Thread 96755849

You ever wonder why there's so much 'church bad' stuff? Like you'd think that given how fantasy deities demonstrably exist and do indeed grant supernatural powers, there would be less basic-ass iconoclasm.

>>96755849 (OP)
idk idc ask the worldbuilding general

>>96755849 (OP)
Even in settings where gods are demonstrably real, it doesn't mean that they're constantly communicating directly with their followers all the time. And faith =/= a church. A church is a human construct, a hierarchy made by fallible, corruptible people.

And a lot of the times a setting has "church bad" as a setting point, it's usually that the worship of that specific church has been coopted by a different group or entity.

>>96755849 (OP)
Social engineering, mostly. Explaining further than that would invite a complicated discussion.

>>96755849 (OP)
>This thread once more
No, I didn't

>>96755849 (OP)
Because the vast majority of people writing fantasy RPGs in English are atheists perpetually seething at the historically Christian countries they reside in.

Isn't it usually "Church Good" in fantasy?

>>96755888
Checked and correct.

Most JRPGs with a Christian-styled church make them adorably good to the point of naivety.

>>96755908
Most? One of the big jrpg tropes is "we have to kill God!"

>>96755902
usually the institution of the church is flawed but individual members are good (and often chafe under the restrictive church leadership/have special divine guidance/some other fucking thing)

>>96755902
I wish moot was still here.

>>96755917
No it isn't lmfao.

>Alignments
Think man, gods can be evil or good. In a good setting, you'll find both sides of the spectrum.

>>96755902
yep, and when the church is 'bad' usually its just been corrupted by a couple of assholes rather than it being inherently evil.

there are a couple of exceptions but they're far from the norm.

Because mortals are corrupt, and in many settings with real demonstratable gods the writers are retards who want to have their cake and eat it too by keeping said god distant like how we see in real life because they think it makes it more "deep". You'd think for example, a real deity would literally have its equivalent of angels and such hiding/running around to keep mortals in check so they aren't ruining the god's rep, or outright blaspheming and committing evil in their name.

>>96755902
begone cuckee

>>96755849 (OP)

Cultural paradigm shift. Church used to be the good guys of the old world order until its enemies (Freemasonry, Democracy, Judaism, Socialism) took power and occupied all institutions and rewrote history.

Christian morality was replaced with cultural relativism, progress and antinomianism.

>>96756239
That's true in some very recent fiction, but not in the printed material of any tabletops. Hell, even D&D's not gone down that path. The Church Bad thing, especially in stuff older than 2022 is weeb infection more than anything else.

>>96755849 (OP)
Medieval fantasy is based on medieval times when the church really was the biggest force of evil in the western world and near east

>>96756020
>I'm just going to expound on a genre I know nothing about!

You do you, bud.

>>96755849 (OP)
It really boils down to individual clergymen
Bishop Myriel or Friar Tuck were genuinely pursuing good even if that meant bending the rules here and there.
Vs likes of Cardinal Richelieu or Claude Frollo who were undeniably selfish and used hierarchy of church as a cover.
Unruly but fundamentally good novice vs evil that corrupred high ranking clergy makes for great narrative.

>>96756063
>>96755920
These to responses contradict.

in 40k church good.

>>96756258
There's a pretty wide body of historical occasions where the church was subverted by politics, greed or hubris, a good half of the splits in any sect were likely caused by such incidents.

>>96756688
ironic, considering The Emperor was a fierce atheist

>>96755849 (OP)
Like any LARGE and POWERFUL organization. It'll have some bad people in it. It will also have some good people. But mostly it'll have normal people who will be able to do both good or bad depending on what's going on.

Soon, the Church will be good again for counter-cultural reasons because everyone is getting sick of "Church Bad" Nonsense.

In my game it's going to be good.

>>96756742
How good?

>>96756797
So good, it's bad.

>>96756721
In BG3 the church is good

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9cCcGIstCw
Are religious people shown to be wrong here?

>>96755993
Hiro is a fucking paperweight and I hate it.

>>96755849 (OP)
Nah, other way around. IRL religious doctrine can be shaped by human sentiment, if the gods were active forces they would be seen as benevolent dictators at best. Which would not be often.

because the church is bad, what don't you get?

>>96756928
which one?

because people still remember the time when the Church owned like 70% of the land, taxed the people living there and still felt the need of scamming them out of their money with Indulgence

>>96756942
Perfect answer. In fantasy some churches are evil while some are good.

>>96756943
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HaTn3oRPtzg
Ir was Based

>>96755849 (OP)

It's impossible for someone to "deserve" obsessive scraping and bowing just because they exist and are powerful. Why would you put up with anything from a god you wouldn't put up with from a king, other than out of fear which proves they aren't worthy of respect if they use it to compel worship?

Transactional religion where you make payment for services rendered, or the slightly more abstracted version where you look out for a god as if they're a member of the community and receive passive benefits as you would from any community member in good standing is fine, but if the deity asks people to grovel on their knees you need to bust out the torches and pitchforks and chase their clergy out of town to send a message as you would with any other tyrant. If that fails, sending a plucky band of teenagers to kill god has a pretty good track record in fictional worlds.

I mostly wonder where you're seeing all this "church bad" media, because I haven't. Even in Warhammer all the established churches are solidly good even if plenty of the priests are corrupt or mental.

>>96755849 (OP)
Why would there be?
The church in real life can pawn off issues on the fact that God is ineffable and the mysteries of god are inherently beyond our understanding etc.
But in, for example, Forgotten Realms you can directly see the "Good" gods participate in the horrifying scheme that is the wall of the faithless., you can see them take the side of the divine order over humanity, you can be screwed by a decision they made even if they were well intentioned.
In real life purgatory and hell are presuppositions we made about the nature of life and the universe. Here theyre real and the gods are telling you to your face "Yeah what the fuck are you gonna do about it?"

Does your setting have a holy empire?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJSFLS9A3GM

>>96755849 (OP)
It's all by design because God and the church challenges the power of those who want to undermine it.

>>96756928
Why is the church bad?

>>96755888
Trips of truth

>>96756435
Typically the godlike entity you kill is very much NOT God, which is usually why it needs to be put down. Even in SMT it's an arrogant demiurg rather than capital-G God. You might argue that's splitting hairs but it's an important distinction to make, especially if you're trying to lazily liken an animist, polytheistic cultural foundation with an abrahamic, monotheistic one.

>>96756942
>>96756944
Obviously the evil church is good (but misunderstood) while the good church is evil. Because basic bitch subversion drenched in daddy/authority issues makes me an enlightened intellectual.

Easy twist because they are an authority figure you are supposed to trust.
You can make it work but it's like "the butler did it" of world building, you have to put in a lot of work for it to not suck and to present it in an interesting way

>>96757024
>the church of our holy lady of mercy is actually trying to bring about the unraveling of reality by freeing the demon king from his infernal prison
>only the church of st. Bastard the baby rapist stands in their way

Western mass culture is produced by the Jews in United States of America.
(Catholic) Church had been a boogeyman for Americans even before they got conquered by God's Chosen.
And then there's Japanese, for whom Christianity (represented mostly by Catholic missionaries) is a hostile idea attempting to take over their traditional society.
Hiroshima and Nagasaki were biggest strongholds of Japanese Catholics, by the way. In case you wondered why these two were chosen as targets.

>>96755849 (OP)
Traditional games?

>>96755849 (OP)
Because historically large churches used to and continue to shit it up for the common folk. From hypocrisy through moral decay and slowing down progress and up to meddling in national politics to the point of becoming a political power.

While good at preserving knowledge and consolidating national identity big religions fuck it up in the end.

The most amazing thing about this thread is that there hasn't been a single 'nun porno' picture posted yet.

>>96757251
this site is mostly gays and schizo incels that both hate women for different reasons

>>96755849 (OP)
Because stupid atheists and the common trope that the Catholic Church only did horrible things in the Middle Ages and had no redeeming qualities (which of course isn’t true) or that Christianity led to some dark age and book burning (also wrong) and that the crusades were some horrific crime (they were just)

I for one teased church bad for genre convention because my players expected it and then pivoted to church good

>>96756825
Wait. That's just bad.

>>96757251
don't worry anon, I got you.

>>96755888
>>96757280
TBF it's also largely down to protestantism in English speaking countries depicting the Catholic one as evil (let's be honest, all Church bad stories have said Church based off of the Catholic one and not the Protestant ones that are arguably far more corrupt nowadays). You never see criticism of Protestant Evangelicals despite them being far more intrusive in the modern United States.

>>96757209
Meds.

>>96757199
>is actually trying to bring about the unraveling of reality by freeing the demon king from his infernal prison
No no, you've got it all backwards still. God is the evil one and the demon king was trapped in his infernal prison for protecting humanity

>>96757312
Let me do you one better:
>The demon king and God are both evil
>Because the demon king is actually just God putting on a mask
>Just because he thinks it's really funny when humans fight and kill each other

>>96757209
So it was Japanese mole, who targeted Japanese Catholics with nukes? Got it, thanks for info.

>>96757280

>did horrible things in the Middle Ages and had no redeeming qualities

The bad highly outweighed the good. Preservation of knowledge and limited scope of research that Church enabled did not balance itself out with moral decay, fear-mongering, political corruption and stifling of societal progress.

>that Christianity led to some dark age and book burning
For certain societal groups it did. Philosophical hegemonies never worked out well. Of course the Church preserved a lot of information as well. And the idea of Dark Ages is mostly pop cultural bs.


>that the crusades were some horrific crime (they were just)
lol. Lmao even.

>>96757280
>>96757345

Crusades were an aimless mess, but they were in response to the islamic world coming at Spain and the Byzantines - if Europe hadn't responded with a pushback they would have kept going, though the pushback was absolutely completely uncoordinated and chaotic

>>96756959
Are you really such an ungrateful little bitch you can't imagine someone so supreme they deserve your worship?

>>96757359
Strategically sound is better word than just, in that case. And that I would concede.

>>96757365
Not everyone is a little submissive bitch like yourself anon.

If "church bad" is coming up in your games then blame your GM. I can't think of any mass media where it's remotely true.

>>96757321
Now you're trying too hard and dipping into warhams grimderp

>>96757345
>lol. Lmao even.
Brown hands typed that post.

>>96757365
there is no amount of supremacy that means something deserves worship

>>96757447
Not even close, mongrel. But keep licking those priestly boots.

>>96757015
That’s based on a misunderstanding by western fans about the monad and YHWH. YHWH is explicitly meant to be the judeo-Christian god.

>>96757460
You can't fool me, gypsy pajeet. I can smell you from here.

>>96757469
Then take a shower shitskin.

>>96757465
More specifically to expand on this, SMT is one of the few JRPGs out there where you’re explicitly killing the Christian god. According to my Japanese friends the other instances of god being the final boss in JRPGs is based on some Shinto myth thing but in SMT it’s killing capital G-Jehovah.

>>96755917
>game about killing god
>look inside
>demon/corrupted deity/man who gained supreme power/an alien

>>96757365
Imagine being the kind of slave that thinks anyone or anything inherently deserves anything just by existing without earning it in return.

>>96755917
That's a Japanese trope.

>>96757456
>>96757495
We are taught that we deserve hell unless we worship. Hell is an infinite punishment. This can only mean that not worshipping must be an infinite crime, regardless of whether our limited minds understand why.

I am a fan of the way Eberron handles religion. The Eberron method is more "realistic," for lack of a better term: different competing models of the divine, some of which are compatible with one another, some of which boil down to faith in gods whose existence can never be truly verified.

A religion is more akin to a real-world religion in that it presents its own "rules of the divine," which may or may not be compatible with other religions. There is no one universal pantheon in Eberron that all gods get filed into.

Do you like it when a fantasy setting uses this method for distinguishing its religions?

>>96757534
>hell in Buddhism
>you just go there to suffer for a few thousand years before you reincarnate
>punishment is not infinite
>punishment diff depending on your transgressions
>hell in Christianity
>if you don’t worship sky daddy you go to hell forever for the crime of being created and forced to inhabit a painful existence and not being okay with that
>punishment is forever
Makes one think.

>>96757564
>Calvinism
>Free will is a lie, god creates most people specifically to go through their pre planned lives and then to hell
>Still all loving tho

>>96757534
The bible was written by man and even per the bible man is flawed. The whole it being "word of god" literally is a newer concept. The Bible has also been edited, censored, had entire sections removed and added in that it's a jumble of different cultures, time periods and views.

An "infallible book", that immediately starts off with two distinct creation stories, has far more than ten commandments, most of which aren't good moral teachings, and that has been edited and reedited so many times over its entire history. Full of plagiarized ideas from cooler regional religions, depicting a slap fight between many different sources trying to keep their particular version of the fanfic propaganda in line.

God, the worst part about tradcath larpers coming into vogue is how they brought back 00s reddit atheists with them

>>96757303
Protestants were(still are) the discount atheists anyway.
At this point Prots and Evans are basically state, not church.

Rhetoric isn't education.

>>96756943
The church tax was 10%, or the diezmo where I lived. The majority of this kind of terrain was used asa comon of sorts, just the church had the right of 10 of everything you produced in there, but alos you got the protection and to not to pay lots of the taxes than non church lands had, so they were generally a lot better to work for than nobles and mercantile people, especially of you had the local laws(than in my country were called fueros) than gave people lots of protection, tough it changed a lot around the territory. Outside of europe, I see a lot of people thinking the medieval age/laws were some kind of universal, but they were extremely local and changed a lot, even from village to village. There was a village in Guipozkua I think, basque country, where if a woman has his baby born in a rock, it was considered Hidalgo/lowest level of nobility, just for that.

>>96756702
The Emperor created the church by the way.
Since the fucker saw his empire was going to crumble as soon as he was sat on the golden throne he started to influence people into the Imperial cult to keep unity.
Something nuGW hacks forget because they do not know their own ip

>>96755849 (OP)
Because it makes for more interesting stories.

>>96756239
>Freemasonry
lol this faggot's still mad about a boys club for architects in 2025

>>96755849 (OP)
Can you give specific examples?

>>96756239
>Freemasonry
>enemy of Christianity
>who's Jacques de Molay
Fucking burgers are fucking retarded. You absolute mongoloid.

religiosity correlates with low iq. just saying.

>>96757199
>Our Saviour of the Bountiful Sacrifice of the Ugly Bastard is actually dedicated to a Martyr who violated a woman that was due to give birth to the Demon Lord if she remained so and was killed by cultists for fucking up their plans
Truly the hero we never asked for and don't want.

>>96755849 (OP)
>You ever wonder why there's so much 'church bad' stuff?
Name ONE example from tabletop games, please.

>>96758247
Was it a high IQ move to replace White population of Europe with Negroes, Arabs and Indians?

>>96758499
The NGOs bringing nonwhites into Europe are overwhelmingly Christian so I don't know what point you think you're making with this.

>>96758533
>The NGOs bringing nonwhites into Europe are overwhelmingly Jewish
FTFY

>>96755849 (OP)
I genuinely can't remember a single time a module or campaign I played had an explicit "church bad" plotline unless you count cults of evil gods of murder or undead or some shit

>>96756942
All of them. Read God & The State.

>>96758489
He won't answer, he won't even return to this thread he shat out.

>>96756694
That is very real, and often a plot point dealing with the church. But that isn't the narrative trope I'm talking about, kiddo.
Church Bad is more about The Church as being presented as a systemically rotten to the core, which is exceedingly rare in fantasy fiction outside of anime let alone the worldbuidling of tabletop RPGs.

>>96756943
That is a hella post-modern revision of history that doesn't hold up to scrutiny, and it still hasn't really gotten any traction in the worldbuilding of fantasy games.

>>96758141
Literally every DND.

>>96759179
Can you give some specific examples from D&D though

>>96757951
Sauce for this info?
Iirc, he simply did not quash it in it's infancy.

>>96758499
You mean a new subservient worker class to replace the children your stupid white bitches aren't having?
This take is dumb, because you can not blame white women for a problem they made, with your gynocratic, mother worshiping mindset.

>>96759222
Go read DND.

>>96759297
I did. Where are all the evil churches? Every church dedicated to a good god is good. So where them corrupt churches at?

>>96755849 (OP)
Not everyone's fault religion is evil op

>>96755849 (OP)
Religions that invade the territories of other faiths and try to replace and demonize the indigenous religions are pretty evil by definition

>>96755849 (OP)
church bad, orcs good

>>96755849 (OP)
Because megacorpos are inherently evil. And churches churches are the OG megacorpo.

>>96759306
>t. never played DND

>>96755849 (OP)
>be sheltered white middle class dude in his ~ 30s
>grew up in christian household
>religion was "that thing you had to do or mum, dad and your grandparents get angry"
>its the "be a good little timmy and behave" and "no fun allowed" stuff
>small little you gave no fuck about any actual religious context
>come into your rebellious and edgy teen phase
>being a 90s/ early 2000s kid means counter culture is becoming an atheist and shitting on relgion
>dont become a chud later on
>hear about all those pedophile priest cases that surfaced in church mid 2000- 2010s
>you are now in a perfect position to use the church as "socially acceptable and powerful organization that presents itself as good but is actually corrupt and evil"
Seems like pretty logical pipeline to me

>>96759422
Good job finding yourself, nogames tard.

>>96756966
It's coming from retarded nogames who are buttblasted tabletop games don't conform to their /pol/ retardation

>>96759797
That's kind of the deal when you treat the church as a social obligation and chore you are expected to partake as opposed to genuine desire to actually learn and practice the faith.

That and pretending the "do as I say, not as I do" actually means something when you get first hand accounts of the sort of people who say they are going to heaven just like you.

>>96757734
The fedora tipping atheist of the 00s became the tradcaths of today.

>>96758499
>QUICKLY, BLAME BROWN PEOPLE FOR EVERYTHING
>What about Epstein?
>ACK-

>>96759259
2nd Codex sisters of battle page 5.
If you read the entire thing it basically says the Emperor created the church after the horus heresy to prevent the imperium to fall into infighting.
It also kind of implies that the priest of the church where kind of tolerant of different believes in order to incorporate them into the church.
The entire thing looks like the original "totally a plan" the Emperor used to have before the Horus Heresy Black Library books made the Emperor into a total retard

>>96762881
>It also kind of implies that the priest of the church where kind of tolerant of different believes in order to incorporate them into the church.
Unless something has changed recently, that's still the case. The main thing they try to do when they find random primitive or isolated religions is double check it for hidden symbolism or messages from chaos, then try to equivocate the local gods and prophets and heroes with the Emperor and primarchs and imperial saints. Your sun god becomes the Emperor, your world creation myth gets shifted over time to fit the origins of the imperium, the heroes of your stories start to wear power armor in new renditions, etc. The trappings and specific details are not as important as making sure the local practices lock out chaos and xeno religions as much as possible.

>>96755849 (OP)
Okay OP you wanna play games and act stupid? Let me flip the script on you.

How come religionfags have such a problem with fantasy games?

>>96763045
I would even go so far as to say that if anti religious sentiment exists within the community it's pushback against the hostility of religionfags trying to ruin everyone's fun.

>>96763002
This sounds like the kind of thing that only works as long as nobody starts comparing notes. At which juncture there'll be accusations of Heresy (or at lewst Heterodoxy) all round.

>>96763045
satanic panic was never a thing. But le chud panic is a real thing we are still experiencing

>>96755849 (OP)
>You ever wonder why there's so much 'church bad' stuff?
No. Because the church *is* bad. It protects as many or more pedos as the government does. The only thing organized religion gives people besides brainwashing and misery, is an excuse to be shitty people to one another.

Ok, and sexy priestesses, I'll grant. But nothing positive beyond that. Religion should be entirely private and personal between yourself and whatever God you choose, and anyone trying to organize beyond that should be crucified as a warning.

>>96755908
Vast majority of Japanese are Atheists, but they are not the pissy kind that hated going to church growing up. I didn't like going to church as a kid, but my family weren't really religious.
>>96756266
It was one of the biggest forces for good and evil. You have to remember that a lot of things it did were try to prevent incest, witch burnings, as well as preserving information, history, and science from the fall of the Western Roman Empire. And while a lot of things the crusaders did were abominable, but look at a map of Europe and the Mediterranean at 1095. The Islamic Golden Age came at the direct cost of imperial powers plundering Christendom.

>>96763085
>satanic panic was never a thing
Fuck the fuck all the way off, zoomer. Some of us lived through it. It absolutely was a thing. I wish it had stuck just so it would keep smarmy children like yourself out of the hobby.

>>96763085
Did the world not exist before you were born or something you disingenuous retard?

>>96763085
It must be nice to live in a fantasy world where you can just omit things that disagree with your world view.

>>96763107
>>96763112
>>96763122
go back to redit. No one intelligent believes your satanic panic myth, athiests.

>>96763085
Thanks for letting everyone know you are underage and retarded, nogames.

>>96763067
I'm pretty sure they try not to let anyone compare notes unless they're part of the missionary organization or sufficiently adjusted that they can see that those other guys Allfather is the same as their Father of All Mankind.

>>96763002
That has not change, but then again the Imperium does not care what you do as long you worship the Emperor in some form, pay your taxes, no chaos, keep your xenos shit to a minimum and under imperial control.

>>96763202
Then by your "logic" you believe the satanic panic happened.

>>96763092
Can't be ass to find the studies since 4chan wont let me post pdf and considers the websites spams. But statistically speaking your kids are safer with any kind of priest than with a random public school teacher.
Teacher are so much more of a pedo than a priest that priest by comparison look like a statistically anomaly. Still one is one too many, but the issue has been blown out of proportion compared to the absolute pedo mess that are public schools.
And the issue is not just and USA thing the pedo teachers is a world wide issue

>>96763202
I was alive and old enough to be cognizant of what was going on around me. The Satanaic Panic happened. I got sent to a fucking religious conversion camp because my parent's church found out I played AD&D. The fucker told my mom that the advanced version is the one where the game makes you recite real sorcery to play the game.

>>96763423
No it didn't. You are making it up. You are not the only old person around. I lived through that time too.
Its a myth. Bunch of cranks the leftwing media hyped up that had no real influence and never amounted to anything.
>>96763348
this is peak dunning kruger posting. No retard, i just said it never happened. Its a myth, you idiot
>>96763292
low iq d&d atheist lying retard cunt

>>96763423
No it didn't. You can't gaslight people into thinking it ever did. Fuck off back to redit with the old aged out homos

>>96763423
>this guy told my mom, that d&d had sorcery
Were you literally shaking reddit? i got chils reading your post.
This definitely happened and isnt a lie made up to fit an agenda.

>>96763484
>>96763486
>>96763506
>You're lying about it ever happening. Your evidence is overblown. Even if it did happen, it isn't/wasn't a big deal. Why do you even care?
The actual playbook of historic revisionism.

If the """Satanic panic""" was real, you faggots would be able to post some proof. So go ahead. Post proof that can't be digitally altered to fit your agenda, so we can see whether it really happened. I'll bet you can't though, because you faggots are lying.

>>96763112
>>96763057
>>96763045
>AIsloppa

>>96763528
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6HfU0UjcCeE

>>96763519
which is exactly what satanic panic is leftwing media sensationalism. Like the guy that wanted to ban gta, never amounted to anything.
yet the leftwing have banned and censored countless things

>>96758143

It's a generic-monotheist-but-actually-satanist club. Of course it's an enemy of Christianity. You don't have to be actively violently against something outwardly to be an enemy of it - you can also be a subverter that looks to corrupt and change it.

>>96755860
>A church is a human construct, a hierarchy made by fallible, corruptible people.
This. It's not about religion. It's about authority.

>>96755849 (OP)
People upset they had to get up early on sundays to go to church

>>96763679
>yet the leftwing have banned and censored countless things
Exactly this. It's always the leftists telling people how to think and what they're allowed to see. You never see censorship from conservatives. That's now how we work. Censorship is a leftist trait.

>>96763484
>this is peak dunning kruger posting
>low iq
Good job finding your own retarded posts, nogames. I doubt you are old enough to post in 4chan.

>>96763679
>>96763774
>t. retarded and underage /pol/tard nogames.

>>96763936
>>96763926

t. retard tranny trying to push his gay politics

This wasn't always the case in tabletop was it? Any grogs want to chime in?

>>96764045
Grogs won't be believed if they do, so why bother?

>>96764036
Yes, everyone can tell you have retardation from cock overdose.

>>96764097
In all fairness to anon, overdosing on cock is fun and easy. It's actually quite addictive. More failed men should try it.

I would say in FR most good aligned churches are benevolent.

>>96764097
>>96764231
>tranny discord in full groom mode

>>96764235
There's no such thing a genuinely good-aligned church. By the very nature of telling everyone "worship my way or else", you're neutral at *best*, and probably Evil. Threats, coersion, and physical consequences to force someone to behave the way you want them to is in no way a Good act. To say nothing of the ludicrously disproportionate consequences between "not worshipping who I tell you to" and literal eternal damnnation.

>>96764268
but most churches are humanitarian and about giving aid to the needy and helpless throughout history. Traced back to Jewish roots of hospitality.
There was even a crusader group called the hospitalers , where modern hospitals derive from.

>>96764288
Jewish propaganda confirmed. Church is about figuring out who outsiders are and who your friends are, and keeping those groups separated. Empathy is a sin. Kindness is a sin. Church is about power, and God will reward the powerful with more power.

>>96764267
Said the faggot nogames who is going full retard.

>>96764299
Goy, why are we doing propaganda for the guys who regularly accused us of stealling non-existent children?

>>96764324
i think thats one of those bad goys, Sal.

>>96755888
Christanity has zero requirement in being "good" and the church had historically been heinous

>>96764339
yes it does, not really.
Though catholics are largely shitbags, thats mostly a people issue

>>96763314
Yeah, but the Imperium is in a perpetual state of war. At some point, your going to get some guys from different cultures in the same foxhole and they're going to hear each other's ethically exclusive prayer to the same dude. And the Imperium has not embraced the kind of valies that would allow them to see past those differences.

>>96764350
wrong

Posted in the other thread

>>96755849 (OP)
Since more and more queers writers push god bad, nature good shit.

>>96764378
>left side, the og straight male fans (and like minded ladies)
>right side, invading alphabet woke onions feminist trans assholes

>>96764378
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTU_wH9DTv8

>>96755902
>puckee spamming his commissions again
https://www.reddit.com/r/DnD/comments/1j5ot3r/artcomm_sister_althea_human_cleric_by_dennis/
https://desuarchive.org/_/search/image/nJCQeA9MiQuu2AvMvA_6Gw/
>24 times since March 2025

>>96764617
Good. Moar.

Can't stop the signal, chud.

>>96755849 (OP)
Because it's...bad?

>>96755849 (OP)
>You ever wonder why there's so much 'church bad' stuff?
jews, in summation.

>>96764346
That's because they're majority hispanic or Italian or Irish. If most Catholics were white it would be a different story.

>>96764986
Don't blame us for all the horrible shit the Catholics and especially the Evangelicals have done. The Christian Church is toxic beyond repair, and it's long past time for it to be put down.

>>96765008
An actual jew would say that much more deviously, imposter!

reminder when blacks were protestant, they were very civilised, with strong family values, low crime and jobs.
They created amazing gospel music and lived godly lives even in hard times.
Then the wretched ir*sh introduced them to catholicism

>>96765033
Wait, calling someone you disagree with NOT a jew? What sort of loopy world have we entered?

>>96765042
And other racist protestant lies.

>>96765077
>protestantism was the most beneficial and accepting of blacks and did the most good for them
>racist
all the "soulful" black culture is protestant.

>>96765092
Protestantism is a racist as any other abrahamic religion. It's the protestants that are unusually racist.

>>96765105
T. ir*sh hands typed this post.
The ir*sh introduced the black to victim hood culture and alcohol and drugs.

Protestants were the ones that abolished slavery. While catholics were the first and last to practice it.

>>96765113
Igaf about irish or catholics. Protestants were more performative about welcoming minorities but in practice they were as racist as the rest of religionfags.

>>96765126
Not what history tells us. The portugese/spanish who started the modern slave trade adopted the moors customs like the one drop rule. Comes from them.

>>96765138
>portugese/spanish who started the modern slave trade adopted the moors customs like the one drop rule.
Based. Any impurities are grounds for summary execution. Be Aryan or don't exist.

>>96765851
>Aryan
You mean Indian? Because that's where Aryans come from.

I remain unconvinced that the entire christlarp movement is the result of 3rd world internet access and using christendom as a means of inclusion into Whute accomplishment.

>>96755849 (OP)
Iconoclasm isn't against church or faith, it is against idols, condemning them all to be false. Its morality is that people who think a picture of Christ is capable of miracles is attributing the miracle to the object at least in part and not fully to Christ, etc.

One suspected origin of the doctrine was from Greek Orthodox Christians who lived near the Saracens and observed the piety behind calls to not depict god or the prophet and then thought "damn my neighbors do go hard over that heirloom crucifix of theirs, they treat it as magical. Maybe that's a sin."

>>96757491
and all of these are usually connected to the fantasy church, if not its leader/founder

>zoomer thinks the satanic panic wasn’t real because you couldn’t be cancelled on twitter over it
How do you even engage with these people? It’s like talking to someone about before cars were invented.

>>96766179
Source? The satanic panic is pretty well known by all my peers. Are you 't talking to gen alpha or the latter cohort of zoomers? Or did you just meet a genuine retard? I mean I know there's a good reason gamers used to be considered left leaning before gamergate.
>t. elder zoomer

>>96768339
>Go in thread
>Ignore entire thread
>Reply to very last post in the thread with zero context.

Do you not know how a message board works?

>>96763085
>satanic panic was never a thing
Shouldn't you be in school right now lil guy? People in their 30's/40's remember this. It's too early to tell the big lie.

>>96755849 (OP)
What are some settings that actual do a good job of depicting religions then?

>>96763085
People were having their lives ruined because of pearl-clutching soccer moms thought 2 year-olds claiming their school flushed them down the toilet was credible testimony.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McMartin_preschool_trial
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McMartin_preschool_trial

>>96769108
Are gringos retarded?
Because when my third world mom saw D&D and shit like Magic the Gathering they saw dice, numbers and chart and just thought it was nerdy math things.
Worst case some moms thought it was gay as shit due to how some elves looked.
Maybe that is the reason why people question the Satanic Panic and just some case that where blown out of proportions.
I mean if our third world retards didn't panic how the fuck did the people from a super power panic this hard.

>>96769196
It wasn’t even just an evangelical thing either. I was raised catholic and still couldn’t have pokemon cards because they were demonic

>>96765126
Stop trying to make protestants sound intelligent and acceptable anon

>>96769196
>Are gringos retarded?
Yes. Correct.

>>96769251
I find it so strange. I grew with stories about grampa seeing the devil in the forest and with people till very late into the 21 century doing the sign of the cross while passing in front of a church. We where a religious and god fearing bunch.
But like I said worst case parents didn't allowed their kids play Pokémon, magic or d&d because it looked gay as fuck. Which is way more understandable than some satanic shit.

>>96769196
It was a CIA backed psyop, unironically. Americans have been being groomed into cattle for the last century.

>>96769251
I went to catholic school when Pokemon came to America and pretty much all the kids had Pokemon cards and played the games, I think you're parents were just spergs.

>>96755849 (OP)
>You ever wonder why there's so much 'church bad' stuff?
Nope. Because I've always known it stems from people being mad at religion because their religious parents were angry when they came out as gay, or when someone they knew came out as gay.

>>96755849 (OP)
Because TTRPGs are now written and played by people who are mad/angry at god because he made them gay and/or ugly.

>>96756943
Indulgences were for the Rich who could afford them.

>>96755849 (OP)
Depends on the setting, since in many prominent ones like D&D, Warcraft, Pathfinder, etc, there are religions dedicated to ontologically good gods.
So I don't see the problem in the existence of settings and stories that have a more critical or grounded depiction of religion.

>>96757345
If you think the Crusades weren't justified you're a historically illiterate retard. Ever heard of the Battle of Tours, the Battle of Vienna, Al-Andalus, ever wonder how Christian Palestine came to be Muslim within 6 years of Muhammad's death and the entire historically Christian Holy Land was Muslim within 30 years of his death? They certainly didnt convert through Islamic Missionary work. Pick up a book and read and then give thanks to the Crusaders and the Reconquista that you don't speak Arabic.

>>96770929
I always wondered what they thought they meant by trilateralism.

Catholic imagery and aesthetics are beautiful and ominous and visually oppressive (like standing at the base of an enormous cathedral and looking up at it) with a sense of pageantry to them that lends itself really well to fantasy villains. I think at least some of that comes from Protestantism's rejection of beauty and art too. It's easier to make a huge ornate religious building evil than it is to make a McShed with plain white walls evil and Protestants have never seen the value in art that way, so they don't see the ways to make Catholic imagery Good. A lot of the time they can't even SEE Good in Catholic imagery. Fazzini's La Resurrezione is a good example of beautiful Catholic holy thematic imagery that a lot of Protestants can only see as evil.

>>96770971
The ominous white wooden building on an overcast day with desaturated colors feels like a pretty classic Evil set. Have the door slightly open and no visible lights inside and no good can be going on in there. Witches or demons are cutting people up in the basement 100%.

>>96756582
>Cardinal Richelieu
I never understood why people hated him. He was the only sensible guy in the book.

Hell, in later books D'Artagnan works directly for him.

>>96770983
Not entirely wrong tbf, but I think that's more of a modern horror aesthetic than a fantasy one. When you picture that scene, I'd wager you're imagining a world in which the M1911 exists, you know what I mean? It conjures up imagery that fits a vibe of 1970s rural Americana, rather than the imagery of medieval fantasy Europe, which is the dominant setting in TTRPGs.

>>96770971
I mean. Not to start a whole argument or nothing but I think that's kinda the point? That the Protestants argue that there is nothing Good in grand works when so many have so little. Is it not Evil to spend money on fantastical works when people die in the streets of hunger?

>>96755849 (OP)
It's the Jews' fault

>>96771291
The Catholic Church is the one that gives the most to charity of all the organizations.

>>96771461
There's a ridiculous amount of hypocrisy in spending your money on giant churches when people starve, and the Catholic Church is also one of the most charitable organisations in the world. Both things can be true at the same time.

>>96771533
You know that all these things don't get built by themselves right? That people are paid to do it, and it helps the community and economy and development of various arts, crafts, and professions?

>>96771533
Generally speaking "art shouldn't exist because there are poor people" is a losing argument, as is any variation of "everyone should be as miserable as the least of us all".

/tg/ - religious arguments

>>96770601
>admits it's literally just fags whining
Lmao

>>96755908
I dunno, the first time I encountered the corrupt church that's actually demon worship dressed up in the trappings of Christianity was in JRPGs.

>>96771009
Armand de Richelieu was a cat person, make of that what you will.

>>96762881
>"Guys, trust me, it's totally the Emperor's plan, he spoke to me in my dreams."
I don't know if spreading religion was the Emperor's goal, but back then he wasn't a militant atheist either. Imperial Cult was practiced beyond WB (members of EC we also mentioned as practitioners) and Lorgar was punished for dragging his feet, rather than spreading religion (2e Codex: CSM).

Is there a timeline where the church starts being bad vs good in fantasy settings?

>>96772129
I wouldn't really know how one would quantify that; many RPG settings have multiple gods with their own cults rather than one unified faith.

>>96772133
I mean as a trend it gained popularity later on in the existence of TTRPGs though right?

>>96771009
He colluded with foreign agents to undermine stability of his own nation.
I guess if you're American born this century you may be excused for thingking such behavior is "normal" and sensible, but for vast majority of recorded history it would be considered high treason, an offense worthy of death penalty.

>>96772186
What if that foreign nation is our closest ally and aircraft carrier?

>>96756108
Theres a litrpg series called "He who fights with monsters" where the protag gets pulled out of his wrld and sent to a magic world and the Gods of that worl are absolutely not distant. They actually show up in the town square at times. Its actually freaking hilarious because the guy is an atheist and is like..."well, that's atheism shot to hell. bloody gods" Worth reading or listening to

>>96772186
What?

1.the queen has a lover as an english first minister. And ties to the Spanish monarchy.


All fo his actions are agains Buckingham and the queen. Bothbof which are not alligned with the interest of the country.

2. I am not a yank

>>96772186
>I guess if you're American born this century you may be excused for thingking such behavior is "normal" and sensible
Ironic to call out Americans for this when yurops keep voting in people who only work to actively dismantle their nation at every level and jail any native citizen who points this out

>>96755849 (OP)
remember how big onternent atheism was in the 00's?

>>96756582
source plz

>>96755849 (OP)
I honestly don't really think I see that much in /tg/. It's mostly a JRPG/western TV thing for me. The closest thing I can think of is 40k (which has recently been making the ecclesarchy more sympathetic to move SB novels and shows) and Warmachine, which mostly just seemed to not care about it's theocracy.

Evil angels and monotheistic gods, on the other hand...

>>96772513
The Borgias

>>96772513
>It's mostly a JRPG
Ermmm DEBOONKED already, sweaty

>>96771009
I guess they mistake him for Cardinal Mazarin who got done dirty in the books

>>96755849 (OP)
>You ever wonder why there's so much 'church bad' stuff?
Because "churches" invariably end up being corrupt and self-serving institutions in real life, and that has been a western cultural trope since the start with Jesus vs the Pharisees. The good and honest believer vs. the evil church. Christian religious schisms spawning multiple churches and traditions calling each other evil, etc. until the Enlightement and everything after.

Modern fantasy and sci-fi come directly from that tradition via XXth century authors that either didn't care about religion (Moorcock, Howard, Lovecraft, Asimov, Heinlein, Herbert...) or despite being religious still didn't really push "church good" (Tolkien, Orson Scott Cart, the Dragonlance mormons and Sandy Petersen). Even when honest believers are part of the good guys, stablished religion is almost never a positive thing.

And "churches" in western countries have been anti-pulp culture since the start too. Pretty much all forms of entertainment that allowed people to escape the mind control of "churches" have been vilified and labeled as immoral or dangerous. But in the end, "churches" lost that battle in the 90s.

So now, post 2010s right wing shills try to rewrite history and pretend that the D&D satanic panic never happened, stuff like LOTR or Harry Potter wasn't labeled as a gateway to witchcraft and paganism, or that fucking 40k was originally not anti-religious.

tl;dr: "churches" have always been the enemy of nerds

>>96773027
Also, I'm still mad about my religious grandmother destroying the Heroquest I bought with my measly allowance when I was a kid because her church told her fantasy games were satanic.

>>96773027
>40k was originally not anti-religious.
Who says that?

>>96773050
Seeing how you turned out, maybe they were on to something

>>96771716
there's a scale between no art ever and giant cathedrals

>>96773067
scroll up for an example, there's shills in 40k threads peddling that it wasn't originally against religion until later GW authors in the 2010s.
Which is double retarded, because not only 40k was based in stuff like Dune or Nemesis the Warlock with strong anti religious themes like most sci-fi, but it actually became *less* hostile over the years. Faith in the God Emperor has been a "good" thing since the early HH novels going for the plot twist, and GW wanting to sell more Sisters of Battle (and not wanting backlash from americans, I guess).

>>96773105
Giant cathedrals didn't just benefit the church, retard. Massive projects created steady employment, often for literal generations as these buildings required multiple lifetimes to complete, much less maintain. And if you had the best cathedral in the region then you would get pilgrims traveling to pray at it, which generated revenue in the form of alms and purchasing supplies from local shopkeeps. The church wasn't a closed ecosystem that just hoovered up all commerce to the Vatican.

You're thinking of communism and the Central Party/Dear Leader.

>>96773196
>it wasn't originally against religion until later GW authors in the 2010s.
40k or the Emperor?

>>96773204
Do not bother commies do not understand long term benefits and people gainging from the good luck of others, in my country we have commies refusing to allow new construccion because "companies le bad" and only "government should build houses" as a result more than 500 families are without home for more than 4 years now because the commies do not want a company to build the public houses that a massive wild fire destroyed.
That is ignoring all the jobs the construccion alone would bring along with the future jobs it can create with 500 families.
Hell I was going to pay for the school supplies out of my pocket for the entire school for the entire duration of the construccion as a bonus and the fuckers still refused.
So now I simply took the money and started exporting. Fuck this retards.

>>96755849 (OP)
>an institution that positioned itself as a moral vertical of our society for more than a thousand years
>turns out they harbor the most taboo of sinners
>cultural reflex is to depict fictional clergies in a negative light because the IRL counterpart lost the trust of its flock
>"You ever wonder why there's so much 'church bad' stuff?"
I am always baffled every time somebody doesn't understand this.

>>96771291
You're sorry of proving my point. Protestants can't see value in art and beauty because they think it's antithetical to religion. They wouldn't give their car to a homeless man though. They wouldn't give their house to a homeless man. They don't give away the majority of their pay cheque to charity. Protestant work ethic was never a means to provide charity for others, always a means to better ones own life and make lots of money for oneself. It's just much less noticeable than a big cathedral. Your F150 is as much a symbol of decadence as any cathedral is, if not moreso because the cathedral at least exists for the community to use for centuries. The truck is yours for all of 20 years before it gets totalled or whatever.

>>96773447
t. Has never heard of Johannes Bach, Walter Scott or Rembrandt.

>>96757199
Oboro requires extensive correction.

>>96773760
I'm curious as to what kind of correction you're implying here

>>96773027
The only worthwhile post in this entire thread

>>96773067
Dunno if any lurk here but reddit's chuddy 40k board called horus galaxy will argue with purple faced indignation that the imperium is good actually and that the thesis of 40k is the power of the indomitable human spirit against overwhelming odds (and protecting very modern political allegories on the other factions).

>>96773928
I mean that is too what it is, and it CAN be interpreted as such, but that's absolutely not what it was intended to be.

>>96773953
>absolutely not what it was intended to be
Satire or social critic was never the intention if that's what you are implying. We have the original creator creators saying so.
It was simply making things that looked cool.

>>96773969
Ok, if you do have them, would you mind sharing that source because I wouldn't even know where to start looking?

>>96772281
He wanted to create casus belli first by exposing the queen's affair, then by straight up assassinating Buckingham, all while France was still busy sorting out its internal protestant infestation and nowhere near ready for (another) war with England.

>>96773821
Deep.

>>96773992
Old interviews like the ones made during 1998 to 2008 ish, there should be some in youtube.

>>96774121
>should
Look. This is the first I'm hearing that 40k was NOT intended to be social satire. I'm not digging through youtube for something that SHOULD be out there without any names or dates.

>>96773928
I'm not one of these retards, but it's a fact reinforced in the lore that the 40k Imperium, for all its faults and crimes, it's supposed to be the only way for Humanity to survive. The only way to have a bit of hope and normal human lives somewhere despite all the horror and not be devoured for eternity.
Of course, the Emperor ensured that on purpose by destroying any other possible alternative, but it is what it is.
>>96773969
>>96774121
>muh original creators
not this irrelevant and twisted bs again. Imagine looking at stuff like pic related and saying "Satire or social critic was never the intention", ffs

GW quicky became a corporation with ads showing the White dwarf shaking hands with Ronald Reagan, but the roots of 40k in stuff like 2000AD Nemesis the Warlock or Dune were more than "things that looked cool."

>>96773716
Exceptions are not the rule.

>>96774152
You don't know much about Protestantism now do you?

>>96774132
>White dwarf shaking hands with Ronald Reagan
>discussing with the left is pointless, their entire argument is pretending they do not understand
Remember that image comes with the article regarding production and storage in the US during Reagan.
>post something cool as shit
>see guys totally satire!
It's all so tiresome

>>96755849 (OP)
>Retard OP can't even name one(1) good church
Poor retarded faggot OP

>>96757521
What do you think the "j" in "jrpg" stands for?
>captcha J4P4J
FFS

>>96773760
>>96773821
>>96774055
There need to be more games in the vein of Kangoku Senkan and Taimanin where the brainwashees actually deserve it. KS3 came the closest, with the Martian women, but that's about it as far as I can remember.

Corrupting innocent women makes me feel bad!

>>96774187
Cranach literally began his career painting in the Catholic tradition, you imbecile kek. He also painted explicitly about the Protestant vs Catholic ethos of beauty and extravagance (making a particular point of addressing cathedrals as being evil for being showy), calling the Catholic way Antichrist. He may have been the single worst pick you could've picked to demonstrate that Protestants value art on the level that Catholics do lol.

He also got lots of his influence from the Italians.

>>96774281
And you're gonna keep coping about protestants not having arts while the Dutch masters alone disprove your point.

>>96774354
I never said that Protestants don't have arts. Are you illiterate?

>>96774370
No, you said that protestants can't see value in art, which itself is retarded. Bach composed the Matthäus-Passion, Luther himself also composed. Or are you arguing that music isnt real art?

>>96774403
I said they "can't see the value of art in that way" and I'm right. You thankfully proved it with your perfect example of Cranach. You can go through his works and see him losing that value of beauty in the ostentatious and shift towards depicting simplicity as a value in and of itself to be admired as beauty. It's the subject of many of his Lutheran works. It is not a controversial statement to say that Protestants don't value the extravagance of worship in the same way that Catholics do. It's one of the core things that differentiates the sects.

>>96773204
what if those projects were about urban beautification in general, building homes, improving sanitation. something actually useful.

>>96773928
>reddit
So nobody.

>>96775165
Who would you consider "somebody?"

>>96775297
Real people in real life, not bots on the internet.

>>96775062
>what if those projects were about urban beautification in general
Yeah man, they should've started with, like, a city community
You know, a building where the entire community gathers
Something that everyone in the town, no matter how rich or poor, will see the inside of and make use of
Something that the whole community can take collective pride
Even better if it's something that really puts the town on THA MAP and drives tourism too!

You're an idiot, in case you haven't figured it out. A grand cathedral WAS urban beautification in the era they were being built, retard. Nations were made importing infinity bomalians to live in rat trap rental cubes, so they didn't need to build 400 new homes and a complex sanitation system yearly for a village of ~300. Instead they had the time, funds, and generally high QoL relative to the era to invest in public beautification works. Like fucking big ass cathedrals you dense fuck.
>something actually useful.
Reread my last post, retard.

>>96774033
That is ... a good point.
But you will agree that starting a war does not make him a traitor. Someone stupid maybe, but not a traitor.