nazi.

>>96722996
>implying that just because REH was ignorant in 1933, he was still ignorant in 1936
Retard.

>>96723246
>no I cannot picture an apple in my head
Should've just said that instead of going on an expose of why REH was a great writer and used different evocative ways to describe one thing in different contexts, one of the hallmarks of a good writer.

>>96736479
>Hell they trying to do that to Tolkien too.
Funny because the absolute state of modern UK/England is because of anti Nazis like Tolkien who didn't want to play ball with them at all and completely fucked up their own nation and empire from that fight
Pic related has so many layers to it when you look at modern times
I can't believe people are trying to paint Tolkien like that, assuming you aren't making it up

>>96736714
Shit whoops, misclicked. But I mean I guess that pic works too.

>>96736390
It's a short four-page comic from the Dark Horse run(#18 2003) on Conan

>>96736730
This story has no context in the issue itself

>>96736736
interverining page >>96735723

Final page

>>96736523
Dark elves are from, ironically enough, Moorcock, the normal kind is from Poul Anderson.

>>96731192
If you read his El Borak stories it is very clear he has an admiration for those living the nomadic life in the Middle East, while those who are a part of civilizations, new or old, generally end up being weak or the bad dudes.

Its also clear he has some deal of respect for Native Americans since just about any character set in the 1800's or later that knows how to use stealth comments learning it from the Indians and that they are far more skilled at it and tracking than any other.

>>96719097
Kill yourself.
In real life.
I mean it.

>>96717897
>For example orcs are green Martians, and elves are from other authors.
No you're a delusional retard.

>>96732452
Literally not the clear, cogent, succinct argument that I made already. It's not that Howard uses "big words." It's not that he uses "too many words." It's that he decides how many words to use, then tosses in adjectives and adverbs willy-nilly, for no purpose other than meeting that word count. They convey no information to the reader. They do nothing to add depth, tone, meaning, theming or imagery to the text. They are added to meet a word count. Howard does this in his novels over, and over, and over, as has been clearly demonstrated with specific quotes from Howard. He does this because he is a hack who is pretty bad at writing.

>>96736634
>I'll just make something up and argue with that
>That disproves what someone said, right?
Nope. Your strawman is not convincing.

>>96718663

The Blumes Brothers weren't short sighted, they were riding a dream. A dream to embezzle MILLIONS from Gary Gygax after somehow persuading him that Hollywood would give a shit about his nerdy pen and paper hobby and convincing him to go there personally.
Like, you need to remember that D&D at this time was almost entirely the only game out there. They had the entire market share to themselves and they were making insane amounts of money, and the Blumes brothers stole ALL of those profits. They bought sports cars, made nepotism hires and most infamously tried to raise a 17th century Tea Clipper from the pacific with their ill gotten gains.

And when daddy Gygax came back and found them with their hands in the till, even then they had a plan, as brilliant as it was spiteful. Since he could only prove one of them for definite was embezzling, said brother just gave his company shares to the other, who in turn gave all of his to Lorraine Williams.
Now, we will never know for SURE if they outright told her to crash the company with no survivors, or just assumed that she would do that, but certainly Lorraine Williams antipathy for the company, it's playerbase, and the entire hobby is very VERY well documented.

>>96736986
Just by their size alone you will notice that modern orcs aren't based on Tolkien's.

The modern orc is a green Martian without their extra arms, the modern goblins are the true heir of Tolkien's orcs.

In fact, "goblin" was a name was a name used for them by Tolkien himself.

>>96737062
The importance of Tolkien's influence on fantasy, as a whole, is nearly impossible to overstate. You probably aren't aware of it, but Tolkien was an incredibly brilliant, accomplished scholar who completely changed the way that we study, think and talk about pagan European culture and myth. He revolutionized it, by convincing scholars that it was worthy of scholarly inquiry. Tolkien, not just through Lord of the Rings but through his genuinely brilliant linguistic scholarship, is the reason half the people on /tg/ can give an eloquent history of elves and the sources that influenced them.

Howard didn't accomplish any of that. He and Lovecraft weren't pulling from a scholarly tradition of inquiry into human history, myth and religion. They were pulling from Theosophy. A new-age religion in which a Russian woman claimed to be psychic, that went on to influence such literary heights as the fucking Nazis. Tolkien's influence on fantasy is nearly impossible to overstate. If Howard had had anything close, we'd all be obsessed with Atlantis and find out that the history and myth behind it is about half an inch deep and a straight line to Hitler. It's alright to write pulp and other forms of trash. But you wanna talk about skin deep... my god man. It's because of Tolkien that there's enough in fantasy to produce an almost a century of variations on the theme.

>>96737062

I love those Barsoom books, but Burroughs really doesn't have a good grasp of distances, spaces or time. It can be hilarious at times though.
I remember the final scenes in the second book (Gods of Mars I think?) Which involves a Green Martian cavalary charge in an underground cavern... where they've got 40 foot long lances... but they're charging a distance of only 20 yards. To convert all this into Metric... 12 meter long lances, across a field only 18 meters long.
Again, underground as well.

Or how they find themselves early on in a small apartment, that's 200 feet in length, and half as broad.

>>96737076
Anon... are you OK? Green Martians are from Burroughs, and I mentioned how Tolkien influenced the modern goblins.

>think and talk about pagan European culture and myth. He revolutionized it, by convincing scholars that it was worthy of scholarly inquiry.
Anon... did you actually read pre Tolkien books? Great God Pan and The King of Elfland's Daughter were published decade(s) before the hobbit.

>>96737117
I'm talking about the topic of the thread, anon. Your silly little claim about Burroughs and goblins and orcs is ridiculous.

>Great God Pan and The King of Elfland's Daughter were published decade(s) before the hobbit.
As part of the Arthurian revival. Not as part of the burgeoning fantasy genre that starts with Tolkien.

>>96737076
>The importance of Tolkien's influence on fantasy, as a whole, is nearly impossible to overstate. You probably aren't aware of it, but Tolkien was an incredibly brilliant, accomplished scholar who completely changed the way that we study, think and talk about pagan European culture and myth. He revolutionized it, by convincing scholars that it was worthy of scholarly inquiry. Tolkien, not just through Lord of the Rings but through his genuinely brilliant linguistic scholarship, is the reason half the people on /tg/ can give an eloquent history of elves and the sources that influenced them.
>Howard didn't accomplish any of that. He and Lovecraft weren't pulling from a scholarly tradition of inquiry into human history, myth and religion. They were pulling from Theosophy. A new-age religion in which a Russian woman claimed to be psychic, that went on to influence such literary heights as the fucking Nazis. Tolkien's influence on fantasy is nearly impossible to overstate. If Howard had had anything close, we'd all be obsessed with Atlantis and find out that the history and myth behind it is about half an inch deep and a straight line to Hitler. It's alright to write pulp and other forms of trash. But you wanna talk about skin deep... my god man. It's because of Tolkien that there's enough in fantasy to produce an almost a century of variations on the theme.

>>96737125
>As part of the Arthurian revival. Not as part of the burgeoning fantasy genre that starts with Tolkien
Anon... contrary of Tolkien, neither had anything to do with King Arthur.

>Arthurian revival.
Tolkien was deeply influenced by it, namely Aragon and Gandalf.

>>96737076
>The importance of Tolkien's influence on fantasy, as a whole, is nearly impossible to overstate. You probably aren't aware of it, but Tolkien was an incredibly brilliant, accomplished scholar who completely changed the way that we study, think and talk about pagan European culture and myth. He revolutionized it, by convincing scholars that it was worthy of scholarly inquiry. Tolkien, not just through Lord of the Rings but through his genuinely brilliant linguistic scholarship, is the reason half the people on /tg/ can give an eloquent history of elves and the sources that influenced them.
Tolkien did none of that lmao
Brits were discussing pagan european culture and myth in the 18th century you absolutely retarded tolkiendrone
Tolkien fanboys literally think people knew nothing about european paganism or elves before the release of the lord of the rings. some of the most delusional fanboys out there

>>96737158
Don't let a retard turn it into an us vs them between Tolkien and Howard anon.
He's intentionally brainletting to try and create a false dichotomy between the two.

>>96737158
>Pic.
It is funny how the inverse is as likely, once I saw some say that Tolkien ruined fantasy by creating the Arthurian mythology.

>our resident tolkiendrone thinks the great god pan is an arthurian story
are tolkien fans mentally ill?

>>96737171
He absolutely did. Before Tolkien, Beowulf, one of our earliest and best sources, was completely dismissed by scholars. It was a specific essay and lecture from Tolkien that changed that and convinced an entire generation to begin studying these sources.

>>96737171
I think that post was AI made.

>>96737163
>I have no understanding of history and ltierary trends
Could'a saved us some time by just saying so. These aren't up for debate. They're facts.

>>96737179
Things began to change way before, when the death of Arthur gained a new impression.

>>96737179
>He absolutely did.
No he didn't
People in 18th century Britain were publishing and translating Norse runic poems. Paganism and Pagan discussion were huge in Victorian Britain with there being a semi serious Pagan Revival in Fin De Siecle Britain.
Tolkien kiddified actual European Folklore. He turned Elves from Numinous, Transcendental beings into long lived humans with pointy ears.

>>96737189
See >>96737178

>>96737117
>>96737125

>The Great God Pan

...we talking about the same horror story by Machen?

>>96737205
Yes... there's another older than the hobbit?

>>96737199
>I don't know basic facts of history
Cool

British people in the 1700s
>For the reader must be informed that the productions of the Islandic poets, tho’ quite original and underived, are far from being so easy and simple as might be expected: on the contrary, no compositions abound with more laboured metaphors, or more studied refinements. A proof that poetry had been cultivated among them for many ages. That daring spirit and vigour of imagination, which distinguished the northern warriors, naturally inclined them to bold and swelling figures: and as their mythology was grown very extensive and complicated, the frequent allusions to it could not but be a great source of obscurity to modern readers. It was the constant study of the northern Scalds to lift their poetic style as much as possible above that of their prose. So that they had at length formed to themselves in verse a kind of new language[3], in which every idea was expressed by a peculiar term, never admitted into their ordinary converse. Some of these terms are founded on their mythology or the fabulous history of their gods: and others on some fancied analogy or resemblance. Thus if an Islandic poet had occasion to mention a rainbow, he called it, The bridge of the gods; if gold, The tears of Freya; if poesy, The gift of Odin. The earth was indifferently termed, Odin's spouse; the daughter of night, or the vessel that floats on the ages: In like manner a battle was to be styled, The bath of blood; The storm of Odin; or the clash of bucklers: the sea, The field of pirates, or the girdle of the earth. Ice was not insignificantly named, The greatest of bridges: a ship, The horse of the waves, &c.[4]
Tolkiendrones think that Tolkien invented European people discussing paganism and pagan poems and epics.

>>96737222
You don't know basic history if you think poems like beowulf were unheard of before Tolkien
See >>96737225
But I guess 18th century Diction and writing filters you. Go back to your orcs and hobbits you pseudo intellectual midwit swine.

>>96737225
I am pretty sure that is a shitposter

From a study on the history of English Poetry written in the 1770s.
Tell me again how Beowulf was completely dismissed before Tolkien "discovered" it?

Interesting fact for the thread.
The only surviving copy of Beowulf before translation and copying originates from a book called the Nowell Codex.
We still don't know the full context of its origins to this day, though it's suspected that the part that contains Beowulf runs parallel with the converting of Guthrum in the 890s.
This book was almost lost in 1731 when the Cotton Library, in which it was kept, burned down and only finally translated about 1000 years after its writing in 1786.

We were this close to never knowing this poem existed, to the point where some of the page edges in the Codex are burned.

Shit is wild when you think about it.

>>96737308
And Beowulf (along with everything anglo saxon) was HUGE in victorian england so the idea that it was unknown before tolkien is even more hilarious
>William Morris’s translation with Alfred John Wyatt of the Old English epic of Beowulf was first published at the Kelmscott Press in February of 1895; not until a few years later in 1898 was it published in a more widely distributed posthumous edition by Longmans, in their Poetical Works of William Morris series. Beowulf is thus, along with the Ordination of Knighthood and some of the late romances, one of a number of works that Morris produced specifically for the purpose of giving the Kelmscott Press a selection of brand-new material to go along with its ambitious reprinting program. Beowulf was a natural choice, admired by Morris as being the “first and best poem of the English race [with] no author but the people” (Artist, Writer, Socialist II.494). By the time Morris came to put his hand to the Old English epic, the poem had already become, as contemporary essayists and critics were quick to point out, a staple of university classrooms in the English-speaking world; it was well enough known at first or second hand to literary students and to the surprising number of general readers who had an interest in that sort of thing even so late in the heyday of so-called “Victorian medievalism.” Morris’s translation was not exactly a pioneering effort, either, being only the ninth into modern English; the first had been that of Francis Kemble in 1837, while the various intervening versions can be traced in Chauncey Tinker’s bibliography of translations through to 1903 and in William Magennis’s more recent and thorough study, Translating Beowulf (2011)

>>96737257
Woah, Tolkien invented time-travel! What a genius!

>>96737308
Yes, most of the Trojan circle is lost.

And despite the modern means of preservation, thanks for copyright laws, older literature is at risk of being lost.
Google books at to outright pirate books to preserve them, than pay the royalties afterwards.

>>96737308
>>96737352
I mean.. the Epic of Gilgamesh was well known from its origins in 2100 B.C. until the Roman empire, but then was almost completely forgotten until Hormuzd Rassam rediscovered it in 1853. Really makes you think.

>>96738312
And we don't have a complete version, from time to time people find new pieces of it.

>>96737046
Gary could've solved a lot of that by just giving a hitman a few grand.

>>96717789 (OP)
it's always been about half and half and half and half when it comes to d&d.
one half tolkienn, one half howard, one half moorcock, and one half of any other fantasy/sci-fi influence you can shoehorn in without the pesky lawyers noticing.

>>96719097
this retard needs to go back