Thread 96851066

I can't believe I wrote that because I'm not a fan of retcons, BUT I'm pretty tired of having to suffer the OMNIPRESENT daddy issues of the Primarchs every time I found a new piece of lore.
This low-IQ / low-T drama is just found in the worst realms of Wattpad.

Can you, GW, make the Traitors actual demigods that want implement their own visions of the perfect Imperium and not kids / women in grown men bodies?
Please, I beg you.

PD: Yes, Magnus did many things wrong.

You missed the general.

>Everything is canon, but not all of it is true
just disregard it instead of having a meltdown about a backstory for toys

>>96851107
Well, I'm the 40k enjoyer that likes the books, games rather than the tabletop game.

I just need to rant little, nothing more.

>>96851152
>40k enjoyer that likes the books, games rather than the tabletop game
You're a secondary and even GW doesn't give a fuck about those. Fuck off back to /v/

Angron didn't give a fuck about not being loved by the Emperor. He hated the Emperor because the Emperor let everyone he ever loved die for no reason and then told him to serve or die as well.

>>96851177
>/v/
Wouldn't it be /lit/?

>>96851198
I think you'd be shot for trying to talk about something of BL slop quality on /lit/ but sure, he can fuck off there as well.

>>96851194
>Emperor let die psychos
>didn't nothing wrong

>Emperor reclaims his son to fight or die
>his son kneels
>his son still acts like a bitch 10k years later

Yeah, Thy Emperor did nothing wrong. Angron was a drama-whore.

>>96851066 (OP)
That stuff is all retcons. The HH BL series is one giant retcon and should just be ignored

>>96851207
BL has some good books like 'Fulgrim' and 'Ghosts of Tanith'. Not all is slop.

>>96851207
you have no idea how bad genre fiction can get if you think BL's at worst mediocre catalog is anywhere near the bottom lol

>>96851219
>That stuff is all retcons. The HH BL series is one giant retcon
Really? How it was originally?

>>96851226
>you have no idea how bad genre fiction can get
Can you give me an idea? I'm genuinely curious.

>>96851212
What did Angron get out of the Imperium? Nothing. His life was an unending torment thanks to the Butcher's Nails and the only thing he cared about (his friends) are now dead because the Emperor didn't press one more button.
The Emperor then goes and forces him to be his soldier at gunpoint and gives him nothing to even relieve his pain. He has nothing to offer Angron and has only made him do things he hates to do, so why should Angron have the slightest bit of loyalty to him?

>>96851229
It isn't, a lot of the HH BL books are an expansion on what was stated about the HH in Index Astartes articles and the Visions of Heresy art books (made after and using art from the Horus Heresy Card Game).
All the books really did was give the characters dialogue and internal thoughts and shit.

>>96851066 (OP)
GW won't fix anything. Even if they wanted to their "fix" would be as bad or worse than it already is.

>>96851066 (OP)
Kill the whole setting and start something new based on the same principles of shamelessly ripping off whatever's cool, and running it through some insanely talented auteur artists.

>>96851238
>Go to local library
>Ask librarian for the "Mills and Boons" section
>Wallow in an ocean of trashy romance fiction you never suspected existed

Or just check out the top ten Amazon best sellers.

>Morning Glory Milking Farm

Female Coomers need to be spayed.

>>96851241
>What did Angron get out of the Imperium?
A better Galaxy.

>gives him nothing to even relieve his pain. He has nothing to offer Angron and has only made him do things he hates to do
Zeus-Basileus forbid Angron use his brain (what is left) to call the best neurosurgeon in the entire Imperium to remove the nails instead of implement them in his entire legion, ruining it forever.

>>96851262
Cool cool. Thanks, anon.

>>96851066 (OP)
>I'm pretty tired of having to suffer the OMNIPRESENT daddy issues of the Primarchs every time I found a new piece of lore.
>Please, I beg you, make my space daddies actual demigods that are even more omnipresent in every piece of lore!

>>96851289
Guys are reading isekai about being resurrected with the strongest powers and a harem of non-blood related sisters, women are reading books about being abducted by a sexy billionaire pirate vampire, all's right with the world.

>>96851289
Watching the fiction publishing industry degenerate into being porn for women as certainly been a sight to see. A bookstore near me has a "dark romance" section that almost always is half cleared out and has a 50~60 women browsing the books left there.

>>96851262
Then why did they need to rewrite Collected Visions in the Visions of Heresy release to be in line with all the BL novels if it already was?

>>96851358
>Guys are reading
lol

I still don't get the wet leopard thing

>>96851289
>Kill the whole setting and start something new
HH was Horus' fever dream because a bio-weapon created by a highly advanced xenos civilization.
He wakes up, all still the same, the Great Crusade keep is course. Monarchia still exists, Lorgar relaxed in his religiousity, Erebus and Kor Phaeron are true bros.
"Chaos? Chaos Gods? Lord Horus, your dreams were truly wild, take your time to recover."

The grimdark part are the dark elves, necrons, tyranids and the thing that scare the tyranids.
Orks still a cool as always.
Elves still annoying af.
Tau never emerge because Angron and his bros from Nuceria, now SM, finished them before they evolved.

Imagine, a better 40k, a BROlesome Imperium.

>>96851066 (OP)
The only true way to enjoy 40k ever. In all other ways there lies madness.

>>96851373
I don't consider light novels to be reading either, but they sure are buying them.

>>96851289
>>Wallow in an ocean of trashy romance fiction you never suspected existed
>>Morning Glory Milking Farm
Understood anon, same shit happens in movies and shows, streamings are full of them, every new release in cinema is some female-centered (aka retarded) drama, romance, thriller, etc. Nothing for male audience.

>>96851385
>KEK
OP here, thanks for the meme, anon, I need it. But is sad all the wasted potential of some many franchises and cool concepts that got forgotten because current societal whatevers.

>>96851066 (OP)
It doesn't need a retcon, it needs a rollback to before the black library started to spew out fanfiction that ruined the setting.

>>96851457
Check >>96851378

What are you talking about? It's not canon to begin with. It's just some silly what-if story they let fester too long because for some reason nerds will actually buy 50+ books of cheap genre fiction in a row.

>>96851498
>It's just some silly what-if story they let fester too long because for some reason nerds will actually buy 50+ books of cheap genre fiction in a row.
Anon, for everyone else that is exactly the definition of 'canon'.

>>96851262
>>96851365
>>96851457
HH was or was not a retcon? Or 50/50?

>>96851293
>A better Galaxy.
yeah tell that to Luceria, which was still being ruled by the slavers.

>>96851875
It's not a retcon, it is just pure noncanon fanfiction and should never be referenced.

>>96851293
>Zeus-Basileus forbid Angron use his brain (what is left) to call the best neurosurgeon in the entire Imperium to remove the nails instead of implement them in his entire legion, ruining it forever.
He couldn't do that, retard. The Emperor literally refused to try and remove them.

>>96851913
he does take him to terra with his best surgeons but they say no bueno, any removal would equal death and it was implied that he could grow him a new body in a vat but there was simply not enough time (and likely wanted some predictable factors in who will inevitably betray him)

>>96851907
Skill issues.

>>96851945
>son just have to wait for new painless body
>ruin it all because his a bitch
>now is condemn to be forever angry
Angron has to be one of the most retarded Primarchs. I despise how many phags have sympathy for him.

>>96851198
>daring to call BL slop /lit/
Anon, they'll skin you alive and quote Kafka at you for that.

>>96851066 (OP)
>Why can't my traitorous brothers just settle for doing their duty?

>>96851066 (OP)
you are retarded
not for thinking the primarchs are retards
for using the phrase "low-T"
for the love of humanity remove yourself from the gene pool so that better men dont have to waste better spent time in dealing with you
or god forbid
your degenerate mutant spawn

>>96854048
stop doing the dooty poopfucker

>>96851262
...and retcon a bunch of stuff. I don't know how you can seriously claim they didn't retcon anything when we literally went from
>Ferrus and Vulkan both disappeared in the maelstrom of battle at the Dropsight Massacre and their sons believe they will one day return
to
>Ferrus absolutely 100% no takie-backsies DIED via DECAPITATION by Fulgrim in full view of countless warriors from both sides and everyone in the IH knows he's dead and now think he's a retard, and Vulkan is an immortal who CANNOT die even if you drop him into a planetary atmosphere from orbit in the nuddy and eventually everyone knows that too

And that's just one of a hundred changes they made.

>>96851909
I disagree. In my headcanon the BL novels exist in-setting as trashy penny dreadful stories on a shitty hive world. Eventually the Inquisition finds out about them and burns everyone involved alive.

>>96851177
Wrong. GW is currently pivoting hard towards video games, animation, and literally anything other than the tabletop game because 3D printing is about to kill their entire business model.

>>96851066 (OP)
>anon discovers 40k lore is shit

It can't be salvaged fella, it's an extremely dumb setting. It was never intended to be anything more than a placeholder to make nerds spend $50+ dollars on 0.002¢ worth of plastic.

>>96851066 (OP)
>doesn't like retcons
>likes 40k
Anon Warhammer Stratigraphy is retcons all the way down of which only the latest edition is king until it too gets replaced with secondary and tertiary material being just that until they appear/are referenced in the primary game.

>>96851226
If you compare marvel slop to amateur porn that has been recorded with a shaky smart phone camera it's still not peak cinema.

>>96851220
Fulgrim was not good

>>96855558
Resin models suck. Too brittle, print lines, etc. The average person spergs over mold lines, you think that print lines won't have the same effect, but worse because they can't be smoothed?

>>96855963
>3d prints
>mold likes
Are you tarded?

>>96856193
ESL? I said that the print lines that come with 3d printing are even worse than mold lines.

>>96851913
He did not "refuse" without reason. He examined him, in depth, had no idea what the tech was and could only see the effects, and concluded that he could not extract them without killing the patient.

>>96851066 (OP)
i didn't want to respond but after reading the absolute retardation from some people online. how can you call people who do not like femstodes a chud? they are new lore, of course i don't like them all the recent lore changes over 10th edition into the end of 9th have been lazy AF. not to mention the terminus decree or changing the emeperors my space marine speech. i missed it when the hobby wasn;t controlled by low iq ape normies who think nightlords are edgy and slaneesh was gender neutral flag slop.

>>96851241
Angron is a huge bitch. Dropsite Massacre has him complain that there are never any choices, then Horus tells him that choices are something you TAKE before beating his ass.

>>96855963
>print lines
Big problem from five years ago. AI is also doomed because it can't do hands.

>>96851545
It's not canon just because it exists, it's canon if it's actually a serious addition to the setting. They churn out a billion shitty BL books a year. It's just fluff.

>>96851066 (OP)
GW just needs to officially disown BL as untrue, and that settles most of the problems.
But since GW is already basing most of their game on BL, that isn't happening.

>>96851066 (OP)
I believe Horus Heresy was the opportunity to actually rectify and change some things, but instead entirety of 30k feels beholden to some throwaway lines. Shame.

>>96851359
It would be hypocritical of me to complain about women getting off to self-insert monsterfucker literature, but distorting the legitimate fiction publishing industry around their porn in the process instead of keeping it to dodgy internet fiction sites like the rest of us is absolute fucking bullshit of the highest order.

The biggest problem I have is that the Black Library books as a whole think that parent-child relationships are about "well you donated genetic material this one time" rather than, you know, parenting. So you have a constant spew of
>I looked up to my gene sire for no reason other than that I was brainwashed to do so
>but then it turned out my gene sire didn't love all 10000 of us equally because there's 10000 of us! that's so unfair! he's a bad gene sire!
It's not just cheap drama, it makes no sense.

>>96851194

I do like the moments of clarity Angron has during Betrayer where he talks about the Emperor being a slaver and a tyrant. Implying his Spartacus mentality would have made him rebel faster without the nails.

Also in the Kharn novel where Dreagher (One of the high ranking pre-Angron War Hounds Captains) points out the fall of the 12th is like 75% the emperor's fault because he put a brain damaged maniac in charge of a space marine legion. Saying he provided them with a defective lemon of a primarch and damned them all.

>>96851194
>mfw Emperor should've just teleported down for a back-to-back with Angron against the slavers and he would've had his loyalty for LYFE

>>96851194
It's weird how the Emperor acts wildly out of character for no reason just to set up certain Primarchs for Loyalty/Betrayal.
>Angron
>"Your gladiator army? Worthless to my plans of galactic conquest, here let me traumatize you for life"
>Lion
>"Your army of knights? Perfect for my main strike team! Wow I'm so glad I didn't teleport you away from some important battle or something."

>>96857153
because what >>96856757 said is correct. rather than coming up with really good reasons why certain events/characters turned out the way they did, events in 30k had their arm tied behind the back by everything in 40k informing them. not to mention it's been 10 000 fucking years. maybe not everything happened as people remembered it?

>>96855558
GW does not produce video games at all and consequently cannot "pivot" to that. Also they describe everything other than models, print materials and hobby products as "non-core" parts of their business in their investor reports.

Video games related revenue is "licenses and royalties" and on a good year it constitutes about 20% of their revenue, and because they don't actually make the things that generate that revenue they have no control of it. The overwhelming majority of their business is trade (sales of physical products to retailers) followed by direct sales to customers. Everything else is a sideshow.

>>96857345
GW is very heavily involved with vetting the games using their licenses, though. Supposedly way more than your usual license owners. I know Warhammer Online devs basically had to bend over to some sort of compromise so they could implement a healer class for one of the factions.

>>96857101
>he talks about the Emperor being a slaver and a tyrant.
Angron was a retard, Idc how many times GW tries to make me sympathies with him.
The Emperor knew humans are retarded hairless monkeys and to triumph, authority and sacrifices are necessary.
I actually wish The Emperor let Angron to his won, just to see him losing everything in the hands of Necrons, Tyranids, Chaos, Orks, etc. And see The Emperor saying: "I TOLD YOU."

What would’ve happened if a primarch straight up refused the great crusade?

>>96857120
>A few hours for a battle? I can't spare that, there a Galaxy to crusade through!
>Yes I can beat Russ in a 3 day drinking contest no problem

>>96857120
Fun fact: The Emperor did exactly that with Mortarion, he tried to support him and helped him. In the end he had to directly act because if not Mortarion would have died.
And yet, Mortarion hated him for helping him and betrayed him anyway.

>>96857630
They get ++REDACTED++

>>96851359
>50-60 women
How fucking massive is this bookstore? I doubt you could fit 50 people into most of the ones I go to.

>>96851374
It's a fetish.

>>96856757
>>96857153
>>96857156
>>96857632
I find funny how people forget that Thy Emperor allowed Konrad to keep his psychobros with him in the Legion and we all saw what happened next. I doubt he wanted to repeat that mistake with Angron's psychobros.

>>96857634
Problem with Mortarion is that no writer wanted to give him a more thorough book. So he remain under developed.
But it could be argued that Mortarion would acctualy kill the BigBad on Barbarus if he had gottem more time.
Emps by appearing and saying all that shit caused Mortarion into "I'll show him mood" which caused this whole Cascade. Also wonder why Morty never just made Typhus taste Silence because he constantly undermines him.

>>96857678
>picrel
>Erda, the Imperium's Pandora
>KILL ERDA, ALL MY HOMIES HATE ERDA

>BigBad
After all this years and we still don't know the species of his cunt.
I wonder what was his last chat with The Emperor before his end.

>>96857701
>After all this years and we still don't know the species of his cunt.
I think it's Intentional. Maybe it was Thorouly mutated Human so removed that it's bassicaly a diffenr species, maybe an alien, Maybe a fucking Nurgle Demon prince. Who knows. Well Mortarion Knows because he trapped his soul in a clock.

The traitor primarchs are at fault for their choices but a schism was pretty much inevitable because of E being just another charismatic warlord writ large. Everything fell apart basically as soon as he stopped personally overseeing it.

>>96857733
>Nurgle Demon prince.
>Alien
>somehow felt the urge to raise as his son a human demigod
Hmm...

>>96857778
So basically HH in the first editions, when was SM vs SM without Chaos. If only...
I have Chaos-fatigue and a little Ultramarine's too.

>>96851066 (OP)
wtf bros I believed the propaganda that these were all living gods and the reality fell short of what I was sold

this never happens in real life

>>96857948
??

>>96857380
GW is, and always has been very, very strict about how their IP is presented in licensed products, its the reason why there werent very many warhammer games at all for a ling time until Kevin rountree took over. It very likely stretches back to Ian Livingstone, who is absolutely adamant about the importance of owning and protecting intellectual property.

>>96857380
GW describe their exact behavior in their own words.

>>96859697
WotC would never.

>>96851359
>I'm gonna shift into the barracks slut!
Accurate depiction of female soldier.

>>96857672
I feel like there's a middle ground between letting them be slaughtered to the last man and turning them into super soldiers. Just save them, but don't recruit them into a marine legion.

>>96851219
Preach. The setting was more fun before the autists documented the HH in excruciatingly overblown detail.

The problem is that any retcon will be planned between Gav Thorpe and Adam Dembski-Bowden and be full of gendertrendery, homosexuality, faggotry, troonism, and other disgusting cultural-Marxist shitlibbery.

>>96858533
>very likely stretches back to Ian Livingstone, who is absolutely adamant about the importance of owning and protecting intellectual property.

…even though 90% of James Wokeslop’s IP is blatantly stolen from other creatives like Tolkien, Vance, Moorcock, Heinlein etc., oh the irony.

>>96851066 (OP)
Just wait until someone in GW decide that they should make an 'war in heaven" series

>>96861533
You'll never find anyone more paranoid about home security than a burglar.

>>96857120

To steelman GW's writing it is mentioned that Nuceria had already surrendered and accepted compliance by the time Angron was discovered so there was the political aspect that he couldn't just attack a compliant world to satisfy Angron.

Kharn in one of the short stories also mentions that after being reunited with Angron and before the nails the World Eaters leadership offered "Fuck Gulliman lets go to Ultramar and burn Nuceria to the ground" but Angron declined just wanting to move on but obviously the resentment festered over centuries and with Lorgar whispering in his ear they eventually did go back and put every high rider city to the chainaxe.

>>96851066 (OP)
Angron saw the Emperor as yet another tyrant to overthrow. He sought freedom from enslavement. When the FUCK did he say a word about needing or wanting a daddy?

>retcon

lmao the lore and plot doesnt matter anon, its just set dressing for the games and miniatures, and will be changed accordingly if need be. If tomorrow GW woke up thinking making the orks pink would sell more miniatures, they would do it

>>96851152
SECOND DAIRY. BEGONE!!

if you read the horus heresy in its entirety and dont come away thinking the traitors were right you are a simpleton
not because chaos is the answer to humanities struggles but because the emperor is a tyrant who would use his human capitol to achieve his apotheosis
this idea of a benevolent mastermind is the greatest form of propaganda in the verse
the false emperor got everything that was coming to him
look at any of the traitor legions and tell me they weren't setup from the outset of the great crusade to want to burn it all down besides the alpha legion and luna wolves

>>96855558
They sold more minis last year than any year prior.

>>96858533
>90s Blizzard
>passionate and trustful game company
>wants to do a strategy game for Warhammer Fantasy
>GW refuses it becuase they were retards
>GW lost quadrillions by not alowing what became one of the best RTS / MMORPG franchises, today known as World of Warcraft

>2025
>GW gives its IP to every slopware dev that ask for it
>1 good game for every 50 slops


How can GW keep losing so hard and nor learn the lesson after all this years?

>>96864539
They had little faith in video games. There WERE some for both 40k and Fantasy so you have to wonder what happened there. Trying to catch up?

>>96863717
Stop posting Abby, before Creed tactical geniuses a Demolisher behind your therapist again.

>>96861480
They wouldn't have a real purpose after being saved and the Nails would see them quickly fall into being cannibalistic murder hobos. Also, Angron wasn't going to back down from killing his planets rulers, so getting his trust would mean fucking up a perfectly functional planetary society that was already ok with Imperial rule.

>>96851066 (OP)
Because they needed to write reasons for them to rebel and the reasons given are more exciting than for example

>The Emperor has levied a progressive tax system on the nobles!
>but I Horus believe that a flat tax system would be more fair and equitable!
>We must rebel against this grave injustice!

Like can you see how that sort of realistic political intrigue is sort of boring and nonsensical?

Space Marines as a whole have been gravely mishandled.
They are super human, emotionless, heavily indoctrinated special forces yet they behave like bratty teenagers most of the time. I've seen 17 year old boys capable of more stoicism than the average space marine.

Funnily enough, the best appearances of marines are always in stories where they're not the main focus. Like when in Gaunt's ghosts they meet a Space Marine for the first time they're this unknowable, quasi demi-god entity. THIS is what they're supposed to be in the lore too but as soon as they feature in stories they turn into emotinoal drama queens and behave like a bunch of 20-something boys on their first military mission - marvel quips and all.

>>96851066 (OP)
>retcon needed for BLslop
>when BLslop isn't canon
Retard alert! Retard alert!

>>96864921
>>when BLslop isn't canon
It is. Talk about stones and glasshouses.

>>96857652
I meant 50-60 year old women. My mistake sorry.

>>96851241
based angron poster

>>96864613
But as human murderers they wouldn't have the ability to fuck up a whole legion, which is the concern that anon raised. Essentially creating a couple dozen serial killers, as a worst case, is such a miniscule consequence in the scope of 30k that it doesn't matter.
Letting Angron kill the rulers wouldn't disrupt the whole society, or rather if the death of the current leaders would destroy the society then it wouldn't be worth keeping anyways. Leaders die all the time, only dictatorships are truly disrupted by it.

>>96851358
Ive read light and webnovels for a decade now but I never considered them as real books except for a few outliers. These wish fulfilment novels are like cheap fast food. Do women have the same self-awareness with the shitty novels they read?

>>96851066 (OP)
Whatever they retcon it into, I'm still 3D printing everything.

>>96851066 (OP)
Horus Heresy is slop anyway, should never have been explained in detail, it was better as a slurry of myths and half-truths.

That said, it takes an extremely childlike worldview to prefer the version of a story where le based demigods are above human motivations. The emperor's plan failed because he continually fails to recognize that humans are human.

>>96851066 (OP)
>it needs a retcon
No, GW just needs to stop writting content that furthers the story, they just need to add additonal stuff and side stories.
All these issues with 40k and HH stemed from GW treating 40k like a narrative, not a setting.

If you look back, the most popular and well remembered events, stories, and things in 40k did not further the 40k setting, it was just shit that happened in 40k, badab and Armageddon come to mind.

>>96864613
He had at most 21 primarchs, and must have been conquering new planets every day. He was also not particularly bothered about betraying the Thunder Warriors or killing shitloads of people, like that world he flattened because Lorgar was building cathedrals.
Primarchs were far more valuable than worlds, never mind mere leaders of worlds. Even if they hadn't been total shitbags, which these clearly were.

>>96851220
Best BL has to offer is "alright lite reading". Which is fine for what it is, desu.
/lit/, however, has the biggest stick up its ass out of all board.

>>96851066 (OP)
> I'm pretty tired of having to suffer the OMNIPRESENT daddy issues of the Primarchs every time I found a new piece of lore.
That's because you're a tourist parroting memelore from social media, not the actual source material

>>96857153
Angron failed and almost lost, why would emperor bother with saving losers's army.
>>96851066 (OP)
You forget the fact that super humans like primarchs won't fall for such loser thing like chaos without having massive issues, and tyrant daddy is issue that is pretty hard to get over of

>>96864539
>rogue trader
>mechanicus
>total war warhammmer
>vermintide
>dawn of war
>space marine
>necromunda

i feel like you're nogaems

>>96864902
This. Most of the HH books and other Marine books have been written by excitable fanboys and nu-lennial social media glycenial maxes and are basically dark romantasy with boltguns instead of sparkly vampires and jacking off demihumans.

>>96864902
>>96867750
>>96867455
>>96866225
>They are super human, emotionless, heavily indoctrinated special forces yet they behave like bratty teenagers most of the time.
Same shit happened with clones in Star Wars, just compare Clone Wars 2003 vs 2008.
It's the obnoxious obsessive need to apoeal to the faggy / female audience.
That's why all cool things are turning into "muh feelings" drama bs.

>>96864876
>virgin Horus needs cool excuse (Chaos) to betray his father
>CHAD Horus want to show his father he would be a better Emperor, The Emperor is proud of Horus' ambition

The classic "because I'm better than you" is so simple that never fails.

>>96861717
In proper hands could be the best kino ever.

>>96863648
NUCERIA DELENDA EST.
AVE IMPERATOR.
IMPERATOR VULT.

>>96851066 (OP)
>retcon
me, I'm waiting until busy bees make Emp gender fluid as his rotten dick fall off, Battle Sister including Battle Brothers, SMs growing tits etc

>>96864902
Because Astartes are literally indoctrinated child soldiers, not grown men. Sometimes people miss the point and write them as hyperchads who are just better than normal humans in every way, but they (and Custodes) have always lacked something critical to human development and that's by the Emperor's design. His perfect Imperium was never being built for gay shit-eating Astartes homos or even gayer golden Custodes.

>>96861717
not until they can punt Guilliman and the Ultramarines back in time to be the human stand-in for it

>>96851066 (OP)
>what anon thinks the Traitor reasoning is
>YOU SUCK DADDY
What the Traitor reasons for turning actually are:
Angron
>The Emperor is a tyrant even worse than the lords of Nuceria, who yokes all of humanity in chains and proclaims himself savior. I will strike him down for his crimes, and then I'll join him in death.
Magnus
>The Emperor would leave humanity blind and powerless by denying it the future, its own evolutionary birthright to rule over the Warp and cast down the gods themselves. I will save humanity from the Emperor's cruelty and liberate psykers to claim their rightful place as the next step in human evolution.
Lorgar
>The Emperor is a liar beyond liars. He says he isn't a god (he's the Dark King). He says there are no gods (Chaos Gods in general). Humanity is being tortured in a faithless existence that lacks all meaning and purpose because of the Emperor's fedora-tipping pseudointellectual stupidity.

>>96851194
The nails bit and Angron murdered his own army in a fit of berserk rage. He blames the Emperor because the alternative is to blame himself.

>>96868759
Angron is literally the only traitor not blind to reality. He has no delusions at any point. He didn't hallucinate, there is no twist to his backstory. He wanted to die honorably with his comrades and the Emperor took that chance away from him. So Angron became an honorless dog like the Emperor wanted.

The worst part for me is that every single primarchs origin is just a slightly different version of Superman/Tarzan. Even the emperor's origin is similar.

>>96868080
I think the prequel trilogy in general led to a downpouring of shitty prequels to established franchises

>>96867445
>No no, you don't get it, we made them retarded deliberately, because a smart demigod would have told us that our plan was dumb and we shouldn't do it.

>>96869711
Yes. Because everyone with two brain cells to rub together could see the Emperor's plan sucked donkey dicks.

>>96851066 (OP)
If you were to change/retcon three story elements from the 12 "War of the beast" novels to improve that "Korean War" era after the entombment of the Emprah and loss of most of yhe primarchs... what would you change?

I like the lore and era but the books were rushed and clunky.

>>96861521
Yeah. Every secondary non primary character that can talk shit to the primarchs is a woman now. Women are somehow immune to the unnatural gravitas of a ten foot tall Adonis according to those retards.

>>96868563
>Because Astartes are literally indoctrinated child soldiers, not grown men.
Bullshit. Most of them, especially CSM are hundreds of years old and the intense training, genetic modification and indoctrination shaves away most of their humanity. Maybe some faglord authors just write them as little kids in power armor but everything in the lore suggests that they should be silent, efficient, stoic, fearless, focused and cold.

>you can't have disagreements with your father that permanently strain your relationship..... BECAUSE YOU JUST CAN'T, OKAY?!?!!?
Unironically a semitic mentality.

>>96870709
Also pic related.

>>96868638
>3 faggots saying the most retarded faggy bullshit ever and been proving wrong for 10 millennia
KEK.
Also, AVE IMPERATOR.

>>96863648
>>96868638
>NOOO le Chud-Emperor le spacr tyrant
>check actual state of Traitor Primarchs
>ass / soul graped for 10k years by their gods
>half of Traitor Primarchs regret betraying Thy Emperor
>the other half regret siding with Chaos (even Chaos-cuck Lorgar hates how Erebus and Kor Phaeron are the ones running all and not him, at least the most recent books)
I swear, Th'Emperor doesn't returns because he has been KEKing for those 10k years.

>>96863648
>>96868638
>NOOO le Chud-Emperor le space tyrant (life if Traitor Primarchs were not actual evil tyrants themselves)
>check actual state of Traitor Primarchs
>ass / soul graped for 10k years by their gods
>half of Traitor Primarchs regret betraying Thy Emperor
>the other half regret siding with Chaos (in the newest books even Chaos-cuck Lorgar hates how Erebus and Kor Phaeron are the ones running all and not him; "where muh mankind illumination / evolution by Chaos" - Lorgar said while trying to not cry)
I swear, Th'Emperor doesn't returns because he has been KEKing for those 10k years.

PD: I wonder how Lorgar will react after The Emperor returns from the uncorrupted part of the Immaterium and see how perfect The Emperor and that part are, while seeing how bad is his part of the Immaterium and how far he has fallen.

>>96870709
>>96870714
>tell me you don't know shit about the Omnipotence of the Indo-European figure of the Pater Familias without telling me that (the Pater could kill his sons in horrible ways to restore authority and honor the familia and gens (tribe))

PD: cool with your anti-semitic Bronze Age and anti-Saturnian remarks.

>>96857619
The Emperor himself was just a another retarded hairless monkey who didn’t know what he was doing and wasn’t prepared to make sacrifices for the greater good

>>96851066 (OP)
Get over it, you are the drama queen incapable of leave GW shit.

>>96871080
>t. heretic hands? wrote this retarded post

>>96871130
Zeus-Basileus forbid anon wants good grimdark stories and not retarded drama.

>>96871059
>PD:
>>96871071
>PD:

Oh hell no, what type of new meme is this now?

>>96851066 (OP)
This is retarded bait by an ESL but fuck it im bored.

>Magnus
Nothing to do with daddy issues, his fall to chaos rests solely on circumstance, hubris, and his own sense of duty
>Erebus
Hes just catholic
>Angron
Also not daddy issues, his conflict from the emperor isnt personal but ideological.

>>96871636
Read >>96871059

>>96871708
>n-no you dont understand le tyranny is good because the weak cant do shit
>anyways why did they beat the emperor until he was a vegetable on life support? so unfair!
K

>>96851212
Educate yourself on butchers nails who was raping Angrons mind

>>96871636
Erebus was a rabbi, jewish priests abuse more children and suck the blood of the penis after mutilating the foreskin on baby boys.

>>96851066 (OP)
The Emperor is a lesson in the dangers of being an atheist

>>96871071
>>tell me you don't know shit about the Omnipotence of the Indo-European figure of the Pater Familias without telling me that (the Pater could kill his sons in horrible ways to restore authority and honor the familia and gens (tribe))
I know infinitely more about the Ptolemaic way of thinking than you do, and there is quite literally nothing more emblematic of the eternal recurrence than theogony itself. Only semites have a problem with noble figures like Lucifer disobeying sky daddy, similar to Imperium fans crying about the Primarchs exerting their own wills.
>PD: cool with your anti-semitic Bronze Age and anti-Saturnian remarks.
I'm willing to acknowledge Freud insofar he touched on something important with the Oedipal complex, only he was too much of a pussy to go all the way with his theory of seduction.

>>96872381
>the Primarchs exerting their own wills
By submitting to chaos instead?

>>96870596
>Bullshit.
Lorelet doesn't know Astartes are selected at childhood, puberty is halted by their gene implants, and their mind never matures after their psycho-conditioning that specifically turns their minds into hardened concrete, with no room for new ideas like Chaos uses to corrupt them.
>Maybe some faglord authors just write them as little kids in power armor
Astartes aren't your power fantasy, you leaky-ass underage faggot. They're mind-raped children who are symbolically raped by the Empreror's gene-seed, who are constantly fed their own feces by their suits, who lash out in violence at everything around them because it's all they know.

>>96871059
>>96871011
the retardation is terminal I fear

>>96851066 (OP)
>low-T

You deserve everything that is happening to the franchise, mr. horoscope for guys man.

>>96851177
GW makes money off of their paints, not their minis, moron. Paints are brand-agnostic.

>>96872381
>>96872788
>By submitting to chaos instead?
This.
As I wrote in OP,
> GW, make the Traitors actual demigods that want implement their own visions of the perfect Imperium and not kids / women in grown men bodies
I have no problem with rebellious Primarchs, but don't make them Chaos-cucks.

Everytime I found an interesting renegate SM or SM chapter / Imperial Guard division, in the end falls to Chaos because banana.
Same shit with Star Wars, you find an interesting Force-user that thinks Jedi are retards and 5 seconds later is now a Sith.

It's pretty lame and lazy.

>>96872381
>>96872788
>By submitting to chaos instead?
This.
As I wrote in OP,
>GW, make the Traitors actual demigods that want implement their own visions of the perfect Imperium and not kids / women in grown men bodies
I have no problem with rebellious Primarchs, but don't make them Chaos-cucks.

Everytime I found an interesting renegate SM or SM chapter / Imperial Guard division, in the end falls to Chaos because banana.
Same shit with Star Wars, you find an interesting Force-user that thinks Jedi are retards and 5 seconds later is now a Sith.

It's pretty lame and lazy.

>>96872012
>implying that being a theist for hellish gods (aka, simp-cuck) is better
>anon proves again how retarded he really is

>>96872012
>implying that being a Theist for hellish gods (aka, simp-cuck) is better
>anon proves again how retarded he really is

>>96879381
>>96879333
>waaah people are religious for logical reasons

r/atheism is a century old position to have in this day and age you faggot. Fuck off Aaron Dempski.

>>96882377
>t. faggot of Slaanesh

>>96857701
>>96857733
We know what Necare was. He was an Sorcerer who willingly stripped himself of Humanity for power. Overlords of Barbarus were all Humans in the past, they just wanted better than Humanity. The Xenos stuff is Imperium being stupid and lacking any actual knowledge on Barbarus and it's history.

>>96863619
beautiful, quote-worthy!

nothing sells better than Primarch drama so you are out of your mind if you think they would ever consider this

>>96861717
>A big series focusing on xenos and without space marine representation
It will never happen

>>96851066 (OP)
While I haven't read all the novels, what I have read, is fine. I think the hate comes from retards who hate how popular 40k is, because this site is infected with hipsters who think popular=bad.

>>96874215
Them being only kids was never canon. They'd put it right next to a picture of clearly grown men with bulging muscles labelled as aspirants.

>>96874215
And plenty of chapters take only adults, lorelet. Maybe you should cruise by a fucking wiki and remind yourself how Blood Angel initiation works.

>>96851066 (OP)
>Don't give over all of your critical faculties to people in power, no matter how admirable those people may appear to be. Beneath the hero's facade you will find a human being who makes human mistakes. Enormous problems arise when human mistakes are made on the grand scale available to a superhero. And sometimes you run into another problem. It is demonstrable that power structures tend to attract people who want power for the sake of power and that a significant proportion of such people are imbalanced — in a word, insane. - Frank Herbert

The primarchs are retards because that's the fucking point. Stop worshiping super people.

>>96889007
>Them being only kids was never canon.
It's amazing to me how confidently wrong a stupid motherfucker can be
>>96889093
>And plenty of chapters take only adults, lorelet.
lolnope
>Maybe you should cruise by a fucking wiki and remind yourself how Blood Angel initiation works.
You mean the induction ritual where they explicitly start out as children before they drink from the chalice and get the geneseed implanted, you stupid nogames lorelet?

>>96890366
>It's amazing to me how confidently wrong a stupid motherfucker can be
Behold, a child seeking to become a space marine. I bet he hasn't even started shaving yet!

>Over 170+ replies
>Not a single mini posted
Why care about a game that you don't even play?

>>96868638
Magnus's reasoning was more in the moment
>Arggggh there are WOLVES on my Porch, Dad why did you send these horrible WOLVES? Why are you letting them break my things?

Any reasoning for Magnus to turn traitor would have been made up after the events that led to him turning traitor. Before that point he was still trying to be loyal and trying to prove his argument to the Emperor ('If I warn the Emperor of Horus' betrayal through AWESOME Sorcery then truly he will understand that actually Sorcery really is awesome and cool!')

>>96868638
Curze
>IF I CAN CRAZY THEN WILL YOU STILL CALL ME SUPERMAN?!

>>96863637
That argument is silly because it's not like the emperor ever needed a reason to purge a worlds leadership before. Just say the nucerians were slightly outside his accepted genetic norm and they had to be killed as mutants.

>>96851066 (OP)
Primarchs make some sense if you take it they have extremely high raw IQ but reasonably normal human emotions. If you were like a hundred times "smarter" than basically everyone you ever met, and were strong enough to kill them by blinking, plus you're immortal, all else being equal you would tend to be profoundly emotionally immature and prone to tantrums when you cant get your way no matter how many of your advantages you apply to the situation

The whole father complex can be interpreted in light of the fact that there are about 20 people alive who are on your level, you don't really like half of them, and one guy is above your level. It might make sense to seek out some kind of guidance and validation from him because nobody else is in a position to give you anything like that

This plays out in the fact that the most well rounded and emotionally stable primarchs tended to have really good relationships with humans. Guilliman fully embraces a human as his father who he knows he learned a lot from-doesn't discount humans as being able to be on his level in certain ways, excellent emotional management skills, self sacrificing, all round probably the best Primarch. Corax leads a grassroots rebellion relying on close personal relationships with regular humans, where he relies on them-one of the saner and nicer Primarchs

Angron specifically doesn't have a "bad father" complex with the Emperor because he doesn't really see the Emperor as a father. He had one of these good, elevating backstories and it just ended in tragedy. He's a would be well rounded Primarch where it all went wrong

The craziest, worst, most father complexed Primarchs tend to have terrible foster parents or environments, or at least they failed to form deep, respectful relationships with humans, and generally took over their home planets in a manner that was more about seizing command, often violently, placing themselves immediately above people, and imperiously giving orders downwards

>>96889870
>t. Frank Herbert fanggot
The absolute state of fiction. Now I get why each new IP, film, book, etc. is even gayer and lamer than the previous one.

>>power structures tend to attract people who want power for the sake of power
No shit Sherlock, that is why so cool.
Complaining about that is like complaining that a Michael Bay's movie is 90% explosions. THAT is the reason why people like Bay's movies.

>>96890688
>Primarchs make some sense if you take it they have extremely high raw IQ but reasonably normal human emotions.
I understand that, my problem is it does NOT fits The Emperor's logic.
Why the "CEO of scientism" would want superkids with 0 emotional maturity?
What 40k tell us with this nonsense is that all those centuries, even millennia The Emperor was developing his plans for Mankind, the Imperium and the Primarchs; He never thought about a way to surpressing, controlling or reducing the negative emotions, thoughts, etc, of supermen that will face horrors beyond their comprehension, really?

>>96891925
Not the anon, but the issue is that the emotional maturity isn't exactly something you can implant, because it's formed by your life experiences. The idea that a bunch of supergeniuses with perfect innate mental capabilities would fail to develop proper emotional maturity when raised in shit conditions and without good role models makes perfect sense. In fact, you could argue that their perfected brains ended up working against some of the primarchs precisely because they ensured that they could brute force a lot of the issues in their lives via their raw brilliance and talent. Basically, 2/3rd of the reason why Perturabo ended up as such a mess was because he was genuinely better than people around him and could brute force his position in their society via his sheer competence and innate brilliance, instead of having to learn how to actually interact with others as his peers.

>>96891925
>Why the "CEO of scientism" would want superkids with 0 emotional maturity?
Because among other things, that made them predictable and able to be manipulated.
They weren't really made to think, but to act. That's how they conquered the galaxy in barely 200 years.

You're thinking about this backwards. Their fall into Chaos was also baked in the lore 40+ years ago, so they also needed to be psychologically vulnerable to it. And that's how it has been justified.

It's like asking why in LOTR the Fellowshipplan to get rid of the Ring was so retarded. You're the idiot for missing the point of the story

>>96892016
The Fellowship is genuinely justified in-universe though. I get your point but they literally are the only way. Sauron flat out has better and bigger armies and will crush them in a direct confrontation, a smaller and more discreet group that can move the Ring behind enemy lines is the best way to go about with it.

>>96890426
>his source is a fucking comic
lmfao
>>96890453
What I gave is Magnus's long term justification for turning traitor. Even now, his great plan is to rebuild Prospero in the Eye of Terror by gathering as many psykers as he can and teaching them how to wield their gifts so they can seize their destiny and become the next stage of human evolution.

>>96890426
Given that genetic modification was common before the fall of humanity, I wouldn't be surprised if the children of this world look like bodybuilders.

>>96891925
>Why the "CEO of scientism" would want superkids with 0 emotional maturity?
He did want to raise them personally, even building rooms for each of them in the palace, but Erda sent the primarch babies into space after losing custody in the divorce.

>>96892016
Kinda funny how Guilliman completely blows his logic out of the water, arguably the single most effective primarch of them all and he's almost the polar opposite to what that guy is describing.

>>96892464
Guilliman was fortunate to be the only primarch with a proper human dad and mom to raise and guide him.
Still, he has behaved like a ragetard more than once

>>96892464
Girlyman had a comfortable upbringing by reasonable parents who taught him how interacting with other people works and a world that wasn't a hellhole.
Note: Perturabo also had all of that but was built different (built wrong)

>>96892464
Guilliman landed on the good father figure planet and came out too good. He's like the anti-traitor in that instead of rebelling at the worst possible time to ruin everything, if the Emperor had won he'd have had about 500 years to prove he was making everything fantastic before Guilliman launches a sensible rebellion to overthrow him.

What pisses me off the most about Space Marine atheism is they don't have anything to offer in replacement to religion other than 'muh reason', as if that in and of itself was truth. There's no discussion of non-theological philosophy, just 'muh reason'. Ultimately all atheism in 40k becomes is "I really hate my dad for taking me to church, I'd never do that to my kids and would never ever tell them what to think" and then a surprise pikachu when the kids start turning to fundie christianity or worshipping trees. Or the Emperor and Chaos in this case.
If the Space Marines practiced some sort of secular civil religion that defined their overall culture, I wouldn't have this complaint.

>>96892601
What are you talking about? Perturabo's adoptive father only saw him as a weapon of conquest.

>>96892693
>Space Marine atheism
doesn't exist in 40k, and it was barely a thing in 30k. The "Imperial Truth" was the official ideology of the early Imperium but many did not believe it.
>If the Space Marines practiced some sort of secular civil religion that defined their overall culture
they do, even the UM, and some of them are pretty much strong believers (like Titus from the SM videogames)

You should get the lore from the source material instead of parroting retarded social media memes

>>96892711
Perturabo's father lavished him with praise, tutors and privilege. He was his heir and was expected to advance his faction's cause once he took the throne but that's to be expected- what was he supposed to do, change all of reality by himself?

>>96892693
You know that most Space Marines worship the Emperor, not as a god, but as the greatest man who ever lived, lord of humanity, and a perfect being who never makes mistakes? (Basically, they worship him as a god in every sense except name.)
Then there are the chapters that do believe in the God Emperor, who do basically the same thing, but with a few more rituals and prayers.

>>96892711
>>96892766
HIs foster father didn't help, but Perty was pretty much always an uppity asshole in denial.
There's also the fact that he could see the Eye of Terror with his naked eyes, and he felt observd in return. That became an insidious influence that made him paranoid.

>>96857678
gender swaps are boring

>>96892210
The warhammer comics are actually the only thing that's canon. Everything that contradicts them is wrong.
>>96892243
Doesn't it obviously defeat the point if they're having puberty way, way earlier?

>>96891848
Just go fucking read Marvel then.

>>96895393
>Doesn't it obviously defeat the point if they're having puberty way, way earlier?
Who said those children went through puberty?

>>96896863
The beards, perhaps.